Monk Changes - How about some?

[mr23sgte]

Monks are still pretty much last place as fighters in tanking and utility. Are we going to see anymore changes to the EOF or SF AA's?

Or will this be another expansion of sucking?????????

[Aull]

Personally so far I am pleased with my monk. Survivability is better and that to me is a must. Tsunami at 20sec coupled with strikethrough immunity in defensive are massive improvements. Picking up aggro is easy at least single target atm. 

Aoe is better than before. Sure crusaders are still kicking in aoe and brawlers will never be better there. I don't think zerkers are as good aoe as crusaders are either, but I will get to logging in my zerker one day in the near future for a better compairson. Anyway I am enjoying the improvements to the wis line.

Manits bolt, flurry, and crane twirl are big improvements for my monks dps too. I didn't really expect to see any dps improvements for brawlers this xpac.

Utility does need boosting. My bruiser has seen very good improvements utility wise and this was something that I was never for to begin with since I knew that giving bruisers better utility would be infringing on what made monks special in compairson to bruisers.

Over all I am very pleased with my monk. So far. It is still very early in this xpac so more time will tell.

[mr23sgte]

Yeah it's better, but I stick with my statment.

[circusgirl]

Enhance: Tranquil Vision and Mongoose Stance in the EoF line desperately need to be changed.  Or hell--I'd even prefer they be deleted entirely compared to what they are now, as things currently stand we have to waste 3 AAs to get down to dragonfire.

Enhance: Tranquil Vision is an issue as the best use of TV is to put it on the MT while we OT.  This is a problem however since it causes us to shed hate.  I would prefer this to be changed to something that increases the utility of tranquil vision.

Mongoose Stance is pointless--we're tanks, we don't need a detaunt.  Put in anything else!

[Aull]

Good points Vinka. I most certainly agree that monks are tanks and the detaunt in our aa's should not be there.

[Xanrn]

I disagree I use Mongoose stance alot.

We maybe Tanks but we are not always tanking, I spend the vast majority of times on raid dpsing and with mongoose stance I don't need a dehate buff from someone else, well most of the time anyway.

I also dps in guild groups sometimes and though ripping aggro on heroics doesn't leave me 1 shotted dead, I'd prefer to leave it on the main Tank.

Utility is the main problem, though I wouldn't increased proc chance/dmg on the Wis tree and I still say the flurry should be pushed to 8, because I hate paying 1 point for less than 1 percent.

We need another group buff and our raid buff needs to be buffed.

10.4% casting speed is isn't much anymore and 26 haste is about half what T9 fabled give.

[Aull]

Correct me if I am wrong but I thought that flurry is 8% maxxed at 10 points spent. 0.8 x 10 = 8. I might be missing something though.

Group fd should be changed something useful as well.

[Couching]

Ummudien@Guk wrote:

I disagree I use Mongoose stance alot.

We maybe Tanks but we are not always tanking, I spend the vast majority of times on raid dpsing and with mongoose stance I don't need a dehate buff from someone else, well most of the time anyway.

I also dps in guild groups sometimes and though ripping aggro on heroics doesn't leave me 1 shotted dead, I'd prefer to leave it on the main Tank.

Utility is the main problem, though I wouldn't increased proc chance/dmg on the Wis tree and I still say the flurry should be pushed to 8, because I hate paying 1 point for less than 1 percent.

We need another group buff and our raid buff needs to be buffed.

10.4% casting speed is isn't much anymore and 26 haste is about half what T9 fabled give.

Mongoose is only about 100-200 dehate/sec. Comparing to our dps, it's nothing.

No offense here, if your MT can't hold aggro off you without mongoose, replace him because he won't be able to hold aggro off real dpsers as well. Same situation in the heroic group.

Mongoose is junk. It is not only because we are tank and we shouldn't get detaunt but it is also inefficient even if you really need it, i.e, group/raid tank sucks and can't hold aggro.

Remove Mongoose or make it efficient as dragon rage. Personally, I would like to remove it instead of making it efficient.

[Silzin]

I have wanted Mongoose stance to be, when activated it changes dragon rage into a equol detaun.

[Blu]

I'm still not happy with where we are as tanks. I do a lot of PUGs, and despite our improvements in SF, I still can't just join a group that is "looking for tank then g2g".

So, I'm sticking with dps spec/gear for a while longer. I know that we don't have the best potential in that area, but for most PUGs I'm better than average for it with gear/AAs (and the SF new/improved dps AAs help also).

Even from a DPS perspective, I agree that Mongoose Stance and Tranquil Vision enhancer are mostly useless.

Mongoose Stance proc amount is lame. Anecdotally, I haven't noticed it doing anything for keeping aggro off me. To be useful, it will need to proc for a lot more and more often.

Like all conditional taunt/detaunt abilities, Tranquil Vision AA is fail. Vinka mentions the problems for tanking. For dps, if (for whatever reason) the tank doesn't want TV, I can't use it on anyone else b/c it will give me more aggro. So this one is horrible all the way around.

The extra fail part is to take evade check (which I could actually use for a dps spec), I either have to cap both of these horrible AAs, or else take taunt-increasing AAs. So, choice is between bad and worse.

[Blu]

Aull wrote:

Correct me if I am wrong but I thought that flurry is 8% maxxed at 10 points spent. 0.8 x 10 = 8. I might be missing something though.

Group fd should be changed something useful as well.

We only get to put 8 pts in the SF abilities.

Group FD is not something that I use often, but I do use it now and again to good effect. I suppose it is pretty pointless for raids.

[Aull]

Thanks for clearing that up for me. I didn't know that.

[Siatfallen]

Mongoose stance and Enhance: Tranquil Vision used to be useful abilities.Brawlers produce a lot of aggro for the damage they deal, making keeping aggro off us a real problem at times - I used both of these in EoF (the added aggro to the MT was a nice bonus) - for a DPS spec, but that's what I did far and away most of the time.

Today, it serves no purpose, since any decent tank should be able to keep aggro off us if we're not trying to take it. They've moved us further away from being a DPS class than ever before. As a consequence, it's about time they got rid of these AAs, and gave us something useful instead.

[circusgirl]

Xerq makes an excellent point about Evade check--this endline is clearly a dps-oriented ability, and yet it is nearly impossible to get it without putting points in tanking abilities.  The "Awareness" type abilities are mostly taunts, tranquil vision (not only useless but frequently actually harmful) and mongoose stance (which is entirely useless).  I can imagine Evade check being decent if you're one of the few monks out there that still considers themselves dps for whatever reason, but even for that subsect of the monk population it's counterproductive to try to get it since it involves going through taunts to get there.  Don't get me wrong--I put points in my taunts.  But then again, I'm doing so to help me tank, not to help me get a positional detaunt.  

Basically the issues with the monk lines are as follows:

1. Hate Transfer on Enhance: Tranquil Vision is counterproductive under many circumstances, and many monks are forced to get it anyway in order to get to the good AA beneath it.
2. Mongoose stance is useless.  A)We're tanks and don't need detaunts and B)even if you want to detaunt for whatever reason the amount is too small to be useful.
3. Evade check, an ability that is clearly designed for dps monks, can only be gotten by putting points into taunts first.  It does not make sense to have to increase your hate generation in order to decrease your hate generation!

Tranquil Vision is a very, very important monk ability, especially for those of us who raid.  I'd say for me its the single most important ability except maybe tsunami.  I would really like to see this changed to increase the % chance of avoiding a blow for our target, along the lines of the new shake-off AA for bruisers, or something different but also useful for the tank.  Good options would be things that increase the defensive capabilities of either the monk caster or our target.  How about more mitigation for the monk when we cast it?  You could make it really creative and have it be a sort of two-way transfer of defense, where the AA could give us mitigation based on the target's mit value (increase our mitigation by 1% of theirs per point, for example, so if they had 10,000 mit we would get 100 mitigation per point).

Mongoose stance needs to either be upgraded to be as good of a detaunt as dragon stance is a taunt, or it needs to be deleted and replaced with something entirely different.

I would like to see Evade check turned into something that would be useful either for a dps monk OR for a tank monk: for example, a passive ability that grants +10 hate gain if dragon stance is active, -10 hate gain if dragon stance is not active.  

[Aull]

Vinka@Antonia Bayle wrote:

Xerq makes an excellent point about Evade check--this endline is clearly a dps-oriented ability, and yet it is nearly impossible to get it without putting points in tanking abilities.  The "Awareness" type abilities are mostly taunts, tranquil vision (not only useless but frequently actually harmful) and mongoose stance (which is entirely useless).  I can imagine Evade check being decent if you're one of the few monks out there that still considers themselves dps for whatever reason, but even for that subsect of the monk population it's counterproductive to try to get it since it involves going through taunts to get there.  Don't get me wrong--I put points in my taunts.  But then again, I'm doing so to help me tank, not to help me get a positional detaunt.  

Basically the issues with the monk lines are as follows:

1. Hate Transfer on Enhance: Tranquil Vision is counterproductive under many circumstances, and many monks are forced to get it anyway in order to get to the good AA beneath it.
2. Mongoose stance is useless.  A)We're tanks and don't need detaunts and B)even if you want to detaunt for whatever reason the amount is too small to be useful.
3. Evade check, an ability that is clearly designed for dps monks, can only be gotten by putting points into taunts first.  It does not make sense to have to increase your hate generation in order to decrease your hate generation!

Tranquil Vision is a very, very important monk ability, especially for those of us who raid.  I'd say for me its the single most important ability except maybe tsunami.  I would really like to see this changed to increase the % chance of avoiding a blow for our target, along the lines of the new shake-off AA for bruisers, or something different but also useful for the tank.  Good options would be things that increase the defensive capabilities of either the monk caster or our target.  How about more mitigation for the monk when we cast it?  You could make it really creative and have it be a sort of two-way transfer of defense, where the AA could give us mitigation based on the target's mit value (increase our mitigation by 1% of theirs per point, for example, so if they had 10,000 mit we would get 100 mitigation per point).

Mongoose stance needs to either be upgraded to be as good of a detaunt as dragon stance is a taunt, or it needs to be deleted and replaced with something entirely different.

I would like to see Evade check turned into something that would be useful either for a dps monk OR for a tank monk: for example, a passive ability that grants +10 hate gain if dragon stance is active, -10 hate gain if dragon stance is not active.  

Excellent post!

I wish that mongoose stance would be deleted and replaced with something that is beneficial. Could make it a utility that allows the recipient (fighter class only or self) the ability to proc 30% chance threat if recipient is hit and/or procs on a successful block/parry as well. This could go hand in hand for a monk who wishes not to tank and with Vinka's idea with evade check would really be nice. It could go either way for a tanking monk or non tanking monk.

Many monks that believe they are strickly dps are mistaken. Other fighters are capable of dishing out just as much dps as a monk can yet are still considered tanks and they have better utility than the monk. Monks need some more utility.

[Minoko]

I agree with those proposed changes too. The changes made this expansion were good but I think more is need especially to dispell the current attitude towards the class. Just the other day I offered to off tank something and got laughed at but I know I could have done a good job at it. It's that attitude more than the state of the class that bothers me.

I'm hoping it will get better when I fill in some more aa too. As for Tranquil Vision, half the time I find I can't even cast it on another tank because their buffs overwrite it or something.

[circusgirl]

Regarding Tranquil Vision and other tanks...

All tanks have some sort of avoidance buff.  Ours happens to be the second best in game (just after bruisers).  However, you cannot both cast yours on someone AND have someone cast theirs on you.  If your TV is being overwritten, it is because the other tank is casting his avoidance buff on someone else in the group.  Tell him to stop doing that.  Many tanks that are new or don't raid or never group with other tanks just aren't aware that there exists this uber buff that cuts incoming damage on them by 20-50%.  They just cast their buffs like they always do, not realizing that it is much, much better for them to be on the receiving end.  

Honestly, taking a solid brawler along in a group is oftentimes about as good for the MT's survivability as bringing an extra healer (though of course, we don't cure or do anything for the rest of the group).  If folks don't know this, inform them.

[Blu]

Aull wrote:

Many monks that believe they are strickly dps are mistaken. Other fighters are capable of dishing out just as much dps as a monk can yet are still considered tanks and they have better utility than the monk. Monks need some more utility.

I agree about utility.

I know that we are not strictly dps, nor even particularly good at it compared to real dps classes. However for me, it's still the path of least resistance to playing a monk in PUGs.

For PUG tanking, I have to make my own group to guarantee success, and I have to depend on getting some specific classes (Dirge at minimum) which may entail a bit of a wait. If I try to join an existing group, there's a good chance the group will be setup in a way that it will be difficult to succeed with me tanking. So before joining an existing group, I have to question the group's makeup. Even if the group makeup turns out ok, they may have found another tank who didn't need to ask the questions by the time I get those answers.

For PUG dps, I just respond to posts in 80-89 chat with: x - x melee dps unbuffed. And the group leader can decide whether that's acceptable. Often it is and I receive an invite. I don't even bother to say that I'm a monk.

Seemingly less of my game time is wasted when I go the dps route, so that's what I do.

[circusgirl]

Any class can dps if they want to.  A defiler could dps if he decided thats what he wanted to do.

They just wouldn't do it well.

The issue with people calling us "dps" or "utility" is that we are pretty middle of the road for tanks in terms of dps on most encounters, and what they call "utility" tends to be what we call "holding aggro and not dieing" or "tanking."  Can we join a group and dps if we want to?  Sure!  So could a shadowknight, zerker, bruiser, or paladin.  DPS is all well and good, but its not enough to justify not being able to perform our core role well.

[Couching]

Xerq@Crushbone wrote:

For PUG tanking, I have to make my own group to guarantee success, and I have to depend on getting some specific classes (Dirge at minimum) which may entail a bit of a wait. If I try to join an existing group, there's a good chance the group will be setup in a way that it will be difficult to succeed with me tanking. So before joining an existing group, I have to question the group's makeup. Even if the group makeup turns out ok, they may have found another tank who didn't need to ask the questions by the time I get those answers.

For PUG dps, I just respond to posts in 80-89 chat with: x - x melee dps unbuffed. And the group leader can decide whether that's acceptable. Often it is and I receive an invite. I don't even bother to say that I'm a monk.

Seemingly less of my game time is wasted when I go the dps route, so that's what I do.

Tanking heroic instance is a joke in SF.

Even rogue can tank most heroic instances with 1 healer without problem. Last night, I was crashed on last named in Spirit's resonance. After I logged back, swashy in the group was tanking named with a fury solo heal without problem. In fact, they were holding their dps and waiting for me for the kill update.

From the point of survivability, every fighter is far enough for heroic instances. The only difference is aggro management.

[Blu]

Couching@Crushbone wrote:

Xerq@Crushbone wrote:

For PUG tanking, I have to make my own group to guarantee success, and I have to depend on getting some specific classes (Dirge at minimum) which may entail a bit of a wait. If I try to join an existing group, there's a good chance the group will be setup in a way that it will be difficult to succeed with me tanking. So before joining an existing group, I have to question the group's makeup. Even if the group makeup turns out ok, they may have found another tank who didn't need to ask the questions by the time I get those answers.

For PUG dps, I just respond to posts in 80-89 chat with: x - x melee dps unbuffed. And the group leader can decide whether that's acceptable. Often it is and I receive an invite. I don't even bother to say that I'm a monk.

Seemingly less of my game time is wasted when I go the dps route, so that's what I do.

Tanking heroic instance is a joke in SF.

Even rogue can tank most heroic instances with 1 healer without problem. Last night, I was crashed on last named in Spirit's resonance. After I logged back, swashy in the group was tanking named with a fury solo heal without problem. In fact, they were holding their dps and waiting for me for the kill update.

From the point of survivability, every fighter is far enough for heroic instances. The only difference is aggro management.

Yep. I didn't say that survivability was a problem. The one class I mentioned needing, dirge, obviously implies aggro management.

This is more a commentary on our class from the perspective of PUGs. If you have a regular group you run around with, that's awesome... you probably don't have the same frustrations.

[Blu]

Vinka@Antonia Bayle wrote:

Any class can dps if they want to.  A defiler could dps if he decided thats what he wanted to do.

They just wouldn't do it well.

The issue with people calling us "dps" or "utility" is that we are pretty middle of the road for tanks in terms of dps on most encounters, and what they call "utility" tends to be what we call "holding aggro and not dieing" or "tanking."  Can we join a group and dps if we want to?  Sure!  So could a shadowknight, zerker, bruiser, or paladin.  DPS is all well and good, but its not enough to justify not being able to perform our core role well.

Assuming you are responding to me...

A defiler dpsing seems a rather extreme comparison, considering we are in the fighter forum in a thread about monks (or brawlers).

I can't speculate as to what other people mean by utility.  To me, holding aggro and not dying is tanking, not utility. Our points of utility seem to be our rw buff and our avoidance buff. Our rw is pretty marginal anymore. Other tanks have avoid buffs, albeit not as good as ours. Therefore we have a bare minimum of utility.

I concede that brawlers have comparatively mediocre dps even among fighters, and that simply having more dps is still no consolation prize for lagging behind in the tank department.

However, my comments (except agreeing about needing more utility) weren't concerned with the ideal or where the class should be headed. They are concerned with dealing with the here and the now of what we have, and more specifically my situation of running PUGs a lot. If you're not stuck with PUGs, then feel free to ignore my comments related to them.

[Couching]

Xerq@Crushbone wrote:

Couching@Crushbone wrote:

Xerq@Crushbone wrote:

For PUG tanking, I have to make my own group to guarantee success, and I have to depend on getting some specific classes (Dirge at minimum) which may entail a bit of a wait. If I try to join an existing group, there's a good chance the group will be setup in a way that it will be difficult to succeed with me tanking. So before joining an existing group, I have to question the group's makeup. Even if the group makeup turns out ok, they may have found another tank who didn't need to ask the questions by the time I get those answers.

For PUG dps, I just respond to posts in 80-89 chat with: x - x melee dps unbuffed. And the group leader can decide whether that's acceptable. Often it is and I receive an invite. I don't even bother to say that I'm a monk.

Seemingly less of my game time is wasted when I go the dps route, so that's what I do.

Tanking heroic instance is a joke in SF.

Even rogue can tank most heroic instances with 1 healer without problem. Last night, I was crashed on last named in Spirit's resonance. After I logged back, swashy in the group was tanking named with a fury solo heal without problem. In fact, they were holding their dps and waiting for me for the kill update.

From the point of survivability, every fighter is far enough for heroic instances. The only difference is aggro management.

Yep. I didn't say that survivability was a problem. The one class I mentioned needing, dirge, obviously implies aggro management.

This is more a commentary on our class from the perspective of PUGs. If you have a regular group you run around with, that's awesome... you probably don't have the same frustrations.

I don't have a regular group and I have done a lot of pick up groups without a dirge. I don't have problem on aggro in most cases. Occasionally, dpsers with raid gear would get aggro on trash and it's not a big deal at all because mobs hit like a girl. As long as there is a healer in the group, nothing to worry.

If you can hold aggro on named off your mages, you are fine in a pick up group as tank.

It's their loose if they refuse to invite a monk as group tank. It's also their loose to invite a monk to play a dps role instead of a real dpser.

[Blu]

Couching@Crushbone wrote:

I don't have a regular group and I have done a lot of pick up groups without a dirge. I don't have problem on aggro in most cases. Occasionally, dpsers with raid gear would get aggro on trash and it's not a big deal at all because mobs hit like a girl. As long as there is a healer in the group, nothing to worry.

If you can hold aggro on named off your mages, you are fine in a pick up group as tank.

It's their loose if they refuse to invite a monk as group tank. It's also their loose to invite a monk to play a dps role instead of a real dpser.

Fair enough.

The other day I got invited to tank a Cella group, When I got in group, classes were something like: troub, wiz/lock, fury, illy, and one other. I ran from that one tbh. I haven't tanked Cella yet either, so that woulda been ultimate fail.

[Lethe5683]

Brawlers are better than they were in TSO of course, but compared to what guardians and paladins got brawlers are now even worse relative to guards and paladins and to a lesser extent SKs and Zerkers.

[Eugam]

I case you guys dont know... the wardens are your best friends in heroic instances now

We bring hate, mitigation, HP, AGI and a damage blocker similar to Tsunami for when the mobs hit through avoidance.

[NamaeZero]

Personally, I'd like to see every single one of the instant/10-20 second duration abilities (Superior Guard, Inner Focus, Brawler's Tenacity, Mediative Focus, etc.) we have to either prevent death or damage >X% revised. I'm not psychic, but I'd need to be to make these useful.

It's bad design to require two very uncommon situations (extremely short ability activation and massive damage/death) to occur simultaneously and expect a player to guess in advance without being given a clue. It's either woefully underpowered, or massively overpowered if you figure out a trick to abuse the protection, like jousting.

Also, please look at Combination. It's poorly documented and doesn't work like it says it does since there is no direct correspondance between what's a Punch, Jab, or Kick (The HO icons are often wrong.) It's also massively subject to lag, because the time is incredibly short for requiring four different clicks. Though the attack itself can't miss, any of the three previous attacks might so the bonus damage is rarely worth the effort. There is no reason it couldn't be coded to go off automatically, and that alone would make it worthwhile.

[circusgirl]

Xerq@Crushbone wrote:

Vinka@Antonia Bayle wrote:

Any class can dps if they want to.  A defiler could dps if he decided thats what he wanted to do.

They just wouldn't do it well.

The issue with people calling us "dps" or "utility" is that we are pretty middle of the road for tanks in terms of dps on most encounters, and what they call "utility" tends to be what we call "holding aggro and not dieing" or "tanking."  Can we join a group and dps if we want to?  Sure!  So could a shadowknight, zerker, bruiser, or paladin.  DPS is all well and good, but its not enough to justify not being able to perform our core role well.

Assuming you are responding to me...

A defiler dpsing seems a rather extreme comparison, considering we are in the fighter forum in a thread about monks (or brawlers).

I can't speculate as to what other people mean by utility.  To me, holding aggro and not dying is tanking, not utility. Our points of utility seem to be our rw buff and our avoidance buff. Our rw is pretty marginal anymore. Other tanks have avoid buffs, albeit not as good as ours. Therefore we have a bare minimum of utility.

I concede that brawlers have comparatively mediocre dps even among fighters, and that simply having more dps is still no consolation prize for lagging behind in the tank department.

However, my comments (except agreeing about needing more utility) weren't concerned with the ideal or where the class should be headed. They are concerned with dealing with the here and the now of what we have, and more specifically my situation of running PUGs a lot. If you're not stuck with PUGs, then feel free to ignore my comments related to them.

It wasn't so much a response to you as it was to those individuals that like to say things like "Brawlers are utility tanks--you have the ability to snap a mob and tank them for a short duration when the MT goes down."  Tanking is a core function of the class, and its ludicrous for people to pretend that us being able to do what every other tank does already counts as "utility."  Likewise with those that justify having less survivability by saying we have more dps, when in reality we're pretty middle of the road dps-wise.

[Couching]

I can't understand as well why tanking raid mobs is an utility for brawlers.

[Megavolt]

TBH, I think TV should be changed to go in line with dragon rage that when dragon rage is active a succesful avoid by the monk on the target of TV will gain a hate position on the monk, and when inactive a successful avoid by the monk on the target drops a hate position. That way hate control for an OTing monk becomes an active balancing act of turning on and off dragon rage to hold that secondary spot, an MTing monk allows us to deal with problem child dpsers while keeping it on, and a dps monk gets to keep it off so he doesn't build himself high. There is no straight arrow build for monks, so making TV a not so straight arrow way to deal with hate would probably be right on.

Honestly I like mongoose stance. I liked it more in the killed off fighter revamps (yay proc increaser)

D-fist needs to be brought in line with Death Touch.

Need a bit more worn armor effectiveness on the last defensive stance.

Need a dps increase or potency on offensive stance. There's no reason to use it over midstance now with haste caps.

Increase flurry to 1% per point. 6% is barely noticeable. Mantis bolt and crane twirl each do more dps than my flurried attacks do.

Meditative healing still needs a boost.

Where's the mit increasers on our armor? I see plenty on the charms and jewelry items that all fighters can use, but on the armor pieces for brawlers this expansion they've been dropped off.

Now, I'm just confused with the weapons. Are we 2.5 delay or 4.0 delay? Will you please make up your mind and put out one? We have some nice 4.0 offhanders accessible in early SF, but since the nerfing of Jojo's, nothing to replace the myth until high end raiding for main hand. Jojo's wasn't even an upgrade when it came out, but a nice sidestep until we found better offhanders.

I      still      don't       see       NUNCHUCKS!!