MANASHIELD must put you in combat

[Elephanton]

<p>It is no different from any other wards (like shamans wards).</p><p>Takes time to cast - check, uses mana - check, absorbs damage - check.</p><p>Why it is not putting in combat then?</p>

[Cyst]

I'll check, but I'm pretty sure it puts my Warlock into combat.

[Elephanton]

<cite>Demron wrote:</cite><blockquote>I'll check, but I'm pretty sure it puts my Warlock into combat.</blockquote>Please double check, because my friend reported that it does not put him in combat.

[Tae]

<cite>Demron wrote:</cite><blockquote>I'll check, but I'm pretty sure it puts my Warlock into combat.</blockquote>Ahoc attacked me in the Barren Sky. I put on manashield and ran to the pad, and flew off. Didn't put me in combat, or I wouldn't have been able to fly.

[Cyst]

Taear@Venekor wrote: <blockquote><cite>Demron wrote:</cite><blockquote>I'll check, but I'm pretty sure it puts my Warlock into combat.</blockquote>Ahoc attacked me in the Barren Sky. I put on manashield and ran to the pad, and flew off. Didn't put me in combat, or I wouldn't have been able to fly. </blockquote> I thought you were a Brigand?

[Cyst]

<p>Activating manashield alone doesn't put you into combat, but if anyone does 1 point of damage to you, you're put into combat.</p>

[Pumancat]

<p>So you're saying that not only does Ward of Sages put us into combat, but Manashield also?</p><p>But why would you cast Manashield before combat starts anyway?</p><p>Nyarlath - 70 wizard</p><p>Venekor server</p>

[Demonkill]

<p>Manashield should not put a mage in combat</p><p>ward of sages should not put a mage in combat</p><p>frost ward should not put a mage in combat</p><p>please fix thanks</p>

[Darkor]

Demonkill@Venekor wrote: <blockquote><p>Manashield should not put a mage in combat</p><p>ward of sages should not put a mage in combat</p><p>frost ward should not put a mage in combat</p><p>please fix thanks</p></blockquote> 100 % agree

[Norrsken]

Demonkill@Venekor wrote: <blockquote><p>Manashield should not put a mage in combat</p><p>ward of sages should not put a mage in combat</p><p>frost ward should not put a mage in combat</p><p>please fix thanks</p></blockquote>then neither of them should protect you either. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Leorange]

<cite>Pumancat wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>But why would you cast Manashield before combat starts anyway?</p></blockquote><p> Dunno. I'd wait untill I had 1% Health left and surprise them to death <img src="/smilies/908627bbe5e9f6a080977db8c365caff.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>But thats not the point here, what the OP said is: Manashield is like any Shamans ward. Once it shields, it <i>should</i> put in combat. I see no point in trying to get the devs to program otherwise.  </p><p>From hear-say (mind you, I am not the 70 warlock here) it also seems it works as intended: You <i>really are</i> in combat once used as protection.</p>

[Uilamin]

Demonkill@Venekor wrote: <blockquote><p>Manashield should not put a mage in combat</p><p>ward of sages should not put a mage in combat</p><p>frost ward should not put a mage in combat</p><p>please fix thanks</p></blockquote>If wards, and heals put you into combat so should manashield as it is essentially just a ward. 

[Ibunubi]

<p>Manashield should put you into combat when you cast it. I think the problem comes with the damage absorption being logged with your damage rather than your heals.</p><p>They should make Manashield put you into combat, but fix the ward procs off items to not put you into combat, such as Vultak eye and Sheild of the Magi, or at least give the option to right click cancel them in your buff window because if those wards are up, they don't have the cancel option and any point of damage puts you into combat.</p>

[Demonkill]

why should you not be able to fly or zone if you have 3-full grp of fp,s chasing you, if that,s the case, give mages extra speed cause we slow as hell atm

[Borias]

<p>Get a horse?</p>

[Demonkill]

i have a horse, but what about the ones who aint got one?

[Norrsken]

Demonkill@Venekor wrote: <blockquote>i have a horse, but what about the ones who aint got one?</blockquote>Do the carpet quest in SS for a free mount? <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Demonkill]

lol ok whatever, your trying to get that many classes nerfed, your gonna [Removed for Content] the game up more than what it is now, the point of the post is to just stop certain things putting mages into combat, i put extra speed as a suggestion

[Scatimus]

<p>"Takes time to cast - check, <b>uses mana - check - (FALSE)</b>, absorbs damage - check.</p><p>Why it is not putting in combat then?"</p><p>manashield doesnt cost any mana to cast, it doesnt <b>use</b> mana.  manashield makes it so you lose power instead of health.  if manashield puts you into combat then so should every other spell that is cast.  manashield is not an agressive spell.  it doesnt cause damage.  if you want manashield to put you into combat then cheetah, evac and every other spell cast should put you into combat.  </p>

[novok]

Muhaha@Nagafen wrote: <blockquote><p><span style="color: #ff3300">manashield is not an agressive spell.  it doesnt cause damage. </span> </p></blockquote> This did not fly with out of combat healing so it sure doesn't fly now.

[Dh]

<cite>ElephantonRU wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>It is no different from any other wards (like shamans wards).</p><p>Takes time to cast - check, uses mana - check, absorbs damage - check.</p><p>Why it is not putting in combat then?</p></blockquote><p> make evac put u in combat</p><p>make tracking put u in combat</p><p>nerf CPUs faster than mine</p>

[Norrsken]

Nosiop@Vox wrote: <blockquote><cite>ElephantonRU wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>It is no different from any other wards (like shamans wards).</p><p>Takes time to cast - check, uses mana - check, absorbs damage - check.</p><p>Why it is not putting in combat then?</p></blockquote><p> make evac put u in combat</p><p>make tracking put u in combat</p><p>nerf CPUs faster than mine</p></blockquote>Evac was changed, cant be used in combat. fine. Put me in combat after an evac. wont bother me much since I'll be immune anyways. Tracking? Tracking in no way absorbs damage done to you, or mitigates taking of damage, or does damage to anyone. Its completely passive. Things that are passive shouldnt put you in combat. A skill you turn on to not take damage, and thus avoid dying, should put you in combat. Hell, if lich puts me in combat every few seconds, your [Removed for Content] ubershield should.

[novok]

<p>You misunderstand me. I don't give a [I cannot control my vocabulary] one way or another what they do with you manashield. I was merely cutioning that using the very same argument that was used when they were debating whether to do away with OOC healing wasnot going to support your case very well.</p><p>Which is also why I did not say anything at all about the rest of your argument.</p>

[Norrsken]

Nosiop@Vox wrote: <blockquote><p>Mages get procd into fights we dont wanna fight all day long.  </p><p>Manashield almost makes up for long cast times / no avoidance / no mitagation / easily interrupted long cast times.  On top of this, someone can take 2 seconds to cast a pumice stone and render us useless. </p><p>Stop effin complaining with your easy mode class.</p></blockquote>I play a necro. Where is my [Removed for Content] manashield? I get long cast timers, low mitigation and easy interrupts.

[Dh]

Ulvhamne@Nagafen wrote: <blockquote>Nosiop@Vox wrote: <blockquote><p>Mages get procd into fights we dont wanna fight all day long.  </p><p>Manashield almost makes up for long cast times / no avoidance / no mitagation / easily interrupted long cast times.  On top of this, someone can take 2 seconds to cast a pumice stone and render us useless. </p><p>Stop effin complaining with your easy mode class.</p></blockquote>I play a necro. Where is my [I cannot control my vocabulary] manashield? I get long cast timers, low mitigation and easy interrupts. </blockquote>You get control spells like crazy fear and a pet that takes agro off u

[Dh]

and heals =P

[Norrsken]

Nosiop@Vox wrote: <blockquote>Ulvhamne@Nagafen wrote: <blockquote>Nosiop@Vox wrote: <blockquote><p>Mages get procd into fights we dont wanna fight all day long.  </p><p>Manashield almost makes up for long cast times / no avoidance / no mitagation / easily interrupted long cast times.  On top of this, someone can take 2 seconds to cast a pumice stone and render us useless. </p><p>Stop effin complaining with your easy mode class.</p></blockquote>I play a necro. Where is my [I cannot control my vocabulary] manashield? I get long cast timers, low mitigation and easy interrupts. </blockquote>You get control spells like crazy fear and a pet that takes agro off u </blockquote>I get 1 fear, 1 root and 1 stun. A wizard gets at least 1 root, some snares, and stuns. you get more CC than I do. My tank pet cant hold aggro for .5 seconds against a good pvper. None of my other pets have taunts. and quite honestly, Im better off with any other pet than the tank pet since well, not being targeted for .5 seconds of a fight isnt doing anything for my survivability. and its 1 heal. 2 lifetaps. you do know that all three are negated by basically autoattacks as well right? And oh yeah, you know what? ALL of those put me in combat.

[Dh]

<p>At least manashield doesn't make the person just disapear like evac. They end up having no power and prob die anyways. Unless you are camping the clouds in Barren Sky and got mad cas that uber slayer fame made it back to the cloud with 10% health and power after landing in your full group that didn't even render yet.</p>

[Droka]

Ulvhamne@Nagafen wrote: <blockquote>Nosiop@Vox wrote: <blockquote>Ulvhamne@Nagafen wrote: <blockquote>Nosiop@Vox wrote: <blockquote><p>Mages get procd into fights we dont wanna fight all day long.  </p><p>Manashield almost makes up for long cast times / no avoidance / no mitagation / easily interrupted long cast times.  On top of this, someone can take 2 seconds to cast a pumice stone and render us useless. </p><p>Stop effin complaining with your easy mode class.</p></blockquote>I play a necro. Where is my [I cannot control my vocabulary] manashield? I get long cast timers, low mitigation and easy interrupts. </blockquote>You get control spells like crazy fear and a pet that takes agro off u </blockquote>I get 1 fear, 1 root and 1 stun. A wizard gets at least 1 root, some snares, and stuns. you get more CC than I do. <span style="color: #cc0000">My tank pet cant hold aggro for .5 seconds against a good pvper. </span>None of my other pets have taunts. and quite honestly, Im better off with any other pet than the tank pet since well, not being targeted for .5 seconds of a fight isnt doing anything for my survivability. and its 1 heal. 2 lifetaps. you do know that all three are negated by basically autoattacks as well right? And oh yeah, you know what? ALL of those put me in combat. </blockquote><p>Manashield will not even get off if you fight a good pvper, and if for some lucky chance it does, pumice ftw. Good pvpers don't worry about manashield because they know its only delaying their win, not hampering it.</p><p>Every wizard knew this would happen, this post, this arguement. It was the same when resists changed around the launch of EoF.</p><p>My fix for your complaint is to have soe have roaming, token dropping, pvp npcs, for all the mage gankers out there that cant get their gank on anymore. Problem solved. See that was easy. </p>

[Elephanton]

Nosiop@Vox wrote: <blockquote><p>Manashield almost makes up for long cast times / no avoidance / no mitagation / easily interrupted long cast times.  On top of this, someone can take 2 seconds to cast a pumice stone and render us useless. </p></blockquote><p>KK, leave manashield ward as is, but then make my shaman's ward not to put me in the fight as well. I also have long cast timers (3-5sec) / no avoidance / easily interrupted / and on top of this, I cannot do anything what you can call "damage" without laughing. At least, you can 1-2 shot people - true glass cannon.</p><p>And not once I was able to remove manashield with pumice at 70. All other crap goes off (magi shielding, buffs etc.) but not manashield. </p>

[Dh]

<cite>ElephantonRU wrote:</cite><blockquote>Nosiop@Vox wrote: <blockquote><p>Manashield almost makes up for long cast times / no avoidance / no mitagation / easily interrupted long cast times.  On top of this, someone can take 2 seconds to cast a pumice stone and render us useless. </p></blockquote><p>KK, leave manashield ward as is, but then make my shaman's ward not to put me in the fight as well. I also have long cast timers (3-5sec) / no avoidance / easily interrupted / and on top of this, I cannot do anything what you can call "damage" without laughing. At least, you can 1-2 shot people - true glass cannon.</p><p>And not once I was able to remove manashield with pumice at 70. All other crap goes off (magi shielding, buffs etc.) but not manashield. </p></blockquote><p> You can still heal. So how many hitpoints do you get?</p><p>Sorcerers need to get a 2 second cast item to remove all of our target's armor like pumice stone does to us. Then it would be fair.</p><p>As a Warlock MOST of our damage spells are 4-5 sec cast, not a few like wizards.</p>

[Magius789]

<cite>ElephantonRU wrote:</cite><blockquote>Nosiop@Vox wrote: <blockquote><p>Manashield almost makes up for long cast times / no avoidance / no mitagation / easily interrupted long cast times.  On top of this, someone can take 2 seconds to cast a pumice stone and render us useless. </p></blockquote><p>KK, leave manashield ward as is, but then make my shaman's ward not to put me in the fight as well. I also have long cast timers (3-5sec) / no avoidance / easily interrupted / and on top of this, I cannot do anything what you can call "damage" without laughing. At least, you can 1-2 shot people - true glass cannon.</p><p><b><span style="color: #ff0000">And not once I was able to remove manashield with pumice at 70. All other crap goes off (magi shielding, buffs etc.) but not manashield. </span></b></p></blockquote> QFE, this has happened in my experience as well. 

[CresentBlade]

<cite>ElephantonRU wrote:</cite><blockquote>Nosiop@Vox wrote: <blockquote><p>Manashield almost makes up for long cast times / no avoidance / no mitagation / easily interrupted long cast times.  On top of this, someone can take 2 seconds to cast a pumice stone and render us useless. </p></blockquote><p>KK, leave manashield ward as is, but then make my shaman's ward not to put me in the fight as well. I also have long cast timers (3-5sec) / no avoidance / easily interrupted / and on top of this, I cannot do anything what you can call "damage" without laughing. At least, you can 1-2 shot people - true glass cannon.</p><p>And not once I was able to remove manashield with pumice at 70. All other crap goes off (magi shielding, buffs etc.) but not manashield. </p></blockquote><span style="font-family: andale mono,times">I will support that if Manashield doesnt put you into combat then wards should not either.</span>

[Mildavyn]

<cite>Magius789 wrote:</cite><blockquote><blockquote><p><b><span style="color: #ff0000">And not once I was able to remove manashield with pumice at 70. All other crap goes off (magi shielding, buffs etc.) but not manashield. </span></b></p></blockquote> QFE, this has happened in my experience as well.  </blockquote><p>I have removed manasheild in solo combat with a pumice stone before. You just got unlucky.</p><p>Also, the necro AA pet-taunt locks target for 2 seconds with a single point spent (May be longer with more points but I doubt it). Single target FEAR is 1sec cast time. Accounting for recovery time, you should be able to get your fear off. Root is 2 seconds, you could get this off if you wait until the last momment to taunt, or just cast it after the fear. Problem solved.</p><p>As far as I know (spell description doesn't say) both of those spells are based on your subjugation skill. So get more. </p>

[Dh]

<p>This post is full of people that got mad cas they couldn't gank a solo with their whole group. Instead of getting mad at a solo evacing from their group and totally disappearing, they got mad cas a sorcerer hit manashield and made it back to the cloud platform/griffon tower/carpet and survived.   Yet a plate tank or chain wearer could have done the same thing without manashield with their mitagation and avoidance.  </p><p>CRY MORE</p>

[Kul]

Yes will how about we go back to armor proc's putting you in combat to then? and another thing if you can get a wizard to 20% or a warlock to 30% they are automatically in combat because apparently Passive spells that proc off on you put you into combat and a healers thorns wont put them in combat (passive spell procs onto melee attacks). And stop whining about manashield not putting into combat since it's like a "ward"...well it's not A ward when it expires will heal you correct? so it's like a heal..while manashield will just take away your power no heal what so ever. In the end if you have a ranger with your group you would not be whining about this because a ranger can do about 6k damage in 2 seconds..dont tell me they cant cause I have seen my parse where they did.

[Norrsken]

Paikis@Venekor wrote: <blockquote><cite>Magius789 wrote:</cite><blockquote><blockquote><p><b><span style="color: #ff0000">And not once I was able to remove manashield with pumice at 70. All other crap goes off (magi shielding, buffs etc.) but not manashield. </span></b></p></blockquote> QFE, this has happened in my experience as well.  </blockquote><p>I have removed manasheild in solo combat with a pumice stone before. You just got unlucky.</p><p>Also, the necro AA pet-taunt locks target for 2 seconds with a single point spent (May be longer with more points but I doubt it). Single target FEAR is 1sec cast time. Accounting for recovery time, you should be able to get your fear off. Root is 2 seconds, you could get this off if you wait until the last momment to taunt, or just cast it after the fear. Problem solved.</p><p>As far as I know (spell description doesn't say) both of those spells are based on your subjugation skill. So get more. </p></blockquote>nah, its never longer than 2 seconds. you get 12.5% chance of it working / point you put in. so anything less than 8 points is a crap taunt. Since it can still be resisted.

[Mildavyn]

Ulvhamne@Nagafen wrote: <blockquote>Paikis@Venekor wrote: <blockquote><p>Also, the necro AA pet-taunt locks target for 2 seconds with a single point spent (May be longer with more points but I doubt it). Single target FEAR is 1sec cast time. Accounting for recovery time, you should be able to get your fear off. Root is 2 seconds, you could get this off if you wait until the last momment to taunt, or just cast it after the fear. Problem solved.</p><p>As far as I know (spell description doesn't say) both of those spells are based on your subjugation skill. So get more. </p></blockquote>nah, its never longer than 2 seconds. you get 12.5% chance of it working / point you put in. so anything less than 8 points is a crap taunt. Since it can still be resisted. </blockquote><p>I assume you're talking about the taunt AA? Well I can tell you that it works almost every time in PvP with a single point spent. I think you're looking at the PvE version, which has a small taunt, and then 12.5% per point chance to bump the pet up one hate position. In PvP, it's just like a normal taunt. Unless resisted (very rare, based off aggression, not points spent) it locks their target for 2 seconds. Examine and check the 'PvP' box <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>My Necro is only level 14 at the momment... but he's got almost a 4:1 KvD ratio, and before I got my 1 point into that taunt it was more like 1:1 anyone serious about playing a PvP necro needs to get atleast one point into it. </p>

[Jim737]

Dont even try to change it to put U in combat ... coz mages are one of the weakest classes for pvp they canot stand  alive more than 4 secs when they get jumped other classes have much more chances to survive or run away .... manashield is only 1 thing what remains to try to safe their lifes ........ anyway if their evac is not up..... they gonna die from 90% of situations ..... just giving small amount of hope to move somewhere (10 meters max <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> where they get saved .... but how I wrote ... from 90% they gonna ... <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[rvbarton]

Nosiop@Vox wrote: <blockquote><cite>ElephantonRU wrote:</cite><blockquote>Nosiop@Vox wrote: <blockquote><p>Manashield almost makes up for long cast times / no avoidance / no mitagation / easily interrupted long cast times.  On top of this, someone can take 2 seconds to cast a pumice stone and render us useless. </p></blockquote><p>KK, leave manashield ward as is, but then make my shaman's ward not to put me in the fight as well. I also have long cast timers (3-5sec) / no avoidance / easily interrupted / and on top of this, I cannot do anything what you can call "damage" without laughing. At least, you can 1-2 shot people - true glass cannon.</p><p>And not once I was able to remove manashield with pumice at 70. All other crap goes off (magi shielding, buffs etc.) but not manashield. </p></blockquote><p> You can still heal. So how many hitpoints do you get?</p><p>Sorcerers need to get a 2 second cast item to remove all of our target's armor like pumice stone does to us. Then it would be fair.</p><p>As a Warlock MOST of our damage spells are 4-5 sec cast, not a few like wizards.</p></blockquote>Mystic heals are useless in PVP fights.  The cast times are too long, especially considering the minimal amount of healing they do, and not to mention how easily interrupted Mystics are.  Oh, let's not forget that our cures are PVP nerfed also, so when you stack DoTs on us, we can only clear one every 5 seconds, but, let's not forget what was mentioned about interrupts...  All of this within 5 seconds then we are dead, even if we try to ward & run.  There is no defense for a Mystic.  All you need is a Pumice stone and a slingshot and you can kill a level 70 Mystic in about 5 seconds.

[HerbertWalker]

<p>Wards/Heals are very different than manashield.   The two do not need to, and I believe should not, share the same mechanic in putting you into combat mode.  </p><p>I will remind you that manashield does not prevent damage, and is never repeat casted.   Of course, wards do - so they drag you into combat.  Too cheap, too repeatable, and too much OOC power regen make the Ward a no brainer.</p><p>The problem that the combat update fixed was OOC healing.   It did not need to include manashield because manashield was not a problem.</p><p>Sorcerors have never used manashield to stay out of combat forever while being pummeled.   That would never work.   Yet that is exactly what healers were doing with their wards and heals before the change went live.   The change fixed that invunerable healer scenario.   The same change to manashield would not solve any invulnerable sorceror scenarios - because there are no invulnerable sorcerors.   There are only those that made it to the cloud in time.  Working as intended.</p><p>Someone popped manashield and made it to the clouds, and you call for a nerf.  Why not nerf the guardian who sprinted through and flew with a sliver of health?  I bet you would love to nerf guardians you meanie.</p><p>A sorceror will use manashield as an escape tactic.   If he isn't chain casting, then he is escaping.</p><p>Now, I agree that a Mystic will want to use his ward/heals as an escape method.  It is a shame that certain classes are better at OOC escape than others.   Since IC/OOC is the most important game mechanic to exploit in order to be successful solo, one would think that all classes should be on equal footing as to how IC/OOC can be exploited.  But that is not the case.  Leaving the healers with only his Sprint to survive is an unfortunate side effect of forcing healers into combat, but an acceptable one given the relative solo power of druids.   Poor shaman.</p><p>So in the game of OOC running for the cloud, healers and fighters gets their buffs and sprint to survive.  Scouts get lots of options.  A sorceror gets his buffs and sprint and manashield to survive.  Sounds somewhat fair so far.   But then we get to the other mages.   Summoners and Enchanters only get sprint?</p><p>There are ways to lock a sorceror into combat once he has popped manashield.   It happens from time to time, so I am starting to learn which classes can do that to me.</p>

[Elephanton]

<cite>HerbertWalker wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>There are ways to lock a sorceror into combat once he has popped manashield.   It happens from time to time, so I am starting to learn which classes can do that to me.</p></blockquote>And the point of this thread is what?  All classes must lock you in-combat once they damage your manashield, not just some.  Thank you.

[HerbertWalker]

<p>All classes or none.  imo it should be none.</p><p>So we will just disagree on that.</p>

[HerbertWalker]

<p>Some classes seem better equipped to exploit the IC/OOC mechanic more easily.</p><p>Guardians benefit a lot by being able to sprint to zone OOC, with buffs.  Guardians need that advantage in PvP, so this uneven playfield serves to help a weak class.</p><p>Healers can only sprint, no spells.   And therin lies the balance.   As intended, it serves to balance the power of OOC healing.</p><p>Sorcerors benefit a lot by being able to sprint to zone OOC with manshield.   Sorcs need that.</p><p>This is where we disagree.  You do not believe that Soercerors should be permitted to be a powerful tier 1 PvP class or powerful PvP soloer.</p><p>Why not?</p><p>Edit:  And give the Summoners and Enchanters each a means of escaping Out Of Combat OOC.  All they can do is sprint.  Give goodies to the underplayed classes, omg duh.</p>

[Elephanton]

<cite>HerbertWalker wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>All classes or none.  imo it should be none.</p><p>So we will just disagree on that.</p></blockquote><p>Yes, I will disagree... manashield is the only ward left in the game which does not put caster in PVP combat... this gives unfair advantage.</p><p>If I attack you, and you cast any ability helping you to prevent me from hurting you (CC spells, cures, heals, wards, manashield), you must be put in combat and there should be no exceptions for any classes. </p>

[Dh]

<cite>ElephantonRU wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>HerbertWalker wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>All classes or none.  imo it should be none.</p><p>So we will just disagree on that.</p></blockquote><p>Yes, I will disagree... manashield is the only ward left in the game which does not put caster in PVP combat... this gives unfair advantage.</p><p>If I attack you, and you cast any ability helping you to prevent me from hurting you (CC spells, cures, heals, wards, manashield), you must be put in combat and there should be no exceptions for any classes. </p></blockquote><p>Track is an unfair advantage.</p><p>Heals are unfair advantage.</p><p>Non cloth armor is an unfair advantage.</p><p>Not having the need to stand in the same spot for 4 seconds to deal damage is an unfair advantage.</p><p>Manashield is not a ward. How many wards take all of the users power within 5 seconds of getting beat on.</p><p>Stop crying </p>

[Dh]

On a second note, stop tryin to gank and go earn your kills

[jam3]

manashield is annoying but its not that hard to snare/stun and run for 15 -20 seconds til manashield off and kill him?

[HerbertWalker]

<p>The only problem with manashield is the fact that it is the obvious choice as for how to spec.</p><p>The utility it gives to the sorceror is what allows the sorceror to now live amongst the top tier solo pvp classes - predators, druids, sorcerers.</p><p>Would be nice if folks just accepted that another couple classes get to join the party up on the top of the food chain.   Only a few more classes to boost and things could be even more balanced.</p>

[Elephanton]

Nosiop@Vox wrote: <blockquote><cite>ElephantonRU wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>HerbertWalker wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>All classes or none.  imo it should be none.</p><p>So we will just disagree on that.</p></blockquote><p>Yes, I will disagree... manashield is the only ward left in the game which does not put caster in PVP combat... this gives unfair advantage.</p><p>If I attack you, and you cast any ability helping you to prevent me from hurting you (CC spells, cures, heals, wards, manashield), you must be put in combat and there should be no exceptions for any classes. </p></blockquote><p>Manashield is not a ward. How many wards take all of the users power within 5 seconds of getting beat on.</p></blockquote><p>And how many wards protect you from 20K+ of pure damage in PVP?</p><p>Yes, it costs mana cause 20K is insane amount of damage. </p>

[Elephanton]

Aeeron@Nagafen wrote: <blockquote>manashield is annoying but its not that hard to snare/stun and run for 15 -20 seconds til manashield off and kill him? </blockquote><p>Not all classes have snares/stuns, kk? </p>

[Dh]

<cite>ElephantonRU wrote:</cite><blockquote>Nosiop@Vox wrote: <blockquote><cite>ElephantonRU wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>HerbertWalker wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>All classes or none.  imo it should be none.</p><p>So we will just disagree on that.</p></blockquote><p>Yes, I will disagree... manashield is the only ward left in the game which does not put caster in PVP combat... this gives unfair advantage.</p><p>If I attack you, and you cast any ability helping you to prevent me from hurting you (CC spells, cures, heals, wards, manashield), you must be put in combat and there should be no exceptions for any classes. </p></blockquote><p>Manashield is not a ward. How many wards take all of the users power within 5 seconds of getting beat on.</p></blockquote><p>And how many wards protect you from 20K+ of pure damage in PVP?</p><p>Yes, it costs mana cause 20K is insane amount of damage. </p></blockquote>You realize you would have to have over 13,000 power to stop 20k pure damage right? That is if you were not using power to you know... cast spells.  I guess you complely have no clue how this game works. Stop crying and learn to play instead.

[Dh]

13,000 power is twice as much power than my level 70 warlock has with 600 int.

[Elephanton]

Nosiop@Vox wrote: <blockquote><cite>ElephantonRU wrote:</cite><blockquote><b><i>Nosiop@Vox wrote:</i></b> <p>And how many wards protect you from 20K+ of pure damage in PVP?</p><p>Yes, it costs mana cause 20K is insane amount of damage. </p></blockquote>You realize you would have to have over 13,000 power to stop 20k pure damage right? </blockquote><p>No you don't need 13.000 power for that, around 8.000 is enough. You are totally forgetting about mitigation here.</p><p>With 0 mitigation, yes you would need 13.000</p><p>But my warlock friend runs at 40% miti @ 70, so...</p>

[yellowbelly08]

<p>So to recap manashield or fearing someone off a cliff doesnt put you in combat yet casting a vision totem or immune stun pot and even bizarely occaisionally the likes of stealth and sprint does....sort it out quick pls devs.</p><p>Galoro</p>

[Dh]

So what you are saying is you need to dish out 60k damage to kill a scout with 30k hitpoints and 50% mitigation?

[Dh]

<p>8,000 X 1.5 = 12,000 </p><p>not 20,000</p>

[Elephanton]

<p><b>Nosiop</b> you are also forgetting about mitigation in your calculations</p><p>Take <a href="http://img73.imageshack.us/my.php?image=pic51nw9.jpg" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">this warlock</a> for example Mana 6800 Miti 40%+</p><p>Manashield would absorb (6800 x 1.5) х 1.66 = <b>17K pure damage</b></p>

[Spider]

<cite>HerbertWalker wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>The only problem with manashield is the fact that it is the obvious choice as for how to spec.</p><p>The utility it gives to the sorceror is what allows the sorceror to now live amongst the top tier solo pvp classes - predators, druids, sorcerers.</p><p>Would be nice if folks just accepted that another couple classes get to join the party up on the top of the food chain.   Only a few more classes to boost and things could be even more balanced.</p></blockquote><p> its not about taking away manashields usufullness or reducing its effectiveness in combat at all </p><p>but like all other non item trigger  damage prevention spells it should  put u in combat  period </p>

[Dh]

You are trying to make it sound like it absorbs 17k hitpoints. That is not the case.

[Dh]

<p>Nice post count Spider, bet you leave messages on subjects you really have no idea about quite often.</p>

[Elephanton]

<cite>Spider wrote:</cite><blockquote>its not about taking away manashields usufullness or reducing its effectiveness in combat at all <p>but like all other non item trigger  damage prevention spells it should  put u in combat  period </p></blockquote><p>QFE</p><p>This is whole point of this thread right here</p><p>How many times should I repeat that </p>

[Elephanton]

Nosiop@Vox wrote: <blockquote>You are trying to make it sound like it absorbs 17k hitpoints. That is not the case.</blockquote>Then prove it with math like I did

[Spider]

Nosiop@Vox wrote: <blockquote><p>Nice post count Spider, bet you leave messages on subjects you really have no idea about quite often.</p></blockquote><p> hmmm seems more like your area of expertise there chief </p>

[Dh]

<p>Prove what? </p><p>You can't just multiply a number by someone's physical mitagation to make it sound bigger to get some kind of point across.</p><p>Manashield absorbs 2 points of power for each 3 points of damage received.</p><p><b><span style="font-size: medium">6000 power = 9000 damage</span></b> that would have been normally taken from their health </p><p>Sorcerers get manashield because they are [Removed for Content] in other areas compared to other classes stop crying because you couldn't kill one in 2 seconds and they got away.</p><p>Manashield isn't new and the boost it got was offset by all of our wards getting HUGE nerfs.  </p><p>Stop crying and go gank a scout instead. They don't have manashield. Oh they have track and evac?</p>

[Elephanton]

Nosiop@Vox wrote: <blockquote><p>Prove what? </p><p>You can't just multiply a number by someone's physical mitagation to make it sound bigger to get some kind of point across.</p><p>Manashield absorbs 2 points of power for each 3 points of damage received.</p><p><b><span style="font-size: medium">6000 power = 9000 damage</span></b> that would have been normally taken from their health </p><p>Sorcerers get manashield because they are [Removed for Content] in other areas compared to other classes stop crying because you couldn't kill one in 2 seconds and they got away.</p><p>Manashield isn't new and the boost it got was offset by all of our wards getting HUGE nerfs.  </p><p>Stop crying and go gank a scout instead. They don't have manashield. Oh they have track and evac?</p></blockquote><p>Manashield counts mitigation as well, if you don't know this then don't bother posting here, you don't bring any value to this thread. </p><p>Also, I don't like that you are constantly trying to de-rail this topic to talking about something else. There are other topics right in this forums where people are asking to <b>nerf</b> manashield - you can go and write your stupid arguments based on total incompetence in game mechanics there.</p><p><span style="font-size: medium">The point of this thread is not asking to nerf manashield anyhow</span></p><p><span style="font-size: medium">Just make it put you in combat like all other player-activated wards do. </span></p>

[Dh]

<p>You <b><span style="font-size: medium">ARE</span></b> asking for a manashield nerf. You <span style="font-size: medium">ARE</span> trying to make it sound more powerful than it is.</p><p>Yes it goes through physical mit and spell mitigation based on which of the different spell damages you take.  For each different attack it absorbs, it is a different mitigation. This happens to damage without manashield too!  You cannot simply multiply it by one mitigation and say "Look at this rediculous number! I'm RIGHT! I can make it sound totatly overpowered talking about unmitigated damage which has nothing to do with the actual damage manashield absorbs! Maybe the Devs won't fall for it, but maybe the other people that lose to clothys will!"</p><p>The point is <span style="font-size: x-small"><b>6000 power = 9000 damage</b> that would have been normally taken from their health</span> </p><p><span style="font-size: small"><b>I am just correcting your misleading information.</b></span></p>

[Acaneo]

should or should not?   if you hang out long enough to use mana shield then you deserve to be in combat.  the only reason i see to bring this up is if you are a runner... i quess im being harsh but if you use it to run then you deserve to be in combat.  thats how i see it.  the rest of us dont get a spiffy ward that doesnt put us in combat.

[Dh]

<p>Other classes with wards do not have cloth armor.  </p><p>Staying around long enough to have to use it? It takes about 2 seconds to get a clothy in red. </p>

[Norrsken]

Nosiop@Vox wrote: <blockquote><p>Other classes with wards do not have cloth armor.  </p><p>Staying around long enough to have to use it? It takes about 2 seconds to get a clothy in red. </p></blockquote>how about the classes with cloth armor without wards then?

[Dh]

Ulvhamne@Nagafen wrote: <blockquote>Nosiop@Vox wrote: <blockquote><p>Other classes with wards do not have cloth armor.  </p><p>Staying around long enough to have to use it? It takes about 2 seconds to get a clothy in red. </p></blockquote>how about the classes with cloth armor without wards then? </blockquote> They get better player control abilities... duh

[Elephanton]

Nosiop@Vox wrote: <blockquote><p>You <b><span style="font-size: medium">ARE</span></b> asking for a manashield nerf. You <span style="font-size: medium">ARE</span> trying to make it sound more powerful than it is.</p></blockquote><p>I am not asking to nerf manashield.</p><p>I am only asking for manashield to put you in combat. I am only asking for manashield to put you in combat. I am only asking for manashield to put you in combat. I am only asking for manashield to put you in combat. I am only asking for manashield to put you in combat. I am only asking for manashield to put you in combat. I am only asking for manashield to put you in combat. I am only asking for manashield to put you in combat. I am only asking for manashield to put you in combat. I am only asking for manashield to put you in combat.</p><p>Is this enough for you finally?</p><p>Nosiop@Vox wrote: </p><blockquote><p>Yes it goes through physical mit and spell mitigation based on which of the different spell damages you take.  For each different attack it absorbs, it is a different mitigation. This happens to damage without manashield too!  You cannot simply multiply it by one mitigation and say "Look at this rediculous number! I'm RIGHT! I can make it sound totatly overpowered talking about unmitigated damage which has nothing to do with the actual damage manashield absorbs! Maybe the Devs won't fall for it, but maybe the other people that lose to clothys will!"</p></blockquote><p>So you are finally confirming that mitigation should be counted as well. Took just a few pages. Great.</p><p>Nosiop@Vox wrote:</p><blockquote><p>The point is <b>6000 power = 9000 damage</b> that would have been normally taken from their health </p></blockquote><p>Absorbing 9000 damage from 6000 power means ZERO mitigation. No one runs with 0 mitigation in the game. Don't try to make your past false arguments look like they had any sense. This makes you look silly.</p><p>Nosiop@Vox wrote: </p><blockquote><p><b>I am just correcting your misleading information.</b></p></blockquote><p>Thanks, but my sample calculations where totally fine for Melee combat. There are nothing misleading with them for you to correct. There are just not meant to cover spell damage as well. It should be pretty clear since I used melee damage mitigation in my calculations.</p>

[Elephanton]

<p>And again, just to make sure.</p><p><span style="font-size: x-large">I am not asking to nerf manashield.</span></p><p><span style="font-size: x-large">I am only asking for manashield to put caster in combat.</span></p>

[Norrsken]

Nosiop@Vox wrote: <blockquote>Ulvhamne@Nagafen wrote: <blockquote>Nosiop@Vox wrote: <blockquote><p>Other classes with wards do not have cloth armor.  </p><p>Staying around long enough to have to use it? It takes about 2 seconds to get a clothy in red. </p></blockquote>how about the classes with cloth armor without wards then? </blockquote> They get better player control abilities... duh</blockquote>Nopes. 1 fear with a 1 min reuse or something like that, 1 root and 1 stun. How many does the wizzy have? root, root, stun, snare?

[Spag]

<cite>ElephantonRU wrote:</cite><blockquote><p><a href="mailto:Nosiop@Vox" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">Nosiop@Vox</a> wrote:</p><blockquote><p>The point is <b>6000 power = 9000 damage</b> that would have been normally taken from their health </p></blockquote><p>Absorbing 9000 damage from 6000 power means ZERO mitigation. No one runs with 0 mitigation in the game. Don't try to make your past false arguments look like they had any sense. This makes you look silly.</p></blockquote><p>Sorry here ElephantonRU, I would have to agree with Nosiop on this.  Mitigation, whether it be physical or magical is calculated before the player (or ward) takes the hit.  so at 6000 power, thats 9000 HP any way you look at it.</p><p>However I do agree that it should either put the player into combat, or only be useful in combat.  It is a defensive action, no different than healing is a defensive action.  Healing/Warding will put you into combat, so should manashield.  I don't care which way it goes, but you should not be able to have the benefit of manashield and remain out of combat. </p>

[Elephanton]

<cite>Spag wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>ElephantonRU wrote:</cite><blockquote><p><a href="mailto:Nosiop@Vox" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">Nosiop@Vox</a> wrote:</p><blockquote><p>The point is <b>6000 power = 9000 damage</b> that would have been normally taken from their health </p></blockquote><p>Absorbing 9000 damage from 6000 power means ZERO mitigation. No one runs with 0 mitigation in the game. Don't try to make your past false arguments look like they had any sense. This makes you look silly.</p></blockquote><p>Sorry here ElephantonRU, I would have to agree with Nosiop on this.  Mitigation, whether it be physical or magical is calculated before the player (or ward) takes the hit.  so at 6000 power, thats 9000 HP any way you look at it.</p></blockquote><p>That is right, but we are talking not about HP, but about pure incoming damage here. You are even quoting this in your post, and I did state it very clear on my calculations. </p><p>Yes 6000 power = 9000 HP : no arguments here, HP (Hit Points) already include mitigation calculated</p><p>However Nosiop says that 6000 power = 9000 damage (quoted above) : this is NOT right, this is only true for 0 mitigation </p>

[Dh]

<p>wow dude.... I guess u just dont understand how damage works in this game. </p>

[Amphibia]

<img src="http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l80/myrtelolaf/manashield.jpg" border="0"> Here's a a screenshot of someone evaccing after using manashield. What's up with that? Please fix it.

[HerbertWalker]

<p>Why nerf a class that is not #1 on the food chain?   That basis alone is good enough reason not to nerf manashield.</p><p>You are pretending that what constitutes a great class solely rests on his <b>in-combat</b> effectiveness.  That is a flawed assumption that permeates your argument.</p><p>Asking for it to put the caster in combat severly reduces the sorcerors all around PvP ability (though you rerpeatedly point out that it has no effect on the Sorcerors in-combat ability.)   Well, duh - that is not very complicated.   Perhaps this next statement will blow your mind.</p><p>A large part of being good in PvP is being able to sometimes, hopefully often, AVOID getting ganked.   Stop glossing over this fact.</p><p>You just keep repeating over and over, "I don't want manashield's effectiveness reduced, only for it to put the caster into combat."</p><p>Yeah I know how to read.   Don't claim that is not a nerf, when in fact it is a direct nerf on the single ability that permits Sorcerors to be in this game with Predators and Druids.  It is the OOC tendency of manashield that you seek to abolish, and that OOC tendency of manashield is exactly what puts Sorcerors in the top tier.   Manashield on its own leaves Sorcerors in the mid tier of PvP classes.  So, oh thank you very much for allowing Sorcerors to have a beefed up solo uberpower ability, when it's original solo uberpower ability was already more than plenty!</p><p>From this wizard's perspective, solo play is all about being able to avoid getting ganked.  You'll get your kills in.  It is all about <b>not</b> getting rolled.   Nerfing manashield a bit, and keeping it OOC is the balance needed if any imo.   OOC manashield is the Sorcerors only chance at getting away.</p><p>So if this is about balance, give the other cloth classes and other clases that need help...some means of escaping OOC.</p><p><u>Balanced</u></p><p>Scouts evac casts on the run.</p><p>Sorcerors evac does not, but manashield remains out of combat.</p><p>You seek to disturb this balance.</p>

[Tarlok]

It should put you into combat, that or all other casters should get a ward that doesn't put you into combat. I know on my defiler it would be great to be able to "avoid the gank" but I along with any other healers with damage wards are put into combat as soon as we cast one. So balance is defined as 2 classes with 1 of them being able to basicly pop a ooc ward remain ooc and then evac away. Yea..........that sounds real ballanced. Edited to correct my oversight that warloks don't get evac.

[Dh]

<p>Warlocks are weak, pathetic against other casters and do not get evac.</p><p>Only thing they got goin is nullmail which a pumice stone can remove along with focused casting and manashield (half of their AAs spent)  in one 2 second cast from a grey. Too bad all of their casts are 3-4 second casts most being 4. </p><p>Their PVP gear procs them into combat. Along with the ward robe from nest. Their wards and damage got nerfed last update. They wear cloth armor with no hitpoints/avoidance/mitigation, dont get evac, cant heal and lets please nerf them.</p>

[HerbertWalker]

<p>No one is addressing my post right there.</p><p>Currently we are at this point in rating overall solo PvP effectiveness:</p><p>Druids > Sorcerors > Predators   OR   Druids > Predators> Sorcerors  OR   Predators> Druids > Sorcerors ..  etc</p><p>It's a matter of opinion, but most people will not judge Sorcerors as the #1 solo PvP class, nor will they judge Sorcerors over Druids.   (Overall effectivess in PvP takes into account the ability to avoid losing fame due to getting steamrolled, etc, etc.   It's a lot of things.)</p><p>Why are you calling for nerfs of a class that is not #1 ?</p><p>Start at the top and nerf classes on your way down.</p><p>Or start at the bottom and boost classes on your way up.</p><p>It makes no sense to nerf a class that is not top dog, just to send him back down to the middle of the pack in terms of solo PvP effectiveness.</p><p>If your intent is to balance sorcerors with defilers, then the answer is to boost defilers - not to drag sorcerors down to defiler level, while at the same time leaving other classes with plenty of toys to keep them #1.</p><p>Druids and Predators have pretty good tools to avoid getting steamrolled OOC - out of combat.   OOC Manashield is how the Sorceror stays on par with Predators and Druids.</p>

[tass]

well for 1 you can throw that put into combat thing out the window with a manashield. It was the devs answer to a bunch of [Removed for Content] of mages that everyone could kill them before they could even think of the spell to click on. Top that with the whole resist scenario, and I doubt u'll see any kind. Now getting into detail, the manasheild isn't a ward or a heal. Its a SHIELD. Its something you hack at until its down. Its like a tanks shield. It takes a portion of the dmg. Would a guardians tower shield put them into combat?

[Spag]

<p>The only difference between manashield and a shaman ward, is that it costs the shaman power up front, rather than when damage is taken. </p><p>Its a defensive action and should only be useful in combat.  No different than the out of combat healing used to be.  Because not only are you able to stay out of combat, you are able to regen power/health at out of combat rates.</p><p>Claiming that its a shield and not a ward is ridiculous.  If you can pull that off, then I submit that heals aren't really heals they are HP recovery buffs, and therefore should not put you into combat either.  Do you see how silly that is?</p><p>70 warlock here, and I support it being incombat only, or place you into combat, its only fair.</p>

[silentpsycho]

<p>When healers (specifically, defilers, clearly not #1 in pvp in any regard) were nerfed to make them easier for people to kill a while ago, it was changed so that taking and *defensive* action placed you into combat just as quickly as an *offesnive* action.  This "solved" the "OOC healing problem" that so many tier 1 pvp classes complained on these forums about.  </p><p>Why should wizards, a clearly OP class, get the benefit of an uninterruptable, instant cast ward that gives >30k hp damage immunity, out of combat power (ward) and health regen, and the ability to evac (the only thing warlocks lack, btw) for better survivability than any other class, including healers.  I think the thing that sets me off is that wizards were one of the classes crying on the boards that it was too hard to kill a warden (this was the cannonical example given by whiners) with ooc healing, and now, when they have the ability to exploit a clear oversight in the combat system, everything is fine.</p><p>Combine this with the fact that resists are now completely broken in PVP (as in they provide absolutely no protection from spell damage in PVP), and I think the devs have some serious work to do here.</p>

[silentpsycho]

<cite>tass wrote:</cite><blockquote>well for 1 you can throw that put into combat thing out the window with a manashield. It was the devs answer to a bunch of [Removed for Content] of mages that everyone could kill them before they could even think of the spell to click on. Top that with the whole resist scenario, and I doubt u'll see any kind. Now getting into detail, the manasheild isn't a ward or a heal. Its a SHIELD. Its something you hack at until its down. Its like a tanks shield. It takes a portion of the dmg. Would a guardians tower shield put them into combat? </blockquote> Nice try.  So, what you are saying is that anything that shields you from taking damage should not put you into combat.  Ok, so shaman wards should not put you into combat either, then.  Neither should a Pally's wards then. SK's damage SHIELDS should not put you into combat either then, right?  What about Cleric reactives?  They work similarly to cleric's reactives.  Heck, if you go this far, which by logical extension you have to, then all heals should not put you into combat.  Wait, then wizards wouldn't be able to gank healers quite as easy... hmm...

[silentpsycho]

<cite>HerbertWalker wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>No one is addressing my post right there.</p><p>Currently we are at this point in rating overall solo PvP effectiveness:</p><p>Druids > Sorcerors > Predators   OR   Druids > Predators> Sorcerors  OR   Predators> Druids > Sorcerors ..  etc</p><p>It's a matter of opinion, but most people will not judge Sorcerors as the #1 solo PvP class, nor will they judge Sorcerors over Druids.   (Overall effectivess in PvP takes into account the ability to avoid losing fame due to getting steamrolled, etc, etc.   It's a lot of things.)</p><p>Why are you calling for nerfs of a class that is not #1 ?</p><p>Start at the top and nerf classes on your way down.</p><p>Or start at the bottom and boost classes on your way up.</p><p>It makes no sense to nerf a class that is not top dog, just to send him back down to the middle of the pack in terms of solo PvP effectiveness.</p><p>If your intent is to balance sorcerors with defilers, then the answer is to boost defilers - not to drag sorcerors down to defiler level, while at the same time leaving other classes with plenty of toys to keep them #1.</p><p>Druids and Predators have pretty good tools to avoid getting steamrolled OOC - out of combat.   OOC Manashield is how the Sorceror stays on par with Predators and Druids.</p></blockquote>Sorcerer's are clearly now the #1 solo pvp class.  #1 in survivability, hands down.  With resists being broken, they are now #1 in DPS.  And with ports and evac, a close tie for #1 with scouts and druids for utility.

[Dh]

Fyste@Nagafen wrote: <blockquote><p>When healers (specifically, defilers, clearly not #1 in pvp in any regard) were nerfed to make them easier for people to kill a while ago, it was changed so that taking and *defensive* action placed you into combat just as quickly as an *offesnive* action.  This "solved" the "OOC healing problem" that so many tier 1 pvp classes complained on these forums about.  </p><p>Why should wizards, a clearly OP class, get the benefit of an uninterruptable, instant cast ward that gives ><span style="font-size: small"><span style="color: #cc3333"><b>30k hp damage immunity</b></span></span>, out of combat power (ward) and health regen, and the ability to evac (the only thing warlocks lack, btw) for better survivability than any other class, including healers.  I think the thing that sets me off is that wizards were one of the classes crying on the boards that it was too hard to kill a warden (this was the cannonical example given by whiners) with ooc healing, and now, when they have the ability to exploit a clear oversight in the combat system, everything is fine.</p><p>Combine this with the fact that resists are now completely broken in PVP (as in they provide absolutely no protection from spell damage in PVP), and I think the devs have some serious work to do here.</p></blockquote><span style="font-size: small"><span style="color: #cc3300"><b>You know, when you start saying numbers that are completely unreal, people tend to ignore all the other stupid things you say.</b></span></span>

[Elephanton]

<p>Why am I asking that manashield puts in-combat?</p><p>It is not because I don't want sorcerors to be able to run away under the shield, not really (this is much smaller issue, though still annoying).</p><p>Main reason is quite different. Let me explain. All the classes I play (7 different classes) cannot even scratch sorceror when he/she pops manashield due to insufficient DPS. So, the only option I have is to run away for 30 sec. But I am in-combat already, while sorc is still out of combat with full horse speed. And there's no way I could kite a horse for 30 sec. So basically I have no chance against sorcs here.</p><p>Manashield must put in-combat period.</p><p>And if I were dev I would also look at overall balancing this KOS AA line (STA). ATM it looks like 100% of sorcerors on PVP servers are speccing this line first thing after they come out of noob islands. May be this should tell you something devs. May be indeed manashield is currently way too powerful and unbalanced. There should not be obvious choices in AA lines imo.</p>

[Elephanton]

Nosiop@Vox wrote: <blockquote>Fyste@Nagafen wrote: <blockquote><p>When healers (specifically, defilers, clearly not #1 in pvp in any regard) were nerfed to make them easier for people to kill a while ago, it was changed so that taking and *defensive* action placed you into combat just as quickly as an *offesnive* action.  This "solved" the "OOC healing problem" that so many tier 1 pvp classes complained on these forums about.  </p><p>Why should wizards, a clearly OP class, get the benefit of an uninterruptable, instant cast ward that gives ><span style="font-size: small"><span style="color: #cc3333"><b>30k hp damage immunity</b></span></span>, out of combat power (ward) and health regen, and the ability to evac (the only thing warlocks lack, btw) for better survivability than any other class, including healers.  I think the thing that sets me off is that wizards were one of the classes crying on the boards that it was too hard to kill a warden (this was the cannonical example given by whiners) with ooc healing, and now, when they have the ability to exploit a clear oversight in the combat system, everything is fine.</p><p>Combine this with the fact that resists are now completely broken in PVP (as in they provide absolutely no protection from spell damage in PVP), and I think the devs have some serious work to do here.</p></blockquote><span style="font-size: small"><span style="color: #cc3300"><b>You know, when you start saying numbers that are completely unreal, people tend to ignore all the other stupid things you say.</b></span></span> </blockquote><p>This is a bit over indeed, 30K was max pure damage that a 70 sorc could take with test manashield having 2:1 ratio (being poped at the right time)</p><p>With currently manashield it is a bit less than 25K of unmitigated damage (at least for my friend's stats, he is mitigation-specced warlock). </p>

[Magius789]

Manashield is overpowered   <img src="/smilies/385970365b8ed7503b4294502a458efa.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Pumancat]

<cite>ElephantonRU wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>It is no different from any other wards (like shamans wards).</p><p>Takes time to cast - check, uses mana - check, absorbs damage - check.</p><p>Why it is not putting in combat then?</p></blockquote><p> Because almost everything else we have for defence has already put us into combat before we can even cast MS.</p><p>So I guess this is just another thread crying to make us sorcerers free token toons again.</p><p>Nyarlath</p>

[tass]

Fyste@Nagafen wrote: <blockquote><cite>tass wrote:</cite><blockquote>well for 1 you can throw that put into combat thing out the window with a manashield. It was the devs answer to a bunch of [Removed for Content] of mages that everyone could kill them before they could even think of the spell to click on. Top that with the whole resist scenario, and I doubt u'll see any kind. Now getting into detail, the manasheild isn't a ward or a heal. Its a SHIELD. Its something you hack at until its down. Its like a tanks shield. It takes a portion of the dmg. Would a guardians tower shield put them into combat? </blockquote> Nice try.  So, what you are saying is that anything that shields you from taking damage should not put you into combat.  Ok, so shaman wards should not put you into combat either, then.  Neither should a Pally's wards then. SK's damage SHIELDS should not put you into combat either then, right?  What about Cleric reactives?  They work similarly to cleric's reactives.  Heck, if you go this far, which by logical extension you have to, then all heals should not put you into combat.  Wait, then wizards wouldn't be able to gank healers quite as easy... hmm...</blockquote>lol im not saying anything. Im telling you what it is. And what the developers made it as. Now you can ask them to change it. But I wouldn't hold my breath as it was their solution to shut the entire population up about how sorcerers suck and everscout 2, and bathrobe resists, the list goes on. Also if its anything like it was in test, it should run for a duration of about 30 seconds. Now of course if ur dumb enough to try and go 1 on 1 with a battlemage who has the lines that count as well as his magi shield speced well good luck to you. The smart bruisers and scouts I tested it on did a quick knock back or stifle or whatever it was, did a slow spell and ran their arses away fro 30 seconds. The ones that did stay for hand to hand combat used alot of stuns to keep my interupts up, but it was still a hard fought battle on some of em. And as I said since the developers really really dug the sorcerer class 1 hell of a hole I wouldnt expect them to take away any part of their survivability.

[Elephanton]

<cite>Pumancat wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>ElephantonRU wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>It is no different from any other wards (like shamans wards).</p><p>Takes time to cast - check, uses mana - check, absorbs damage - check.</p><p>Why it is not putting in combat then?</p></blockquote><p> Because almost everything else we have for defence has already put us into combat before we can even cast MS.</p><p><b>So I guess this is just another thread crying to make us sorcerers free token toons again.</b></p><p>Nyarlath</p></blockquote><p>You need to be honest here, all you guys really needed is fixing resists and spell damage mitigation (which are both "fixed" - they basically do not exist any longer in PVP).</p><p>99.9% of complaints from sorcerors were about insane resists, NOT about manashield lacking. </p>

[Elephanton]

<blockquote><p>All the classes I play (7 different classes) cannot even scratch sorceror when he/she pops manashield due to insufficient DPS. So, the only option I have is to run away for 30 sec. But I am in-combat already, while sorc is still out of combat with full horse speed. And there's no way I could kite a horse for 30 sec. So basically I have no chance against sorcs here.</p><p>Manashield must put in-combat period.</p></blockquote><p>QFE</p><p>Give us a chance to counter manashield at least by running away... you can't run away from 48% horse! </p>

[tiredang]

<cite>ElephantonRU wrote:</cite><blockquote><blockquote><p>All the classes I play (7 different classes) cannot even scratch sorceror when he/she pops manashield due to insufficient DPS. So, the only option I have is to run away for 30 sec. But I am in-combat already, while sorc is still out of combat with full horse speed. And there's no way I could kite a horse for 30 sec. So basically I have no chance against sorcs here.</p><p>Manashield must put in-combat period.</p></blockquote><p>QFE</p><p>Give us a chance to counter manashield at least by running away... you can't run away from 48% horse! </p></blockquote><p> Heh, it's not like the sorc is killing you -- so it sounds like you DO have a chance.  Oh, you mean of killing, not surviving :/  Perhaps scouts should lose out of combat evac too <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  It really sounds like you are upset that sorcs are no longer the easy kills they once were and can now get away from you.</p><p>Edit to add:  Manashield + horse is not as effective an escape mechanism as track + evac.  I'd say as far as a solo survival skill goes, track > manashield and you don't have to invest 24 aa to get that.  I know, it's class defining, blah blah blah.  But don't complain about other classes having a way of escaping someone getting their gank on.</p>

[KodiakAsh]

1. Activating Mana Shield, or taking Damage with Mana Shield On, does not put you into combat. 2. Magi's Shielding Ward does not put you into combat, but no longer regens when you've been engaged in PvP combat. 3. Ward of Sages does not put you into combat, but no longer regens when you've been engaged in PvP combat. 4. Mail of Frost buff doesn't put you in combat, however if you drop below 30% hitpoints and it triggers the ward effect, then you are put into combat.  You'll get the message:<i> "You have entered into combat by using the ward, Frost Ward on yourself while fighting *NAME*</i> That is how it works.  I've tested them all extensively except Ward of Sages (I dropped it after getting enough for STR line spell crit). The usual main complaint is that Wizards are able to Mana Shield up, then evac while 100% protected by their mana/damage or to attempt to escape with their life.  This is usually defeated, however, by decent players who know what they are doing and use the variety of interrupts/snares/stuns/etc (Mana Shield only stops damage, nothing else).  It really doesn't take a genius to figure out that if they haven't engaged you, and are high life, they are probably going to try to Evac.  As said, there's numerous mechanics in place to stop that from happening...let alone items such as the Pumice Stone. Some situations it's unavoidable and the Wizard/Warlock will get away... ...which usually causes someone to come crying to the forums in a post like this. Personally I find the whole Mana Shield [Removed for Content] hilarious myself as a Wizard.  The skill is so situationally useful that the very few times it actually does come in handy someone is always there to complain about how overpowered it is that one time out of a thousand.

[Elephanton]

<p>Manashield cannot be removed with Pumice Stones (probably would take about 5 casts to remove it, by the time it is gone I will be dead).</p><p>And I don't care if sorcs evac under manashield, let them have this.</p><p>I am only agaist the unfair advantage they get due to being able to cast this ward and still remain out-of-combat with full regen and full mount speed, then easily get to opponent who is trying to kite them while manashield is up, then stun, root and destroy with 2 nukes. No chances against this tactic whatsoever.</p><p>Alternatively, make Manashield first thing to be removed with Pumice Stones and alike, this will fix this issue as well.</p><p>Something needs to be done for sure.</p>

[tiredang]

<cite>ElephantonRU wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Manashield cannot be removed with Pumice Stones (probably would take about 5 casts to remove it, by the time it is gone I will be dead).</p><p>And I don't care if sorcs evac under manashield, let them have this.</p><p>I am only agaist the unfair advantage they get due to being able to cast this ward and still remain out-of-combat with full regen and full mount speed, then easily get to opponent who is trying to kite them while manashield is up, then stun, root and destroy with 2 nukes. No chances against this tactic whatsoever.</p><p>Alternatively, make Manashield first thing to be removed with Pumice Stones and alike, this will fix this issue as well.</p><p>Something needs to be done for sure.</p></blockquote><p> My goodness, snare doesn't work I suppose.  I thought the complaint was them getting away, not going to you and engaging in combat.  Hey, you know, for this situation still track > manashield.  So rangers have lost their HUGE innate advantage to kill a sorc before the sorc can even target them.  A quick solution of course is, when you track a sorc, run away, evac!  They won't be able to catch you.  </p><p>Gah, scouts having this type of complaint is, well, silly.  For so long they told sorcs L2P, deal with it, roll a scout, group with a scout etc.  Now that they not only lost their easy fame kills, but have a chance of being killed, they think something needs to be done.  </p><p>Manashield CAN be removed via pumice stone.  And as far as stunning and debuffing goes, all my healers have had to deal with that from scouts, and healers don't have the heads up that scouts have.  In fact, if a sorc is killing you this way, you DO need help.</p><p>I don't play a sorc btw, but I don't think manashield is overpowered.  </p><p>Edit to add: You do carry potions, right?  That right there will stop your above scenario from happening quite so smoothly.</p>

[KodiakAsh]

<cite>ElephantonRU wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Manashield cannot be removed with Pumice Stones (probably would take about 5 casts to remove it, by the time it is gone I will be dead).</p><p>And I don't care if sorcs evac under manashield, let them have this.</p><p>I am only agaist the unfair advantage they get due to being able to cast this ward and still remain out-of-combat with full regen and full mount speed, then easily get to opponent who is trying to kite them while manashield is up, then stun, root and destroy with 2 nukes. No chances against this tactic whatsoever.</p><p>Alternatively, make Manashield first thing to be removed with Pumice Stones and alike, this will fix this issue as well.</p><p>Something needs to be done for sure.</p></blockquote> 1. Mana Shield does get removed by Pumice Stones.  Quite often I might add.  It may not seem like it from an outside view, but try playing a Wizard/Warlock a while and see how quickly it gets removed.  It'll seem like all the time.  The Grass is always greener... 2. If Mana Shield puts us into combat, Evac won't work.  This is a nerf.  No matter how nicely you want to say it isn't, what you are asking for is a nerf. 3. Okay lets face some "facts here" shall we? A. There are numerous Wizard abilities to kite in combat.  Numbing Cold, Ice Flame come to mind.  Both snares that snare with no chance to break on damage. B. Mana Shield when used in combat in higher tiers is situational.  If you open with it and kite, it won't work, because you'll quickly find yourself out of power.  At T6, if I try to open up with Mana Shield against a class like a Ranger then 75% of my mana will be gone before I am able to even cast the first spell with 5.5k mana.  Even "out" of combat power/health regen isn't nearly enough to counter act the massive damage being dealt towards us at the higher tiers. C. If they are going to kill you in 3 spells they could probably just stand there, cast their 3 spells, and kill you regardless of whether or not they kited you in the first place. So your changes really do absolutely nothing to fix what you want them to fix, because they will already be able to do exactly what you didn't want them to do with or without mana shield.  All you are doing is asking to remove a <b>VITAL</b> ability to our survival in PvP that prevents us from being "PvP Token Farm" characters. 4. Personally I don't like that a Pumice Stone removes it at all.  I had to spend 25 AA's to get this ability, only to be removed by a stupid stone that can be exploit sold/bought infinite times once you buy it the first time.  It's so situational that I get to use it, when I do need it, usually it gets removed in PvP and those 25 AA's feel really wasted. Today (about an hour ago) I just had a fight with an even con ranger (57).  He was able to open enough whoop [Removed for Content] on me in 2 seconds that I went from full health to 30% health in that time.  My Frost Ward triggered and now I am stuck fighting.  The only thing I could do was pop mana shield and pray my spells could kill him before he tore through my mana.  Despite the fact he had done approximately 2.7k damage in his initial 2 seconds of attacking me, and had chewed through my 1100 point ward, <b>ON TOP </b>of that he still was able to go through 75% of my mana with mana shield up.  The fact I was able to turn victory around for me had only to do with smart timed stifles/stuns and a freedom of mind potion.  The fight ended with me (mana shield off and him stifled...) with about 200 HP and 300 mana.  If I had Mana Shield up at the very beginning, I would have had 0 mana and would have died shortly there after. The more and more you post, the more and more it sounds like a guy who got beat and is looking for some <b>out of game method</b> for revenge against the player.

[Spag]

Kodiakashii@Nagafen wrote: <blockquote>2. If Mana Shield puts us into combat, Evac won't work.  This is a nerf.  No matter how nicely you want to say it isn't, what you are asking for is a nerf. </blockquote>On my warden, healing myself puts me into combat, which causes my evac to not work.  How is this any different?  I simply want to get away from the gank squad too, but that change was made anyway, and so should it be for manashield.  If you want to use a defensive spell, it should engage you, otherwise try to get your evac off like wardens.

[KodiakAsh]

<cite>Spag wrote:</cite><blockquote>Kodiakashii@Nagafen wrote: <blockquote>2. If Mana Shield puts us into combat, Evac won't work.  This is a nerf.  No matter how nicely you want to say it isn't, what you are asking for is a nerf. </blockquote>On my warden, healing myself puts me into combat, which causes my evac to not work.  How is this any different?  I simply want to get away from the gank squad too, but that change was made anyway, and so should it be for manashield.  If you want to use a defensive spell, it should engage you, otherwise try to get your evac off like wardens.</blockquote> Simple. If you stay out of combat while healing, you could heal forever.  This was the case before.  I have a Warden who is 907 kills and 37 deaths because he could heal out of combat.  The whole problem with being able to heal out of combat is there is no end.  You will regen far more MP than you would ever use healing yourself through damage.  I mean you could sit there healing through damage using less power than you regen for 10 minutes while someone ran themselves out of power trying to kill you then turn around and blast them when they have 0 power. Mana Shield on the other hand has a duration (30 seconds) before it runs out (1 min, 30 seconds recast).  This leaves 1 full minute downtime between having it and not having it.  Once those 30 seconds are over, I have another full minute before I can bring it back up and keep going.  The case in higher tiers is that you really have about 10 seconds before most other DPS classes not only pour through your shield, but also your entire mana bar leaving you with no option to fight (since your DPS is 100% reliant on power). The appropriate example you would want to bring up is being able to heal for 30 seconds...and then no longer be able to heal without engaging. As for getting evac off...I never had a problem getting evac off with or without mana shield (IE: Warden, Shadowknight) simply due to Superb Freedom of Mind potions.

[KodiakAsh]

On another note, I've met more than a few individuals who have countered Mana shield by outlasting it, btw using a variety of kite/root techniques as well as stealth. For example on my ranger, I used to attack, and soon as I see the little mana shield icon I'd detaunt/stealth, and resume attacking in a few seconds <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Elephanton]

<p>Please stop saying about scouts and snares. You are trying to de-rail this conversation to "those overpowered scouts topic" again. Off the 7 classes I play, I have only one scout and he is too young to encounter manashielded sorcs. From other six classes, only 1 class has snare and it is so shity that it still leaves big speed bonus to a sorc on the horse.</p><p>And no matter how nicely you say about why your manashield is not a ward, but face it - manashield is the only ward left in the game that prevents damage done to your HP and yet does not put in-combat. And this is what needs to be addressed.</p>

[Elephanton]

<p>And as you like talking about scouts and how they don't care about manashield because they can interrupt and snare, read <a href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?start=465&topic_id=376056#4281843" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">this quote</a>.</p><p>And now tell me, how can any other non-scout class hope to survive (not even beat, just survive) manashielded sorcs if even rangers cannot?</p><p>Sightless wrote: </p><blockquote><p>A good wizard and warlock with Manashield can destroy a Ranger so don't give us this nonsense. Jamilia has a video of losing to a Manashielded Warlock. I have both a Wizard and Warlock with Manashield and have never died one on one to a scout, including Rangers, never. Am I more skilled? Doubtfull. /shakes his head</p></blockquote>

[tiredang]

<cite>ElephantonRU wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Please stop saying about scouts and snares. You are trying to de-rail this conversation to "those overpowered scouts topic" again. Off the 7 classes I play, I have only one scout and he is too young to encounter manashielded sorcs. From other six classes, only 1 class has snare and it is so [I cannot control my vocabulary] that it still leaves big speed bonus to a sorc on the horse.</p><p>And no matter how nicely you say about why your manashield is not a ward, but face it - manashield is the only ward left in the game that prevents damage done to your HP and yet does not put in-combat. And this is what needs to be addressed.</p></blockquote><p> If you're going to take offense at my messages, please READ my messages.  I don't have a sorc.  I only play healers.  And mana shield really is NOT a ward.  You're damaging them, they just have the ability for that damage to be taken as power instead of hp.  And honestly, since the scenario you were giving required a ranger (wizard had to close the distance with a horse -- what other class could you be talking about?) I addressed that.  </p><p>And healers can beat sorcs 1v1. </p>

[KodiakAsh]

<cite>ElephantonRU wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Please stop saying about scouts and snares. You are trying to de-rail this conversation to "those overpowered scouts topic" again. Off the 7 classes I play, I have only one scout and he is too young to encounter manashielded sorcs. From other six classes, only 1 class has snare and it is so [I cannot control my vocabulary] that it still leaves big speed bonus to a sorc on the horse.</p><p>And no matter how nicely you say about why your manashield is not a ward, but face it - manashield is the only ward left in the game that prevents damage done to your HP and yet does not put in-combat. And this is what needs to be addressed.</p></blockquote> Actually I never once said that scouts were overpowered nor do I think they are overpowered. I won't bore you with a class breakdown (I will if you persist however) however a <b>vast </b>majority of classes in the game (at least 2 whole sets of classes, scouts and mages) have some method of snaring/rooting/fearing/stunning/etc a person from running away <b>OR </b>have some way of breaking out of root/snare themselves.  I speak of only class abilities, not even counting items that do similar effects (I still use the Dark Crystaline Wand a level 25 wand from time to time because of it's snare ability).  That wand alone allows essentially everyone but Shadowknights, Paladins, and scouts have an unbreakable <b>57%</b> snare.  Level 25 item. Okay.  Lets look at what a Ward does. 1. You spend mana to cast the ward. 2. The ward absorbs the damage. Now.  Lets look at what Mana Shield does. 1. You spend no mana to put it on. 2. The ward absorbs the damage <b>at the cost of mana.</b> Notice that little difference at the end? Lets put it on the terms of a Ward however.  Malignant Shroud (Master I) takes 190 mana to cast, and wards for 1788.  Oh look, that's over (barely) a <b>9:1 ratio</b> of HP:Mana absorbed.  <b>OMG NERF NERF NERF.</b>  2:1 was so overpowered that *GASP* [Removed for Content] there's a 9:1 ratio ward in the game! I tell you what.  You give me a 9:1 ratio "ward" as you want to keep calling it, and I'll be happy to let it put me in combat...lol... As for your other nonsense...I believe the best line of that entire thread was... <cite>Sightless wrote:</cite><blockquote>Swipe@Nagafen wrote: <p>...use EVERY tool in the game at my disposal.</p><p>How many Guardians do you know that uses 2 Snares, 1 Root from tinkered items and quests? I do, and it's night and day without them. </p></blockquote>

[KodiakAsh]

Angelyc@Nagafen wrote: <blockquote><p>And healers can beat sorcs 1v1. </p></blockquote> Yes.  Yes they can.  Especially those freaking melee mystics with <b>REAL</b> wards <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Elephanton]

Kodiakashii@Nagafen wrote: <blockquote>Okay.  Lets look at what a Ward does. 1. You spend mana to cast the ward. 2. The ward absorbs the damage <span style="color: #ffff00">at the cost of mana you paid to cast it</span>. Now.  Lets look at what Mana Shield does. 1. You spend no mana to put it on. 2. The ward absorbs the damage <b>at the cost of mana <span style="color: #ffff00">you pay as you are damaged</span>.</b> Notice that little difference at the end? </blockquote><p>Yes this is huge difference I tell ya! <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>After I corrected your words, it should be clear that both things are wards with (merely) their own pros and cons...</p><p>Regular ward pros&cons: You spend less mana per point of absorbed damage, but whole mana is spent upfront, and because you ward may not be used fully, some mana might be spent "for nothing".</p><p>Manashield ward pros&cons: You spend more mana per point of absorbed damage, but mana is spent only as needed (nothing is spent upfront).</p>

[KodiakAsh]

Yes it is a huge difference.  A dramatically huge difference that makes one not like the other.  You can make them semantically sound the same, but they are not the same. The Ward comes with an upfront, low cost with a limited amount of damage ward.  This ward does not direct the damage anywhere, it's simply absorbed, then disappears.  Most single target wards will also heal you after the duration is done as well (meaning it's a <b>heal</b> too)... Mana Shield on the other hand simply<b> diverts hit point damage into mana damage.  You're still taking damage.</b>  You're just taking power damage.  So if you were going to hit someone for 600 hitpoints, you now will hit them for 400 mana. A person with good food and a health totem could do the exact same thing as you describe.  They'd still be taking damage (like Mana Shield!) only it'd be normal hitpoints instead of the damage being converted into power damage.  Many tanks (IE: Guardians, Bezerkers) can easily exploit this by doing exactly what I describe with high food, good totems, and using their massive hitpoints kite people around a bit (I've done it myself with my twink Berserker back in the day to run people out of mana then engage). The problem you are having in understanding is that you still take damage with mana shield on.  It's like flipping a switch that says,<i> "Instead of taking hitpoints, all damage against you will take mana." </i> At best one could argue it's a mitigation buff, since the damage being converted into power is being mitigated by 33%. No one expects you to like people having the ability to switch the hp damage to mana damage. But here's a little tip: If you want something seriously nerfed, and you don't want to look like some guy who lost a fight and came crying to the forums, you should really understand the mechanics of how a skill works first.

[Norrsken]

Kodiakashii@Nagafen wrote: <blockquote>Yes it is a huge difference.  A dramatically huge difference that makes one not like the other.  You can make them semantically sound the same, but they are not the same. The Ward comes with an upfront, low cost with a limited amount of damage ward.  This ward does not direct the damage anywhere, it's simply absorbed, then disappears.  Most single target wards will also heal you after the duration is done as well (meaning it's a <b>heal</b> too)... Mana Shield on the other hand simply<b> diverts hit point damage into mana damage.  You're still taking damage.</b>  You're just taking power damage.  So if you were going to hit someone for 600 hitpoints, you now will hit them for 400 mana. A person with good food and a health totem could do the exact same thing as you describe.  They'd still be taking damage (like Mana Shield!) only it'd be normal hitpoints instead of the damage being converted into power damage.  Many tanks (IE: Guardians, Bezerkers) can easily exploit this by doing exactly what I describe with high food, good totems, and using their massive hitpoints kite people around a bit (I've done it myself with my twink Berserker back in the day to run people out of mana then engage). The problem you are having in understanding is that you still take damage with mana shield on.  It's like flipping a switch that says,<i> "Instead of taking hitpoints, all damage against you will take mana." </i> At best one could argue it's a mitigation buff, since the damage being converted into power is being mitigated by 33%. No one expects you to like people having the ability to switch the hp damage to mana damage. But here's a little tip: If you want something seriously nerfed, and you don't want to look like some guy who lost a fight and came crying to the forums, you should really understand the mechanics of how a skill works first. </blockquote>Except that manashield absorbs 1/3rd of the damage, apart from diverting the other 2/3rds of damage to the power pool. So, if you have a 10k power pool all of it gets zapped, you jsut had a ward up that absorbed 5k of damage. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[KodiakAsh]

Kodiakashii@Nagafen wrote: <blockquote>The problem you are having in understanding is that you still take damage with mana shield on.  It's like flipping a switch that says,<i> "Instead of taking hitpoints, all damage against you will take mana." </i> At best one could argue it's a mitigation buff, since the damage being converted into power is being mitigated by 33%. No one expects you to like people having the ability to switch the hp damage to mana damage. </blockquote> Reading Comprehension +1.

[Dh]

<p>You have 8 pages of people that disagree with you and yet you keep crying.</p><p>Don't like it? Go play another game.</p>

[KodiakAsh]

Also your math is horribly wrong. Lets say you have: 5000 HP 10000 MP You flip on Mana Shield. You essentially now have 20,000 HP (5000 + 15000 converted mana).  You still take damage, only with +33% mitigation for 30 seconds or for 15000 "hitpoints" (mana). <b>NOTE: YOU STILL TAKE DAMAGE.  THIS IS THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN A WARD AND MANA SHIELD.</b>

[HerbertWalker]

<p>A 3000HP repeatable Mystic ward does not need to drag the Mystic into combat.   It only needs to stop him from regaining health/power at top speed.   He should still be permitted to zone/evac and run at top speed.   The guy attacking this Mystic should be permitted to run at top speed and regain health/power at top speed, perhaps until the Mystic returns his attack in the form of engagement.</p><p>The real fix is for the devs to untie and separate the in-combat rules so that they have flexibility like that.   Then they could make critical and detailed balance decisions with tweaks to the various abilities across the classes.</p><p>For another example, a 300HP innate Wizard ward does not need to drag the Wizard into combat, nor does it need to prevent him from running at top speed while regaining health/power at top speed.   The ward does, however, need to be prevented from rejuvenating while being attacked.</p><p>So to say that one type of ward must be designed exactly like some other type of ward, is to not think outside of the box at all.   This is about overall balance, not just about one ability.</p><p>But if what you really want is for the Mystic to be permitted to evac/zone after healing himself, then request that.   Indeed, it is my belief that  healers should be permitted to do those things under the current system.   If there is a way to un-hardcode evac and zone out from "In Combat", it should be done in the name of flexible design.   Balance lies in the flexibility of permitting some specific action for certain abilties, while preventing a similar action for certain other abilities.   You create the abilities different on purpose, as a means of balancing the classes.</p><p>Hence, manashield is treated differently than wards, on purpose in the name of balancing the classes.</p>

[luwegeeeee]

<cite>Ibunubi wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Manashield should put you into combat when you cast it. I think the problem comes with the damage absorption being logged with your damage rather than your heals.</p><p>They should make Manashield put you into combat, but fix the ward procs off items to not put you into combat, such as Vultak eye and Sheild of the Magi, or at least give the option to right click cancel them in your buff window because if those wards are up, they don't have the cancel option and any point of damage puts you into combat.</p></blockquote> i agree.  Manashield should put you into combat if you cast it after in pvp, just like a heal would.  Items like vultak eye should not put you in combat if the ward is on you previous to being attacked.

[Elephanton]

Ulvhamne@Nagafen wrote: <blockquote>Except that manashield absorbs 1/3rd of the damage, apart from diverting the other 2/3rds of damage to the power pool. So, if you have a 10k power pool all of it gets zapped, you just had a ward up that absorbed 5k of damage. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> </blockquote><p>Good catch...</p>

[Elephanton]

Does the MANASHIELD put in combat now with GU38, when just about everything else does it?Could anyone test this so that we could close this discussion..

[matt2004]

<p>deleted my post i got up grumpy and stated my opinion and it was very rude.</p><p>new post;</p><p>i also retract what i said because i have never played a wizard and my opinion would be worthless anyway. i do feel however that it is a defenisve ability and every other class has certain rules to follow so wizards should abide by the same rules as every one else. </p><p>just because they have smaller HP doesnt mean they should have special rules. guardians do little damage but do you think they have high survival rate like a tank should? think again. you are a wizard you hit extremely hard and THAT is why you have smaller hp. </p><p>you are also a tier 1 dps class. why should you have a major shield in the first place? at this point in the game mitigation and resists mean jack squat so we all die at the same speed really. </p>

[Dh]

Well now EVERYTHING puts you in combat... happy? This is what happens when people cry on the forums. Now the game is broken.

[Elephanton]

<p>no more EverRun for you hehe? <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

[matt2004]

<p>actually im more than happy. im just tickled. they have made it harder to haul [Removed for Content]. id rather eat 50 deaths an hour than ever see another zone hopper again. will it still happen? sure it will. but with these changes no where near as often.</p>