Monk Changes - How about some?

[mr23sgte]

<p>Monks are still pretty much last place as fighters in tanking and utility. Are we going to see anymore changes to the EOF or SF AA's?</p><p>Or will this be another expansion of sucking?????????</p>

[Aull]

<p>Personally so far I am pleased with my monk. Survivability is better and that to me is a must. Tsunami at 20sec coupled with strikethrough immunity in defensive are massive improvements. Picking up aggro is easy at least single target atm. </p><p>Aoe is better than before. Sure crusaders are still kicking in aoe and brawlers will never be better there. I don't think zerkers are as good aoe as crusaders are either, but I will get to logging in my zerker one day in the near future for a better compairson. Anyway I am enjoying the improvements to the wis line.</p><p>Manits bolt, flurry, and crane twirl are big improvements for my monks dps too. I didn't really expect to see any dps improvements for brawlers this xpac.</p><p>Utility does need boosting. My bruiser has seen very good improvements utility wise and this was something that I was never for to begin with since I knew that giving bruisers better utility would be infringing on what made monks special in compairson to bruisers.</p><p>Over all I am very pleased with my monk. So far. It is still very early in this xpac so more time will tell.</p>

[mr23sgte]

<p>Yeah it's better, but I stick with my statment.</p>

[circusgirl]

<p>Enhance: Tranquil Vision and Mongoose Stance in the EoF line desperately need to be changed.  Or hell--I'd even prefer they be deleted entirely compared to what they are now, as things currently stand we have to waste 3 AAs to get down to dragonfire.</p><p>Enhance: Tranquil Vision is an issue as the best use of TV is to put it on the MT while we OT.  This is a problem however since it causes us to shed hate.  I would prefer this to be changed to something that increases the utility of tranquil vision.</p><p>Mongoose Stance is pointless--we're tanks, we don't need a detaunt.  Put in anything else!</p>

[Aull]

<p>Good points Vinka. I most certainly agree that monks are tanks and the detaunt in our aa's should not be there.</p>

[Xanrn]

<p>I disagree I use Mongoose stance alot.</p><p>We maybe Tanks but we are not always tanking, I spend the vast majority of times on raid dpsing and with mongoose stance I don't need a dehate buff from someone else, well most of the time anyway.</p><p>I also dps in guild groups sometimes and though ripping aggro on heroics doesn't leave me 1 shotted dead, I'd prefer to leave it on the main Tank.</p><p>Utility is the main problem, though I wouldn't increased proc chance/dmg on the Wis tree and I still say the flurry should be pushed to 8, because I hate paying 1 point for less than 1 percent.</p><p>We need another group buff and our raid buff needs to be buffed.</p><p>10.4% casting speed is isn't much anymore and 26 haste is about half what T9 fabled give.</p>

[Aull]

<p>Correct me if I am wrong but I thought that flurry is 8% maxxed at 10 points spent. 0.8 x 10 = 8. I might be missing something though.</p><p>Group fd should be changed something useful as well.</p>

[Couching]

<p><cite>Ummudien@Guk wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I disagree I use Mongoose stance alot.</p><p>We maybe Tanks but we are not always tanking, I spend the vast majority of times on raid dpsing and with mongoose stance I don't need a dehate buff from someone else, well most of the time anyway.</p><p>I also dps in guild groups sometimes and though ripping aggro on heroics doesn't leave me 1 shotted dead, I'd prefer to leave it on the main Tank.</p><p>Utility is the main problem, though I wouldn't increased proc chance/dmg on the Wis tree and I still say the flurry should be pushed to 8, because I hate paying 1 point for less than 1 percent.</p><p>We need another group buff and our raid buff needs to be buffed.</p><p>10.4% casting speed is isn't much anymore and 26 haste is about half what T9 fabled give.</p></blockquote><p>Mongoose is only about 100-200 dehate/sec. Comparing to our dps, it's nothing.</p><p>No offense here, if your MT can't hold aggro off you without mongoose, replace him because he won't be able to hold aggro off real dpsers as well. Same situation in the heroic group.</p><p>Mongoose is junk. It is not only because we are tank and we shouldn't get detaunt but it is also inefficient even if you really need it, i.e, group/raid tank sucks and can't hold aggro.</p><p>Remove Mongoose or make it efficient as dragon rage. Personally, I would like to remove it instead of making it efficient.</p>

[Silzin]

<p>I have wanted <span >Mongoose stance to be, when activated it changes dragon rage into a equol </span><span >detaun.</span></p>

[Blu]

<p>I'm still not happy with where we are as tanks. I do a lot of PUGs, and despite our improvements in SF, I still can't just join a group that is "looking for tank then g2g".</p><p>So, I'm sticking with dps spec/gear for a while longer. I know that we don't have the best potential in that area, but for most PUGs I'm better than average for it with gear/AAs (and the SF new/improved dps AAs help also).</p><p>Even from a DPS perspective, I agree that Mongoose Stance and Tranquil Vision enhancer are mostly useless.</p><p>Mongoose Stance proc amount is lame. Anecdotally, I haven't noticed it doing anything for keeping aggro off me. To be useful, it will need to proc for a lot more and more often.</p><p>Like all conditional taunt/detaunt abilities, Tranquil Vision AA is fail. Vinka mentions the problems for tanking. For dps, if (for whatever reason) the tank doesn't want TV, I can't use it on anyone else b/c it will give me more aggro. So this one is horrible all the way around.</p><p>The extra fail part is to take evade check (which I could actually use for a dps spec), I either have to cap both of these horrible AAs, or else take taunt-increasing AAs. So, choice is between bad and worse.</p>

[Blu]

<p><cite>Aull wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Correct me if I am wrong but I thought that flurry is 8% maxxed at 10 points spent. 0.8 x 10 = 8. I might be missing something though.</p><p>Group fd should be changed something useful as well.</p></blockquote><p>We only get to put 8 pts in the SF abilities.</p><p>Group FD is not something that I use often, but I do use it now and again to good effect. I suppose it is pretty pointless for raids.</p>

[Aull]

<p>Thanks for clearing that up for me. I didn't know that.</p>

[Siatfallen]

<p>Mongoose stance and Enhance: Tranquil Vision used to be useful abilities.Brawlers produce a lot of aggro for the damage they deal, making keeping aggro off us a real problem at times - I used both of these in EoF (the added aggro to the MT was a nice bonus) - for a DPS spec, but that's what I did far and away most of the time.</p><p>Today, it serves no purpose, since any decent tank should be able to keep aggro off us if we're not trying to take it. They've moved us further away from being a DPS class than ever before. As a consequence, it's about time they got rid of these AAs, and gave us something useful instead.</p>

[circusgirl]

<p>Xerq makes an excellent point about Evade check--this endline is clearly a dps-oriented ability, and yet it is nearly impossible to get it without putting points in tanking abilities.  The "Awareness" type abilities are mostly taunts, tranquil vision (not only useless but frequently actually <strong>harmful</strong>) and mongoose stance (which is entirely useless).  I can imagine Evade check being decent if you're one of the few monks out there that still considers themselves dps for whatever reason, but even for that subsect of the monk population it's counterproductive to try to get it since it involves going through taunts to get there.  Don't get me wrong--I put points in my taunts.  But then again, I'm doing so to help me tank, not to help me get a positional detaunt.  </p><p>Basically the issues with the monk lines are as follows:</p><p><ol><li>Hate Transfer on Enhance: Tranquil Vision is counterproductive under many circumstances, and many monks are forced to get it anyway in order to get to the good AA beneath it.</li><li>Mongoose stance is useless.  A)We're tanks and don't need detaunts and B)even if you want to detaunt for whatever reason the amount is too small to be useful.</li><li>Evade check, an ability that is clearly designed for dps monks, can only be gotten by putting points into taunts first.  It does not make sense to have to <strong>increase</strong> your hate generation in order to <strong>decrease</strong> your hate generation!</li></ol><div></div><div>Tranquil Vision is a very, very important monk ability, especially for those of us who raid.  I'd say for me its the single most important ability except maybe tsunami.  I would really like to see this changed to increase the % chance of avoiding a blow for our target, along the lines of the new shake-off AA for bruisers, or something different but also useful for the tank.  Good options would be things that increase the defensive capabilities of either the monk caster or our target.  How about more mitigation for the monk when we cast it?  You could make it really creative and have it be a sort of two-way transfer of defense, where the AA could give us mitigation based on the target's mit value (increase our mitigation by 1% of theirs per point, for example, so if they had 10,000 mit we would get 100 mitigation per point).</div><div></div><div>Mongoose stance needs to either be upgraded to be as good of a detaunt as dragon stance is a taunt, or it needs to be deleted and replaced with something entirely different.</div><div></div><div>I would like to see Evade check turned into something that would be useful either for a dps monk OR for a tank monk: for example, a passive ability that grants +10 hate gain if dragon stance is active, -10 hate gain if dragon stance is not active.  </div></p>

[Aull]

<p><cite>Vinka@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Xerq makes an excellent point about Evade check--this endline is clearly a dps-oriented ability, and yet it is nearly impossible to get it without putting points in tanking abilities.  The "Awareness" type abilities are mostly taunts, tranquil vision (not only useless but frequently actually <strong>harmful</strong>) and mongoose stance (which is entirely useless).  I can imagine Evade check being decent if you're one of the few monks out there that still considers themselves dps for whatever reason, but even for that subsect of the monk population it's counterproductive to try to get it since it involves going through taunts to get there.  Don't get me wrong--I put points in my taunts.  But then again, I'm doing so to help me tank, not to help me get a positional detaunt.  </p><p>Basically the issues with the monk lines are as follows:</p><p><ol><li>Hate Transfer on Enhance: Tranquil Vision is counterproductive under many circumstances, and many monks are forced to get it anyway in order to get to the good AA beneath it.</li><li>Mongoose stance is useless.  A)We're tanks and don't need detaunts and B)even if you want to detaunt for whatever reason the amount is too small to be useful.</li><li>Evade check, an ability that is clearly designed for dps monks, can only be gotten by putting points into taunts first.  It does not make sense to have to <strong>increase</strong> your hate generation in order to <strong>decrease</strong> your hate generation!</li></ol><div></div><div>Tranquil Vision is a very, very important monk ability, especially for those of us who raid.  I'd say for me its the single most important ability except maybe tsunami.  I would really like to see this changed to increase the % chance of avoiding a blow for our target, along the lines of the new shake-off AA for bruisers, or something different but also useful for the tank.  Good options would be things that increase the defensive capabilities of either the monk caster or our target.  How about more mitigation for the monk when we cast it?  You could make it really creative and have it be a sort of two-way transfer of defense, where the AA could give us mitigation based on the target's mit value (increase our mitigation by 1% of theirs per point, for example, so if they had 10,000 mit we would get 100 mitigation per point).</div><div></div><div>Mongoose stance needs to either be upgraded to be as good of a detaunt as dragon stance is a taunt, or <span style="color: #00ff00; font-size: small;"><strong>it needs to be deleted and replaced with something entirely different</strong></span>.</div><div></div><div>I would like to see Evade check turned into something that would be useful either for a dps monk OR for a tank monk: for example, a passive ability that grants +10 hate gain if dragon stance is active, -10 hate gain if dragon stance is not active.  </div></p></blockquote><p>Excellent post!</p><p>I wish that mongoose stance would be deleted and replaced with something that is beneficial. Could make it a utility that allows the recipient (fighter class only or self) the ability to proc 30% chance threat if recipient is hit and/or procs on a successful block/parry as well. This could go hand in hand for a monk who wishes not to tank and with Vinka's idea with evade check would really be nice. It could go either way for a tanking monk or non tanking monk.</p><p>Many monks that believe they are strickly dps are mistaken. Other fighters are capable of dishing out just as much dps as a monk can yet are still considered tanks and they have better utility than the monk. Monks need some more utility.</p>

[Minoko]

<p>I agree with those proposed changes too. The changes made this expansion were good but I think more is need especially to dispell the current attitude towards the class. Just the other day I offered to off tank something and got laughed at but I know I could have done a good job at it. It's that attitude more than the state of the class that bothers me.</p><p>I'm hoping it will get better when I fill in some more aa too. As for Tranquil Vision, half the time I find I can't even cast it on another tank because their buffs overwrite it or something.</p>

[circusgirl]

<p>Regarding Tranquil Vision and other tanks...</p><p>All tanks have some sort of avoidance buff.  Ours happens to be the second best in game (just after bruisers).  However, you cannot both cast yours on someone AND have someone cast theirs on you.  If your TV is being overwritten, it is because the other tank is casting his avoidance buff on someone else in the group.  <strong>Tell him to stop doing that.</strong>  Many tanks that are new or don't raid or never group with other tanks just aren't aware that there exists this uber buff that cuts incoming damage on them by 20-50%.  They just cast their buffs like they always do, not realizing that it is much, much better for them to be on the receiving end.  </p><p>Honestly, taking a solid brawler along in a group is oftentimes about as good for the MT's survivability as bringing an extra healer (though of course, we don't cure or do anything for the rest of the group).  If folks don't know this, inform them.</p>

[Blu]

<p><cite>Aull wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Many monks that believe they are strickly dps are mistaken. Other fighters are capable of dishing out just as much dps as a monk can yet are still considered tanks and they have better utility than the monk. Monks need some more utility.</p></blockquote><p>I agree about utility.</p><p>I know that we are not strictly dps, nor even particularly good at it compared to real dps classes. However for me, it's still the path of least resistance to playing a monk in PUGs.</p><p>For PUG tanking, I have to make my own group to guarantee success, and I have to depend on getting some specific classes (Dirge at minimum) which may entail a bit of a wait. If I try to join an existing group, there's a good chance the group will be setup in a way that it will be difficult to succeed with me tanking. So before joining an existing group, I have to question the group's makeup. Even if the group makeup turns out ok, they may have found another tank who didn't need to ask the questions by the time I get those answers.</p><p>For PUG dps, I just respond to posts in 80-89 chat with: x - x melee dps unbuffed. And the group leader can decide whether that's acceptable. Often it is and I receive an invite. I don't even bother to say that I'm a monk.</p><p>Seemingly less of my game time is wasted when I go the dps route, so that's what I do.</p>

[circusgirl]

<p>Any class can dps if they want to.  A defiler could dps if he decided thats what he wanted to do.</p><p>They just wouldn't do it well.</p><p>The issue with people calling us "dps" or "utility" is that we are pretty middle of the road for tanks in terms of dps on most encounters, and what they call "utility" tends to be what we call "holding aggro and not dieing" or "tanking."  Can we join a group and dps if we want to?  Sure!  So could a shadowknight, zerker, bruiser, or paladin.  DPS is all well and good, but its not enough to justify not being able to perform our core role well.</p>

[Couching]

<p><cite>Xerq@Crushbone wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>For PUG tanking, I have to make my own group to guarantee success, and I have to depend on getting some specific classes (Dirge at minimum) which may entail a bit of a wait. If I try to join an existing group, there's a good chance the group will be setup in a way that it will be difficult to succeed with me tanking. So before joining an existing group, I have to question the group's makeup. Even if the group makeup turns out ok, they may have found another tank who didn't need to ask the questions by the time I get those answers.</p><p>For PUG dps, I just respond to posts in 80-89 chat with: x - x melee dps unbuffed. And the group leader can decide whether that's acceptable. Often it is and I receive an invite. I don't even bother to say that I'm a monk.</p><p>Seemingly less of my game time is wasted when I go the dps route, so that's what I do.</p></blockquote><p>Tanking heroic instance is a joke in SF.</p><p>Even rogue can tank most heroic instances with 1 healer without problem. Last night, I was crashed on last named in Spirit's resonance. After I logged back, swashy in the group was tanking named with a fury solo heal without problem. In fact, they were holding their dps and waiting for me for the kill update.</p><p>From the point of survivability, every fighter is far enough for heroic instances. The only difference is aggro management.</p>

[Blu]

<p><cite>Couching@Crushbone wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Xerq@Crushbone wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>For PUG tanking, I have to make my own group to guarantee success, and I have to depend on getting some specific classes (Dirge at minimum) which may entail a bit of a wait. If I try to join an existing group, there's a good chance the group will be setup in a way that it will be difficult to succeed with me tanking. So before joining an existing group, I have to question the group's makeup. Even if the group makeup turns out ok, they may have found another tank who didn't need to ask the questions by the time I get those answers.</p><p>For PUG dps, I just respond to posts in 80-89 chat with: x - x melee dps unbuffed. And the group leader can decide whether that's acceptable. Often it is and I receive an invite. I don't even bother to say that I'm a monk.</p><p>Seemingly less of my game time is wasted when I go the dps route, so that's what I do.</p></blockquote><p>Tanking heroic instance is a joke in SF.</p><p>Even rogue can tank most heroic instances with 1 healer without problem. Last night, I was crashed on last named in Spirit's resonance. After I logged back, swashy in the group was tanking named with a fury solo heal without problem. In fact, they were holding their dps and waiting for me for the kill update.</p><p>From the point of survivability, every fighter is far enough for heroic instances. The only difference is aggro management.</p></blockquote><p>Yep. I didn't say that survivability was a problem. The one class I mentioned needing, dirge, obviously implies aggro management.</p><p>This is more a commentary on our class from the perspective of PUGs. If you have a regular group you run around with, that's awesome... you probably don't have the same frustrations.</p>

[Blu]

<p><cite>Vinka@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Any class can dps if they want to.  A defiler could dps if he decided thats what he wanted to do.</p><p>They just wouldn't do it well.</p><p>The issue with people calling us "dps" or "utility" is that we are pretty middle of the road for tanks in terms of dps on most encounters, and what they call "utility" tends to be what we call "holding aggro and not dieing" or "tanking."  Can we join a group and dps if we want to?  Sure!  So could a shadowknight, zerker, bruiser, or paladin.  DPS is all well and good, but its not enough to justify not being able to perform our core role well.</p></blockquote><p>Assuming you are responding to me...</p><p>A defiler dpsing seems a rather extreme comparison, considering we are in the fighter forum in a thread about monks (or brawlers).</p><p>I can't speculate as to what other people mean by utility.  To me, holding aggro and not dying is tanking, not utility. Our points of utility seem to be our rw buff and our avoidance buff. Our rw is pretty marginal anymore. Other tanks have avoid buffs, albeit not as good as ours. Therefore we have a bare minimum of utility.</p><p>I concede that brawlers have comparatively mediocre dps even among fighters, and that simply having more dps is still no consolation prize for lagging behind in the tank department.</p><p>However, my comments (except agreeing about needing more utility) weren't concerned with the ideal or where the class should be headed. They are concerned with dealing with the here and the now of what we have, and more specifically my situation of running PUGs a lot. If you're not stuck with PUGs, then feel free to ignore my comments related to them.</p>

[Couching]

<p><cite>Xerq@Crushbone wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Couching@Crushbone wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Xerq@Crushbone wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>For PUG tanking, I have to make my own group to guarantee success, and I have to depend on getting some specific classes (Dirge at minimum) which may entail a bit of a wait. If I try to join an existing group, there's a good chance the group will be setup in a way that it will be difficult to succeed with me tanking. So before joining an existing group, I have to question the group's makeup. Even if the group makeup turns out ok, they may have found another tank who didn't need to ask the questions by the time I get those answers.</p><p>For PUG dps, I just respond to posts in 80-89 chat with: x - x melee dps unbuffed. And the group leader can decide whether that's acceptable. Often it is and I receive an invite. I don't even bother to say that I'm a monk.</p><p>Seemingly less of my game time is wasted when I go the dps route, so that's what I do.</p></blockquote><p>Tanking heroic instance is a joke in SF.</p><p>Even rogue can tank most heroic instances with 1 healer without problem. Last night, I was crashed on last named in Spirit's resonance. After I logged back, swashy in the group was tanking named with a fury solo heal without problem. In fact, they were holding their dps and waiting for me for the kill update.</p><p>From the point of survivability, every fighter is far enough for heroic instances. The only difference is aggro management.</p></blockquote><p>Yep. I didn't say that survivability was a problem. The one class I mentioned needing, dirge, obviously implies aggro management.</p><p>This is more a commentary on our class from the perspective of PUGs. If you have a regular group you run around with, that's awesome... you probably don't have the same frustrations.</p></blockquote><p>I don't have a regular group and I have done a lot of pick up groups without a dirge. I don't have problem on aggro in most cases. Occasionally, dpsers with raid gear would get aggro on trash and it's not a big deal at all because mobs hit like a girl. As long as there is a healer in the group, nothing to worry.</p><p>If you can hold aggro on named off your mages, you are fine in a pick up group as tank.</p><p>It's their loose if they refuse to invite a monk as group tank. It's also their loose to invite a monk to play a dps role instead of a real dpser.</p>

[Blu]

<p><cite>Couching@Crushbone wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I don't have a regular group and I have done a lot of pick up groups without a dirge. I don't have problem on aggro in most cases. Occasionally, dpsers with raid gear would get aggro on trash and it's not a big deal at all because mobs hit like a girl. As long as there is a healer in the group, nothing to worry.</p><p>If you can hold aggro on named off your mages, you are fine in a pick up group as tank.</p><p>It's their loose if they refuse to invite a monk as group tank. It's also their loose to invite a monk to play a dps role instead of a real dpser.</p></blockquote><p>Fair enough.</p><p>The other day I got invited to tank a Cella group, When I got in group, classes were something like: troub, wiz/lock, fury, illy, and one other. I ran from that one tbh. I haven't tanked Cella yet either, so that woulda been ultimate fail.</p>

[Lethe5683]

<p><span style="color: #993366;">Brawlers are better than they were in TSO of course, but compared to what guardians and paladins got brawlers are now even worse relative to guards and paladins and to a lesser extent SKs and Zerkers.</span></p>

[Eugam]

<p>I case you guys dont know... the wardens are your best friends in heroic instances now <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>We bring hate, mitigation, HP, AGI and a damage blocker similar to Tsunami for when the mobs hit through avoidance. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

[NamaeZero]

<p>Personally, I'd like to see every single one of the instant/10-20 second duration abilities (Superior Guard, Inner Focus, Brawler's Tenacity, Mediative Focus, etc.) we have to either prevent death or damage >X% revised. I'm not psychic, but I'd need to be to make these useful.</p><p>It's bad design to require two very uncommon situations (extremely short ability activation and massive damage/death) to occur simultaneously and expect a player to guess in advance without being given a clue. It's either woefully underpowered, or massively overpowered if you figure out a trick to abuse the protection, like jousting.</p><p>Also, please look at Combination. It's poorly documented and doesn't work like it says it does since there is no direct correspondance between what's a Punch, Jab, or Kick (The HO icons are often wrong.) It's also massively subject to lag, because the time is incredibly short for requiring four different clicks. Though the attack itself can't miss, any of the three previous attacks might so the bonus damage is rarely worth the effort. There is no reason it couldn't be coded to go off automatically, and that alone would make it worthwhile.</p>

[circusgirl]

<p><cite>Xerq@Crushbone wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Vinka@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Any class can dps if they want to.  A defiler could dps if he decided thats what he wanted to do.</p><p>They just wouldn't do it well.</p><p>The issue with people calling us "dps" or "utility" is that we are pretty middle of the road for tanks in terms of dps on most encounters, and what they call "utility" tends to be what we call "holding aggro and not dieing" or "tanking."  Can we join a group and dps if we want to?  Sure!  So could a shadowknight, zerker, bruiser, or paladin.  DPS is all well and good, but its not enough to justify not being able to perform our core role well.</p></blockquote><p>Assuming you are responding to me...</p><p>A defiler dpsing seems a rather extreme comparison, considering we are in the fighter forum in a thread about monks (or brawlers).</p><p>I can't speculate as to what other people mean by utility.  To me, holding aggro and not dying is tanking, not utility. Our points of utility seem to be our rw buff and our avoidance buff. Our rw is pretty marginal anymore. Other tanks have avoid buffs, albeit not as good as ours. Therefore we have a bare minimum of utility.</p><p>I concede that brawlers have comparatively mediocre dps even among fighters, and that simply having more dps is still no consolation prize for lagging behind in the tank department.</p><p>However, my comments (except agreeing about needing more utility) weren't concerned with the ideal or where the class should be headed. They are concerned with dealing with the here and the now of what we have, and more specifically my situation of running PUGs a lot. If you're not stuck with PUGs, then feel free to ignore my comments related to them.</p></blockquote><p>It wasn't so much a response to you as it was to those individuals that like to say things like "Brawlers are <strong>utility</strong> tanks--you have the ability to snap a mob and tank them for a short duration when the MT goes down."  Tanking is a core function of the class, and its ludicrous for people to pretend that us being able to do what every other tank does already counts as "utility."  Likewise with those that justify having less survivability by saying we have more dps, when in reality we're pretty middle of the road dps-wise.</p>

[Couching]

<p>I can't understand as well why tanking raid mobs is an<em> utility</em> for brawlers.</p>

[Megavolt]

<p>TBH, I think TV should be changed to go in line with dragon rage that when dragon rage is active a succesful avoid by the monk on the target of TV will gain a hate position on the monk, and when inactive a successful avoid by the monk on the target drops a hate position. That way hate control for an OTing monk becomes an active balancing act of turning on and off dragon rage to hold that secondary spot, an MTing monk allows us to deal with problem child dpsers while keeping it on, and a dps monk gets to keep it off so he doesn't build himself high. There is no straight arrow build for monks, so making TV a not so straight arrow way to deal with hate would probably be right on.</p><p>Honestly I like mongoose stance. I liked it more in the killed off fighter revamps (yay proc increaser)</p><p>D-fist needs to be brought in line with Death Touch.</p><p>Need a bit more worn armor effectiveness on the last defensive stance.</p><p>Need a dps increase or potency on offensive stance. There's no reason to use it over midstance now with haste caps.</p><p>Increase flurry to 1% per point. 6% is barely noticeable. Mantis bolt and crane twirl each do more dps than my flurried attacks do.</p><p>Meditative healing still needs a boost.</p><p>Where's the mit increasers on our armor? I see plenty on the charms and jewelry items that all fighters can use, but on the armor pieces for brawlers this expansion they've been dropped off.</p><p>Now, I'm just confused with the weapons. Are we 2.5 delay or 4.0 delay? Will you please make up your mind and put out one? We have some nice 4.0 offhanders accessible in early SF, but since the nerfing of Jojo's, nothing to replace the myth until high end raiding for main hand. Jojo's wasn't even an upgrade when it came out, but a nice sidestep until we found better offhanders.</p><p>I      still      don't       see       NUNCHUCKS!!</p>

[Couching]

<p><cite>Xerq@Crushbone wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Couching@Crushbone wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I don't have a regular group and I have done a lot of pick up groups without a dirge. I don't have problem on aggro in most cases. Occasionally, dpsers with raid gear would get aggro on trash and it's not a big deal at all because mobs hit like a girl. As long as there is a healer in the group, nothing to worry.</p><p>If you can hold aggro on named off your mages, you are fine in a pick up group as tank.</p><p>It's their loose if they refuse to invite a monk as group tank. It's also their loose to invite a monk to play a dps role instead of a real dpser.</p></blockquote><p>Fair enough.</p><p>The other day I got invited to tank a Cella group, When I got in group, classes were something like: troub, wiz/lock, fury, illy, and one other. I ran from that one tbh. I haven't tanked Cella yet either, so that woulda been ultimate fail.</p></blockquote><p>I didn't have a chance to get in a group in such setup until today because I always make group by myself instead of joining premade group.</p><p>I joined a group for Cella today and the group setup is wizard, conj, troub, fury, templar and me. I didn't know the group setup until I joined. Conj did 27k zw and wiz did 22k zw. No aggro issue at all.</p><p>In this xpac, aggro and survivability in heroic instances is so trivial for every fighter. The real complain I have is our dps vs aoe tanks.</p>

[Blu]

<p><cite>Couching@Crushbone wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Xerq@Crushbone wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Couching@Crushbone wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I don't have a regular group and I have done a lot of pick up groups without a dirge. I don't have problem on aggro in most cases. Occasionally, dpsers with raid gear would get aggro on trash and it's not a big deal at all because mobs hit like a girl. As long as there is a healer in the group, nothing to worry.</p><p>If you can hold aggro on named off your mages, you are fine in a pick up group as tank.</p><p>It's their loose if they refuse to invite a monk as group tank. It's also their loose to invite a monk to play a dps role instead of a real dpser.</p></blockquote><p>Fair enough.</p><p>The other day I got invited to tank a Cella group, When I got in group, classes were something like: troub, wiz/lock, fury, illy, and one other. I ran from that one tbh. I haven't tanked Cella yet either, so that woulda been ultimate fail.</p></blockquote><p>I didn't have a chance to get in a group in such setup until today because I always make group by myself instead of joining premade group.</p><p>I joined a group for Cella today and the group setup is wizard, conj, troub, fury, templar and me. I didn't know the group setup until I joined. Conj did 27k zw and wiz did 22k zw. No aggro issue at all.</p><p>In this xpac, aggro and survivability in heroic instances is so trivial for every fighter. The real complain I have is our dps vs aoe tanks.</p></blockquote><p>Well good for you. There's no way I could hold aggro off those people with my gear.</p>

[Rasttan]

<p>Monks generate plenty enough hate with a troub in the group no matter what other classes there are. As for AE dps currently you can adorn more than 1 5% ae attack adorn they do stack, most if not all adorns not class specific stack there effects. And with craneflock alot of AE pulls you can parse close to or better than other tank classes.</p>

[Queen Alexandria]

I heard a rumor that wow is going to have a monk class. I love martial arts which is why I played a monk. Isn't that why all of you played a monk? I mean seriously do you expect an unarmed individual being any better than someone with a sword... or even a gun? Maybe they should give us guns so we can just perform crown shots on every mob in the game.

[NamaeZero]

<p><cite>Zenaide@Mistmoore wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>I heard a rumor that wow is going to have a monk class. I love martial arts which is why I played a monk. Isn't that why all of you played a monk? I mean seriously do you expect an unarmed individual being any better than someone with a sword... or even a gun? Maybe they should give us guns so we can just perform crown shots on every mob in the game.</blockquote><p>Well, from a realism standpoint, YMMV. Personally, having seen how incredibly strong real world large predator animals are, I don't think any amount of mundane medieval armor would save you from a direct blow from a 30' tall dragon's claw or fang.</p><p>So to me, mitigation of the level you see in Norrath can only be because Norrathian armor/weapons/etc. are all very magical. That being the case, why not have a class that channels some of that magic into their fists? Magic can do anything if it's important to the overall story.</p><p>I'm kind of in favor of the Developers just scrapping the whole Avoidance tanking concept, lowering our avoidance to be inline with the plate tanks, and just improving leathers mitigation to plate levels when a Brawler wears it. That way they can itemize the same for all Fighters and not get confused. I'm tired of having to fight to stay even with plate tanks, and sometimes not even being able to achieve that. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" /></p>

[BChizzle]

<p><cite>NamaeZero wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I'm kind of in favor of the Developers just scrapping the whole Avoidance tanking concept, lowering our avoidance to be inline with the plate tanks, and just improving leathers mitigation to plate levels when a Brawler wears it. That way they can itemize the same for all Fighters and not get confused. I'm tired of having to fight to stay even with plate tanks, and sometimes not even being able to achieve that. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" /></p></blockquote><p>TBH, they have already done that.</p>

[mr23sgte]

<p>Anything ever change? I quit several months ago after the expansion launched ..........</p>

[BChizzle]

<p><cite>Hereo@Unrest wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Anything ever change? I quit several months ago after the expansion launched ..........</p></blockquote><p>We haven't had any changes since the launch of the xpac.</p>

[Gilasil]

<p><cite>Zenaide@Mistmoore wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>I heard a rumor that wow is going to have a monk class. I love martial arts which is why I played a monk. Isn't that why all of you played a monk? I mean seriously do you expect an unarmed individual being any better than someone with a sword... or even a gun? Maybe they should give us guns so we can just perform crown shots on every mob in the game.</blockquote><p>Really?  That would be so cool.</p><p>Oh yea, WoW doesn't have Iksar.</p><p>Never mind.</p>

[Dorieon]

<p><cite>Hereo@Unrest wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Anything ever change? I quit several months ago after the expansion launched ..........</p></blockquote><p>You quit too soon. Currently all fighter dps is either op'd or SoE has a new vision for us. Either way, we put out more than solid dps.</p><p>Also with all the +mit gear, raid tanking has become easier for brawlers. Where we struggle at the moment is in agro generation. We can tank for any class in the game excepting a crusader. Warlock is doable, crusader not really loll.</p><p>Overall, things are good for monks atm but not great. But its alot more fun than last xpac imo.</p>

[Shredderr]

<p>Yeah I see alot about how useless mongoose stance is and tbh in pve it is . It might be diff if we out dpsed other fighter classess and some scouts but we dont on average . However in pvp it is excellent I would not want this or evade check taken for the havoc u can cause in pvp . not sure if the mechanics are the same in BG but def dont wanna lose the ability now that we have pvp and such . As far as pve goes well I dont see our dps being as beast as the class was evidently meant to be , to warrant such threat reductions . I just feel maybe like 100 dps stat coupled with the now uneventful haste buff we got when lvl 50 was the cap right ? Or am i mistaken . W/E just up our overalldps on the average to make those deaggros useful is what I'd prefer . I got pallies sending me tells when I shout out for dps class needed . I say no but thx m8 we got a tank ... and the reply is usually thats cool I am dps . And they aint lying , thought that would be the uniqueness of this class of tanks which is why I rolled one . To top it off I think in pvp our taunts are the only ones I believe dont cast annoy in pvp maling us completly useless as a tank in pvp or BG's .Completly worthless if you cant keep a human player from targeting your healer . Monk class is wierd really still trying to figure out what we are supposed to be in this game or if its just we can be either dps or tank just not good at either only adequate .</p>

[circusgirl]

<p>I did some calculations based on the plate tanks in my raid's avoidance in fabled shields.  Wearing the Arc Knight Towershield alone (i.e., no other block chance or avoidance buffs) will give a plate tank 26.3% uncontested block.  Compare this to a monk, who in mastered defensive stance with 5 points in Aversion and the mythical buff has 27% uncontested block.  On the high end, our theoretical avoidance advantage over a plate tank is less than 1%!  This, frankly, is ridiculous.</p><p><strong>Brawlers need to be given a higher minimum deflection chance, preferably in a form that is not tied to our stances.</strong></p>

[steelbadger]

<p><cite>Vinka@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I did some calculations based on the plate tanks in my raid's avoidance in fabled shields.  Wearing the Arc Knight Towershield alone (i.e., no other block chance or avoidance buffs) will give a plate tank 26.3% uncontested block.  Compare this to a monk, who in mastered defensive stance with 5 points in Aversion and the mythical buff has 27% uncontested block.  On the high end, our theoretical avoidance advantage over a plate tank is less than 1%!  This, frankly, is ridiculous.</p><p><strong>Brawlers need to be given a higher minimum deflection chance, preferably in a form that is not tied to our stances.</strong></p></blockquote><p>You've forgotten some bits.</p><p>>24% Brawler only block stat from Leather tanking armour.  10% Brawler only block stat from AAs (16% from Brawler tree vs 12% from Warrior tree and the 6% from the Brawler line in the TSO tree) as well.</p><p>So you don't just have 27% Block.  You have 36% Block.  vs the 26.3% block of the plate tank.</p><p>You cannot choose to ignore block chance on gear for an example like this because that is precisely where Brawlers see an advantage.  You cannot selectively choose to take account of the similar plate tank only Block Chance source (The shield) whilest simultaneously ignoring the Brawler only sources for the stat.</p><p>If we were to actually compare the classes without any +Block Chance whatsoever then:</p><p>The Brawler has 27%</p><p>The Plate has 26.3%/123.3*100=21.3%.</p><p>Oh, yes, and a Brawler needs only 160% to hit 70% uncontesed block while a plate tank (Using the shield you gave in your example) needs to accumulate 226% Block chance to hit that cap.</p><p>A plate tank requires <em>more</em> +Block Chance than a Brawler to hit cap but at the same time <em>can't</em> get access to as much as a brawler can due to gear limitations.  This is how it should be.</p><p>So, tell me, your tank probably has somewhere in the region of 40% Uncontested Block, assuming good gear (Maybe slightly more if they're a Crusader).  How much Uncontested Block do you have?</p><p>Oh, and how much strikethrough immunity does the plate tank have?</p><p>If Monks needs something then it's an alteration of perceptions...  and maybe a bit more threat generation in def stance/gear.</p>

[BChizzle]

<p><cite>steelbadger wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Vinka@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I did some calculations based on the plate tanks in my raid's avoidance in fabled shields.  Wearing the Arc Knight Towershield alone (i.e., no other block chance or avoidance buffs) will give a plate tank 26.3% uncontested block.  Compare this to a monk, who in mastered defensive stance with 5 points in Aversion and the mythical buff has 27% uncontested block.  On the high end, our theoretical avoidance advantage over a plate tank is less than 1%!  This, frankly, is ridiculous.</p><p><strong>Brawlers need to be given a higher minimum deflection chance, preferably in a form that is not tied to our stances.</strong></p></blockquote><p>You've forgotten some bits.</p><p>>24% Brawler only block stat from Leather tanking armour.  10% Brawler only block stat from AAs (16% from Brawler tree vs 12% from Warrior tree and the 6% from the Brawler line in the TSO tree) as well.</p><p>So you don't just have 27% Block.  You have 36% Block.  vs the 26.3% block of the plate tank.</p><p>You cannot choose to ignore block chance on gear for an example like this because that is precisely where Brawlers see an advantage.  You cannot selectively choose to take account of the similar plate tank only Block Chance source (The shield) whilest simultaneously ignoring the Brawler only sources for the stat.</p><p>If we were to actually compare the classes without any +Block Chance whatsoever then:</p><p>The Brawler has 27%</p><p>The Plate has 26.3%/123.3*100=21.3%.</p><p>Oh, yes, and a Brawler needs only 160% to hit 70% uncontesed block while a plate tank (Using the shield you gave in your example) needs to accumulate 226% Block chance to hit that cap.</p><p>A plate tank requires <em>more</em> +Block Chance than a Brawler to hit cap but at the same time <em>can't</em> get access to as much as a brawler can due to gear limitations.  This is how it should be.</p><p>So, tell me, your tank probably has somewhere in the region of 40% Uncontested Block, assuming good gear (Maybe slightly more if they're a Crusader).  How much Uncontested Block do you have?</p><p>Oh, and how much strikethrough immunity does the plate tank have?</p><p>If Monks needs something then it's an alteration of perceptions...  and maybe a bit more threat generation in def stance/gear.</p></blockquote><p>Are you serious?  Who cares about block chance?  When is the last time a plate tank actually dropped an item for more block chance?  The answer is it doesn't happen.  Also your calculations are pure garbage.  A brawlers avoidance advantage comes from immunity to strikethrough and that is it.</p>

[Thrakkorzog]

<p>I care about block chance. It is the one stat I am trying to raise the most. I am in a casual raiding guild and I can get my uncontesed block to 50% which is enough to make me the best raid tank in my guild (although we are low on other tanks).</p>

[Hikinami]

<p>I care about block chance. I try and get as many defensive stats as I can.</p>

[BChizzle]

<p><cite>Muris@Mistmoore wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I care about block chance. It is the one stat I am trying to raise the most. I am in a casual raiding guild and I can get my uncontesed block to 50% which is enough to make me the best raid tank in my guild (although we are low on other tanks).</p></blockquote><p>If you get +mit instead of block chance you will increase your tanking 10 fold.</p>

[Nulgara]

<p><cite>steelbadger wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Vinka@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I did some calculations based on the plate tanks in my raid's avoidance in fabled shields.  Wearing the Arc Knight Towershield alone (i.e., no other block chance or avoidance buffs) will give a plate tank 26.3% uncontested block.  Compare this to a monk, who in mastered defensive stance with 5 points in Aversion and the mythical buff has 27% uncontested block.  On the high end, our theoretical avoidance advantage over a plate tank is less than 1%!  This, frankly, is ridiculous.</p><p><strong>Brawlers need to be given a higher minimum deflection chance, preferably in a form that is not tied to our stances.</strong></p></blockquote><p>You've forgotten some bits.</p><p>>24% Brawler only block stat from Leather tanking armour.  10% Brawler only block stat from AAs (16% from Brawler tree vs 12% from Warrior tree and the 6% from the Brawler line in the TSO tree) as well.</p><p>So you don't just have 27% Block.  You have 36% Block.  vs the 26.3% block of the plate tank.</p><p>You cannot choose to ignore block chance on gear for an example like this because that is precisely where Brawlers see an advantage.  You cannot selectively choose to take account of the similar plate tank only Block Chance source (The shield) whilest simultaneously ignoring the Brawler only sources for the stat.</p><p>If we were to actually compare the classes without any +Block Chance whatsoever then:</p><p>The Brawler has 27%</p><p>The Plate has 26.3%/123.3*100=21.3%.</p><p>Oh, yes, and a Brawler needs only 160% to hit 70% uncontesed block while a plate tank (Using the shield you gave in your example) needs to accumulate 226% Block chance to hit that cap.</p><p>A plate tank requires <em>more</em> +Block Chance than a Brawler to hit cap but at the same time <em>can't</em> get access to as much as a brawler can due to gear limitations.  This is how it should be.</p><p>So, tell me, your tank probably has somewhere in the region of 40% Uncontested Block, assuming good gear (Maybe slightly more if they're a Crusader).  How much Uncontested Block do you have?</p><p>Oh, and how much strikethrough immunity does the plate tank have?</p><p>If Monks needs something then it's an alteration of perceptions...  and maybe a bit more threat generation in def stance/gear.</p></blockquote><p>wrong actually the plate tank woudl have us beat by 5.3% if you werent gonan count any block mods. cause with no blovck mods our uncon avoidance is 21% not 27</p><p>and on top of that nice try on trying to come up with your own little equation there to make plate block look like less. theres no reduvcer bro 26.3% is 26.3%.</p><p>now if you want to do it right and count only max aa'd WARRIOR BLOCK vs max aa'd brawler block</p><p>27% now add 22% for monk aa - 32.94% uncont block using only aa block chance</p><p>now the warrior - 26.3 add 12% from aa - 29.456</p><p>no clue where you are getting your numbers from but if your gonna psot the math please do it right.</p><p>and when it comes to crusaders. guess what ..</p><p>pali gets 39% worth of mod and sk gets 30%</p><p>pali 26.3% add in 39% mod - 36.557% oh hey look MORE then a brawler</p><p>sk 26.3% add in 30% mod - 34.19% how interesting that both crusaders have more uncontested avoidance without factoring in gear.</p><p>for sure the monk has it EASIER getting block chance gear, on the same token it is VASTLY EASIER for plates to get mit.</p><p>sorry but i agree with vinka that brawlers shoudl have a distinct uncontested avoidance advantage before gear becomes a factor, cause you [Removed for Content] sure wont ever see a brawler get 1 item and some aa and have more mit that a plate tank 15 levels lower then them.</p>

[Shredderr]

<p><cite>Couching@Crushbone wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Ummudien@Guk wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I disagree I use Mongoose stance alot.</p><p>We maybe Tanks but we are not always tanking, I spend the vast majority of times on raid dpsing and with mongoose stance I don't need a dehate buff from someone else, well most of the time anyway.</p><p>I also dps in guild groups sometimes and though ripping aggro on heroics doesn't leave me 1 shotted dead, I'd prefer to leave it on the main Tank.</p><p>Utility is the main problem, though I wouldn't increased proc chance/dmg on the Wis tree and I still say the flurry should be pushed to 8, because I hate paying 1 point for less than 1 percent.</p><p>We need another group buff and our raid buff needs to be buffed.</p><p>10.4% casting speed is isn't much anymore and 26 haste is about half what T9 fabled give.</p></blockquote><p>Mongoose is only about 100-200 dehate/sec. Comparing to our dps, it's nothing.</p><p>No offense here, if your MT can't hold aggro off you without mongoose, replace him because he won't be able to hold aggro off real dpsers as well. Same situation in the heroic group.</p><p>Mongoose is junk. It is not only because we are tank and we shouldn't get detaunt but it is also inefficient even if you really need it, i.e, group/raid tank sucks and can't hold aggro.</p><p>Remove Mongoose or make it efficient as dragon rage. Personally, I would like to remove it instead of making it efficient.</p></blockquote><p>well a couple of our more powerful aa's have hate positionals on them so evade check is useful down the mongoose line which is why I guess we get the aggro issues . Its also why we are a poor OT I dont care that u will eventually give aggro back it makes other tanks look bad to have us constantly ripping aggro . Couple this with the fact thatif you are dpsing in offensive you will prob get 1 shotted , now we gotta choose to dps in defensive and use the ca's with positionals or in offensive with mongoose running and still better not touch the positionals unless you dont mind waiting on a rez .</p>

[circusgirl]

<p><cite>Shredderr wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Couching@Crushbone wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Ummudien@Guk wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I disagree I use Mongoose stance alot.</p><p>We maybe Tanks but we are not always tanking, I spend the vast majority of times on raid dpsing and with mongoose stance I don't need a dehate buff from someone else, well most of the time anyway.</p><p>I also dps in guild groups sometimes and though ripping aggro on heroics doesn't leave me 1 shotted dead, I'd prefer to leave it on the main Tank.</p><p>Utility is the main problem, though I wouldn't increased proc chance/dmg on the Wis tree and I still say the flurry should be pushed to 8, because I hate paying 1 point for less than 1 percent.</p><p>We need another group buff and our raid buff needs to be buffed.</p><p>10.4% casting speed is isn't much anymore and 26 haste is about half what T9 fabled give.</p></blockquote><p>Mongoose is only about 100-200 dehate/sec. Comparing to our dps, it's nothing.</p><p>No offense here, if your MT can't hold aggro off you without mongoose, replace him because he won't be able to hold aggro off real dpsers as well. Same situation in the heroic group.</p><p>Mongoose is junk. It is not only because we are tank and we shouldn't get detaunt but it is also inefficient even if you really need it, i.e, group/raid tank sucks and can't hold aggro.</p><p>Remove Mongoose or make it efficient as dragon rage. Personally, I would like to remove it instead of making it efficient.</p></blockquote><p>well a couple of our more powerful aa's have hate positionals on them so evade check is useful down the mongoose line which is why I guess we get the aggro issues . Its also why we are a poor OT I dont care that u will eventually give aggro back it makes other tanks look bad to have us constantly ripping aggro . Couple this with the fact thatif you are dpsing in offensive you will prob get 1 shotted , now we gotta choose to dps in defensive and use the ca's with positionals or in offensive with mongoose running and still better not touch the positionals unless you dont mind waiting on a rez .</p></blockquote><p>Just because Hidden Openings and Sneering Assault have a small damage component does not mean you are supposed to use them every time they are up.  They have quite long recasts and don't contribute much to your overall dps in any case, and you are much better off saving them for their intended purpose, which is to snap aggro.  These aren't dps abilities.  If you're using them you're doing something very wrong.  We really don't need evade check as a way of fixing something that we shouldn't be doing anyway, so your argument is moot.</p><p>While evade check stinks, I don't dislike it nearly as much as I do mongoose stance.  It's just a wasted option as it currently stands, and its very frustrating to be forced to put points into either mongoose stance or tranquil vision, <strong>both</strong> of which decrease my hate, in order to get to the nice ability underneath them.</p>

[yzyh]

<p>Your clueless about your class then because monk/bruiser now rock at tanking beeing the only fighter immune to strike true but they need to get some good gear befour they reach their peak.</p><p>but well their is a way too many brawler raid drop for the so few player who havent already re-rolled so most guild sell the looting rights for pretty cheap.</p>

[dalponis]

<p><cite>Hereo@Unrest wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Monks are still pretty much last place as fighters in tanking and utility. Are we going to see anymore changes to the EOF or SF AA's?</p></blockquote><p>Tanking <strong>and</strong> utility? I now know why SoE has such a hard time doing anything in this game: Dumb comments like that.</p><p>Yeah, I'm sure your raid-wide haste/casting speed and accuracy/spell accuracy is much worse than the guardian thirty-four points of defense. Yeah, you're right, no utility at all.</p><p>Monks are great tanks, but, of course, they need to be played differently than other tanks.</p><p>Stop complaining that you can't learn your class, you fail.</p> <blockquote>Or will this be another expansion of sucking?????????</blockquote><p>Ever wonder if it was just you, and not the class that sucked? I thought I'd put that out there.</p>

[BChizzle]

<p><cite>dalponis wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Hereo@Unrest wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Monks are still pretty much last place as fighters in tanking and utility. Are we going to see anymore changes to the EOF or SF AA's?</p></blockquote><p>Tanking <strong>and</strong> utility? I now know why SoE has such a hard time doing anything in this game: Dumb comments like that.</p><p>Yeah, I'm sure your raid-wide haste/casting speed and accuracy/spell accuracy is much worse than the guardian thirty-four points of defense. Yeah, you're right, no utility at all.</p><p>Monks are great tanks, but, of course, they need to be played differently than other tanks.</p><p>Stop complaining that you can't learn your class, you fail.</p> <blockquote>Or will this be another expansion of sucking?????????</blockquote><p>Ever wonder if it was just you, and not the class that sucked? I thought I'd put that out there.</p></blockquote><p>Every monk in the game is wrong and you as a crappy guardian are right!</p>

[circusgirl]

<p>Here's a monk change I'd like to see:</p><p>Mend: in addition to its large % heal and its cure noxious, I would like to see mend also cure arcane, trauma, and curse on a single target.</p>

[Caethre]

<p>(( <span style="color: #ff6600;">A few points.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">Firstly, I still believe the main problem we monks have is that when tanking IN EQUIVALENT GEAR to a crusader or beserker, we cannot hope to generate anywhere near as much aggro, which still causes a lot of folks not to want to use us as group tanks. This needs properly balancing between the tank classes - a Monk should not need to significantly outgear a plate tank before we can generate as much threat-per-second when acting in the role of tank.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">One solution, if we are to remain a fighter class that is meant to generate threat more via our DPS than via AE taunt abilities, is to give us some kind of automatic +hate modifier with our hybrid and defensive stances. Perhaps +15hate for the hybrind stance, and +30hate for the defensive one, would be appropriate perhaps.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">This would remove this feeling I and many other monks seem to have, that we are not going to try to tank without significant hate transfer in group. I will never tank for a PUG unless that group has a dirge. I would not have that point of view were I playing a Paladin, a Shadowknight or a Beserker. This really needs sorting out.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">====</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">Secondly, whilst monks are one of the six fighter classes, we are not and have never been only a tank class. The mindset that we are "just tanks" seems to come from the raiding community, based on the people I hear saying it at least, whereas out there in Norrath, in casual-style groups, monks (unlike plate tanks) are in many cases still used as DPS in addition to a plate tank. Back in ROK days, this was by far the most viable way to play a nonraiding monk!</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">Now admittedly, due to SOE's change of focus, especially in Sentinel's Fate era, it is a lot harder than it used to be, and for those of us who group mostly in pick-up groups rather than in regular groups, one would now remain LFG for long periods if one was not also prepared to tank (which is why I started tanking on my monk after SF release!). Regardless of this however, I would still much prefer to see the concept of the DPS-Monk supported and made once again as viable as it was in ROK days, whilst at the same time allowing us to act as heroic group tanks with reasonable efficiency.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">[By the way, comments about defilers and paladins joining groups as DPS and making the comparison are totally bogus. I would never take unknown people of those classes as DPS in pickup groups, and nor would almost anyone else; they have no place trying to be DPS classes. Brawlers, by contrast, are different - there is a long history of the DPS-Brawler, it has been and in my view should continue to be a viable approach to playing these classes. The fact that it is not as viable as once it was it regrettable, to me and to many others, even if not to everyone on this thread.]</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">Considering the ability "Evade Check", therefore, I love this ability and find it extremely useful. It is of no value when tanking in defensive stance, of course, but I use it liberally when grouped with a plate tank and when I am therefore acting as DPS in offensive stance. I also like using this ability on pickup and semi-pickup raids I have started joining, even if I am remaining in defensive to do and offtank and/or puller and/or MA role when requested, to make absolutely sure that when I am assisting on the mob the MT is tanking, that I do not rip from the MT. Personally I have found it very useful for when I am acting as MA/puller and wanting to drop a mob at the MT and swap it to him on the fly. So even if some of you don't like it, I love it!</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">Considering the ability Mongoose Stance, however, I am less than impressed, and dropped it long ago as basically too weak to be of any value.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">Considering the Tranquil Vision enhancement, well, I have it currently for when I am tanking, but really it is very small, and could do with being about twice the size to be of some real use. For when not tanking, the same comment really ... I use it either on the tank or (if the tank didn't want it) on the healer in groups, but it needs to be larger to be of any real use.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">Considering gorup FD, I love it. :</span>) ))</p>

[Aull]

<p>It has been many years but I do remember running every day norrath instances/quest lines with a plate tank and a monk. It was very common and it worked out well. One thing to remember back in that era of the game was the shiftiness deaggro was used so that a dpsing monk wouldn't rip aggro all the time. So I do believe that monks and brusiers for that matter were intended to have higher dps than the other fighters. Otherwise why would they be given a deaggro. Again that was in that era of the game.</p><p>If my memory serves me well I do remember monks as the best fighter choice for good dps, good survival, and good utility. No other fighter had that type of versitility period. The only other fighter of that era that was close to as versitile was the paladin. The only area that that plates did outshine the monk was of course taking hard hits and rightfully so.</p><p>I know many monks here believe that monks should be just a tank, but for me that mindset has allowed the monk to loose the wonderful versitility they once had. That versitility was the core part of monk individuality.</p><p>Monks of this time were so much more than just another "tank".</p><p>Looking back all I can say is what a class the monk once was.</p>

[dalponis]

<p>My monk tanks two rune Theer...</p><p>I have no idea what anyone is saying here...</p>

[jrolla777]

<p><cite>dalponis wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>My monk tanks two rune Theer...</p><p>I have no idea what anyone is saying here...</p></blockquote><p>When we get the gear, monks are great. What they are saying is, from their perspective, an under geared monk is not as effective as an under geared plate tank. That's how I perceive their comments.</p>

[BChizzle]

<p><cite>dalponis wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>My monk tanks two rune Theer...</p><p>I have no idea what anyone is saying here...</p></blockquote><p>Scouts can tank 2 rune theer what is your point.  Can your monk hold agro on 2 rune theer from a plate tank that is trying?  Very unlikely.</p>

[Yimway]

<p><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Scouts can tank 2 rune theer what is your point.  Can your monk hold agro on 2 rune theer from a plate tank that is trying?  Very unlikely.</p></blockquote><p>Hate buffs managed well, yes, this actually works well enough.</p>

[BChizzle]

<p><cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Scouts can tank 2 rune theer what is your point.  Can your monk hold agro on 2 rune theer from a plate tank that is trying?  Very unlikely.</p></blockquote><p>Hate buffs managed well, yes, this actually works well enough.</p></blockquote><p>Can you make your point in English?</p>

[Aule]

With my bruiser, without using a single positional tool, I generally have to run alternate: shiftiness and use my positional deaggro to avoid snagging hate from the berserker who's got 50 hate gain and a hate xfer, while I have 37 hate and no xfer. That being said, brawlers used to be much better in the dps comparison among fighters. Over time the various changes to the game have pushed down the brawler dps benefit. Starting back when they raised other fighters to the same melee attack table as brawlers. I'm not as familiar with monks, but bruisers particularly also suffer from the 3:1 damage ratio on combat arts experiencing serious compression due to potency and crit bonus giving a lesser marginal return.