The recent battle between the can's and the can't

[Rast]

Guys, this bickering has got to stop.  I don't care what side you are on, if we keep fighting like this, noone wins. We should be looking at how can we improve the community, how can we improve the gaming life of ALL paladins, not just those of us who happen to be content.My number 1 concern is that people aren't being listened to by SoE and that breeds contempt and anger and that spills over into the forums and disrupts a community between those who can and those who can't.There are issues for Paladins, but those issues extend far beyond just one class, they are a struggle due to the way things are done in EQ2, not to any one class design. People hate paladins because it is easier to dismiss a class that you don't believe is good than to dismiss one you think is good due to the way raids are set up.You simply do NOT need more than 2 or 3 fighters on any raid and when there are 6 fighter classes, someone has to be left out. If people believe paladins suck, it is easier to dismiss them for raiding, even though we can excel in it. By proving we can excel, we make it so someone else has to be left out to be efficient. That is why I say our class doesn't need wholesale changes, becuase no matter how improved we become, it will still leave someone out.I've made a recommendation to Gnorbin on an idea and we'll see where it goes. But it is more important to build a community than it is to win a war that shouldn't exist in the first place. I know, it is hard, we pallies have had to fight and scrape for everything welve gotten, but we need to consider the big picture as much as anyone else.Without a paladin community, we will have no voice to the developers, without a voice, we might as well not exist. Winning this 'war' of yours doesn't build a community, it will tear it apart. It will simply change the dominate side, not merge the two sides together as pallies.

Hasn't anyone ever heard that in a war, there are no winners, only survivors and the dead. If you want to turn this into a war, then all that will be left is the survivers and the banned and everyone loses at that point.

[ChopStix]

well it goes like this for me..

i've played a paladin for over a year, i moth balled him and rolled a zerker, and that proved to me the difference in those 2 class's..  i also played a guardian at a friends house and the difference again is night and day..   beserkers and guardians take less damage than a paladin for some reason.. i guess its the old saying well, a paladin can heal, so they take in more damage, which is a crock of crap in my book..

also i was plaiyng my paladin today ,and for over a year now, the paladins power consumption has been broke, paladins use entirely to much power for casted spells, and i have flowing thought 18 on my pally and  flowing thought zero on my beserker, and my beserker uses less power...  but yet developers have done nothing about this..

developers come to this forum, trust me , i know they do..    do they pay attention?    NO THEY DO NOT!

and as far as the crusader class's go,  a shadow knight is far stronger in pvp than any paladin, and i hope someone says they can eat a shadowknight up with thier paladin 1v1..  i know it doesnt happen. a paladin is out of power in about 1 minute or less into the fight.. and yes thats with the flowing thought 18 that i have, and shards from a conjy, and a power potion...  this has been tested by me and a friend several times.. he has a sk and i with my paladin, and we both have about the same gear.. sk's have evac, pestilent touch, feign death.. what does a paladin get, one heal for around 3500-4k.. but yet pestilent touch can do upwards of 6k damage or more, go figure...  paladins ward needs to be even bigger, because tower of stone the guardian gets will absord far more than 1300 damage..

and also i have seen 5 gm's since ive been playing, and all were freeport class's..  ive heard of one developer started playing a paladin and got up into his 40's or 50's and never heard anything else about it. i guess he kept getting his [Removed for Content] handed to him so he quit playing it, or he seen the difference and went back to playing his guardian..

i sill have fun playing my paladin, dont get me wrong.. but as far as seriously tanking, a guardian will go farther than a paladin, and a beserker will out dps a paladin and a guardian... out of the 3 tanks the paladin is the weaker of the bunch.. sure a paladin can tank, and it can dps,, but guardians and beserkers do both better. they get more freestanding mitigation and defense than a paladin, and thier avoidance is also higher..

ive posted on the paladins so much in the past, that i got tired of it, and the developers lack of support didnt help any!

there will always be 2 sides of the fence.

[irvisscott]

Why is it that no thread can get started without someone jumping on and saying something about guardians and beserkers being better than pallys? This is a game, I enjoy my 70 pally much more than i do my 70 guard. I come here to read advice from the best paladins in the game, and while some of them might be frustrated with what they see in here, they still offer suggestions and ways to contact them for help. Some of them have said they have tanked every mob in the game. I have no reason to doubt this and if it is true there is nothing wrong with the class. If it can be done, learn to do it, be happy with what you are doing, or go play another class. If a paladin is capable of anything in the game if played to its potential, what do you want the dev's to do? Several attempts have been made on here by pallys to start positive threads about pallys. Everyone one of them has been filled with people trying to contradict the thread starter. In the future, if the thread is started to praise pallys, and you have nothing good to say, start your own. I for one will leave yours alone if you will leave the positive ones alone. If any new paladins are on this forum I would suggest you go to eq2flames for more help these days as the best and most helpful paladins are now banned from these forums or will not bother to post here anymore. Enough rambling for now, logging on to try to get better and will leave this thread to the complaintfest it will surely become.

[BigDaddy253]

Jalathan is 100% correct.  The problem is those like Jal that are passionaite about the class get frustrated for reasons that are obvious in a bunch of threads.  I'm done with it personally....after seeing a thread that provides some dam good proof about the class abilities get turned into a ban fest....I'm done.  

So, since Jal asked so nicley.....I promise from this point forward to post with only constructive advice and or opinions and hope I can find the strength to presude my point of view when someone disagrees.

Thats the best I can do.

[Gnobrin]

If threads like this are constructive, they're listened to.  Bickering is indeed the single easiest way for a post to be ignored, since development staff's time is more important then reading though 10 pages of bickering and back-biting.  If you have evidence to issue, please post it.  If you're here to simply compare classes, please leave your towel out of this ring, to ensure that it does not spark the rebuttals that DON'T help the matter.

~Gnobrin!

[Jaale]

I understand what everyone is saying. I love my Pally. I love to see others doing well. I hate it when naysayers come in and are down on Pally's. Sometimes it feels like we are shouting at the sky to get something changed. Recently I've just come back to the boards, I've seen that things for Pallys are taking an upturn, bit more DPS, bit more utility, and generally more helpful changes to get Pally's doing what it is that they want to do. Personally I want to tank, I know others that like to heal and some that go for max DPS. What we should do is celebrate the Pally's and I hope i'm seeing the first glimmers of dawn. From the Dev's? I would reverently request that they make a bit more of a show on the boards. Give us something to rally round. Even if it's just a one line saying "interesting point" I like the up swing people are trying to make. there are still trolls who are trying to push buttons, I'm going to ignore them, I'm sure most know who they are, if I had an /ignore for the boards then I would use it More good, more positive, More Paladin.

[Rocksthemic]

sure a paladin can tank, and it can dps,, but guardians and beserkers do both better. they get more freestanding mitigation and defense than a paladin, and thier avoidance is also higher..

Sorry Chop... you're dead wrong here. The mitigation bonuses that a guardian or berserker have over paladins are VERY small with diminishing returns. The only thing a zerker or guardian have over a paladin as far as avoidance is a bit more parry (which is easily capped with adornments and the proper group set up) In addition.... Paladins have the BEST avoidance vs epics in the game. A paladin with a tower shield and specced down the hero line will have a substantially higher block chance. That is the BEST form avoidance vs epic mobs. That is not just an opinion, it is fact and game mechanics. There are some tweaks the paladin class can use... but to say we're broken because they cannot PvP well solo is a falsehood, imo

[Seomon]

There really needs to be PvP forums for classes, and PvE forums for classes. I give 2 [Removed for Content] about PvP, but others care. I think we're fine right where we are. Asking for an increase in any area will probably lead to a nerd in another area.

[Seffrid]

Seomon wrote:

 Asking for an increase in any area will probably lead to a nerd in another area.

I think you mean "nerf".

Then again, you could be right...!

[Rocksthemic]

It will only lead to a nerd in other area's if Seomon escapes from his enclosure again. I told them about letting you out !

[ChopStix]

Rocksthemic wrote:

sure a paladin can tank, and it can dps,, but guardians and beserkers do both better. they get more freestanding mitigation and defense than a paladin, and thier avoidance is also higher..

Sorry Chop... you're dead wrong here. The mitigation bonuses that a guardian or berserker have over paladins are VERY small with diminishing returns. The only thing a zerker or guardian have over a paladin as far as avoidance is a bit more parry (which is easily capped with adornments and the proper group set up)In addition.... Paladins have the BEST avoidance vs epics in the game. A paladin with a tower shield and specced down the hero line will have a substantially higher block chance. That is the BEST form avoidance vs epic mobs. That is not just an opinion, it is fact and game mechanics.There are some tweaks the paladin class can use... but to say we're broken because they cannot PvP well solo is a falsehood, imo

and what did i say?  more mitigation, which is correct.. and more defense which is correct...  yes paladins do get % to block that is a little better, like 2% when you break it down, and paladins parry skill is far lower than a guardian or beserker in turn lowering the paladins overall avoidance, and dps<- yes dps, when you parry as a guardian and beserker you have a chance at an attack.. and a paladins parry is far lower, not just a little lower.. even with 2% parry adorns and if pallys have so much of that epic only avoidance which is suppose to be +block %, why do pallys get hit so freakin hard by epics? go figure.. 

 evidently  you havent seen the parses a paladin put up a few months ago comparing his guardian with his paladin, the guardian absorbed so much more damage it was stupid.. but yet you say i'm wrong?  go figure

 i said all of that..   yet you say i'm wrong?  this is the reason this board is all screwed up.. 

  people put in thier thoughts on a class that they've played for a while [over a year], tanking labs lyceum and deathtoll, you would think they would know,  but yet people want to try and say your wrong in the matter. it happens every [Removed for Content] time.....  tell me i'm wrong, i know i'm right, because i have a zerker and a paladin..

your wrong  rocsthemic, you need to play a different class to see the difference

[Echgar]

People do not like to be told they are "wrong".  As evidenced in many of the threads on this forum recently, it begins with simple disagreement and leads to personal attacks, insults, and namecalling that ends up being moderated as the forum rules prohibit that kind of behavior.Rather than focusing on chest thumping and declaring each other as "wrong" to ratchet up the tension here, I suggest starting with what you agree on.  When you get to things you disagree on, avoid sweeping generalities that are easily misinterpreted based on circumstance.  You all have a wealth of knowledge, but the worst thing to do is hold the belief that you know everything.Come on folks -- you all are better than this.  As Gnobrin has already stated, bickering is the easiest way for a post to be ignored.  Find ways of working constructively on your differences instead of continuing to one-up each other in a war of words.

[Rob89]

I Tanked alot. On a paladin, Berserker, Guardian and Bruiser. Can be done on all classes no doubt. Tanking as a Crusader is a challenge, but fun. I knew that when i created my paladin. Im very satisfied with the paladin as it is now. I raid endgame content. Ive tanked most stuff on my paladin. I can do higher dps then the Berserker if i really want to. Who cares? So its all even. Paladin Class works fine atm. And [Removed for Content] fun to play also i must say. This is said from a full fabled paladin raiding endgame, Endgame Paladins works perfect. There is stuff i would like us to get. But it would make us abit overpopwered. As i said ive played all classes and i think SoE wants to keep us pretty even. As it is now i dont really need any upgrades. Im doing fine as it is. And paladins low avoidance? Nah 60%-62% selfbuffed is enough dont you think? in tank gear.

[Rocksthemic]

Ok, I will agree that guardians and zerkers get higher mitigation, and overall higher avoidance numbers. However, with game mechanics the way they are currently, block is the BEST form of avoidance vs epic mobs. There is no dispute on this fact I believe? Ok. Now the class with the HIGHEST BLOCK % is? This is one of the greatest hook ups of all times from SoE to the paladin community. If you do not have a top end shield with block adornments and hero line, you cannot fully appreciate the awesome power of this. With proper gear you can get 33% block or higher. That is almost a full 1/3 of dmg from epic mobs that does not touch you at all! We as paladins do quite well tanking epics. We just do it differently. I firmly believe that we are fine in most respects. However. I will say there are a few things that I feel could be changed to make the paladin perfect. Make LoH a % based heal --- Perhaps 50%, with the ability through AA to increase it to 60 or 70%. (I saw somewhere someone had suggested 100% with AA, but that would be severely overpowered, even every 15 minutes, imo) Change our self only heal to a ward instead of a heal --- This heal is somewhat useful for group situations, useful for solo as it stands now somewhat... but for raiding it fails quit miserably. 3 seconds in a tanking situation is WAY too long for a heal to cast. If you truly need that heal, you're dead before 3 seconds are up. If it's just spike dmg, you will be healed before 3 seconds are up, thus making that heal one that is very rarely used on raids, or if it IS used, it is wasted more than half the time. Our death spell --- god I can't even think of the name of this spell at the moment, because I have repressed it deep inside. This spell is so horrible in design and implementation that it isn't even funny. Our MAIN aggro tool as paladins is amends.... and yet if we die and use this spell to bring us back to life (which why would we use it really unless we weren't tanking? I could see throwing it up maybe if the raid was about to wipe... Oh wait, we would just die again because it only lowers on hate list, doesn't wipe hate. GFG this spell makes me wanna scream) Oh, where was I? Yeah... our death spell... Please at least remove the stifle and hate reduction part of it. That would allow us to re-cast amends, buff ourselves, and not have to watch everyone die before we had any hope of getting aggro again.

[Boethius_Permafrost]

parses a paladin put up a few months ago comparing his guardian with his paladin

That was a long time ago, on a different combat system which was mitigation based, and before class achievement trees.  The only comparison parse since then is different.

[Steve11418]

I don't want to get flamed... I just wanted to say you Pallys are an awesome class.

I have a 45 Pally and a 70 Raiding Guard... My main toon however is a 70 Raiding Swashy.

In my guild my Guard is a backup Tank... our MT is a Pally... our OT/MA is a Pally... and guess who the next backup is? A Pally.

Our guild has always raided with a Pally MT and have learned to play that way... sub in another class and nothing go's as well as we have all learned to do it with a Pally.

The problem is that a lot of guilds are accustomed to using a Guard... There is no reason a Pally cannot do it just as well if everyone learns how to play nice in a raid with a Pally.

No one class makes the difference is a raid...

There is nothing like going full DPS on the pull... feeling all warm a fuzzy knowing amends is on you.

P.S I am not saying there is nothing wrong with you class... just remember that every class community has a list of things they would like fixed / enhanced on there class.

[Excalibre33]

Those that can, will. Those that can not, will loose an opportunity if they are unwilling to embrace those that can.

I am truly  inspired by Jal's post. Both the "cans" and the "can'ts" have valid points, even if the posts have not been entirely constructive. I'm sorry for my negative contribution to the Paladin community. If you can be forgiving, I'll try to make up for what was lost in my frustration by focusing on improvement and less beligerent posting.

Thanks for all of the constructive posts folks.

[Demoley]

ChopStix wrote:

Rocksthemic wrote:

sure a paladin can tank, and it can dps,, but guardians and beserkers do both better. they get more freestanding mitigation and defense than a paladin, and thier avoidance is also higher..

Sorry Chop... you're dead wrong here. The mitigation bonuses that a guardian or berserker have over paladins are VERY small with diminishing returns. The only thing a zerker or guardian have over a paladin as far as avoidance is a bit more parry (which is easily capped with adornments and the proper group set up)In addition.... Paladins have the BEST avoidance vs epics in the game. A paladin with a tower shield and specced down the hero line will have a substantially higher block chance. That is the BEST form avoidance vs epic mobs. That is not just an opinion, it is fact and game mechanics.There are some tweaks the paladin class can use... but to say we're broken because they cannot PvP well solo is a falsehood, imo

and what did i say?  more mitigation, which is correct.. and more defense which is correct...  yes paladins do get % to block that is a little better, like 2% when you break it down, and paladins parry skill is far lower than a guardian or beserker in turn lowering the paladins overall avoidance, and dps<- yes dps, when you parry as a guardian and beserker you have a chance at an attack.. and a paladins parry is far lower, not just a little lower.. even with 2% parry adorns and if pallys have so much of that epic only avoidance which is suppose to be +block %, why do pallys get hit so freakin hard by epics? go figure.. 

 evidently  you havent seen the parses a paladin put up a few months ago comparing his guardian with his paladin, the guardian absorbed so much more damage it was stupid.. but yet you say i'm wrong?  go figure

 i said all of that..   yet you say i'm wrong?  this is the reason this board is all screwed up.. 

  people put in thier thoughts on a class that they've played for a while [over a year], tanking labs lyceum and deathtoll, you would think they would know,  but yet people want to try and say your wrong in the matter. it happens every [I cannot control my vocabulary] time.....  tell me i'm wrong, i know i'm right, because i have a zerker and a paladin..

your wrong  rocsthemic, you need to play a different class to see the difference

first off, mentioning KoS zones is out dated info, we are at the latter end of eof, 2nd because you play both it doesnt really show much, trust me, ive tanked everything our guard has, our zerker has, with the right gear, with the right group set up it all works out just fine. imo your allowed your opinion do i agree with it no, do i think its incorrect yes. playing a different class wont make people feel they are wrong, but watching top end raiders killing contested will let people see what each class can really do not kos content that a mage can tank these days

[Anavron Ta]

I have been playing a paly since the start of the game - and no matter what changes have come down from SOE - I try just to roll with the punchesand keep having fun. Sorry I don't post much - to busy playing the game. After reading a lot of threads in the forums about - the stuff that has been bothering folks - the thing I find missing from a lot of posts is the "fun" factor. Sure you rolled our toon to be a tank - you can tank - you just need adifferent group set up then the zek or a guard. Maybe we could get a thread started on how different guilds set up their raid groups or something?As far as problems with the Paladin as a class - and the direction it seems to be going - I can't really add to that - I don't really have a "feel" on stuff that different people might see as a problem. I wish that I had a little more dps, that my ward was higher, heals didn't get interrupted, and that my avoidance was easier to raise. I dunno guys and gals.

[ChopStix]

Virutis@Kithicor wrote:

ChopStix wrote:

Rocksthemic wrote:

sure a paladin can tank, and it can dps,, but guardians and beserkers do both better. they get more freestanding mitigation and defense than a paladin, and thier avoidance is also higher..

Sorry Chop... you're dead wrong here. The mitigation bonuses that a guardian or berserker have over paladins are VERY small with diminishing returns. The only thing a zerker or guardian have over a paladin as far as avoidance is a bit more parry (which is easily capped with adornments and the proper group set up)In addition.... Paladins have the BEST avoidance vs epics in the game. A paladin with a tower shield and specced down the hero line will have a substantially higher block chance. That is the BEST form avoidance vs epic mobs. That is not just an opinion, it is fact and game mechanics.There are some tweaks the paladin class can use... but to say we're broken because they cannot PvP well solo is a falsehood, imo

and what did i say?  more mitigation, which is correct.. and more defense which is correct...  yes paladins do get % to block that is a little better, like 2% when you break it down, and paladins parry skill is far lower than a guardian or beserker in turn lowering the paladins overall avoidance, and dps<- yes dps, when you parry as a guardian and beserker you have a chance at an attack.. and a paladins parry is far lower, not just a little lower.. even with 2% parry adorns and if pallys have so much of that epic only avoidance which is suppose to be +block %, why do pallys get hit so freakin hard by epics? go figure.. 

 evidently  you havent seen the parses a paladin put up a few months ago comparing his guardian with his paladin, the guardian absorbed so much more damage it was stupid.. but yet you say i'm wrong?  go figure

 i said all of that..   yet you say i'm wrong?  this is the reason this board is all screwed up.. 

  people put in thier thoughts on a class that they've played for a while [over a year], tanking labs lyceum and deathtoll, you would think they would know,  but yet people want to try and say your wrong in the matter. it happens every [I cannot control my vocabulary] time.....  tell me i'm wrong, i know i'm right, because i have a zerker and a paladin..

your wrong  rocsthemic, you need to play a different class to see the difference

first off, mentioning KoS zones is out dated info, we are at the latter end of eof, 2nd because you play both it doesnt really show much, trust me, ive tanked everything our guard has, our zerker has, with the right gear, with the right group set up it all works out just fine. imo your allowed your opinion do i agree with it no, do i think its incorrect yes. playing a different class wont make people feel they are wrong, but watching top end raiders killing contested will let people see what each class can really do not kos content that a mage can tank these days

did i ever say paladins couldnt tank?  again, no i didnt!!!!

i have seen it with my own eyes many times over, any mob that a guardian or beserker tanks a paladin has a harder time tanking it. however you want to put it..  since post eof it has gotten better for paladins but i still dont think they are on par with guardians and beserkers.

[Demoley]

we are in our own right, guards have better surviability we have better hate gain, its a fair trade off, cant have both can you? and zerkers have dps, yet we can match most zerkers if we are played right, all in all things are well balanced if you know the class, if you dont sorry but id be more than glad to answer your questions, just /pm me or send me a tell kithicor.virutis

[Excalibre33]

ChopStix wrote:

did i ever say paladins couldnt tank?  again, no i didnt!!!!

i have seen it with my own eyes many times over, any mob that a guardian or beserker tanks a paladin has a harder time tanking it. however you want to put it..  since post eof it has gotten better for paladins but i still dont think they are on par with guardians and beserkers.

That is your opinion.

I am under the impression that you do not need to be, or want to be, convinced otherwise and we should expect the same courtesy to those with strong opinions that contradict yours?

[Theren]

I have played a Guardian Paladin and Berserker all mainly group setup as the warriors are in their 50's. I may not be an expert on all things for warriors but for me Paladin is the funnest. I love the tools we are given to tank, we do not need tower of stone or stronger wards if we can just pull it together and work on getting better as a player.  I have been in a 3 pally group that was taking on upper level instances and did very well.I  guess I just really enjoy a challenge. Not that being a Warrior tank is any easier I'm not saying that, but I just love the adaptability of the class. At first I was really starting to hate Paladin, but then I came on to these forums read what the masters of the class had to say to better the class and observed the effort from Paladins like Virutis Wozamil Steel and Jalathan to name drop a few. This class is not broke to me it is incredibly fun.**any kiss @-$ing was not intentional =P**

[Drakehea]

Pallies are the best overall tanks in the game if you can play them.And i dont have trouble pvping 1v1 either.

And as a side note will the people with pallys that say they are no good please delete the toon and reroll something a little easyer for them to play.You put the time in and learn the class Pallys are uber.I've played the class for 18 months now and nothing comes close to the fun i have with my Pally

[memmons]

Hello fellow pallies,

I have been reading these forums for years and have yet to post, but here it goes.

Pallies have far better tanking capacity than most people know, not only that, the pally is one of the few classes that can fill more than one spot in a group or raid. to remember soloing, grouping and raiding are all far different acts from one another. i have done all 3 with out a single gripe. soloing takes DPS and Mit. grouping - give me a coercer, dirge and or ranger and no one can pull agro from me - its all in the set up, zerkers, guards and sks are all set up to take hate with tuants, and spells - the pally can take it without even leaving auto attack ( i have proved it to my guard friends) have all the scouts transfer there hate to the coercer or mage and you amends the mage - promise you will hold the agro. now this may play different once adds come in but then you have 7 AoE to gather up all the mobs around you. Raids are far more tougher, raids are intended by design for organizational skills of all classes working together - when you feel alone in a raid or that you can do better by yourself then the raid will not work, this is proven in the EoF expansion zones EH and FT - where grps must work together to off tank adds and remain in certain ranges to be effective, unlike older raid zones where healers and mages keep distance and all dps in on the name while a tank holds agro. pallies have a far better balanced class than any others, yes i would like to FD when some else did something wrong, yes i would like to be able to heal like a warden - but this is not our design. first thing to learn about the pally is how to communicate with your grp and help them understand how you work - most people think of you as a cross between a zerker and guard with some heals, this is why we get a bad rap in grps and raids, education can fix that. the only thing i see wrong with the pally is Divine Favor is bugged. Pally is a great class but not at all the easiest, it is for the dedicated not the person who wants to be worshipped as "I'M the BEST"- becuase EQ was never designed to have a BEST class. BEST is a degree of comparison - what are you comparing to?

http://eq2players.station.sony.com/...terId=343557108

[Demoley]

memmons wrote:

Hello fellow pallies,

I have been reading these forums for years and have yet to post, but here it goes.

Pallies have far better tanking capacity than most people know, not only that, the pally is one of the few classes that can fill more than one spot in a group or raid. to remember soloing, grouping and raiding are all far different acts from one another. i have done all 3 with out a single gripe. soloing takes DPS and Mit. grouping - give me a coercer, dirge and or ranger and no one can pull agro from me - its all in the set up, zerkers, guards and sks are all set up to take hate with tuants, and spells - the pally can take it without even leaving auto attack ( i have proved it to my guard friends) have all the scouts transfer there hate to the coercer or mage and you amends the mage - promise you will hold the agro. now this may play different once adds come in but then you have 7 AoE to gather up all the mobs around you. Raids are far more tougher, raids are intended by design for organizational skills of all classes working together - when you feel alone in a raid or that you can do better by yourself then the raid will not work, this is proven in the EoF expansion zones EH and FT - where grps must work together to off tank adds and remain in certain ranges to be effective, unlike older raid zones where healers and mages keep distance and all dps in on the name while a tank holds agro. pallies have a far better balanced class than any others, yes i would like to FD when some else did something wrong, yes i would like to be able to heal like a warden - but this is not our design. first thing to learn about the pally is how to communicate with your grp and help them understand how you work - most people think of you as a cross between a zerker and guard with some heals, this is why we get a bad rap in grps and raids, education can fix that. the only thing i see wrong with the pally is Divine Favor is bugged. Pally is a great class but not at all the easiest, it is for the dedicated not the person who wants to be worshipped as "I'M the BEST"- becuase EQ was never designed to have a BEST class. BEST is a degree of comparison - what are you comparing to?

http://eq2players.station.sony.com/...terId=343557108

wow scouts hate on mages with you amendsing them i had to laugh, what ever works for you thoug

[NANEEJE]

MY 2cp WORTH!!! Instead of saying pallys can or cant tank, cause that is not the question, how about saying can YOU tank or not tank? That is what it boils down to... 5th time tanking for me, and after i keep stealing aggro, they say hey, why dont you just tank cause i cant keep aggro. ( casual groups, and i always try to let the other class tank first, I need to keep my amends skills up.) Well, I am finding out that i spent my money wisely,and I play my paly well. With 2,600 hit points at level 31, I havent even seen a guardian with that many yet that i have grouped with. When a group forms, I ask how many hit points does the main tank have, and I always have more. Another group had a paly as a main tank at 30 with 1,900 hit points, huh? ahhh! power leveler, I see now. Play your character well! apply what you learn in these awesome threads, and just be nice, and go out there, and prove what you say here, just prove it nicely, and we shall get the respect we deserve for playing the best class in the game. ( i mean the most fun and challenging)

[Ozgood]

O.k. I will weigh in here, even though the Pally is not my main.  I am impressed by having two moderators touch this thread, so I will take the time and address the issues as I see them.  Again, they asked for specific examples, so people should quit talking in generalizations.

I was left a Pally from a friend of mine.  He had played one to 70 on AB and had one Nagafen that was 28, with all masters, MC or fabled gear on.  Many of you don't want to talk about PvP, so I will simply give you my observations.

I have played every class in the game to a decent level.  I am not a master, but like to do research to understand the class for me.  The pally was surprisingly fun for me.

Problem is; while it seemed versatile and flexible, it didn't seem good at anything.  And hey, there are always classes that can do a little of everything just not well, making them well rounded.  My experience was however, that they did everything worse than average.  I will give you some examples:

Pally tank specced versus a Swashy sta speced as an off tank.  Weird comparision, I know, but think about it.

Mystic with Combat arts and crits versus Pally in Autoattack and CA dps.   Again, weird comparision.

Templar or Inq DPS specced versus a Pally DPS specced.  Now, here you have me as a INQ and Temp have primary roles of healing and not tanking.

TO be painfully specific (PVE):

Pally DPS is the worst of all the "tanks" DPS specced.

Pally Mit seems higher, but yet they seem to get hit more than all the rest of the "tanks"

Pally power power seems to drain quicker as they have to spam CAs more and heals more to still be in last place.

Pallies can solo, but no root and lack of utility make them a non-defined class.

The devs ask us to make examples, I ask them, what is the point of the pally class?  What is their role?  Where do they excel?  From my POV, the answer is no where.

SO ARE THEY BROKE?

No, I didn't say that!  I think they need a class defining ability(s) that sets them apart.  Right now they need more AA's than almost all classes to even show what they can be.   Thats not fair.  Lay hands doesn't do that on a long timer.  Maybe stuns, better group buffs or a perma pet that is a fledgling pally with lesser spells.  I don't know.  The point is that they really don't bring much of that, "I have to have one" to any group.

In PvP:

The heals are slow

They get interrupted all the time

LOH is a joke and heavily mitigated.

The plate armor and buffs get torn through by green scouts with no problem

The auto attack DPS is pathetic.

Taunts are nice though.

Believe it or not, I think this sums up the class.  I think the pally is supposed to be a cross between a healer and a tank.  With all the healers with tank specs it makes them a little un-unique.  On top of that, healers are tough to beat in PvP and tanks are a pain....

Pallies are pretty easy for most classes.  There are some pallies in great situations that know all the right combos and they do o.k.  Whereas these people behind the keyboards of other classes would dominate.  That shows the state of affairs of the pally in my opinion.

[Demoley]

Ozgood@Vox wrote:

O.k. I will weigh in here, even though the Pally is not my main.  I am impressed by having two moderators touch this thread, so I will take the time and address the issues as I see them.  Again, they asked for specific examples, so people should quit talking in generalizations.

I was left a Pally from a friend of mine.  He had played one to 70 on AB and had one Nagafen that was 28, with all masters, MC or fabled gear on.  Many of you don't want to talk about PvP, so I will simply give you my observations.

I have played every class in the game to a decent level.  I am not a master, but like to do research to understand the class for me.  The pally was surprisingly fun for me.

Problem is; while it seemed versatile and flexible, it didn't seem good at anything.  And hey, there are always classes that can do a little of everything just not well, making them well rounded.  My experience was however, that they did everything worse than average.  I will give you some examples:

Pally tank specced versus a Swashy sta speced as an off tank.  Weird comparision, I know, but think about it.

Mystic with Combat arts and crits versus Pally in Autoattack and CA dps.   Again, weird comparision.

Templar or Inq DPS specced versus a Pally DPS specced.  Now, here you have me as a INQ and Temp have primary roles of healing and not tanking.

TO be painfully specific (PVE):

Pally DPS is the worst of all the "tanks" DPS specced.

Pally Mit seems higher, but yet they seem to get hit more than all the rest of the "tanks"

Pally power power seems to drain quicker as they have to spam CAs more and heals more to still be in last place.

Pallies can solo, but no root and lack of utility make them a non-defined class.

The devs ask us to make examples, I ask them, what is the point of the pally class?  What is their role?  Where do they excel?  From my POV, the answer is no where.

SO ARE THEY BROKE?

No, I didn't say that!  I think they need a class defining ability(s) that sets them apart.  Right now they need more AA's than almost all classes to even show what they can be.   Thats not fair.  Lay hands doesn't do that on a long timer.  Maybe stuns, better group buffs or a perma pet that is a fledgling pally with lesser spells.  I don't know.  The point is that they really don't bring much of that, "I have to have one" to any group.

In PvP:

The heals are slow

They get interrupted all the time

LOH is a joke and heavily mitigated.

The plate armor and buffs get torn through by green scouts with no problem

The auto attack DPS is pathetic.

Taunts are nice though.

Believe it or not, I think this sums up the class.  I think the pally is supposed to be a cross between a healer and a tank.  With all the healers with tank specs it makes them a little un-unique.  On top of that, healers are tough to beat in PvP and tanks are a pain....

Pallies are pretty easy for most classes.  There are some pallies in great situations that know all the right combos and they do o.k.  Whereas these people behind the keyboards of other classes would dominate.  That shows the state of affairs of the pally in my opinion.

HAHAHAHAHAHA we dont excell hahahahahaha im in tears we own if played right, dps spec'd pallies can stand up with dps zerkers with right group sets ups, ae is where we excel, amends = best aggro in game, with right gear can get up to 37% block which is the best uncontested avoid in the game, man, good observations though,

[Buzzing]

I feel like I just walked into a war zone.

I am in fact a pali MT for my guild.

I tank with about half a PU because my guild is still growing.

I love it, they love it and honestly I know for a fact we can do what ever any of the other tanks can do just in a different way. If the mob is dead at the end of the fight does it really matter if you had to heal yourself and use a mass hitting DPS to keep agro or stay alive? Nope... The [Removed for Content] guy is dead so who gives a flying leap how he died. You get your loot and you go home with a smile on your face.

Do I take more damage? Sure but I am a half a healer in the main tank group to help keep me alive and I hold agro better meaning the mob will die faster and I won't be taking the beating for as long. Again... If we can kill the mob time and time again, who cares how we do it? I don't feel [Removed for Content] for not having it easy to get my dps to a zerkers level, I have amends and don't lose agro even parsing 700. That means I don't need the dps. Can I boost my mit for 30 seconds? Nope... would it save me it the fight was hitting the fan? Nope... Can I live as well on the pull of a mob as a guard? Divine Aura = can't die on pull if needed and if that is where it is most important who the hell cares about the rest? We have the absolute best uncontested avoid in the game bar none so the rest of the fight will actually be easier then with a guard or zerk. The reason we take more spike damage is because they do have temp buffs the help to mellow it out and we just flat avoid some hits instead. Honestly if you don't like your pali give and up and shut up. Go roll a guard and we'll continue to prove you wrong as we always have.

Moral of the story being... 

Paladins own!!!!! Nuff said