The recent battle between the can's and the can't

[Rast]

<p>Guys, this bickering has got to stop.  I don't care what side you are on, if we keep fighting like this, noone wins. We should be looking at how can we improve the community, how can we improve the gaming life of ALL paladins, not just those of us who happen to be content.My number 1 concern is that people aren't being listened to by SoE and that breeds contempt and anger and that spills over into the forums and disrupts a community between those who can and those who can't.There are issues for Paladins, but those issues extend far beyond just one class, they are a struggle due to the way things are done in EQ2, not to any one class design. People hate paladins because it is easier to dismiss a class that you don't believe is good than to dismiss one you think is good due to the way raids are set up.You simply do NOT need more than 2 or 3 fighters on any raid and when there are 6 fighter classes, someone has to be left out. If people believe paladins suck, it is easier to dismiss them for raiding, even though we can excel in it. By proving we can excel, we make it so someone else has to be left out to be efficient. That is why I say our class doesn't need wholesale changes, becuase no matter how improved we become, it will still leave someone out.I've made a recommendation to Gnorbin on an idea and we'll see where it goes. But it is more important to build a community than it is to win a war that shouldn't exist in the first place. I know, it is hard, we pallies have had to fight and scrape for everything welve gotten, but we need to consider the big picture as much as anyone else.Without a paladin community, we will have no voice to the developers, without a voice, we might as well not exist. Winning this 'war' of yours doesn't build a community, it will tear it apart. It will simply change the dominate side, not merge the two sides together as pallies.</p><p>Hasn't anyone ever heard that in a war, there are no winners, only survivors and the dead. If you want to turn this into a war, then all that will be left is the survivers and the banned and everyone loses at that point.</p>

[ChopStix]

<p>well it goes like this for me..</p><p>i've played a paladin for over a year, i moth balled him and rolled a zerker, and that proved to me the difference in those 2 class's..  i also played a guardian at a friends house and the difference again is night and day..   beserkers and guardians take less damage than a paladin for some reason.. i guess its the old saying well, a paladin can heal, so they take in more damage, which is a crock of crap in my book..</p><p>also i was plaiyng my paladin today ,and for over a year now, the paladins power consumption has been broke, paladins use entirely to much power for casted spells, and i have flowing thought 18 on my pally and  flowing thought zero on my beserker, and my beserker uses less power...  but yet developers have done nothing about this..</p><p>developers come to this forum, trust me , i know they do..    do they pay attention?    NO THEY DO NOT!</p><p>and as far as the crusader class's go,  a shadow knight is far stronger in pvp than any paladin, and i hope someone says they can eat a shadowknight up with thier paladin 1v1..  i know it doesnt happen. a paladin is out of power in about 1 minute or less into the fight.. and yes thats with the flowing thought 18 that i have, and shards from a conjy, and a power potion...  this has been tested by me and a friend several times.. he has a sk and i with my paladin, and we both have about the same gear.. sk's have evac, pestilent touch, feign death.. what does a paladin get, one heal for around 3500-4k.. but yet pestilent touch can do upwards of 6k damage or more, go figure...  paladins ward needs to be even bigger, because tower of stone the guardian gets will absord far more than 1300 damage.. </p><p>and also i have seen 5 gm's since ive been playing, and all were freeport class's..  ive heard of one developer started playing a paladin and got up into his 40's or 50's and never heard anything else about it. i guess he kept getting his [Removed for Content] handed to him so he quit playing it, or he seen the difference and went back to playing his guardian..</p><p>i sill have fun playing my paladin, dont get me wrong.. but as far as seriously tanking, a guardian will go farther than a paladin, and a beserker will out dps a paladin and a guardian... out of the 3 tanks the paladin is the weaker of the bunch.. sure a paladin can tank, and it can dps,, but guardians and beserkers do both better. they get more freestanding mitigation and defense than a paladin, and thier avoidance is also higher..</p><p>ive posted on the paladins so much in the past, that i got tired of it, and the developers lack of support didnt help any!</p><p>there will always be 2 sides of the fence.</p>

[irvisscott]

Why is it that no thread can get started without someone jumping on and saying something about guardians and beserkers being better than pallys? This is a game, I enjoy my 70 pally much more than i do my 70 guard. I come here to read advice from the best paladins in the game, and while some of them might be frustrated with what they see in here, they still offer suggestions and ways to contact them for help. Some of them have said they have tanked every mob in the game. I have no reason to doubt this and if it is true there is nothing wrong with the class. If it can be done, learn to do it, be happy with what you are doing, or go play another class. If a paladin is capable of anything in the game if played to its potential, what do you want the dev's to do? Several attempts have been made on here by pallys to start positive threads about pallys. Everyone one of them has been filled with people trying to contradict the thread starter. In the future, if the thread is started to praise pallys, and you have nothing good to say, start your own. I for one will leave yours alone if you will leave the positive ones alone. If any new paladins are on this forum I would suggest you go to eq2flames for more help these days as the best and most helpful paladins are now banned from these forums or will not bother to post here anymore. Enough rambling for now, logging on to try to get better and will leave this thread to the complaintfest it will surely become.

[BigDaddy253]

<p>Jalathan is 100% correct.  The problem is those like Jal that are passionaite about the class get frustrated for reasons that are obvious in a bunch of threads.  I'm done with it personally....after seeing a thread that provides some dam good proof about the class abilities get turned into a ban fest....I'm done.   </p><p>So, since Jal asked so nicley.....I promise from this point forward to post with only constructive advice and or opinions and hope I can find the strength to presude my point of view when someone disagrees.</p><p>Thats the best I can do.</p>

[Gnobrin]

<p>If threads like this are constructive, they're listened to.  Bickering is indeed the single easiest way for a post to be ignored, since development staff's time is more important then reading though 10 pages of bickering and back-biting.  If you have evidence to issue, please post it.  If you're here to simply compare classes, please leave your towel out of this ring, to ensure that it does not spark the rebuttals that DON'T help the matter.</p><p>~Gnobrin!</p>

[Jaale]

I understand what everyone is saying. I love my Pally. I love to see others doing well. I hate it when naysayers come in and are down on Pally's. Sometimes it feels like we are shouting at the sky to get something changed. Recently I've just come back to the boards, I've seen that things for Pallys are taking an upturn, bit more DPS, bit more utility, and generally more helpful changes to get Pally's doing what it is that they want to do. Personally I want to tank, I know others that like to heal and some that go for max DPS. What we should do is celebrate the Pally's and I hope i'm seeing the first glimmers of dawn. From the Dev's? I would reverently request that they make a bit more of a show on the boards. Give us something to rally round. Even if it's just a one line saying "interesting point" I like the up swing people are trying to make. there are still trolls who are trying to push buttons, I'm going to ignore them, I'm sure most know who they are, if I had an /ignore for the boards then I would use it <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> More good, more positive, More Paladin.

[Rocksthemic]

<p>sure a paladin can tank, and it can dps,, but guardians and beserkers do both better. they get more freestanding mitigation and defense than a paladin, and thier avoidance is also higher.. </p> Sorry Chop... you're dead wrong here. The mitigation bonuses that a guardian or berserker have over paladins are VERY small with diminishing returns. The only thing a zerker or guardian have over a paladin as far as avoidance is a bit more parry (which is easily capped with adornments and the proper group set up) In addition.... Paladins have the BEST avoidance vs epics in the game. A paladin with a tower shield and specced down the hero line will have a substantially higher block chance. That is the BEST form avoidance vs epic mobs. That is not just an opinion, it is fact and game mechanics. There are some tweaks the paladin class can use... but to say we're broken because they cannot PvP well solo is a falsehood, imo

[Seomon]

There really needs to be PvP forums for classes, and PvE forums for classes. I give 2 [Removed for Content] about PvP, but others care. I think we're fine right where we are. Asking for an increase in any area will probably lead to a nerd in another area.

[Seffrid]

<cite>Seomon wrote:</cite><blockquote> Asking for an increase in any area will probably lead to a nerd in another area.</blockquote><p>I think you mean "nerf".</p><p>Then again, you could be right...<img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" />!</p>

[Rocksthemic]

It will only lead to a nerd in other area's if Seomon escapes from his enclosure again. I told them about letting you out !

[ChopStix]

<cite>Rocksthemic wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>sure a paladin can tank, and it can dps,, but guardians and beserkers do both better. they get more freestanding mitigation and defense than a paladin, and thier avoidance is also higher..</p>Sorry Chop... you're dead wrong here. The mitigation bonuses that a guardian or berserker have over paladins are VERY small with diminishing returns. The only thing a zerker or guardian have over a paladin as far as avoidance is a bit more parry (which is easily capped with adornments and the proper group set up)In addition.... Paladins have the BEST avoidance vs epics in the game. A paladin with a tower shield and specced down the hero line will have a substantially higher block chance. That is the BEST form avoidance vs epic mobs. That is not just an opinion, it is fact and game mechanics.There are some tweaks the paladin class can use... but to say we're broken because they cannot PvP well solo is a falsehood, imo</blockquote><p>and what did i say?  more mitigation, which is correct.. and more defense which is correct...  yes paladins do get % to block that is a little better, like 2% when you break it down, and paladins parry skill is far lower than a guardian or beserker in turn lowering the paladins overall avoidance, and dps<- yes dps, when you parry as a guardian and beserker you have a chance at an attack.. and a paladins parry is far lower, not just a little lower.. even with 2% parry adorns and if pallys have so much of that epic only avoidance which is suppose to be +block %, why do pallys get hit so freakin hard by epics? go figure.. </p><p> evidently  you havent seen the parses a paladin put up a few months ago comparing his guardian with his paladin, the guardian absorbed so much more damage it was stupid.. but yet you say i'm wrong?  go figure</p><p> i said all of that..   yet you say i'm wrong?  this is the reason this board is all screwed up.. </p><p>  people put in thier thoughts on a class that they've played for a while [over a year], tanking labs lyceum and deathtoll, you would think they would know,  but yet people want to try and say your wrong in the matter. it happens every [Removed for Content] time.....  tell me i'm wrong, i know i'm right, because i have a zerker and a paladin..</p><p>your wrong  rocsthemic, you need to play a different class to see the difference</p>

[Echgar]

People do not like to be told they are "wrong".  As evidenced in many of the threads on this forum recently, it begins with simple disagreement and leads to personal attacks, insults, and namecalling that ends up being moderated as the <a href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?topic_id=176" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">forum rules</a> prohibit that kind of behavior.Rather than focusing on chest thumping and declaring each other as "wrong" to ratchet up the tension here, I suggest starting with what you agree on.  When you get to things you disagree on, avoid sweeping generalities that are easily misinterpreted based on circumstance.  You all have a wealth of knowledge, but the worst thing to do is hold the belief that you know everything.Come on folks -- you all are better than this.  As Gnobrin has already stated, bickering is the easiest way for a post to be ignored.  Find ways of working constructively on your differences instead of continuing to one-up each other in a war of words.

[Rob89]

I Tanked alot. On a paladin, Berserker, Guardian and Bruiser. Can be done on all classes no doubt. Tanking as a Crusader is a challenge, but fun. I knew that when i created my paladin. Im very satisfied with the paladin as it is now. I raid endgame content. Ive tanked most stuff on my paladin. I can do higher dps then the Berserker if i really want to. Who cares? So its all even. Paladin Class works fine atm. And [Removed for Content] fun to play also i must say. This is said from a full fabled paladin raiding endgame, Endgame Paladins works perfect. There is stuff i would like us to get. But it would make us abit overpopwered. As i said ive played all classes and i think SoE wants to keep us pretty even. As it is now i dont really need any upgrades. Im doing fine as it is. And paladins low avoidance? Nah 60%-62% selfbuffed is enough dont you think? in tank gear.

[Rocksthemic]

Ok, I will agree that guardians and zerkers get higher mitigation, and overall higher avoidance numbers. However, with game mechanics the way they are currently, block is the BEST form of avoidance vs epic mobs. There is no dispute on this fact I believe? Ok. Now the class with the HIGHEST BLOCK % is? This is one of the greatest hook ups of all times from SoE to the paladin community. If you do not have a top end shield with block adornments and hero line, you cannot fully appreciate the awesome power of this. With proper gear you can get 33% block or higher. That is almost a full 1/3 of dmg from epic mobs that does not touch you at all! We as paladins do quite well tanking epics. We just do it differently. I firmly believe that we are fine in most respects. However. I will say there are a few things that I feel could be changed to make the paladin perfect. Make LoH a % based heal --- Perhaps 50%, with the ability through AA to increase it to 60 or 70%. (I saw somewhere someone had suggested 100% with AA, but that would be severely overpowered, even every 15 minutes, imo) Change our self only heal to a ward instead of a heal --- This heal is somewhat useful for group situations, useful for solo as it stands now somewhat... but for raiding it fails quit miserably. 3 seconds in a tanking situation is WAY too long for a heal to cast. If you truly need that heal, you're dead before 3 seconds are up. If it's just spike dmg, you will be healed before 3 seconds are up, thus making that heal one that is very rarely used on raids, or if it IS used, it is wasted more than half the time. Our death spell --- god I can't even think of the name of this spell at the moment, because I have repressed it deep inside. This spell is so horrible in design and implementation that it isn't even funny. Our MAIN aggro tool as paladins is amends.... and yet if we die and use this spell to bring us back to life (which why would we use it really unless we weren't tanking? I could see throwing it up maybe if the raid was about to wipe... Oh wait, we would just die again because it only lowers on hate list, doesn't wipe hate. GFG this spell makes me wanna scream) Oh, where was I? Yeah... our death spell... Please at least remove the stifle and hate reduction part of it. That would allow us to re-cast amends, buff ourselves, and not have to watch everyone die before we had any hope of getting aggro again.

[Boethius_Permafrost]

<span class="postbody">parses a paladin put up a few months ago comparing his guardian with his paladinThat was a long time ago, on a different combat system which was mitigation based, and before class achievement trees.  The only comparison parse since then is different.</span>

[Steve11418]

<p>I don't want to get flamed... I just wanted to say you Pallys are an awesome class.</p><p>I have a 45 Pally and a 70 Raiding Guard... My main toon however is a 70 Raiding Swashy.</p><p>In my guild my Guard is a backup Tank... our MT is a Pally... our OT/MA is a Pally... and guess who the next backup is? A Pally.</p><p>Our guild has always raided with a Pally MT and have learned to play that way... sub in another class and nothing go's as well as we have all learned to do it with a Pally.</p><p>The problem is that a lot of guilds are accustomed to using a Guard... There is no reason a Pally cannot do it just as well if everyone learns how to play nice in a raid with a Pally.</p><p>No one class makes the difference is a raid...</p><p>There is nothing like going full DPS on the pull... feeling all warm a fuzzy knowing amends is on you.</p><p>P.S I am not saying there is nothing wrong with you class... just remember that every class community has a list of things they would like fixed / enhanced on there class.</p>

[Excalibre33]

<p>Those that <b>can</b>, will. Those that <b>can not</b>, will loose an opportunity if they are unwilling to embrace those that <b>can</b>.</p><p>I am truly  inspired by Jal's post. Both the "<b>cans</b>" and the "<b>can'ts</b>" have valid points, even if the posts have not been entirely constructive. I'm sorry for my negative contribution to the Paladin community. If you can be forgiving, I'll try to make up for what was lost in my frustration by focusing on improvement and less beligerent posting.</p><p>Thanks for all of the constructive posts folks.</p>

[Demoley]

<cite>ChopStix wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Rocksthemic wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>sure a paladin can tank, and it can dps,, but guardians and beserkers do both better. they get more freestanding mitigation and defense than a paladin, and thier avoidance is also higher..</p>Sorry Chop... you're dead wrong here. The mitigation bonuses that a guardian or berserker have over paladins are VERY small with diminishing returns. The only thing a zerker or guardian have over a paladin as far as avoidance is a bit more parry (which is easily capped with adornments and the proper group set up)In addition.... Paladins have the BEST avoidance vs epics in the game. A paladin with a tower shield and specced down the hero line will have a substantially higher block chance. That is the BEST form avoidance vs epic mobs. That is not just an opinion, it is fact and game mechanics.There are some tweaks the paladin class can use... but to say we're broken because they cannot PvP well solo is a falsehood, imo</blockquote><p>and what did i say?  more mitigation, which is correct.. and more defense which is correct...  yes paladins do get % to block that is a little better, like 2% when you break it down, and paladins parry skill is far lower than a guardian or beserker in turn lowering the paladins overall avoidance, and dps<- yes dps, when you parry as a guardian and beserker you have a chance at an attack.. and a paladins parry is far lower, not just a little lower.. even with 2% parry adorns and if pallys have so much of that epic only avoidance which is suppose to be +block %, why do pallys get hit so freakin hard by epics? go figure.. </p><p> evidently  you havent seen the parses a paladin put up a few months ago comparing his guardian with his paladin, the guardian absorbed so much more damage it was stupid.. but yet you say i'm wrong?  go figure</p><p> i said all of that..   yet you say i'm wrong?  this is the reason this board is all screwed up.. </p><p>  people put in thier thoughts on a class that they've played for a while [over a year], tanking labs lyceum and deathtoll, you would think they would know,  but yet people want to try and say your wrong in the matter. it happens every [I cannot control my vocabulary] time.....  tell me i'm wrong, i know i'm right, because i have a zerker and a paladin..</p><p>your wrong  rocsthemic, you need to play a different class to see the difference</p></blockquote>first off, mentioning KoS zones is out dated info, we are at the latter end of eof, 2nd because you play both it doesnt really show much, trust me, ive tanked everything our guard has, our zerker has, with the right gear, with the right group set up it all works out just fine. imo your allowed your opinion do i agree with it no, do i think its incorrect yes. playing a different class wont make people feel they are wrong, but watching top end raiders killing contested will let people see what each class can really do not kos content that a mage can tank these days

[Anavron Ta]

I have been playing a paly since the start of the game - and no matter what changes have come down from SOE - I try just to roll with the punchesand keep having fun. Sorry I don't post much - to busy playing the game. After reading a lot of threads in the forums about - the stuff that has been bothering folks - the thing I find missing from a lot of posts is the "fun" factor. Sure you rolled our toon to be a tank - you can tank - you just need adifferent group set up then the zek or a guard. Maybe we could get a thread started on how different guilds set up their raid groups or something?As far as problems with the Paladin as a class - and the direction it seems to be going - I can't really add to that - I don't really have a "feel" on stuff that different people might see as a problem. I wish that I had a little more dps, that my ward was higher, heals didn't get interrupted, and that my avoidance was easier to raise. I dunno guys and gals.

[ChopStix]

<cite>Virutis@Kithicor wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>ChopStix wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Rocksthemic wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>sure a paladin can tank, and it can dps,, but guardians and beserkers do both better. they get more freestanding mitigation and defense than a paladin, and thier avoidance is also higher..</p>Sorry Chop... you're dead wrong here. The mitigation bonuses that a guardian or berserker have over paladins are VERY small with diminishing returns. The only thing a zerker or guardian have over a paladin as far as avoidance is a bit more parry (which is easily capped with adornments and the proper group set up)In addition.... Paladins have the BEST avoidance vs epics in the game. A paladin with a tower shield and specced down the hero line will have a substantially higher block chance. That is the BEST form avoidance vs epic mobs. That is not just an opinion, it is fact and game mechanics.There are some tweaks the paladin class can use... but to say we're broken because they cannot PvP well solo is a falsehood, imo</blockquote><p>and what did i say?  more mitigation, which is correct.. and more defense which is correct...  yes paladins do get % to block that is a little better, like 2% when you break it down, and paladins parry skill is far lower than a guardian or beserker in turn lowering the paladins overall avoidance, and dps<- yes dps, when you parry as a guardian and beserker you have a chance at an attack.. and a paladins parry is far lower, not just a little lower.. even with 2% parry adorns and if pallys have so much of that epic only avoidance which is suppose to be +block %, why do pallys get hit so freakin hard by epics? go figure.. </p><p> evidently  you havent seen the parses a paladin put up a few months ago comparing his guardian with his paladin, the guardian absorbed so much more damage it was stupid.. but yet you say i'm wrong?  go figure</p><p> i said all of that..   yet you say i'm wrong?  this is the reason this board is all screwed up.. </p><p>  people put in thier thoughts on a class that they've played for a while [over a year], tanking labs lyceum and deathtoll, you would think they would know,  but yet people want to try and say your wrong in the matter. it happens every [I cannot control my vocabulary] time.....  tell me i'm wrong, i know i'm right, because i have a zerker and a paladin..</p><p>your wrong  rocsthemic, you need to play a different class to see the difference</p></blockquote>first off, mentioning KoS zones is out dated info, we are at the latter end of eof, 2nd because you play both it doesnt really show much, trust me, ive tanked everything our guard has, our zerker has, with the right gear, with the right group set up it all works out just fine. imo your allowed your opinion do i agree with it no, do i think its incorrect yes. playing a different class wont make people feel they are wrong, but watching top end raiders killing contested will let people see what each class can really do not kos content that a mage can tank these days</blockquote><p>did i ever say paladins couldnt tank?  again, no i didnt!!!!</p><p>i have seen it with my own eyes many times over, any mob that a guardian or beserker tanks a paladin has a harder time tanking it. however you want to put it..  since post eof it has gotten better for paladins but i still dont think they are on par with guardians and beserkers.</p>

[Demoley]

we are in our own right, guards have better surviability we have better hate gain, its a fair trade off, cant have both can you? and zerkers have dps, yet we can match most zerkers if we are played right, all in all things are well balanced if you know the class, if you dont sorry but id be more than glad to answer your questions, just /pm me or send me a tell kithicor.virutis

[Excalibre33]

<cite>ChopStix wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>did i ever say paladins couldnt tank?  again, no i didnt!!!!</p><p>i have seen it with my own eyes many times over, any mob that a guardian or beserker tanks a paladin has a harder time tanking it. however you want to put it..  since post eof it has gotten better for paladins but i still dont think they are on par with guardians and beserkers.</p></blockquote><p>That is your opinion. </p><p>I am under the impression that you do not need to be, or want to be, convinced otherwise and we should expect the same courtesy to those with strong opinions that contradict yours?</p>

[Theren]

I have played a Guardian Paladin and Berserker all mainly group setup as the warriors are in their 50's. I may not be an expert on all things for warriors but for me Paladin is the funnest. I love the tools we are given to tank, we do not need tower of stone or stronger wards if we can just pull it together and work on getting better as a player.  I have been in a 3 pally group that was taking on upper level instances and did very well.I  guess I just really enjoy a challenge. Not that being a Warrior tank is any easier I'm not saying that, but I just love the adaptability of the class. At first I was really starting to hate Paladin, but then I came on to these forums read what the masters of the class had to say to better the class and observed the effort from Paladins like Virutis Wozamil Steel and Jalathan to name drop a few. This class is not broke to me it is incredibly fun.**any kiss @-$ing was not intentional =P**

[Drakehea]

<p>Pallies are the best overall tanks in the game if you can play them.And i dont have trouble pvping 1v1 either.</p><p><span style="font-size: medium;">And as a side note will the people with pallys that say they are no good please delete the toon and reroll something a little easyer for them to play.</span><span style="font-size: x-small;">You put the time in and learn the class Pallys are uber.I've played the class for 18 months now and nothing comes close to the fun i have with my Pally</span></p>

[memmons]

<p>Hello fellow pallies,</p><p>I have been reading these forums for years and have yet to post, but here it goes.</p><p>Pallies have far better tanking capacity than most people know, not only that, the pally is one of the few classes that can fill more than one spot in a group or raid. to remember soloing, grouping and raiding are all far different acts from one another. i have done all 3 with out a single gripe. soloing takes DPS and Mit. grouping - give me a coercer, dirge and or ranger and no one can pull agro from me - its all in the set up, zerkers, guards and sks are all set up to take hate with tuants, and spells - the pally can take it without even leaving auto attack ( i have proved it to my guard friends) have all the scouts transfer there hate to the coercer or mage and you amends the mage - promise you will hold the agro. now this may play different once adds come in but then you have 7 AoE to gather up all the mobs around you. Raids are far more tougher, raids are intended by design for organizational skills of all classes working together - when you feel alone in a raid or that you can do better by yourself then the raid will not work, this is proven in the EoF expansion zones EH and FT - where grps must work together to off tank adds and remain in certain ranges to be effective, unlike older raid zones where healers and mages keep distance and all dps in on the name while a tank holds agro. pallies have a far better balanced class than any others, yes i would like to FD when some else did something wrong, yes i would like to be able to heal like a warden - but this is not our design. first thing to learn about the pally is how to communicate with your grp and help them understand how you work - most people think of you as a cross between a zerker and guard with some heals, this is why we get a bad rap in grps and raids, education can fix that. the only thing i see wrong with the pally is Divine Favor is bugged. Pally is a great class but not at all the easiest, it is for the dedicated not the person who wants to be worshipped as "I'M the BEST"- becuase EQ was never designed to have a BEST class. BEST is a degree of comparison - what are you comparing to?</p><p><a href="http://eq2players.station.sony.com/signature?characterId=343557108" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">http://eq2players.station.sony.com/...terId=343557108</a></p>

[Demoley]

<cite>memmons wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Hello fellow pallies,</p><p>I have been reading these forums for years and have yet to post, but here it goes.</p><p>Pallies have far better tanking capacity than most people know, not only that, the pally is one of the few classes that can fill more than one spot in a group or raid. to remember soloing, grouping and raiding are all far different acts from one another. i have done all 3 with out a single gripe. soloing takes DPS and Mit. grouping - give me a coercer, dirge and or ranger and no one can pull agro from me - its all in the set up, zerkers, guards and sks are all set up to take hate with tuants, and spells - the pally can take it without even leaving auto attack ( i have proved it to my guard friends) have all the scouts transfer there hate to the coercer or mage and you amends the mage - promise you will hold the agro. now this may play different once adds come in but then you have 7 AoE to gather up all the mobs around you. Raids are far more tougher, raids are intended by design for organizational skills of all classes working together - when you feel alone in a raid or that you can do better by yourself then the raid will not work, this is proven in the EoF expansion zones EH and FT - where grps must work together to off tank adds and remain in certain ranges to be effective, unlike older raid zones where healers and mages keep distance and all dps in on the name while a tank holds agro. pallies have a far better balanced class than any others, yes i would like to FD when some else did something wrong, yes i would like to be able to heal like a warden - but this is not our design. first thing to learn about the pally is how to communicate with your grp and help them understand how you work - most people think of you as a cross between a zerker and guard with some heals, this is why we get a bad rap in grps and raids, education can fix that. the only thing i see wrong with the pally is Divine Favor is bugged. Pally is a great class but not at all the easiest, it is for the dedicated not the person who wants to be worshipped as "I'M the BEST"- becuase EQ was never designed to have a BEST class. BEST is a degree of comparison - what are you comparing to?</p><p><a rel="nofollow" href="http://eq2players.station.sony.com/signature?characterId=343557108" target="_blank">http://eq2players.station.sony.com/...terId=343557108</a></p></blockquote>wow scouts hate on mages with you amendsing them i had to laugh, what ever works for you thoug

[NANEEJE]

MY 2cp WORTH!!! Instead of saying pallys can or cant tank, cause that is not the question, how about saying can YOU tank or not tank? That is what it boils down to... 5th time tanking for me, and after i keep stealing aggro, they say hey, why dont you just tank cause i cant keep aggro. ( casual groups, and i always try to let the other class tank first, I need to keep my amends skills up.) Well, I am finding out that i spent my money wisely,and I play my paly well. With 2,600 hit points at level 31, I havent even seen a guardian with that many yet that i have grouped with. When a group forms, I ask how many hit points does the main tank have, and I always have more. Another group had a paly as a main tank at 30 with 1,900 hit points, huh? ahhh! power leveler, I see now. Play your character well! apply what you learn in these awesome threads, and just be nice, and go out there, and prove what you say here, just prove it nicely, and we shall get the respect we deserve for playing the best class in the game. ( i mean the most fun and challenging)

[Ozgood]

<p>O.k. I will weigh in here, even though the Pally is not my main.  I am impressed by having two moderators touch this thread, so I will take the time and address the issues as I see them.  Again, they asked for specific examples, so people should quit talking in generalizations.</p><p>I was left a Pally from a friend of mine.  He had played one to 70 on AB and had one Nagafen that was 28, with all masters, MC or fabled gear on.  Many of you don't want to talk about PvP, so I will simply give you my observations.</p><p>I have played every class in the game to a decent level.  I am not a master, but like to do research to understand the class for me.  The pally was surprisingly fun for me.</p><p>Problem is; while it seemed versatile and flexible, it didn't seem good at anything.  And hey, there are always classes that can do a little of everything just not well, making them well rounded.  My experience was however, that they did everything worse than average.  I will give you some examples:</p><p>Pally tank specced versus a Swashy sta speced as an off tank.  Weird comparision, I know, but think about it.</p><p>Mystic with Combat arts and crits versus Pally in Autoattack and CA dps.   Again, weird comparision.</p><p>Templar or Inq DPS specced versus a Pally DPS specced.  Now, here you have me as a INQ and Temp have primary roles of healing and not tanking.</p><p>TO be painfully specific (PVE):</p><p>Pally DPS is the worst of all the "tanks" DPS specced.</p><p>Pally Mit seems higher, but yet they seem to get hit more than all the rest of the "tanks"</p><p>Pally power power seems to drain quicker as they have to spam CAs more and heals more to still be in last place.</p><p>Pallies can solo, but no root and lack of utility make them a non-defined class.</p><p>The devs ask us to make examples, I ask them, what is the point of the pally class?  What is their role?  Where do they excel?  From my POV, the answer is no where.</p><p>SO ARE THEY BROKE?</p><p>No, I didn't say that!  I think they need a class defining ability(s) that sets them apart.  Right now they need more AA's than almost all classes to even show what they can be.   Thats not fair.  Lay hands doesn't do that on a long timer.  Maybe stuns, better group buffs or a perma pet that is a fledgling pally with lesser spells.  I don't know.  The point is that they really don't bring much of that, "I have to have one" to any group.</p><p>In PvP:</p><p>The heals are slow</p><p>They get interrupted all the time</p><p>LOH is a joke and heavily mitigated.</p><p>The plate armor and buffs get torn through by green scouts with no problem</p><p>The auto attack DPS is pathetic.</p><p>Taunts are nice though.</p><p>Believe it or not, I think this sums up the class.  I think the pally is supposed to be a cross between a healer and a tank.  With all the healers with tank specs it makes them a little un-unique.  On top of that, healers are tough to beat in PvP and tanks are a pain....</p><p>Pallies are pretty easy for most classes.  There are some pallies in great situations that know all the right combos and they do o.k.  Whereas these people behind the keyboards of other classes would dominate.  That shows the state of affairs of the pally in my opinion.</p>

[Demoley]

<cite>Ozgood@Vox wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>O.k. I will weigh in here, even though the Pally is not my main.  I am impressed by having two moderators touch this thread, so I will take the time and address the issues as I see them.  Again, they asked for specific examples, so people should quit talking in generalizations.</p><p>I was left a Pally from a friend of mine.  He had played one to 70 on AB and had one Nagafen that was 28, with all masters, MC or fabled gear on.  Many of you don't want to talk about PvP, so I will simply give you my observations.</p><p>I have played every class in the game to a decent level.  I am not a master, but like to do research to understand the class for me.  The pally was surprisingly fun for me.</p><p>Problem is; while it seemed versatile and flexible, it didn't seem good at anything.  And hey, there are always classes that can do a little of everything just not well, making them well rounded.  My experience was however, that they did everything worse than average.  I will give you some examples:</p><p>Pally tank specced versus a Swashy sta speced as an off tank.  Weird comparision, I know, but think about it.</p><p>Mystic with Combat arts and crits versus Pally in Autoattack and CA dps.   Again, weird comparision.</p><p>Templar or Inq DPS specced versus a Pally DPS specced.  Now, here you have me as a INQ and Temp have primary roles of healing and not tanking.</p><p>TO be painfully specific (PVE):</p><p>Pally DPS is the worst of all the "tanks" DPS specced.</p><p>Pally Mit seems higher, but yet they seem to get hit more than all the rest of the "tanks"</p><p>Pally power power seems to drain quicker as they have to spam CAs more and heals more to still be in last place.</p><p>Pallies can solo, but no root and lack of utility make them a non-defined class.</p><p>The devs ask us to make examples, I ask them, what is the point of the pally class?  What is their role?  Where do they excel?  From my POV, the answer is no where.</p><p>SO ARE THEY BROKE?</p><p>No, I didn't say that!  I think they need a class defining ability(s) that sets them apart.  Right now they need more AA's than almost all classes to even show what they can be.   Thats not fair.  Lay hands doesn't do that on a long timer.  Maybe stuns, better group buffs or a perma pet that is a fledgling pally with lesser spells.  I don't know.  The point is that they really don't bring much of that, "I have to have one" to any group.</p><p>In PvP:</p><p>The heals are slow</p><p>They get interrupted all the time</p><p>LOH is a joke and heavily mitigated.</p><p>The plate armor and buffs get torn through by green scouts with no problem</p><p>The auto attack DPS is pathetic.</p><p>Taunts are nice though.</p><p>Believe it or not, I think this sums up the class.  I think the pally is supposed to be a cross between a healer and a tank.  With all the healers with tank specs it makes them a little un-unique.  On top of that, healers are tough to beat in PvP and tanks are a pain....</p><p>Pallies are pretty easy for most classes.  There are some pallies in great situations that know all the right combos and they do o.k.  Whereas these people behind the keyboards of other classes would dominate.  That shows the state of affairs of the pally in my opinion.</p></blockquote>HAHAHAHAHAHA we dont excell hahahahahaha im in tears we own if played right, dps spec'd pallies can stand up with dps zerkers with right group sets ups, ae is where we excel, amends = best aggro in game, with right gear can get up to 37% block which is the best uncontested avoid in the game, man, good observations though,

[Buzzing]

<p>I feel like I just walked into a war zone.</p><p>I am in fact a pali MT for my guild.</p><p>I tank with about half a PU because my guild is still growing.</p><p>I love it, they love it and honestly I know for a fact we can do what ever any of the other tanks can do just in a different way. If the mob is dead at the end of the fight does it really matter if you had to heal yourself and use a mass hitting DPS to keep agro or stay alive? Nope... The [Removed for Content] guy is dead so who gives a flying leap how he died. You get your loot and you go home with a smile on your face.</p><p>Do I take more damage? Sure but I am a half a healer in the main tank group to help keep me alive and I hold agro better meaning the mob will die faster and I won't be taking the beating for as long. Again... If we can kill the mob time and time again, who cares how we do it? I don't feel [Removed for Content] for not having it easy to get my dps to a zerkers level, I have amends and don't lose agro even parsing 700. That means I don't need the dps. Can I boost my mit for 30 seconds? Nope... would it save me it the fight was hitting the fan? Nope... Can I live as well on the pull of a mob as a guard? Divine Aura = can't die on pull if needed and if that is where it is most important who the hell cares about the rest? We have the absolute best uncontested avoid in the game bar none so the rest of the fight will actually be easier then with a guard or zerk. The reason we take more spike damage is because they do have temp buffs the help to mellow it out and we just flat avoid some hits instead. Honestly if you don't like your pali give and up and shut up. Go roll a guard and we'll continue to prove you wrong as we always have.</p><p>Moral of the story being... </p><p>Paladins own!!!!! Nuff said </p>

[Excalibre33]

<p>...P...</p><p>...F...</p><p>...R...</p>

[Faelgalad]

<p><b>Here my comparision base.</b> </p><p>I'am the raidleader of "Mondblut" from the guild "Neumond" on Innovation Server (German Server). </p><p>I have a level 70 Paladin KoS Equipped with minor Adornment equipment. Have tanked T5 for my Raid and jump in on T7 when our Guards are busy with Reallife. Normaly I sit in a Troubadour leading my forces. </p><p>I have tanked for Dubh Sian once, an other Raidcom where one of our Guild Tanks is the Maintank, the same Tank is the Trainer/Instructor of my two Guardians in my Raid . From time to time I helped Pick Up Raids as Raid MT or OT. </p><p>I've playing my Paladin since two years, leading my raid since 14 months. </p><p><b>Negative Game Mechanics for Paladins:</b> </p><p>- <b>Paladin needs an non-buffing sixth member in his group</b>. Mostly an Sorc or Warlord. This spot cannot be used by an Class like Coercer or Illusionist, which is a huge disadvantage in EoF zones. Or when used by Coercer/Illusinist, Aggro Management is disadvantagous. An Illusionist skilled on Damage can circumvent this slightly. To get rid of this, Amend should be Raidwide. So we could take an Wizard in Mage Group, which is a better, more mana effizient Partner and we are no longer in the "sixth MT Member trap". </p><p>- <b>Most Enemies are Single Mobs</b>. Berserker and Guardians work better against these kind. So the whole arsenal of Area Attacks can't be brought to an Advantage. </p><p>- <b>Most classes are more geared for single target damage</b>. So they are less compatible with Paladins. A Paladin as an Tank would work best with a lot of Warlocks and other Paladins. </p><p>- So with enemy encounters and most classes not geared for Mass Fighting, Paladin is less usefull. You don't need a Machine Gun, when an enemy tank appoaches, as an Tank is useless, when swarmed by masses of infantry, to make it pictural. </p><p>- Paladin hat quite not enough special effects on their Attacks. And these Attacks are to weak to snatch Damage. </p><p>- <b>Buff Trap</b>. A dirge doesn't boost our Spell Damage, a Troubadour boost not our Melee and Defense. A Guardian ist happy with an Dirge, we would need an mix of both. </p><p>- <b>Equipment Traps:</b>  </p><p>Same with Equipment, we would need "Class-Boosts" in all Equipment, so when a piese of armor hast Strenght, Stamina, Agiltity, it should have for Paladins the same value also in Int and Wis and Shadowknights should have it in Intelligence to counter the 5-Attribute Trap. </p><p>Armor of Example of this (Guardian): Strenght 30, Agility 20, Stamina 25</p><p>Same Armor with Classboost Paladin (Strength+Agility+Stamina = 75 :3 = 25): Strength 30, Agility 20, Stamina 25, Wisdom 25, Intelligenze 25</p><p>Same Armor with Classboost Shadowknight (Strength+Agility+Stamina = 75 :3 = 25): Strength 30, Agility 20, Stamina 25, Intelligenze 25</p><p>- <b>Achivement Traps:</b> A Guardian boosts his melee critical chance with achivment an is a happy little killing machine. One skill = 100% of all Attack options. </p><p>A Paladin needs to skill melee and spell critical! Skill only one, and you have not skilled 100% of your attack options. </p><p>- <b>Spell Trap</b></p><p>Spells get interrupted, interruption means deficit in Aggro Managment. This disadvantage is not compensated with higher Damage in comparision to the four other Tank classes. So shorten all Spell Casting Times significant!</p><p><b>Questions:</b> - Why have Paladins no skills more based on their shields?</p><p>- Why have we no Double Attack?</p><p><b>Where is the magic?</b></p><p>- Guardians, Reinforcement, getting back Aggro, Tower of Stone, Stonesphere....</p><p>Beyond Amend, which are the amazing abilities for an Paladin? And Amend is only so good as the Amend Partner and only as bad, as it blocks the sixth spot in the MT Group. SOE, give us "magic" the "sense of wonder". The feeling of an marching force of divine will. </p><p><b><span style="font-size: large;">WE ARE FIGHTERS WITH AN CAUSE, NOT PARAMEDICS WITH AN SWORD!!!</span></b></p>

[Demoley]

<cite>Faelgalad wrote:</cite><blockquote><p><b>Here my comparision base.</b> </p><p>I'am the raidleader of "Mondblut" from the guild "Neumond" on Innovation Server (German Server). </p><p>I have a level 70 Paladin KoS Equipped with minor Adornment equipment. Have tanked T5 for my Raid and jump in on T7 when our Guards are busy with Reallife. Normaly I sit in a Troubadour leading my forces. </p><p>I have tanked for Dubh Sian once, an other Raidcom where one of our Guild Tanks is the Maintank, the same Tank is the Trainer/Instructor of my two Guardians in my Raid . From time to time I helped Pick Up Raids as Raid MT or OT. </p><p>I've playing my Paladin since two years, leading my raid since 14 months. </p><p><b>Negative Game Mechanics for Paladins:</b> </p><p>- <b>Paladin needs an non-buffing sixth member in his group</b>. Mostly an Sorc or Warlord. This spot cannot be used by an Class like Coercer or Illusionist, which is a huge disadvantage in EoF zones. Or when used by Coercer/Illusinist, Aggro Management is disadvantagous. An Illusionist skilled on Damage can circumvent this slightly. To get rid of this, Amend should be Raidwide. So we could take an Wizard in Mage Group, which is a better, more mana effizient Partner and we are no longer in the "sixth MT Member trap". </p><p>- <b>Most Enemies are Single Mobs</b>. Berserker and Guardians work better against these kind. So the whole arsenal of Area Attacks can't be brought to an Advantage. </p><p>- <b>Most classes are more geared for single target damage</b>. So they are less compatible with Paladins. A Paladin as an Tank would work best with a lot of Warlocks and other Paladins. </p><p>- So with enemy encounters and most classes not geared for Mass Fighting, Paladin is less usefull. You don't need a Machine Gun, when an enemy tank appoaches, as an Tank is useless, when swarmed by masses of infantry, to make it pictural. </p><p>- Paladin hat quite not enough special effects on their Attacks. And these Attacks are to weak to snatch Damage. </p><p>- <b>Buff Trap</b>. A dirge doesn't boost our Spell Damage, a Troubadour boost not our Melee and Defense. A Guardian ist happy with an Dirge, we would need an mix of both. </p><p>- <b>Equipment Traps:</b>  </p><p>Same with Equipment, we would need "Class-Boosts" in all Equipment, so when a piese of armor hast Strenght, Stamina, Agiltity, it should have for Paladins the same value also in Int and Wis and Shadowknights should have it in Intelligence to counter the 5-Attribute Trap. </p><p>Armor of Example of this (Guardian): Strenght 30, Agility 20, Stamina 25</p><p>Same Armor with Classboost Paladin (Strength+Agility+Stamina = 75 :3 = 25): Strength 30, Agility 20, Stamina 25, Wisdom 25, Intelligenze 25</p><p>Same Armor with Classboost Shadowknight (Strength+Agility+Stamina = 75 :3 = 25): Strength 30, Agility 20, Stamina 25, Intelligenze 25</p><p>- <b>Achivement Traps:</b> A Guardian boosts his melee critical chance with achivment an is a happy little killing machine. One skill = 100% of all Attack options. </p><p>A Paladin needs to skill melee and spell critical! Skill only one, and you have not skilled 100% of your attack options. </p><p>- <b>Spell Trap</b></p><p>Spells get interrupted, interruption means deficit in Aggro Managment. This disadvantage is not compensated with higher Damage in comparision to the four other Tank classes. So shorten all Spell Casting Times significant!</p><p><b>Questions:</b> - Why have Paladins no skills more based on their shields?</p><p>- Why have we no Double Attack?</p><p><b>Where is the magic?</b></p><p>- Guardians, Reinforcement, getting back Aggro, Tower of Stone, Stonesphere....</p><p>Beyond Amend, which are the amazing abilities for an Paladin? And Amend is only so good as the Amend Partner and only as bad, as it blocks the sixth spot in the MT Group. SOE, give us "magic" the "sense of wonder". The feeling of an marching force of divine will. </p><p><b><span style="font-size: large;">WE ARE FIGHTERS WITH AN CAUSE, NOT PARAMEDICS WITH AN SWORD!!!</span></b></p></blockquote>and this is the mentality ive got banned for many times in the past do i really need to get involved in this again, so i will ask you nicely one time and one time only, please do not bring negativity to these boards, if you feel we have these disadvantages play something else, but its a cold hard fact, ive proven it many times we are vary skilled and very capable, oh btw, i roll coecer/dirge/inquis/brigand/fury alot and i never seem to have any issues, tailored made group i think not...sorry to tell you we dont need special love as you insisted

[Echgar]

<cite></cite>Someone stating their opinion about how the Paladin class could be improved, does not need to be viewed as negative, false, or anything else provided it is written in a constructive manner.  Those of you that disagree with something another poster posts are welcome to disagree provided you are constructive and respectful in doing so.I understand that some of you here are very passionate as well as very knowledgeable about the Paladin Class, but please allow others to state their opinions without being dismissive.  As experts in your field, take responsibility to educate, coach, and encourage participation here.  If you are unable to agree, agree to disagree and move onto other issues.  There is no need for the kind of chest thumping that has gone on here in the past.I would also like to encourage posters to make use of the "Report this post to a moderator" link when you see posters getting out of hand.  We are here to help keep the peace on the forums and while we would prefer to see a community operating without our intervention, we sometimes do have to step in to ensure the <a href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?topic_id=176" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">forum rules</a> are being followed.

[Demoley]

<cite>Echgar wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>Someone stating their opinion about how the Paladin class could be improved, does not need to be viewed as negative, false, or anything else provided it is written in a constructive manner.  Those of you that disagree with something another poster posts are welcome to disagree provided you are constructive and respectful in doing so.I understand that some of you here are very passionate as well as very knowledgeable about the Paladin Class, but please allow others to state their opinions without being dismissive.  As experts in your field, take responsibility to educate, coach, and encourage participation here.  If you are unable to agree, agree to disagree and move onto other issues.  There is no need for the kind of chest thumping that has gone on here in the past.I would also like to encourage posters to make use of the "Report this post to a moderator" link when you see posters getting out of hand.  We are here to help keep the peace on the forums and while we would prefer to see a community operating without our intervention, we sometimes do have to step in to ensure the <a rel="nofollow" href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?topic_id=176" target="_blank">forum rules</a> are being followed.</blockquote>and we have many times and will continue too, but alot of us have also got tired of the negativity that was here in teh recent months and have banded together to abolish it, the wrong people were getting banned imo, if people want to <b>improve</b> how they play they can come ask and <b>we'll gladly help</b> but when people come here saying were broke, we need work blah blah blah when alot of us have proven otherwise is rather annoying

[Faelgalad]

<p>Putting critic into nice words just blur the understanding of critic. Getting to the point in clear words. </p><p>And critic is necessary. </p><p>When did you lately read in a channel or mouth to mouth "Searching for Paladin for Maintank Job"? Even in "hard" heroic zones Zerkers and Guardians are prefered on our server. Our "perception" with other players has been damaged by iniate flaws of the design. That is not "negativity" but reality on my server. So when you're server is different, fine. Otherwise, it is nessessary to ask "why", what is the reason. In statistical numbers as in "perception". What does it help to be a master in crowd fighting, when there are not enough Dungeons who are crowd heavy. Poets Palace: The Return has some trash mobs in this kind. But how many multiple Epic groups like Ruy'stad Group in Lab do you know? How many difficult multi mob encounter scripts do you know? Not much. So maybe it is right to say, the Guardian and Zerker are better designed for the world we playing in. The Paladin is designed for mobs not encountered. Putting Dirges and Troubadours into one class would solve much. Or giving Troub Buffs like Swan Song a minor Melee component and Dirges a minor spell skill component. Otherwise, mix-style Fighters will allway be in trouble. </p><p>The momentary design of the Paladin is flawed for Raiding, I summed up a couple of flaws in a matter of minutes. </p><p>It is wonderful for instances, take an dirge and a warlock and kill zones in high speed. </p><p>But dungeon instances don't have those kind of enemies that exploit the weakness of Paladins, damage spikes and buffed up solo damage dealers (as you can't fit enough buffer into one group, like into an melee damage group). So getting well in dungeons don't proof anything.</p><p>On my server, not a single raidguild (the elite raiders)  uses Paladins as Main Tanks or Off Tanks. Even Berserkers are hard pressed. I know not of a single raidcom on my server using an Paladin as the Maintank. Enough Guardians arround for this job. Maybe it's short sighted, unfair. I'am in the biggest Guild on my server, leading my own raidcom, people from our guild raid arround in half a dozen or more raidcoms, ex-member of my raidcom are in leading raid guilds now. There is not a single Paladin Report as an Maintank on Innovation! Negativity? No, it's server reality. Not facing the situation cannot be a wise move. I tanked for Dubh Sian (good raidcom) with my KoS Equipped Paladin, I could easily hold until 22k DPS, but it was clear, they were used to Guardian-style tanking. </p><p>btw. the level 58 special Divine Favor should be abolished, I know not a single Paladin using this spell. Some defensive short time buff or a bunch of temp pets (like squires swinging swords) would be more useful. </p><p>I love the spirit of the Paladin, the holy fighter, the bastion of rightnous, but sadly it is not implemented. </p><p>If Sony would listen, it would either put thinks into motion, or ask for our creativity. How long did we wait for fixing Divine Aura? If a German car builder would wait so long with the complains of its customers...</p><p>I see it more harsh, Everquest is not a favor Sony does to me, it is a product I pay for. I have choosen the Paladin on the description of the game booklet. The product doesn't get to the promised stats. Read the Paladin description and ask yourself...</p>

[Excalibre33]

<p>Faelgalad, I enjoyed reading your constructive first post. I may not of entirely agreed with you but, even before the responses to it, I planned to comment on some of your educated observations as I thought you made some good points. In fact, I didn't get the impression you were entirely on the "can't" side of the fence at first. I'd like to preface this with... My reply hasn't been reworded a bit from what I was thinking after reading your first post even with the rebuttal that ensued (except for spelling).</p><p>You are correct in many of your observations being insurmountable issues that can not be overcome through better playing in today's combat mechanics (which has been subject to change abruptly) but... yes there is a but... not all of them are necessarily issues for Paladins tanking and may not need to even be addressed to help the class succeed when jockeying for a raid MT role. Some disadvantages may become advantages when put in perspective. For instance, Paladins get the option of Troub buffs seriously improving them, unlike their counterparts.</p><p>I think a defensive stance will only mutate what I feel is a genuine "can" undertone in your opinion. All classes could use improvement and this should never change or others will scream for nerfs. Paladins aren't any more "broke" than any other class and have additional advantages that you overlooked or neglected in your synopsis, although, again I think you touched on some mechanical concerns that have merit, even if they do not need to be militantly pronounced or addressed IMO.</p><p>Rest assured there are players proving many of these stigmas wrong and the class simply hasn't marketed well. Unfortunately this perception is perpetuated by generalized criticism of raid leaders about "all raiding guilds on their server" (even constructive and well meaning) that prefer to stick with Guardians when they've only dabbled with Pallys MTing when their Guards were offline. Many not giving the same attention or obsession to the success of the Paladin in it's new role on point that they did with their Guardians on a first time win. Paladins may do it differently but, we can still do it none the less. A Paladin can tank & parse as well as any tanker given the proper attention to success... and they'll probably make the heal parse to boot. /wink</p><p>A win is a win and not many argue that you can't win with a Paladin MT or OT. If they did, they'd simply be wrong. Those that "can"...will. Those that "can't"... simply haven't figured out what those that "can" are doing correctly and will miss a fantastic opportunity to improve if they are stubbornly pessimistic.</p>

[Demoley]

the paladin class has got a bad rap all the way around because most people do not understand how to play the class or they reley on strictly on amends for aggrowe make the best off tanks hands down in game with amends, and our ae dps. now to get some of hte best gear that will benefit you mostly sorry but you have to raid, and to prove to a guild they want you over a zerker you gotta be hands down balls to the wall otherwise its just a waste of time...we do not lack anything to zerkers or guards, we all have our nitch, now my guild uses all 3 and between the 3 of us nothing gets by, guard usually mting, myself and the zerker off tanking, mt goes down im usually right there. its our system and it works well for usnow if your server hates paladins so much it should be your job to step up and make them learn not be asking for a revamp or changes. maybe think about changing your spec around, changing your ideas on loot your searching for.get your block % up that will eliminate spike damage, get a nice 3.0 + 1 hander and  4.0 + 2 hander and you will see your dps rise, just choose your gear, aa, differently modify your play style you will see the class is fine i almost guarantee it.

[Rast]

<p>I tank every week for my guild on raids.  The RA I'm part of is using a paladin MT and have cleared some EoF zones using one.  Believe me, between Thar and I, we've changed a few opinions on Paladin's MTing raids.  I'm not quite as good as he is, but I (normally, I have off nights like anyone else) get the job done for what my guild wants to do.  I've only NOT cleared a zone once, and that was last night when I took over MTing part way though the zone, but by that time, the deaths and frustration were already too high to overcome...</p><p>The paladin isn't broke, the perception of the paladin is what is broke and the only way to fix it is to go out there and show people YOU don't suck.  Paladins CAN MT raids in this game, and we can do it quite well, you just have to learn to do it.  Could I play a guardian even better than the paladin?  No, the playstyle of a guardian bores me to death, the paladin keeps me engaged into what i'm doing so that I can keep on top of the whole kit and kaboodle.</p><p>I'm good at what I do and I prove it to those around me every week.  The people that run with me on a raid (I'm also the RL) have fun and that is all that really matters to me.</p>

[MikeMatsumo]

i dont ready the last posts but im here to answer something that i ready at begin.i play with a paladin in pve server for like 1 1/2 year. my opinion: paladin are just a cool class in there...now im playing like 1 year in pvp.in PVP paladin rocks. its amazing class. the only class you should have problem to 1vs1 is brigand, swash and ranges. but almost all classes have problem with that classes if they ganked you.PALADIN AND SK is pretty much the same in 1 vs 1.all depends is player skill.paladin vs any tank/healers is not a dmg fight. is a POWER fighter. so, dont try dps...dont spend your power trying do that just autoattack and spells like SMite evil, thermal shocker and stuffs that dont use power. let sk/tank/healer take you to 40%...they will start spend mana trying kill you when they see that you are almost dead...then knockback him and then heal yourself and ward until his power goes off. use potitons for power, signets, and potitions for ward you against dises and poison....takes like 8-15m for kill one good sk/healer/tank....but is pretty much easy if you learn how to make they use their power while you keep yours.thats the keyin 1vs1 you should have a really nice fighters against any class...if gear is pretty much the same 50% you kill or die. all depends about luck on crits, resists, etc. some class like dirge our troub is like 95% chance that you gonna win. how i say the problem is rangers, brigand, swash but still you can do if you Celestial Touch is up...please, stop with posts here that paladins cant kill sk because they are better...thats not true. you just need learn how to use your spells. stop pay attention in sks hp and start watch his power...believe me, i love paladin and thats why i have 2 lvl 70. i could not play with other class. and if for some reason i think  that pallys is < sk i will be the first to send mails to soe. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />" />. but thats is not true.....in my opnion paladins is THE BEST GROUP TANK. and in pvp, sk and pallys are the best tank to go in...guard/bersk sux in pvp server...that why you almost dont see one...if you guys need help about pvp and how to kill few classes try find "paladin pvp guide" in this forum here...

[Satyrfawn]

<cite>Faelgalad wrote:</cite> <blockquote><p>btw. the level 58 special Divine Favor should be abolished, I know not a single Paladin using this spell. Some defensive short time buff or a bunch of temp pets (like squires swinging swords) would be more useful. </p></blockquote>Yeah~ I think we all agree that an empty space on our hotbars would be more useful than this pos...

[Rast]

<cite>Thorsson@Everfrost wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Faelgalad wrote:</cite> <blockquote><p>btw. the level 58 special Divine Favor should be abolished, I know not a single Paladin using this spell. Some defensive short time buff or a bunch of temp pets (like squires swinging swords) would be more useful. </p></blockquote>Yeah~ I think we all agree that an empty space on our hotbars would be more useful than this pos...</blockquote>I've never wasted my money on it to be honest.

[lik]

Sry guys,  the 4 hours i have 3 nights a week to raid is very precious to me. If a Paladin was the main tank i would leave my guild. Sry, i just cant wast my time on a tank that all of a sudden thinks they can do a job as good as a Guardian " Main raid tank since launch" I ask you this---> Just for fun and giggles, If your  Life  was on the line in RL. Would you want a Guard to tank or a paladin?    I rest my case.

[Rast]

<cite>liken wrote:</cite><blockquote>Sry guys,  the 4 hours i have 3 nights a week to raid is very precious to me. If a Paladin was the main tank i would leave my guild. Sry, i just cant wast my time on a tank that all of a sudden thinks they can do a job as good as a Guardian " Main raid tank since launch" I ask you this---> Just for fun and giggles, If your  Life  was on the line in RL. Would you want a Guard to tank or a paladin?    I rest my case.</blockquote><p>then you would lose.  To be so blind to the fact that this game ISN'T the same as it's been since launch and to use concepts that have been removed and mitigated with EoF.</p><p>Right now, if my life depended upon it, I'd take a paladin.  They have superior agro control, especially against multiple targets and can take a hit nearly as well as any guardian in the game.  They typically have more hitpoints and mitigation isn't as key as it once was with the diminishing returns.  Paladins also have the ability to get the highest uncontested avoidance in the game with the hero line.</p>

[lik]

Like that guy Echgar said, Agree to disagree. The way i feel about paladins as end game raid tanks is World wide. Ill bet you only get to tank when your Guardian has already tanked the MOB a few times and is now on farm status. I know this sounds like a Bash, How many Server first's or world wide first's have been Tanked by Paladins? What MT was used to tank AOM? When a guild must have a World wide first "bragin right's" They would never ever use a paladin for 4 days of pulls and 10 plat+ repair bill. Im sure you will come up with some cool way to undermine what i said about the AOM being tanked by a guardian. But atleast give me this--> when a World wide first race is underway a guardian is the best MT hands down.

[SladeBlackstone]

I think it safe to say any time you put your faith in a CLASS and not a PLAYER as tank is sad day.  To reiterate an old argument, the tools are there to let all of the fighters tank, so it should all come down to the skill of the tank, not the class he's playing.

[OrcSlayer96]

<cite>liken wrote:</cite><blockquote>Like that guy Echgar said, Agree to disagree. The way i feel about paladins as end game raid tanks is World wide. Ill bet you only get to tank when your Guardian has already tanked the MOB a few times and is now on farm status. I know this sounds like a Bash, How many Server first's or world wide first's have been Tanked by Paladins? What MT was used to tank AOM? When a guild must have a World wide first "bragin right's" They would never ever use a paladin for 4 days of pulls and 10 plat+ repair bill. Im sure you will come up with some cool way to undermine what i said about the AOM being tanked by a guardian. But atleast give me this--> when a World wide first race is underway a guardian is the best MT hands down.</blockquote>You have a right to your opinion, but also realize your opinion is no better than ours, if you are looking for server firsts/world firsts, it is because your guild is the top of the top and has been established in the game thru the various nerfs/updates that all classes has reached.  I have always said that guardians have a advantage on single target mobs thru some survival skills like reinforcement/ tower of stone, but only somebody that has lived ina cave for the last year will discount that the diminishing returns and other policies we have lived thru has made the tanking benefits of warriors less over the paladin.  I would be willing to bet that if you took a poll of the majority of raiders out there and asked them how effective a paladin is as a OT versus other tanks you would see alot would say paladins currently have the advantage in off tanking/assist and many would say they can substitute a paladin in for a guardian when the sh@t hits the fan.  The problems paladins face is the sheer number of people that have at least a paladin as a alt and dont put the time into improving them before tanking.  Look at 90% of the raiding guild out there and you would find they like to see loot first and foremost from a raid and you also see higher end guilds looking more for a paladin to fill in on off tanking.  You can have your world firsts on a some of these mobs like AOM, we will take the thousands of raids where paladins are successfully running as OT/MT in raids both KOS and EOF generating  winning raids worth of gear for their guilds, care to compare the number of raids worth of paladins completing raid content  to the number of world first guardian raids?

[lik]

The only reason Paladins can do and are tanking KOS and EOF is that Guardians killed them first in lesser gear. It takes Guardians to tank the mob first and have the paladin get the better gear from the WW first's or sever first's. Guardians "must" tank it first to get the guild better gear. And then, only then can a paladin tank. My point is, Guardians will be tanking T8 mobs in T7 gear. Paladins will be able to tank T8 mobs once the Guardians get's the raid force their T8 gear. Paladins wont be able to tank T8 in T7 gear as well as a Guardian.

[Excalibre33]

<p>So today's can't is... drumroll... Paladins can't tank t8 epics in t7 gear and they can't ever get a WW first in the MT position?</p><p>nice.</p><p>What exactly is your objective in posting that? Prove to us [Removed for Content] Paladins that we're wasting our time with this class and should roll guardians because we don't get the shot to prove you wrong? </p><p>We'll keep playing the class and <a href="mailto:kickin'@$$" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">kickin'@$$</a>. </p><p>sorry.</p>

[OrcSlayer96]

<cite>liken wrote:</cite><blockquote>The only reason Paladins can do and are tanking KOS and EOF is that Guardians killed them first in lesser gear. It takes Guardians to tank the mob first and have the paladin get the better gear from the WW first's or sever first's. Guardians "must" tank it first to get the guild better gear. And then, only then can a paladin tank. My point is, Guardians will be tanking T8 mobs in T7 gear. Paladins will be able to tank T8 mobs once the Guardians get's the raid force their T8 gear. Paladins wont be able to tank T8 in T7 gear as well as a Guardian.</blockquote>It would help your arguement if you said what class/classes you play and what personal experience you have in the high end guilds as either a WW 1st paladin or guardian, if you are just trying to bait others with your personal opinion please stop and take this to the more general forums.  All i see is a nonomous poster that is pretty much stating that paladins are inferior tanks to guardians, maybe that is not your intent but you should be aware that is what many of us are seeing.   Most of us on this forum for paladins love our class and think we can compete against both guardians/berserkers on MTing if needed and feel we can excell them in off tanking, I am sorry you feel so strongly against that...<img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />P.S.  If you are trying to help our class then give us pointers to improve us on tanking those tier 8 encounters, otherwise your recent post is very close to gloating and has no benefits to our class, how would the guardians like if we went to their thread and gloated about Amends/Sigil giving us awesome agro control in any multimob situation?

[lik]

 Oisin says "prove to us [Removed for Content]". I didnt  call anyone a [Removed for Content] or any other cool name like that. How do i prove to you that a paladin has never Main tanked a world wide first?   I dont. It has never happend.  I play a 70 Guard--70 Illusionist-70 Defiler-70 Swashbuckler-70 paladin- 61 berserker-60 warden. Been playing this game since jan-05.  i have read most classes spells ability's aa line etc...    Im not saying Paladins should jump off a bridge, Just your not and never will be hard core WW first Main raid tanks. The same goes for saying Guards will never be the Main WW first OT. I will remain annon. i do not want cross server tells telling be im a [Removed for Content] for having an opinion.  TBH i can go ninja afk while in a group instance on my Guard, cast reinforcement 1 pbae and my free hate proc does the rest tyvm. Work's well for bio or answer the door get a drink check my E-mail etc...

[Excalibre33]

<p>Even I can call BS on this hullabaloo. My Pally MTed ftw on zones my guild's Guard struggled on... the next thing you know my Pally is sporting the MT role on new content... so we weren't WW competitive. *mmmff* /shrug </p><p>We just wanted a win for personal satisfaction and it took the right player to fill those shoes. It's the magic in the wand, not the decorations on the case.</p>

[DarkLord35]

<cite>liken wrote:</cite><blockquote>The only reason Paladins can do and are tanking KOS and EOF is that Guardians killed them first in lesser gear. It takes Guardians to tank the mob first and have the paladin get the better gear from the WW first's or sever first's. Guardians "must" tank it first to get the guild better gear. And then, only then can a paladin tank. My point is, Guardians will be tanking T8 mobs in T7 gear. Paladins will be able to tank T8 mobs once the Guardians get's the raid force their T8 gear. Paladins wont be able to tank T8 in T7 gear as well as a Guardian.</blockquote><p>This has got to be one of the stupidest post I have seen in a long time, but I'll bite.  Your statement is entirely false, what are you basing this rubbish on? Why not sign your post or put a link to your eq2player profile?  </p><p>I would just like to point out that I as a Pally MT tanked many of my previous guilds FIRST KILLS on numerous mobs while not only 1 Guard but actually had 2 Guards gearing up off of kills with me as MT in both KoS and EoF.  </p><p>P.S. appreciate it if you dont post on our forums unless you have something constructive to say, ktks</p><p> Jedod - 70th Paladin</p><p>Oops - Guk</p>

[Echgar]

Myself and other moderators/admins have had to step into this thread on several occasions now and while I think it began with the best intentions, it seems clear this thread is going nowhere fast.I understand that some of you are quite passionate about the Paladin class.  That, however, does not mean that someone with an opinion that differs from yours is trolling or doing anything wrong.  The proper way to deal with posters or posts you feel are violating the forum rules is to use the "Report this post to a moderator" link, and resist the urge to let the person have it in a reply to their post.  When you do reply with a post that attacks, insults, or namecalls them, you are violating the forum rules.