Parsing the Duel Wield changes on test [Archive]

Bunion

08-21-2007, 05:22 PM

I ran some logs on test with my Swashbuckler first using 1 hand qeynos kilij with me spec'd as wisdom (one handed double attack line) and then did duel wield with the kilij and qeynos cutlass. Both weapons have exact same damage and delay ratings and the same proc. Both 31-92 damage with a 1.6 delay and 76.8 damage rating. I straight autoattacked the mob, no combat arts, no haste proc. and had a 25 haste rating which is 28% increase in attack speed. I killed the same amount of mobs and the same make up mobs each time. (I was able to get both weapons since you can buy them from an NPC in Qeynos Harbor) With 1 handed:Total DPS: 502, pierce 91% damage, Power of Marr 9% (Proc Rate 3.6%)Melee: 458dps, 751 swings, 751 hits, 143 crits, avg delay 0.66Duel Wield:Total DPS: 423, pierce 49%, Slash 45%, Power of Marr 6% (Proc Rate 2.5%)Melee: 397 dps, 731 swings, 731 hits, 158 crits, avg delay 0.73 A couple of notes on this, with Freehand Reversal I will riposte 5% of all frontal attacks, which I was swung at 240 times, which should be roughly around 12 extra attacks with 1 hand. But that still only changes the delay to 0.67. (Based on 730 attacks in 494 seconds instead of the 751 in that time) With duel wield I figured the extra pierce damage percentage was due to ripostes since I had the Kijil (piercing) in main hand.The proc rate is what I find strange, since it will not proc on the double attack, you'd think that the duel wield would at least equal the proc rate as 1 handed, but apparently not. Obviously this wasn't a huge sample but should give a fairly decent idea of what happens. Seems to be at least in this limited test that 1 hand is still the way to go. (I had posted this on the Duel Wield changes under testing feedback, but seemed to get lost in a discussion on brawler DPS)Callus70 Swashbuckler Guk

PakMonyet

08-21-2007, 05:40 PM

Nice Post! Finally some real data......

Antas22

08-22-2007, 08:11 AM

Proc rates are screwed up with the new changes. Brawlers, in particular, have been complaining about it in the In Testing forum. Higher delay when you dual wield, but the proc percentage stays the same. So the Kijil is proccing on the same number of original swings (not counting double attacks) in both setups, but when dual wielding, you're swinging it less often. I think, unless this is changed, more testing, particularly in a raiding environment, is going to see dual wield falling very short, which will only serve to further agrivate those classes who don't have a double-attack AA line.

Ookami-san

08-22-2007, 12:02 PM

I also hear attack is messed up and you hit more often on test. =( So dps numbers are probably skewed at this point since the hit % will be messed up... tho... it should be messed up for both, so they shouldn't be too far off... still... the extra STR from the off-hand weapon will bump ATK up slightly.

Delow

08-22-2007, 12:52 PM

Antas@Oasis wrote: <blockquote>Proc rates are screwed up with the new changes. Brawlers, in particular, have been complaining about it in the In Testing forum. Higher delay when you dual wield, but the proc percentage stays the same. So the Kijil is proccing on the same number of original swings (not counting double attacks) in both setups, but when dual wielding, you're swinging it less often. I think, unless this is changed, more testing, particularly in a raiding environment, is going to see dual wield falling very short, which will only serve to further agrivate those classes who don't have a double-attack AA line. </blockquote> One of the devs posted the following under the in testing feedback forum:"Once the gu38 test update goes out the proc calculation will change slightly. Since procs are based off you unhasted base delay they will start to use delay * 1.33 to match their true base delay when dual wielding. If you don't dual wield or use a ranged weapon then they will still use the base delay of the weapon for proc calculations." I am sure they will address the major concerns of DW once GU38 hits the test servers, until then I would hold off on any actual DPS comparing with DW and 1h specs.

Antas22

08-22-2007, 04:18 PM

<cite>Odeius@Guk wrote:</cite><blockquote> One of the devs posted the following under the in testing feedback forum:"Once the gu38 test update goes out the proc calculation will change slightly. Since procs are based off you unhasted base delay they will start to use delay * 1.33 to match their true base delay when dual wielding. If you don't dual wield or use a ranged weapon then they will still use the base delay of the weapon for proc calculations." I am sure they will address the major concerns of DW once GU38 hits the test servers, until then I would hold off on any actual DPS comparing with DW and 1h specs.</blockquote>See there, this is what happens when I don't actually bother to keep up on a thread. Instead of degrading into nonsense as most do, there's actually a useful post from SoE. It's a conspiracy, I tell ya.<img src="/eq2/images/smilies/0320a00cb4bb5629ab9fc2bc1fcc4e9e.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" />

Geakor

09-07-2007, 04:20 PM

That is not a good post and that is completely unfair data. It is when you put in these extra factors that makes things worse.Unspec WIS line and try again. Have no AA's what so ever and see what you get. Either that or Spec the other line that you normal do (STR or AGI) with 1hander and then respec to STR/AGI and have someone taunt the mob so you hit it from behind for Avast Ye.You spec something that is going to increase your damage for one set but not something for the other. You want to know whats going to be better - duel wield or 1handing - well of course if you add an extra spec in there for 1handed damage your going to get more dps.

Pulli

09-07-2007, 07:41 PM

I would assume he went str/agi for the dual wield parsing because common sense says to instead of staying wis line for that parsing, although he didn't state it. However the gap is a little too large to be accurate and would suggest he not not respec. I highly doubt there is a 15.8% difference in DPS between the two specs based on other posts on this forum as well as my own parsing. However, the proc rate on this parse is screwy so it is entirely possible that did create the gap since that proc rate would effect all procs (poisons, bravado, offensive stance...).EDIT: He mentioned he did not use haste proc or combat arts, but he made no mention of offensive stance which has a small proc, but it can add up.

Cocytus

09-07-2007, 08:26 PM

<cite>Geakor wrote:</cite><blockquote>That is not a good post and that is completely unfair data. It is when you put in these extra factors that makes things worse.Unspec WIS line and try again. Have no AA's what so ever and see what you get. Either that or Spec the other line that you normal do (STR or AGI) with 1hander and then respec to STR/AGI and have someone taunt the mob so you hit it from behind for Avast Ye.You spec something that is going to increase your damage for one set but not something for the other. You want to know whats going to be better - duel wield or 1handing - well of course if you add an extra spec in there for 1handed damage your going to get more dps.</blockquote>....Why the hell would you parse 1h without being wisdom specced?

Hamervelder

09-07-2007, 10:28 PM

<cite>Cocytus wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Geakor wrote:</cite><blockquote>That is not a good post and that is completely unfair data. It is when you put in these extra factors that makes things worse.Unspec WIS line and try again. Have no AA's what so ever and see what you get. Either that or Spec the other line that you normal do (STR or AGI) with 1hander and then respec to STR/AGI and have someone taunt the mob so you hit it from behind for Avast Ye.You spec something that is going to increase your damage for one set but not something for the other. You want to know whats going to be better - duel wield or 1handing - well of course if you add an extra spec in there for 1handed damage your going to get more dps.</blockquote>....Why the hell would you parse 1h without being wisdom specced?</blockquote>To make the brigand in the next group feel better about himself? Hehe sorry, I couldn't resist. <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Antas22

09-08-2007, 01:19 AM

<cite>Cocytus wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Geakor wrote:</cite><blockquote>That is not a good post and that is completely unfair data. It is when you put in these extra factors that makes things worse.Unspec WIS line and try again. Have no AA's what so ever and see what you get. Either that or Spec the other line that you normal do (STR or AGI) with 1hander and then respec to STR/AGI and have someone taunt the mob so you hit it from behind for Avast Ye.You spec something that is going to increase your damage for one set but not something for the other. You want to know whats going to be better - duel wield or 1handing - well of course if you add an extra spec in there for 1handed damage your going to get more dps.</blockquote>....Why the hell would you parse 1h without being wisdom specced?</blockquote>Not to mention that he wants you to fight face to face with 1 hander, but have someone taunting so you can fight from behind Dual Wielding.Sounds like a fantastic idea to me.

Moonlance

09-08-2007, 02:17 AM

<cite>Cocytus wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Geakor wrote:</cite><blockquote>That is not a good post and that is completely unfair data. It is when you put in these extra factors that makes things worse.Unspec WIS line and try again. Have no AA's what so ever and see what you get. Either that or Spec the other line that you normal do (STR or AGI) with 1hander and then respec to STR/AGI and have someone taunt the mob so you hit it from behind for Avast Ye.You spec something that is going to increase your damage for one set but not something for the other. You want to know whats going to be better - duel wield or 1handing - well of course if you add an extra spec in there for 1handed damage your going to get more dps.</blockquote>....Why the hell would you parse 1h without being wisdom specced?</blockquote>I think what he was saying is that specing Wis and testing dw while spec'd wis is not fair. To test 1h you have to spec wis/(agi/str), to really test dw you need to spec str/agi. Edit: they really need a way for players on test to change specs as often as necessary to properly test different lineups.

Cocytus

09-08-2007, 08:27 AM

Test server had unlimited respecs last I checked, actually. I specced str/agi for my dual wield tests and attacked the perma-stunned mob...1h was superior.edit - Dual wielding was better for burst DPS, but 1h left it in the dust for sustained dps.

Geakor

09-10-2007, 11:35 AM

<cite>Cocytus wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Geakor wrote:</cite><blockquote>That is not a good post and that is completely unfair data. It is when you put in these extra factors that makes things worse.Unspec WIS line and try again. Have no AA's what so ever and see what you get. Either that or Spec the other line that you normal do (STR or AGI) with 1hander and then respec to STR/AGI and have someone taunt the mob so you hit it from behind for Avast Ye.You spec something that is going to increase your damage for one set but not something for the other. You want to know whats going to be better - duel wield or 1handing - well of course if you add an extra spec in there for 1handed damage your going to get more dps.</blockquote>....Why the hell would you parse 1h without being wisdom specced?</blockquote>Because you want to parse plain 1hander vs. plain duel wielding. You want to see what they do compaired to each other NOT what one does with an extra proc vs. the other. Adding an extra component into the equation does not make things even.

Hamervelder

09-10-2007, 05:09 PM

I did some more testing today. I ran 5 fights with each style, against lvl 66 baselisks in the Bonemore, No combat-arts. Strictly auto-attack.Fencing: Vilucidae's Sword of shielding. Average dps: 649.Dual-wield: Dirk of Negativity and Talonsreach. Average dps: 479.And just for fun, I tried out str/sta, "tank" spec. I parsed a whopping 288.

Hamervelder

09-10-2007, 05:12 PM

<cite>Geakor wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Cocytus wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Geakor wrote:</cite><blockquote>That is not a good post and that is completely unfair data. It is when you put in these extra factors that makes things worse.Unspec WIS line and try again. Have no AA's what so ever and see what you get. Either that or Spec the other line that you normal do (STR or AGI) with 1hander and then respec to STR/AGI and have someone taunt the mob so you hit it from behind for Avast Ye.You spec something that is going to increase your damage for one set but not something for the other. You want to know whats going to be better - duel wield or 1handing - well of course if you add an extra spec in there for 1handed damage your going to get more dps.</blockquote>....Why the hell would you parse 1h without being wisdom specced?</blockquote>Because you want to parse plain 1hander vs. plain duel wielding. You want to see what they do compaired to each other NOT what one does with an extra proc vs. the other. Adding an extra component into the equation does not make things even.</blockquote>And what is the purpose of that? I really don't see what it matters how dual-wield parses vs 1-hand without being widsom spec'd. Not for swashbucklers, or any other scout. The vast majority of us probably do not care at all how 1-handed would parse, without being wisdom spec'd. I certainly don't.

Geakor

09-11-2007, 01:23 PM

<cite>Atelos@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Geakor wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Cocytus wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Geakor wrote:</cite><blockquote>That is not a good post and that is completely unfair data. It is when you put in these extra factors that makes things worse.Unspec WIS line and try again. Have no AA's what so ever and see what you get. Either that or Spec the other line that you normal do (STR or AGI) with 1hander and then respec to STR/AGI and have someone taunt the mob so you hit it from behind for Avast Ye.You spec something that is going to increase your damage for one set but not something for the other. You want to know whats going to be better - duel wield or 1handing - well of course if you add an extra spec in there for 1handed damage your going to get more dps.</blockquote>....Why the hell would you parse 1h without being wisdom specced?</blockquote>Because you want to parse plain 1hander vs. plain duel wielding. You want to see what they do compaired to each other NOT what one does with an extra proc vs. the other. Adding an extra component into the equation does not make things even.</blockquote>And what is the purpose of that? I really don't see what it matters how dual-wield parses vs 1-hand without being widsom spec'd. Not for swashbucklers, or any other scout. The vast majority of us probably do not care at all how 1-handed would parse, without being wisdom spec'd. I certainly don't.</blockquote>Obviously we you don't or you just don't know what 'raw' data is about. That means nothing extra just you and the weapon, that will give you bare minimum DPS with 1hander vs. duel wield. I am lvl 60 now and with Avest Ye on 8 it will proc 16% of the time and proc for 600 something. I go down STR/AGI line and with me vs. a swash (I was 60 and he was 59) we were both equally equiped Master crafted and he had the Bixie sword from TT and I had master crafted weapons on both Adept 3 out I was parsing 100 - 300 higher than him, even more at times. That is just how I roll and I like to be behind the mob more often than not, I hit harder and more often from back there. But as I stated before - with the changes it is the question how will the weapon changes from duel wield to all weapons being 1handed and have more damage but higher dely change the dps of it, NOT how well will your wis line still work with the changes. Scouts are not the only classes in the game mind you, the changes to weapons will affect every class that wields a weapon - which happens to be all of them not just the greedy swashbucklers.

Bramwe

09-11-2007, 01:58 PM

I can understand where this is confusing. Basically did the OP spec Str/Agi when he tested the dual wielding or did he stay Wis specced? He does not say. If not then it isn't fair to say that the one handed Wis spec is better if you just equiped dual wield weapons but stayed Wis specced. That would be like speccing Str/Agi and testing 1 handed weapons vs dual wielding and saying dual wielding is better. If the OP did spec Str/Agi when he tested out dual wielding then it becomes more clear.

Hamervelder

09-11-2007, 06:52 PM

<cite>Geakor wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Atelos@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Geakor wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Cocytus wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Geakor wrote:</cite><blockquote>That is not a good post and that is completely unfair data. It is when you put in these extra factors that makes things worse.Unspec WIS line and try again. Have no AA's what so ever and see what you get. Either that or Spec the other line that you normal do (STR or AGI) with 1hander and then respec to STR/AGI and have someone taunt the mob so you hit it from behind for Avast Ye.You spec something that is going to increase your damage for one set but not something for the other. You want to know whats going to be better - duel wield or 1handing - well of course if you add an extra spec in there for 1handed damage your going to get more dps.</blockquote>....Why the hell would you parse 1h without being wisdom specced?</blockquote>Because you want to parse plain 1hander vs. plain duel wielding. You want to see what they do compaired to each other NOT what one does with an extra proc vs. the other. Adding an extra component into the equation does not make things even.</blockquote>And what is the purpose of that? I really don't see what it matters how dual-wield parses vs 1-hand without being widsom spec'd. Not for swashbucklers, or any other scout. The vast majority of us probably do not care at all how 1-handed would parse, without being wisdom spec'd. I certainly don't.</blockquote>Obviously we you don't or you just don't know what 'raw' data is about. That means nothing extra just you and the weapon, that will give you bare minimum DPS with 1hander vs. duel wield. I am lvl 60 now and with Avest Ye on 8 it will proc 16% of the time and proc for 600 something. I go down STR/AGI line and with me vs. a swash (I was 60 and he was 59) we were both equally equiped Master crafted and he had the Bixie sword from TT and I had master crafted weapons on both Adept 3 out I was parsing 100 - 300 higher than him, even more at times. That is just how I roll and I like to be behind the mob more often than not, I hit harder and more often from back there. But as I stated before - with the changes it is the question how will the weapon changes from duel wield to all weapons being 1handed and have more damage but higher dely change the dps of it, NOT how well will your wis line still work with the changes. Scouts are not the only classes in the game mind you, the changes to weapons will affect every class that wields a weapon - which happens to be all of them not just the greedy swashbucklers.</blockquote>Why are you even posting in the swashbuckler forum? Let us test the changes and see how they apply to swashbucklers, and you go do your thing. 'Raw' data, as you put it, is useless. Why? Because that isn't how you're going to fight. You aren't (unless you're an idiot) going to go out and wield one weapon as a swashbuckler without being wisdom spec'd. Therefore, it . does . not . matter . how one-handed parses unless you're wisdom spec'd. Yes, there are other classes that wield weapons, but thank you for your wisdom there. However, last time I looked, Atelos was a swashbuckler. Leithe was a swashbuckler. How the game affects guardians and assassin and mages is really a bit less relevant to us than how it affects swashbucklers. We are, after all, in the Swashbuckler forum. /shakes head

Vatec

09-11-2007, 07:33 PM

<cite>Geakor wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Cocytus wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Geakor wrote:</cite><blockquote>That is not a good post and that is completely unfair data. It is when you put in these extra factors that makes things worse.Unspec WIS line and try again. Have no AA's what so ever and see what you get. Either that or Spec the other line that you normal do (STR or AGI) with 1hander and then respec to STR/AGI and have someone taunt the mob so you hit it from behind for Avast Ye.You spec something that is going to increase your damage for one set but not something for the other. You want to know whats going to be better - duel wield or 1handing - well of course if you add an extra spec in there for 1handed damage your going to get more dps.</blockquote>....Why the hell would you parse 1h without being wisdom specced?</blockquote>Because you want to parse plain 1hander vs. plain duel wielding. You want to see what they do compaired to each other NOT what one does with an extra proc vs. the other. Adding an extra component into the equation does not make things even.</blockquote>Well, no, because that information is useless in practical terms. Who cares which parses better under those conditions? More to the point, it's =obvious= which one parses better under those conditions. You can just do the math: 100 damage every 3 seconds versus 200 damage every 4 seconds, assuming hit % doesn't change due to dual-wielding.So, in order to get a useful comparison, what you need to do is parse maxed out 1H DPS versus maxed out DW DPS. The first is only achieved by speccing the WIS AA line along with either STR or AGI. The second is probably achieved by speccing STR and AGI. So, for the sake of completeness, it would be nice to see 1H WIS/STR, 1H WIS/AGI, and DW STR/AGI....At least Swashies don't need to deal with the complication of a buckler being tossed into the mix like Warriors do :^P

Cocytus

09-11-2007, 08:00 PM

<cite>Geakor wrote:</cite><blockquote>Obviously we you don't or you just don't know what 'raw' data is about. That means nothing extra just you and the weapon, that will give you bare minimum DPS with 1hander vs. duel wield. I am lvl 60 now and with Avest Ye on 8 it will proc 16% of the time and proc for 600 something. I go down STR/AGI line and with me vs. a swash (I was 60 and he was 59) we were both equally equiped Master crafted and he had the Bixie sword from TT and I had master crafted weapons on both Adept 3 out I was parsing 100 - 300 higher than him, even more at times. That is just how I roll and I like to be behind the mob more often than not, I hit harder and more often from back there. But as I stated before - with the changes it is the question how will the weapon changes from duel wield to all weapons being 1handed and have more damage but higher dely change the dps of it, NOT how well will your wis line still work with the changes. Scouts are not the only classes in the game mind you, the changes to weapons will affect every class that wields a weapon - which happens to be all of them not just the greedy swashbucklers.</blockquote>This is the most mentally handicapped thing I have ever read in my life.

Antas22

09-11-2007, 11:15 PM

<cite>Geakor wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Atelos@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Geakor wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Cocytus wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Geakor wrote:</cite><blockquote>That is not a good post and that is completely unfair data. It is when you put in these extra factors that makes things worse.Unspec WIS line and try again. Have no AA's what so ever and see what you get. Either that or Spec the other line that you normal do (STR or AGI) with 1hander and then respec to STR/AGI and have someone taunt the mob so you hit it from behind for Avast Ye.You spec something that is going to increase your damage for one set but not something for the other. You want to know whats going to be better - duel wield or 1handing - well of course if you add an extra spec in there for 1handed damage your going to get more dps.</blockquote>....Why the hell would you parse 1h without being wisdom specced?</blockquote>Because you want to parse plain 1hander vs. plain duel wielding. You want to see what they do compaired to each other NOT what one does with an extra proc vs. the other. Adding an extra component into the equation does not make things even.</blockquote>And what is the purpose of that? I really don't see what it matters how dual-wield parses vs 1-hand without being widsom spec'd. Not for swashbucklers, or any other scout. The vast majority of us probably do not care at all how 1-handed would parse, without being wisdom spec'd. I certainly don't.</blockquote>Obviously we you don't or you just don't know what 'raw' data is about. That means nothing extra just you and the weapon, that will give you bare minimum DPS with 1hander vs. duel wield. I am lvl 60 now and with Avest Ye on 8 it will proc 16% of the time and proc for 600 something. I go down STR/AGI line and with me vs. a swash (I was 60 and he was 59) we were both equally equiped Master crafted and he had the Bixie sword from TT and I had master crafted weapons on both Adept 3 out I was parsing 100 - 300 higher than him, even more at times. That is just how I roll and I like to be behind the mob more often than not, I hit harder and more often from back there. But as I stated before - with the changes it is the question how will the weapon changes from duel wield to all weapons being 1handed and have more damage but higher dely change the dps of it, NOT how well will your wis line still work with the changes. Scouts are not the only classes in the game mind you, the changes to weapons will affect every class that wields a weapon - which happens to be all of them not just the greedy swashbucklers.</blockquote>Since you feel the need to use me as an example, I'll go ahead and retort: First, you were speced WIS with a fabled 1 hander, kind of kills the entire argument. Secondly, yes, you were peaking higher than me in the parses you bothered to post to say, but I was running parses of my own: zonewide, I beat you by a very narrow margin.As a matter of fact, here's the zonewide parse for our Tables run:Allies: (09:07) 756803 | 1383.55 [Halagad-Surprise Attack-2035]Kalandre 325555 | 595.16Halagad 287763 | 526.08<BRUISER> 141973 | 259.55<INQUIS> 1512 | 2.76Of course, I do give credit where credit is deserved, and you DID peak well:Allies: (00:12) 25619 | 2134.92 [Halagad-Debilitate-1802]Halagad 14989 | 1249.08Kalandre 6430 | 535.83<BRUISER> 4200 | 350.00<INQUIS> 0 | 0.00However, that does not make your argument any more valid. Parsing 1 hander without WIS is as foolish as parsing dual wield WITH it. Both should have the common AA setups (because thats whats being tested here, not the weapons themselves), and be used under the same conditions.For future reference, next time you make a post laced with blatantly false examples, make sure the subject of that post doesn't frequent the forum.

Hamervelder

09-12-2007, 09:15 AM

<cite>Antas@Oasis wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Geakor wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Atelos@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Geakor wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Cocytus wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Geakor wrote:</cite><blockquote>That is not a good post and that is completely unfair data. It is when you put in these extra factors that makes things worse.Unspec WIS line and try again. Have no AA's what so ever and see what you get. Either that or Spec the other line that you normal do (STR or AGI) with 1hander and then respec to STR/AGI and have someone taunt the mob so you hit it from behind for Avast Ye.You spec something that is going to increase your damage for one set but not something for the other. You want to know whats going to be better - duel wield or 1handing - well of course if you add an extra spec in there for 1handed damage your going to get more dps.</blockquote>....Why the hell would you parse 1h without being wisdom specced?</blockquote>Because you want to parse plain 1hander vs. plain duel wielding. You want to see what they do compaired to each other NOT what one does with an extra proc vs. the other. Adding an extra component into the equation does not make things even.</blockquote>And what is the purpose of that? I really don't see what it matters how dual-wield parses vs 1-hand without being widsom spec'd. Not for swashbucklers, or any other scout. The vast majority of us probably do not care at all how 1-handed would parse, without being wisdom spec'd. I certainly don't.</blockquote>Obviously we you don't or you just don't know what 'raw' data is about. That means nothing extra just you and the weapon, that will give you bare minimum DPS with 1hander vs. duel wield. I am lvl 60 now and with Avest Ye on 8 it will proc 16% of the time and proc for 600 something. I go down STR/AGI line and with me vs. a swash (I was 60 and he was 59) we were both equally equiped Master crafted and he had the Bixie sword from TT and I had master crafted weapons on both Adept 3 out I was parsing 100 - 300 higher than him, even more at times. That is just how I roll and I like to be behind the mob more often than not, I hit harder and more often from back there. But as I stated before - with the changes it is the question how will the weapon changes from duel wield to all weapons being 1handed and have more damage but higher dely change the dps of it, NOT how well will your wis line still work with the changes. Scouts are not the only classes in the game mind you, the changes to weapons will affect every class that wields a weapon - which happens to be all of them not just the greedy swashbucklers.</blockquote>Since you feel the need to use me as an example, I'll go ahead and retort: First, you were speced WIS with a fabled 1 hander, kind of kills the entire argument. Secondly, yes, you were peaking higher than me in the parses you bothered to post to say, but I was running parses of my own: zonewide, I beat you by a very narrow margin.As a matter of fact, here's the zonewide parse for our Tables run:Allies: (09:07) 756803 | 1383.55 [Halagad-Surprise Attack-2035]Kalandre 325555 | 595.16Halagad 287763 | 526.08<BRUISER> 141973 | 259.55<INQUIS> 1512 | 2.76Of course, I do give credit where credit is deserved, and you DID peak well:Allies: (00:12) 25619 | 2134.92 [Halagad-Debilitate-1802]Halagad 14989 | 1249.08Kalandre 6430 | 535.83<BRUISER> 4200 | 350.00<INQUIS> 0 | 0.00However, that does not make your argument any more valid. Parsing 1 hander without WIS is as foolish as parsing dual wield WITH it. Both should have the common AA setups (because thats whats being tested here, not the weapons themselves), and be used under the same conditions.For future reference, next time you make a post laced with blatantly false examples, make sure the subject of that post doesn't frequent the forum.</blockquote>Burn!

Geakor

09-12-2007, 02:06 PM

First thing I must say I love this massive quoting.Secondly if you knew how a brig plays half the time I have to save other peoples lives because tanks are really blowing lately with keeping aggro off everyone so I have to sit there and stop others from getting killed, if you don't remember Kal who had aggro during our time in the tables the other day? It wasn't the tank I can tell you that either you or I would get aggro and in those cases I would pull them off of you as quickly as possible. Like yesterday when I spent half the time keeping mobs off our healer rather than dpsing - so you can burn little man. I don't care about being top dps, if I wanted that I would have made tier 1 dps class. I lower mobs abilities well before I care what my dps turns out to be. I would like to know flat out what is going to be better 1handed vs duel wielding. I would think every one would agree that duel weilding should put out more dps rather than using a 1hander and I want to make sure of that. This was the only place where I saw any type of that test going on that is why I posted here, I guess no other class really cares about the changes as swashys do. But testing is over and it is suppose to go live today so I guess we shall see what is going to happen now.And we have grouped more than just the one time in Tables Kal, not to mention I have grouped with a few of you swashy that love to get that bixie sword - and yes that time I was WIS spec'd because I wanted to test it out before the next LU so I can see how things are with duel wield STR/AGI vs 1handed STR/WIS line.

Antas22

09-12-2007, 04:43 PM

<cite>Geakor wrote:</cite><blockquote>First thing I must say I love this massive quoting.Secondly if you knew how a brig plays half the time I have to save other peoples lives because tanks are really blowing lately with keeping aggro off everyone so I have to sit there and stop others from getting killed, if you don't remember Kal who had aggro during our time in the tables the other day? It wasn't the tank I can tell you that either you or I would get aggro and in those cases I would pull them off of you as quickly as possible. Like yesterday when I spent half the time keeping mobs off our healer rather than dpsing - so you can burn little man. I don't care about being top dps, if I wanted that I would have made tier 1 dps class. I lower mobs abilities well before I care what my dps turns out to be. I would like to know flat out what is going to be better 1handed vs duel wielding. I would think every one would agree that duel weilding should put out more dps rather than using a 1hander and I want to make sure of that. This was the only place where I saw any type of that test going on that is why I posted here, I guess no other class really cares about the changes as swashys do. But testing is over and it is suppose to go live today so I guess we shall see what is going to happen now.And we have grouped more than just the one time in Tables Kal, not to mention I have grouped with a few of you swashy that love to get that bixie sword - and yes that time I was WIS spec'd because I wanted to test it out before the next LU so I can see how things are with duel wield STR/AGI vs 1handed STR/WIS line.</blockquote>Okay, let's investigate this. First, I've grouped with you once, and only once. Secondly, I do know Brigs, I WAS one. Thirdly, there are EXACTLY 2 Swashbucklers on Oasis that match the description you put forth, and only ONE has logged since July: me (it's not as though the server is crawling with late t6/early t7 chars). Fourth, not ONCE did the healer get agro in our group. Fourth, I was simply breaking down your very weak argument, not turning this into a DPS competition. If I wanted, I could show you the breakdown of my damage, revealing that only ONCE in the entire run did I use Inspired Daring, if we really want to get into a childish "zomg I wasn't going all out DPS" argument. Finally, don't act like your debuffing is crippling your DPS, Swash are rogues too, in fact, if you recall, I had a little discussion with you before we got started so we could coordinate our debuffs better.I do seem to recall reading several posts from you about "nobody is able to out-DPS me in groups", so I'd say you do care, a bit, about being top DPS. That's not what this argument is about...it's about the extremely lame attempt you made to back up a weak argument using false information. I simply pointed out the falsehoods.

liveja

09-12-2007, 06:48 PM

<cite>Geakor wrote:</cite><blockquote>I would think every one would agree that duel weilding should put out more dps rather than using a 1hander.</blockquote>If that were true, there would be no reason for a 1-hander AA spec. Better DPS for dual wield plus better stats = hands-down better combo, & anyone choosing otherwise would be flatly gimping themselves. So no, I don't think you'll get a whole lot of people agreeing with you.Since very few people of any level are working without AAs, it's silly to talk about the "raw data" of weapons. Simply put, it's just not relevant. What is relevant is one AA spec vs another. This is especially true at anything above 60th level.Good day, sir.

Luk

09-13-2007, 07:03 AM

Time to put my nose into this one.....You should use raw data, this will give you a base line for a one hander/empty off hand and dual wielding, this way you can make sure you have BOTH raw data weapon combos at the same DPS level. Then and only then can you truly compare what each AA spec gives you in terms of DPS boost. You really need to know that both set ups are close to the same base DPS to make an accurate assessment as to which is better.

Hamervelder

09-13-2007, 09:34 AM

Duskwo

09-13-2007, 10:26 AM

i get more dps out of str/agi than i do outta str/wis, or str/sta. And tbh a ton of it comes from that pirate stab. I figured 16%, hey its not gonna go off much. . . but man does it!So heres a question, does EACH HIT have a 16% chance to trigger it? if so two weapons seems like it would trigger way more often then agi spec with one. I luff the pirate stab . . .

Geakor

09-13-2007, 10:49 AM

I have grouped with you more than once because I asked you 'where you got the bixie sword' because I wanted one. But that is besides the point.I don't know if this matters to you guys but on brigand forum they say YES STR/WIS line is the highest dps line you can go down, WHEN you have the appropriate weapon ie t7/8 fabled 1handers along with appropriate buffs. But as non raiders go that do not get these great fabled weapons duel wield STR/AGI line is the best for you; at least for brigands.OH also I saw a buff on a swash the other day that I did not know that you had - Hurrican? Which adept I has 38% chance of primary weapon auto attacking mobs infront of you, this DOES make STR / WIS better for you than it would a Brig. MY BAD someone could have told me about this skill. Dang swashies.

Vatec

09-13-2007, 11:24 AM

<cite>Lukia wrote:</cite><blockquote>Time to put my nose into this one.....You should use raw data, this will give you a base line for a one hander/empty off hand and dual wielding, this way you can make sure you have BOTH raw data weapon combos at the same DPS level. Then and only then can you truly compare what each AA spec gives you in terms of DPS boost. You really need to know that both set ups are close to the same base DPS to make an accurate assessment as to which is better.</blockquote>While gathering the baseline data for comparison purposes might make good sense from a statistical viewpoint, in this discussion it's irrelevant.A. This isn't a job. No one has the =duty= to gather this sort of information for everyone else's edification and amusement.B. The baseline data is pretty much irrelevant unless you suspect something isn't working properly. If DW isn't outparsing 1H when there are no AAs involved, something is horribly broken. And if DW is outparsing 1H, then that's not terribly interesting information.C. What most people =care= about is whether or not a DW Swashbuckler trying to maximize DPS is comparable to a 1H Swashbuckler trying to maximize DPS. Once those numbers are known, we can then decide whether or not the extra DPS from the WIS line balance out the loss of stats from giving up the second weapon.

Geakor

09-13-2007, 01:47 PM

<cite>Vatec wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Lukia wrote:</cite><blockquote>Time to put my nose into this one.....You should use raw data, this will give you a base line for a one hander/empty off hand and dual wielding, this way you can make sure you have BOTH raw data weapon combos at the same DPS level. Then and only then can you truly compare what each AA spec gives you in terms of DPS boost. You really need to know that both set ups are close to the same base DPS to make an accurate assessment as to which is better.</blockquote>While gathering the baseline data for comparison purposes might make good sense from a statistical viewpoint, in this discussion it's irrelevant.A. This isn't a job. No one has the =duty= to gather this sort of information for everyone else's edification and amusement.B. The baseline data is pretty much irrelevant unless you suspect something isn't working properly. If DW isn't outparsing 1H when there are no AAs involved, something is horribly broken. And if DW is outparsing 1H, then that's not terribly interesting information.C. What most people =care= about is whether or not a DW Swashbuckler trying to maximize DPS is comparable to a 1H Swashbuckler trying to maximize DPS. Once those numbers are known, we can then decide whether or not the extra DPS from the WIS line balance out the loss of stats from giving up the second weapon.</blockquote>I am very happy someone can put things into the words that I was trying to say but couldn't get accross. While others were trying to mock me about what I was trying to this is what I was trying to say.DW with nothing extra should infact beat 1handed damage (thats the point) and with these changes with LU38 things are much different and if DW infact is not beating 1handed damage then we have a problem. Thank you Vatec.

Kair

09-13-2007, 03:25 PM

I hope I can be forgiven for this...but 1h should do better damage to make up for the loss of off hand stats, if it does not why even look at the WIS line. For the longest time I could not see ?/wis for what it really was and I was one of the ones who argued that dw should always be the best of dps. But the more I looked at my swashbucklers progression and abilities I finally saw the real beauty of 1h.I am not suggesting that 1h be uber but there should be a give and take between dual wield and 1h. We should all be working together not attacking eachother afterall we all play the swashbuckler class because we love to do it.

Geakor

09-13-2007, 03:40 PM

I believe it should be DW that does better damage, that would be the point of carrying around two weapons rather than one. using a 1hander should do more damage per hit, but with DW you should do more damage faster and over all due to more weapon swings. People look at the WIS line for the massive double attack that you get from it and not to mention lunge reversal is pretty sweet. But as I stated from the previous post with an uber enough 1hander and the correct buffs apparently you do massive damage with WIS line, swash also have a auto attack to multi mobs in front of them that seems to be pretty nice, my berzerker has that and it is WONDERFUL for some mass damage.But think about it what is going to do more harm to you - one stab or two stabs? If SoE was nice they would give us an extra deflection from carrying duel wield as that is another intended use for duel wielding.

Bramwe

09-13-2007, 04:58 PM

<cite>Geakor wrote:</cite><blockquote>I believe it should be DW that does better damage, that would be the point of carrying around two weapons rather than one. using a 1hander should do more damage per hit, but with DW you should do more damage faster and over all due to more weapon swings. People look at the WIS line for the massive double attack that you get from it and not to mention lunge reversal is pretty sweet. </blockquote>I agree. Otherwise AA's aside a dps may as well throw on a 1 hander and shield and do more damage than DW.

Vatec

09-13-2007, 08:08 PM

If it's working properly it should be: 1H + WIS > DW > 1H + shieldLook at it this way: 1H + shield has the best defense and gets bonuses from two items; DW loses the defense but still get two sets of bonuses; 1H + WIS =also= loses the defense and loses the extra set of stats besides.So, the path that gives up the most should be compensated with better DPS.Compare this to the situation Warriors face, where the STA(?) AA line lets them do as much damage as DW and still keep a buckler for defense. That situation is clearly unbalanced....

Steve11418

09-13-2007, 10:04 PM

I have a few questions:DW now has more room for improvement with haste now?Does poison proc from both weapons but only off your main hand? So your main hand procs's twice effectively?Can poison proc when you double attack.I switched to DW last night as I love my VSS to much... so now rolling with SOD legendary Sabre and VSSLast night in Freethinkers Passed 2200 Zone wide... I was 3000+ on trash when temp buffs where up.Group was Pally, Defiler, Templar, Warden, Dirge, Swashy... (Was MT group)My AA setup is STR/AGI, Poison/Reach (Sabre/VSS)Before respect was passing about 1500-1800 zone wide AA setup was AGI/WIS, Reach/Style (VSS)

liveja

09-14-2007, 10:34 AM

<cite>Vatec wrote:</cite><blockquote>If it's working properly it should be: 1H + WIS > DW > 1H + shieldLook at it this way: 1H + shield has the best defense and gets bonuses from two items; DW loses the defense but still get two sets of bonuses; 1H + WIS =also= loses the defense and loses the extra set of stats besides.So, the path that gives up the most should be compensated with better DPS.</blockquote>QFE, relevant text bolded & super-sized for convenience.This point has been made at least once in this thread already, so I kinda-sorta fail to see why Geakor is still arguing otherwise.

Geothe

09-14-2007, 10:46 AM

"Look at it this way: 1H + shield has the best defense and gets bonuses from two items; DW loses the defense but still get two sets of bonuses; 1H + WIS =also= loses the defense and loses the extra set of stats besides."Actually, DWing gives up more Defensive abilities than 1hander + Wis, hehe.Wis 3 (I believe?) gives 8% (or 4%?) Riposte, which is pure uncontested avoidance. Not to mention the extra little +16 Defense from Coule.Just thought I would point that out <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />Steve:Poison only procs off main hand attacks.Poison does not proc off the second attack on a double attack. -NOTHING- procs on the second attack of the double attack, the second attack just has a chance to crit, that is the only "bonus" it will ever receieve.

Vatec

09-14-2007, 11:51 AM

<cite>Geothe wrote:</cite><blockquote>"Look at it this way: 1H + shield has the best defense and gets bonuses from two items; DW loses the defense but still get two sets of bonuses; 1H + WIS =also= loses the defense and loses the extra set of stats besides."Actually, DWing gives up more Defensive abilities than 1hander + Wis, hehe.Wis 3 (I believe?) gives 8% (or 4%?) Riposte, which is pure uncontested avoidance. Not to mention the extra little +16 Defense from Coule.Just thought I would point that out <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />" />Steve:Poison only procs off main hand attacks.Poison does not proc off the second attack on a double attack. -NOTHING- procs on the second attack of the double attack, the second attack just has a chance to crit, that is the only "bonus" it will ever receieve.</blockquote>Fair enough. So I guess the question is, is that uncontested avoidance enough to make up for the loss of stats and other useful bonuses from a shield or second weapon? If it is, then DW should probably parse higher. If it isn't, 1H+WIS should. And if it's unclear, they should probably parse about the same....

SantiagoDraco

09-14-2007, 12:09 PM

Isn't this thread about parsing the actually differences between DW and 1h dps? So how about less chatter and more actual relevant testing numbers. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />With proper AAs and identical buff and poison setups, over time, against the same mobs. Someone get with it!

Hamervelder

09-14-2007, 02:19 PM

More testing todayAll of the following tests were performed exactly the same. I opened with Lung Puncture to cripple the target's offensive capabilities, and then followed strictly with auto-attack until the mob was dead. I was using Grandmaster's Caustic Poison. The only things that changed were the weapons used for the tests, and my AA spec when I switched to dual-wield. I relied on weapons that I copied over with me from the live server, rather than purchase weapons from the vendor. I felt this was more indicative of what Atelos may actually parse, rather than rely on weapons that I will not pheasably be aquiring in the near future. I tested each weapon (or combination of weapons) five times, which are listed below. I have also listed the average dps of those five fights in italics beneath the parses.*****ONE-HANDED*****Spec:STR-4-6-5-8-1WIS-4-6-4-8-1Poison: Grandmaster's Causticone-handed, Vilicudae's Sword of Shielding:563.85702.88818.86539.91710.12-------667.12 Avg DPSOne-handed, Dirk of Negativity806.11830.71724.28816.17772.19-------789.29 Avg DPSOne-handed, Right Hand of the High Priestess724.09691.51642.08537.23831.50-------685.28 Avg DPSOne-handed, Oblivion's Edge599.46602.49839.46747.19625.14-------682.75 Avg DPSOne-handed, Talon's Reach596.44779.50858.74858.04599.15-------738.37 Avg DPSClear Winner: Dirk of Negativity. Avg DPS: 789.29Clear Loser: Vilicudae's Sword of Shielding. Avg DPS: 667.12Note: This really surprised me. I thought VSS would be at the top of the list.*****DUAL-WIELD*****Spec:STR-4-6-5-8-1AGI-4-6-4-8-1Poison: Grandmaster's CausticDual-Wield, Dirk of Negativity and Talon's Reach726.75802.48745.61684.41727.72-------737.39Dual-Wield, Dirk of Negativity and Vilicudae's Sword of Shielding706.73725.84746.00753.90703.18-------727.13Dual-wield, Dirk of Negativity and Oblivion's Edge642.75771.32756.19741.75647.67-------711.94Dual-Wield, Right Hand of the High Priestess and Oblivion's Edge724.44552.40660.23750.65594.82-------656.51Clear Winner: Dirk of Negativity and Talon's Reach. Avg DPS: 737.39Clear Loser: Right Hand... and Oblivion's Edge. Avg DPS: 656.51One-hand winner: Dirk of Negativity. Avg DPS 789.29Dual-wield winner: Dirk of Negativity and Talon's Reach. Avg DPS 737.39Overall difference: One-handed spec yielded approx 7% overall greater dps than dual-wield.I ran out of time, and so could not test any more dual-wield combinations, but as you can see, based solely on the testing I did, Being STR/WIS spec'd, and using one weapon, provided me with more dps. Is the apparent 7% advantage in dps worth the loss of stats and bonuses from the 2nd weapon? That is for you to interpret.

Bramwe

09-14-2007, 02:42 PM

I wonder what Avast Ye 16% would have been able to do had you been behind the mob at all times since I assume no CA's meant no getting behind or flanking the mob. Nice data though. It is nice to see someone have some actual data and have it nice and organized.

SantiagoDraco

09-14-2007, 06:46 PM

That's a pretty important comparator Bramwell. Personally I care much less about my solo dps than I do raid dps, and raid DPS is typically behind or flanking. I'd assume that this would either make the comparison on par or better for DW, but without statistics that's just an assumption.Frankly I'm suprised that the DW lost to 1h, and I wonder how much of a difference the weapons used makes overall. A complete raids worth of parsing would probably be best.

intensive

09-14-2007, 06:56 PM

I dont have the raw data broken out per fight, but I do have the data seperated by weapons and AA choice.Tests were done with 50 kills each of the exact same mob in TT on breading grounds, 62^^^ with Guardian tank and nothing else. Combat arts combination was exactly the same over all 50 fights, done with Macro for testing purposes. Inspiration was not used at all for these tests, short timer buffs were also not used. I had 94 Haste and 33 DPS mod self buffed with 712 STR. I was behind the mob on all 50 fights for all testing with each combination. One Handed:STR-4-6-5-8-1WIS-4-6-4-8-1Poison: Grandmaster's Caustic Ignorant BlissSoulfire Gladius1406 DPS averaged over 50 fightsDual WieldSTR-4-6-5-8-1AGI-4-6-4-8-1Poison: Grandmaster's Caustic Ignorant BlissSoulfire Gladius Rigth Hand of the high Priestess1378 DPS averaged over 50 fightsSoulfire Gladius Ancient Vorpal Blade1389 DPS averaged over 50 fightsThe biggest thing that I noticed on every fight was that the burst DPS from Dual Wielding was far greater than the One Handed, in the first 5 seconds of every fight while Dual Wielding, the DPS was much higher than one hander, but tapered off over the course of the fight. All of my Procs fired at the start of the fight when Dual Wielding.My assupmtion is that in a raid setup with much higher haste the parse form Dual Wielding would be even clooser to the one hander or pass it by some number. These parses are so close, that whichever way you choose to wield should yield relatively close results to the other way, Weapon choice makes a big difference, and the delay of each weapon with the penalty makes a big difference.All of the above testing was done in group only with no buffs.On raid in EH I had the following results: Trash mobs, 15 mobs each (solo mobs) very good raid group with average haste 200 average dps 150 One hander - Soulfire Sabre - avg dps was 1981DW Soulfire sabre Right Hand of the High Priestess - avg DPS was 2356With really high haste DW with STR AGI will yield higher DPS but a pretty high margin.

Hamervelder

09-14-2007, 07:21 PM

<cite>SantiagoDraco wrote:</cite><blockquote>That's a pretty important comparator Bramwell. Personally I care much less about my solo dps than I do raid dps, and raid DPS is typically behind or flanking. I'd assume that this would either make the comparison on par or better for DW, but without statistics that's just an assumption.Frankly I'm suprised that the DW lost to 1h, and I wonder how much of a difference the weapons used makes overall. A complete raids worth of parsing would probably be best. </blockquote>The weapons used probably makes a massive difference. I'm going to log back on to test in a bit and see if the parse mobs have respawned yet. They'd be a much better indicator of actual combat dps. I have to say that I'm actually disappointed that DW (in my case anyway) came out so close to 1H+Wis. For the amount of stats you give up, 1H+Wis should be the clear cut winner. If we're talking T7 fabled weapons, that can be +25 or more to several stats, as well as 100 health and power. For that kind of sacrifice, 1H+Wis should be compensated by having quite a bit more dps potential.

Geakor

09-15-2007, 11:35 AM

Nice thanks for the posts all now were getting some where. First thing I wanted to find out was rather or not SoE had their math right with DW out dpsing 1handers like it should be - if not then things would be off anyways regardless of any AA's.I finally hit 62 and not raiding yet so I am master crafted all the way through and with DW setup I was getting around 700 - 1000 dps on 60 - 65 mobs with Monk/Inquis/Assassin/Me(brigand). I haven't been parsing myself it was the monk but I will do some myself then go back to WIS spec'd and parse that as well and let you know (and on the brig boards as things are a bit different for swashies) but it will still give a few more stats. SoE has messed up a lot of things for other scouts (poor rangers) but I will be danged if they are going to mess up brigs or their good counter part the swashies.

Hamervelder

09-15-2007, 04:25 PM

<cite>Geakor wrote:</cite><blockquote>Nice thanks for the posts all now were getting some where. First thing I wanted to find out was rather or not SoE had their math right with DW out dpsing 1handers like it should be - if not then things would be off anyways regardless of any AA's.I finally hit 62 and not raiding yet so I am master crafted all the way through and with DW setup I was getting around 700 - 1000 dps on 60 - 65 mobs with Monk/Inquis/Assassin/Me(brigand). I haven't been parsing myself it was the monk but I will do some myself then go back to WIS spec'd and parse that as well and let you know (and on the brig boards as things are a bit different for swashies) but it will still give a few more stats. SoE has messed up a lot of things for other scouts (poor rangers) but I will be danged if they are going to mess up brigs or their good counter part the swashies.</blockquote>Are you reading the posts at all? Dual wield isn't outparsing one-handed. 1HS+Wis is still the way to go for dps according to all available data. As it should be. If dual-wield allowed you to do more dps than 1HS+Wis, then what would be the point of the Wis line? There wouldn't be any point.

Maelyen Mindmolestor

09-16-2007, 01:24 PM

Okay this seems like a relative topic to post this in instead of creating a new thread so...Currently I am running with 2x Infirmity (73.0 damage rating, 1.6 dly, 800 damage proc over 12 seconds) AA spec'd Str/Agi KoS trees with Reachs/Debuffs for EoF trees. Would there be any benefit for me to switch over to 1H spec using just one Infirmity? From what I can see there are no benny's for a 1H spec with my setup seeing as 1H double attack will not proc the weapon and double attack will. (If I can understand this correctly, if I'm wrong please correct me). Any feedback is appreciated, thanks <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Maelyen Mindmolestor

09-16-2007, 01:24 PM

Kair

09-16-2007, 01:36 PM

The basics of getting the most out of ?/wis is using a slow wean delay because you will hit harder. Weapon speeds of 1.6 or lower will not get full benefits of haste. My build is str/wis in KOS and Reach/Style in EOF it will take a while before finding the right weapon to make the most out of the wisdom tree. That is dual wield is slightly more viable because you will not be as picky on the weapons you use as you will need to be for the 1 h spec.

setesh

09-16-2007, 02:46 PM

<blockquote>Are you reading the posts at all? Dual wield isn't outparsing one-handed. 1HS+Wis is still the way to go for dps according to all available data. As it should be. If dual-wield allowed you to do more dps than 1HS+Wis, then what would be the point of the Wis line? There wouldn't be any point.</blockquote>A lot of people see the 1H + WIS spec only in terms of the offhand stats that are sacrificed and conclude that superior DPS is required to compensate for that loss. The significant advantage to this spec that people often overlook is the fact that you only need to obtain one quality weapon to make it work. It is, in fact, a sort of poor man's damage spec, and from that point of view it's no so obvious that it should do more damage.

Vatec

09-16-2007, 02:56 PM

<cite>Atelos@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Geakor wrote:</cite><blockquote>Nice thanks for the posts all now were getting some where. First thing I wanted to find out was rather or not SoE had their math right with DW out dpsing 1handers like it should be - if not then things would be off anyways regardless of any AA's.I finally hit 62 and not raiding yet so I am master crafted all the way through and with DW setup I was getting around 700 - 1000 dps on 60 - 65 mobs with Monk/Inquis/Assassin/Me(brigand). I haven't been parsing myself it was the monk but I will do some myself then go back to WIS spec'd and parse that as well and let you know (and on the brig boards as things are a bit different for swashies) but it will still give a few more stats. SoE has messed up a lot of things for other scouts (poor rangers) but I will be danged if they are going to mess up brigs or their good counter part the swashies.</blockquote>Are you reading the posts at all? Dual wield isn't outparsing one-handed. 1HS+Wis is still the way to go for dps according to all available data. As it should be. If dual-wield allowed you to do more dps than 1HS+Wis, then what would be the point of the Wis line? There wouldn't be any point.</blockquote>If you read Geakor's posts, he's talking baseline with no AAs. DW =should= be outparsing 1H under those conditions. That's the reason Geakor wanted =baseline= numbers: he was afraid that 1H with no AA might be outparsing DW with no AA. Once he's convinced that it's "working properly" with no AAs, then he's going to check to see if adding the WIS line makes 1H+WIS the best choice. I think he's being overly cautious, but then again, it's his time to spend testing these things, so....

Steve11418

09-16-2007, 10:03 PM

I agree you do lose some stats going 1hr / Wis line but you also gain +Slash, Pierce and crush plus defence and riposte.Don't have hard numbers but from what I have found... If I DW and I am not receiving any +Slash Pierce buffs I will pass lower than 1hr as my hit chance will be around 70%... as opposed to WIS spec my hit chance will be closer to 90%If however DWing in a group with say a guard and dirge... DW will be equal to 1hr as both specs will be hitting 90%This as always means that the specs are highly gear and group dependant. You cannot compare them both without taking that into consideration.1 hr in my opinion is much more self reliant DPS build... DW is more variable with your group and gear makeup... in optimal conditions passing more with DW.The post from "intensive" puts them as almost identical... that's because a guard buffs Slash / Pierce reducing the benefits of the end line ability in WIS against DW when he was on breading grounds.... And in EH with a great raid setup with maxed haste the DW coming out on top as DW benefits more from haste now as the DR has been tailored to a 33% slower attack speed... 200% haste can effectively remove this restriction.Str / WisSoulfire 4 sec delay 1hr + 200% haste = 1.33 delayAbove when spamming CA effective delay is 2.0 secStr / AgiDW 4 sec + 33% delay + 200% haste = 1.77 delay Above when spamming CA effective delay is 1.8 sec (due to sailwind)

Hamervelder

09-17-2007, 01:41 AM

<cite>Vatec wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Atelos@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Geakor wrote:</cite><blockquote>Nice thanks for the posts all now were getting some where. First thing I wanted to find out was rather or not SoE had their math right with DW out dpsing 1handers like it should be - if not then things would be off anyways regardless of any AA's.I finally hit 62 and not raiding yet so I am master crafted all the way through and with DW setup I was getting around 700 - 1000 dps on 60 - 65 mobs with Monk/Inquis/Assassin/Me(brigand). I haven't been parsing myself it was the monk but I will do some myself then go back to WIS spec'd and parse that as well and let you know (and on the brig boards as things are a bit different for swashies) but it will still give a few more stats. SoE has messed up a lot of things for other scouts (poor rangers) but I will be danged if they are going to mess up brigs or their good counter part the swashies.</blockquote>Are you reading the posts at all? Dual wield isn't outparsing one-handed. 1HS+Wis is still the way to go for dps according to all available data. As it should be. If dual-wield allowed you to do more dps than 1HS+Wis, then what would be the point of the Wis line? There wouldn't be any point.</blockquote>If you read Geakor's posts, he's talking baseline with no AAs. DW =should= be outparsing 1H under those conditions. That's the reason Geakor wanted =baseline= numbers: he was afraid that 1H with no AA might be outparsing DW with no AA. Once he's convinced that it's "working properly" with no AAs, then he's going to check to see if adding the WIS line makes 1H+WIS the best choice. I think he's being overly cautious, but then again, it's his time to spend testing these things, so....</blockquote>I know he is. The issue is, "baseline" damage is irrelevant. *shrugs* to each his own, I guess.

Vatec

09-17-2007, 02:47 AM

<cite>Atelos@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Vatec wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Atelos@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Geakor wrote:</cite><blockquote>Nice thanks for the posts all now were getting some where. First thing I wanted to find out was rather or not SoE had their math right with DW out dpsing 1handers like it should be - if not then things would be off anyways regardless of any AA's.I finally hit 62 and not raiding yet so I am master crafted all the way through and with DW setup I was getting around 700 - 1000 dps on 60 - 65 mobs with Monk/Inquis/Assassin/Me(brigand). I haven't been parsing myself it was the monk but I will do some myself then go back to WIS spec'd and parse that as well and let you know (and on the brig boards as things are a bit different for swashies) but it will still give a few more stats. SoE has messed up a lot of things for other scouts (poor rangers) but I will be danged if they are going to mess up brigs or their good counter part the swashies.</blockquote>Are you reading the posts at all? Dual wield isn't outparsing one-handed. 1HS+Wis is still the way to go for dps according to all available data. As it should be. If dual-wield allowed you to do more dps than 1HS+Wis, then what would be the point of the Wis line? There wouldn't be any point.</blockquote>If you read Geakor's posts, he's talking baseline with no AAs. DW =should= be outparsing 1H under those conditions. That's the reason Geakor wanted =baseline= numbers: he was afraid that 1H with no AA might be outparsing DW with no AA. Once he's convinced that it's "working properly" with no AAs, then he's going to check to see if adding the WIS line makes 1H+WIS the best choice. I think he's being overly cautious, but then again, it's his time to spend testing these things, so....</blockquote>I know he is. The issue is, "baseline" damage is irrelevant. *shrugs* to each his own, I guess.</blockquote>Baseline damage is irrelevant =if= you assume that everything is "working as intended." But if it turns out that something is broken (1H with no AAs is outparsing DW), then it's pretty significant. Frankly, I've seen no evidence that there's a problem, so I don't we need baseline data. But I =am= making an assumption there.

InomaeDarkheart

09-17-2007, 07:20 AM

[Removed for Content] i wish i hadn't shut down act before saving parses. Well to make long story short the day of GU 38 i went ahead and respeced my swash to dw str/agi line, well since i wanted to test it out and also my raid guild has another swash currently doing 1hr wis/agi spec. So i figured at least it be a nice little experiment. Like i said, i wish i had the parse for proof and review. We did chel'drak first. With 1hr i never hit parse, with dw i managed to scrape little above 1k, where the other swash did not hit parse at all. Bad raid to base on right? So we go to next one, Same thing as we go into clock, i barely made zonwide parse, he did not.So then we hit MMIS. This is what i was waiting for. longer zone, more mobs, not all the crazy [Removed for Content] adds all over the place. Perfect for hurricane. Both myself and the other 1hand speced swash do not have same gear, but are pretty equally geared up overall. He was using Soulfire gladius, and i was using Ancient Vorpal blade in primary and ancient vellium rapier in secondary... I was checking parses as raid progressed and was very confused. One prase i'd be around 1.7k he wouldn't have made top. next parse he'd make 1.7k and i would not have. What i was really waiting on was zonewide because of the flucuation and difference in spec, gear and possible CA rotations... So we get through zone, get the whole parse and for the two swashes in test we were about even for zone wide parse. dw was seriously about 20 points lower then dw. But at least mayong didn't throw those [Removed for Content] aoes as fast. <shrugs> very un-accurate data, i know, but i thought it was an interesting outcome, and true story to share on this post. Since then i have tried other things, such as swapping other weapons in primary, secondary. Timing CAs, spamming CAs different gear, proc gear. So maybe someone or myself can get some real time action parses in here from two swashes 1 dw and the other one handed. cause, where's the parse really count and show? level 66 basalisks or on a raid?

quasigenx

09-17-2007, 01:58 PM

Since going dual wield, I have noticed the following differences in my parse:1. STR/WIS (SoD): 43% of my total damage is auto-attack.2. STR/AGI: (SoD + Shadow Axe): 39% of my total damage is auto-attack.BUT You can tack on a full 10% for the proc on the AGI line. As far as I'm concerned, that 49/43 in favor of dual wield.I think it's very weapon dependent. If I got a nice EoF fabled one hander, I would probably switch back to STR/WIS, at least until I got TWO nice one. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Hamervelder

09-17-2007, 02:43 PM

<cite>Padrich@Kithicor wrote:</cite><blockquote>[I cannot control my vocabulary] i wish i hadn't shut down act before saving parses. Well to make long story short the day of GU 38 i went ahead and respeced my swash to dw str/agi line, well since i wanted to test it out and also my raid guild has another swash currently doing 1hr wis/agi spec. So i figured at least it be a nice little experiment. Like i said, i wish i had the parse for proof and review. We did chel'drak first. With 1hr i never hit parse, with dw i managed to scrape little above 1k, where the other swash did not hit parse at all. Bad raid to base on right? So we go to next one, Same thing as we go into clock, i barely made zonwide parse, he did not.So then we hit MMIS. This is what i was waiting for. longer zone, more mobs, not all the crazy [I cannot control my vocabulary] adds all over the place. Perfect for hurricane. Both myself and the other 1hand speced swash do not have same gear, but are pretty equally geared up overall. He was using Soulfire gladius, and i was using Ancient Vorpal blade in primary and ancient vellium rapier in secondary... I was checking parses as raid progressed and was very confused. One prase i'd be around 1.7k he wouldn't have made top. next parse he'd make 1.7k and i would not have. What i was really waiting on was zonewide because of the flucuation and difference in spec, gear and possible CA rotations... So we get through zone, get the whole parse and for the two swashes in test we were about even for zone wide parse. dw was seriously about 20 points lower then dw. But at least mayong didn't throw those [I cannot control my vocabulary] aoes as fast. <shrugs> very un-accurate data, i know, but i thought it was an interesting outcome, and true story to share on this post. Since then i have tried other things, such as swapping other weapons in primary, secondary. Timing CAs, spamming CAs different gear, proc gear. So maybe someone or myself can get some real time action parses in here from two swashes 1 dw and the other one handed. cause, where's the parse really count and show? level 66 basalisks or on a raid?</blockquote>A couple of things:1 -- You may or may not be aware of just how important your group make-up is when raiding. Any swashbuckler who says he's parsing more than about 1.2k in MMIS self-buffed, is full of brown stuff. Perhaps the reason you hadn't been making parse before was the group you were in. If you can get in with a coercer, dirge, and fury, life will be good. But if you don't have a lot of beneficial buffs on you, your dps is going to stink.2 -- I think the parse counts when it gives you the information you've been looking for. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img mce_tsrc=" />" />EDIT. The following data is completely useless and irrelevant, but posted so that certain individuals can be happy. You have been warned.I did some quick testing on TestPVP. No AA's. No buffs. Nothing but me and my weapons and the badguy. I repeat. No buffs. No AA's. Nothing. (This is to satisfy the obsessive-compulsive types who MUST have baseline data and cannot seem to get it themselves, for some strange reason). Stats: -- Strength was 498. No buffs, remember. -- Melee crit chance was 7%. -- No haste. -- 10% dps mod.1st contender: Dirk of Negativity.197.29205.26192.58202.35165.04Average: 192.52nd contender: Oblivion's Edge, and Brakzar's Cleaver. Note: I chose these weapons because they have the same delay.265.27212.46199.84254.54229.21Average: 232.26Difference: Approx 20% overall in favor of the dual-wield spec.There. Now those of you who simply insist on the importance of "baseline" data, but for whatever reason cannot seem to gather it yourselves, have it. Oh, and look... dual-wield outparsed one-handed. Now you can be doubly happy. Good day.

Vatec

09-20-2007, 11:29 AM

<cite>Atelos@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>//SNIP//</cite>Difference: Approx 20% overall in favor of the dual-wield spec.There. Now those of you who simply insist on the importance of "baseline" data, but for whatever reason cannot seem to gather it yourselves, have it. Oh, and look... dual-wield outparsed one-handed. Now you can be doubly happy. Good day.</blockquote>Erm, thanks, I guess. Although in all fairness I'll point out that I said we didn't need baseline data. Only Geakor felt we did. And Geakor said he was collecting the data. So, um, I never insisted on baseline data and Geakor was gathering it himself. So I'm not sure who, exactly, this comment is for....That being said, thanks for taking the time to gather the data. I'm glad to see that things are actually "working as intended" for once....

DngrMou

09-20-2007, 04:55 PM

This has made for a very interesting read. Thanks to everyone that's added something. But has the jury come back with a verdict yet?I've seen a slight improvement in my DW damage....and it's not something I can say with absolute authority comes from DW changes with GU38. I don't yet have a decent one hander to play with, so I'm saving my 3 remaining respecs until I do.There's a thread in the Ranger forum, where I'm seeing claims of DPS increases of up to 600. I think I would have noticed a jump of that magnitude. I did'nt. Has anyone seen increases like this? Or anything close?Is 1hr still the way to go? Str/Wis, or Agi/Wis?

Bramwe

09-20-2007, 05:50 PM

Looks like if you are tempted to go Dual Wield you might want to hold off or maybe switch to dual wield for awhile. This is what a dev in that ranger thread had to say.<cite>Aeralik wrote:</cite><blockquote>Unfortunately it appears the dual wielders got an extra unintended bonus. This really shows up with poisons and a high delay mainhand. It then gets compounded further with dirge and templar proc buffs on a raid. I have a fix in for it although no eta on when that will arrive other than soon(tm).</blockquote>So, if you have the right weapons...enjoy it for awhile I guess <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

DngrMou

09-20-2007, 05:54 PM

<cite>Bramwell@Guk wrote:</cite><blockquote>Looks like if you are tempted to go Dual Wield you might want to hold off or maybe switch to dual wield for awhile. This is what a dev in that ranger thread had to say.<cite>Aeralik wrote:</cite><blockquote>Unfortunately it appears the dual wielders got an extra unintended bonus. This really shows up with poisons and a high delay mainhand. It then gets compounded further with dirge and templar proc buffs on a raid. I have a fix in for it although no eta on when that will arrive other than soon(tm).</blockquote>So, if you have the right weapons...enjoy it for awhile I guess <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />" width="15" height="15" /></blockquote>Case closed! I'll continue my search for the perfect one-hander, and respec str/wis when I finally get my grubby little hands on it.

Arkari

09-21-2007, 03:38 PM

So basically the [Removed for Content] couldn't keep their mouths shut, eh?

Cocytus

09-21-2007, 05:34 PM

I actually was not aware of this "bug" (for lack of a more accurate word, I guess?), or unintended bonus..Whatever it'll be called. Which is why I was sticking by what I said about onehanding still being better. My testing was never done in groups with proc mods.Anyway...Once the "Fix" is in, I'll be right :p

Hamervelder

09-22-2007, 01:46 AM

<cite>Bramwell@Guk wrote:</cite><blockquote>Looks like if you are tempted to go Dual Wield you might want to hold off or maybe switch to dual wield for awhile. This is what a dev in that ranger thread had to say.<cite>Aeralik wrote:</cite><blockquote>Unfortunately it appears the dual wielders got an extra unintended bonus. This really shows up with poisons and a high delay mainhand. It then gets compounded further with dirge and templar proc buffs on a raid. I have a fix in for it although no eta on when that will arrive other than soon(tm).</blockquote>So, if you have the right weapons...enjoy it for awhile I guess <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />" /></blockquote>I wasn't aware of that. Well, I guess I'm glad that I haven't respec'd to dual-wield then.