STEALTH CHANGE ON TEST SERVER - PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE TELL ME IT IS A MISTAKE! [Archive]

Allurana

08-29-2007, 09:31 PM

Just now logged onto the test server to check out the dual wield changes and the new appearance armor slots. Just for fun I started looking through my bags to see what armor pieces I had to switch in and out and noticed this little gem just by chance. Paraffin Sealed DocumentTreasuredAn important looking document sealed in paraffin wax. You will be awarded a small amount of status if you give this to a member of a powerful guild of scouts. (HERE IS THE NEW LITTLE GEM ADDED)This item can be sold to certain NPC's for status. Selling it also earns guild status IF YOUR GUILD IS BELOW LEVEL 10. [I cannot control my vocabulary]!!!!! This is TOTAL bull SOE! My guild has been level 60 a LONG time now. We also have been running a contest to see which guild member can save up the most status items to be handed in after the expansion is released. The top 3 guildies with sheer quantity of status items are going to win cash prizes - 10 plat, 5 plat and 2 plat respectively. As guild leader, I have removed myself from the contest but am on a personal mission to be the top saver of these items. I currently have just over 2million personal status and 200k guild status in these items saved up. I have been collecting them on all my characters and buying them off the broker for MONTHS now. MANY MANY Plat tied up in these things. YOU ALL CREATED THESE ITEMS - YOU ALL DECIDED TO UP THE GUILD LEVELS - Are you really serious about this nerf???? I truly do apologize for the tone of my post but I am MAD about this.We are not exploiting, we are not abusing any system, we have been operating under the parameters that YOU put in place. Now you are changing this for one simple reason - you must have noticed that guilds like mine were saving them up in preparation for November.Two last questions SOE - Are you seriously going to make this change and leave it in? AND Did you think no one would notice?Like I said, we have been planning our ascension to level 80 for MONTHS now. Look at my account, look at your database log files, I have put serious effort toward this venture. Ways to raise status in the game:HQs - limited number and we have done most of themWrits - we crank these out when we were not max level (now our ONLY option)Status items - you all just hit this so hard with the nerf bat it is no longer even an optionContested/Raid mobs - we are a casual guild - this is out for usCity Guild raids - we excel at these - check your server logs - we have most the server discoveries on Blackburrow for these raid items Basically SOE you are now saying the following, "If you are not a raid guild - YOU DO NOT DESERVE TO LEVEL YOUR GUILD". Is that what you intend here? Or maybe, "Don't bother joining a high level guild with a new low level character because your efforts won't be allowed to benefit the guild". Please reconsider. I am begging. I will send chocolate chip cookies.Thanks, Allurana

LordDarthKhan

08-29-2007, 10:12 PM

I want to tell you a tale. I play on Oasis Server, when KoS was released and the guild level cap was raised one guild on our server jumped in a few reached the new cap. How ? They did exactly what you guys are doing (which I think is very legal and it's good for a guild to find new way to motivate his members beside raiding all day long). Now the sad part.After a few days of celebration, if I remember correctly, they ver axed down to their previous cap because someone at SOE thought they exploited someway to get all those status items. Sure they might have got most of them by the baazaar but who cares ? it's their plats after all.

GnormeAnnte

08-29-2007, 10:18 PM

There has to be a better way to address the issue if you're really that concerned with people exploiting these items. Unless there's another point to this new feature that eludes me at the moment? Locking out one of the means by which a lower level character can contribute to a guild is not the way to go.If you're really that worried about mass turn-in of guild status items, then put in a timer or a limit regarding how many can be submitted over a specified span of time. Make the items no-trade so they cannot be sold on the broker and stockpiled via their subsequent purchase. Adjust guild status items so that they do not drop from a grey mob kill.There has to be plenty of other solutions available out there rather then going with what appears to be a knee-jerk fix.

Nayurayne

08-29-2007, 10:25 PM

Hmm I do get why Soe has done this. They don't want guild to go from 60-80 right away and I get that but I don't think this is the way to go about it. Maybe make level 60 to 80 harder to get but not this. This way screws over a lot of little and new players.Example. Joe Newbie has just just started to play and has just joined a guild he's happy with and wants to help out. He gets a guild status item and he's now happy that he can contribute to status and help the guild he likes so much grow but oh no, he can't use the status item because the guild level is to high.Level ten in a newbie area is not good to go with what the OP said. There are a lot of new players who won't be able to help out their guilds if this goes through and that doesn't even mean higher level guilds. Say Joe joins a guild that happens to be level 11 he'd still be outta luck and so would every newbie after that. yes I do realize that you can also do writ to contribute but that doesn't change the fact that this change would add in A LOT of basically garbage items. You could give them to others I suppose...Edit: Buh, person above me said it while I was typing this up/waiting for forum to finally load. No matter...post is still valid.

KERSTYNN

08-29-2007, 10:48 PM

Coming from a small, family oriented, non-raiding, type guild that has just reached 50, I would like you to know that this kind of change is going to completely keep us from being able to progress. Yes, we do writs and hq's but a large portion of our members are of lower level so collecting, either via looting or buying status loot from the broker has been a large part of how we have leveled our guild. Although our guild would love to eventually raid we realize that due to our guild size as well as our low sever population that it is just not gonna happen. I personally see no abuse of or exploitation in the way guilds can purchase, loot and hoard status items to get a leg up on leveling their guild. In fact I think its rather ingenius. As stated, it utilizes the game mechanics that were put in place by the devs. I sincerely hope this "change" is a mistake or that it gets seriously reconsidered before being introduced to live servers. Thanks!~

EtoilePirate

08-29-2007, 10:57 PM

I wonder if the OP's kind of item-hoarding is WHY the change is made.I hit up the broker on Test, because all I had were T7 items, and it's true: the T1 ones "also give guild status if your guild is under level 10," and the T7 ones "also give guild status if your guild is under level 60." And that does eliminate one way newbies can help.But when the GL cap went up last time, guilds were hitting the new cap in, what, 24 hours? 36? I'm sure half the guilds in the game have been hoarding status items and farming for them since RoK was announced. The most likely reasoning I can think of is that SOE wants guilds to take TIME to level to 80...

Armawk

08-29-2007, 11:00 PM

Wow thats stunningly ill thought out. You cant throw stuff like that in unannounced when tens of thousands of these things are in peoples possession on every server, and when they are the main way low level characters can contribute to their guilds. Its APPALLING. Way to make there be less reason for guilds to allow low level members in, and way to just sour the experience for huge numbers of people.My main isnt even in a guild right now.. Ive been saving up all the ones I got for many many levels though, because when I do join a guild I can contribute them which I was looking forward to doing.Dreadful dreadful change to put in, you need to give several months notice of something like that.I totally understand the idea that SOE are unhappy with a guild leaping 10 guild levels in a day when a new expension comes out. But what a way to address it...

Freliant

08-29-2007, 11:24 PM

First off, those in level 60 guilds that say, :this eliminates our lowbies from being able to contribute to the guild" are talking alot of horse droppings. You know as well as everyone that they can do writs, HQ's and if you happen to have more than 12 members in your guild, you can do city raids. This change only affects the guilds that have been hoarding thousands upon thousands of these items in hopes of auto-maxing their guild when the expansion comes out. Personally, I am happy this went into play... I can now sell the many hundreds of these things that I have saved up since my guild dinged to 60. Getting a guild level should be an accomplishment that show's your guilds dedication to doing things for the guild, NOT something that can be done just because you have the money for it.Seriously, the mobs that drop those low level documents and the related stuff are level 10+... in the time it would take a newbie to collect 100 guild status worth of these items (10), he can complete a number of writs that give out much more status than that.When we see a guild at level 80 now, we will KNOW they earned it through work and dedication, and NOT because they used their money to hoard up status items.

Runewind

08-29-2007, 11:26 PM

The thing that actually bugs me about this change, if it goes live, is that lower level characters in a guild will be unable to contribute to the guild in this way. Lower level quests can give guild status, I know that buying your guild levels might be an issue but it makes it harder for lower level characters to contribute to their guild. A better solution would be to make these items No Trade.

Armawk

08-29-2007, 11:27 PM

So basically because Sony forgot to do something sensible, like no-trade flag these things months ago, items people acquired in good faith are now declared worthless?I mean god knows I wont be in any guilds approaching level 60 any time soon, but this is a mistake nonetheless.

Freliant

08-29-2007, 11:36 PM

<cite>shaunfletcher wrote:</cite><blockquote>So basically because Sony forgot to do something sensible, like no-trade flag these things months ago, items people acquired in good faith are now declared worthless?I mean god knows I wont be in any guilds approaching level 60 any time soon, but this is a mistake nonetheless.</blockquote>The items are not worthless... just sell them or give them to a guild that is not level 10 yet. I am sure they will appreciate that alot more than you think. Its not a mistake, its just a measure against an exploit.Definition of exploit: using an in game mechanic in a manner that was not intended.If they did this change, it is because they never intended for guilds to level up super quick on low-mid level status items. They intended that if you were normally adventurin in your level range, you would get these nifty items to help your guild out as an added bonus... but these super guilds changed that. Now hundreds of smaller guilds have people that instead of giving the status items to increase their own guilds level, they sell it on the broker for a massive profit to themselves. Put the level limit, and the situation is fixed. IMO should have been done before EoF came out.. heck, should have been done that way since day one.

Runewind

08-29-2007, 11:41 PM

<cite>Freliant wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>shaunfletcher wrote:</cite><blockquote>So basically because Sony forgot to do something sensible, like no-trade flag these things months ago, items people acquired in good faith are now declared worthless?I mean god knows I wont be in any guilds approaching level 60 any time soon, but this is a mistake nonetheless.</blockquote>The items are not worthless... just sell them or give them to a guild that is not level 10 yet. I am sure they will appreciate that alot more than you think. Its not a mistake, its just a measure against an exploit.Definition of exploit: using an in game mechanic in a manner that was not intended.If they did this change, it is because they never intended for guilds to level up super quick on low-mid level status items. They intended that if you were normally adventurin in your level range, you would get these nifty items to help your guild out as an added bonus... but these super guilds changed that. Now hundreds of smaller guilds have people that instead of giving the status items to increase their own guilds level, they sell it on the broker for a massive profit to themselves. Put the level limit, and the situation is fixed. IMO should have been done before EoF came out.. heck, should have been done that way since day one.</blockquote>Which is why I think the best solution would be to make them No-Trade. Granted that means that guilds that are level 60 and hording items will be able to reap the benefits of their not-so-hard-work. But this is still a better solution than forever dooming any low level guildies from contributing to their guild until they can get items high enough. (I am assuming that all the items have level restrictions now and not just the first tier of them. I may be wrong and if I am than it's not AS big of a deal.)

Lodrelhai

08-30-2007, 12:15 AM

If they wanted to make people work for these items rather than buying them, they should have been made no-trade (and I'm not too hot on that idea either). The guilds who are stockpiling them now ARE working for their next guild level. They're planning and saving in advance in preparation for a situation they know is coming. They still have to kill the mobs for them, or earn the coin for them. And yes, I've heard a million times how coin is so easy to get - you still have to do something to get it. Currently these items ARE being used as planned - they are being used to contribute status to the guild and help it level, and for those not concerned with guild levels or status, they are being used to earn a little extra coin.This is simply penalizing people because they had the good sense to plan. Worse, it's penalizing a large faction of the population because some people had the good sense to plan. And the worst of it is that it's being done by stealth, with no discussion or feedback or even a direct announcement of "This is the way it's going to be, eat it."Did you think we wouldn't notice?

Syndic

08-30-2007, 12:18 AM

I think this change would be a very big mistake. Is 10 status (T1 item) really going to brake the back of a level 60 guild? I don't think so but it will hurt the level 11-15 guild. I know guild members who have hundreds of T8 status items saved up already.Whether a player hands in a T1 or a T8 item the guild should still get the benefit of that item. I can't believe this change is just to stop guilds getting to level 80 quickly, really who cares if they do? what mind shatteringly game breaking things are going to be available to a level 80 guild that it is going to matter if they make it in a day or in 4 months?Let people hand in any teir they wish, if you really want to slow it down do what others have suggested put a limit on how many you can sell. Say 1 stack per faction per day. So they most a player could sell is what 200 items, leading to 2000->16000 status a day, that will certainly slow things down, players will find the items still have a value to them and sony will get their progress blocking in.

Paddyo

08-30-2007, 12:44 AM

You are majorly overreacting. ALL status items arent for guilds below level 10....status items all come in tiers like everything else, and each tier works for a higher tier of guild. Moonstone amulets, for instance, give status to guilds SIXTY and below. So lower level guilds have nothing to fear....this just means that you'll have to be saving T7 stuff up and thats all thats gonna work for your guild til it gets to 70, and then no further til you kill enough stuff in T8. No level 80 guilds in the first few days in other words. KUDOS, SOE. An acceptable solution to a problem that bugged alot of hard working players. Now, back to hoarding T7 status items.

GnormeAnnte

08-30-2007, 12:49 AM

Why not just turn the status items into a commodity?If the Guild Status Merchants see an uncommonly large spike in sales, the overall value of the status loot goes down accordingly. Over time, the value would ease back up as most people would prefer a maximum return.Using a method such as this, you'd not completely alienate those that have been stockpiling status items and you'd not be depriving lower level characters from one of the ways they can contribute to their respective guilds. You also ensure that people won't be rocketing to new guild levels upon launch of the new expansion.I know the value of status loot is trivial in the grand scheme of things. I can understand the desire to control the rate at which guild levels are obtained as well. But I do not see a justification in penalizing a player because of their level.Be creative, be inventive and be honest. If time and lack of resources on the part of the developers is an issue, then just tell the community that this change has been put in place until something better can take its place. Heavy-handed changes like this only stir up trouble.

axl_2baz

08-30-2007, 01:16 AM

The real thing to limit the too-fast leveling guilds would be to limitate not by the guild lvl, but by the character lvl.

Xunen

08-30-2007, 03:11 AM

Are you [I cannot control my vocabulary]ing kidding me? This is the most [Removed for Content] change SOE ever did, and it's coming way too late. Everyone already saved and/or bought those items.Why not change it so Quests and Collections also don't reward EXP? It sucks that people save up many many Quests ready to turn in for the new expansion. Why not change that?And by the way, everyone who says he likes the change simply likes it because he didn't buy them and/or farm them. I gave like 500 plat to those china farmers to buy Status Loot, and then, some weeks before the new Expansion goes live, they nerf it. That's so cool SOE. You are teh best at stealth nerfing.Oh, and please fix it that you can't wear Level 70 armor if you level in RoK. I mean that's so [Removed for Content] that people are allowed to gear up now and have easier times to grind up to 80 in RoK.

Pins

08-30-2007, 05:18 AM

<cite>axl_2baz wrote:</cite><blockquote>The real thing to limit the too-fast leveling guilds would be to limitate not by the guild lvl, but by the character lvl.</blockquote>What would that do? Lots of guilds who want to hit the cap fast will have multiple characters at multiple different tiers and will easily be able to squeak around that with relative ease.

Troubor

08-30-2007, 05:44 AM

One thing I find curious is why SOE is all that concerned with how quickly one gains guild level. As long as coin is gained honestly and not bought, one could argue that coin is a way to measure success. If one wishes to translate such a measure from in game coin to status loot, and then use said loot to level one's guild, so be it. Next I wonder if SOE will consider someone intentionally locking EXP off inbetween level 60th and 65th to be an exploit so they can get the writs in KoS where one kills nothing but 15 or 20 droags in TT? I personally don't do that, but if someone wishes to, their choice.These items were put in to give guilds another option to level. Someone who can't contribute time for writs, has maybe done most or all the HQ's, and doesn't raid enough to add status to their guild that way could still sell status items for guild status instead of coin. Now, all you are doing is punishing those people for actually being in a high level guild. Unless they buy said items or someone gives them to them, someone under 70th can't use status items now to contribute to a level 60th guild. Yes, they have other options when November comes, but why take away one of the best ways for a casual player to help out his guild? Guild status items exist IMO for the casual player first, the person who doesn't have time to do a couple hours worth of writs each day before doing a quest or dungeon they might enjoy, who isn't of level or have the time or connections to raid (and might not be in a raid guild or part of a raid alliance even if they do), who does HQ's slowly since their time is limited. They could at least sell their guild status items and add some that way. Now..the casual player is punished for being that, a casual player.For the record, I am in a tiny guild, but am in a raid group so thus get to raid two to three days a week. My guild is under 60th, it's currently 44th about midway to 45th. We're tiny, and only two members, myself and another do any signifigant raiding at all, so not sure if we'll be 60th by November. Same with heritage quests and writs, our guild to be honest is almost dead except for a couple members. Even with that, I am not impressed by this change.

Dogm

08-30-2007, 06:01 AM

Maybe they want to make guild levels mean something with Kunark. With all the current status items available guilds could get a nice jump on the competition. This change will put everybody on equal footing for RoK.

Xunen

08-30-2007, 06:22 AM

<cite>Dogmae wrote:</cite><blockquote>Maybe they want to make guild levels mean something with Kunark. With all the current status items available guilds could get a nice jump on the competition. This change will put everybody on equal footing for RoK.</blockquote>You can't make that equal for everyone. Or do they remove all Master Spells and Fabled gear that people geared up to prepare for RoK? No, so it's not equal. People who raid will get to Guildlevel 80 faster because they have better gear and better spell quality and therefore be able to do city tasks faster than others. And people who farm Status Loot in their spare time (you know, the time what you pay 15 bucks for per month) also have an advantage, as the raiders do. So please stop all the whining about equality, because IMO all this is equal, since everyone could gear up as the raiders did, and everyone could save Status Loot as many did.

Rattfa

08-30-2007, 06:28 AM

LOL Owned!Farming low level mobs for status items purely to level your UBER guild doesnt really make sense. SOE didnt want guilds to be capped the same day the expansion was released, and this was their way of preventing that, or atleast slowing it down. Go do something brave and heroic to do it instead. Slaughtering gnolls in Antonica is neither.

Xunen

08-30-2007, 06:34 AM

You actually have no clue, Ratface. Or do you honestly think that someone would farm mobs to get Status Loot that's worth 10 Guild Status?

Draco the Grey

08-30-2007, 07:33 AM

No reason to hold on to the status items any more? More money for me! <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/ed515dbff23a0ee3241dcc0a601c9ed6.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" />

jarlaxle8

08-30-2007, 07:41 AM

Seriously, what's the big deal? Just sell the low level items on broker, which will help lower level guilds, and buy higher tier stuff. This will make it a bit easier for lower tier guilds to level while making competition at high levels mean something.Low tier status loot, earned in a normal fashion, is almost useless when guild level is high anyway. Other means of getting status are more efficient. Status loot was never intended for making big jumps in guild levels.

Vonotar

08-30-2007, 07:47 AM

This would affectively make turning in T1 and T2 status items a waste of time for our guild members (we are currently guild level 23).But guess what!... a lot of our guild members are actually below level 20... so how does that work?I can see level 60+ guilds refused to accept low level players in the future on the grounds that they 'can't contribute'.Guilds that require members to gain status before promotions will effectively be forcing many lower level people to grind writs in order to gain that status.I can't believe that any level 60 guilds are currently hording huge number of low level status items, so your harming the lowest level people in a misguided attempt to harm the biggest guilds...o.OIncidentally, status items should always have been no-trade... ditch this stupid stealth change and make them no-trade instead. If you really worried about guilds hitting level 80 straight away you might want to look at how much status it takes to grind from 60-80 and adjust as appropriate.

Armawk

08-30-2007, 09:30 AM

Freliant

08-30-2007, 09:32 AM

<cite>Vonotar@Butcherblock wrote:</cite><blockquote>This would affectively make turning in T1 and T2 status items a waste of time for our guild members (we are currently guild level 23).But guess what!... a lot of our guild members are actually below level 20... so how does that work?I can see level 60+ guilds refused to accept low level players in the future on the grounds that they 'can't contribute'.Guilds that require members to gain status before promotions will effectively be forcing many lower level people to grind writs in order to gain that status.I can't believe that any level 60 guilds are currently hording huge number of low level status items, so your harming the lowest level people in a misguided attempt to harm the biggest guilds...</blockquote>If they are low level, then they can get a huge boost in status just by doing HQs. If they are higher levels, then writs should not be a problem, be they adventuring writs, or crafting writs, which can be done at any adventure level. This is not preventing low level players from contributing... it is just preventing max level guilds from hoarding the status items in order to exploit the system and quickly level their guild. And trust me... guilds do hoard those once they reach max level. For example, when my guild reached max level through pure writ/HQs/city raid/normal raids/unrest I started putting all the status items I got on my shared bank slots and giving them to a low level alt. I pretty much have hundreds, if not thousands of them already... but you know what... that change is not going to affect me heavily because most of my status items are T8 from killing level 70+ mobs in very hard areas of the game. The only ones that are going to be affected are the ones below that tier. Level 60 guilds will still accept members. It will be delusional to think otherwise, since the biggest chunks of status do not come from these items, they come from the new member doing his HQs or doing some werits.Again, and sorry to sound redundant, but this is in fact a good change that will prevent guilds from racing too quickly to max level while the only excercise they did was with their wallet. It is a shame they will loose the money from already purchasing all those status items, but hey... they should have seen it coming. Why do I say this? Take a look at what happened when DoF came out: guilds disbanded all their members except a few that were flagged as for status. Those members would then do writs, HQs and HQs until the guild reached max level, and they would again re-invite all members back into the guild. When KoS came out, they changed it so that everyone could contribute to status, but in order to not harm the smaller guilds that had a limited amount of members, they decided to let the amount of status you recieve fluctuate depending on how many members you had. Instead of saying: alright guys, all status counts, lets go work on our guild... they decided to disband every single member and turn in status items to reach max level right away... Well, for EoF they decided, ok, now it doesn't matter how many people are in your guild, everyone will recieve the same amount of status reguardless. The result... no one disbanded anymore, which was a plus... but they still managed to gain max level in one day by just selling status items.. so now that RoK is coming, what does that tell you is gonna happen?Trivializing guild levels was NEVER intended, and unfortunately, we now all have to bite the bullet because of the exploits of some guilds. Again, I think its a welcome change.

Kaalenarc

08-30-2007, 09:48 AM

This is an incredibly bad idea, and once again, implemented without communication from the DEVs - they just throw in a major change without discussion or concern for the community. Will some guilds hoard the items? Yep. So what? Now all they will do is hoard all the T7 ones. The change effectively makes anyone under level 20 unable to contribute on a consistent basis and whats worse - creates a ton of essentially useless loot. The first ten guild levels are relatively easy to get. The solution is simple. Make 60-80 take a VERY long time to get. Long enough so that status items are of minimal impact.But dont take away a new players ability to contribute to his higher ranked guild. Thats just poor thinking. And lastly, once again SOE proves it has not learned its lesson by not communicating with the community. Its the Star Wars Galaxies NGE fiasco all over again. That DEV team went down this path. Now EQ2 is on the same course. Think Im overreacting? Note the change in forums policy, no more guild recruiting threads allowed. Discussed with the community? Nope. Stealth changes to loot drops? Check. Its the same show all over again. Here's a hint DEV team : If you think your decision is ultimately going to prove unpopular with the community, instead of sneaking it in, TALK TO THE COMMUNITY ABOUT IT. Maybe its an error , maybe its some kind of glitch. But frankly, not having it announced as a change and giving the community a chance to discuss it WITH the dev team, is simply poor customer service.I love this game, I really do. And overall its doing some great things. But changes like this, especially when they are put in without notice, are just terrible.

Jenesi

08-30-2007, 09:49 AM

<cite>Freliant wrote:</cite><blockquote>This change only affects the guilds that have been hoarding thousands upon thousands of these items in hopes of auto-maxing their guild when the expansion comes out. Personally, I am happy this went into play... I can now sell the many hundreds of these things that I have saved up since my guild dinged to 60. Getting a guild level should be an accomplishment that show's your guilds dedication to doing things for the guild, NOT something that can be done just because you have the money for it.</blockquote>And doing T1 collection quests and getting xp for them is a bad thing then then also? You can buy them or spend the time running around a zone collecting them to save up and insta lvl your char when RoK comes out. What is the difference? If you have the money to spend buying crap to help lvl your guild then bye all means its your money <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> If they dont want these used buy higher lvl ppl to raise guild lvl then why not just make them like the quest item crap. If you are over that tier they will just not show up for you to loot.

Melciah

08-30-2007, 09:56 AM

Two things I've seen in this thread I agree with:1.) No Trade on Status Items2.) Trivialize Status Items for lootThose two will cut down on the spirit of what this stealth change is trying to do, without screwing the lower level people.I would love to see a reply to this thread by one of the SoE people that lurk the forums, to see what can be done....there has to be some other way of fixing this.

Freliant

08-30-2007, 09:57 AM

<cite>Jenesi wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Freliant wrote:</cite><blockquote>This change only affects the guilds that have been hoarding thousands upon thousands of these items in hopes of auto-maxing their guild when the expansion comes out. Personally, I am happy this went into play... I can now sell the many hundreds of these things that I have saved up since my guild dinged to 60. Getting a guild level should be an accomplishment that show's your guilds dedication to doing things for the guild, NOT something that can be done just because you have the money for it.</blockquote>And doing T1 collection quests and getting xp for them is a bad thing then then also? You can buy them or spend the time running around a zone collecting them to save up and insta lvl your char when RoK comes out. What is the difference? If you have the money to spend buying crap to help lvl your guild then bye all means its your money <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />" width="15" height="15" /> If they dont want these used buy higher lvl ppl to raise guild lvl then why not just make them like the quest item crap. If you are over that tier they will just not show up for you to loot. </blockquote>Grey collections give minimal, if not 0 xp... you can't insta level by turning in T1 collections. Collections are meant to be "collected". As for your suggestion to make them like the "quest item crap" you are forgetting that they are not the ones farming it... they are buying them off the broker. Their work = 0. Seriously though, that is not the point. Main point is that the game developers do not want levels 61-80 trivialized. Its not a hard concept to grasp

Kenazeer

08-30-2007, 09:57 AM

<cite>Kaalenarc@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>The change effectively makes anyone under level 20 unable to contribute on a consistent basis and whats worse - creates a ton of essentially useless loot. But dont take away a new players ability to contribute to his higher ranked guild. Thats just poor thinking.</blockquote>I think players under level 20 (ones that are not twinks mind you) would still be able to make a contribution to guilds, and a more efficient one at that, by doing the solo city writs.

Kaalenarc

08-30-2007, 10:02 AM

<cite>Freliant wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Vonotar@Butcherblock wrote:</cite><blockquote>This would affectively make turning in T1 and T2 status items a waste of time for our guild members (we are currently guild level 23).But guess what!... a lot of our guild members are actually below level 20... so how does that work?I can see level 60+ guilds refused to accept low level players in the future on the grounds that they 'can't contribute'.Guilds that require members to gain status before promotions will effectively be forcing many lower level people to grind writs in order to gain that status.I can't believe that any level 60 guilds are currently hording huge number of low level status items, so your harming the lowest level people in a misguided attempt to harm the biggest guilds...</blockquote>If they are low level, then they can get a huge boost in status just by doing HQs.And if they are too low for an HQ? They now have zero means of contribution. If they are higher levels, then writs should not be a problem, be they adventuring writs, or crafting writs, which can be done at any adventure level. So for those that wanted to contribute through means OTHER than repetitive gameplay? Again no other option but to sit and repeat the same task endlessly over and over. "Status" as I understand it - is supposed to be , in essence, how famous your guild is. Doing HQs - great, Writs...ehhh. THe one aspect that was , to me , a little more immersive, was the loot. Because I could be out , on ANY adventure or quest, and that contributed to my teams renown. It even gave higher level folks a small incentive to mentor. I wont get any xp - but at least I can get a little status.This is not preventing low level players from contributing... it is just preventing max level guilds from hoarding the status items in order to exploit the system and quickly level their guild. If they want to control leveling speed, all they have to do is simply make the xp requirements for guild level substantially higher. You could even make levels 60-63 higher than any other to offset that initial rush of status turn ins. And trust me... guilds do hoard those once they reach max level. For example, when my guild reached max level through pure writ/HQs/city raid/normal raids/unrest I started putting all the status items I got on my shared bank slots and giving them to a low level alt. I pretty much have hundreds, if not thousands of them already... but you know what... that change is not going to affect me heavily because most of my status items are T8 from killing level 70+ mobs in very hard areas of the game. The only ones that are going to be affected are the ones below that tier. And what do you think players with the "hoard" mentality are going to do to power level their guilds with no status items? Thats right, camp the hell out of writ areas to ensure they get ownership of it. I can almost hear the "he stole my mobs" cries now. Level 60 guilds will still accept members. It will be delusional to think otherwise, since the biggest chunks of status do not come from these items, they come from the new member doing his HQs or doing some werits.Some guilds will, some guilds wont. A blanket statement like the above isnt very accurate. Id be willing to bet that SOME guilds wont accept members below a certain level. Which will lead to a ton of mini guilds forming. Is that good or bad? neither - just an interesting side effect. Again, and sorry to sound redundant, but this is in fact a good change that will prevent guilds from racing too quickly to max level while the only excercise they did was with their wallet. It is a shame they will loose the money from already purchasing all those status items, but hey... they should have seen it coming. Why do I say this? Take a look at what happened when DoF came out: guilds disbanded all their members except a few that were flagged as for status. Those members would then do writs, HQs and HQs until the guild reached max level, and they would again re-invite all members back into the guild. When KoS came out, they changed it so that everyone could contribute to status, but in order to not harm the smaller guilds that had a limited amount of members, they decided to let the amount of status you recieve fluctuate depending on how many members you had. Instead of saying: alright guys, all status counts, lets go work on our guild... they decided to disband every single member and turn in status items to reach max level right away... Well, for EoF they decided, ok, now it doesn't matter how many people are in your guild, everyone will recieve the same amount of status reguardless. The result... no one disbanded anymore, which was a plus... but they still managed to gain max level in one day by just selling status items.. so now that RoK is coming, what does that tell you is gonna happen?Again - you can eliminate the hoarding by simply making the level requirements so much higher. Raise the status rewards for HQs and writs above say, level 60. And make the status requirement significantly higher. Doing so would reduce , but not eliminate, the value of status items. In other words, say HQs give 1500 now, make em give 4000 but keep the amounts for the status items the same and raise the amount needed. So that the HQ or writ % value to level stays the same but the status item % of level value drops. In this way, hoarding becomes useless, or at least much less valuable, and lowbies can still feel like they are contributing. Trivializing guild levels was NEVER intended, and unfortunately, we now all have to bite the bullet because of the exploits of some guilds. Again, I think its a welcome change.Respectfully, I think its a terrible change, undervalues newer players , and most importantly, stealth nerfs are never, ever, a good thing. Such a major change should have been announced.</blockquote>

Kaalenarc

08-30-2007, 10:03 AM

<cite>Kenazeer wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Kaalenarc@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>The change effectively makes anyone under level 20 unable to contribute on a consistent basis and whats worse - creates a ton of essentially useless loot. But dont take away a new players ability to contribute to his higher ranked guild. Thats just poor thinking.</blockquote>I think players under level 20 (ones that are not twinks mind you) would still be able to make a contribution to guilds, and a more efficient one at that, by doing the solo city writs. </blockquote>At what level do writ and HQs start? How many are there for those under 20?

Windowlicker

08-30-2007, 10:11 AM

Ok, so what this means is anyone who isn't top level is not going to be able to contribute to our guild status with items anymore. What an absolutely stupid idea. Beyond that, I've been saving every single status item I've earned for the last year waiting for the level cap to go up.I *earned* these items. And if I choose to turn them in all at once, that should be my choice. Afterall, I did earn them.I really hope this change is backed out, because it's stupid as hell.

Kenazeer

08-30-2007, 10:15 AM

<cite>Kaalenarc@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Kenazeer wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Kaalenarc@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>The change effectively makes anyone under level 20 unable to contribute on a consistent basis and whats worse - creates a ton of essentially useless loot. But dont take away a new players ability to contribute to his higher ranked guild. Thats just poor thinking.</blockquote>I think players under level 20 (ones that are not twinks mind you) would still be able to make a contribution to guilds, and a more efficient one at that, by doing the solo city writs. </blockquote>At what level do writ and HQs start? How many are there for those under 20?</blockquote>Writ info...<a href="http://eq2.tentonhammer.com/index.php?module=ContentExpress&file=index&func=display&ceid=14&meid=189" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">http://eq2.tentonhammer.com/index.p...eid=14&meid=189</a>Heritage info...<a href="http://eq2.tentonhammer.com/index.php?module=ContentExpress&file=index&func=display&ceid=130&meid=145" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">http://eq2.tentonhammer.com/index.p...30&meid=145</a>

Jenesi

08-30-2007, 10:20 AM

<cite>Freliant wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Jenesi wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Freliant wrote:</cite><blockquote>This change only affects the guilds that have been hoarding thousands upon thousands of these items in hopes of auto-maxing their guild when the expansion comes out. Personally, I am happy this went into play... I can now sell the many hundreds of these things that I have saved up since my guild dinged to 60. Getting a guild level should be an accomplishment that show's your guilds dedication to doing things for the guild, NOT something that can be done just because you have the money for it.</blockquote>And doing T1 collection quests and getting xp for them is a bad thing then then also? You can buy them or spend the time running around a zone collecting them to save up and insta lvl your char when RoK comes out. What is the difference? If you have the money to spend buying crap to help lvl your guild then bye all means its your money <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src=" width="15" height="15" />" width="15" height="15"> If they dont want these used buy higher lvl ppl to raise guild lvl then why not just make them like the quest item crap. If you are over that tier they will just not show up for you to loot. </blockquote>Grey collections give minimal, if not 0 xp... you can't insta level by turning in T1 collections. Collections are meant to be "collected". As for your suggestion to make them like the "quest item crap" you are forgetting that they are not the ones farming it... they are buying them off the broker. Their work = 0. Seriously though, that is not the point. Main point is that the game developers do not want levels 61-80 trivialized. Its not a hard concept to grasp</blockquote>and T1 status items give what like 10xp or so per item to the guild! I will give you that you can just buy them off the broker, but its there money to spend how they see fit. They earned it. The whole work = 0 idea is just crap. They earned the money they are useing to buy those items with. Who cares if they farm them or buy them. What really right now in game is not trivialized? How hard is it to make lvl / do quests / clear zones. If they dont want things easier then they should stop making everything that way.

Tremelle

08-30-2007, 10:48 AM

<img src="http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff110/Fusegu/ScreenHunter_01Aug3001.38.gif" alt="" border="0" /> When I came across this last thread last night, I had to go see for my self, unfortunately, being test and basicly an under flated market I could only find the tier ones. Personally I think this was a very sneaky change. In part is understandable with ROK coming out, but this will hurt every guild, not just the big ones and it will makeing harder for new players to join older guilds.

Freliant

08-30-2007, 10:51 AM

<cite>Jenesi wrote:</cite><blockquote> If they dont want things easier then they should stop making everything that way. </blockquote>They just did.For the prior posters - They tried making it harder to level 50-60 and some guilds still leveled in one day. You underestimate how many status items are being horded. I am talking a few alts with ebony chests and ebony salesman crates filled to the bring with stacks and stack of status items. Literally millions of status worth. Reguardless of how high they make leveling, it can still be trivialized. And if they make it that high, then that means no other guild will be able to ever get to max level because of the shear amount of status needed to level.Take it with a grain of salt... the change is a good one.

Kalyai

08-30-2007, 11:07 AM

Aeralik, Devs, Someone....PLEASE rethink this! My guild is level 60....our average guild member level is in the 30s....you realize that that means that a very large portion of our guild will be unable to turn in the status loot that they randomly get off of mobs....Even without the fact that they want to turn these items in to help level the guild when RoK comes out....Currently, even with a level 60 guild.. .our members turn in their status loot for what it was intended to be used for... to GAIN STATUS so that they can buy horses, pay upkeep on houses, buy pvp gear..etc etc... Please understand the problems this will cause all around...

Dasein

08-30-2007, 11:15 AM

<cite>Paddyo wrote:</cite><blockquote>You are majorly overreacting. ALL status items arent for guilds below level 10....status items all come in tiers like everything else, and each tier works for a higher tier of guild. Moonstone amulets, for instance, give status to guilds SIXTY and below. So lower level guilds have nothing to fear....this just means that you'll have to be saving T7 stuff up and thats all thats gonna work for your guild til it gets to 70, and then no further til you kill enough stuff in T8. No level 80 guilds in the first few days in other words. KUDOS, SOE. An acceptable solution to a problem that bugged alot of hard working players. Now, back to hoarding T7 status items. </blockquote>The problem is that tiers are based on character levels, not guild levels, so a level 30 character in a level 60 guild will not be getting T7 status items as drops. Perhaps a more acceptable solution would be to implement a system of diminishing returns, so a level 60 guild would get less status from a T1 status item, while a level 11 guild would get most of it. For example, for every tier above the item tier, the status reward is reduced by 10%. Personal status would remain unchanged.

liveja

08-30-2007, 11:24 AM

<cite>Zahne@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote>Ok, so what this means is anyone who isn't top level is not going to be able to contribute to our guild status with items anymore. What an absolutely stupid idea. Beyond that, I've been saving every single status item I've earned for the last year waiting for the level cap to go up.I *earned* these items. And if I choose to turn them in all at once, that should be my choice. Afterall, I did earn them.I really hope this change is backed out, because it's stupid as hell.</blockquote>100% agreement. SOE, please tell us this is a mistake.

Kaalenarc

08-30-2007, 11:27 AM

I still would like to know why a change like this, impacting the entire guilded playerbase, is implemented without notification. Whether you agree or disagree with the new changes, the way they are doing it is awful.

kreepr

08-30-2007, 11:27 AM

I completely and totally disagree with this change. I play on a PVP server, I contribute to the guild in different ways with different toons. Some I do trade skill writs and city writs and others threw PVP and status items. That's BS that this change was even conceived as an idea. You people can deny it all you want but it will effect recruiting and it will hurt the lower level people trying to help there higher level guilds.I got a question I would like to have an exile on a PVP server answer, can you guys do city writs to level your exiled guilds? I don't know how the guilds work in exile but I am under the assumption that you don't have writs and so with this change they are cutting out a huge chunk of status for them. Lame SOE how about an answer for this??

Dasein

08-30-2007, 11:29 AM

Siltha

08-30-2007, 11:30 AM

So to get personal status from those Items I will have to drop my guild and join a lvl 10 guild?<div></div><div>Well, if you guys put in a stupid change like this, give us at least a fair warining before you patch it in, so we can burn our saved items before they become worthless.</div>

Bloodfa

08-30-2007, 11:34 AM

While I think it's essentially a good idea, and with Guild Halls finally on the horizon, I understand why it's being done, I don't think that it's something that should be sneaked in without some sort of announcement. Those players in guilds that haven't cashed them in yet would get thoroughly [Removed for Content], at least give people the opportunity to dump them before trivializing them for top-level guilds. I've been saving mine, although it's not many, and holding off on completing HQ's because right now they would be wasted. I guess I'll put my status items on the market, as Iluminati's already level 60. For all of the people screaming "OMG! This is the worst thing SOE's ever done!!!!!" and complaining (not saying it's right or wrong, just saying) about lower level toons being marginalized by this in that they won't be able to turn them in, the amount of status items you pull in an average week's gameplay can be surpassed by doing a single city writ. At level 66, I get solo writs for Loping Plains that are level 66 or 67 and pay out 9,000 Guild Status, and never head out with just one writ, so that's 36,000 Guild Status per run. Even with my hours and soloing in a PvP scenario, I can get 2 runs done in a night without breaking a sweat. I don't care who you are, there ain't no freakin' way you're finding that many amulets and idols in a week unless you're playing round the clock with an IV and a catheter. Buying them, sure, but finding them? The ones who will be the most affected are those that have hoarded them. Summed up: good idea, poorly implemented if it goes through as-is. Of course that's just my opinion; I could be wrong. ** blatantly stolen line from Dennis Miller, back when he used to be funny.

Krystara

08-30-2007, 11:36 AM

Please re-consider this change Sony - please. My guild is *tiny* and we need every drop of status we can get our hands on. We've worked our tails off to get to level 21, and will continue to go higher as we can, but this is going to seriously hurt us. Yes, those T1 items only give 10 points, but it's still 10 points we didn't have before. This is not a happy change for small guilds and I'd love to get some developer commentary on this matter. Please.

Lilj

08-30-2007, 11:36 AM

<cite>Kaalenarc@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>I still would like to know why a change like this, impacting the entire guilded playerbase, is implemented without notification. Whether you agree or disagree with the new changes, the way they are doing it is awful. </blockquote>Aye, well said. I don't like the way things get sneaked in like this (like loosing stealth if interacting with things in the world), especially not something large as this.Too many stealth changes this time, did they forget half the update notes?

Gareorn

08-30-2007, 11:40 AM

<cite>Freliant wrote:</cite><blockquote>For the prior posters - They tried making it harder to level 50-60 and some guilds still leveled in one day. You underestimate how many status items are being horded.</blockquote>Some guilds are still going to figure out how to level in a day regardless of this poorly thought-out change. You underestimate the ingenuity of the average EQ2 gamer. We are not a bunch of 20 year-olds playing on a Tandy computer in our mother's basement.To the devs -- This is a bad change. Just exactly what is the big deal if a few guilds level up in a day? It affects no one. Will guilds level up in a day? Yes. Will mine? No. Does another guild leveling up in a day have any affect on me? No.I'm sorry, but I'm just not pushing the "I believe" button or drinking the "best interest of the game" kool-aide.

MyleeSilverwings

08-30-2007, 11:41 AM

I rarely post when I'm unhappy, but this stealth change has simply infuriated me. * I have never purchased a status item in the almost 4 years I have been playing this game. * I now have 3 32 slot boxes full of status items of all tiers waiting for RoK. These items were obtained by my 3 level 70 characters, and all of my baby alts, through adventuring and playing this game as SoE intended.I don't understand how this can be "an acceptable solution to a problem that bugged a lot of hard working players." I am "hard working", so are hundreds of other players who did NOT purchase those status items to blast level their guilds to 80 in 24 hours. And what about all the people who are profiting from the SALE of those status items? SoE ... please make these status items NO TRADE. That will resolve the problem, and not hurt all the people who have worked so hard these past few months to acquire and save their status items.

Brins

08-30-2007, 11:43 AM

<cite>Liljna wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Kaalenarc@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>I still would like to know why a change like this, impacting the entire guilded playerbase, is implemented without notification. Whether you agree or disagree with the new changes, the way they are doing it is awful. </blockquote>Aye, well said. I don't like the way things get sneaked in like this (like loosing stealth if interacting with things in the world), especially not something large as this.Too many stealth changes this time, did they forget half the update notes?</blockquote>QFE.I see the reason why they are doing this but as usual they dont' think things through. Guilds have been lvl 60 for quite some time now and alot of people have been hording status items of all tiers waiting for the next expansion. Now you tell them after they have spent time and money collecting these items that they can't use them (actually you didn't tell anyone) Pretty much BS

rvbarton

08-30-2007, 11:47 AM

I wish they would simply take these status items out of the game, all together!Awww... gonna actually have to play to game to accomplish something... <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />crybaby.

Vonotar

08-30-2007, 11:48 AM

I checked the broker and did a "status per buck" analysis on a lot of the prices.Most T1/T2 status items are way overpriced for the amount of status they offerThe sweet spot is around T4/T5, often T6/T7 are overpriced too (on a gsp per gold basis).So guilds above level 30 will not benefit from T1/T2/T3 status items being turned in, however these items are not the ones being heavily purchased/sold by plat sellers (yes they sell status items).The solution is obvious, make them no-trade and pull them all from the broker (set all status items currently for sale as 'not for sale'<img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />, existing users who have horded them will still be able to turn them in, but then they horded on the basis of the old rules so thats fair. Plat sellers will find themselves with a lot of useless stock... boo hoo

Kenazeer

08-30-2007, 11:49 AM

Background: LU12 introduced status loot in July of 2005. <li>In addition to completing writs that are assigned to you by city NPCs, you can now earn guild status by turning in new kinds of dropped items. </li>There were also a few changes made regarding guild mechanics, one of which was<li>Guild levels are now capped at 30. Additional guild experience cannot be earned until the guild level cap is raised. </li>Suppostition: Status turn ins now make up a siginificantly larger portion of guild leveling than was/is intended.Problem: How to insure that guild levels 61-80 are not "trivialized" by the "stored" experience of status items.I doubt very seriously this was a mistake, and agree with those who say a courtesy "heads up" was in order. However, I don't see them leaving it as is. Our best bet is to offer a better solution to the problem, not scream for it to be kept the way it was.

Vonotar

08-30-2007, 11:50 AM

<cite>rvbarton wrote:</cite><blockquote>I wish they would simply take these status items out of the game, all together!Awww... gonna actually have to play to game to accomplish something... <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />" />crybaby.</blockquote>They did accomplish something... they killed the mobs holding the status items.For some of our lowest members, being able to turn in the odd low relic or document makes them feel they are making a valuable contribution (which they are, even if it's a small one). Writs start at level 10, HQ's start at level 17 and (crucially, especially for somebody who has had trouble finding the 'right' guild) can only be done ONCE.

Windowlicker

08-30-2007, 11:51 AM

If they don't want guilds hitting max guild level in a day, then they should increase the requirements for status. Not nerf the status items that everyone has *worked* for, *saved* and *earned*.What is the point of status items at all for people in a max level guild? If you don't need any personal status, they have absolutely no meaning.That's why many of us have been saving them.I also have three level 70 characters that have been saving them for the better part of this year. This change really ticks me off.

liveja

08-30-2007, 11:56 AM

<cite>rvbarton wrote:</cite><blockquote>Awww... gonna actually have to play to game to accomplish something... <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />" width="15" height="15" /></blockquote>Yea, because obviously, going out & killing mobs that might drop status items isn't actually playing the game./bonk

Freliant

08-30-2007, 12:02 PM

Everyone in a 60 guild starts to store their status items as soon as their guild levels, so don't think you are alone in this. Those of you that said you got all your status items by adventuring, well, kudos to you, the higher tier status items will not affect your progression. YOU CAN STILL TURN THOSE IN and they will give guild status. The ones that do not, are the lower tier ones. Hence, the only ones affected at launch are the level 60 guilds that have hoarded up tons of the stuff which they bought mainly from plat selling toons, as someone else duly noted. Now plat sellers have one less venue to gain their funds... win win situation.Like someone else also noted, you get guild xp much faster by doing city writs and crafting writs than actually getting the drops, so that is a moot point too.

Anxi

08-30-2007, 12:02 PM

This change doesn't bother me in the slightest. There are far more efficient ways of leveling a guild then hording status items for turn in. I have always viewed the status items as a kind of bonus. Maybe there is a reason SoE doesn't want guilds hitting level 70 and 80 right when RoK drops. Perhaps the the rewards are going to be worth the effort? I doubt it but one can hope.

Mheryl

08-30-2007, 12:05 PM

Joining in my vote here; if this was intended, it's a ridiculous change.My alt guild has members from level 1-70, both my own alts and friends. The guild itself is level 26, so the t1 alts and t2 alts can no longer contribute their status items for guild level.Granted, they don't give a lot of guild exp so my question is, why change it at all? You've already taken the amount of exp that you need to level the guild to a (IMO) ridiculously high number, so again, why?

Oakleafe

08-30-2007, 12:05 PM

<cite>Bloodfang@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>While I think it's essentially a good idea, and with Guild Halls finally on the horizon, I understand why it's being done, I don't think that it's something that should be sneaked in without some sort of announcement. Those players in guilds that haven't cashed them in yet would get thoroughly [Removed for Content], at least give people the opportunity to dump them before trivializing them for top-level guilds. I've been saving mine, although it's not many, and holding off on completing HQ's because right now they would be wasted. I guess I'll put my status items on the market, as Iluminati's already level 60. For all of the people screaming "OMG! This is the worst thing SOE's ever done!!!!!" and complaining (not saying it's right or wrong, just saying) about lower level toons being marginalized by this in that they won't be able to turn them in, the amount of status items you pull in an average week's gameplay can be surpassed by doing a single city writ. At level 66, I get solo writs for Loping Plains that are level 66 or 67 and pay out 9,000 Guild Status, and never head out with just one writ, so that's 36,000 Guild Status per run. Even with my hours and soloing in a PvP scenario, I can get 2 runs done in a night without breaking a sweat. I don't care who you are, there ain't no freakin' way you're finding that many amulets and idols in a week unless you're playing round the clock with an IV and a catheter. Buying them, sure, but finding them? The ones who will be the most affected are those that have hoarded them. Summed up: good idea, poorly implemented if it goes through as-is. Of course that's just my opinion; I could be wrong. ** blatantly stolen line from Dennis Miller, back when he used to be funny.</blockquote>I think this change, if it is to go ahead into live, is very, very, very wrong.I also think the answers saying that low-level players should do writs instead of using status loot for GSP is wrong. Not every player likes doing adventuring writs. Not every player wants to craft and then those that do don't all love the TS writs. Some players never ever do HQ's because "they are too long" (their whine, not mine). Some players just like to go out and kill stuff - the status loot is then their only way of contributing GSP.Most guilds see GSP as a sign that players are contributing to the good of the guild (hopefully not the only sign, but a sign at least).Some low-level players WILL be badly impacted by this change.You don't have to look far in these forums to find someone going on about "play styles" and how we should accept that there are a variety and let people do what they are happy doing etc. Well, telling a "I only have an hour in the evening and I like to kill stuff" player that he has to do writs is not going to go down well.So, let's try and come up with a better solution to whatever the unstated ("stealth change" so the reason cannot have been given) problem is shall we?For example, why not make the status loot NO TRADE (as previously suggested) and don't let it drop from grey mobs?This wouldn't solve the buying up of existing status loot but would, in the future, mean that only loot with a players adventure level would be available and only available to them.

Kaalenarc

08-30-2007, 12:06 PM

Kaalenarc

08-30-2007, 12:07 PM

<cite>Dasein wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Kaalenarc@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>I still would like to know why a change like this, impacting the entire guilded playerbase, is implemented without notification. Whether you agree or disagree with the new changes, the way they are doing it is awful. </blockquote>To be fair, it hasn't been implemented yet, it is still on test.</blockquote>To be equally fair - other changes affecting this wide a section of the playerbase are ANNOUNCED. This one wasnt. Even if its on test - we still should be told.

Wilin

08-30-2007, 12:08 PM

Err, one of the earlier posters said that the T7 items would work for guild level below 60. I didn't see anyone else react to that so I will by asking:Does this mean that even T7 items are useless to a level 60 guild? If what the earlier poster said is true, level 60 guilds will have no items that can be turned in for status until the expansion comes out and we start killing 71+ mobs?Edit: Here it is...<cite>EtoilePirate wrote:</cite><blockquote>I hit up the broker on Test, because all I had were T7 items, and it's true: the T1 ones "also give guild status if your guild is under level 10," and the T7 ones "also give guild status if your guild is under level 60." And that does eliminate one way newbies can help.</blockquote>

Freliant

08-30-2007, 12:11 PM

Seriously... in a full day of adventuring with your friends, how many status items do you end up with in your bag??? If you get a full stack you have been out there ALOT. Now lets do that math... a stack of T1 GSP loot is: 2000 personal status (which you still gain), and 200 Guild status, which starting on LU38 will not happen anymore. That is right... 200 status. Now, lets go out and do a writ for the same level... You spend much less time, and guess what... you get the same status reward.If you don't like to do writs, or crafting writs, or HQs, then too bad for you... you would have only contributed 200 status to your guild in an entire day of adventuring. This will cause the foucs of your day's work to shift from mindless killing, to killing with a purpose, which imo is good.

Armawk

08-30-2007, 12:12 PM

<cite>Wilin wrote:</cite><blockquote>Err, one of the earlier posters said that the T7 items would work for guild level below 60. I didn't see anyone else react to that so I will by asking:Does this mean that even T7 items are useless to a level 60 guild? If what the earlier poster said is true, level 60 guilds will have no items that can be turned in for status until the expansion comes out and we start killing 71+ mobs?</blockquote>It seems to be the case that any status item currently in the game will not be useable to level past the current cap. This would be consistent with the T2 status items being <level 10. T3=<20. T4=<30. T5=<40. T6=<50. T7=<60.So indeed, for members of a level 60 guild, all status items they have or acquire pre-rok are useless for their guild. Even if obtained at the highest current levels of the game.Ooops.

Armawk

08-30-2007, 12:15 PM

<cite>Freliant wrote:</cite><blockquote>Seriously... in a full day of adventuring with your friends, how many status items do you end up with in your bag??? If you get a full stack you have been out there ALOT. Now lets do that math... a stack of T1 GSP loot is: 2000 personal status (which you still gain), and 200 Guild status, which starting on LU38 will not happen anymore. That is right... 200 status. Now, lets go out and do a writ for the same level... You spend much less time, and guess what... you get the same status reward.If you don't like to do writs, or crafting writs, or HQs, then too bad for you... you would have only contributed 200 status to your guild in an entire day of adventuring. This will cause the foucs of your day's work to shift from mindless killing, to killing with a purpose, which imo is good.</blockquote>Logical failure. People obtain status items from killing in the normal course of game play. Questing, exploring, killing in the normal run of the game, not remotely mindless. Writs are mindless killing if anything in the game is.Making low level plyaer do writs instead of playing the main game is hardly improving anything. repeating writs is grinding and farming.

liveja

08-30-2007, 12:15 PM

<cite>Freliant wrote:</cite><blockquote>Hence, the only ones affected at launch are the level 60 guilds that have hoarded up tons of the stuff which they bought mainly from plat selling toons, as someone else duly noted.</blockquote>Soooooo, if my level 60 guild goes out & hordes up tons of T7 status items between now & ROK, without paying a single copper penny to any plat seller, & we turn in hundreds & hundreds of them the day ROK comes out, & maybe even get a guild level from it ... you won't pitch a fit?EDIT: OK, never mind. Apparently, T7 items won't give us status, because we're already level 60. That takes this change from merely ill-conceived, to MIND-BLOWINGLY dumb.In any event, Freliant ... it would be a very nice thing if you would refrain from accusing guilds of which you have absolutely no knowledge, of having spent real world money to raise their guild status. In the case of my guild, you're simply wrong, so take your false accusations & stuff them in the closet where they belong.

Krystara

08-30-2007, 12:16 PM

<cite>Oakleafe wrote:</cite><blockquote>For example, why not make the status loot NO TRADE (as previously suggested) and don't let it drop from grey mobs?This wouldn't solve the buying up of existing status loot but would, in the future, mean that only loot with a players adventure level would be available and only available to them.</blockquote>/nods I wouldn't be as unhappy if this was the change. I admit that I've dropped some money on status items in the past when we were really close to a guild level - but we'd adjust accordingly.It's just nice to have an option to not chain myself to the stove or kill the same critter over and over. City writs get old fast. It's nice to know that I could pick up a few things just wandering around in the world and doing my favorite quests... on any of my characters.. and have it matter a little at least.

einar4

08-30-2007, 12:17 PM

I agree that this is a fairly unimaginative and disingenuous attempt to prevent something that really was never a "problem" in the first place. It communicates to players, "You must hurry and grind up to 70 to help your guild." That is assuming guilds will be interested in taking in lower level characters at all. I'm a bit surprised that the developers would be so unimaginative and egregious to think that this is a solution to anything at all, it is akin to amputating a kid's legs to keep him from playing in traffic.

liveja

08-30-2007, 12:22 PM

<cite>Freliant wrote:</cite><blockquote>If you don't like to do writs, or crafting writs, or HQs, then too bad for you... you would have only contributed 200 status to your guild in an entire day of adventuring. This will cause the foucs of your day's work to shift from mindless killing, to killing with a purpose, which imo is good.</blockquote>If you think that doing writs all day is somehow not mindless killing, then I respectfully suggest you've never spent an entire day grinding writs.Writs -- whether kill writs or craft writs -- are the very DEFINITION of mindless grind.

Vonotar

08-30-2007, 12:23 PM

liveja

08-30-2007, 12:30 PM

I'd like to also point this out: level 60 guilds are now effectively screwed out of turning in hundreds of status items when ROK comes out ... but the farther below 60 your guild is, the less you're affected.Let's say your guild is level 20. All status items from T3-T7 will still give you guild status. You can pile them up in the hundreds between now & ROK release, & turn them all in at once.But if you're already level 60, you're simply hosed, & it's nothing but mindless grinding of writs, & hoping for the odd T8 item you find????Some people seem to think this is a good deal. I respectfully suggest those people aren't thinking. Please keep in mind that "guild level" has absolutely NOTHING to do with "player level". I could start a guild with my level 70 Swashy, kick everyone out of it so it's all me me me, & then buy/farm up as many status items as I can, & turn them all in, & because my LEVEL 1 guild is well below the cap, my solo guild will still climb like a rocket.This is one of the most ill-conceived changes I've ever heard of.

Captain Apple Darkberry

08-30-2007, 12:30 PM

<Murrar Shar glances from the great shining Knight standing before him to the caravan of wagons clogging the cobblestone street leading up to the castle, ech laden with chest upon chest packed with Blackened Iron Relics><Tugging a whisker Murrar ponders a way to be diplomatic as the mighty warrior before him has faced the greatest battles in Norrath and leads a guild held in the highest regard by the Queen>Well... ...while it is very uhm... ...brave <coughs> of you to slay the million Sabertooth Runts and Darkpaw Mystics that you did to get these Blackened Iron <coughs again to suppress a snicker> Relics, would you happen to have any of the more valuable ones?<Murrar tries to feign innocent curiosity> Oh I don't know... ...like maybe those that might be found by braving the evil Bonemire? ...the haunting Loping Planes? ...maybe even at least Tenebrous Tangle?<the shining Knight before him seem oblivious to the hints and merely stood chest out waiting for instant recognition for his guild's "accomplishment">~~~~((While this is a small inconvenience for a lower level player to feel like they are contributing to their guild, it isn't that bad. The lower level player still gets the personal status as well as text that lets them know that the item they got in a lowbie zone will only help lowbie guilds.If they were to express their concerns to theiir guild that they feel bad that the items they turned in didn't help the guild, any good guild would respond with thanking them anyway, telling them that their value to the guild goes beyond merely turning in items for status, and letting them know that they can perform other tasks (adventure writs, crafting writs, HQs) to help also.Most players would understand why the items are like this given the history of guild leveling in the last expansion.SoE isn't taking away your ability to use status items to level, merely taking away your ability to use paltry low tier items to advance a level 60 guild.))

Sapphirius

08-30-2007, 12:31 PM

<cite>Siltha wrote:</cite><blockquote>So to get personal status from those Items I will have to drop my guild and join a lvl 10 guild? <div></div><div>Well, if you guys put in a stupid change like this, give us at least a fair warining before you patch it in, so we can burn our saved items before they become worthless.</div></blockquote>Actually, unless I'm misreading, you will still get personal status. Your guild just won't receive any.However, whether everyone here agrees with it or disagrees with it is inconsequential. SOE will do what it wants to do regardless of how we feel about it. What I truly have a problem with is that this change was unannounced. Yes, a previous poster reminded us that it was only on test, but that doesn't change that it was still unannounced. There is a special forum for the Test Server where updates and changes are posted. This change was not listed anywhere amongst them. It truly is a "stealth" nerf, and stealth nerfs are never good. Period.Personally...I disagree with the change because this will hurt lower level players. (I cannot stress that enough, I feel.) I currently play on three different servers. On two of the servers, I have maxxed out characters, but on one of the servers, my highest level character is a T4 warlock in a lvl 54 guild. She does writs for about an hour maybe twice a week. (I have RL to tend to. I can't grind writs all day to earn status.) She also does every HQ that she's strong enough to do, but a few writs can easily earn more status than one HQ. That,a nd there's only a limited number of HQs that she can do. She's not high enough for the bulk of them. The largest way she contributes status is through selling the status items she gains when she adventures. This change would effectively take out her largest and least time-consumive means of contribution to her guild.My main's guild is sitting at the level cap, but we're a family guild who bases guild rank entirely upon contributed status to the guild, so our members are constantly earning status to move up the ranks even at level cap. We have people of all levels in our guild including some who are completely and totally new to the server, EQ2, and even MMOs in general. This change is going to hurt those people most. (It won't affect Sapphy and Noz any as the only items I've saved are the ones I've hunted myself.)On the flip side of the coin I also understand not wanting to trivialize guild levels and that a huge bulk of money generation for plat farmers is through the broker sales of status items. A better solution would have been to flag the items as "no-trade." Why? Because say I wanted to break off from LOTT and form my own new guild for raiding or whatever. I get a bunch of friends together, and we can still power level that guild all the way to level cap by farming status items. Our guild is starting at zero, and we have scores of T7 and T8 status items in the bank that we've been holding onto. So... How is that really stopping that problem of trivializing guild levels? It's not.Someone else already pointed out another potential problem with this proposed system. Those guilds that race to level cap at every expansion? Yeah, you think they're vicious when an x-pack just releases? Wait until they find out they have to do writs to level their guild. Regular players won't be able to get a writ in edgewise.

Devilsbane

08-30-2007, 12:36 PM

Now last time I helped my guild level before we hit the cap, I remember 20k personal (2k guild) status would add maybe .25% to level 59. So unless Guild levels 61-80 takes far less experience, that would mean a guild would need like 25 players with Station Access accounts (12 characters each ) filled with nothing but t7 status items to make between Guild level 65 to 70. <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/385970365b8ed7503b4294502a458efa.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" />If they are going to add this type of requirement to status items, then they need to change higher status items slightly. If it is a t2 status item it need this requirement. (Selling it also earners guild status if your guild equals level 10 or below 20.) Reason is I still see newer guilds exploiting the current system by turning in higher status items when their guild is a lower level. This would make the change consistent. <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/49869fe8223507d7223db3451e5321aa.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" />Okay, seriously this change on the test server is one of the worst. It reverses Guild Experience decay which required lots of high level guild members. <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/0320a00cb4bb5629ab9fc2bc1fcc4e9e.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" />

Vonotar

08-30-2007, 12:37 PM

Part of the problem is that many guilds use the members individual 'guild status' as a way of determining their rank within the guild. (Not our own guild I must add).So lower level players will have a method of generating status (i.e. progressing their rank) taken away from them...Meanwhile the farmers continue to sell high level status items for as much gold as they can get...Make them NO-TRADE, nobody should be able to claim 'status' for kills they did not achieve themselves.

Freliant

08-30-2007, 12:37 PM

When you pick up writs, (at least when I do) I pick them up because I am going to be doing some quests or other actions in the area in question. A by-product of my adventuring is that I do a writ, so its anything BUT mind-numbing. And you are mistaken on how farmers work. They stake out an easy area and kill everything, mainly named if they can help it. They do not go to T7 zones because they will most likely be killed by the mobs, or trained by peaved players, hence, they will have a big chunk of their funds cut off.And T8 items currently drop from all level 70+ mobs. Those will still give status to level 60 guilds once RoK comes out.There is one thing they could do IMO... make it so that all status items in the game automatically give their status to the person holding them, and all future status item automatically give status to the person that loots it and their guild. And on top of this, they could make grey mobs not drop status items. That would solve the current "hoarding" problem and will still allow low level players to contribute to their high level guilds through meaningless deaths.

ke'la

08-30-2007, 12:38 PM

<cite>Kaalenarc@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>This is an incredibly bad idea, and once again, implemented without communication from the DEVs - they just throw in a major change without discussion or concern for the community. Will some guilds hoard the items? Yep. So what? Now all they will do is hoard all the T7 ones. The change effectively makes anyone under level 20 unable to contribute on a consistent basis and whats worse - creates a ton of essentially useless loot. The first ten guild levels are relatively easy to get. The solution is simple. Make 60-80 take a VERY long time to get. Long enough so that status items are of minimal impact.But dont take away a new players ability to contribute to his higher ranked guild. Thats just poor thinking. And lastly, once again SOE proves it has not learned its lesson by not communicating with the community. Its the Star Wars Galaxies NGE fiasco all over again. That DEV team went down this path. Now EQ2 is on the same course. Think Im overreacting? Note the change in forums policy, no more guild recruiting threads allowed. Discussed with the community? Nope. Stealth changes to loot drops? Check. Its the same show all over again. Here's a hint DEV team : If you think your decision is ultimately going to prove unpopular with the community, instead of sneaking it in, TALK TO THE COMMUNITY ABOUT IT. Maybe its an error , maybe its some kind of glitch. But frankly, not having it announced as a change and giving the community a chance to discuss it WITH the dev team, is simply poor customer service.I love this game, I really do. And overall its doing some great things. But changes like this, especially when they are put in without notice, are just terrible.</blockquote>Ok now your going over board, not telling the community that 85% of the classes are going away and its changing from an RPG style game into an FPS style game is completly differant, then ONE DEV forgetting to tell the person that logs the updates(for placement into the notes) that they made a minor change to the writ iteams, or more likly that the minor change was done.Like others have said, you really should not be able to Farm lvl 60 creatures to level a lvl 70 guild. I personally think this is a good change that is long over due. Should there have been something in the update notes? Yes. Are the devs currently working 18hr days and trying to do 10 things at once, wich could lead to making mistakes like not telling the Update Logger that a change went in? YES.

Terron

08-30-2007, 12:38 PM

<cite>Kalyai wrote:</cite><blockquote>Currently, even with a level 60 guild.. .our members turn in their status loot for what it was intended to be used for... to GAIN STATUS so that they can buy horses, pay upkeep on houses, buy pvp gear..etc etc... </blockquote>They will still be able to do all those things. Personal status isn't affected by the change, only guild status.

Seagoat

08-30-2007, 12:39 PM

I'd like to add my voice to those asking for this change to be reconsidered.I'm leader of a small guild that mostly consists of my own alts anymore, plus a few friends from outside the game. My higher-level girls sell the loot they don't need and sometimes use the coin they received to purchase stacks of status items off the broker to help level the guild (which is now -- finally -- almost level 30).Grinding writs isn't enough. Selling the few status items I've collected on my own isn't enough. Granted, I knew it wouldn't be easy being a "guild of one" after the rest of the active members headed for the hills, but being able to purchase and turn in stacks of status loot to increase my guild level by a couple of percent here and there makes me feel as if I'm actually making progress.I don't raid -- hell, I don't even group much anymore -- and I've invested a lot of time and energy into my guild. I don't want to feel like I'm being forced to join a larger guild because it's next to impossible for me to eventually make something of my small, quiet, perfectly acceptable guild.The amount of status contributed per member has already been slashed once, and it's hurt small guilds. I feel that doing this will only hurt them further.

PublicVoid

08-30-2007, 12:40 PM

This change is awesome and way overdue. There should never be anything you can stockpile to trivialize a major feature of an expansion.

Cynith

08-30-2007, 12:41 PM

Going out on a limb here with a wild guess... I'm betting that there is NOT going to be any T8/T9 status loot available.... Sounds to me like they are phasing status loot out of the game but going to still allow the loot that is left to be used on any pre level 60 guild to clear it from the market place.I wonder if anyone on test has found any status loot drops from mobs or if that has dried up... (I think I might go check that out)I think the stealth maneuver however is wrong!! Maybe they don't need to tell us "WHAT" is in store for RoK... but they should let us know "THAT" our system is changing instead of sneaking it in on test for someone to "maybe" find it...In my opinion... If status loot disappeared completely it wouldn't be such a bad thing as long as it's across the board... Use this junk up on smaller guilds and don't let any more drop... Maybe they have other plans for status earnings coming up in RoK that we're not aware of... *hopeful thinking*

ke'la

08-30-2007, 12:43 PM

<cite>Jenesi wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Freliant wrote:</cite><blockquote>This change only affects the guilds that have been hoarding thousands upon thousands of these items in hopes of auto-maxing their guild when the expansion comes out. Personally, I am happy this went into play... I can now sell the many hundreds of these things that I have saved up since my guild dinged to 60. Getting a guild level should be an accomplishment that show's your guilds dedication to doing things for the guild, NOT something that can be done just because you have the money for it.</blockquote>And doing T1 collection quests and getting xp for them is a bad thing then then also? You can buy them or spend the time running around a zone collecting them to save up and insta lvl your char when RoK comes out. What is the difference? If you have the money to spend buying crap to help lvl your guild then bye all means its your money <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />" width="15" height="15" /> If they dont want these used buy higher lvl ppl to raise guild lvl then why not just make them like the quest item crap. If you are over that tier they will just not show up for you to loot. </blockquote>The XP you gain from quests GOES DOWN as you lvl, you turn in a T1 collection quest and you might as well not be getting any XP. In fact Status Loot iteams are the ONLY way to lvl ANYTHING in game that does not lose a sugnificant amount of "XP" once you have out lvled it.

liveja

08-30-2007, 12:43 PM

<cite>PublicVoid wrote:</cite><blockquote>There should never be anything you can stockpile to trivialize a major feature of an expansion.</blockquote>This change does NOTHING to prevent guilds below level 60 from stockpiling status items to trivialize a major feature of the expansion.All it does is tell level 60 guilds, "Get back to mindless grinding!"

Vonotar

08-30-2007, 12:43 PM

<cite>PublicVoid wrote:</cite><blockquote>This change is awesome and way overdue.There should never be anything you can stockpile to trivialize a major feature of an expansion. </blockquote>Yeah, cos hurting every guild below level 60, just to stop level 60 guilds from stock-piling is a 'solution'.Plat sellers will increase the price of status items and make even more plat because they know that mid-level (30-40) guilds cannot use lower, cheaper status items to level.

Freliant

08-30-2007, 12:44 PM

<cite>Flaye@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>PublicVoid wrote:</cite><blockquote>There should never be anything you can stockpile to trivialize a major feature of an expansion.</blockquote>This change does NOTHING to prevent guilds below level 60 from stockpiling status items to trivialize a major feature of the expansion.All it does is tell level 60 guilds, "Get back to mindless grinding!"</blockquote>BS. If the guild is below level 60, they are not stockpiling status item. They are turning them in.

Wilin

08-30-2007, 12:45 PM

Hmm, what about Beryllium Relics and the equivalent items?Are those T8 status items?They do give more status than the regular T7 items and they drop off 70+ mobs.I have some on my copied toon that I can check when I get home later today.

Vonotar

08-30-2007, 12:46 PM

<cite>Cynith@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>Going out on a limb here with a wild guess... I'm betting that there is NOT going to be any T8/T9 status loot available.... Sounds to me like they are phasing status loot out of the game but going to still allow the loot that is left to be used on any pre level 60 guild to clear it from the market place.I wonder if anyone on test has found any status loot drops from mobs or if that has dried up... (I think I might go check that out)I think the stealth maneuver however is wrong!! Maybe they don't need to tell us "WHAT" is in store for RoK... but they should let us know "THAT" our system is changing instead of sneaking it in on test for someone to "maybe" find it...In my opinion... If status loot disappeared completely it wouldn't be such a bad thing as long as it's across the board... Use this junk up on smaller guilds and don't let any more drop... Maybe they have other plans for status earnings coming up in RoK that we're not aware of... *hopeful thinking*</blockquote>If that is the case they should say so, a lot of objections would be dropped if that was the case.However, restricting the items to certain levels does not suggest that they are about to be phased out.

Freliant

08-30-2007, 12:48 PM

<cite>Vonotar@Butcherblock wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>PublicVoid wrote:</cite><blockquote>This change is awesome and way overdue.There should never be anything you can stockpile to trivialize a major feature of an expansion.</blockquote>Yeah, cos hurting every guild below level 60, just to stop level 60 guilds from stock-piling is a 'solution'.Plat sellers will increase the price of status items and make even more plat because they know that mid-level (30-40) guilds cannot use lower, cheaper status items to level.</blockquote>In RoK they did away with contested epic mobs... why? because it was content that less than a percent of a percent of the server population did because it was constantly camped by raiding guilds. So yes... most of the time the entire server has to hurt because of the actions of the few. I am willing to bet that if guilds never stockpiled status items, this change would never come to play.

Hennyo

08-30-2007, 12:49 PM

Tier 8 status items are already in the game people.With that said, they just drop off of lvl 71+ mobs. So if you want to lvl your guild to 70 instantly, you just have to farm these. On a side note, anyone who DIDN'T see this coming, really needs to ask themselves, does sony intend for my guild to have a way to click a button and instantly level to cap the day the expansion comes out. On the other hand, I know most people, just don't seem to have the ability to see into the future when it comes to whats going to be nerfed cause its broken. Another change we need to see, Collection quests no longer require you to hail a npc to complete them, they are auto finished as soon as finish collecting the pieces. Hail the previous turn in npc's to collect your rewards.

Cynith

08-30-2007, 12:49 PM

<cite>Vonotar@Butcherblock wrote:</cite> <blockquote>If that is the case they should say so, a lot of objections would be dropped if that was the case.However, restricting the items to certain levels does not suggest that they are about to be phased out.</blockquote>I did say the stealth maneuver was wrong.... and it was just a though about the phasing out... I'm going to check out the test server to see if I can get any loot to drop from mobs... If it's still dropping then yes phasing is not the case... Hope we can get a Dev reply on this post... that would be nice <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

liveja

08-30-2007, 12:49 PM

<cite>Freliant wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Flaye@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>PublicVoid wrote:</cite><blockquote>There should never be anything you can stockpile to trivialize a major feature of an expansion.</blockquote>This change does NOTHING to prevent guilds below level 60 from stockpiling status items to trivialize a major feature of the expansion.All it does is tell level 60 guilds, "Get back to mindless grinding!"</blockquote>BS. If the guild is below level 60, they are not stockpiling status item. They are turning them in.</blockquote>OK, you're right about that, but the fact still remains: only level 60 guilds -- as you yourself said -- are affected by this change.If you think that's fair, or good, or needed, then .... well, I'll just stop there.

Sapphirius

08-30-2007, 12:50 PM

<cite>Freliant wrote:</cite><blockquote> And you are mistaken on how farmers work. They stake out an easy area and kill everything, mainly named if they can help it. They do not go to T7 zones because they will most likely be killed by the mobs, or trained by peaved players, hence, they will have a big chunk of their funds cut off.</blockquote>Uh. WRONG. Come to LDL, and I'll introduce you to Fireball of the Bang. They can always be found on the Isle of Aversion in Barren Sky.

Freliant

08-30-2007, 12:52 PM

<cite>Flaye@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Freliant wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Flaye@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>PublicVoid wrote:</cite><blockquote>There should never be anything you can stockpile to trivialize a major feature of an expansion.</blockquote>This change does NOTHING to prevent guilds below level 60 from stockpiling status items to trivialize a major feature of the expansion.All it does is tell level 60 guilds, "Get back to mindless grinding!"</blockquote>BS. If the guild is below level 60, they are not stockpiling status item. They are turning them in.</blockquote>OK, you're right about that, but the fact still remains: only level 60 guilds -- as you yourself said -- are affected by this change.If you think that's fair, or good, or needed, then .... well, I'll just stop there.</blockquote>Its fair - It puts all level 60 guilds on equal footing.Its good - Stops a method of income for plat farmersIts needed - Past 3 expansions this has been exploited making guilds level up at an unintended pace.

Mordith

08-30-2007, 12:52 PM

KannaWhoopass

08-30-2007, 12:53 PM

I can see why sopme people may be upset by this .. If you had the plan of dinging you guild to lvl 80 10 min into the expansion.. and were hoarding status items. But really does that make sense ?I can also see it being valid because .. now there would be a link between the guild members and the guild level. You can still do heritage quests .. new players can still do writs and guild raids.. But only the players who are in the upper tiers can turn in status items gained from killing content. Of appropriate level. Meaning close to the guilds level. It would eliminate the guilds of lvl 20 players with a lvl 60 guild.It has been such a long time since a guild and level increase that it would make leveleing the guild trivial .

liveja

08-30-2007, 12:53 PM

<cite>Freliant wrote:</cite> <blockquote>And you are mistaken on how farmers work. They stake out an easy area and kill everything, mainly named if they can help it. They do not go to T7 zones because they will most likely be killed by the mobs.</blockquote>REALLY? So, then, all the numerous threads about farmer groups in Barren Sky were simply wrong, all this time?

Freliant

08-30-2007, 12:53 PM

<cite>Sapphirius wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Freliant wrote:</cite><blockquote> And you are mistaken on how farmers work. They stake out an easy area and kill everything, mainly named if they can help it. They do not go to T7 zones because they will most likely be killed by the mobs, or trained by peaved players, hence, they will have a big chunk of their funds cut off.</blockquote>Uh. WRONG. Come to LDL, and I'll introduce you to Fireball of the Bang. They can always be found on the Isle of Aversion in Barren Sky.</blockquote>So you are saying they are NOT killing easy content?

TniEradani

08-30-2007, 12:56 PM

This is a monstrous STEALTH change. SOE needs to learn how to COMMUNICATE. How about a statement of how you [SOE] envisions the game, what you [SOE] intend for mechanisms, exploits that you [SOE] don't like and want to find solutions for. You [SOE] guys just go and change the fundamentals of the game and never tell anyone why. In this case, I might see why they did it:<cite>Xunen wrote:</cite><blockquote><snip>I gave like 500 plat to those <strike>china</strike> farmers to buy Status Loot</snip></blockquote>Since SOE has logs of absolutely everything that goes on and probably 100's of programs analyzing those logs, they may have noticed a trend of suspected bots making lots of plat off status items recently.However, failure to communicate does not make for a happy player base. Please, some statement such as "Because the intention of the status items was originally envisioned as ____ and they're now being misused in this and that way, we're going to limit their usefulness by ____."If this change goes through it will have the immediate effect of not allowing guild level 60-80 in a day or two. Is this a good thing? IDK. Maybe, maybe not. There will also be a great many side-effects of this change, such as screwing over low level toons from contributing to guild status.But why couldn't SOE start a thread somewhere about it BEFORE they just go ahead and change the rules so drastically. This feels like "this is our game and you'll play it however we want you to".Open a dialogue with us about your visions for the game. You may "own" the game, but we spend a good amount of our time here and the rules being a cheshire snake is as dysfunctional as it gets.

Sapphirius

08-30-2007, 12:56 PM

<cite>Freliant wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Sapphirius wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Freliant wrote:</cite><blockquote> And you are mistaken on how farmers work. They stake out an easy area and kill everything, mainly named if they can help it. They do not go to T7 zones because they will most likely be killed by the mobs, or trained by peaved players, hence, they will have a big chunk of their funds cut off.</blockquote>Uh. WRONG. Come to LDL, and I'll introduce you to Fireball of the Bang. They can always be found on the Isle of Aversion in Barren Sky.</blockquote>So you are saying they are NOT killing easy content?</blockquote>Are you saying that Barren Sky is NOT a T7 zone?

liveja

08-30-2007, 12:58 PM

<cite>Freliant wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>Its fair - It puts all level 60 guilds on equal footing.</blockquote>But guilds below level 60 are not on that same footing, & can turn in all the status items they want, while level 60 guilds are restricted to the very very few T8 items that drop. That doesn't seem particularly fair to me.If it's a matter of affecting plat farmer income, a much better method would have been to flag them "no trade".Needed? You're telling me this was not only the only method of preventing trivialization, but the BEST one?

Wilin

08-30-2007, 01:00 PM

<cite>Freliant wrote:</cite><blockquote>Its fair - It puts all level 60 guilds on equal footing.</blockquote>Not exactly equal. Raiding guilds will have a small leg up because they have likely been getting more T8 status items that they can use when RoK comes out.

Cynith

08-30-2007, 01:02 PM

<cite>Freliant wrote:</cite> <blockquote>Its needed - Past 3 expansions this has been exploited making guilds level up at an unintended pace.</blockquote>I don't know about any one else but the 'GRIND' from level 50-60 was the most horrific grind we ever endured... As a family style guild our members were pumping out writ after writ after writ.... and tons of HQs almost non stop for so long I don't even want to remember it! The status loot.... very small, a lot of it was contributed but barely pinged the bar even when dropped in large quantites.. Every since we hit 60 I cringe every time a member completes a HQ knowing that there is one less HQ that is going to count towards the unbelievable grind to 80... *shrug* Additionally this change is NOT going to affect the farmers... if the lower level loot is still out there, it's still going to be worth plat to the farmers... at all tiers! If that's the reasoning behind the change... it's just wrong... The no-trade option is probably the best I've heard so far

ke'la

08-30-2007, 01:05 PM

<cite>Kaalenarc@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Freliant wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Vonotar@Butcherblock wrote:</cite><blockquote>This would affectively make turning in T1 and T2 status items a waste of time for our guild members (we are currently guild level 23).But guess what!... a lot of our guild members are actually below level 20... so how does that work?I can see level 60+ guilds refused to accept low level players in the future on the grounds that they 'can't contribute'.Guilds that require members to gain status before promotions will effectively be forcing many lower level people to grind writs in order to gain that status.I can't believe that any level 60 guilds are currently hording huge number of low level status items, so your harming the lowest level people in a misguided attempt to harm the biggest guilds...</blockquote>If they are low level, then they can get a huge boost in status just by doing HQs.And if they are too low for an HQ? They now have zero means of contribution. You can do your first HQ at lvl 15(below that most people are not conserned with "helping thier guild" they are trying to learn how to play. Plus they can do lvl 10 writs, 1 lvl 10 writ gives atleast 10 times the "Contribution" as 1 guild status iteam. If they are higher levels, then writs should not be a problem, be they adventuring writs, or crafting writs, which can be done at any adventure level. So for those that wanted to contribute through means OTHER than repetitive gameplay? Again no other option but to sit and repeat the same task endlessly over and over. "Status" as I understand it - is supposed to be , in essence, how famous your guild is. Doing HQs - great, Writs...ehhh. THe one aspect that was , to me , a little more immersive, was the loot. Because I could be out , on ANY adventure or quest, and that contributed to my teams renown. It even gave higher level folks a small incentive to mentor. I wont get any xp - but at least I can get a little status.Accually Guild status has nothing to do with how "Famous" your guild is, it has to do with how much of a service you have been to the city. The more you help the city you are the more status you got. THE LEAST immersive was the loot iteams, how does it help the city to bring back to the fighters guild its 1millionth little budda that you got killing a creature that was so far below you that 1 auto attack killed it.This is not preventing low level players from contributing... it is just preventing max level guilds from hoarding the status items in order to exploit the system and quickly level their guild. If they want to control leveling speed, all they have to do is simply make the xp requirements for guild level substantially higher. You could even make levels 60-63 higher than any other to offset that initial rush of status turn ins. Wich would not solve the problem they are trying to fix(Status Iteam hording) only make it worst, while at the same time HARMING every guild not at the cap in game.And trust me... guilds do hoard those once they reach max level. For example, when my guild reached max level through pure writ/HQs/city raid/normal raids/unrest I started putting all the status items I got on my shared bank slots and giving them to a low level alt. I pretty much have hundreds, if not thousands of them already... but you know what... that change is not going to affect me heavily because most of my status items are T8 from killing level 70+ mobs in very hard areas of the game. The only ones that are going to be affected are the ones below that tier. And what do you think players with the "hoard" mentality are going to do to power level their guilds with no status items? Thats right, camp the hell out of writ areas to ensure they get ownership of it. I can almost hear the "he stole my mobs" cries now. First, being that you have to return to your home city every time you finish your 4 quests, and that you still get guild XP off drops in the RoK zones, and that as you lvl to 80 the writs change, and that you still get more guild XP from doing the "easy" HQs and killing Raid MoBs(especally the City Raid ones) I think that there won't be too much of an issue with over camping of Writ mobs(especally consitering they will likly be kill by Speed lvlers first)Level 60 guilds will still accept members. It will be delusional to think otherwise, since the biggest chunks of status do not come from these items, they come from the new member doing his HQs or doing some werits.Some guilds will, some guilds wont. A blanket statement like the above isnt very accurate. Id be willing to bet that SOME guilds wont accept members below a certain level. Which will lead to a ton of mini guilds forming. Is that good or bad? neither - just an interesting side effect. The same guilds that won't except players below a certain lvl because they can't turn in an iteam that will give the guild 10 points of guild XP, are a) not the kind of guild I would want to be in, b) probly are already not excepting people below a certain lvl, and c) are really dumb because the HQs that the New Player has not done yet are worth 10000x the XP that the new player could possably turn in from loot they gained themselfsAgain, and sorry to sound redundant, but this is in fact a good change that will prevent guilds from racing too quickly to max level while the only excercise they did was with their wallet. It is a shame they will loose the money from already purchasing all those status items, but hey... they should have seen it coming. Why do I say this? Take a look at what happened when DoF came out: guilds disbanded all their members except a few that were flagged as for status. Those members would then do writs, HQs and HQs until the guild reached max level, and they would again re-invite all members back into the guild. When KoS came out, they changed it so that everyone could contribute to status, but in order to not harm the smaller guilds that had a limited amount of members, they decided to let the amount of status you recieve fluctuate depending on how many members you had. Instead of saying: alright guys, all status counts, lets go work on our guild... they decided to disband every single member and turn in status items to reach max level right away... Well, for EoF they decided, ok, now it doesn't matter how many people are in your guild, everyone will recieve the same amount of status reguardless. The result... no one disbanded anymore, which was a plus... but they still managed to gain max level in one day by just selling status items.. so now that RoK is coming, what does that tell you is gonna happen?Again - you can eliminate the hoarding by simply making the level requirements so much higher. Raise the status rewards for HQs and writs above say, level 60. And make the status requirement significantly higher. Doing so would reduce , but not eliminate, the value of status items. In other words, say HQs give 1500 now, make em give 4000 but keep the amounts for the status items the same and raise the amount needed. So that the HQ or writ % value to level stays the same but the status item % of level value drops. In this way, hoarding becomes useless, or at least much less valuable, and lowbies can still feel like they are contributing. Again raising the XP required would do more harm to new players ablity to contribute (again you can start doing HQs at 15) then adding the same trival code that is in game for ALL other forms of XP. Personally I can't see how a lowbe can feel like they are contributing by turning in a status iteam and seen absolutly NOTHING happening to the XP bar. On the other hand turning in an HQ even the lvl 15 one does move the XP bar some.Trivializing guild levels was NEVER intended, and unfortunately, we now all have to bite the bullet because of the exploits of some guilds. Again, I think its a welcome change.Respectfully, I think its a terrible change, undervalues newer players , and most importantly, stealth nerfs are never, ever, a good thing. Such a major change should have been announced.Its not a major change its putting in the same Trival Code thats in the game for ALL OTHER forms of gaining XP. Also the only reason it was "unanouced" is because the Dev that was tasked to put this in, forgot to log the change with the person who puts together the update notes, and consitering the craziness that is going on at SoE right now I can completly understand why it was not logged</blockquote></blockquote>

Dasein

08-30-2007, 01:05 PM

<cite>Flaye@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Freliant wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>Its fair - It puts all level 60 guilds on equal footing.</blockquote>But guilds below level 60 are not on that same footing, & can turn in all the status items they want, while level 60 guilds are restricted to the very very few T8 items that drop. That doesn't seem particularly fair to me.If it's a matter of affecting plat farmer income, a much better method would have been to flag them "no trade".Needed? You're telling me this was not only the only method of preventing trivialization, but the BEST one?</blockquote>The level restrictions affect all guilds, not just level 60 guilds, so a level 30 guild could no more turn in T2 status items than a level 60 guild. The only guilds that can turn in all status items are under level 10.

Vonotar

08-30-2007, 01:06 PM

<cite>Flaye@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Freliant wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>Its fair - It puts all level 60 guilds on equal footing.</blockquote>But guilds below level 60 are not on that same footing, & can turn in all the status items they want, while level 60 guilds are restricted to the very very few T8 items that drop. That doesn't seem particularly fair to me.If it's a matter of affecting plat farmer income, a much better method would have been to flag them "no trade".Needed? You're telling me this was not only the only method of preventing trivialization, but the BEST one?</blockquote>It hurts all people who have an adventure level around 5-10 levels lower than the guild they are a member of, as their status items will be useless to their guild. So what we have here is an ill conceived idea to stop level 60 guilds from insta-levelling, but which hurts a huge section of the player base who are not in level 60 guilds and/or have not been stockpiling.I suspect that some who missed the idea of stockpiling are in favour of the idea to stop their competitors from getting a head start, but still allowing them to buy status items.

Dasein

08-30-2007, 01:07 PM

<cite>Wilin wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Freliant wrote:</cite><blockquote>Its fair - It puts all level 60 guilds on equal footing.</blockquote>Not exactly equal. Raiding guilds will have a small leg up because they have likely been getting more T8 status items that they can use when RoK comes out.</blockquote>No, raiding guilds won't - status items drop off all mobs equally. If anything raiding guilds are killing fewer mobs per person, thus decreasing the total number of status items. If you take a raid of 24 through MMIS or FT, you'll likely end up with fewer T8 status items than you will taking 4 groups of 6 through Unrest.

ke'la

08-30-2007, 01:10 PM

Cynith

08-30-2007, 01:10 PM

<cite>Dasein wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Wilin wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Freliant wrote:</cite><blockquote>Its fair - It puts all level 60 guilds on equal footing.</blockquote>Not exactly equal. Raiding guilds will have a small leg up because they have likely been getting more T8 status items that they can use when RoK comes out.</blockquote>No, raiding guilds won't - status items drop off all mobs equally. If anything raiding guilds are killing fewer mobs per person, thus decreasing the total number of status items. If you take a raid of 24 through MMIS or FT, you'll likely end up with fewer T8 status items than you will taking 4 groups of 6 through Unrest. </blockquote>Raiding guilds always have a leg up because many of the mobs they kill are actually worth status points towards the guild... The status loot is very small compared to that.

Dasein

08-30-2007, 01:17 PM

<cite>Cynith@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Dasein wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Wilin wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Freliant wrote:</cite><blockquote>Its fair - It puts all level 60 guilds on equal footing.</blockquote>Not exactly equal. Raiding guilds will have a small leg up because they have likely been getting more T8 status items that they can use when RoK comes out.</blockquote>No, raiding guilds won't - status items drop off all mobs equally. If anything raiding guilds are killing fewer mobs per person, thus decreasing the total number of status items. If you take a raid of 24 through MMIS or FT, you'll likely end up with fewer T8 status items than you will taking 4 groups of 6 through Unrest. </blockquote>Raiding guilds always have a leg up because many of the mobs they kill are actually worth status points towards the guild... The status loot is very small compared to that.</blockquote>While true, there's no way to stockpile that guild status. Further, non-raiding guilds can take out older T6 content and earn status for those kills. A single group of relatively well equipped level 74 characters should be able to take out the named in Courts of Al'Afaz, for example. Unrest also awards 1000 points of guild status to every player in the group each time it is completed.

Cynith

08-30-2007, 01:18 PM

<cite>Dasein wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Cynith@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Dasein wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Wilin wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Freliant wrote:</cite><blockquote>Its fair - It puts all level 60 guilds on equal footing.</blockquote>Not exactly equal. Raiding guilds will have a small leg up because they have likely been getting more T8 status items that they can use when RoK comes out.</blockquote>No, raiding guilds won't - status items drop off all mobs equally. If anything raiding guilds are killing fewer mobs per person, thus decreasing the total number of status items. If you take a raid of 24 through MMIS or FT, you'll likely end up with fewer T8 status items than you will taking 4 groups of 6 through Unrest. </blockquote>Raiding guilds always have a leg up because many of the mobs they kill are actually worth status points towards the guild... The status loot is very small compared to that.</blockquote>While true, there's no way to stockpile that guild status. Further, non-raiding guilds can take out older T6 content and earn status for those kills. A single group of relatively well equipped level 74 characters should be able to take out the named in Courts of Al'Afaz, for example. Unrest also awards 1000 points of guild status to every player in the group each time it is completed.</blockquote>I totally agree and I wasn't complaining about raid guilds having a leg up... that's expected.. only noting that the status loot was a trivial part of leveling for a raid guild

Wilin

08-30-2007, 01:19 PM

<cite>Cynith@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Dasein wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Wilin wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Freliant wrote:</cite><blockquote>Its fair - It puts all level 60 guilds on equal footing.</blockquote>Not exactly equal. Raiding guilds will have a small leg up because they have likely been getting more T8 status items that they can use when RoK comes out.</blockquote>No, raiding guilds won't - status items drop off all mobs equally. If anything raiding guilds are killing fewer mobs per person, thus decreasing the total number of status items. If you take a raid of 24 through MMIS or FT, you'll likely end up with fewer T8 status items than you will taking 4 groups of 6 through Unrest. </blockquote>Raiding guilds always have a leg up because many of the mobs they kill are actually worth status points towards the guild... The status loot is very small compared to that.</blockquote>My thought, whether accurate or not, was that there are alot more 71+ mobs in raids than there are outside raids. And, oddly enough, up until this point, no one has been farming the T8 status items because the lower tier items are alot easier to get so raiding guilds probably have alot more T8 status items in the bank right now.

ke'la

08-30-2007, 01:19 PM

<cite>shaunfletcher wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Wilin wrote:</cite><blockquote>Err, one of the earlier posters said that the T7 items would work for guild level below 60. I didn't see anyone else react to that so I will by asking:Does this mean that even T7 items are useless to a level 60 guild? If what the earlier poster said is true, level 60 guilds will have no items that can be turned in for status until the expansion comes out and we start killing 71+ mobs?</blockquote>It seems to be the case that any status item currently in the game will not be useable to level past the current cap. This would be consistent with the T2 status items being <level 10. T3=<20. T4=<30. T5=<40. T6=<50. T7=<60.So indeed, for members of a level 60 guild, all status items they have or acquire pre-rok are useless for their guild. Even if obtained at the highest current levels of the game.Ooops.</blockquote>Accually if you kill a mob that is lvl 70+ or in dungons they drop T8 status iteams, so there are iteams currently in game that lvl60 guilds can hord and turn in. You just can't farm greys anymore to lvl your guild.

Dasein

08-30-2007, 01:21 PM

<cite>Wilin wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Cynith@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Dasein wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Wilin wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Freliant wrote:</cite><blockquote>Its fair - It puts all level 60 guilds on equal footing.</blockquote>Not exactly equal. Raiding guilds will have a small leg up because they have likely been getting more T8 status items that they can use when RoK comes out.</blockquote>No, raiding guilds won't - status items drop off all mobs equally. If anything raiding guilds are killing fewer mobs per person, thus decreasing the total number of status items. If you take a raid of 24 through MMIS or FT, you'll likely end up with fewer T8 status items than you will taking 4 groups of 6 through Unrest. </blockquote>Raiding guilds always have a leg up because many of the mobs they kill are actually worth status points towards the guild... The status loot is very small compared to that.</blockquote>My thought, whether accurate or not, was that there are alot more 71+ mobs in raids than there are outside raids. And, oddly enough, up until this point, no one has been farming the T8 status items because the lower tier items are alot easier to get so raiding guilds probably have alot more T8 status items in the bank right now.</blockquote>Most of the popular T7 instances and zones have T8 mobs in them - OOB, Valdoons, Unrest and Mistmore Castle all have T8 heroic encounters and all are heavily farmed for legendary class armor.

Vonotar

08-30-2007, 01:26 PM

<cite>ke'la wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>Accually if you kill a mob that is lvl 70+ or in dungons they drop T8 status iteams, so there are iteams currently in game that lvl60 guilds can hord and turn in. You just can't farm greys anymore to lvl your guild.</blockquote>And you can't farm reds for status items anymore if your a low adventure level player in a high guild level guild.Do ya get it now?

Sapphirius

08-30-2007, 01:27 PM

2 to 4 hours in Unrest to gain 1K status or 30 minutes to earn it doing 4 writs in Tenebrous Tangle... Hmmmm... I foresee a lot of people with level-locked alts at 64 mindlessly farming Scaleborn Sentries.<cite>ke'la wrote:</cite><blockquote>Accually if you kill a mob that is lvl 70+ or in dungons they drop T8 status iteams, so there are iteams currently in game that lvl60 guilds can hord and turn in. You just can't farm greys anymore to lvl your guild.</blockquote>Actually, the main problem (beside this change being completely unannounced, i.e. a stealth nerf) is that those grey mobs aren't grey to everyone. Not every lvl 60 guild is full of nothing but level-capped characters. a large number of them have lower level characters who don't have higher level mains.It would have made much more sense to tie the level of the status item with the level of the person turning it in rather than the level of the guild. The easiest solution would have been to just make status items "no-trade." If it's farming grey mobs you're concerned about, then make status items chest drops instead of body drops. Yes, something needed to be done, but this was not it, and it is by far not the best solution to the "problem."

Kaalenarc

08-30-2007, 01:27 PM

Personally - the "I forgot to put it in the notes" thing , for me , at least, is wearing pretty thin. Fool me once shame on you, fool me 20 times... A change of this type, which has a direct, and significant impact on the way guilds (something MOST players are in) attain levels. should not have even made it into test without some DEV/Community interaction. This isnt the first time this has happened, nor will it be the last. If they forgot say "oh we changed the color of a mount" or forgot "we changed the dialogue of this NPC" thats one thing. But a major change (and it is a major change) like this HAS to have been discussed by a bunch of the DEVs. and evidently, NOT ONE of them thought "Hey - wouldnt it be a good idea to talk to the community before we do this?"Sometimes SOE does this - with good results. Remember the conversation that said "hey we're thinking about letting players buy server wide announcements?" - that lead to a meaningful dialogue with the community, where we expressed that it was something we didnt want and, as a result, the change was not implemented. I realize that it is impractical for every single change to the game to be discussed. But its a pretty naive person who thinks that this wouldnt be anything that A&gt<img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> we'd notice and B.) be upset about.No matter your personal position on the matter, stealth changes , nerfs, whatever, like this are NOT the way to go imho.And bear this in mind - you think its a hotbutton issue now? Wait til it hits live...most people dont come to this forum.

Frigid2000

08-30-2007, 01:31 PM

I welcome this change.On another note, I would expect the same type of change to people for those hoarding quests (including collection) to do a mass turn-in come expansion time. Blizzard in WoW for their expansion, took quests 60 and below and minimalized their experience gain, because of people attempting to do that.As for guilds lower than 60 hoarding items to turn in, that doesn't bother me. Ok, so they'll hit 60 like we are. So what? Level 60 doesn't bother me. I am willing to bet the guilds that are 60 now will see 70 long before they will. As for the smaller guilds, I don't see this change affecting you TOO much, unless I'm not thinking about it correctly.

Kenazeer

08-30-2007, 01:40 PM

Someone posted a link on antoher forum to an interview with Scott Hartsman. I had read it, but this didn't stick out enough at the time for me to recall it now. Tamat: So that's going to be significantly harder for guilds to level up during this expansion.Scott: Yeah. It is definitely not going to be, at least it shouldn't be, save up all your stuff and suddenly you're level 80 on day one. Yeah. That shouldn't be the case anymore.This implies some kind of change to the levelling process, and since he specifically mentions "save up all your stuff," I guess this has been in the works for a while now.

Devilsbane

08-30-2007, 01:41 PM

<cite>Freliant wrote:</cite><blockquote>Its fair - It puts all level 60 guilds on equal footing.Its good - Stops a method of income for plat farmersIts needed - Past 3 expansions this has been exploited making guilds level up at an unintended pace.</blockquote>No level 60 guild got to be level 60 from status items (20k personal status equals maybe .25% at Guild level 59). Starting at guild level 30 on they simply grind Guild writ raids.

Dasein

08-30-2007, 01:45 PM

On the subject of a lack of announcement, I suspect this is but one part of guild levelling/guild status changes they are planning, and there will be a dev post forthecoming outlining the entire process change. Pushing things to test can be done for various reasons, and need not coincide with dev announcements on why certain changes might be made. If these changes went live without any notification, there would be grounds for complaint.

Kaalenarc

08-30-2007, 01:47 PM

<cite>Cyque@Everfrost wrote:</cite><blockquote>I welcome this change.On another note, I would expect the same type of change to people for those hoarding quests (including collection) to do a mass turn-in come expansion time. Blizzard in WoW for their expansion, took quests 60 and below and minimalized their experience gain, because of people attempting to do that.As for guilds lower than 60 hoarding items to turn in, that doesn't bother me. Ok, so they'll hit 60 like we are. So what? Level 60 doesn't bother me. I am willing to bet the guilds that are 60 now will see 70 long before they will. As for the smaller guilds, I don't see this change affecting you TOO much, unless I'm not thinking about it correctly.</blockquote>To me, its less about the effect on the guild than it is essentially removing a guild leveling tool from some of the playerbase. Its creating...junk loot. Think about it. You're in a level 60 guild. You're level 30 and have done all the HQs up to your level. The only other way you can contribute now is repetitive grind. You can do writs. thats it. And there are a finite number of HQ's in the game so, when those run out, all you have left is writs. Over and over and over again. So, as your out and about adventuring - you're going to get all these drops of items you cant use. Which will also create an overabundance of them on the market , driving prices way down, enabling the lower guilds to level faster, so they can contribute to the problem of getting more useless items. Im sorry, but it seems to be a shortcut, not well thought out soloution to the "problem" of people leveling too fast.

kyrr

08-30-2007, 01:48 PM

So what if a guild levels to 80 in a short span of time? That's their own [Removed for Content] business.So what if a character levels to 70 in 2 weeks? That's their own business.Do not penalize players for using the tools you've given them to work with. (I've never powerleveled, not my cup of tea, but everyone is entitled to level how they see fit within the confines of it being legal.)

PublicVoid

08-30-2007, 01:52 PM

Gaining a guild level should be an accomplishment that begins at an expansion and is a testament to a guild. It is part of an expansion it shouldn't be just dropping at launch. When was the last guild level cap that really took effort to get to and was sought after as a first? Level 30? And that took a long time after launch to get.

Detherne

08-30-2007, 01:53 PM

Very very upset about this change. I worked for those status items whether it be on my two tier 7 toons or on my other lower alts and I should be able to turn those in for guild status no matter what tier the loot is. Make them no trade and locked in with adventure level, NOT guild level. Just because the guild I'm in is 60 doesn't mean our members are all t7. In fact MOST of them I believe are t5 and lower. Yeah there's writs that are ok-sometimes- and there are hq's to do *if* you want to spend your entire evening working on one specific quest, but its nice to just go out and adventure with friends and have it mean something towards your guild's status. Whether it be a few t7 loot items or a few t3 or t4 items, who cares how little it actually contributes to the exp when it means something to that person that they helped their guild.Maybe it won't be as bad as this thread is making it out to be once it goes live..IF...it goes live but it definitly would have been nice to have some kind of warning first.

Rast

08-30-2007, 01:54 PM

anyone who thinks this is going to slow down the big lvl 60 guilds is smoking something that they ought to share.1) HoS. This is a raid zone that will become more and more trivial as the levels increase, yet you can easily pull down 11-12k status here a person. You do the math here, for a zone that takes about 3 hours, you can get 264k GUILD status in about 3 hours. This would take 3,105 of those t8 statues by the way.2) Courts. This is a raid zone that is pretty trivial now, but like HoS can be farmed every 6 days (or so) for a huge amount of guild status.So if you just take those 2 items above, a guild can put on 500-600k guild status in about 5-6 hours tops. That doesn't count writs in between where you can get about 850 a pop (probably 1000 in t<img src="/eq2/images/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src=" width="15" height="15" />" width="15" height="15"> in guild status, where you can knock off 4 in an hour. (by comparison this is about 10k a person per 3 hours, assuming very effecient working). Those status items are really kinda poultry when you think about it. If you lock some people down around 64 and farm the droags, you can do about 8 writs an hour with the right classes for transportation (druid + evacer)The only thing this change does is impact how the younger folks can participate in the guild and in its advancement. It may not be alot, but anything you can add helps and they are removing this for what amounts to a patheticlly small portion of what guilds will use to level.edit: accounting math ftl <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />" width="15" height="15" />

Cynith

08-30-2007, 01:58 PM

<cite>Cynith@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>I wonder if anyone on test has found any status loot drops from mobs or if that has dried up... (I think I might go check that out)</blockquote>Status loot dropping normally on test.<conspiracy theory incoming>Maybe it's a scare tactic to get all the status loot hoarders to sell off their loot before the expansion?? LOL Likely not but I'm seriously considering handing all of my earned loot over to our storage guild before this goes live <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Samulbrar

08-30-2007, 02:05 PM

Just a reminder, from the <a href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?topic_id=170" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Test Server FAQ</a>:<hr /> Should we assume all the changes that show up on the Test server will eventually make their way to the other servers?No. Do not think of the Test server as a preview; it is a testing environment. While many changes and additions will indeed move to the live servers at some point, not all of them will. Becoming either angry or overjoyed because something changes on the Test server would be premature. In order for the Test server to fulfil its intended purpose, it must be a place where the development team has the freedom to try new ideas and theories that may not be intended for the other servers. <hr />Disclaimer: I only moderate the boards, I have nothing to do with Gameplay changes.

Captain Apple Darkberry

08-30-2007, 02:07 PM

<cite>Vonotar@Butcherblock wrote:</cite><blockquote>Make them NO-TRADE, nobody should be able to claim 'status' for kills they did not achieve themselves.</blockquote>Bingo. This would also have the benefit of placing a virtual embargo on a significant source of coin gain for the plat sellers...But then again a solution would need to be reached for all the thousands of status items already hoarded by the level 60 guilds or for sale on the market...

Sapphirius

08-30-2007, 02:08 PM

<cite>PublicVoid wrote:</cite><blockquote>Gaining a guild level should be an accomplishment that begins at an expansion and is a testament to a guild. It is part of an expansion it shouldn't be just dropping at launch.When was the last guild level cap that really took effort to get to and was sought after as a first? Level 30? And that took a long time after launch to get.</blockquote>I don't think anyone here is disagreeing with that concept. It's pretty much a general consensus that we know some guilds that raced to level cap without really working at it. It's not that we don't want to see guild level actually mean something. It's that we don't want anyone who's honestly working hard hurt in that endeavor either.What most of us are disagreeing with is that this has taken away one of the ways that lower level members could contribute. Now, lower level members are being penalized for belonging to higher level guilds. THAT is what most of us have a problem with. A lower level member in a higher level guild (no matter what the guild level is) will now only be able to mindlessly grind writs in order to contribute status to their guild because, as was pointed out, there are onlya finite number of HQs out there.Let me give you this very real example of what most of us are having a problem with.I have a level 34 warlock in a level 54 guild, After this change, she will not be able to sell status loot she finds for guild status. I have no other higher level characters on this server, and I've already completed all the HQs she can do at her level. My playtime on her is limited as she is a stealth alt character (one I play when I just need to get away from my guild and server). I don't want to spend what little time I play on her grinding writs to earn status for my guild, but I do want to be able to contribute, especially seeing as this character does not see as much playtime as her guildmates do.She's not big enough to raid anything but city writs, and there usually aren't enough of her guildmates available to mentor and do a city raid writ when I play her. I play during prime-time hours, and most of her guildmates have other plans they have to tend to. She gets guild groups just fine, but not enough for form a x2 raid.With this change, the only way I could contribute is to give up my precious limited playtime to mindlessly grind those solo writs.

Raveller

08-30-2007, 02:12 PM

I'm completely opposed to the entire 'guild' structure in EQ2 anyway. Players should join a player association because they want to play together, not because it's a means of obtaining special reward items. I think SOE should rip out guild levels completely.But, since they're not bright enough to do that, they should at least not [Removed for Content] the ability of low level characters to make contributions, however how small (10 guild sp is not a big contribution to a level 50 guild). Wouldn't it have been a lot smarter to restrict looting of reverse writs to level appropriate characters so that only T2 characters could loot, purchase, posess or sell T2 reverse writs? Restrict T3 reveres writs to T3 level characters. Etc.

Bamfa_dexter

08-30-2007, 02:14 PM

Its a welcome change to make goals in this game a tiny bit harder to obtain.

Sapphirius

08-30-2007, 02:18 PM

<cite>Raveller wrote:</cite> <blockquote>But, since they're not bright enough to do that, they should at least not [Removed for Content] the ability of low level characters to make contributions, however how small (10 guild sp is not a big contribution to a level 50 guild). Wouldn't it have been a lot smarter to restrict looting of reverse writs to level appropriate characters so that only T2 characters could loot, purchase, posess or sell T2 reverse writs? Restrict T3 reveres writs to T3 level characters. Etc.</blockquote>What's really scary is I think this is like the 3rd thing you and I have actually agreed upon. <checks to see if Hell has frozen over>

TniEradani

08-30-2007, 02:20 PM

I don't know what to say. I think this is a terrible route to follow. I'm on a PvP server, so my main PvP toons usually don't have too much trouble getting status from PvP activities. I do, however, pick up enough of these items in the course of being out and about to merit saving them up for a once a week turn-in by the toon next slated to buy a status purchase - so, I don't like the No-Trade option at all. Slightly off-topic. Why can Lore items not be given directly to an alt but can be sold or given to someone else? Seems to me that Lore items could more properly belong to the account that acquired them.I also don't like that low level toons cannot contribute in this way to their guild status or the guild's level. Putting limits on how people can choose to play is not a good things.And I think we've got a problem as far as designating which tier these items belong in. The status items listed for guilds with level less than 10, what are being called T1 items - they drop off T2 mobs.Well, I guess what I'll do since I belong to a new level 8 guild is use strictly these status items for leveling the guild to level 10. No more HQs, no more writs, no more tradeskill writs - nothing but these status items and what I get from normal PvP activities until guild level 10. Cause as soon as we ding level 10, they're vendor trash for me.Might as well just get rid of them since they'll be vendor trash, like they did with the language thingies with the excuse of removing bag clutter - [Gnoll Language Treaties] 10s each, when they leave in [arachnid legs] for 7c.SOE, you're hurting new players and new toons most with this change, as well as other recent changes. Quit making the game more over-complicated every day.

Rast

08-30-2007, 02:24 PM

<cite>Kaif@Befallen wrote:</cite><blockquote>Its a welcome change to make goals in this game a tiny bit harder to obtain. </blockquote>but that is jsut it Kaif, it doesn't, it just shuts out one segment of the population from being able to contribute. Like I said before, anyone who thinks this is going to slow down the lvl 60 guilds who either raid or have a number of raiders in their ranks, needs to share whatever it is they are smoking. Those little statues are only a trivial part of the status that will be generated in the first week of the expansion. It will take 13 of the t8 statues to even make up one 3 hour HoS raid for 1 person, or 310 of them for an entire raid, which would be about 15 stacks, give or take a few. That is for but a single t7 raid and that isnt' the only raid that gives status. Yah, it might cause a small spike, but after that spike the amount they contribute will be but an annoyance.

Sordia

08-30-2007, 02:28 PM

Wow. This hurts every guild. I know that I just recruited no less then 3 new to EQ2 people to my guild. We are only level 43, but this kills their ability to contribute. I know that one of the recruits was so happy to hear that he could help out. He was glad not for the personal status, but that his hunting and turning in those items mattered. Even if it was just a little bit.*shakes head*This is bad.

Sapphirius

08-30-2007, 02:29 PM

<cite>Kaif@Befallen wrote:</cite><blockquote>Its a welcome change to make goals in this game a tiny bit harder to obtain. </blockquote>It's only a welcome change if it doesn't hurt anyone in the process.In this case, the only people being truly hurt are those lower level players in higher level guilds. All those people who saved up those status items? They can still farm status items at level cap to contribute. but for a level 30 player in a level 60 guild? He can't walked up to a level 70+ mobs and kill it for a status item. This change has effectively cut that level 30 player off from a means of contributing to his/her guild.

kreepr

08-30-2007, 02:29 PM

<cite>Vonotar@Butcherblock wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>ke'la wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>Accually if you kill a mob that is lvl 70+ or in dungons they drop T8 status iteams, so there are iteams currently in game that lvl60 guilds can hord and turn in. You just can't farm greys anymore to lvl your guild.</blockquote>And you can't farm reds for status items anymore if your a low adventure level player in a high guild level guild.Do ya get it now?</blockquote>Fangirl wont get it...........I kill mobs and gather alot of these about 4 to5 stacks every other day and I only turn them in about every other week. Now the point is yes its not much when I only turn in a few here and there but over time and threw my normal game play that status ads up to a good amount. Admit it or not it does add up for the lower level players. Now if this change happens I lose that accumulated amount that I would be handing in on a regular basis. Not a fair move at all. You wanna come kill these red level 71's for me and give me the status drops?? No you wont do that, so don't sit here and say its fair to take away one of the ways I help with leveling my guild KK.

Jesdyr

08-30-2007, 02:31 PM

<cite>Jalathan@Lucan DLere wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>It will take 13 of the t8 statues to even make up one 3 hour HoS raid for 1 person, or 310 of them for an entire raid, which would be about 15 stacks, give or take a few. That is for but a single t7 raid and that isnt' the only raid that gives status. Yah, it might cause a small spike, but after that spike the amount they contribute will be but an annoyance.</blockquote>You dont understand that there are people with mules full of these. We are not talking a few stacks .. we are talking low level mules with 32slot boxes full of them. I should note I do not like this change.

Hellswrath

08-30-2007, 02:31 PM

<cite>Kaif@Befallen wrote:</cite><blockquote>Its a welcome change to make goals in this game a tiny bit harder to obtain. </blockquote>That's great. . . as long as they make the rewards for those goals worthwhile. Guild level 60 doesn't give you anything that you can't get elsewhere, except a title and a horse that you could equal by playing LoN. While I hope the rewards at 70 and 80 are impressive enough to justify this change, I seriously doubt it after reviewing the history of guild rewards over the last 3 expansions.However, this is beside the point. The real point has been restated multiple times. This severely restricts the ability of low level players to contribute to a high level guild. Do you remember how hard most of the writs you did at lvl 25 were without being twinked out? Not to mention finding enough of the mobs? This is a low blow to the low level players in the game. While I don't worry about how much status the low level players in my guild contribute, it isn't about me. It is letting them feel as though they can help contribute to something for the guild. I think a balance needs to be found. I'm not entirely against this change, as I agree guild level should be an accomplishment. However, if status loot were made no-trade, then wouldn't gathering up a great deal of it be an accomplishment?

TniEradani

08-30-2007, 02:31 PM

<cite>Aestenon wrote:</cite><blockquote>Just a reminder, from the <a rel="nofollow" href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?topic_id=170" target="_blank">Test Server FAQ</a>:<hr /> Should we assume all the changes that show up on the Test server will eventually make their way to the other servers?No. Do not think of the Test server as a preview; it is a testing environment. While many changes and additions will indeed move to the live servers at some point, not all of them will. Becoming either angry or overjoyed because something changes on the Test server would be premature. In order for the Test server to fulfil its intended purpose, it must be a place where the development team has the freedom to try new ideas and theories that may not be intended for the other servers. <hr />Disclaimer: I only moderate the boards, I have nothing to do with Gameplay changes.</blockquote>Test is also a place where we can see what new ideas and theories the development team has. The forum is a place where we can discuss them.But like I said before, how about maybe communicating ideas and theories with us and we could all discuss them without the panic.As for this idea or theory: it needs more thinking about than testing.

Mighty Melvor

08-30-2007, 02:32 PM

The way I see this is that lowbies in high level guids will be forced to sell their status items on the broker and only the lower lvl guilds will purchase them. This benefits low level guilds more than higher level ones.I understand SOE wants to give new guilds a leg-up, but to do so at the expense of the higher lvl guilds is not the answer.Want to make it fair? Make these items NO-TRADE. Then we all have a level player field!

PublicVoid

08-30-2007, 02:39 PM

No trade won't do anything to stop the thousands sitting on mules and alts right now. Invite alt , turn in, kick alt. Same goes if you restrict them to a level. You could just make anything that has dropped and will drop between now and ROK unable to help advance a guild past 60. Then find a new alternative for lower players in a guild to help out beside writs.

Hellswrath

08-30-2007, 02:40 PM

<cite>Eradani@Venekor wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Aestenon wrote:</cite><blockquote>Just a reminder, from the <a rel="nofollow" href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?topic_id=170" target="_blank">Test Server FAQ</a>:<hr /> Should we assume all the changes that show up on the Test server will eventually make their way to the other servers?No. Do not think of the Test server as a preview; it is a testing environment. While many changes and additions will indeed move to the live servers at some point, not all of them will. Becoming either angry or overjoyed because something changes on the Test server would be premature. In order for the Test server to fulfil its intended purpose, it must be a place where the development team has the freedom to try new ideas and theories that may not be intended for the other servers. <hr />Disclaimer: I only moderate the boards, I have nothing to do with Gameplay changes.</blockquote>Test is also a place where we can see what new ideas and theories the development team has. The forum is a place where we can discuss them.But like I said before, how about maybe communicating ideas and theories with us and we could all discuss them without the panic.As for this idea or theory: it needs more thinking about than testing.</blockquote>lol, beat me to the response. <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />I agree that people shouldn't go overboard, but this is also where we should be giving feedback on these changes so that the dev team can see the community response.I also have to agree that the responses may have been a little calmer if we had been notified about this change in the update notes instead of a player discovering and posting this radical of a change. Makes me wonder if they even wanted community response on this one. Can't really blame them if they already have decided to put it in, but didn't want to deal with the fall-out until it went live.

Kenazeer

08-30-2007, 02:42 PM

Now this is a really off the wall comparison, but should an adventurer be able go out, and through the normal course of adventuring, level their tradeskiller? That wouldn't make a whole lot of sense to me. Levelling in a sphere should require some degree of effort, and not simply be a consequence of going on about doing what you would otherwise be doing. If this change goes through, it means people will have to work towards a reward, not simply have it supplied to them by virture of doing nothing otherwise special.Edited to add: In regards to low level players needing to do writs.

LordDarthKhan

08-30-2007, 02:45 PM

<cite>Jalathan@Lucan DLere wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Kaif@Befallen wrote:</cite><blockquote>Its a welcome change to make goals in this game a tiny bit harder to obtain. </blockquote>but that is jsut it Kaif, it doesn't, it just shuts out one segment of the population from being able to contribute. Like I said before, anyone who thinks this is going to slow down the lvl 60 guilds who either raid or have a number of raiders in their ranks, needs to share whatever it is they are smoking. Those little statues are only a trivial part of the status that will be generated in the first week of the expansion. It will take 13 of the t8 statues to even make up one 3 hour HoS raid for 1 person, or 310 of them for an entire raid, which would be about 15 stacks, give or take a few. That is for but a single t7 raid and that isnt' the only raid that gives status. Yah, it might cause a small spike, but after that spike the amount they contribute will be but an annoyance.</blockquote>What's even more funny is this completely baseless statement is made by someone who play a 70 necormancer in a lvl 60 guild. Someone who plays one of the most unbalanced classes in the game, and at the time you started it judging from the date of creation of your toon (Dic 2004), has really no weight whatsoever. You don't play to have hard contents, you just hide under that flag to enforce your point of view over others. Now why don't you go back in your little corner and camp whichever mob you are camping this days, because let's face it, all your other toons are way too complicated for you heh

Hellswrath

08-30-2007, 02:45 PM

<cite>PublicVoid wrote:</cite><blockquote>No trade won't do anything to stop the thousands sitting on mules and alts right now. Invite alt , turn in, kick alt. Same goes if you restrict them to a level. You could just make anything that has dropped and will drop between now and ROK unable to help advance a guild past 60. Then find a new alternative for lower players in a guild to help out beside writs. </blockquote>I agree that no-trade will not solve the issue for this expansion. However, the fall-out from this will last past this expansion. If no-trade were implemented, then after the initial boost for those guilds saving loot this would restrict status from these items to only those people who had actually earned it. Then all the following expansions would follow in the footsteps of the status being turned in only by those who had earned it. Not to mention the bonus of killing off the plat farmers income from these items.Although, if an alternative were implemented for lower level players before this change were implemented, then I could see the change going through as posted.I still want to see it become no-trade regardless of the outcome of this change, however.

Freliant

08-30-2007, 02:47 PM

I find it interesting that my post was ignored... guess it didn't benefit those level 60 guilds to adopt it. Here is my suggestion again:All status loot should automatically apply and disappear from inventory and all future status loot becomes like the current language items: they automatically give you and your guild the status that they are worth upon looting.If you are truly interested in "looking out for the low level" then this should be what you vote for. If you are just complaining because you want your guild to be able to buy their way to max level, well tough.

CHIMPNOODLE.

08-30-2007, 02:48 PM

Not really fond of that as a change.....but I'll live. Kinda do feel it takes a little away from the guild lowbies feelings of contribution. That's too bad. <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

SantiagoDraco

08-30-2007, 02:51 PM

<cite>Aestenon wrote:</cite><blockquote>Just a reminder, from the <a rel="nofollow" href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?topic_id=170" target="_blank">Test Server FAQ</a>:<hr /> Should we assume all the changes that show up on the Test server will eventually make their way to the other servers?No. Do not think of the Test server as a preview; it is a testing environment. While many changes and additions will indeed move to the live servers at some point, not all of them will. Becoming either angry or overjoyed because something changes on the Test server would be premature. In order for the Test server to fulfil its intended purpose, it must be a place where the development team has the freedom to try new ideas and theories that may not be intended for the other servers. <hr />Disclaimer: I only moderate the boards, I have nothing to do with Gameplay changes.</blockquote>Sorry, but this is NOT helpful. If you are trying to imply that this change is not going to make it into release then please do so directly. Otherwise it's just an attempt to imply something without any facts that the implication are true.

Hellswrath

08-30-2007, 02:51 PM

<cite>Kenazeer wrote:</cite><blockquote>Now this is a really off the wall comparison, but should an adventurer be able go out, and through the normal course of adventuring, level their tradeskiller? That wouldn't make a whole lot of sense to me. Levelling in a sphere should require some degree of effort, and not simply be a consequence of going on about doing what you would otherwise be doing. If this change goes through, it means people will have to work towards a reward, not simply have it supplied to them by virture of doing nothing otherwise special.Edited to add: In regards to low level players needing to do writs.</blockquote>lol, the comparison may have been out there, but at least it brought some mirth to the thread. Where did that come from? lolAnyway, I can agree with this point with regards to the working towards a goal. However, this wouldn't be true for the high level players. So you are forcing a group of players (low level toons) to be more focused in working towards guild level by restricting their already limited options, while you allow high level players to still earn guiild status (who already have the most options) to earn guild status as a "consequence of going on about doing what you would otherwise be doing"?I think another answer needs to be found.

Kenazeer

08-30-2007, 02:56 PM

<cite>Hellswrath@Blackburrow wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Kenazeer wrote:</cite><blockquote>Now this is a really off the wall comparison, but should an adventurer be able go out, and through the normal course of adventuring, level their tradeskiller? That wouldn't make a whole lot of sense to me. Levelling in a sphere should require some degree of effort, and not simply be a consequence of going on about doing what you would otherwise be doing. If this change goes through, it means people will have to work towards a reward, not simply have it supplied to them by virture of doing nothing otherwise special.Edited to add: In regards to low level players needing to do writs.</blockquote>lol, the comparison may have been out there, but at least it brought some mirth to the thread. Where did that come from? lolAnyway, I can agree with this point with regards to the working towards a goal. However, this wouldn't be true for the high level players. So you are forcing a group of players (low level toons) to be more focused in working towards guild level by restricting their already limited options, while you allow high level players to still earn guiild status (who already have the most options) to earn guild status as a "consequence of going on about doing what you would otherwise be doing"?I think another answer needs to be found.</blockquote>I agree that this is not a completely adequate solution. I would go so far as to eliminate the guild status portion of all status items.Back when this was originally implemented the only way to get personal status was to be in a guild. Now that the two are divorced, there is no real reason that these must give guild status.

Gareorn

08-30-2007, 02:57 PM

<cite>PublicVoid wrote:</cite><blockquote>No trade won't do anything to stop the thousands sitting on mules and alts right now. Invite alt , turn in, kick alt.</blockquote>Yes, but implementing "No-trade" two years ago would have made the difference. The devs did not have the foresight to see this, even though it already happened the two times they raised the guild level. Now that panic has set in with a guild level increase around the corner, and not wanting to see it happen a third time, they have chosen the path of extremis.Implement "no-trade" now and bite the bullet for not doing it earlier. Then, when the next expansion comes out, we'll all be good.

Runestone

08-30-2007, 02:57 PM

<cite></cite><blockquote>All status loot should automatically apply and disappear from inventory and all future status loot becomes like the current language items: they automatically give you and your guild the status that they are worth upon looting.</blockquote>I love this idea.

Creatu

08-30-2007, 02:59 PM

I think it´s good that guilds just can´t buy their lvls. I read a few pages and maybe someone already mention it but here´s a few things why making them NO-TRADE would be better: NO-TRADE will make it harder for guilds to buy their lvlsNO-TRADE will not affect the people who already spend plats or whatever on tons of items, like the current change doNO-TRADE will make it harder for those low lvl PvP twinks to get their Nightmares/Mistrunners

Hellswrath

08-30-2007, 03:03 PM

<cite>Kenazeer wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>I agree that this is not a completely adequate solution. I would go so far as to eliminate the guild status portion of all status items.</blockquote>Hmmm, I'm not entirely against this either. At least that would put both low and high level players on equal footing on this issue. But then there is still a limitation on the low level players for ways to contribute.I also think Freliant's idea of the loot automatically giving status and disappearing has some merit, though I do not approve of much else he has said in this thread. A little too inflammatory for a constructive discussion.

Hellswrath

08-30-2007, 03:05 PM

<cite>Gareorn wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>PublicVoid wrote:</cite><blockquote>No trade won't do anything to stop the thousands sitting on mules and alts right now. Invite alt , turn in, kick alt.</blockquote>Yes, but implementing "No-trade" two years ago would have made the difference. The devs did not have the foresight to see this, even though it already happened the two times they raised the guild level. Now that panic has set in with a guild level increase around the corner, and not wanting to see it happen a third time, they have chosen the path of extremis.Implement "no-trade" now and bite the bullet for not doing it earlier. Then, when the next expansion comes out, we'll all be good.</blockquote>Exactly.

Rast

08-30-2007, 03:07 PM

<cite>Jesdyr@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Jalathan@Lucan DLere wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>It will take 13 of the t8 statues to even make up one 3 hour HoS raid for 1 person, or 310 of them for an entire raid, which would be about 15 stacks, give or take a few. That is for but a single t7 raid and that isnt' the only raid that gives status. Yah, it might cause a small spike, but after that spike the amount they contribute will be but an annoyance.</blockquote>You dont understand that there are people with mules full of these. We are not talking a few stacks .. we are talking low level mules with 32slot boxes full of them. I should note I do not like this change.</blockquote>heh... I often wonder how I even got in accounting... Since I obviously can't add. I was applying the full impact of the personal status (ie 850 per t8 relic) as guild status... So, recalculating a single person in HoS where 11-12k is done on zone clear easily. You are looking at needed 129.4 of these relics on the conservative side of the calculation (ie 11k with each item worth 85gs) for each person on the raid. That is 6+ full stacks per person, or for the entire raid you'd need 3,105 of them, which is what? 155 stacks. OF THE T8s, just to match 1 (count them ONE) raid into HoS. You come down to the t7 ones (which are worth 60gs) and then you are talking about 4,400 of them, or 220 stacks of t7 relics.Now, tell me this will be a significant portion of anyone's guild leveling? This will not impact the lvl 60 raiding guilds nearly as much as it will the lvl 45 casual guilds that have 8-10 people in them who may or may not raid. This will impact guilds (such as the one I am in) where status affects your position in the guild (to some degree).

Sapphirius

08-30-2007, 03:13 PM

<cite>Freliant wrote:</cite><blockquote>I find it interesting that my post was ignored... guess it didn't benefit those level 60 guilds to adopt it. Here is my suggestion again:All status loot should automatically apply and disappear from inventory and all future status loot becomes like the current language items: they automatically give you and your guild the status that they are worth upon looting.If you are truly interested in "looking out for the low level" then this should be what you vote for. If you are just complaining because you want your guild to be able to buy their way to max level, well tough.</blockquote>Your post was not noted in light of your ignorant claim that farmers do not farm in T7 zones... Of which, you still haven't answered my question."Are you saying that Barren Sky is NOT a T7 zone?"As a side note, I like this idea, and would definitely support it, but it still does not solve the problem some posters have complained about of people farming grey mobs to acquire status loot. The point being that there is no one perfect answer to this "problem." I stress the word problem because some people don't really view it as a problem. It would also require a huge amount of coding to be done. I don't even want to think about how long it took devs to make the changes to language items.Often, the best solution to go with is the easiest solution. So far, the easiest solution mentioned is to make status items "no-trade." Yes, this would not help much with the intial push into ROK because a lot of people already have them stored up. SOE and those whining about guild levels being devalued would simply have to bite the bullet for not doing this earlier. Yes, it still won't solve the problem of people farming grey mobs for status loot either, but to be honest, people will find a way to bend the rules to their benefit no matter what you do.All that this current system on Test will do is exascerbate an already existing "problem."

Balic

08-30-2007, 03:13 PM

I love this change! I know my fellow guild members and I have been hoarding these items in banks for months in anticipation. What do we actually lose? Nothing. So we have to do more writs, raids, etc. Okay, why not. Are we going to stop recruiting, no. Since they got rid of the patron system and the other changes that brought the number of unique accounts into the status calculation it has no impact either way. They could have skinned the cat the other way and just added that much more XP needed to get to the next level and that truly would have impacted the smaller guilds.Plus, it frees up a TON of bank and house space!!!!

Kenazeer

08-30-2007, 03:13 PM

<cite>Jalathan@Lucan DLere wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Jesdyr@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Jalathan@Lucan DLere wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>It will take 13 of the t8 statues to even make up one 3 hour HoS raid for 1 person, or 310 of them for an entire raid, which would be about 15 stacks, give or take a few. That is for but a single t7 raid and that isnt' the only raid that gives status. Yah, it might cause a small spike, but after that spike the amount they contribute will be but an annoyance.</blockquote>You dont understand that there are people with mules full of these. We are not talking a few stacks .. we are talking low level mules with 32slot boxes full of them. I should note I do not like this change.</blockquote>heh... I often wonder how I even got in accounting... Since I obviously can't add. I was applying the full impact of the personal status (ie 850 per t8 relic) as guild status... So, recalculating a single person in HoS where 11-12k is done on zone clear easily. You are looking at needed 129.4 of these relics on the conservative side of the calculation (ie 11k with each item worth 85gs) for each person on the raid. That is 6+ full stacks per person, or for the entire raid you'd need 3,105 of them, which is what? 155 stacks. OF THE T8s, just to match 1 (count them ONE) raid into HoS. You come down to the t7 ones (which are worth 60gs) and then you are talking about 4,400 of them, or 220 stacks of t7 relics.Now, tell me this will be a significant portion of anyone's guild leveling? This will not impact the lvl 60 raiding guilds nearly as much as it will the lvl 45 casual guilds that have 8-10 people in them who may or may not raid. This will impact guilds (such as the one I am in) where status affects your position in the guild (to some degree).</blockquote>Weren't you doing the same thing with status provided by killing the mob?

mellowknees72

08-30-2007, 03:16 PM

<cite>KERSTYNN wrote:</cite><blockquote>Coming from a small, family oriented, non-raiding, type guild that has just reached 50, I would like you to know that this kind of change is going to completely keep us from being able to progress. Yes, we do writs and hq's but a large portion of our members are of lower level so collecting, either via looting or buying status loot from the broker has been a large part of how we have leveled our guild. Although our guild would love to eventually raid we realize that due to our guild size as well as our low sever population that it is just not gonna happen. I personally see no abuse of or exploitation in the way guilds can purchase, loot and hoard status items to get a leg up on leveling their guild. In fact I think its rather ingenius. As stated, it utilizes the game mechanics that were put in place by the devs. I sincerely hope this "change" is a mistake or that it gets seriously reconsidered before being introduced to live servers. Thanks!~</blockquote>/agreeThe guild I co-lead is VERY small, and we have characters across all levels. This change wouldn't necessarily cripple us, but it will slow down our already extremely slow guild-levelling.I wouldn't mind so much if the giving of guild status was dependent upon the level of the character turning in the items - i.e. a level 1-15 character would get status for Tier 1 items, but a 16-25 would not - but it should NOT depend upon the level of the guild. All characters should be able to contribute to guild experience. This change would make most lower level guild loot absolutely worthless...and that would do a great dis-service to the casual gamers out there like myself.

Rast

08-30-2007, 03:20 PM

<cite>Kenazeer wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Jalathan@Lucan DLere wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Jesdyr@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Jalathan@Lucan DLere wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>It will take 13 of the t8 statues to even make up one 3 hour HoS raid for 1 person, or 310 of them for an entire raid, which would be about 15 stacks, give or take a few. That is for but a single t7 raid and that isnt' the only raid that gives status. Yah, it might cause a small spike, but after that spike the amount they contribute will be but an annoyance.</blockquote>You dont understand that there are people with mules full of these. We are not talking a few stacks .. we are talking low level mules with 32slot boxes full of them. I should note I do not like this change.</blockquote>heh... I often wonder how I even got in accounting... Since I obviously can't add. I was applying the full impact of the personal status (ie 850 per t8 relic) as guild status... So, recalculating a single person in HoS where 11-12k is done on zone clear easily. You are looking at needed 129.4 of these relics on the conservative side of the calculation (ie 11k with each item worth 85gs) for each person on the raid. That is 6+ full stacks per person, or for the entire raid you'd need 3,105 of them, which is what? 155 stacks. OF THE T8s, just to match 1 (count them ONE) raid into HoS. You come down to the t7 ones (which are worth 60gs) and then you are talking about 4,400 of them, or 220 stacks of t7 relics.Now, tell me this will be a significant portion of anyone's guild leveling? This will not impact the lvl 60 raiding guilds nearly as much as it will the lvl 45 casual guilds that have 8-10 people in them who may or may not raid. This will impact guilds (such as the one I am in) where status affects your position in the guild (to some degree).</blockquote>Weren't you doing the same thing with status provided by killing the mob?</blockquote>nope, I pull in about 11k (without vene) guild status on a HoS run. I've never done an exact count though, but I know it is in that general area as I've commented on it in guild (in surprise as I didn't realize it was that much)

Kenazeer

08-30-2007, 03:23 PM

<cite>Jalathan@Lucan DLere wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Kenazeer wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Jalathan@Lucan DLere wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Jesdyr@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Jalathan@Lucan DLere wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>It will take 13 of the t8 statues to even make up one 3 hour HoS raid for 1 person, or 310 of them for an entire raid, which would be about 15 stacks, give or take a few. That is for but a single t7 raid and that isnt' the only raid that gives status. Yah, it might cause a small spike, but after that spike the amount they contribute will be but an annoyance.</blockquote>You dont understand that there are people with mules full of these. We are not talking a few stacks .. we are talking low level mules with 32slot boxes full of them. I should note I do not like this change.</blockquote>heh... I often wonder how I even got in accounting... Since I obviously can't add. I was applying the full impact of the personal status (ie 850 per t8 relic) as guild status... So, recalculating a single person in HoS where 11-12k is done on zone clear easily. You are looking at needed 129.4 of these relics on the conservative side of the calculation (ie 11k with each item worth 85gs) for each person on the raid. That is 6+ full stacks per person, or for the entire raid you'd need 3,105 of them, which is what? 155 stacks. OF THE T8s, just to match 1 (count them ONE) raid into HoS. You come down to the t7 ones (which are worth 60gs) and then you are talking about 4,400 of them, or 220 stacks of t7 relics.Now, tell me this will be a significant portion of anyone's guild leveling? This will not impact the lvl 60 raiding guilds nearly as much as it will the lvl 45 casual guilds that have 8-10 people in them who may or may not raid. This will impact guilds (such as the one I am in) where status affects your position in the guild (to some degree).</blockquote>Weren't you doing the same thing with status provided by killing the mob?</blockquote>nope, I pull in about 11k (without vene) guild status on a HoS run. I've never done an exact count though, but I know it is in that general area as I've commented on it in guild (in surprise as I didn't realize it was that much)</blockquote>Edit: Nevermind. I see you specified Guild. I just never noticed it was that much when I was raiding. I will take you at your word.

Crolack

08-30-2007, 03:23 PM

I think the solution is not to base it on Guild Level, but player level. Sure, mules would still get away with turning in low level items, but would a guild really have someone and all their alt mules in a guild? Probably. But then people would have to have a mule in each tier.Of course then if the guild really worked together, they would have several people have alts in different tiers and everyone donates the status items to the guild vaults and those tier'd mules do the turning into help the guild.Or maybe a diminishing return system. i.e. I've already gotten 20,000 parafin seal documents from you, I'm not going to give you as much for more.Sorry, I'm thinking out loud.

Dasein

08-30-2007, 03:25 PM

<cite>Kenazeer wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Jalathan@Lucan DLere wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Kenazeer wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Jalathan@Lucan DLere wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Jesdyr@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Jalathan@Lucan DLere wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>It will take 13 of the t8 statues to even make up one 3 hour HoS raid for 1 person, or 310 of them for an entire raid, which would be about 15 stacks, give or take a few. That is for but a single t7 raid and that isnt' the only raid that gives status. Yah, it might cause a small spike, but after that spike the amount they contribute will be but an annoyance.</blockquote>You dont understand that there are people with mules full of these. We are not talking a few stacks .. we are talking low level mules with 32slot boxes full of them. I should note I do not like this change.</blockquote>heh... I often wonder how I even got in accounting... Since I obviously can't add. I was applying the full impact of the personal status (ie 850 per t8 relic) as guild status... So, recalculating a single person in HoS where 11-12k is done on zone clear easily. You are looking at needed 129.4 of these relics on the conservative side of the calculation (ie 11k with each item worth 85gs) for each person on the raid. That is 6+ full stacks per person, or for the entire raid you'd need 3,105 of them, which is what? 155 stacks. OF THE T8s, just to match 1 (count them ONE) raid into HoS. You come down to the t7 ones (which are worth 60gs) and then you are talking about 4,400 of them, or 220 stacks of t7 relics.Now, tell me this will be a significant portion of anyone's guild leveling? This will not impact the lvl 60 raiding guilds nearly as much as it will the lvl 45 casual guilds that have 8-10 people in them who may or may not raid. This will impact guilds (such as the one I am in) where status affects your position in the guild (to some degree).</blockquote>Weren't you doing the same thing with status provided by killing the mob?</blockquote>nope, I pull in about 11k (without vene) guild status on a HoS run. I've never done an exact count though, but I know it is in that general area as I've commented on it in guild (in surprise as I didn't realize it was that much)</blockquote>And the guilds portion of that status is?</blockquote>That would be 11k guild status. Most raid mobs give about 15k personal status, which translates into about 1.5k guild status.

liveja

08-30-2007, 03:26 PM

<cite>Freliant wrote:</cite><blockquote>All status loot should automatically apply and disappear from inventory and all future status loot becomes like the current language items: they automatically give you and your guild the status that they are worth upon looting.</blockquote>That change would please me, & end my objections -- so long as it applies T1 status to level 60 guilds, no problem.I would have commented when you posted earlier, but didn't see it.

Sapphirius

08-30-2007, 03:27 PM

<cite>Crolack wrote:</cite><blockquote>I think the solution is not to base it on Guild Level, but player level. Sure, mules would still get away with turning in low level items, but would a guild really have someone and all their alt mules in a guild? Probably. But then people would have to have a mule in each tier.Of course then if the guild really worked together, they would have several people have alts in different tiers and everyone donates the status items to the guild vaults and those tier'd mules do the turning into help the guild.Or maybe a diminishing return system. i.e. I've already gotten 20,000 parafin seal documents from you, I'm not going to give you as much for more.Sorry, I'm thinking out loud.</blockquote>Crolack, I <3 you. Feel free to think outloud as much as you want.

Lionidas

08-30-2007, 03:27 PM

<cite>Jalathan@Lucan DLere wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Jesdyr@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Jalathan@Lucan DLere wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>It will take 13 of the t8 statues to even make up one 3 hour HoS raid for 1 person, or 310 of them for an entire raid, which would be about 15 stacks, give or take a few. That is for but a single t7 raid and that isnt' the only raid that gives status. Yah, it might cause a small spike, but after that spike the amount they contribute will be but an annoyance.</blockquote>You dont understand that there are people with mules full of these. We are not talking a few stacks .. we are talking low level mules with 32slot boxes full of them. I should note I do not like this change.</blockquote>heh... I often wonder how I even got in accounting... Since I obviously can't add. I was applying the full impact of the personal status (ie 850 per t8 relic) as guild status... So, recalculating a single person in HoS where 11-12k is done on zone clear easily. You are looking at needed 129.4 of these relics on the conservative side of the calculation (ie 11k with each item worth 85gs) for each person on the raid. That is 6+ full stacks per person, or for the entire raid you'd need 3,105 of them, which is what? 155 stacks. OF THE T8s, just to match 1 (count them ONE) raid into HoS. You come down to the t7 ones (which are worth 60gs) and then you are talking about 4,400 of them, or 220 stacks of t7 relics.Now, tell me this will be a significant portion of anyone's guild leveling? This will not impact the lvl 60 raiding guilds nearly as much as it will the lvl 45 casual guilds that have 8-10 people in them who may or may not raid. This will impact guilds (such as the one I am in) where status affects your position in the guild (to some degree).</blockquote>If you really want to compare ways to achieve status for a guild you should take the entirety of ways and show them, not just one example where your side wins.Why not show how much status 24 people doing adventure writs can give in the same alloted time frame?Why not show how much status 24 people doing crafting writs can give in the same alloted time frame?Why not show how much status a run through DT or EH gives in the same amount of time?Also you left out a few important aspects. Consider that you can only do that zone once a week, that the amount of time invested also extends beyond the actual time spent in the zone and that most raid guilds do not even take nor need 24 people to do this zone or better yet that for most guilds in most cases it takes many trips to a zone to be able to clear it.

Rast

08-30-2007, 03:27 PM

<cite>Kenazeer wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Jalathan@Lucan DLere wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Kenazeer wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Jalathan@Lucan DLere wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Jesdyr@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Jalathan@Lucan DLere wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>It will take 13 of the t8 statues to even make up one 3 hour HoS raid for 1 person, or 310 of them for an entire raid, which would be about 15 stacks, give or take a few. That is for but a single t7 raid and that isnt' the only raid that gives status. Yah, it might cause a small spike, but after that spike the amount they contribute will be but an annoyance.</blockquote>You dont understand that there are people with mules full of these. We are not talking a few stacks .. we are talking low level mules with 32slot boxes full of them. I should note I do not like this change.</blockquote>heh... I often wonder how I even got in accounting... Since I obviously can't add. I was applying the full impact of the personal status (ie 850 per t8 relic) as guild status... So, recalculating a single person in HoS where 11-12k is done on zone clear easily. You are looking at needed 129.4 of these relics on the conservative side of the calculation (ie 11k with each item worth 85gs) for each person on the raid. That is 6+ full stacks per person, or for the entire raid you'd need 3,105 of them, which is what? 155 stacks. OF THE T8s, just to match 1 (count them ONE) raid into HoS. You come down to the t7 ones (which are worth 60gs) and then you are talking about 4,400 of them, or 220 stacks of t7 relics.Now, tell me this will be a significant portion of anyone's guild leveling? This will not impact the lvl 60 raiding guilds nearly as much as it will the lvl 45 casual guilds that have 8-10 people in them who may or may not raid. This will impact guilds (such as the one I am in) where status affects your position in the guild (to some degree).</blockquote>Weren't you doing the same thing with status provided by killing the mob?</blockquote>nope, I pull in about 11k (without vene) guild status on a HoS run. I've never done an exact count though, but I know it is in that general area as I've commented on it in guild (in surprise as I didn't realize it was that much)</blockquote>And the guilds portion of that status is?</blockquote>that IS the guild status, I pull in around 110k in personal status. Every named in that zone gives 12500 in personal status and some of the unnamed ones do as well. It may be 10k, it may be 12k, but I'm pretty sure it is around the 11-12k GUILD status I pick up when I'm there.

Krystara

08-30-2007, 03:28 PM

Kenazeer

08-30-2007, 03:29 PM

<cite>Dasein wrote:</cite><blockquote>That would be 11k guild status. Most raid mobs give about 15k personal status, which translates into about 1.5k guild status.</blockquote>Yeah. I realized right after I read what I posted that you DID specify, and edited my post. I just never noticed it being that much. Would explain why my personal status was so high....never could quite figure that out...lol

Rast

08-30-2007, 03:32 PM

<cite>Lionidas wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Jalathan@Lucan DLere wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Jesdyr@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Jalathan@Lucan DLere wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>It will take 13 of the t8 statues to even make up one 3 hour HoS raid for 1 person, or 310 of them for an entire raid, which would be about 15 stacks, give or take a few. That is for but a single t7 raid and that isnt' the only raid that gives status. Yah, it might cause a small spike, but after that spike the amount they contribute will be but an annoyance.</blockquote>You dont understand that there are people with mules full of these. We are not talking a few stacks .. we are talking low level mules with 32slot boxes full of them. I should note I do not like this change.</blockquote>heh... I often wonder how I even got in accounting... Since I obviously can't add. I was applying the full impact of the personal status (ie 850 per t8 relic) as guild status... So, recalculating a single person in HoS where 11-12k is done on zone clear easily. You are looking at needed 129.4 of these relics on the conservative side of the calculation (ie 11k with each item worth 85gs) for each person on the raid. That is 6+ full stacks per person, or for the entire raid you'd need 3,105 of them, which is what? 155 stacks. OF THE T8s, just to match 1 (count them ONE) raid into HoS. You come down to the t7 ones (which are worth 60gs) and then you are talking about 4,400 of them, or 220 stacks of t7 relics.Now, tell me this will be a significant portion of anyone's guild leveling? This will not impact the lvl 60 raiding guilds nearly as much as it will the lvl 45 casual guilds that have 8-10 people in them who may or may not raid. This will impact guilds (such as the one I am in) where status affects your position in the guild (to some degree).</blockquote>If you really want to compare ways to achieve status for a guild you should take the entirety of ways and show them, not just one example where your side wins.Why not show how much status 24 people doing adventure writs can give in the same alloted time frame?Why not show how much status 24 people doing crafting writs can give in the same alloted time frame?Why not show how much status a run through DT or EH gives in the same amount of time?Also you left out a few important aspects. Consider that you can only do that zone once a week, that the amount of time invested also extends beyond the actual time spent in the zone and that most raid guilds do not even take nor need 24 people to do this zone or better yet that for most guilds in most cases it takes many trips to a zone to be able to clear it. </blockquote>I mentioned those in an earlier post <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> You can get around 10k (about 3200 a run or so, based on Qeynos t7 writs in bonemire) guild status a person during a 3 hour period. Crafting writs can bring in alot of status (I can normally do one in about 7 minutes at t7). I don't know how much status you get on a DT run is, I do know you get some from MMIS, but I've not been in EH much, so others will need to fill in there what you get.All I'm saying is, that given the multitudes of ways to get status by large lvl 60 guilds, this change isn't going to hurt them much at all and that the over all impact is going to be felt more on the smaller guilds. It might delay the larger guilds by a day or two of hitting cap, but that will be it.It also hurts the younger toons in a guild as well as guilds that use guild status as a means of promotion. In these guilds, the younger players will find they have to grind away at repeative writs to do much at all there.

Umigo

08-30-2007, 03:40 PM

Adding my vote to this being a bad idea. Making the status items NO TRADE is a good idea for the game, though i have given status items to my alt's to qualify them for guild membership. Question for the dev's since they are the only ones with access to all the data in the database. Will all the status items currently collected by any one guild even amount to one level? Since only dev's know how many status points it will take to advance one level. My gripe is that since our guild turned lvl 60 all status earned through what ever means has gone to the bit bucket. The only way to bank any of that hard work and time expended so far has been to save the status items for the future when they might be redeemed for guild advancement. I do not expect the total of all our status items to amount to a single level. I expect to be grinding and raiding to advance the guild to the next tier. Why make this change now only to grief the level 60 guilds and effect all players in their ability to contribute to their guilds? If I'm wrong and there is some huge amount of items in each guild and the amount of status required for the next level is so low as to cause guilds to reach the new lvl cap instantly, then I'm sorry for the rant.

Sapphirius

08-30-2007, 03:41 PM

<cite>Lionidas wrote:</cite><blockquote>If you really want to compare ways to achieve status for a guild you should take the entirety of ways and show them, not just one example where your side wins.Why not show how much status 24 people doing adventure writs can give in the same alloted time frame?Why not show how much status 24 people doing crafting writs can give in the same alloted time frame?Why not show how much status a run through DT or EH gives in the same amount of time?Also you left out a few important aspects. Consider that you can only do that zone once a week, that the amount of time invested also extends beyond the actual time spent in the zone and that most raid guilds do not even take nor need 24 people to do this zone or better yet that for most guilds in most cases it takes many trips to a zone to be able to clear it. </blockquote>Consider also that this is individual guild status he earned for raiding that zone and not the entire guild in that zone at the same time and that there is more than one raid zone out there that awards guild status for killing mobs. Jalathan and I are both in a family guild. That means we're members of a non-raiding guild. We raid as part of an alliance that we are personally allied with (not guild allied), and about once every other week, we'll actually have a open-guild raid somewhere like Labs or Courts. By "open-guild," we mean that we include as many guild members as we can who are level appropriate and online and fill the rest with PUGs.If I'm earning between 250 and 350 guild status per writ that takes me 30 minutes to an hour to complete each, and he's earning 11K guild status for completing 1 two-hour raid... I'm raking in 1.4K for two hours' work, and he's raking in 11K. In reality, writs and status items are a drop in the bucket for an actual raiding guild. Unfortunately, for a small casual-style guild, such as our own, it's not a drop in the bucket.This change isn't going to impact the big raiding guilds that raid 4 or 5 nights a week. It's going hurt those smaller family-styled giulds. That was Jalathan's point... not to get entangled up in technicalities and mathematics.

Rast

08-30-2007, 03:50 PM

<cite>Sapphirius wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Lionidas wrote:</cite><blockquote>If you really want to compare ways to achieve status for a guild you should take the entirety of ways and show them, not just one example where your side wins.Why not show how much status 24 people doing adventure writs can give in the same alloted time frame?Why not show how much status 24 people doing crafting writs can give in the same alloted time frame?Why not show how much status a run through DT or EH gives in the same amount of time?Also you left out a few important aspects. Consider that you can only do that zone once a week, that the amount of time invested also extends beyond the actual time spent in the zone and that most raid guilds do not even take nor need 24 people to do this zone or better yet that for most guilds in most cases it takes many trips to a zone to be able to clear it. </blockquote>Consider also that this is individual guild status he earned for raiding that zone and not the entire guild in that zone at the same time and that there is more than one raid zone out there that awards guild status for killing mobs. Jalathan and I are both in a family guild. That means we're members of a non-raiding guild. We raid as part of an alliance that we are personally allied with (not guild allied), and about once every other week, we'll actually have a open-guild raid somewhere like Labs or Courts. By "open-guild," we mean that we include as many guild members as we can who are level appropriate and online and fill the rest with PUGs.If I'm earning between 250 and 350 guild status per writ that takes me 30 minutes to an hour to complete each, and he's earning 11K guild status for completing 1 two-hour raid... I'm raking in 1.4K for two hours' work, and he's raking in 11K. In reality, writs and status items are a drop in the bucket for an actual raiding guild. Unfortunately, for a small casual-style guild, such as our own, it's not a drop in the bucket.This change isn't going to impact the big raiding guilds that raid 4 or 5 nights a week. It's going hurt those smaller family-styled giulds. That was Jalathan's point... not to get entangled up in technicalities and mathematics.</blockquote>Thanks Sapphy. Though to correct one point, t7 writs give about 870 or so guild status, so they remain a solid way to get status equalivent to HoS, but even then, that is far more than you can realistically get with the status items and I'm sure that is only going to get worse in the expansion with them worth 85 to 100 gs each while a writ will likely pull in close to 1k gs each.The other point is, writs are going to be hard to do because so many will be doing them after the expansion, these raid zones are instanced, so no competition for the status. That is going to help the raiding guilds even further, so again, this isn't going to punish them but maybe be a slap on the finger tips with a *tsk tsk* don't do that now, mentality.

Sapphirius

08-30-2007, 03:52 PM

Hehehehe. I was just guesing arbitrary numbers, and to be honest, it takes my warden about an hour to complete one writ because she's specced for max healing and group support. It takes a long long time to heal a mob to death. <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Lionidas

08-30-2007, 03:53 PM

I see the problem is that everyone is using the wrong comparisons when talking of raising the Guild's Level.In order to raise your Crafting Level you need to do recipes or writs of the according level. Doing one that is trivial to you does not yield any benefits. There is no way to mentor your Crafting Level down to make those said courses green again.In order to raise your Adventure Level you need to quest, kill or turn in collections of the according level. Doing one that is trivial to you does not yield any benefits. However you can mentor your Adventure Level down to make those said courses green again.In order to raise your Guild Level you SHOULD need to do writs, turn in items or kill NPCs that are of the according level. Doing one that is trivial SHOULD not yield any benefits. There is no way to mentor your Guild Level down to make those said courses green again.Also think about this. What if SoE decided to put items in the game that once looted you can turn in for exp right now? So people could simply walk up to an NPC, hand in a few stacks of items and DING to lvl 80? The same could be applied to crafting. I suppose everyone that wants status items to remain the same wouldn't be apposed to the idea. Unless of course they will say that leveling a toon and leveling a guild are two different things. And if that is the case they should reread the top part of my post.If people actually had to work for what they achieve there would be a much greater sense of accomplishment when they do reach their goal.

Deggials

08-30-2007, 03:56 PM

Read thru a little, some people think it wouldn't be a big deal and some want them to be no-trade here is who that would hurt, Classes that can't solo or do writs alone say like healers (are we just all of a sudden suppossed to get groups together for non herioc killing?)Low level crafters (high output crafters) who say need to upgrade house ( are they all of sudden suppossed to pick up adventuring now, if adventurers had to have high crafting im sure they would be mad as well, not all crafts can do ts rush writs very well i.e outfitters and some schloars who fight durability a lot)I dont know(didnt read everything) but if it is only the first tier of status items then might be ok but if it is all of them up to highest ones then what happens when a guild hits 60 guess u cant use the status items anymore, that would really hurt the lower toons, low level crafters and toons that dont have decent dps to do writs solo (lower levels). If this goes thru as well u better to be sure to raise the amount of status given per writ or do a complete reduction in status cost for everything from horses, houses, city merchant stuff because for the low-level crafters, and the classes that cant do dps are going to have a real hard time upgrading houses or buying horses especially if u make the status items no-trade and guild level dependant.

Rast

08-30-2007, 04:01 PM

<cite>Lionidas wrote:</cite><blockquote>I see the problem is that everyone is using the wrong comparisons when talking of raising the Guild's Level.In order to raise your Crafting Level you need to do recipes or writs of the according level. Doing one that is trivial to you does not yield any benefits. There is no way to mentor your Crafting Level down to make those said courses green again.In order to raise your Adventure Level you need to quest, kill or turn in collections of the according level. Doing one that is trivial to you does not yield any benefits. However you can mentor your Adventure Level down to make those said courses green again.In order to raise your Guild Level you SHOULD need to do writs, turn in items or kill NPCs that are of the according level. Doing one that is trivial SHOULD not yield any benefits. There is no way to mentor your Guild Level down to make those said courses green again.Also think about this. What if SoE decided to put items in the game that once looted you can turn in for exp right now? So people could simply walk up to an NPC, hand in a few stacks of items and DING to lvl 80? The same could be applied to crafting. I suppose everyone that wants status items to remain the same wouldn't be apposed to the idea. Unless of course they will say that leveling a toon and leveling a guild are two different things. And if that is the case they should reread the top part of my post.If people actually had to work for what they achieve there would be a much greater sense of accomplishment when they do reach their goal.</blockquote>they already exist, they are called collection items.The problem with what you suggest (while I like the idealogy of it, don't get me wrong) is that it shuts certain parts fo the game out. Why should you penalize a brand new player to the game because he joins a lvl 60 guild when he's not added any of HIS status to the impressive status of the existing guild. Even his small acts would gain additional favor with the authorities in question, thus the more favor a guild holds, the better it's status.I think far too many forget that you could lose status at one point, that it was meant to be a reference of your standing in the city. How you were viewed as a whole, not as an individual. So, the improvement of a guild should be available through all means regardless of the level of a guild to all people at all levels of the game.Personally, I think people are making too much ado about the impact of these statues, I've already shown that they will make for a rather trivial impact on the over all advancement of a guild compared to other methods of advancement (raids and writs).In short, this is an unneeded change for an unneeded reason that is simply unneeded as it won't improve ANYONEs game.

Sapphirius

08-30-2007, 04:01 PM

<cite>Lionidas wrote:</cite><blockquote>In order to raise your Guild Level you SHOULD need to do writs, turn in items or kill NPCs that are of the according level. Doing one that is trivial SHOULD not yield any benefits. There is no way to mentor your Guild Level down to make those said courses green again.<snip>If people actually had to work for what they achieve there would be a much greater sense of accomplishment when they do reach their goal.</blockquote>What makes you think my level 34 warlock in her level 54 guild isn't working just as hard as her level 70-ranger guild leader? Should she then be penalized for being a lower level than her guild? Her guild leader will be able to turn in the status items he finds for guild status to help the guild, but she will not be able to at all. Instead, she will have to endlessly grind mind-numbing writs in order to contribute? How is that filling me with a greater sense of acomplishment? Instead of logging on and enjoying my game, in order to contribute to my guild, when I get home from work, I'll have to log on and... eh... work. All it'll do is make me want to delete my character and walk away from the game.I don't know about you, but I play to enjoy my game. I find nothing enjoyable about competing with 50 other people in a zone to kill the same mob over and over and over and over and over...

Rast

08-30-2007, 04:02 PM

<cite>Deggials wrote:</cite><blockquote>Read thru a little, some people think it wouldn't be a big deal and some want them to be no-trade here is who that would hurt, Classes that can't solo or do writs alone say like healers (are we just all of a sudden suppossed to get groups together for non herioc killing?)Low level crafters (high output crafters) who say need to upgrade house ( are they all of sudden suppossed to pick up adventuring now, if adventurers had to have high crafting im sure they would be mad as well, not all crafts can do ts rush writs very well i.e outfitters and some schloars who fight durability a lot)I dont know(didnt read everything) but if it is only the first tier of status items then might be ok but if it is all of them up to highest ones then what happens when a guild hits 60 guess u cant use the status items anymore, that would really hurt the lower toons, low level crafters and toons that dont have decent dps to do writs solo (lower levels). If this goes thru as well u better to be sure to raise the amount of status given per writ or do a complete reduction in status cost for everything from horses, houses, city merchant stuff because for the low-level crafters, and the classes that cant do dps are going to have a real hard time upgrading houses or buying horses especially if u make the status items no-trade and guild level dependant.</blockquote>this wont impact personal status. All items can be used by all people to get personal status. It is only guild status it is impacting.

kreepr

08-30-2007, 04:05 PM

<cite>Lionidas wrote:</cite><blockquote>I see the problem is that everyone is using the wrong comparisons when talking of raising the Guild's Level.In order to raise your Crafting Level you need to do recipes or writs of the according level. Doing one that is trivial to you does not yield any benefits. There is no way to mentor your Crafting Level down to make those said courses green again.In order to raise your Adventure Level you need to quest, kill or turn in collections of the according level. Doing one that is trivial to you does not yield any benefits. However you can mentor your Adventure Level down to make those said courses green again.In order to raise your Guild Level you SHOULD need to do writs, turn in items or kill NPCs that are of the according level. Doing one that is trivial SHOULD not yield any benefits. There is no way to mentor your Guild Level down to make those said courses green again.Also think about this. What if SoE decided to put items in the game that once looted you can turn in for exp right now? So people could simply walk up to an NPC, hand in a few stacks of items and DING to lvl 80? The same could be applied to crafting. I suppose everyone that wants status items to remain the same wouldn't be apposed to the idea. Unless of course they will say that leveling a toon and leveling a guild are two different things. And if that is the case they should reread the top part of my post.If people actually had to work for what they achieve there would be a much greater sense of accomplishment when they do reach their goal.</blockquote>Your missing the point, it is hindering lower level players. My dirge is 22 guild is 52 so I cant do writs, status items or anything to help level the guild??? Cause I can not do level 52 writs and I cant get that Tier status items. No this is not right. Leveling the 2 are different. I work at killing alot of mobs in game but that doesnt count for anything right? That's not really work. I just walked up and the mob feel over dead and gave me a status item, yeah that always happens to me. /rollseyes

Gareorn

08-30-2007, 04:06 PM

<cite>Lionidas wrote:</cite><blockquote>Also think about this. What if SoE decided to put items in the game that once looted you can turn in for exp right now? So people could simply walk up to an NPC, hand in a few stacks of items and DING to lvl 80? </blockquote>Yes, because we know that no one has ever turned in a bunch of collection quests, with items purchased off the broker, to ding the next level. Or, passed a bunch of T6 and T7 collection items to their lvl 20 alt so they ding 24, thereby completely skipping 4 adventure levels.I wonder what would happen "IF" SOE decided to do this.<img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" />

Lionidas

08-30-2007, 04:08 PM

<cite>Sapphirius wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Lionidas wrote:</cite><blockquote>If you really want to compare ways to achieve status for a guild you should take the entirety of ways and show them, not just one example where your side wins.Why not show how much status 24 people doing adventure writs can give in the same alloted time frame?Why not show how much status 24 people doing crafting writs can give in the same alloted time frame?Why not show how much status a run through DT or EH gives in the same amount of time?Also you left out a few important aspects. Consider that you can only do that zone once a week, that the amount of time invested also extends beyond the actual time spent in the zone and that most raid guilds do not even take nor need 24 people to do this zone or better yet that for most guilds in most cases it takes many trips to a zone to be able to clear it. </blockquote>Consider also that this is individual guild status he earned for raiding that zone and not the entire guild in that zone at the same time and that there is more than one raid zone out there that awards guild status for killing mobs. Jalathan and I are both in a family guild. That means we're members of a non-raiding guild. We raid as part of an alliance that we are personally allied with (not guild allied), and about once every other week, we'll actually have a open-guild raid somewhere like Labs or Courts. By "open-guild," we mean that we include as many guild members as we can who are level appropriate and online and fill the rest with PUGs.If I'm earning between 250 and 350 guild status per writ that takes me 30 minutes to an hour to complete each, and he's earning 11K guild status for completing 1 two-hour raid... I'm raking in 1.4K for two hours' work, and he's raking in 11K. In reality, writs and status items are a drop in the bucket for an actual raiding guild. Unfortunately, for a small casual-style guild, such as our own, it's not a drop in the bucket.This change isn't going to impact the big raiding guilds that raid 4 or 5 nights a week. It's going hurt those smaller family-styled giulds. That was Jalathan's point... not to get entangled up in technicalities and mathematics.</blockquote>Also consider that he chose the one zone that awards the highest amount of status in the game. Like I said in my prior post, if he was to instead show the amount of status earned from a zone such as DT or EH the numbers would be drastically different. So if you want a realistic comparison you should look at a whole cycle of raiding, take time involved in organizing the raid and you may even want to factor in the costs involved in raiding vs the other styles.

Oakleafe

08-30-2007, 04:11 PM

<cite>Lionidas wrote:</cite><blockquote>I see the problem is that everyone is using the wrong comparisons when talking of raising the Guild's Level.In order to raise your Crafting Level you need to do recipes or writs of the according level. Doing one that is trivial to you does not yield any benefits. There is no way to mentor your Crafting Level down to make those said courses green again.In order to raise your Adventure Level you need to quest, kill or turn in collections of the according level. Doing one that is trivial to you does not yield any benefits. However you can mentor your Adventure Level down to make those said courses green again.In order to raise your Guild Level you SHOULD need to do writs, turn in items or kill NPCs that are of the according level. Doing one that is trivial SHOULD not yield any benefits. There is no way to mentor your Guild Level down to make those said courses green again.Also think about this. What if SoE decided to put items in the game that once looted you can turn in for exp right now? So people could simply walk up to an NPC, hand in a few stacks of items and DING to lvl 80? The same could be applied to crafting. I suppose everyone that wants status items to remain the same wouldn't be apposed to the idea. Unless of course they will say that leveling a toon and leveling a guild are two different things. And if that is the case they should reread the top part of my post.If people actually had to work for what they achieve there would be a much greater sense of accomplishment when they do reach their goal.</blockquote>So a new player joins a level 60 guild post-change. He adventures, does writs and crafts etc. and during all this he gets low level status loot. Which he then sells to the broker? How is this low level player getting a sense of accomplishment if some of the adventuring reward THAT OTHERS CAN use is useless to him/her?If status loot is in the game then all should be allowed to hand it in to contribute their share to their guilds status. That way all players have the opportunity to contribute regardless of their play style.If there is an issue (which personally I do not see) with collecting multi-level status loot and choosing yourself when to hand it in then a fair solution should be sought. Don't make lower level players feel that they contribute less or have to play a different style just because their guild has managed to progress in level."If people actually had to work for what they achieve ...." This change means that people working equally hard will, depending on their guild level, achieve less than others. That is not fair and it is not right.If there is a problem then find a fair and equitable solution.

Rast

08-30-2007, 04:17 PM

I also left out zones like Courts and MMIS that have nice status on them as well. But yes, I picked HoS purposefully becuase it is one I've noted on status previously so I was familiar with the numbers. There are other raid zones that give status, HoS isn't the only one.There are also writs that can be done inbetween raids.And heaven forbid someone actually lock a toon at 64 (from Qeynos) and put together a group of six, including a druid and a evacer and just clear cut TT and wipe out a writ every 10 minutes now eh? I know the guild I was in at those levels put 4 lguild evels on in a week while we leveling our toons. I can see that being used extensively as well. How long do you think it will take a guild to level who can raid EH to gear up alts in the low 60 range and wipe out droag after droag for a week?What I'm saying is, the mechanism isn't broken, it isn't the reason why guilds will level so fast, it is because of reasons far beyond (and well within your ideology) that the levels advance so fast. How much guild status do you really think a lvl 20 player is going to add? Not going to be alot. Not at 200 a writ or 20 a status item, so why hurt them like this?

Sapphirius

08-30-2007, 04:18 PM

<cite>Lionidas wrote:</cite><blockquote>Also consider that he chose the one zone that awards the highest amount of status in the game. Like I said in my prior post, if he was to instead show the amount of status earned from a zone such as DT or EH the numbers would be drastically different. So if you want a realistic comparison you should look at a whole cycle of raiding, take time involved in organizing the raid and you may even want to factor in the costs involved in raiding vs the other styles.</blockquote>About 1.5K status per named raid mob... About 850 status per T7 writ... Hmmmm... This particular aspect of the debate is both pointless and off-topic, so I'm going to end it here as you seem to be more interested in arguing technicalities than in addressing the real problem.The real problem is that the guilds being hurt most by this are the small family-styled guilds. The players being hurt most by this are the lower-level players. How about you focus on this issue and just stop jumping on technicalities?

Lionidas

08-30-2007, 04:21 PM

<cite>Sapphirius wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Lionidas wrote:</cite><blockquote>In order to raise your Guild Level you SHOULD need to do writs, turn in items or kill NPCs that are of the according level. Doing one that is trivial SHOULD not yield any benefits. There is no way to mentor your Guild Level down to make those said courses green again.<snip>If people actually had to work for what they achieve there would be a much greater sense of accomplishment when they do reach their goal.</blockquote>What makes you think my level 34 warlock in her level 54 guild isn't working just as hard as her level 70-ranger guild leader? Should she then be penalized for being a lower level than her guild? Her guild leader will be able to turn in the status items he finds for guild status to help the guild, but she will not be able to at all. Instead, she will have to endlessly grind mind-numbing writs in order to contribute? How is that filling me with a greater sense of acomplishment? Instead of logging on and enjoying my game, in order to contribute to my guild, when I get home from work, I'll have to log on and... eh... work. All it'll do is make me want to delete my character and walk away from the game.I don't know about you, but I play to enjoy my game. I find nothing enjoyable about competing with 50 other people in a zone to kill the same mob over and over and over and over and over...</blockquote>Yup, that sums it up quite nicely. You may have to /gasp work towards something! Shouldn't killing a non-heroic gray mob yield the same amount of exp as killing a yellow ^^^ heroic? Why isn't your level 34 warlock the same level as the level 70 ranger guild leader? Maybe because he did more WORK leveling his toon?Also you wont only have to grind writs to add status. You could always take the items you do earn, sell them and purchase higher level items for turn in.

Lionidas

08-30-2007, 04:28 PM

<cite>Sapphirius wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Lionidas wrote:</cite><blockquote>Also consider that he chose the one zone that awards the highest amount of status in the game. Like I said in my prior post, if he was to instead show the amount of status earned from a zone such as DT or EH the numbers would be drastically different. So if you want a realistic comparison you should look at a whole cycle of raiding, take time involved in organizing the raid and you may even want to factor in the costs involved in raiding vs the other styles.</blockquote>About 1.5K status per named raid mob... About 850 status per T7 writ... Hmmmm... This particular aspect of the debate is both pointless and off-topic, so I'm going to end it here as you seem to be more interested in arguing technicalities than in addressing the real problem.The real problem is that the guilds being hurt most by this are the small family-styled guilds. The players being hurt most by this are the lower-level players. How about you focus on this issue and just stop jumping on technicalities?</blockquote>No the people that are being hurt most by this is the ones that have purchased or saved crates full of these items in order to power level their way to the cap. The real problem is that they are removing this faulty mechanic and the only ones that are truly effected by it are the people that would otherwise be too lazy to work for something they really wanted to achieve.

SantiagoDraco

08-30-2007, 04:30 PM

Why <cite>Creatu wrote:</cite><blockquote>I think it´s good that guilds just can´t buy their lvls. I read a few pages and maybe someone already mention it but here´s a few things why making them NO-TRADE would be better: NO-TRADE will make it harder for guilds to buy their lvlsNO-TRADE will not affect the people who already spend plats or whatever on tons of items, like the current change doNO-TRADE will make it harder for those low lvl PvP twinks to get their Nightmares/Mistrunners</blockquote>Why is it "good" they can't buy levels? It's not like they just snap their fingers and these items magically appear. It takes work. Either by making money to buy them or buy farming the relics directly.This kind of change, and the "make them no trade" crowd just show a further lack of understanding of what kinds of things keep people playing. But go ahead and take those things away and watch subscriptions further dwindle.Of course we know who's in agreement with these kinds of changes, the guilds or players who have fallen behind others because they don't have the time or commitment but don't realize that that is their problem not those that pass them by.

Dasein

08-30-2007, 04:37 PM

<cite>Deggials wrote:</cite><blockquote>Read thru a little, some people think it wouldn't be a big deal and some want them to be no-trade here is who that would hurt, Classes that can't solo or do writs alone say like healers (are we just all of a sudden suppossed to get groups together for non herioc killing?)Low level crafters (high output crafters) who say need to upgrade house ( are they all of sudden suppossed to pick up adventuring now, if adventurers had to have high crafting im sure they would be mad as well, not all crafts can do ts rush writs very well i.e outfitters and some schloars who fight durability a lot)I dont know(didnt read everything) but if it is only the first tier of status items then might be ok but if it is all of them up to highest ones then what happens when a guild hits 60 guess u cant use the status items anymore, that would really hurt the lower toons, low level crafters and toons that dont have decent dps to do writs solo (lower levels). If this goes thru as well u better to be sure to raise the amount of status given per writ or do a complete reduction in status cost for everything from horses, houses, city merchant stuff because for the low-level crafters, and the classes that cant do dps are going to have a real hard time upgrading houses or buying horses especially if u make the status items no-trade and guild level dependant.</blockquote>You are confusing personal status with guild status.

Lionidas

08-30-2007, 04:38 PM

<cite>Jalathan@Lucan DLere wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Lionidas wrote:</cite><blockquote>I see the problem is that everyone is using the wrong comparisons when talking of raising the Guild's Level.In order to raise your Crafting Level you need to do recipes or writs of the according level. Doing one that is trivial to you does not yield any benefits. There is no way to mentor your Crafting Level down to make those said courses green again.In order to raise your Adventure Level you need to quest, kill or turn in collections of the according level. Doing one that is trivial to you does not yield any benefits. However you can mentor your Adventure Level down to make those said courses green again.In order to raise your Guild Level you SHOULD need to do writs, turn in items or kill NPCs that are of the according level. Doing one that is trivial SHOULD not yield any benefits. There is no way to mentor your Guild Level down to make those said courses green again.Also think about this. What if SoE decided to put items in the game that once looted you can turn in for exp right now? So people could simply walk up to an NPC, hand in a few stacks of items and DING to lvl 80? The same could be applied to crafting. I suppose everyone that wants status items to remain the same wouldn't be apposed to the idea. Unless of course they will say that leveling a toon and leveling a guild are two different things. And if that is the case they should reread the top part of my post.If people actually had to work for what they achieve there would be a much greater sense of accomplishment when they do reach their goal.</blockquote>they already exist, they are called collection items.The problem with what you suggest (while I like the idealogy of it, don't get me wrong) is that it shuts certain parts fo the game out. Why should you penalize a brand new player to the game because he joins a lvl 60 guild when he's not added any of HIS status to the impressive status of the existing guild. Even his small acts would gain additional favor with the authorities in question, thus the more favor a guild holds, the better it's status.I think far too many forget that you could lose status at one point, that it was meant to be a reference of your standing in the city. How you were viewed as a whole, not as an individual. So, the improvement of a guild should be available through all means regardless of the level of a guild to all people at all levels of the game.Personally, I think people are making too much ado about the impact of these statues, I've already shown that they will make for a rather trivial impact on the over all advancement of a guild compared to other methods of advancement (raids and writs).In short, this is an unneeded change for an unneeded reason that is simply unneeded as it won't improve ANYONEs game.</blockquote>I know this already exists, and I also recognized that there is a mechanic placed in game for exactly this reason. If you could possibly show me how I can mentor my tradeskill level to do the same I would appreciate it. I've still got a few level 2 items that I never made that I would like to use to get to 80 once the expansion comes out.I understand what you are saying I really do. We both feel that there would need to be a mass quantity of these items turned in at once to have an impact on a guild reaching a higher level. As to this regard, lower level toons should not feel slighted and should actually be happy that no longer can the higher level toons come into a gray zone and slaughter every mob in site in order to gain status for the guild they are trying to power level while taking away mobs that the lower levels can kill to gain experience and loot that is valuable at their level.

Sapphirius

08-30-2007, 04:40 PM

<cite>Lionidas wrote:</cite><blockquote>Yup, that sums it up quite nicely. You may have to /gasp work towards something! Shouldn't killing a non-heroic gray mob yield the same amount of exp as killing a yellow ^^^ heroic? Why isn't your level 34 warlock the same level as the level 70 ranger guild leader? Maybe because he did more WORK leveling his toon?Also you wont only have to grind writs to add status. You could always take the items you do earn, sell them and purchase higher level items for turn in.</blockquote>EDIT: as most of this post was rather harshThank you so much for clearing this up for me and offering your invaluable insight. I would have never realized that the place where I go to relax and escape is a place where I really should have to work and not relax. If you had never told told me, I would never have known that I'm a lazy person.BTW, it may behoove you to know that I have multiple level-capped characters. The warlock in reference is my "escape" alt.

Vonotar

08-30-2007, 04:47 PM

<cite>Flaye@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Freliant wrote:</cite><blockquote>All status loot should automatically apply and disappear from inventory and all future status loot becomes like the current language items: they automatically give you and your guild the status that they are worth upon looting.</blockquote>That change would please me, & end my objections -- so long as it applies T1 status to level 60 guilds, no problem.I would have commented when you posted earlier, but didn't see it.</blockquote>I also agree that this would be a worthwhile alternative.Of course, if they are really worried about the horders. If they apply this before RoK comes out all the horders will get their personal status but the level 60 guilds won't get their immediate jump to level 80....

Vonotar

08-30-2007, 04:53 PM

There is a level 60 guild on Butcherblock... which had something of an errr bust-up and has now re-invented it'self and is recruiting lowbies (eq2flames visitors can guess who.. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" />)With this change not one of those new members can turn in status items for guild status...Meanwhile a level 9 guild can accept members of any level and benefit from all guild status items.It's not about whether these low status items will make a difference on the guild. It's about that members feeling of worth, if they get no recognition *in-guild* for turning in status items (cos their individual guild status doesn't go up) then that makes them feel devalued.Either make status items no-trade, or make them immediately turn in when looted.

Finora

08-30-2007, 04:53 PM

<cite>Freliant wrote:</cite><blockquote>Everyone in a 60 guild starts to store their status items as soon as their guild levels, so don't think you are alone in this. Those of you that said you got all your status items by adventuring, well, kudos to you, the higher tier status items will not affect your progression. YOU CAN STILL TURN THOSE IN and they will give guild status. The ones that do not, are the lower tier ones. Hence, the only ones affected at launch are the level 60 guilds that have hoarded up tons of the stuff which they bought mainly from plat selling toons, as someone else duly noted. Now plat sellers have one less venue to gain their funds... win win situation.Like someone else also noted, you get guild xp much faster by doing city writs and crafting writs than actually getting the drops, so that is a moot point too.</blockquote>Except you are completely forgetting the fact that not everyone in a lvl 60 guild has to be level 60+. There are quite a few level 60 guilds with many 40 and lower characters. If status items are all going to be limited by tier with guild levels, how idiotic that these people won't be able to hand in all the status loot drops that they get to help out the guild.As for it 'keeping guilds from powering to 80', this change is going to have little or no affect on them. The guilds that want to be 80, will be 80 within the week no matter what the changes to the guild status items. ESPECIALLY those that are super keen on being the biggest best first all the time. And of course those are the ones this change is supposedly going to be curbing. Those guilds have far easier ways to level up than status items, they'll power right on through without ever even noticing that the guild status items were changed.The guilds this is going to hurt are those with people across many many levels who have worked hard to get their guilds leveled up. Writs aren't created equal across levels, some tiers they are much harder to get done than other tiers, like wise with HQs and there are only so many HQs out there, and from what I've heard no new ones coming with Kunark.The only thing that is going to hurt the plat sellers selling these items would be to make them no trade (which is something I have wished they'd done since they put them in game). The only thing this changes for the plat sellers is they will concentrate on T7 farming (oh joy, how much harder will it be to do the writs in Barren Sky with them aoe farming for status things in force as well as the other crap they've been farming before.)

Sapphirius

08-30-2007, 05:01 PM

<cite>Vonotar@Butcherblock wrote:</cite><blockquote>It's not about whether these low status items will make a difference on the guild. It's about that members feeling of worth, if they get no recognition *in-guild* for turning in status items (cos their individual guild status doesn't go up) then that makes them feel devalued.</blockquote>Thank you. You've just pointed out exactly what some of us have been trying to say. That 10 GSP from turning in that blackened iron relic may not be much, but it makes those of us with limited playtimes or schedules (either due to RL or in-game obligations) feel better to know that we can still contribute something towards our guild, even if it isn't much.

Lionidas

08-30-2007, 05:09 PM

<cite>Sapphirius wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Lionidas wrote:</cite><blockquote>Yup, that sums it up quite nicely. You may have to /gasp work towards something! Shouldn't killing a non-heroic gray mob yield the same amount of exp as killing a yellow ^^^ heroic? Why isn't your level 34 warlock the same level as the level 70 ranger guild leader? Maybe because he did more WORK leveling his toon?Also you wont only have to grind writs to add status. You could always take the items you do earn, sell them and purchase higher level items for turn in.</blockquote>Sorry, but I think from this post on, I'll just being ignoring you. That has got to be the most ignorant thing said in this entire thread. Suddenly, I'm not a hard worker, regardless of the fact that I have 5 level 70 characters, am a guild officer, am a signature designer, and contribute regularly to both my guilds on all my characters, etc.My 34 warlock is my escape alt. So essentially, when I need escape from guild responsibilities (or risk getting burned out) but still want to contribute at least a little, I'll have to still work... and this after working 8 to 10 hours a day at my regular job and dealing with two rambunctious children as a single parent and working on signature images for people who've requested them and working in my community where I regularly volunteer and helping my guild leaders run the guild where I'm an officer.Thank you so mcuh for clearing this up for me. I would have never realized that the place where I go to relax and escape is a place where I really should have to work and not relax. If you had never told told me, I would never have known that I'm a lazy person. I wouldn't have known any of this without your spectacular insight! Thanks again!</blockquote>And where did I say you were a lazy person? Where did I bring the RL card in? If I am to read what you are posting from the point of view of a lvl 34 warlock that wants to contribute as much as a lvl 70 but does not want to work for it, then from my perspective that lvl 34 warlock wants things handed to them. Quite frankly what you do and how you behave outside of the game is none of my concern because that does not effect me. Your actions in the game that we both spend our time does. You should also think of the ramifications of your ideas and the negative impact that they may incur. Keeping it as it is - Positive1. Lower level toons can turn in status items that they kill in order to help raise the guilds level even if it is a meager sum.Keeping it as it is - Negative1. Higher level players can go into a gray zone and slaughter mobs in mass quantities, taking away the limited resources that lower level players have.2. Higher level guilds with a surplus of money will buy all the status items off of the broker thus depriving the smaller and lower level guilds an opportunity to use these items.Changing it - Positive1. Lower level and smaller guilds will have more of these status items available at each tier to help level their guild up. 2. Since these items are based on tiers the price of these items will drop in most cases and thus it will be easier for a lower level character to purchase the relevant items to their guilds tier to help contribute to level their guild.3. Guilds that actually work hard to raise their guild level will level faster than guilds that either do not work as hard.4. There would be less of a reason for higher level characters to farm trivial zones for these items and thus create a better gaming experience for lower levels that are trying to kill the same mobs.Changing it - Negative1. Lower level toons will not be able to turn these items directly in to a NPC for guild status, they will have to take more time to place the items on the broker or sell them to a merchant in order to purchase items of the appropriate level in comparison to their guild.Remember they are not taking these out of the game at lower levels nor are they making it so if they are trivial to the guild you are a member in that they disappear. You will still receive something of value that you can sell for coin and personal status or just coin.

Rast

08-30-2007, 05:09 PM

<cite>Lionidas wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Sapphirius wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Lionidas wrote:</cite><blockquote>Also consider that he chose the one zone that awards the highest amount of status in the game. Like I said in my prior post, if he was to instead show the amount of status earned from a zone such as DT or EH the numbers would be drastically different. So if you want a realistic comparison you should look at a whole cycle of raiding, take time involved in organizing the raid and you may even want to factor in the costs involved in raiding vs the other styles.</blockquote>About 1.5K status per named raid mob... About 850 status per T7 writ... Hmmmm... This particular aspect of the debate is both pointless and off-topic, so I'm going to end it here as you seem to be more interested in arguing technicalities than in addressing the real problem.The real problem is that the guilds being hurt most by this are the small family-styled guilds. The players being hurt most by this are the lower-level players. How about you focus on this issue and just stop jumping on technicalities?</blockquote>No the people that are being hurt most by this is the ones that have purchased or saved crates full of these items in order to power level their way to the cap. The real problem is that they are removing this faulty mechanic and the only ones that are truly effected by it are the people that would otherwise be too lazy to work for something they really wanted to achieve. </blockquote>how many times do I have to tell you, that this will not overly impact these people that much at all?Even if they have 8 boxes with 32 slots filled with stacks of t7 status items, it would still only be 307,200 guild status. That will be easily compensated for by those very same guild by two runs through HoS. So all you did was put them back 2 weeks, did that improve your game any? Did that bruise your ego so much that you feel everyone should be punished because someone might save 2 weeks of their life to *gasp* PLAY a game?And it isn't like they went *poof* here they are, they WORKED for them, either by getting the gold to buy them or earned them by looting them from the mobs. Should they have been capable of buying them? That is a different argument that has no bearing on the direction they are taking./sighI'm done with debating with you since you obviously don't give a darn about the average player.

Sapphirius

08-30-2007, 05:14 PM

<cite>Jalathan@Lucan DLere wrote:</cite><blockquote>I'm done with debating with you since you obviously don't give a darn about the average player.</blockquote>Oh, that's OK, Jal. I've already made the decision to just completely ignore his posts after he basically stated that a low-level toon is lazy because they didn't "WORK" to become level 70. It's just not worth it trying to explain concepts beyond mechanics and technicalities to some people.

Cythen

08-30-2007, 05:15 PM

<cite>Sapphirius wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Vonotar@Butcherblock wrote:</cite><blockquote>It's not about whether these low status items will make a difference on the guild. It's about that members feeling of worth, if they get no recognition *in-guild* for turning in status items (cos their individual guild status doesn't go up) then that makes them feel devalued.</blockquote>Thank you. You've just pointed out exactly what some of us have been trying to say. That 10 GSP from turning in that blackened iron relic may not be much, but it makes those of us with limited playtimes or schedules (either due to RL or in-game obligations) feel better to know that we can still contribute something towards our guild, even if it isn't much.</blockquote>Seconded. Thirded. Where ever we are on the list... ed.

Cythen

08-30-2007, 05:17 PM

<cite>Sapphirius wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Jalathan@Lucan DLere wrote:</cite><blockquote>I'm done with debating with you since you obviously don't give a darn about the average player.</blockquote>Oh, that's OK, Jal. I've already made the decision to just completely ignore his posts after he basically stated that a low-level toon is lazy because they didn't "WORK" to become level 70. It's just not worth it trying to explain concepts beyond mechanics and technicalities to some people.</blockquote>Please be aware that not everyone has a job, kids, or wife/husband, Sapph. Some do still live in their mother's basements with no job so it's quite convenient to get level 70 in a short period of time. (Or just don't actually care about seeing content, but moreso, of being ub3r).

Kaalenarc

08-30-2007, 05:18 PM

<cite>Lionidas wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Sapphirius wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Lionidas wrote:</cite><blockquote>Yup, that sums it up quite nicely. You may have to /gasp work towards something! Shouldn't killing a non-heroic gray mob yield the same amount of exp as killing a yellow ^^^ heroic? Why isn't your level 34 warlock the same level as the level 70 ranger guild leader? Maybe because he did more WORK leveling his toon?Also you wont only have to grind writs to add status. You could always take the items you do earn, sell them and purchase higher level items for turn in.</blockquote>Sorry, but I think from this post on, I'll just being ignoring you. That has got to be the most ignorant thing said in this entire thread. Suddenly, I'm not a hard worker, regardless of the fact that I have 5 level 70 characters, am a guild officer, am a signature designer, and contribute regularly to both my guilds on all my characters, etc.My 34 warlock is my escape alt. So essentially, when I need escape from guild responsibilities (or risk getting burned out) but still want to contribute at least a little, I'll have to still work... and this after working 8 to 10 hours a day at my regular job and dealing with two rambunctious children as a single parent and working on signature images for people who've requested them and working in my community where I regularly volunteer and helping my guild leaders run the guild where I'm an officer.Thank you so mcuh for clearing this up for me. I would have never realized that the place where I go to relax and escape is a place where I really should have to work and not relax. If you had never told told me, I would never have known that I'm a lazy person. I wouldn't have known any of this without your spectacular insight! Thanks again!</blockquote>And where did I say you were a lazy person? Where did I bring the RL card in? If I am to read what you are posting from the point of view of a lvl 34 warlock that wants to contribute as much as a lvl 70 but does not want to work for it, then from my perspective that lvl 34 warlock wants things handed to them. Quite frankly what you do and how you behave outside of the game is none of my concern because that does not effect me. Your actions in the game that we both spend our time does. You should also think of the ramifications of your ideas and the negative impact that they may incur. Keeping it as it is - Positive1. Lower level toons can turn in status items that they kill in order to help raise the guilds level even if it is a meager sum.Keeping it as it is - Negative1. Higher level players can go into a gray zone and slaughter mobs in mass quantities, taking away the limited resources that lower level players have.2. Higher level guilds with a surplus of money will buy all the status items off of the broker thus depriving the smaller and lower level guilds an opportunity to use these items.1.) Typically this doesnt happen because they are cheap on the broker and there are SO many lowbie zones to go to - chances are there arent any issues with this ,2.) They arent depriving anyone of anything. There isnt a finite supply of status items. They are ALWAYS available in mass quanitites on the broker. Always. Even after expansion launch. Changing it - Positive1. Lower level and smaller guilds will have more of these status items available at each tier to help level their guild up. Not really - again the number of status items isnt fixed. It WILL create a massive surplus of these items, as significantly less ppl can use them now. So what happens? Glut of items - price drops to way below what vendor buys em for - they become valueless vendor loot and there will be less available not more. 2. Since these items are based on tiers the price of these items will drop in most cases and thus it will be easier for a lower level character to purchase the relevant items to their guilds tier to help contribute to level their guild.See above - price will drop below vendor level.3. Guilds that actually work hard to raise their guild level will level faster than guilds that either do not work as hard.Thats overly subjective. Is the guy who raids five nights a week in non status raids to get loot to sell off to buy status items with working more or less hard than the guy who does writs all day? 4. There would be less of a reason for higher level characters to farm trivial zones for these items and thus create a better gaming experience for lower levels that are trying to kill the same mobs.Likely there will be even less reason to mentor to go to those zones as well, resulting in fewer group opportunites too. At lower levels there really isnt a ton of mob competition. When was the last time you zoned into Antonica 2?? Changing it - Negative1. Lower level toons will not be able to turn these items directly in to a NPC for guild status, they will have to take more time to place the items on the broker or sell them to a merchant in order to purchase items of the appropriate level in comparison to their guild.Remember they are not taking these out of the game at lower levels nor are they making it so if they are trivial to the guild you are a member in that they disappear. You will still receive something of value that you can sell for coin and personal status or just coin.Yes but its not equivalent by a long shot. Its badly implemented and Id say poorly communicated except theres been no communication at all. Sorry - you're way off base.</blockquote>

Lionidas

08-30-2007, 05:18 PM

<cite>Jalathan@Lucan DLere wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Lionidas wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Sapphirius wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Lionidas wrote:</cite><blockquote>Also consider that he chose the one zone that awards the highest amount of status in the game. Like I said in my prior post, if he was to instead show the amount of status earned from a zone such as DT or EH the numbers would be drastically different. So if you want a realistic comparison you should look at a whole cycle of raiding, take time involved in organizing the raid and you may even want to factor in the costs involved in raiding vs the other styles.</blockquote>About 1.5K status per named raid mob... About 850 status per T7 writ... Hmmmm... This particular aspect of the debate is both pointless and off-topic, so I'm going to end it here as you seem to be more interested in arguing technicalities than in addressing the real problem.The real problem is that the guilds being hurt most by this are the small family-styled guilds. The players being hurt most by this are the lower-level players. How about you focus on this issue and just stop jumping on technicalities?</blockquote>No the people that are being hurt most by this is the ones that have purchased or saved crates full of these items in order to power level their way to the cap. The real problem is that they are removing this faulty mechanic and the only ones that are truly effected by it are the people that would otherwise be too lazy to work for something they really wanted to achieve. </blockquote>how many times do I have to tell you, that this will not overly impact these people that much at all?Even if they have 8 boxes with 32 slots filled with stacks of t7 status items, it would still only be 307,200 guild status. That will be easily compensated for by those very same guild by two runs through HoS. So all you did was put them back 2 weeks, did that improve your game any? Did that bruise your ego so much that you feel everyone should be punished because someone might save 2 weeks of their life to *gasp* PLAY a game?And it isn't like they went *poof* here they are, they WORKED for them, either by getting the gold to buy them or earned them by looting them from the mobs. Should they have been capable of buying them? That is a different argument that has no bearing on the direction they are taking./sighI'm done with debating with you since you obviously don't give a darn about the average player.</blockquote>I do care about the average player and I know that this last post was placed nearly the same time as the one before hand where I tried to give examples of the benefits that occur with this change to the average player.However I will say that the average player should not reap the same benefits as an above average player. A person that goes above and beyond what the average player does should be rewarded for it. Likewise a player that does less than the average player should be compensated with a smaller amount.

Jesdyr

08-30-2007, 05:22 PM

I think at this point if any dev looked at this thread there would at least be a meeting about this change before it goes live <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> I do not think this is as big of a problem as everyone seems to make it out to be. But the points about how this will have little impact on large/raiding guilds are accurate. If the idea of the change is to counter them, then there is no reason to do this change. If the reason is to limit the market for platfarmers, then just make the items no-trade and be done with it.

Lionidas

08-30-2007, 05:25 PM

<cite>K_Aramae wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Sapphirius wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Jalathan@Lucan DLere wrote:</cite><blockquote>I'm done with debating with you since you obviously don't give a darn about the average player.</blockquote>Oh, that's OK, Jal. I've already made the decision to just completely ignore his posts after he basically stated that a low-level toon is lazy because they didn't "WORK" to become level 70. It's just not worth it trying to explain concepts beyond mechanics and technicalities to some people.</blockquote>Please be aware that not everyone has a job, kids, or wife/husband, Sapph. Some do still live in their mother's basements with no job so it's quite convenient to get level 70 in a short period of time. (Or just don't actually care about seeing content, but moreso, of being ub3r).</blockquote>Wow another that wants to play the RL card. Please be aware that not everyone owns 2 businesses, has a wife, owns 3 houses and works more than double the amount of hours the average person does. Maybe these are the people that take a strong pride in their work ethic and would rather not have things handed to people that work less than them.

Sapphirius

08-30-2007, 05:30 PM

<cite>Jesdyr@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote>But the points about how this will have little impact on large/raiding guilds are accurate. If the idea of the change is to counter them, then there is no reason to do this change. If the reason is to limit the market for platfarmers, then just make the items no-trade and be done with it. </blockquote>Exactly. It will have a minimal impact at best on the guilds that this change was targeted at. It is the average player and the average guild that are going to be hurt most. Actually, saying "average" is a misnomer. It's going to affect lower level players in non-raiding guilds the most. Truthfully, a level 30 player works every bit as hard as a level 70 one in a family guild.To tell that lower level player, "Hey, guess what? You can't turn in status items any more to help the guild, so now you're going to have to work harder than your higher level guildmates." is just a slap in the face.

Allurana

08-30-2007, 05:34 PM

So far the best idea seems to be make then "no-trade" and just bite the bullet that the hoarders (yes, I am one) will be turning in mass quantities this time around. SOE has set a precedent with the adornments when they changed the 400hp and 400power adornments to 100hp and 100power and refunded EVERYONE that had those adornments with a VERY fair market price valuation of them at the time. I would be 100% willing for them to leave this change in as is, if they would proceed with a similar "buy out" of the existing status items in the game. I also liked the "turn in immediately" idea like with the new language quest items BUT only good with it if it went in AFTER the expansion is released.I make no apologies for saving AND buying my 5000+ status items I have in my bank right now. I exploited no game mechanic, I did not kill 100's of grey mobs on end to get them. I did it in broad daylight, in full view of the server public and SOE database monitoring.I also have 21 collection quests, 1 HQ (the mistmoore shield one) and about 20+ other assorted quests on the "hand in" step waiting for November. Are they going to nerf those too?Once again, asking the question out in the open, in broad daylight. I feel my actions are NOT exploitations and are not against the spirit of the design of the game or the EULA. I am simply preferring to delay my earned gratification until it will be of more benefit to my and my guild family. Sort of like a lot of us do with our 401k and other retirement vehicles. I am by no means a powerleveler, raider or anything else. I am a leader of a casual fun guild that has been playing since my main character created in Nov. 2004 - I also play 3 accounts at once which allows me to fight a lot of group content and keep all the loot for myself. I have 3 computers with 3 keyboards - no macros - I do it all by hand. I also have all 9 crafters classes at level 70 (once again all by hand with ONLY the duration counters used) as well as Transmuting and Tinkering at 350 skill. Needlesss to say, I have put a LOT of time and effort into this game that I absolutely love. I do not disagree that there is an issue that needs to be addressed here. No-Trade seems to be the best idea put forth so far.Allurana

Dasein

08-30-2007, 05:37 PM

<cite>Sapphirius wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Jesdyr@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote>But the points about how this will have little impact on large/raiding guilds are accurate. If the idea of the change is to counter them, then there is no reason to do this change. If the reason is to limit the market for platfarmers, then just make the items no-trade and be done with it. </blockquote>Exactly. It will have a minimal impact at best on the guilds that this change was targeted at. It is the average player and the average guild that are going to be hurt most. Actually, saying "average" is a misnomer. It's going to affect lower level players in non-raiding guilds the most. Truthfully, a level 30 player works every bit as hard as a level 70 one in a family guild.To tell that lower level player, "Hey, guess what? You can't turn in status items any more to help the guild, so now you're going to have to work harder than your higher level guildmates." is just a slap in the face.</blockquote>I wonder 2 things: 1. What percentage of guild status is actually coming from status items, particularly lower level items?2. This 'family guild' you refer to - what level are they? After all, unless this guild is in the very high levels, your level 30 player likely will be able to contribute via status items (in addition to writs and HQs, of which many are geared towards the mid-levels).

Lionidas

08-30-2007, 05:39 PM

<cite>Sapphirius wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Jesdyr@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote>But the points about how this will have little impact on large/raiding guilds are accurate. If the idea of the change is to counter them, then there is no reason to do this change. If the reason is to limit the market for platfarmers, then just make the items no-trade and be done with it. </blockquote>Exactly. It will have a minimal impact at best on the guilds that this change was targeted at. It is the average player and the average guild that are going to be hurt most. Actually, saying "average" is a misnomer. It's going to affect lower level players in non-raiding guilds the most. Truthfully, a level 30 player works every bit as hard as a level 70 one in a family guild.To tell that lower level player, "Hey, guess what? You can't turn in status items any more to help the guild, so now you're going to have to work harder than your higher level guildmates." is just a slap in the face.</blockquote>It is going to also have a minimal impact to the lower level players in non-raiding guilds. How many times have you turned in status items and everyone in the guild said "Grats"? Never, unless you formally announced "Look at me! I'm turning in status items to help our guild gain a reputation!"If a lower level player is truly wanting to feel like they are being a part of the guild and contributing and being recognized by other members they should do writs. These give an announcement in guild, if the guild leader choses to have this option, that will tell everyone of what a valuable and hardworking member of the guild you are and in turn congratulate you on your achievement.

Rast

08-30-2007, 05:40 PM

<cite>Lionidas wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Jalathan@Lucan DLere wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Lionidas wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Sapphirius wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Lionidas wrote:</cite><blockquote>Also consider that he chose the one zone that awards the highest amount of status in the game. Like I said in my prior post, if he was to instead show the amount of status earned from a zone such as DT or EH the numbers would be drastically different. So if you want a realistic comparison you should look at a whole cycle of raiding, take time involved in organizing the raid and you may even want to factor in the costs involved in raiding vs the other styles.</blockquote>About 1.5K status per named raid mob... About 850 status per T7 writ... Hmmmm... This particular aspect of the debate is both pointless and off-topic, so I'm going to end it here as you seem to be more interested in arguing technicalities than in addressing the real problem.The real problem is that the guilds being hurt most by this are the small family-styled guilds. The players being hurt most by this are the lower-level players. How about you focus on this issue and just stop jumping on technicalities?</blockquote>No the people that are being hurt most by this is the ones that have purchased or saved crates full of these items in order to power level their way to the cap. The real problem is that they are removing this faulty mechanic and the only ones that are truly effected by it are the people that would otherwise be too lazy to work for something they really wanted to achieve. </blockquote>how many times do I have to tell you, that this will not overly impact these people that much at all?Even if they have 8 boxes with 32 slots filled with stacks of t7 status items, it would still only be 307,200 guild status. That will be easily compensated for by those very same guild by two runs through HoS. So all you did was put them back 2 weeks, did that improve your game any? Did that bruise your ego so much that you feel everyone should be punished because someone might save 2 weeks of their life to *gasp* PLAY a game?And it isn't like they went *poof* here they are, they WORKED for them, either by getting the gold to buy them or earned them by looting them from the mobs. Should they have been capable of buying them? That is a different argument that has no bearing on the direction they are taking./sighI'm done with debating with you since you obviously don't give a darn about the average player.</blockquote>I do care about the average player and I know that this last post was placed nearly the same time as the one before hand where I tried to give examples of the benefits that occur with this change to the average player.However I will say that the average player should not reap the same benefits as an above average player. A person that goes above and beyond what the average player does should be rewarded for it. Likewise a player that does less than the average player should be compensated with a smaller amount.</blockquote>ok, I'm going to break my rule to not continue with you on this, but you said something that really irked me and reeked of ignorance.What determines that? What determines effort to you? Remember, the t1 status items only give 10 status, that is definately less than what a lvl 70 could get for a t7 status item. So the reward/risk is already there, so why penalize the younger players more? What determines average vs above average? Someone who does writs, or someone who quests or someone who raids. You are treading very close on a subject, I don't think you want to drag this conversation into, IMNSHO.But the way you are talking you seem to think that a lvl 10 wants to be able to contribute lvl 70 levels of status, no that isn't the point, the point is, a lvl 10 should be able to lvl 10 status to a lvl 60 guild. A guild is about friends working together towards a common goal, not the high levels working towards a goal without the low levels.What is recommended WILL hurt the younger player, it will take longer for them to get the horses, the houses, etc and enjoy in the content this game has to offer, and it will impact these people far more than it will someone like me who raids 2 to 3 times a week. You are missing the bigger picture, you are seeing everything in your own ideology without concern of the impact outside of it.Why should content one of my alts experience matter less now than it did when I leveled my main? Just because the group of friends I'm with are stronger than they were then? Why should my accomplishments mean nothing now? Why should someone who just started the game not benefit from their accomplishments like I did as a youngster? Already a lvl 70 can work less and get more reward than a lvl 10. Why should we punish them further?

Runestone

08-30-2007, 05:40 PM

I am one of the players that will be hurt by this. My guild consists of my immediate family.. wife, son, daughter and myself. We work hard enough as it is to try and get that extra bit of status to level our guild. I still like the suggestion that was made a few pages back. Make the status items act like language quest items.. however, I would add to that. You can only acquire these status items if the mob(s) con green or better. This way everyone can contribute to the guild no matter what character level they are. This is just off of the top of my head.. I am sure it could be refined a little.

Rayche

08-30-2007, 05:43 PM

I feel you. At level 56 we've estimated that using Tradeskill writs alone it will take somewhere in the neighborhood of 3,200 more writs to ding 60.

Rast

08-30-2007, 05:46 PM

<cite>Dasein wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Sapphirius wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Jesdyr@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote>But the points about how this will have little impact on large/raiding guilds are accurate. If the idea of the change is to counter them, then there is no reason to do this change. If the reason is to limit the market for platfarmers, then just make the items no-trade and be done with it. </blockquote>Exactly. It will have a minimal impact at best on the guilds that this change was targeted at. It is the average player and the average guild that are going to be hurt most. Actually, saying "average" is a misnomer. It's going to affect lower level players in non-raiding guilds the most. Truthfully, a level 30 player works every bit as hard as a level 70 one in a family guild.To tell that lower level player, "Hey, guess what? You can't turn in status items any more to help the guild, so now you're going to have to work harder than your higher level guildmates." is just a slap in the face.</blockquote>I wonder 2 things: 1. What percentage of guild status is actually coming from status items, particularly lower level items?2. This 'family guild' you refer to - what level are they? After all, unless this guild is in the very high levels, your level 30 player likely will be able to contribute via status items (in addition to writs and HQs, of which many are geared towards the mid-levels).</blockquote>The guild she and I are in is lvl 60. I also have a couple alts in a lvl 45 guild that I helped found back in 2004 (same server).

Allurana

08-30-2007, 05:53 PM

One more question just popped into my head, and this is not asked just to be flippant.... Are you (SOE) going to be changing other things in the game to lower status in preparation for November?The reason I ask this is that my guild has been planning and preparing to kill Darathar in the first week after the expansion goes live. We have everyone in our guild doing all the prep work to get to the quest Deception right now so that we can do that quest the first week or second week after the expansion comes out. The few of us that have completed that quest already remember that mob giving BIG status to each person present so we thought, "Hey! Lets have a guild sponsored contest for saving status items AND a Prismatic 1 raid the first week as a couple of FUN expansion kick off activities". We do not feel the burning need to be guild level 80 first in the game or on the server but we will be doing it pretty fast though. Place all the restrictions you want on us, we have been known to run 12 characters doing writs end to end for 8 hours straight before. We will level. We even schedule city guild raids twice per raid week. Like I posted earlier, check your records - Smell The Roses has MOST the server discoveries for that loot on Blackburrow and yet we are still just a Casual, Fun guild.Please SOE communicate your plans with us so we can plan our time accordingly!Allurana

Lionidas

08-30-2007, 05:54 PM

<cite>Jalathan@Lucan DLere wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Lionidas wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Jalathan@Lucan DLere wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Lionidas wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Sapphirius wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Lionidas wrote:</cite><blockquote>Also consider that he chose the one zone that awards the highest amount of status in the game. Like I said in my prior post, if he was to instead show the amount of status earned from a zone such as DT or EH the numbers would be drastically different. So if you want a realistic comparison you should look at a whole cycle of raiding, take time involved in organizing the raid and you may even want to factor in the costs involved in raiding vs the other styles.</blockquote>About 1.5K status per named raid mob... About 850 status per T7 writ... Hmmmm... This particular aspect of the debate is both pointless and off-topic, so I'm going to end it here as you seem to be more interested in arguing technicalities than in addressing the real problem.The real problem is that the guilds being hurt most by this are the small family-styled guilds. The players being hurt most by this are the lower-level players. How about you focus on this issue and just stop jumping on technicalities?</blockquote>No the people that are being hurt most by this is the ones that have purchased or saved crates full of these items in order to power level their way to the cap. The real problem is that they are removing this faulty mechanic and the only ones that are truly effected by it are the people that would otherwise be too lazy to work for something they really wanted to achieve. </blockquote>how many times do I have to tell you, that this will not overly impact these people that much at all?Even if they have 8 boxes with 32 slots filled with stacks of t7 status items, it would still only be 307,200 guild status. That will be easily compensated for by those very same guild by two runs through HoS. So all you did was put them back 2 weeks, did that improve your game any? Did that bruise your ego so much that you feel everyone should be punished because someone might save 2 weeks of their life to *gasp* PLAY a game?And it isn't like they went *poof* here they are, they WORKED for them, either by getting the gold to buy them or earned them by looting them from the mobs. Should they have been capable of buying them? That is a different argument that has no bearing on the direction they are taking./sighI'm done with debating with you since you obviously don't give a darn about the average player.</blockquote>I do care about the average player and I know that this last post was placed nearly the same time as the one before hand where I tried to give examples of the benefits that occur with this change to the average player.However I will say that the average player should not reap the same benefits as an above average player. A person that goes above and beyond what the average player does should be rewarded for it. Likewise a player that does less than the average player should be compensated with a smaller amount.</blockquote>ok, I'm going to break my rule to not continue with you on this, but you said something that really irked me and reeked of ignorance.What determines that? What determines effort to you? Remember, the t1 status items only give 10 status, that is definately less than what a lvl 70 could get for a t7 status item. So the reward/risk is already there, so why penalize the younger players more? What determines average vs above average? Someone who does writs, or someone who quests or someone who raids. You are treading very close on a subject, I don't think you want to drag this conversation into, IMNSHO.But the way you are talking you seem to think that a lvl 10 wants to be able to contribute lvl 70 levels of status, no that isn't the point, the point is, a lvl 10 should be able to lvl 10 status to a lvl 60 guild. A guild is about friends working together towards a common goal, not the high levels working towards a goal without the low levels.What is recommended WILL hurt the younger player, it will take longer for them to get the horses, the houses, etc and enjoy in the content this game has to offer, and it will impact these people far more than it will someone like me who raids 2 to 3 times a week. You are missing the bigger picture, you are seeing everything in your own ideology without concern of the impact outside of it.Why should content one of my alts experience matter less now than it did when I leveled my main? Just because the group of friends I'm with are stronger than they were then? Why should my accomplishments mean nothing now? Why should someone who just started the game not benefit from their accomplishments like I did as a youngster? Already a lvl 70 can work less and get more reward than a lvl 10. Why should we punish them further?</blockquote>I did not label lower level players as average you did. Funny, a few weeks ago I started a guild from scratch on another server, knowing no one there, not having any higher level toons there and not having any advantage that I would of received if I did the same on my present server. Each level that the guild has gotten so far has been a major reward and it feels good when we get it. Right now we are just looking forward to guild level 10. I like the challenge and I do not want to be recognized or singled out every time I do something to help the guild. My level 32 brigand is not average because I do my best no matter what. It is the people behind the toon that determine if they are average are not.

kreepr

08-30-2007, 05:57 PM

<cite>Lionidas wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Jalathan@Lucan DLere wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Lionidas wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Sapphirius wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Lionidas wrote:</cite><blockquote>Also consider that he chose the one zone that awards the highest amount of status in the game. Like I said in my prior post, if he was to instead show the amount of status earned from a zone such as DT or EH the numbers would be drastically different. So if you want a realistic comparison you should look at a whole cycle of raiding, take time involved in organizing the raid and you may even want to factor in the costs involved in raiding vs the other styles.</blockquote>About 1.5K status per named raid mob... About 850 status per T7 writ... Hmmmm... This particular aspect of the debate is both pointless and off-topic, so I'm going to end it here as you seem to be more interested in arguing technicalities than in addressing the real problem.The real problem is that the guilds being hurt most by this are the small family-styled guilds. The players being hurt most by this are the lower-level players. How about you focus on this issue and just stop jumping on technicalities?</blockquote>No the people that are being hurt most by this is the ones that have purchased or saved crates full of these items in order to power level their way to the cap. The real problem is that they are removing this faulty mechanic and the only ones that are truly effected by it are the people that would otherwise be too lazy to work for something they really wanted to achieve. </blockquote>how many times do I have to tell you, that this will not overly impact these people that much at all?Even if they have 8 boxes with 32 slots filled with stacks of t7 status items, it would still only be 307,200 guild status. That will be easily compensated for by those very same guild by two runs through HoS. So all you did was put them back 2 weeks, did that improve your game any? Did that bruise your ego so much that you feel everyone should be punished because someone might save 2 weeks of their life to *gasp* PLAY a game?And it isn't like they went *poof* here they are, they WORKED for them, either by getting the gold to buy them or earned them by looting them from the mobs. Should they have been capable of buying them? That is a different argument that has no bearing on the direction they are taking./sighI'm done with debating with you since you obviously don't give a darn about the average player.</blockquote>I do care about the average player and I know that this last post was placed nearly the same time as the one before hand where I tried to give examples of the benefits that occur with this change to the average player.However I will say that the average player should not reap the same benefits as an above average player. A person that goes above and beyond what the average player does should be rewarded for it. Likewise a player that does less than the average player should be compensated with a smaller amount.</blockquote>Are you kidding me LOLYou have no clue do you?? All you care about is what you want. Your trying to cut hairs it's 10 points from a blackendiron buddha and your comparing that to what ?? Your above average uberness will still go undaunted by us meager little players if we still have are status items. Don't worry. For your info.... I am a guild leader and yes we do take notice to people raising guild status no matter how much. Have thanked they lower level players for there contributions and turning in the status items. Cause in the end every point counts.

Sapphirius

08-30-2007, 05:58 PM

<cite>Dasein wrote:</cite><blockquote>I wonder 2 things: 1. What percentage of guild status is actually coming from status items, particularly lower level items?2. This 'family guild' you refer to - what level are they? After all, unless this guild is in the very high levels, your level 30 player likely will be able to contribute via status items (in addition to writs and HQs, of which many are geared towards the mid-levels).</blockquote>The example I gave was my escape alt, a level-locked 34 warlock who gains adventure levels solely through quests and location discoveries. I've already stated that her guild is level 54 in quite a few posts already. Perhaps, a better example would be LOTT on LDL.Question # 1 - Legends of the Tundra is a level 60 guild. We worked for that level. We worked hard for it. Out of all the status that went towards leveling the guild, maybe 5% tops was from status loot. No, it's not much, but it's something.Question # 2 - In our guild, we have a lot of younger members. Some of these are alt-o-holics. Some are escape alts from our sister-RP server (AB). Some are people who are just simply more limited in their playtime than others. We even have some people who are completely and totally new to EQ2 and even MMORPGs in general. As a result, these players are very low level (and, no, not because they aren't working every bit as hard as me with my multiple level 70 characters worked).LOTT is a level 60 guild that bases guild rank on guild status. When someone reaches the rank of "Dragon Guard," we even have a special promotion ceremony with a xegonite dragon statue to recognize them for their efforts. We hand out monetary awards whenever they're promoted to a new guild rank, no matter how small the promotion may be with a nice little letter in-game and usually a message over guild chat congratulating them for their efforts. This happens at 5K, 50K, 100K, 500K, and 1 million. Yes, the amount required gets significantly higher with each rank.Our members appreciate this. They appreciate knowing that their small amounts of contribution are being noticed and recognized, and they like that there are no arbitrary or possibly biased requirements to gain rank. It's all spelled out for them in black and white. You want to be promoted? This is what you must do. It makes them feel valued and appreciated when they give something towards the guild, even if it just awarded them a whopping total of 10 GSP. One kid in our guild was so discouraged because he kept dieing trying to finish writs, and he only had a limited amount of time to play in, but he wanted so badly to contribute to the guild and know that we appreciated his efforts. When we taught this kid about status loot and that he could turn it in for GSP as well, I thought he was going to cry.It made him feel good to know that he at least had some recourse to contribute to the guild. This current proposal on Test will essentially devalue lower level players who are members of higher level guilds. No, they aren't really contributing much to begin with, but they are contributing. The knowledge that they are doing something makes them feel like they are valued and appreciated by teh guild's leadership.

Rast

08-30-2007, 06:03 PM

<cite>Sapphirius wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Dasein wrote:</cite><blockquote>I wonder 2 things: 1. What percentage of guild status is actually coming from status items, particularly lower level items?2. This 'family guild' you refer to - what level are they? After all, unless this guild is in the very high levels, your level 30 player likely will be able to contribute via status items (in addition to writs and HQs, of which many are geared towards the mid-levels).</blockquote>The example I gave was my escape alt, a level-locked 34 warlock who gains adventure levels solely through quests and location discoveries. I've already stated that her guild is level 54 in quite a few posts already. Perhaps, a better example would be LOTT on LDL.Question # 1 - Legends of the Tundra is a level 60 guild. We worked for that level. We worked hard for it. Out of all the status that went towards leveling the guild, maybe 5% tops was from status loot. No, it's not much, but it's something.Question # 2 - In our guild, we have a lot of younger members. Some of these are alt-o-holics. Some are escape alts from our sister-RP server (AB). Some are people who are just simply more limited in their playtime than others. We even have some people who are completely and totally new to EQ2 and even MMORPGs in general. As a result, these players are very low level (and, no, not because they aren't working every bit as hard as me with my multiple level 70 characters worked).LOTT is a level 60 guild that bases guild rank on guild status. When someone reaches the rank of "Dragon Guard," we even have a special promotion ceremony with a xegonite dragon statue to recognize them for their efforts. We hand out monetary awards whenever they're promoted to a new guild rank, no matter how small the promotion may be with a nice little letter in-game and usually a message over guild chat congratulating them for their efforts. This happens at 5K, 50K, 100K, 500K, and 1 million. Yes, the amount required gets significantly higher with each rank.Our members appreciate this. They appreciate knowing that their small amounts of contribution are being noticed and recognized, and they like that there are no arbitrary or possibly biased requirements to gain rank. It's all spelled out for them in black and white. You want to be promoted? This is what you must do. It makes them feel valued and appreciated when they give something towards the guild, even if it just awarded them a whopping total of 10 GSP. One kid in our guild was so discouraged because he kept dieing trying to finish writs, and he only had a limited amount of time to play in, but he wanted so badly to contribute to the guild and know that we appreciated his efforts. When we taught this kid about status loot and that he could turn it in for GSP as well, I thought he was going to cry.It made him feel good to know that he at least had some recourse to contribute to the guild. This current proposal on Test will essentially devalue lower level players who are members of higher level guilds. No, they aren't really contributing much to begin with, but they are contributing. The knowledge that they are doing something makes them feel like they are valued and appreciated by teh guild's leadership.</blockquote>Very well said, very well said.

Sunlei

08-30-2007, 06:16 PM

Not allowing the low level players status item loot to help lvl their own guild is a big big mistake! My guild is now lvl 58, it's taken over a year to go from lvl 19-58. A lot of the players are lvl 30-50ish and are weekend warriors. They like doing hq,some status hunts,writs and they turnin their status items. It just seems kind of wackie to restrict honest low lvl players from helping lvl their higher lvl guild, yet still allow the massive farming,selling and RL money trade that goes on over those status items!There must be a better way to stop guilds from BUYING their guild levels. The idea about making the status items no-trade or insta-status at looting seems like a much more fair way to me! Why continue the gold-gravy train for the plat farmers by keeping status items broker sellable?

Maroger

08-30-2007, 06:34 PM

SOE just through the baby out with the bath water -- like they usuall do with some changes.I can certainly understand them not wanting a guild to reach max level within 1 week after launch -- but the changes go far deeper and broader than putting a break on level 60 guilds.I really hurts all guilded level players unless they are level 70 in a level 60 guild. It espcially hurts low level guilds with few members -- it will make levelling their guild much harder and may cause members to get frustrated with the guild levelling.If they just wanted to apply a brake to level 60 and/or level 50 guilds why don't they just make the restrictions APPLY TO ONLY THOSE GUILDS. Let a level 25 o4 35 guild sill benefit from members turning into those status items -- it doesn't hurt the game one bit to allow this. Some of those status items give so little guild SP I really doubt that a level 60 guild is filling up their banks with them. Once again this a change that has not been thoroughly thought out.This biggest impact of this changes will be for Plat Farmers --- they are already forming up a parade to celebrate the changes as they can now sell these status items for alot more money than they are selling for now. Grats to the developers and the "great minds" that thought up this change -- you have just made plat farmers a whole lot richer!!

Vatec

08-30-2007, 06:35 PM

Basically all this change will do is encourage low-level players to stay in low-level guilds. This is a Very Bad Thing in my opinion. It's bad enough that there are some guilds that simply won't accept your "application" unless you're level 70 with 100 AAs. But changing the status loot this way, in addition to being monumentally unfair if it's done surreptitiously just before an expansion that people have been planning around, also reinforces the idea that newbies are only worthy of being in newbie guilds, alts should stick to alt guilds, etc.Any mechanic that encourages people to abandon their current friends in the interest of efficiency is monumentally stupid, in my opinion.

KKLSTARR

08-30-2007, 06:39 PM

Here is my .02... The "majority" of you crying about this are only crying because you wanted to be max guild level in a short time. You didnt want to work towards it , you wanted to buy it. Now that you found out you will have to work towards it like other guilds who do it the old fashion way , you are crying. And yes , some are going to argue its the principle of the matter. SoE should have told us.... [Removed for Content] ?!?! were they suppose to post something like 6 months ago and say . " We are going to change the status items , but we arent going to do it now. We are going to put it on test in like 6 months and leave it on test for another month. " Get real. They HAVE told us. Its on test .... what more do you people want.I also would like to add , most of the people on here crying about this are going to also be the same ones crying in 2 months after RoK that they are done with everything and [Removed for Content] SoE for not releasing something else for them to do. Im not one of these people who say take your time in a game as to the point that you are always so far behind but jesus .... the devs only have so much time to develop new areas / content. Why dont you play the game the way you KNOW it was intended to be played. This way the players win and the devs dont have to hear crying all the time. There are only a hand full of devs to develop yet many thousands of players out there trying to find shortcuts. Many of yall will flame me and say im a noob and everything else ... so thanks in advance.

Ama

08-30-2007, 06:44 PM

I sincerly hope that this is a joke and not meant to go live with GU#38. If it is not then I am thoroughly dissapointed at this change. Looking at my fellow players I deffinately agree this shuts down alot of doors for those guilds that don't have many players. In my guild we have about 10-15 active players at most and only 4-7 of them are on more than three times a week. At the moment I have toons ranging from 17 to 70 and collect as many status items as possible. Now when your out soloing and get into a rhythm you can collect a significant amount of items. However from what I have seen that amount can decrease by 25% as you go from 17-70. All items that I receive are sent to my main toon where everything is pooled together. This in turn helps me keep track of my status and how much I contribute to the guild. If you start labeling status items to be restrictive to certain guilds because of level it will shut down a reasonable amount of status. It's this status that small guilds may need in order to advance themselves since they don't have as many members as a medium or large size guild. However saying that I do understand the reason why it is necessary to label restriction. On kithicor inside of 1 day I saw 2 guilds go from level 50 to 60 because they turned in massive amounts of status items. To remedy this problem there are a couple of alternative routes to go than just shutting these people down. These routes may fix the problem even better since people will still hoard T7-T8 items. 1st Option: Put in a time inhibitor on status items that are turned in. On each account you can only turn in X amount of status items before the inhibitor kicks in. As the name suggests the more items you turn in the less status it contributes to the guild until it reaches 0%. This percentage regenerates over time taking 24-30hrs to reach to 10% and it continues onward. Another more sensible solution maybe just to set a fixed amount that you can receive from status items per day or per week. After that amount is reached you must wait till it resets and then you can sell more status items to contribute to the guild. The lower the level of the guild the more this amount is and the higher it is the lower the amount is set. 2nd Option: NPCs could be augmented to where they recognize how much status is contributed by a person through selling items. If this amount starts approaching a certain number it is cut off and the amount is no longer contributed towards the guild. It deals with low level items up to high end T7-T8 items. Then like the 1st option you have to wait a certain amount of time before you can contribute again. In order to prevent exploiting it would be made to the main toon on the account. After that limit is reached you can't log on toons B, C, D, E, and F to turn in status towards the guild. This could be used in conjunction with the Fixed Guild Status under the 1st option so that guilds can't just have 50 accounts turning in 40 status items each rewarding 800 SP a piece. 3rd Option: I don't like this option, but if status items become a problem they could be stripped away entirely not awarding any points towards the guild for selling them. A lesser extent would be reducing their contribution to 1-2% from the 10%. If the guild status items are nullified I would hope that they offer not only personal status, but faction towards the people they are turned into. (EX: I'm good and a Qeynosian I turn 20 fighter items into the Qeynos Guards I get ((SP amount / 10) x 2) as a reward).

Armawk

08-30-2007, 06:48 PM

<cite>KKLSTARR wrote:</cite><blockquote>Here is my .02... The "majority" of you crying about this are only crying because you wanted to be max guild level in a short time. </blockquote>Its not worth 2 cents.Many of the people commenting here are not in any way in that position, and care primarily about the effect on low level characters.

Sapphirius

08-30-2007, 06:53 PM

<cite>shaunfletcher wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>KKLSTARR wrote:</cite><blockquote>Here is my .02... The "majority" of you crying about this are only crying because you wanted to be max guild level in a short time. </blockquote>Its not worth 2 cents.Many of the people commenting here are not in any way in that position, and care primarily about the effect on low level characters.</blockquote>QFT

Kenazeer

08-30-2007, 06:54 PM

How about at the same time they change status loot they increase writ rewards? If status items do not play a large part in levelling a guild then why all the fuss? If they do in fact play a disproportionate role in guild levelling, was this what SOE intended? One last thing, as far as how it will effect levelling 61-80, no one except the devs have a clue. Maybe they are going to lessen the curve overall, meaning that it will in fact be easier to level a guild, and the status WOULD in fact play a huge role if allowed to be turned in at once. Who knows? Not any of us, so all these statements of "fact" about how it will or will not affect guilds are actually just speculation. I can say, with some degree of certainity, that when SOE introduced status loot they did not want/anticipate that they would become the tools they have. 1) Play a large part of the guild levelling mechanism (as evidenced by the outcry 2) Become a way for guilds to "store" experience in advance of a level cap.

CoebyWu

08-30-2007, 06:54 PM

<cite>Sapphirius wrote:</cite> <blockquote>It made him feel good to know that he at least had some recourse to contribute to the guild. This current proposal on Test will essentially devalue lower level players who are members of higher level guilds. No, they aren't really contributing much to begin with, but they are contributing. The knowledge that they are doing something makes them feel like they are valued and appreciated by teh guild's leadership.</blockquote>Times have changed. Back in my day, contributing to the guild meant doing writs and heritage quests, and it was a factor of ALL members in the guild. Then again, that was before DoF, and before such things as status items you could turn in. However, I did manage to lead a guild to level 30 before any other guild on the server. Maybe my definition of contributing is different than yours. I'm very happy to see this change. Unlike some of the vocal people here, I don't agree that this change will hinder lower level players in their contributions. Heritage quests and a set of writs every now and then can really add up. In fact, they can add up much more than turning in status items. Afterall, you can't buy finished Heritage quests or writs, they require effort and dedication. Isn't that what leveling a guild is all about?

Freliant

08-30-2007, 06:57 PM

As I have said before, my vote goes to just having the items auto apply upon looting, and all current status loot automatically apply to the person holding it (even if that person never logs in till Kunark to try to overcome this). The reason the change was made was to prevent guilds from trivializing leveling, and if some people believe that strongly that low level players are going to be that adversly affected, then my suggestion clears that up right away. I can't put in petitions, but if enough people agree, I am sure that the devs will look into this suggestion. It solves the guild level up problem, and the lowbie not being able to contribute problem.

KKLSTARR

08-30-2007, 07:03 PM

<cite>Sapphirius wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>shaunfletcher wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>KKLSTARR wrote:</cite><blockquote>Here is my .02... The "majority" of you crying about this are only crying because you wanted to be max guild level in a short time. </blockquote>Its not worth 2 cents.Many of the people commenting here are not in any way in that position, and care primarily about the effect on low level characters.</blockquote>QFT</blockquote>Oh give me a <a rel="nofollow" href="mailto:!@%$" target="_blank">[Removed for Content]</a> break.... You people just like to cry I swear to god .... So what - say you have a lvl 30 in a lvl 60 guild ... And say he doesnt have a main , this 30 is his main. Now , HOW many status items is the guild REALLY losing .... BOOOHOOOO ... he cant turn in a handful of status items , which only gives a small amount of guild status. If he ONLY cares about helping the guild , he can go knock out some writs and get MORE guild exp. Now , what about the lower lvl ones who BUY the status items ... Sounds to me like they have a main they can farm T7+ with. Bottom line is I dont see anyway you can make a reasonable argument against this move. And also , the only ones to blame are the other players who caused SoE to do this.QFT

Asif

08-30-2007, 07:10 PM

Heck just take them out of the game and in 3 months from now no one would even remember.We will all just keep trucking along with this change as we have with every change.

Sapphirius

08-30-2007, 07:15 PM

<cite>Zengrok@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote>Times have changed. Back in my day, contributing to the guild meant doing writs and heritage quests, and it was a factor of ALL members in the guild. Then again, that was before DoF, and before such things as status items you could turn in. However, I did manage to lead a guild to level 30 before any other guild on the server. Maybe my definition of contributing is different than yours.</blockquote>Back in your day, only patrons could contribute status to a guild, so this change would have only affected the 12 people you designated as a patron for your guild. Now-a-days, anyone can contribute guild status.If they are effectively eliminating this as one of the ways that a low-level guild member can contribute to their guild, then they need to just remove the items completely. However, allowing a level 70 to turn in his status items for his level 60 guild while not giving a level 30 in that same guild the same recourse is a slap in the face. Marking them as "no-trade" or making them an immediately-consumed item resolves this issue.

Dasein

08-30-2007, 07:16 PM

<cite>Maroger wrote:</cite><blockquote>SOE just through the baby out with the bath water -- like they usuall do with some changes.I can certainly understand them not wanting a guild to reach max level within 1 week after launch -- but the changes go far deeper and broader than putting a break on level 60 guilds.I really hurts all guilded level players unless they are level 70 in a level 60 guild. It espcially hurts low level guilds with few members -- it will make levelling their guild much harder and may cause members to get frustrated with the guild levelling.If they just wanted to apply a brake to level 60 and/or level 50 guilds why don't they just make the restrictions APPLY TO ONLY THOSE GUILDS. Let a level 25 o4 35 guild sill benefit from members turning into those status items -- it doesn't hurt the game one bit to allow this. Some of those status items give so little guild SP I really doubt that a level 60 guild is filling up their banks with them. Once again this a change that has not been thoroughly thought out.This biggest impact of this changes will be for Plat Farmers --- they are already forming up a parade to celebrate the changes as they can now sell these status items for alot more money than they are selling for now. Grats to the developers and the "great minds" that thought up this change -- you have just made plat farmers a whole lot richer!!</blockquote>I really do not see how this makes levelling a guild much harder for anyone, really. A small guild will not be turning in very low level status loot items in sufficient quantity to make much of an impact, and will be able to turn in the higher level items for a fairly long period of time as they will level slowly compared to larger guilds.A level 24 guild, for example, will only be locked out of the T1 and T2 items, which give 10 and 20 points of guild status respectively. This will hardly have an impact on guild levelling, especially when you consider that a single writ will provide hundreds of points of guild status.Really, people are blowigint his change so incredibly out of proportion, it is amazing. Further, no one has been considering the changes that make levelling a guild far easier than ever before. Guild levelling has gotten progressively easier over the years, and this minor change does virtually nothing to undo that trend.

Vatec

08-30-2007, 07:22 PM

<cite>KKLSTARR wrote:</cite><blockquote>Here is my .02... The "majority" of you crying about this are only crying because you wanted to be max guild level in a short time. You didnt want to work towards it , you wanted to buy it. Now that you found out you will have to work towards it like other guilds who do it the old fashion way , you are crying. And yes , some are going to argue its the principle of the matter. SoE should have told us.... [I cannot control my vocabulary] ?!?! were they suppose to post something like 6 months ago and say . " We are going to change the status items , but we arent going to do it now. We are going to put it on test in like 6 months and leave it on test for another month. " Get real. They HAVE told us. Its on test .... what more do you people want.I also would like to add , most of the people on here crying about this are going to also be the same ones crying in 2 months after RoK that they are done with everything and [I cannot control my vocabulary] SoE for not releasing something else for them to do. Im not one of these people who say take your time in a game as to the point that you are always so far behind but jesus .... the devs only have so much time to develop new areas / content. Why dont you play the game the way you KNOW it was intended to be played. This way the players win and the devs dont have to hear crying all the time. There are only a hand full of devs to develop yet many thousands of players out there trying to find shortcuts. Many of yall will flame me and say im a noob and everything else ... so thanks in advance.</blockquote>And in what way is stockpiling these items any less "work" than doing writs or any of the other ways we give our guilds status? The various players still had to harvest raws or farm loot to get the cash to buy the status items.And if SOE is trying to prevent people stockpiling these items, making them no-trade (but still usable no matter what the guild's level) harms far fewer people than the current proposed change.Basically, this hurts small guilds that have a small number of accounts but several alts per account. I.E., the typical small guild composed of a few RL friends. Yes, it accomplishes the primary purpose of preventing big guilds from stockpiling items, but SOE should have thought of that six months ago, not six weeks before RoK goes live.

Vatec

08-30-2007, 07:27 PM

<cite>Freliant wrote:</cite><blockquote>As I have said before, my vote goes to just having the items auto apply upon looting, and all current status loot automatically apply to the person holding it (even if that person never logs in till Kunark to try to overcome this). The reason the change was made was to prevent guilds from trivializing leveling, and if some people believe that strongly that low level players are going to be that adversly affected, then my suggestion clears that up right away. I can't put in petitions, but if enough people agree, I am sure that the devs will look into this suggestion. It solves the guild level up problem, and the lowbie not being able to contribute problem.</blockquote>Well, we're all =assuming= this is the reason. Until a red name says so, it's still conjecture. For all we know, SOE is doing it because they think it will combat plat-farming or something. It's not like SOE made an announcement or even included the change in the patch notes....

KKLSTARR

08-30-2007, 07:29 PM

<cite>Vatec wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>KKLSTARR wrote:</cite><blockquote>Here is my .02... The "majority" of you crying about this are only crying because you wanted to be max guild level in a short time. You didnt want to work towards it , you wanted to buy it. Now that you found out you will have to work towards it like other guilds who do it the old fashion way , you are crying. And yes , some are going to argue its the principle of the matter. SoE should have told us.... [I cannot control my vocabulary] ?!?! were they suppose to post something like 6 months ago and say . " We are going to change the status items , but we arent going to do it now. We are going to put it on test in like 6 months and leave it on test for another month. " Get real. They HAVE told us. Its on test .... what more do you people want.I also would like to add , most of the people on here crying about this are going to also be the same ones crying in 2 months after RoK that they are done with everything and [I cannot control my vocabulary] SoE for not releasing something else for them to do. Im not one of these people who say take your time in a game as to the point that you are always so far behind but jesus .... the devs only have so much time to develop new areas / content. Why dont you play the game the way you KNOW it was intended to be played. This way the players win and the devs dont have to hear crying all the time. There are only a hand full of devs to develop yet many thousands of players out there trying to find shortcuts. Many of yall will flame me and say im a noob and everything else ... so thanks in advance.</blockquote>And in what way is stockpiling these items any less "work" than doing writs or any of the other ways we give our guilds status? The various players still had to harvest raws or farm loot to get the cash to buy the status items.And if SOE is trying to prevent people stockpiling these items, making them no-trade (but still usable no matter what the guild's level) harms far fewer people than the current proposed change.Basically, this hurts small guilds that have a small number of accounts but several alts per account. I.E., the typical small guild composed of a few RL friends. Yes, it accomplishes the primary purpose of preventing big guilds from stockpiling items, but SOE should have thought of that six months ago, not six weeks before RoK goes live.</blockquote>LOL - how does this even hurt smaller guilds ??? You have to be talking about a small guild lvl 60 then cause this in noway affects small guilds say like lvl 20. And if you are talking about a small lvl 60 guild , then im sorry but you should not expect to lvl at the same rate as a lvl 60 guild with 100 members. And if you do , you are being unrealistic. As a small lvl 60 guild , guess what. GO DO WRITS and the new HQS ( and even old ones cause I doubt yall have done em all ). Then turn in your T7 status items. Cause i doubt there are many lvl 60 guilds that are all in T4. I dont even know of any of those on a pvp server where the players lock. ( Without lvl 70 mains though ). So where was I .... Thats right - if you are a small lvl 60 guild then it is pretty easy to assume yall are all T6+. In that case , all the status items you will loot will help ya lvl the guild (the T7+ ones that is ).