Make SS an unlimited pvp zone.

[Rabbitoh]

<p>As the title suggested, make SS a zone where any lvl can be attacked like it use to be.</p><p>On Naggy the swams of grey leeches around the docks are is becoming ridiculous. Anything from lvl 20s to 61's are camping the dock area to leech fame off lvl 70 players engaged in decent pvp fights.</p><p>If these little leeches want to abuse the lvl restrictiions then i suggest SS be opened upped. There is no reason why it shouldn't be as there are plenty of zones for the nooblets to quest in, now that EoF has been introduced.</p><p>Maybe this will stop the x2 of greys that just sit there waiting to leech.</p><p>Molok ranger of Vigilante.</p>

[Norrsken]

<cite>Rabbitoh wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>As the title suggested, make SS a zone where any lvl can be attacked like it use to be.</p><p>On Naggy the swams of grey leeches around the docks are is becoming ridiculous. Anything from lvl 20s to 61's are camping the dock area to leech fame off lvl 70 players engaged in decent pvp fights.</p><p>If these little leeches want to abuse the lvl restrictiions then i suggest SS be opened upped. There is no reason why it shouldn't be as there are plenty of zones for the nooblets to quest in, now that EoF has been introduced.</p><p>Maybe this will stop the x2 of greys that just sit there waiting to leech.</p><p>Molok ranger of Vigilante.</p></blockquote>or, you know... Go to SS with a lvl appropriate toon? <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> its a t6 zone. you shouldnt be upset if there are lvl 45-61 people there. Thats where they are supposed to hang out. And if the lowbie leech scrubs hit you, smack their face in? I do.

[Amphibia]

I agree completely with the OP.

[Norrsken]

<cite>Amphibia wrote:</cite><blockquote>I agree completely with the OP. </blockquote>I sure dont. I wasnt very fond of the roaming raids farming grays there before they slapped a lvl cap on the zone.

[Amphibia]

Ulvhamne@Nagafen wrote: <blockquote><cite>Amphibia wrote:</cite><blockquote>I agree completely with the OP. </blockquote>I sure dont. I wasnt very fond of the roaming raids farming grays there before they slapped a lvl cap on the zone. </blockquote>Well, then we disagree. I was one of the greys that were farmed there constantly. It was hard, but also a lot of fun because it really felt like a dangerous PvP environment. That's something I miss in this game, it was so much better before they ruined it with perma immunity, safe docks and waaaay too strict level range limits..... And now? Raids of greys who are hanging out to leech... safe in immunity and can attack whenever they feel that it's safe to do so. Whole guilds lock at 58-59 now, so that they can do this constantly. Why even level up and give up those huge advantages? Bleh. In my opinion, they should go ahead and remove that limit again. There is no excuse to keep it there anylonger, espesially with the way it is being abused. And greys getting ganked, what does it matter? They lose nothing. No fame and no items. They don't even get XP debt anymore. No penalites at all... so why do they need all this protection?

[Norrsken]

<cite>Amphibia wrote:</cite><blockquote>Ulvhamne@Nagafen wrote: <blockquote><cite>Amphibia wrote:</cite><blockquote>I agree completely with the OP. </blockquote>I sure dont. I wasnt very fond of the roaming raids farming grays there before they slapped a lvl cap on the zone. </blockquote>Well, then we disagree. I was one of the greys that were farmed there constantly. It was hard, but also a lot of fun because it really felt like a dangerous PvP environment. That's something I miss in this game, it was so much better before they ruined it with perma immunity, safe docks and waaaay too strict level range limits..... And now? Raids of greys who are hanging out to leech... safe in immunity and can attack whenever they feel that it's safe to do so. Whole guilds lock at 58-59 now, so that they can do this constantly. Why even level up and give up those huge advantages? Bleh. In my opinion, they should go ahead and remove that limit again. There is no excuse to keep it there anylonger, espesially with the way it is being abused. And greys getting ganked, what does it matter? They lose nothing. No fame and no items. They don't even get XP debt anymore. No penalites at all... so why do they need all this protection? </blockquote>Or, people at lvl cap could go to lvl cap zones? <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> And yah, I know there arent any good zones since in KoS everyone skydives, and in LP, there is aggro everywhere. But seriously, SS is a t6 zone. Complaining about t5-6 toons being unattackable there seems a bit off. And why arent you getting the same sense of danger with the gray raids? you sure as hell couldnt do anything to the red raids, as you cant to the gray ones. Shoudnt matter much, should it?

[Amphibia]

Ulvhamne@Nagafen wrote: <blockquote><cite>Amphibia wrote:</cite><blockquote>Ulvhamne@Nagafen wrote: <blockquote><cite>Amphibia wrote:</cite><blockquote>I agree completely with the OP. </blockquote>I sure dont. I wasnt very fond of the roaming raids farming grays there before they slapped a lvl cap on the zone. </blockquote>Well, then we disagree. I was one of the greys that were farmed there constantly. It was hard, but also a lot of fun because it really felt like a dangerous PvP environment. That's something I miss in this game, it was so much better before they ruined it with perma immunity, safe docks and waaaay too strict level range limits..... And now? Raids of greys who are hanging out to leech... safe in immunity and can attack whenever they feel that it's safe to do so. Whole guilds lock at 58-59 now, so that they can do this constantly. Why even level up and give up those huge advantages? Bleh. In my opinion, they should go ahead and remove that limit again. There is no excuse to keep it there anylonger, espesially with the way it is being abused. And greys getting ganked, what does it matter? They lose nothing. No fame and no items. They don't even get XP debt anymore. No penalites at all... so why do they need all this protection? </blockquote>Or, people at lvl cap could go to lvl cap zones? <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> And yah, I know there arent any good zones since in KoS everyone skydives, and in LP, there is aggro everywhere. But seriously, SS is a t6 zone. Complaining about t5-6 toons being unattackable there seems a bit off. And why arent you getting the same sense of danger with the gray raids? you sure as hell couldnt do anything to the red raids, as you cant to the gray ones. Shoudnt matter much, should it? </blockquote> Actually, I'm not a big fan of level range limits in general. And yes, you are right that Loping Plain and KoS sucks for PvP. For the exact reasons you just mentioned. With all the leeching going on, I don't think it is unreasonable at all to ask for something to change. Alternatively, they could make level range limits swing both ways - reds can't attack greys, and greys can't attack reds. Or make red cons as impossible to beat for greys as a red con mob would be. Maybe then they would think twice about attacking... As for the sense of danger, hehe... were you even there? It just doesn't sound as if you were. Of course I couldn't kill the red cons that were hunting me, but I could run... I could outsmart them sometimes, and I actually had to look over my shoulder, which is just fine on a PvP server.

[Norrsken]

<cite>Amphibia wrote:</cite><blockquote>Ulvhamne@Nagafen wrote: <blockquote><cite>Amphibia wrote:</cite><blockquote>Ulvhamne@Nagafen wrote: <blockquote><cite>Amphibia wrote:</cite><blockquote>I agree completely with the OP. </blockquote>I sure dont. I wasnt very fond of the roaming raids farming grays there before they slapped a lvl cap on the zone. </blockquote>Well, then we disagree. I was one of the greys that were farmed there constantly. It was hard, but also a lot of fun because it really felt like a dangerous PvP environment. That's something I miss in this game, it was so much better before they ruined it with perma immunity, safe docks and waaaay too strict level range limits..... And now? Raids of greys who are hanging out to leech... safe in immunity and can attack whenever they feel that it's safe to do so. Whole guilds lock at 58-59 now, so that they can do this constantly. Why even level up and give up those huge advantages? Bleh. In my opinion, they should go ahead and remove that limit again. There is no excuse to keep it there anylonger, espesially with the way it is being abused. And greys getting ganked, what does it matter? They lose nothing. No fame and no items. They don't even get XP debt anymore. No penalites at all... so why do they need all this protection? </blockquote>Or, people at lvl cap could go to lvl cap zones? <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> And yah, I know there arent any good zones since in KoS everyone skydives, and in LP, there is aggro everywhere. But seriously, SS is a t6 zone. Complaining about t5-6 toons being unattackable there seems a bit off. And why arent you getting the same sense of danger with the gray raids? you sure as hell couldnt do anything to the red raids, as you cant to the gray ones. Shoudnt matter much, should it? </blockquote> Actually, I'm not a big fan of level range limits in general. And yes, you are right that Loping Plain and KoS sucks for PvP. For the exact reasons you just mentioned. With all the leeching going on, I don't think it is unreasonable at all to ask for something to change. Alternatively, they could make level range limits swing both ways - reds can't attack greys, and greys can't attack reds. Or make red cons as impossible to beat for greys as a red con mob would be. Maybe then they would think twice about attacking... As for the sense of danger, hehe... were you even there? It just doesn't sound as if you were. Of course I couldn't kill the red cons that were hunting me, but I could run... I could outsmart them sometimes, and I actually had to look over my shoulder, which is just fine on a PvP server. </blockquote>Oh yes, I were there. I couldnt get a decent pvp fight woithout a [I cannot control my vocabulary] raid popping in. Actually, the very toon in my sig were the first one to get into that hassle. And if you could outrun the roaming raids, well, you were in luch. What I usually had was a raid dropping from a carpet, snaring or rooting me and then everyone hit their fastest attack to land an attack to get faction before I died. I was usually a 2-3 second ordeal. And oh yeah, the revive ponts and carpets were most of the time camped. It wasnt a sense of danger, it was a sense of utter futility. And hell yeah, make reds more dangerous to grays. Make it near impossible to land stuff on someone 20 lvls above you, then you can take a whack at them while they proceed to oneshot your group one by one. Im perfectly fine with that option. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Another option would be to change how pvp works altogether, making levels mean close to nothing apart from the skills you get. Damage is scaled to a specific set (ie mentored to a certain level of effectiveness) so a lvl 70s advantage is just that they ahve more skills, not that their skills do a [Removed for Content] more damage. A lvl 10 will still be severely gimped compared to a lvl 70. And due to everyone having a fair chance (well, not really, if its a lvl 10 vs a lvl 70) just remove level ranges and let the mayhem begin. Perhaps make it so that you wont lose/gain anything of the level spread is greater than 10-15% (decided from the lower level guy). Still, everyone is attackable. More pvp, more fun.

[rvbarton]

<cite>Amphibia wrote:</cite><blockquote>Ulvhamne@Nagafen wrote: <blockquote><cite>Amphibia wrote:</cite><blockquote>I agree completely with the OP. </blockquote>I sure dont. I wasnt very fond of the roaming raids farming grays there before they slapped a lvl cap on the zone. </blockquote>Well, then we disagree. I was one of the greys that were farmed there constantly. It was hard, but also a lot of fun because it really felt like a dangerous PvP environment. That's something I miss in this game, it was so much better before they ruined it with perma immunity, safe docks and waaaay too strict level range limits..... And now? Raids of greys who are hanging out to leech... safe in immunity and can attack whenever they feel that it's safe to do so. Whole guilds lock at 58-59 now, so that they can do this constantly. Why even level up and give up those huge advantages? Bleh. In my opinion, they should go ahead and remove that limit again. There is no excuse to keep it there anylonger, espesially with the way it is being abused. And greys getting ganked, what does it matter? They lose nothing. No fame and no items. They don't even get XP debt anymore. No penalites at all... so why do they need all this protection? </blockquote> go to Loping Plains then... 

[Tarlok]

Most players now don't want to be level 50 questing there and have to deal with the level 70's.  There is no way around going there outside of hunting the t6 zone in eof and you have to go there if you want the free carpet.  I would probably not level past 52 or so if ss was made unlimited again.  Its unfortunate that the expoiters have found a way to leech faction there but as all you leet players are so fond of saying, learn to adapt.

[Amphibia]

Ulvhamne@Nagafen wrote: <blockquote><cite>Amphibia wrote:</cite><blockquote>Ulvhamne@Nagafen wrote: <blockquote><cite>Amphibia wrote:</cite><blockquote>Ulvhamne@Nagafen wrote: <blockquote><cite>Amphibia wrote:</cite><blockquote>I agree completely with the OP. </blockquote>I sure dont. I wasnt very fond of the roaming raids farming grays there before they slapped a lvl cap on the zone. </blockquote>Well, then we disagree. I was one of the greys that were farmed there constantly. It was hard, but also a lot of fun because it really felt like a dangerous PvP environment. That's something I miss in this game, it was so much better before they ruined it with perma immunity, safe docks and waaaay too strict level range limits..... And now? Raids of greys who are hanging out to leech... safe in immunity and can attack whenever they feel that it's safe to do so. Whole guilds lock at 58-59 now, so that they can do this constantly. Why even level up and give up those huge advantages? Bleh. In my opinion, they should go ahead and remove that limit again. There is no excuse to keep it there anylonger, espesially with the way it is being abused. And greys getting ganked, what does it matter? They lose nothing. No fame and no items. They don't even get XP debt anymore. No penalites at all... so why do they need all this protection? </blockquote>Or, people at lvl cap could go to lvl cap zones? <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> And yah, I know there arent any good zones since in KoS everyone skydives, and in LP, there is aggro everywhere. But seriously, SS is a t6 zone. Complaining about t5-6 toons being unattackable there seems a bit off. And why arent you getting the same sense of danger with the gray raids? you sure as hell couldnt do anything to the red raids, as you cant to the gray ones. Shoudnt matter much, should it? </blockquote> Actually, I'm not a big fan of level range limits in general. And yes, you are right that Loping Plain and KoS sucks for PvP. For the exact reasons you just mentioned. With all the leeching going on, I don't think it is unreasonable at all to ask for something to change. Alternatively, they could make level range limits swing both ways - reds can't attack greys, and greys can't attack reds. Or make red cons as impossible to beat for greys as a red con mob would be. Maybe then they would think twice about attacking... As for the sense of danger, hehe... were you even there? It just doesn't sound as if you were. Of course I couldn't kill the red cons that were hunting me, but I could run... I could outsmart them sometimes, and I actually had to look over my shoulder, which is just fine on a PvP server. </blockquote>Oh yes, I were there. I couldnt get a decent pvp fight woithout a [I cannot control my vocabulary] raid popping in. Actually, the very toon in my sig were the first one to get into that hassle. And if you could outrun the roaming raids, well, you were in luch. What I usually had was a raid dropping from a carpet, snaring or rooting me and then everyone hit their fastest attack to land an attack to get faction before I died. I was usually a 2-3 second ordeal. And oh yeah, the revive ponts and carpets were most of the time camped. It wasnt a sense of danger, it was a sense of utter futility. And hell yeah, make reds more dangerous to grays. Make it near impossible to land stuff on someone 20 lvls above you, then you can take a whack at them while they proceed to oneshot your group one by one. Im perfectly fine with that option. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Another option would be to change how pvp works altogether, making levels mean close to nothing apart from the skills you get. Damage is scaled to a specific set (ie mentored to a certain level of effectiveness) so a lvl 70s advantage is just that they ahve more skills, not that their skills do a [I cannot control my vocabulary] more damage. A lvl 10 will still be severely gimped compared to a lvl 70. And due to everyone having a fair chance (well, not really, if its a lvl 10 vs a lvl 70) just remove level ranges and let the mayhem begin. Perhaps make it so that you wont lose/gain anything of the level spread is greater than 10-15% (decided from the lower level guy). Still, everyone is attackable. More pvp, more fun. </blockquote> No, I couldn't outrun raids... but I ran from quite a few groups and solo hunters. One will always feel utter futility against raids - at level 70 I still get rolled big time with minimal chances of escape if I come across one of those... Anyway, your idea sounds very interesting.... allthough I'm sure there are issues with it though, as there are issues with everything. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Ok, so everyone would be white con to eachother all the way from 10-70 right? But you can see the number behind their name, as today. The first thought I had was that while a level 10 will be able to land spells on me as if we were the same level, I'll be wearing pieces of the level 70 PvP and EoF fabled gear, and have all those skills in adept 3/master 1 version + 100 AA points ... while he has no choice but to wear noob gear and have 2 nukes.... gimped doesn't even begin to describe that, lol. I would probably destroy him without even trying. As for gear and spells scaling... what would they scale to? Not your opponent, that wouldn't work as this game is very faction and group based. But maybe scale with the zone you are in, perhaps? I'm sure none of us sees all the possible issues with this, but before I can think of more problems, or someone else points them out - I think it sounds like a possibly good idea. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Amphibia]

<cite>rvbarton wrote:</cite><blockquote> go to Loping Plains then...  </blockquote> Loping Plains is kinda remote and usually empty. There are other reasons for it also. Maybe if you get into the habbit of actually reading a thread before throwing in your 2cp, they might actually be worth concidering. But until then.... not really.

[Norrsken]

<cite>Amphibia wrote:</cite><blockquote>Ulvhamne@Nagafen wrote: <blockquote><cite>Amphibia wrote:</cite><blockquote>Ulvhamne@Nagafen wrote: <blockquote><cite>Amphibia wrote:</cite><blockquote>Ulvhamne@Nagafen wrote: <blockquote><cite>Amphibia wrote:</cite><blockquote>I agree completely with the OP. </blockquote>I sure dont. I wasnt very fond of the roaming raids farming grays there before they slapped a lvl cap on the zone. </blockquote>Well, then we disagree. I was one of the greys that were farmed there constantly. It was hard, but also a lot of fun because it really felt like a dangerous PvP environment. That's something I miss in this game, it was so much better before they ruined it with perma immunity, safe docks and waaaay too strict level range limits..... And now? Raids of greys who are hanging out to leech... safe in immunity and can attack whenever they feel that it's safe to do so. Whole guilds lock at 58-59 now, so that they can do this constantly. Why even level up and give up those huge advantages? Bleh. In my opinion, they should go ahead and remove that limit again. There is no excuse to keep it there anylonger, espesially with the way it is being abused. And greys getting ganked, what does it matter? They lose nothing. No fame and no items. They don't even get XP debt anymore. No penalites at all... so why do they need all this protection? </blockquote>Or, people at lvl cap could go to lvl cap zones? <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> And yah, I know there arent any good zones since in KoS everyone skydives, and in LP, there is aggro everywhere. But seriously, SS is a t6 zone. Complaining about t5-6 toons being unattackable there seems a bit off. And why arent you getting the same sense of danger with the gray raids? you sure as hell couldnt do anything to the red raids, as you cant to the gray ones. Shoudnt matter much, should it? </blockquote> Actually, I'm not a big fan of level range limits in general. And yes, you are right that Loping Plain and KoS sucks for PvP. For the exact reasons you just mentioned. With all the leeching going on, I don't think it is unreasonable at all to ask for something to change. Alternatively, they could make level range limits swing both ways - reds can't attack greys, and greys can't attack reds. Or make red cons as impossible to beat for greys as a red con mob would be. Maybe then they would think twice about attacking... As for the sense of danger, hehe... were you even there? It just doesn't sound as if you were. Of course I couldn't kill the red cons that were hunting me, but I could run... I could outsmart them sometimes, and I actually had to look over my shoulder, which is just fine on a PvP server. </blockquote>Oh yes, I were there. I couldnt get a decent pvp fight woithout a [I cannot control my vocabulary] raid popping in. Actually, the very toon in my sig were the first one to get into that hassle. And if you could outrun the roaming raids, well, you were in luch. What I usually had was a raid dropping from a carpet, snaring or rooting me and then everyone hit their fastest attack to land an attack to get faction before I died. I was usually a 2-3 second ordeal. And oh yeah, the revive ponts and carpets were most of the time camped. It wasnt a sense of danger, it was a sense of utter futility. And hell yeah, make reds more dangerous to grays. Make it near impossible to land stuff on someone 20 lvls above you, then you can take a whack at them while they proceed to oneshot your group one by one. Im perfectly fine with that option. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Another option would be to change how pvp works altogether, making levels mean close to nothing apart from the skills you get. Damage is scaled to a specific set (ie mentored to a certain level of effectiveness) so a lvl 70s advantage is just that they ahve more skills, not that their skills do a [I cannot control my vocabulary] more damage. A lvl 10 will still be severely gimped compared to a lvl 70. And due to everyone having a fair chance (well, not really, if its a lvl 10 vs a lvl 70) just remove level ranges and let the mayhem begin. Perhaps make it so that you wont lose/gain anything of the level spread is greater than 10-15% (decided from the lower level guy). Still, everyone is attackable. More pvp, more fun. </blockquote> No, I couldn't outrun raids... but I ran from quite a few groups and solo hunters. One will always feel utter futility against raids - at level 70 I still get rolled big time with minimal chances of escape if I come across one of those... Anyway, your idea sounds very interesting.... allthough I'm sure there are issues with it though, as there are issues with everything. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Ok, so everyone would be white con to eachother all the way from 10-70 right? But you can see the number behind their name, as today. The first thought I had was that while a level 10 will be able to land spells on me as if we were the same level, I'll be wearing pieces of the level 70 PvP and EoF fabled gear, and have all those skills in adept 3/master 1 version + 100 AA points ... while he has no choice but to wear noob gear and have 2 nukes.... gimped doesn't even begin to describe that, lol. I would probably destroy him without even trying. As for gear and spells scaling... what would they scale to? Not your opponent, that wouldn't work as this game is very faction and group based. But maybe scale with the zone you are in, perhaps? I'm sure none of us sees all the possible issues with this, but before I can think of more problems, or someone else points them out - I think it sounds like a possibly good idea. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> </blockquote>Just use the %. You get the straight % of what the gear gives you. Not the hard stats, or the hard resists, or the hard damage or the hard health. And no, its not impossible to setup a decent scaling system. And how would it be more gimped than a 45 vs a 70, pray tell? And, guess what, I've tried MMOs that utilized such systems. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> I liked them better than the silly lvl range system of eq2.

[Amphibia]

Ulvhamne@Nagafen wrote: <blockquote><cite>Amphibia wrote:</cite><blockquote>Ulvhamne@Nagafen wrote: <blockquote><cite>Amphibia wrote:</cite><blockquote>Ulvhamne@Nagafen wrote: <blockquote><cite>Amphibia wrote:</cite><blockquote>Ulvhamne@Nagafen wrote: <blockquote><cite>Amphibia wrote:</cite><blockquote>I agree completely with the OP. </blockquote>I sure dont. I wasnt very fond of the roaming raids farming grays there before they slapped a lvl cap on the zone. </blockquote>Well, then we disagree. I was one of the greys that were farmed there constantly. It was hard, but also a lot of fun because it really felt like a dangerous PvP environment. That's something I miss in this game, it was so much better before they ruined it with perma immunity, safe docks and waaaay too strict level range limits..... And now? Raids of greys who are hanging out to leech... safe in immunity and can attack whenever they feel that it's safe to do so. Whole guilds lock at 58-59 now, so that they can do this constantly. Why even level up and give up those huge advantages? Bleh. In my opinion, they should go ahead and remove that limit again. There is no excuse to keep it there anylonger, espesially with the way it is being abused. And greys getting ganked, what does it matter? They lose nothing. No fame and no items. They don't even get XP debt anymore. No penalites at all... so why do they need all this protection? </blockquote>Or, people at lvl cap could go to lvl cap zones? <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> And yah, I know there arent any good zones since in KoS everyone skydives, and in LP, there is aggro everywhere. But seriously, SS is a t6 zone. Complaining about t5-6 toons being unattackable there seems a bit off. And why arent you getting the same sense of danger with the gray raids? you sure as hell couldnt do anything to the red raids, as you cant to the gray ones. Shoudnt matter much, should it? </blockquote> Actually, I'm not a big fan of level range limits in general. And yes, you are right that Loping Plain and KoS sucks for PvP. For the exact reasons you just mentioned. With all the leeching going on, I don't think it is unreasonable at all to ask for something to change. Alternatively, they could make level range limits swing both ways - reds can't attack greys, and greys can't attack reds. Or make red cons as impossible to beat for greys as a red con mob would be. Maybe then they would think twice about attacking... As for the sense of danger, hehe... were you even there? It just doesn't sound as if you were. Of course I couldn't kill the red cons that were hunting me, but I could run... I could outsmart them sometimes, and I actually had to look over my shoulder, which is just fine on a PvP server. </blockquote>Oh yes, I were there. I couldnt get a decent pvp fight woithout a [I cannot control my vocabulary] raid popping in. Actually, the very toon in my sig were the first one to get into that hassle. And if you could outrun the roaming raids, well, you were in luch. What I usually had was a raid dropping from a carpet, snaring or rooting me and then everyone hit their fastest attack to land an attack to get faction before I died. I was usually a 2-3 second ordeal. And oh yeah, the revive ponts and carpets were most of the time camped. It wasnt a sense of danger, it was a sense of utter futility. And hell yeah, make reds more dangerous to grays. Make it near impossible to land stuff on someone 20 lvls above you, then you can take a whack at them while they proceed to oneshot your group one by one. Im perfectly fine with that option. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Another option would be to change how pvp works altogether, making levels mean close to nothing apart from the skills you get. Damage is scaled to a specific set (ie mentored to a certain level of effectiveness) so a lvl 70s advantage is just that they ahve more skills, not that their skills do a [I cannot control my vocabulary] more damage. A lvl 10 will still be severely gimped compared to a lvl 70. And due to everyone having a fair chance (well, not really, if its a lvl 10 vs a lvl 70) just remove level ranges and let the mayhem begin. Perhaps make it so that you wont lose/gain anything of the level spread is greater than 10-15% (decided from the lower level guy). Still, everyone is attackable. More pvp, more fun. </blockquote> No, I couldn't outrun raids... but I ran from quite a few groups and solo hunters. One will always feel utter futility against raids - at level 70 I still get rolled big time with minimal chances of escape if I come across one of those... Anyway, your idea sounds very interesting.... allthough I'm sure there are issues with it though, as there are issues with everything. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Ok, so everyone would be white con to eachother all the way from 10-70 right? But you can see the number behind their name, as today. The first thought I had was that while a level 10 will be able to land spells on me as if we were the same level, I'll be wearing pieces of the level 70 PvP and EoF fabled gear, and have all those skills in adept 3/master 1 version + 100 AA points ... while he has no choice but to wear noob gear and have 2 nukes.... gimped doesn't even begin to describe that, lol. I would probably destroy him without even trying. As for gear and spells scaling... what would they scale to? Not your opponent, that wouldn't work as this game is very faction and group based. But maybe scale with the zone you are in, perhaps? I'm sure none of us sees all the possible issues with this, but before I can think of more problems, or someone else points them out - I think it sounds like a possibly good idea. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> </blockquote>Just use the %. You get the straight % of what the gear gives you. Not the hard stats, or the hard resists, or the hard damage or the hard health. And no, its not impossible to setup a decent scaling system. And how would it be more gimped than a 45 vs a 70, pray tell? And, guess what, I've tried MMOs that utilized such systems. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> I liked them better than the silly lvl range system of eq2. </blockquote>Why not just let it scale to the zone? So that if you're level 70 and zone into Antonica, then you're still 70 PvE wise, but to your opponents you are only level 20. In TS, you're 30, in EL you're 40 and so on.... Or did you want it to scale right down to 10 regardless of what zone you're in?

[rvbarton]

<cite>Amphibia wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>rvbarton wrote:</cite><blockquote> go to Loping Plains then...  </blockquote> Loping Plains is kinda remote and usually empty. There are other reasons for it also. Maybe if you get into the habbit of actually reading a thread before throwing in your 2cp, they might actually be worth concidering. But until then.... not really. </blockquote>aww.  did I strike a nerve?  Poor baby.  Can't leech fame anymore and can't kill those that leech off of you?  <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  Poor baby.

[Norrsken]

<cite>Amphibia wrote:</cite><blockquote>Ulvhamne@Nagafen wrote: <blockquote><cite>Amphibia wrote:</cite><blockquote>Ulvhamne@Nagafen wrote: <blockquote><cite>Amphibia wrote:</cite><blockquote>Ulvhamne@Nagafen wrote: <blockquote><cite>Amphibia wrote:</cite><blockquote>Ulvhamne@Nagafen wrote: <blockquote><cite>Amphibia wrote:</cite><blockquote>I agree completely with the OP. </blockquote>I sure dont. I wasnt very fond of the roaming raids farming grays there before they slapped a lvl cap on the zone. </blockquote>Well, then we disagree. I was one of the greys that were farmed there constantly. It was hard, but also a lot of fun because it really felt like a dangerous PvP environment. That's something I miss in this game, it was so much better before they ruined it with perma immunity, safe docks and waaaay too strict level range limits..... And now? Raids of greys who are hanging out to leech... safe in immunity and can attack whenever they feel that it's safe to do so. Whole guilds lock at 58-59 now, so that they can do this constantly. Why even level up and give up those huge advantages? Bleh. In my opinion, they should go ahead and remove that limit again. There is no excuse to keep it there anylonger, espesially with the way it is being abused. And greys getting ganked, what does it matter? They lose nothing. No fame and no items. They don't even get XP debt anymore. No penalites at all... so why do they need all this protection? </blockquote>Or, people at lvl cap could go to lvl cap zones? <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> And yah, I know there arent any good zones since in KoS everyone skydives, and in LP, there is aggro everywhere. But seriously, SS is a t6 zone. Complaining about t5-6 toons being unattackable there seems a bit off. And why arent you getting the same sense of danger with the gray raids? you sure as hell couldnt do anything to the red raids, as you cant to the gray ones. Shoudnt matter much, should it? </blockquote> Actually, I'm not a big fan of level range limits in general. And yes, you are right that Loping Plain and KoS sucks for PvP. For the exact reasons you just mentioned. With all the leeching going on, I don't think it is unreasonable at all to ask for something to change. Alternatively, they could make level range limits swing both ways - reds can't attack greys, and greys can't attack reds. Or make red cons as impossible to beat for greys as a red con mob would be. Maybe then they would think twice about attacking... As for the sense of danger, hehe... were you even there? It just doesn't sound as if you were. Of course I couldn't kill the red cons that were hunting me, but I could run... I could outsmart them sometimes, and I actually had to look over my shoulder, which is just fine on a PvP server. </blockquote>Oh yes, I were there. I couldnt get a decent pvp fight woithout a [I cannot control my vocabulary] raid popping in. Actually, the very toon in my sig were the first one to get into that hassle. And if you could outrun the roaming raids, well, you were in luch. What I usually had was a raid dropping from a carpet, snaring or rooting me and then everyone hit their fastest attack to land an attack to get faction before I died. I was usually a 2-3 second ordeal. And oh yeah, the revive ponts and carpets were most of the time camped. It wasnt a sense of danger, it was a sense of utter futility. And hell yeah, make reds more dangerous to grays. Make it near impossible to land stuff on someone 20 lvls above you, then you can take a whack at them while they proceed to oneshot your group one by one. Im perfectly fine with that option. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Another option would be to change how pvp works altogether, making levels mean close to nothing apart from the skills you get. Damage is scaled to a specific set (ie mentored to a certain level of effectiveness) so a lvl 70s advantage is just that they ahve more skills, not that their skills do a [I cannot control my vocabulary] more damage. A lvl 10 will still be severely gimped compared to a lvl 70. And due to everyone having a fair chance (well, not really, if its a lvl 10 vs a lvl 70) just remove level ranges and let the mayhem begin. Perhaps make it so that you wont lose/gain anything of the level spread is greater than 10-15% (decided from the lower level guy). Still, everyone is attackable. More pvp, more fun. </blockquote> No, I couldn't outrun raids... but I ran from quite a few groups and solo hunters. One will always feel utter futility against raids - at level 70 I still get rolled big time with minimal chances of escape if I come across one of those... Anyway, your idea sounds very interesting.... allthough I'm sure there are issues with it though, as there are issues with everything. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Ok, so everyone would be white con to eachother all the way from 10-70 right? But you can see the number behind their name, as today. The first thought I had was that while a level 10 will be able to land spells on me as if we were the same level, I'll be wearing pieces of the level 70 PvP and EoF fabled gear, and have all those skills in adept 3/master 1 version + 100 AA points ... while he has no choice but to wear noob gear and have 2 nukes.... gimped doesn't even begin to describe that, lol. I would probably destroy him without even trying. As for gear and spells scaling... what would they scale to? Not your opponent, that wouldn't work as this game is very faction and group based. But maybe scale with the zone you are in, perhaps? I'm sure none of us sees all the possible issues with this, but before I can think of more problems, or someone else points them out - I think it sounds like a possibly good idea. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> </blockquote>Just use the %. You get the straight % of what the gear gives you. Not the hard stats, or the hard resists, or the hard damage or the hard health. And no, its not impossible to setup a decent scaling system. And how would it be more gimped than a 45 vs a 70, pray tell? And, guess what, I've tried MMOs that utilized such systems. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> I liked them better than the silly lvl range system of eq2. </blockquote>Why not just let it scale to the zone? So that if you're level 70 and zone into Antonica, then you're still 70 PvE wise, but to your opponents you are only level 20. In TS, you're 30, in EL you're 40 and so on.... Or did you want it to scale right down to 10 regardless of what zone you're in? </blockquote>No, I want the PvP and PvE systems (almost) completely separated. Normalize the damage for spells to a fixed level of pve, or whatever. Just normalize it to a fixed point. All the spells of the same line will always do the same damage in pvp. The only advantage gained from more pve levels would be more skills to toy with. Not greater damage, or ten times the health and so on. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> That way, no level ranges would ever be needed (removing some silly stunts people pull to circumvent them), level locking would be a thing of the past and mentoring wouldnt be a problem in pvp. Quite a few odd things would go away. (And we would prolly gain a few new ones) Some problems would be heals. How would you decide if the pvp or pve version would be applied? Because having pvp heals in pve would either be vastly overpowered, or completely gimpified. And using pve heals would be the same deal. Largest problem with the whole concept really. And Im still thinking about that one. Automatic mentoring to the level at hand would probably be neat as well, if they ever fix mentoring. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Only thing I see as a potential problem with that is people exploiting holes in it. that and always bringing raids of people 4 or 8 levels above you. But meh. That would serve to make levellocking more dangerous and the lower tiers more full of action so I dont mind that too much. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Amphibia]

<cite>rvbarton wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Amphibia wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>rvbarton wrote:</cite><blockquote> go to Loping Plains then...  </blockquote> Loping Plains is kinda remote and usually empty. There are other reasons for it also. Maybe if you get into the habbit of actually reading a thread before throwing in your 2cp, they might actually be worth concidering. But until then.... not really. </blockquote>aww.  did I strike a nerve?  Poor baby.  Can't leech fame anymore and can't kill those that leech off of you?  <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  Poor baby. </blockquote> Yeah, poor poor me... can't leech anymore.... <img src="/smilies/c30b4198e0907b23b8246bdd52aa1c3c.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Anyway, I appreaciate your contribution to this discussion, and I'm sure everyone who reads it will take your thoughts into concideration. Thank you for sharing! <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Norrsken]

<cite>Amphibia wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>rvbarton wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Amphibia wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>rvbarton wrote:</cite><blockquote> go to Loping Plains then...  </blockquote> Loping Plains is kinda remote and usually empty. There are other reasons for it also. Maybe if you get into the habbit of actually reading a thread before throwing in your 2cp, they might actually be worth concidering. But until then.... not really. </blockquote>aww.  did I strike a nerve?  Poor baby.  Can't leech fame anymore and can't kill those that leech off of you?  <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  Poor baby. </blockquote> Yeah, poor poor me... can't leech anymore.... <img src="/smilies/c30b4198e0907b23b8246bdd52aa1c3c.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Anyway, I appreaciate your contribution to this discussion, and I'm sure everyone who reads it will take your thoughts into concideration. Thank you for sharing! <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> </blockquote>Lol irl. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Good comeback.

[Bi]

no offense lyea /rvbarton, but were you dropped on your head as a small child from a great height? because it certainly looks like this is the case

[Amphibia]

Ulvhamne@Nagafen wrote: <blockquote><cite>Amphibia wrote:</cite><blockquote>Ulvhamne@Nagafen wrote: <blockquote><cite>Amphibia wrote:</cite><blockquote>Ulvhamne@Nagafen wrote: <blockquote><cite>Amphibia wrote:</cite><blockquote>Ulvhamne@Nagafen wrote: <blockquote><cite>Amphibia wrote:</cite><blockquote>Ulvhamne@Nagafen wrote: <blockquote><cite>Amphibia wrote:</cite><blockquote>I agree completely with the OP. </blockquote>I sure dont. I wasnt very fond of the roaming raids farming grays there before they slapped a lvl cap on the zone. </blockquote>Well, then we disagree. I was one of the greys that were farmed there constantly. It was hard, but also a lot of fun because it really felt like a dangerous PvP environment. That's something I miss in this game, it was so much better before they ruined it with perma immunity, safe docks and waaaay too strict level range limits..... And now? Raids of greys who are hanging out to leech... safe in immunity and can attack whenever they feel that it's safe to do so. Whole guilds lock at 58-59 now, so that they can do this constantly. Why even level up and give up those huge advantages? Bleh. In my opinion, they should go ahead and remove that limit again. There is no excuse to keep it there anylonger, espesially with the way it is being abused. And greys getting ganked, what does it matter? They lose nothing. No fame and no items. They don't even get XP debt anymore. No penalites at all... so why do they need all this protection? </blockquote>Or, people at lvl cap could go to lvl cap zones? <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> And yah, I know there arent any good zones since in KoS everyone skydives, and in LP, there is aggro everywhere. But seriously, SS is a t6 zone. Complaining about t5-6 toons being unattackable there seems a bit off. And why arent you getting the same sense of danger with the gray raids? you sure as hell couldnt do anything to the red raids, as you cant to the gray ones. Shoudnt matter much, should it? </blockquote> Actually, I'm not a big fan of level range limits in general. And yes, you are right that Loping Plain and KoS sucks for PvP. For the exact reasons you just mentioned. With all the leeching going on, I don't think it is unreasonable at all to ask for something to change. Alternatively, they could make level range limits swing both ways - reds can't attack greys, and greys can't attack reds. Or make red cons as impossible to beat for greys as a red con mob would be. Maybe then they would think twice about attacking... As for the sense of danger, hehe... were you even there? It just doesn't sound as if you were. Of course I couldn't kill the red cons that were hunting me, but I could run... I could outsmart them sometimes, and I actually had to look over my shoulder, which is just fine on a PvP server. </blockquote>Oh yes, I were there. I couldnt get a decent pvp fight woithout a [I cannot control my vocabulary] raid popping in. Actually, the very toon in my sig were the first one to get into that hassle. And if you could outrun the roaming raids, well, you were in luch. What I usually had was a raid dropping from a carpet, snaring or rooting me and then everyone hit their fastest attack to land an attack to get faction before I died. I was usually a 2-3 second ordeal. And oh yeah, the revive ponts and carpets were most of the time camped. It wasnt a sense of danger, it was a sense of utter futility. And hell yeah, make reds more dangerous to grays. Make it near impossible to land stuff on someone 20 lvls above you, then you can take a whack at them while they proceed to oneshot your group one by one. Im perfectly fine with that option. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Another option would be to change how pvp works altogether, making levels mean close to nothing apart from the skills you get. Damage is scaled to a specific set (ie mentored to a certain level of effectiveness) so a lvl 70s advantage is just that they ahve more skills, not that their skills do a [I cannot control my vocabulary] more damage. A lvl 10 will still be severely gimped compared to a lvl 70. And due to everyone having a fair chance (well, not really, if its a lvl 10 vs a lvl 70) just remove level ranges and let the mayhem begin. Perhaps make it so that you wont lose/gain anything of the level spread is greater than 10-15% (decided from the lower level guy). Still, everyone is attackable. More pvp, more fun. </blockquote> No, I couldn't outrun raids... but I ran from quite a few groups and solo hunters. One will always feel utter futility against raids - at level 70 I still get rolled big time with minimal chances of escape if I come across one of those... Anyway, your idea sounds very interesting.... allthough I'm sure there are issues with it though, as there are issues with everything. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Ok, so everyone would be white con to eachother all the way from 10-70 right? But you can see the number behind their name, as today. The first thought I had was that while a level 10 will be able to land spells on me as if we were the same level, I'll be wearing pieces of the level 70 PvP and EoF fabled gear, and have all those skills in adept 3/master 1 version + 100 AA points ... while he has no choice but to wear noob gear and have 2 nukes.... gimped doesn't even begin to describe that, lol. I would probably destroy him without even trying. As for gear and spells scaling... what would they scale to? Not your opponent, that wouldn't work as this game is very faction and group based. But maybe scale with the zone you are in, perhaps? I'm sure none of us sees all the possible issues with this, but before I can think of more problems, or someone else points them out - I think it sounds like a possibly good idea. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> </blockquote>Just use the %. You get the straight % of what the gear gives you. Not the hard stats, or the hard resists, or the hard damage or the hard health. And no, its not impossible to setup a decent scaling system. And how would it be more gimped than a 45 vs a 70, pray tell? And, guess what, I've tried MMOs that utilized such systems. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> I liked them better than the silly lvl range system of eq2. </blockquote>Why not just let it scale to the zone? So that if you're level 70 and zone into Antonica, then you're still 70 PvE wise, but to your opponents you are only level 20. In TS, you're 30, in EL you're 40 and so on.... Or did you want it to scale right down to 10 regardless of what zone you're in? </blockquote><span style="color: #ff0033">No, I want the PvP and PvE systems (almost) completely separated. Normalize the damage for spells to a fixed level of pve, or whatever. Just normalize it to a fixed point. All the spells of the same line will always do the same damage in pvp. The only advantage gained from more pve levels would be more skills to toy with. Not greater damage, or ten times the health and so on. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> That way, no level ranges would ever be needed (removing some silly stunts people pull to circumvent them), level locking would be a thing of the past and mentoring wouldnt be a problem in pvp. Quite a few odd things would go away. (And we would prolly gain a few new ones)</span> Some problems would be heals. How would you decide if the pvp or pve version would be applied? Because having pvp heals in pve would either be vastly overpowered, or completely gimpified. And using pve heals would be the same deal. Largest problem with the whole concept really. And Im still thinking about that one. Automatic mentoring to the level at hand would probably be neat as well, if they ever fix mentoring. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Only thing I see as a potential problem with that is people exploiting holes in it. that and always bringing raids of people 4 or 8 levels above you. But meh. That would serve to make levellocking more dangerous and the lower tiers more full of action so I dont mind that too much. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> </blockquote> That doesn't sound so bad at all, actually. As for heals, they are already toned down some for PvP, and yeah... sometimes that can probably be an issue if you're doing a mob and get jumped etc...

[Norrsken]

<cite>Amphibia wrote:</cite><blockquote>Ulvhamne@Nagafen wrote: <blockquote><cite>Amphibia wrote:</cite><blockquote>Ulvhamne@Nagafen wrote: <blockquote><cite>Amphibia wrote:</cite><blockquote>Ulvhamne@Nagafen wrote: <blockquote><cite>Amphibia wrote:</cite><blockquote>Ulvhamne@Nagafen wrote: <blockquote><cite>Amphibia wrote:</cite><blockquote>Ulvhamne@Nagafen wrote: <blockquote><cite>Amphibia wrote:</cite><blockquote>I agree completely with the OP. </blockquote>I sure dont. I wasnt very fond of the roaming raids farming grays there before they slapped a lvl cap on the zone. </blockquote>Well, then we disagree. I was one of the greys that were farmed there constantly. It was hard, but also a lot of fun because it really felt like a dangerous PvP environment. That's something I miss in this game, it was so much better before they ruined it with perma immunity, safe docks and waaaay too strict level range limits..... And now? Raids of greys who are hanging out to leech... safe in immunity and can attack whenever they feel that it's safe to do so. Whole guilds lock at 58-59 now, so that they can do this constantly. Why even level up and give up those huge advantages? Bleh. In my opinion, they should go ahead and remove that limit again. There is no excuse to keep it there anylonger, espesially with the way it is being abused. And greys getting ganked, what does it matter? They lose nothing. No fame and no items. They don't even get XP debt anymore. No penalites at all... so why do they need all this protection? </blockquote>Or, people at lvl cap could go to lvl cap zones? <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> And yah, I know there arent any good zones since in KoS everyone skydives, and in LP, there is aggro everywhere. But seriously, SS is a t6 zone. Complaining about t5-6 toons being unattackable there seems a bit off. And why arent you getting the same sense of danger with the gray raids? you sure as hell couldnt do anything to the red raids, as you cant to the gray ones. Shoudnt matter much, should it? </blockquote> Actually, I'm not a big fan of level range limits in general. And yes, you are right that Loping Plain and KoS sucks for PvP. For the exact reasons you just mentioned. With all the leeching going on, I don't think it is unreasonable at all to ask for something to change. Alternatively, they could make level range limits swing both ways - reds can't attack greys, and greys can't attack reds. Or make red cons as impossible to beat for greys as a red con mob would be. Maybe then they would think twice about attacking... As for the sense of danger, hehe... were you even there? It just doesn't sound as if you were. Of course I couldn't kill the red cons that were hunting me, but I could run... I could outsmart them sometimes, and I actually had to look over my shoulder, which is just fine on a PvP server. </blockquote>Oh yes, I were there. I couldnt get a decent pvp fight woithout a [I cannot control my vocabulary] raid popping in. Actually, the very toon in my sig were the first one to get into that hassle. And if you could outrun the roaming raids, well, you were in luch. What I usually had was a raid dropping from a carpet, snaring or rooting me and then everyone hit their fastest attack to land an attack to get faction before I died. I was usually a 2-3 second ordeal. And oh yeah, the revive ponts and carpets were most of the time camped. It wasnt a sense of danger, it was a sense of utter futility. And hell yeah, make reds more dangerous to grays. Make it near impossible to land stuff on someone 20 lvls above you, then you can take a whack at them while they proceed to oneshot your group one by one. Im perfectly fine with that option. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Another option would be to change how pvp works altogether, making levels mean close to nothing apart from the skills you get. Damage is scaled to a specific set (ie mentored to a certain level of effectiveness) so a lvl 70s advantage is just that they ahve more skills, not that their skills do a [I cannot control my vocabulary] more damage. A lvl 10 will still be severely gimped compared to a lvl 70. And due to everyone having a fair chance (well, not really, if its a lvl 10 vs a lvl 70) just remove level ranges and let the mayhem begin. Perhaps make it so that you wont lose/gain anything of the level spread is greater than 10-15% (decided from the lower level guy). Still, everyone is attackable. More pvp, more fun. </blockquote> No, I couldn't outrun raids... but I ran from quite a few groups and solo hunters. One will always feel utter futility against raids - at level 70 I still get rolled big time with minimal chances of escape if I come across one of those... Anyway, your idea sounds very interesting.... allthough I'm sure there are issues with it though, as there are issues with everything. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Ok, so everyone would be white con to eachother all the way from 10-70 right? But you can see the number behind their name, as today. The first thought I had was that while a level 10 will be able to land spells on me as if we were the same level, I'll be wearing pieces of the level 70 PvP and EoF fabled gear, and have all those skills in adept 3/master 1 version + 100 AA points ... while he has no choice but to wear noob gear and have 2 nukes.... gimped doesn't even begin to describe that, lol. I would probably destroy him without even trying. As for gear and spells scaling... what would they scale to? Not your opponent, that wouldn't work as this game is very faction and group based. But maybe scale with the zone you are in, perhaps? I'm sure none of us sees all the possible issues with this, but before I can think of more problems, or someone else points them out - I think it sounds like a possibly good idea. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> </blockquote>Just use the %. You get the straight % of what the gear gives you. Not the hard stats, or the hard resists, or the hard damage or the hard health. And no, its not impossible to setup a decent scaling system. And how would it be more gimped than a 45 vs a 70, pray tell? And, guess what, I've tried MMOs that utilized such systems. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> I liked them better than the silly lvl range system of eq2. </blockquote>Why not just let it scale to the zone? So that if you're level 70 and zone into Antonica, then you're still 70 PvE wise, but to your opponents you are only level 20. In TS, you're 30, in EL you're 40 and so on.... Or did you want it to scale right down to 10 regardless of what zone you're in? </blockquote><span style="color: #ff0033">No, I want the PvP and PvE systems (almost) completely separated. Normalize the damage for spells to a fixed level of pve, or whatever. Just normalize it to a fixed point. All the spells of the same line will always do the same damage in pvp. The only advantage gained from more pve levels would be more skills to toy with. Not greater damage, or ten times the health and so on. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> That way, no level ranges would ever be needed (removing some silly stunts people pull to circumvent them), level locking would be a thing of the past and mentoring wouldnt be a problem in pvp. Quite a few odd things would go away. (And we would prolly gain a few new ones)</span> Some problems would be heals. How would you decide if the pvp or pve version would be applied? Because having pvp heals in pve would either be vastly overpowered, or completely gimpified. And using pve heals would be the same deal. Largest problem with the whole concept really. And Im still thinking about that one. Automatic mentoring to the level at hand would probably be neat as well, if they ever fix mentoring. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Only thing I see as a potential problem with that is people exploiting holes in it. that and always bringing raids of people 4 or 8 levels above you. But meh. That would serve to make levellocking more dangerous and the lower tiers more full of action so I dont mind that too much. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> </blockquote> That doesn't sound so bad at all, actually. As for heals, they are already toned down some for PvP, and yeah... sometimes that can probably be an issue if you're doing a mob and get jumped etc... </blockquote>Yah, and if you decide to normalize heals for say, 10k of health, using those heals in t2 pve, ugh. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> The other way around would be normalizing heals for a 500 health pool. Imagine trying to use those heals in t7 pve. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> holds tru if you turn it around the other way as well. Which is kindof bothering me. (Even the current pvp implementation suffers from this to a lesser extent.)

[rvbarton]

<cite>Amphibia wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>rvbarton wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Amphibia wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>rvbarton wrote:</cite><blockquote> go to Loping Plains then...  </blockquote> Loping Plains is kinda remote and usually empty. There are other reasons for it also. Maybe if you get into the habbit of actually reading a thread before throwing in your 2cp, they might actually be worth concidering. But until then.... not really. </blockquote>aww.  did I strike a nerve?  Poor baby.  Can't leech fame anymore and can't kill those that leech off of you?  <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  Poor baby. </blockquote> Yeah, poor poor me... can't leech anymore.... <img src="/smilies/c30b4198e0907b23b8246bdd52aa1c3c.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Anyway, I appreaciate your contribution to this discussion, and I'm sure everyone who reads it will take your thoughts into concideration. Thank you for sharing! <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> </blockquote><p> No, thank YOU for sharing!  I feel so much more enlightened after reading your pearls of wisdom!  Thank MARR you are there to direct us with your logic & perserverance!  We are all sincerely in your debt.</p><p> /sarcasm off</p>

[jam3]

lol this is funny all the t6 people saying no dont change it back or no i will never get to 70. Long ago before level locking was a huge craze tons of people dealt with a unlimited level range sure your gonna die from 70s farming faction DEAL with it. 10 level range is stupid everyday i see more and more level 58-59 generals that sit on the ss docks, they dont pvp they wait til a 70 vs 70 fight happens and they use one CA and get some fame and status, they leech its stupid fix this [I cannot control my vocabulary] hell sometimes there level 15 dreadnaughts or something ..

[1800Gambler]

Bring back the carnage flag.... just make it so that if u r gray and attack someone out of the level range of the zone you become carnaged flagged. And with the new carnage flag make it the same as entering combat :no zoning, flying, etc. and stays 10 mins or so until the flag is gone. Flag goes away with death. This way if they want to leech fame they will be flagged and will be taken care of. If a person is leveling in the zone and they dont attack a red they wont be in danger of anyone out of there level range. Bring Back The Carnage to the PVP server.

[Bloodfa]

<p>Big fan of Carnage.  Works wonders.  <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>SS when I was in the high 40's was an adrenaline high from zone-in to zone-out.  If the NPC's didn't get you, the red SK on his nightmare would.  Fun times...</p>

[jam3]

<cite>1800Gambler wrote:</cite><blockquote>Bring back the carnage flag.... just make it so that if u r gray and attack someone out of the level range of the zone you become carnaged flagged. And with the new carnage flag make it the same as entering combat :no zoning, flying, etc. and stays 10 mins or so until the flag is gone. Flag goes away with death. This way if they want to leech fame they will be flagged and will be taken care of. If a person is leveling in the zone and they dont attack a red they wont be in danger of anyone out of there level range. Bring Back The Carnage to the PVP server. </blockquote>this works.

[Somatic]

Greys don't hang out in SS, and they would never leech fame.  What are u talking about. <img src="http://img264.imageshack.us/img264/7924/tokenfarmersgk8.jpg" border="0">

[Armironhead]

Bloodfang@Nagafen wrote: <blockquote><p>Big fan of Carnage.  Works wonders.  <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>SS when I was in the high 40's was an adrenaline high from zone-in to zone-out.  If the NPC's didn't get you, the red SK on his nightmare would.  Fun times...</p></blockquote> I so agree with this.  SS was the only true ffa area in the game since lower lvls can't really compete in kos (or lop now) because of the pve.  It was much more exciting trying to complete ur quests not knowing when some red q was going to try and stomp on u. And then, after you were killed, you would grab an ad hoc grp of fpers to pull down the guy who just did u in.  Much more fun then it is now.

[Bloodfa]

Armironhead@Vox wrote: <blockquote>Bloodfang@Nagafen wrote: <blockquote><p>Big fan of Carnage.  Works wonders.  <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>SS when I was in the high 40's was an adrenaline high from zone-in to zone-out.  If the NPC's didn't get you, the red SK on his nightmare would.  Fun times...</p></blockquote> I so agree with this.  SS was the only true ffa area in the game since lower lvls can't really compete in kos (or lop now) because of the pve.  It was much more exciting trying to complete ur quests not knowing when some red q was going to try and stomp on u. And then, after you were killed, you would grab an ad hoc grp of fpers to pull down the guy who just did u in.  Much more fun then it is now.</blockquote>The best pick-up groups were the ones looking for payback.  And that feeling of "Holy crap, we got him!" more than made up for all the "Aw, nuts, here he comes again ... <select respawn>"

[shagr1414]

Ulvhamne@Nagafen wrote: <blockquote><cite>Amphibia wrote:</cite><blockquote>I agree completely with the OP. </blockquote>I sure dont. I wasnt very fond of the roaming raids farming grays there before they slapped a lvl cap on the zone. </blockquote>Well a lvl 60 is grey in that zone to z 70, but i think what the OP means is more or less, the people who drag a lvl 20ish char there to hit you one time and gain fame for it if another worthy opponent kills you.  Actually there is a simple fix for this whole thing. Just make it so if the player you are attacking is red to you and cannot openly attack you first since you are grey to them, simply make it so they receive no fame or status or anyhting. Just make it not worth their time to interfere with a fight they would normally lose.  There is no justified reason for a lvl 20 character to be in a t6 zone. I've found a pretty simple way to remove these people from the area of the docks though. as a necro i can charm one of the ^^^ spectre's at the tower near the dock.  Bring it to he docks and release/FD, cleans them out nicely.

[Borias]

<p>I agree SS should be unilimited range zone.  Leave the rest of the t6 zones with ranges, but keep SS open.  There are very very few legitimate questers in that zone now anyways.  Everyone goes and does LFay because of the rewards.  Easy access zone with open PvP?  I'm not seeing the drawbacks at this state of the game.  And yes, I leveled up through T6 during the open days.</p><p>And I'm sorry Ulvhamne, but you've been 59 since May 14th.  I think you've had enough time to level up to T7.  It's pretty clear why you don't want SS opened up.</p>

[Scatimus]

Ulvhamne@Nagafen wrote: <blockquote><cite>Amphibia wrote:</cite><blockquote>Ulvhamne@Nagafen wrote: <blockquote><cite>Amphibia wrote:</cite><blockquote>Ulvhamne@Nagafen wrote: <blockquote><cite>Amphibia wrote:</cite><blockquote>Ulvhamne@Nagafen wrote: <blockquote><cite>Amphibia wrote:</cite><blockquote>Ulvhamne@Nagafen wrote: <blockquote><cite>Amphibia wrote:</cite><blockquote>Ulvhamne@Nagafen wrote: <blockquote><cite>Amphibia wrote:</cite><blockquote>I agree completely with the OP. </blockquote>I sure dont. I wasnt very fond of the roaming raids farming grays there before they slapped a lvl cap on the zone. </blockquote>Well, then we disagree. I was one of the greys that were farmed there constantly. It was hard, but also a lot of fun because it really felt like a dangerous PvP environment. That's something I miss in this game, it was so much better before they ruined it with perma immunity, safe docks and waaaay too strict level range limits..... And now? Raids of greys who are hanging out to leech... safe in immunity and can attack whenever they feel that it's safe to do so. Whole guilds lock at 58-59 now, so that they can do this constantly. Why even level up and give up those huge advantages? Bleh. In my opinion, they should go ahead and remove that limit again. There is no excuse to keep it there anylonger, espesially with the way it is being abused. And greys getting ganked, what does it matter? They lose nothing. No fame and no items. They don't even get XP debt anymore. No penalites at all... so why do they need all this protection? </blockquote>Or, people at lvl cap could go to lvl cap zones? <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> And yah, I know there arent any good zones since in KoS everyone skydives, and in LP, there is aggro everywhere. But seriously, SS is a t6 zone. Complaining about t5-6 toons being unattackable there seems a bit off. And why arent you getting the same sense of danger with the gray raids? you sure as hell couldnt do anything to the red raids, as you cant to the gray ones. Shoudnt matter much, should it? </blockquote> Actually, I'm not a big fan of level range limits in general. And yes, you are right that Loping Plain and KoS sucks for PvP. For the exact reasons you just mentioned. With all the leeching going on, I don't think it is unreasonable at all to ask for something to change. Alternatively, they could make level range limits swing both ways - reds can't attack greys, and greys can't attack reds. Or make red cons as impossible to beat for greys as a red con mob would be. Maybe then they would think twice about attacking... As for the sense of danger, hehe... were you even there? It just doesn't sound as if you were. Of course I couldn't kill the red cons that were hunting me, but I could run... I could outsmart them sometimes, and I actually had to look over my shoulder, which is just fine on a PvP server. </blockquote>Oh yes, I were there. I couldnt get a decent pvp fight woithout a [I cannot control my vocabulary] raid popping in. Actually, the very toon in my sig were the first one to get into that hassle. And if you could outrun the roaming raids, well, you were in luch. What I usually had was a raid dropping from a carpet, snaring or rooting me and then everyone hit their fastest attack to land an attack to get faction before I died. I was usually a 2-3 second ordeal. And oh yeah, the revive ponts and carpets were most of the time camped. It wasnt a sense of danger, it was a sense of utter futility. And hell yeah, make reds more dangerous to grays. Make it near impossible to land stuff on someone 20 lvls above you, then you can take a whack at them while they proceed to oneshot your group one by one. Im perfectly fine with that option. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Another option would be to change how pvp works altogether, making levels mean close to nothing apart from the skills you get. Damage is scaled to a specific set (ie mentored to a certain level of effectiveness) so a lvl 70s advantage is just that they ahve more skills, not that their skills do a [I cannot control my vocabulary] more damage. A lvl 10 will still be severely gimped compared to a lvl 70. And due to everyone having a fair chance (well, not really, if its a lvl 10 vs a lvl 70) just remove level ranges and let the mayhem begin. Perhaps make it so that you wont lose/gain anything of the level spread is greater than 10-15% (decided from the lower level guy). Still, everyone is attackable. More pvp, more fun. </blockquote> No, I couldn't outrun raids... but I ran from quite a few groups and solo hunters. One will always feel utter futility against raids - at level 70 I still get rolled big time with minimal chances of escape if I come across one of those... Anyway, your idea sounds very interesting.... allthough I'm sure there are issues with it though, as there are issues with everything. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Ok, so everyone would be white con to eachother all the way from 10-70 right? But you can see the number behind their name, as today. The first thought I had was that while a level 10 will be able to land spells on me as if we were the same level, I'll be wearing pieces of the level 70 PvP and EoF fabled gear, and have all those skills in adept 3/master 1 version + 100 AA points ... while he has no choice but to wear noob gear and have 2 nukes.... gimped doesn't even begin to describe that, lol. I would probably destroy him without even trying. As for gear and spells scaling... what would they scale to? Not your opponent, that wouldn't work as this game is very faction and group based. But maybe scale with the zone you are in, perhaps? I'm sure none of us sees all the possible issues with this, but before I can think of more problems, or someone else points them out - I think it sounds like a possibly good idea. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> </blockquote>Just use the %. You get the straight % of what the gear gives you. Not the hard stats, or the hard resists, or the hard damage or the hard health. And no, its not impossible to setup a decent scaling system. And how would it be more gimped than a 45 vs a 70, pray tell? And, guess what, I've tried MMOs that utilized such systems. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> I liked them better than the silly lvl range system of eq2. </blockquote>Why not just let it scale to the zone? So that if you're level 70 and zone into Antonica, then you're still 70 PvE wise, but to your opponents you are only level 20. In TS, you're 30, in EL you're 40 and so on.... Or did you want it to scale right down to 10 regardless of what zone you're in? </blockquote><span style="color: #ff0033">No, I want the PvP and PvE systems (almost) completely separated. Normalize the damage for spells to a fixed level of pve, or whatever. Just normalize it to a fixed point. All the spells of the same line will always do the same damage in pvp. The only advantage gained from more pve levels would be more skills to toy with. Not greater damage, or ten times the health and so on. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> That way, no level ranges would ever be needed (removing some silly stunts people pull to circumvent them), level locking would be a thing of the past and mentoring wouldnt be a problem in pvp. Quite a few odd things would go away. (And we would prolly gain a few new ones)</span> Some problems would be heals. How would you decide if the pvp or pve version would be applied? Because having pvp heals in pve would either be vastly overpowered, or completely gimpified. And using pve heals would be the same deal. Largest problem with the whole concept really. And Im still thinking about that one. Automatic mentoring to the level at hand would probably be neat as well, if they ever fix mentoring. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Only thing I see as a potential problem with that is people exploiting holes in it. that and always bringing raids of people 4 or 8 levels above you. But meh. That would serve to make levellocking more dangerous and the lower tiers more full of action so I dont mind that too much. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> </blockquote> That doesn't sound so bad at all, actually. As for heals, they are already toned down some for PvP, and yeah... sometimes that can probably be an issue if you're doing a mob and get jumped etc... </blockquote>Yah, and if you decide to normalize heals for say, 10k of health, using those heals in t2 pve, ugh. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> The other way around would be normalizing heals for a 500 health pool. Imagine trying to use those heals in t7 pve. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> holds tru if you turn it around the other way as well. Which is kindof bothering me. (Even the current pvp implementation suffers from this to a lesser extent.) </blockquote> look how many quotes i made.

[Vilesummon]

Borias@Venekor wrote: <blockquote><p>I agree SS should be unilimited range zone.  Leave the rest of the t6 zones with ranges, but keep SS open.  There are very very few legitimate questers in that zone now anyways.  Everyone goes and does LFay because of the rewards.  Easy access zone with open PvP?  I'm not seeing the drawbacks at this state of the game.  And yes, I leveled up through T6 during the open days.</p><p>And I'm sorry Ulvhamne, but you've been 59 since May 14th.  I think you've had enough time to level up to T7.  It's pretty clear why you don't want SS opened up.</p></blockquote> I don't know what you are possibly implying with your comments. Clearly, he is exploring the content of the game and that would be the ONLY reason he isn't t7 yet. As you said, the reason is pretty clear...and it is shame because SS is one of the few places that is open enough for people to PVP without the cloud hopping and crap of KOS. The problem is the lil gank [Removed for Content] that are leeching in the zone. You and I are both of the timeline that we grew up in the unlimited SS days...hell, I probably have 100 deaths from trying to find vanadium for my skills, but we managed. Time for the lil grays to actually have to face some of the trials and pains that we all went through. Of course, as we have both stated in other threads too, it would be even less of a problem if the resist/mitigations actually worked properly for the high end players. 2 things that don't require ANY nerfing that would make it better all around are: 1. Open range in SS again 2. Proper mechanics for resists and mitigations of the high end players. No nerf needed so I think those are 2 EASY win/win proposals.

[Cyst]

<p>I have found a lot of 70s hide part of their group, or most of their raid inside Butcherblock, Qeynos Harbor, or Freeport waiting to bait others and gank them. Cheesy tactic.</p><p>Soon there will be level 80s with plenty of unlimited zones to fight in, but if 70s really wanted a good tactical zone to fight in, they'd go to Shimmering Citadel (an unlimited zone), not hug carpets in Sinking Sands for easy escape, or hide half thier group/raid in Butcherblock. No, you're only in Sinking Sands because of the carpets and easy to hide group exploits.</p><p>Problem is most 70s I've encountered don't want a fair, or challenging fight, they just want to gank.</p><p>Sinking Sands is one of the worst zones to PvP in because everyone jumps on a carpet and you spend most your time on carpets chasing them. Or one person lets your group engage him, jumps on carpet as his RAID comes and ganks your vulnerable group. Sinking Sands is a very frustrating place to fight in.</p>

[Cyst]

<p>Another lame tactic in Sinking Sands making it the worst PvP area revolves around the docks being the evac/revive point for exiles.</p><p>Your tanks go off out of evac range and a scout evacs all the casters and healers making them immune, and they stand permanently immune at the docks leaving the tanks as your only targets.</p>

[Izzypop]

<img src="http://tti.tamu.edu/publications/researcher/v40n1/images/stop_signC.jpg" border="0"> Stop for 1 minute and ask Why did SOE remove unlimited pvp ranges from T6 zones in the 1st place. Answer:  Because a few 70's were abusing it and making life hell for the level 40's and 50's that were just trying to get up there in levels.  Once CT, Sol Ro, and Permafrost slowed down as xp zones this forced everybody in T5/T6 to grind straight to T7 in instanced zones.  It completely killed T5/T6 pvp as everybody in t5/6 cowered inside instances occasionally popping their heads out of their holes into the sunlight to run in a mad dash from 1 instances into another before the groups of 70's hunted them down like dogs.  Those in T6 who dared climb out of their instanced holes to PvE or PvP were greeted by equal sized groups of 70's there to grief them. Ask Yourself: Are there more gray players leeching infamy off the ss docks than there are innocent t5/t6 players who want to play outside instances and pvp with people in their level range?  If the entire t5/t6 population in the game is greater than the number of leeches wouldn't going back to the days of unlimited pvp in t6 zones do more harm than good? Ask Yourself: What will the real cowardly T7 players that you know and hate do?  Will they stay in T7 and fight people their level, or will they take their groups and go into SS/PoF and grab easy kills? Ask Yourself:  Is good T7 pvp hard to find?  Will sending more of the T7 pvp population into T6 zones to grab easy kills make good PvP more or less likely to happen? Yes: Infamy Leeches can suck a big fat one,choke, and die.  I hate them also, but is the root cause of the problem the level range in SS or the infamy system that is more borked than Bork's beard? Math:  Math is my answer to the problem.  The entire infamy sytem needs a big overhaul IMO and part of that is the math behind how it works. 50% of the Infamy from a kill should be from the DPS inflicted upon the person killed split by how much dammage a player did 50% of the Infamy should be from damage taken from the person who just died. Example #1 a 70 Bruiser Kills a 70 monk with a level 20 Necro leeching infamy. The Bruiser inflicted 96% of the damage on the Monk receiving 48% of the Infamy, the necro gets 2% The Bruiser Received 98% of the damage the monk put out, the Necro's pet received 2% (thorns) Bruiser gets 49% Necro 1% Total Breakdown Bruiser gets 48%+49%=97% of the Infamy, necro gets 1+2=3% Example #2 a 65 Wiz and 65 Guard kill a 70 Bruiser the wiz would get tons from the dps he does the guard from receiving it.  Infamy would be split even between group members so if a full group was fighting someone and a solo jumps in the solo would be really left out.  Healers would not be left out because if they heal someone for 50k in a fight then that's 50k more damage their group received.  The system isn't perfect but it would scale the infamy gained to everybody's actual damage inflicted and received in a fight There are many answers to making PvP and the infamy system better.  Randomly borking all T6 players  is not one of them.

[Amphibia]

<cite>Izzypop wrote:</cite><blockquote>Stop for 1 minute and ask Why did SOE remove unlimited pvp ranges from T6 zones in the 1st place. Answer:  Because a few 70's were abusing it and making life hell for the level 40's and 50's that were just trying to get up there in levels.  Once CT, Sol Ro, and Permafrost slowed down as xp zones this forced everybody in T5/T6 to grind straight to T7 in instanced zones.  It completely killed T5/T6 pvp as everybody in t5/6 cowered inside instances occasionally popping their heads out of their holes into the sunlight to run in a mad dash from 1 instances into another before the groups of 70's hunted them down like dogs.  Those in T6 who dared climb out of their instanced holes to PvE or PvP were greeted by equal sized groups of 70's there to grief them. <span style="color: #ff0099">I'm sure there was a reason they changed the limits yes, but changing something for a reason doesn't always make the end result better, does it? I'm sure the devs have a much better clue than most of us of what's going on in the game they're making, but even they can't possibly imagine all the ways a ruleset can be abused by the players. The leeching has become a problem now, to be honest. And as said before, many of us were in our 40s and 50s when the "Trial of Fire" for PvP'ers was still there. It was a different game back then too.... no Lesser Faydark to go quest in, and we got TONS of xp debt. But it was challenging in an interesting way, and as someone else would say - we didn't come to a PvP server to be safe, did we? </span><img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Ask Yourself: Are there more gray players leeching infamy off the ss docks than there are innocent t5/t6 players who want to play outside instances and pvp with people in their level range?  If the entire t5/t6 population in the game is greater than the number of leeches wouldn't going back to the days of unlimited pvp in t6 zones do more harm than good? <span style="color: #ff0099">Hard to tell, I run around in SS from time to time and I rarely spot greys out in the sands. No, most seem to be hanging at the docks. Does that mean they are all leeches? No, of course not. But many are. Neither of us have any hard numbers here, so discussing math without numbers is a bit meaningless, isn't it? Another thing to concider is weither ALL grey players want to be safe like that, and also take the label as "leech" if they jump into a fight now and then? </span> Ask Yourself: What will the real cowardly T7 players that you know and hate do?  Will they stay in T7 and fight people their level, or will they take their groups and go into SS/PoF and grab easy kills? <span style="color: #ff0099">If they go to SS to farm our greys, we will go to SS to kick their butts all the way back to Freeport. And tbh, greys are not as attractive to kill as before. Yes, you can farm faction off them but I think most have this maxed anyway. And only color con'ed can give those shiny tokens... </span> Ask Yourself:  Is good T7 pvp hard to find?  Will sending more of the T7 pvp population into T6 zones to grab easy kills make good PvP more or less likely to happen? <span style="color: #ff0099">Yes, good T7 PvP is hard to find. But you see, SS is a place that is easily accessable for everybody. Such things matters on a PvP server. Why do you think there were so many people hanging out in Frostfell? Everyone could get there from their home cities. It's the same thing with SS. And why do you think nobody cares to go PvP in LP? Because you need to either go SS-BB-LF-LP or have a druid port you SF-LP. Plus, all the aggro stunning crap in there makes it kinda suck.... </span> Yes: Infamy Leeches can suck a big fat one,choke, and die.  I hate them also, but is the root cause of the problem the level range in SS or the infamy system that is more borked than Bork's beard? <span style="color: #ff0099">I agree that the infamy system is borked, but the leeches also look for tokens. As said before, there are entire guilds based on that now... lock at 58, twink out and go farm 70's for fame and tokens. Easier to hang out with immunity and wait for a good oppertunity than to level up and risk getting attacked, right? Oh, and SS isn't the only place they've got covered btw, they are also camping spires...  they're interested in all places where 70s may go, except KoS, SC and LP.... those are the only places you will never see them.</span> <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> </blockquote>

[Izzypop]

<cite>Amphibia wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Izzypop wrote:</cite><blockquote> Yes: Infamy Leeches can suck a big fat one,choke, and die.  I hate them also, but is the root cause of the problem the level range in SS or the infamy system that is more borked than Bork's beard? <span style="color: #ff0099">I agree that the infamy system is borked, but the leeches also look for tokens. As said before, there are entire guilds based on that now... lock at 58, twink out and go farm 70's for fame and tokens. Easier to hang out with immunity and wait for a good oppertunity than to level up and risk getting attacked, right? Oh, and SS isn't the only place they've got covered btw, they are also camping spires...  they're interested in all places where 70s may go, except KoS, SC and LP.... those are the only places you will never see them.</span> <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> </blockquote> </blockquote>   Once again a symptom of a deeper problem.  Entire guilds who lock at 58 to stay gray in t2/t3/t4/t6 zones.   The only "absolute" cure is unlimited pvp ranges in all zones.  The middle ground easy fix would be to remove pvp ranges from zones and go with level ranges for playerrs so your level range goes up with your level.   Grouping or raiding should expand your level range.  There is so much SOE needs to to fix the game I'm afraid reverting SS back to unlimited pvp would just be putting a band-aid on a bullet wound.

[Norrsken]

<cite>Izzypop wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Amphibia wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Izzypop wrote:</cite><blockquote> Yes: Infamy Leeches can suck a big fat one,choke, and die.  I hate them also, but is the root cause of the problem the level range in SS or the infamy system that is more borked than Bork's beard? <span style="color: #ff0099">I agree that the infamy system is borked, but the leeches also look for tokens. As said before, there are entire guilds based on that now... lock at 58, twink out and go farm 70's for fame and tokens. Easier to hang out with immunity and wait for a good oppertunity than to level up and risk getting attacked, right? Oh, and SS isn't the only place they've got covered btw, they are also camping spires...  they're interested in all places where 70s may go, except KoS, SC and LP.... those are the only places you will never see them.</span> <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> </blockquote> </blockquote>   Once again a symptom of a deeper problem.  Entire guilds who lock at 58 to stay gray in t2/t3/t4/t6 zones.   The only "absolute" cure is unlimited pvp ranges in all zones.  The middle ground easy fix would be to remove pvp ranges from zones and go with level ranges for playerrs so your level range goes up with your level.   Grouping or raiding should expand your level range.  There is so much SOE needs to to fix the game I'm afraid reverting SS back to unlimited pvp would just be putting a band-aid on a bullet wound. </blockquote>And I think my sugestion is a far better and less bandaidy solution, only problem is them damned heals. Nut I might have a solution to that too. Gotta think a bit more tho. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[jam3]

my problem is level 15 dreadnaughts have no reason to be there and shoudn't, regardless of if t7 players abused t6 levelers. I dealt with being killed by reds as a grey clothie..alot of us did and now alot of people dont have to deal with it at all. LAME IMO.

[Norrsken]

Aeeron@Nagafen wrote: <blockquote>my problem is level 15 dreadnaughts have no reason to be there and shoudn't, regardless of if t7 players abused t6 levelers. I dealt with being killed by reds as a grey clothie..alot of us did and now alot of people dont have to deal with it at all. LAME IMO. </blockquote>So, the lame bit is that you cant harass players as you yourself were harassed? Hmm...

[jam3]

Ulvhamne@Nagafen wrote: <blockquote>Aeeron@Nagafen wrote: <blockquote>my problem is level 15 dreadnaughts have no reason to be there and shoudn't, regardless of if t7 players abused t6 levelers. I dealt with being killed by reds as a grey clothie..alot of us did and now alot of people dont have to deal with it at all. LAME IMO. </blockquote>So, the lame bit is that you cant harass players as you yourself were harassed? Hmm... </blockquote> the lame bit is people like you who sit on sinking sands docks and wait for a tier 7 fight to happen and you cast one spell and bull [Removed for Content] leech the fame/status/faction/token whatever. and yes its [Removed for Content] that people were griefed countlessly in tier 6 and then they suddenly change the pvp limit.

[Norrsken]

Aeeron@Nagafen wrote: <blockquote>Ulvhamne@Nagafen wrote: <blockquote>Aeeron@Nagafen wrote: <blockquote>my problem is level 15 dreadnaughts have no reason to be there and shoudn't, regardless of if t7 players abused t6 levelers. I dealt with being killed by reds as a grey clothie..alot of us did and now alot of people dont have to deal with it at all. LAME IMO. </blockquote>So, the lame bit is that you cant harass players as you yourself were harassed? Hmm... </blockquote> the lame bit is people like you who sit on sinking sands docks and wait for a tier 7 fight to happen and you cast one spell and bull [I cannot control my vocabulary] leech the fame/status/faction/token whatever. and yes its [I cannot control my vocabulary] that people were griefed countlessly in tier 6 and then they suddenly change the pvp limit. </blockquote>Lol. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> You obviously havent seen me around then. Np, wont hold that against you. Keep on whining about not being able to farm grays in a zone you really dont have any buisness being in. IT makes you look so good.

[jam3]

Ulvhamne@Nagafen wrote: <blockquote>Aeeron@Nagafen wrote: <blockquote>Ulvhamne@Nagafen wrote: <blockquote>Aeeron@Nagafen wrote: <blockquote>my problem is level 15 dreadnaughts have no reason to be there and shoudn't, regardless of if t7 players abused t6 levelers. I dealt with being killed by reds as a grey clothie..alot of us did and now alot of people dont have to deal with it at all. LAME IMO. </blockquote>So, the lame bit is that you cant harass players as you yourself were harassed? Hmm... </blockquote> the lame bit is people like you who sit on sinking sands docks and wait for a tier 7 fight to happen and you cast one spell and bull [I cannot control my vocabulary] leech the fame/status/faction/token whatever. and yes its [I cannot control my vocabulary] that people were griefed countlessly in tier 6 and then they suddenly change the pvp limit. </blockquote>Lol. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> You obviously havent seen me around then. Np, wont hold that against you. Keep on whining about not being able to farm grays in a zone you really dont have any buisness being in. IT makes you look so good. </blockquote>,go play qeynos please sit on sinking sands docks as a mage and watch how many level 59s stand next to you for 1 minute swarming and kililng you. It USED to be a nice place to find fights but its now used to get free faction fame and status at level 10-59. Freeport is generally the faction with the 10+ greys sitting on the docks doing absolutely nothing until a they can leech or gank someone because of level restrictions so i understand you won't see where i am coming from. People have said it before would 5 level 55s attack a level 70 ^^^ of course not why is this any different?

[Norrsken]

Aeeron@Nagafen wrote: <blockquote>Ulvhamne@Nagafen wrote: <blockquote>Aeeron@Nagafen wrote: <blockquote>Ulvhamne@Nagafen wrote: <blockquote>Aeeron@Nagafen wrote: <blockquote>my problem is level 15 dreadnaughts have no reason to be there and shoudn't, regardless of if t7 players abused t6 levelers. I dealt with being killed by reds as a grey clothie..alot of us did and now alot of people dont have to deal with it at all. LAME IMO. </blockquote>So, the lame bit is that you cant harass players as you yourself were harassed? Hmm... </blockquote> the lame bit is people like you who sit on sinking sands docks and wait for a tier 7 fight to happen and you cast one spell and bull [I cannot control my vocabulary] leech the fame/status/faction/token whatever. and yes its [I cannot control my vocabulary] that people were griefed countlessly in tier 6 and then they suddenly change the pvp limit. </blockquote>Lol. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> You obviously havent seen me around then. Np, wont hold that against you. Keep on whining about not being able to farm grays in a zone you really dont have any buisness being in. IT makes you look so good. </blockquote>,go play qeynos please sit on sinking sands docks as a mage and watch how many level 59s stand next to you for 1 minute swarming and kililng you. It USED to be a nice place to find fights but its now used to get free faction fame and status at level 10-59. </blockquote>Then why dont you lvl 70ies find a new spot to sit at? Since ss is a zone where 45-59 are supposed to actually be. And whoa! Guess what? Its the same for a solo FP mage. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[jam3]

Ulvhamne@Nagafen wrote: <blockquote>Aeeron@Nagafen wrote: <blockquote>Ulvhamne@Nagafen wrote: <blockquote>Aeeron@Nagafen wrote: <blockquote>Ulvhamne@Nagafen wrote: <blockquote>Aeeron@Nagafen wrote: <blockquote>my problem is level 15 dreadnaughts have no reason to be there and shoudn't, regardless of if t7 players abused t6 levelers. I dealt with being killed by reds as a grey clothie..alot of us did and now alot of people dont have to deal with it at all. LAME IMO. </blockquote>So, the lame bit is that you cant harass players as you yourself were harassed? Hmm... </blockquote> the lame bit is people like you who sit on sinking sands docks and wait for a tier 7 fight to happen and you cast one spell and bull [I cannot control my vocabulary] leech the fame/status/faction/token whatever. and yes its [I cannot control my vocabulary] that people were griefed countlessly in tier 6 and then they suddenly change the pvp limit. </blockquote>Lol. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> You obviously havent seen me around then. Np, wont hold that against you. Keep on whining about not being able to farm grays in a zone you really dont have any buisness being in. IT makes you look so good. </blockquote>,go play qeynos please sit on sinking sands docks as a mage and watch how many level 59s stand next to you for 1 minute swarming and kililng you. It USED to be a nice place to find fights but its now used to get free faction fame and status at level 10-59. </blockquote>Then why dont you lvl 70ies find a new spot to sit at? Since ss is a zone where 45-59 are supposed to actually be. And whoa! Guess what? Its the same for a solo FP mage. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> </blockquote>Okay so explain how its alright a level 15 can be on the docks if its a tier 6 zone. Im not gonna bother fighting because its obvious if sinking sands was opened up you'd have to lock at a different tier.

[Norrsken]

Aeeron@Nagafen wrote: <blockquote>Ulvhamne@Nagafen wrote: <blockquote>Aeeron@Nagafen wrote: <blockquote>Ulvhamne@Nagafen wrote: <blockquote>Aeeron@Nagafen wrote: <blockquote>Ulvhamne@Nagafen wrote: <blockquote>Aeeron@Nagafen wrote: <blockquote>my problem is level 15 dreadnaughts have no reason to be there and shoudn't, regardless of if t7 players abused t6 levelers. I dealt with being killed by reds as a grey clothie..alot of us did and now alot of people dont have to deal with it at all. LAME IMO. </blockquote>So, the lame bit is that you cant harass players as you yourself were harassed? Hmm... </blockquote> the lame bit is people like you who sit on sinking sands docks and wait for a tier 7 fight to happen and you cast one spell and bull [I cannot control my vocabulary] leech the fame/status/faction/token whatever. and yes its [I cannot control my vocabulary] that people were griefed countlessly in tier 6 and then they suddenly change the pvp limit. </blockquote>Lol. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> You obviously havent seen me around then. Np, wont hold that against you. Keep on whining about not being able to farm grays in a zone you really dont have any buisness being in. IT makes you look so good. </blockquote>,go play qeynos please sit on sinking sands docks as a mage and watch how many level 59s stand next to you for 1 minute swarming and kililng you. It USED to be a nice place to find fights but its now used to get free faction fame and status at level 10-59. </blockquote>Then why dont you lvl 70ies find a new spot to sit at? Since ss is a zone where 45-59 are supposed to actually be. And whoa! Guess what? Its the same for a solo FP mage. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> </blockquote>Okay so explain how its alright a level 15 can be on the docks if its a tier 6 zone. Im not gonna bother fighting because its obvious if sinking sands was opened up you'd have to lock at a different tier. </blockquote>If a lvl 15 can attack you and survive, that is your problem, you should oneshot him. And I dont see any reason why he shoudlnt be ther any less than he should be in nek. So your argument is, open up all zones to have no limits whatsoever because people are going to zones they are too low to go to? Guess what, that would make 70ies go farm grays in t2/3 zones to no end. Same reason SS have lvl restrictions nowadays. All the [I cannot control my vocabulary] couldnt keep their fingers off the grays, farming the [I cannot control my vocabulary] out of them. Had they not done that, SS would still be an unlimited zone, I guarantee it. AND, the reason I am staying 59 is Im waiting for slow leveling guildies. I wouldnt mind having a stab at the easymode lvl 70 pvp where you by design cant fight people higher level than you. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Amphibia]

Ulvhamne@Nagafen wrote: <blockquote>Aeeron@Nagafen wrote: <blockquote>Ulvhamne@Nagafen wrote: <blockquote>Aeeron@Nagafen wrote: <blockquote>Ulvhamne@Nagafen wrote: <blockquote>Aeeron@Nagafen wrote: <blockquote>Ulvhamne@Nagafen wrote: <blockquote>Aeeron@Nagafen wrote: <blockquote>my problem is level 15 dreadnaughts have no reason to be there and shoudn't, regardless of if t7 players abused t6 levelers. I dealt with being killed by reds as a grey clothie..alot of us did and now alot of people dont have to deal with it at all. LAME IMO. </blockquote>So, the lame bit is that you cant harass players as you yourself were harassed? Hmm... </blockquote> the lame bit is people like you who sit on sinking sands docks and wait for a tier 7 fight to happen and you cast one spell and bull [I cannot control my vocabulary] leech the fame/status/faction/token whatever. and yes its [I cannot control my vocabulary] that people were griefed countlessly in tier 6 and then they suddenly change the pvp limit. </blockquote>Lol. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> You obviously havent seen me around then. Np, wont hold that against you. Keep on whining about not being able to farm grays in a zone you really dont have any buisness being in. IT makes you look so good. </blockquote>,go play qeynos please sit on sinking sands docks as a mage and watch how many level 59s stand next to you for 1 minute swarming and kililng you. It USED to be a nice place to find fights but its now used to get free faction fame and status at level 10-59. </blockquote>Then why dont you lvl 70ies find a new spot to sit at? Since ss is a zone where 45-59 are supposed to actually be. And whoa! Guess what? Its the same for a solo FP mage. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> </blockquote>Okay so explain how its alright a level 15 can be on the docks if its a tier 6 zone. Im not gonna bother fighting because its obvious if sinking sands was opened up you'd have to lock at a different tier. </blockquote><span style="color: #ff0033">If a lvl 15 can attack you and survive, that is your problem, you should oneshot him.</span> And I dont see any reason why he shoudlnt be ther any less than he should be in nek. So your argument is, open up all zones to have no limits whatsoever because people are going to zones they are too low to go to? Guess what, that would make 70ies go farm grays in t2/3 zones to no end. Same reason SS have lvl restrictions nowadays. All the [I cannot control my vocabulary] couldnt keep their fingers off the grays, farming the [I cannot control my vocabulary] out of them. Had they not done that, SS would still be an unlimited zone, I guarantee it. AND, the reason I am staying 59 is Im waiting for slow leveling guildies. I wouldnt mind having a stab at the easymode lvl 70 pvp where you by design cant fight people higher level than you. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> </blockquote> Heh, who'd notice one level 15 when there are like 20 level 40-59 greys swarming you and hitting you at the same time.... As for 70 being easymode.... try it first, please. Nothing wrong with waiting for guildies etc, but as with most things, experience is the best teacher. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Ashen-Shugar]

<cite>Rabbitoh wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>As the title suggested, make SS a zone where any lvl can be attacked like it use to be.</p><p>On Naggy the swams of grey leeches around the docks are is becoming ridiculous. Anything from lvl 20s to 61's are camping the dock area to leech fame off lvl 70 players engaged in decent pvp fights.</p><p>If these little leeches want to abuse the lvl restrictiions then i suggest SS be opened upped. There is no reason why it shouldn't be as there are plenty of zones for the nooblets to quest in, now that EoF has been introduced.</p><p>Maybe this will stop the x2 of greys that just sit there waiting to leech.</p><p>Molok ranger of Vigilante.</p></blockquote>/agree totally

[Ashen-Shugar]

Ulvhamne@Nagafen wrote: <blockquote>Aeeron@Nagafen wrote: <blockquote>Ulvhamne@Nagafen wrote: <blockquote>Aeeron@Nagafen wrote: <blockquote>Ulvhamne@Nagafen wrote: <blockquote>Aeeron@Nagafen wrote: <blockquote>Ulvhamne@Nagafen wrote: <blockquote>Aeeron@Nagafen wrote: <blockquote>my problem is level 15 dreadnaughts have no reason to be there and shoudn't, regardless of if t7 players abused t6 levelers. I dealt with being killed by reds as a grey clothie..alot of us did and now alot of people dont have to deal with it at all. LAME IMO. </blockquote>So, the lame bit is that you cant harass players as you yourself were harassed? Hmm... </blockquote> the lame bit is people like you who sit on sinking sands docks and wait for a tier 7 fight to happen and you cast one spell and bull [I cannot control my vocabulary] leech the fame/status/faction/token whatever. and yes its [I cannot control my vocabulary] that people were griefed countlessly in tier 6 and then they suddenly change the pvp limit. </blockquote>Lol. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> You obviously havent seen me around then. Np, wont hold that against you. Keep on whining about not being able to farm grays in a zone you really dont have any buisness being in. IT makes you look so good. </blockquote>,go play qeynos please sit on sinking sands docks as a mage and watch how many level 59s stand next to you for 1 minute swarming and kililng you. It USED to be a nice place to find fights but its now used to get free faction fame and status at level 10-59. </blockquote>Then why dont you lvl 70ies find a new spot to sit at? Since ss is a zone where 45-59 are supposed to actually be. And whoa! Guess what? Its the same for a solo FP mage. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> </blockquote>Okay so explain how its alright a level 15 can be on the docks if its a tier 6 zone. Im not gonna bother fighting because its obvious if sinking sands was opened up you'd have to lock at a different tier. </blockquote>If a lvl 15 can attack you and survive, that is your problem, you should oneshot him. And I dont see any reason why he shoudlnt be ther any less than he should be in nek. So your argument is, open up all zones to have no limits whatsoever because people are going to zones they are too low to go to? Guess what, that would make 70ies go farm grays in t2/3 zones to no end. Same reason SS have lvl restrictions nowadays. All the [I cannot control my vocabulary] couldnt keep their fingers off the grays, farming the [I cannot control my vocabulary] out of them. Had they not done that, SS would still be an unlimited zone, I guarantee it. AND, the reason I am staying 59 is Im waiting for slow leveling guildies. I wouldnt mind having a stab at the easymode lvl 70 pvp where you by design cant fight people higher level than you. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> </blockquote>easymode is stitting level locked in a zone where your pretty much protected .. and lvl 60 + people arriving to try and kill you will be wiped out quick style so your pretty safe to jump in leach fame and farm greens .. Easymode lvl 59 noob ftl

[Norrsken]

Callis@Nagafen wrote: <blockquote>Ulvhamne@Nagafen wrote: <blockquote>Aeeron@Nagafen wrote: <blockquote>Ulvhamne@Nagafen wrote: <blockquote>Aeeron@Nagafen wrote: <blockquote>Ulvhamne@Nagafen wrote: <blockquote>Aeeron@Nagafen wrote: <blockquote>Ulvhamne@Nagafen wrote: <blockquote>Aeeron@Nagafen wrote: <blockquote>my problem is level 15 dreadnaughts have no reason to be there and shoudn't, regardless of if t7 players abused t6 levelers. I dealt with being killed by reds as a grey clothie..alot of us did and now alot of people dont have to deal with it at all. LAME IMO. </blockquote>So, the lame bit is that you cant harass players as you yourself were harassed? Hmm... </blockquote> the lame bit is people like you who sit on sinking sands docks and wait for a tier 7 fight to happen and you cast one spell and bull [I cannot control my vocabulary] leech the fame/status/faction/token whatever. and yes its [I cannot control my vocabulary] that people were griefed countlessly in tier 6 and then they suddenly change the pvp limit. </blockquote>Lol. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> You obviously havent seen me around then. Np, wont hold that against you. Keep on whining about not being able to farm grays in a zone you really dont have any buisness being in. IT makes you look so good. </blockquote>,go play qeynos please sit on sinking sands docks as a mage and watch how many level 59s stand next to you for 1 minute swarming and kililng you. It USED to be a nice place to find fights but its now used to get free faction fame and status at level 10-59. </blockquote>Then why dont you lvl 70ies find a new spot to sit at? Since ss is a zone where 45-59 are supposed to actually be. And whoa! Guess what? Its the same for a solo FP mage. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> </blockquote>Okay so explain how its alright a level 15 can be on the docks if its a tier 6 zone. Im not gonna bother fighting because its obvious if sinking sands was opened up you'd have to lock at a different tier. </blockquote>If a lvl 15 can attack you and survive, that is your problem, you should oneshot him. And I dont see any reason why he shoudlnt be ther any less than he should be in nek. So your argument is, open up all zones to have no limits whatsoever because people are going to zones they are too low to go to? Guess what, that would make 70ies go farm grays in t2/3 zones to no end. Same reason SS have lvl restrictions nowadays. All the [I cannot control my vocabulary] couldnt keep their fingers off the grays, farming the [I cannot control my vocabulary] out of them. Had they not done that, SS would still be an unlimited zone, I guarantee it. AND, the reason I am staying 59 is Im waiting for slow leveling guildies. I wouldnt mind having a stab at the easymode lvl 70 pvp where you by design cant fight people higher level than you. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> </blockquote>easymode is stitting level locked in a zone where your pretty much protected .. and lvl 60 + people arriving to try and kill you will be wiped out quick style so your pretty safe to jump in leach fame and farm greens .. Easymode lvl 59 noob ftl </blockquote>Like I said earlier, people claming I do that havent seen me around. I've stood by when a lot of 70 fights went down near me. the times I DO butt in are usually when the guys on my side are losing and need the extra hand. But, I guess you havent seen me around, and I cant really hold that against you, so keep trying. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Norrsken]

<cite>Amphibia wrote:</cite><blockquote>Ulvhamne@Nagafen wrote: <blockquote>Aeeron@Nagafen wrote: <blockquote>Ulvhamne@Nagafen wrote: <blockquote>Aeeron@Nagafen wrote: <blockquote>Ulvhamne@Nagafen wrote: <blockquote>Aeeron@Nagafen wrote: <blockquote>Ulvhamne@Nagafen wrote: <blockquote>Aeeron@Nagafen wrote: <blockquote>my problem is level 15 dreadnaughts have no reason to be there and shoudn't, regardless of if t7 players abused t6 levelers. I dealt with being killed by reds as a grey clothie..alot of us did and now alot of people dont have to deal with it at all. LAME IMO. </blockquote>So, the lame bit is that you cant harass players as you yourself were harassed? Hmm... </blockquote> the lame bit is people like you who sit on sinking sands docks and wait for a tier 7 fight to happen and you cast one spell and bull [I cannot control my vocabulary] leech the fame/status/faction/token whatever. and yes its [I cannot control my vocabulary] that people were griefed countlessly in tier 6 and then they suddenly change the pvp limit. </blockquote>Lol. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> You obviously havent seen me around then. Np, wont hold that against you. Keep on whining about not being able to farm grays in a zone you really dont have any buisness being in. IT makes you look so good. </blockquote>,go play qeynos please sit on sinking sands docks as a mage and watch how many level 59s stand next to you for 1 minute swarming and kililng you. It USED to be a nice place to find fights but its now used to get free faction fame and status at level 10-59. </blockquote>Then why dont you lvl 70ies find a new spot to sit at? Since ss is a zone where 45-59 are supposed to actually be. And whoa! Guess what? Its the same for a solo FP mage. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> </blockquote>Okay so explain how its alright a level 15 can be on the docks if its a tier 6 zone. Im not gonna bother fighting because its obvious if sinking sands was opened up you'd have to lock at a different tier. </blockquote><span style="color: #ff0033">If a lvl 15 can attack you and survive, that is your problem, you should oneshot him.</span> And I dont see any reason why he shoudlnt be ther any less than he should be in nek. So your argument is, open up all zones to have no limits whatsoever because people are going to zones they are too low to go to? Guess what, that would make 70ies go farm grays in t2/3 zones to no end. Same reason SS have lvl restrictions nowadays. All the [I cannot control my vocabulary] couldnt keep their fingers off the grays, farming the [I cannot control my vocabulary] out of them. Had they not done that, SS would still be an unlimited zone, I guarantee it. AND, the reason I am staying 59 is Im waiting for slow leveling guildies. I wouldnt mind having a stab at the easymode lvl 70 pvp where you by design cant fight people higher level than you. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> </blockquote> Heh, who'd notice one level 15 when there are like 20 level 40-59 greys swarming you and hitting you at the same time.... As for 70 being easymode.... try it first, please. Nothing wrong with waiting for guildies etc, but as with most things, experience is the best teacher. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> </blockquote>All good and true. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> And yeah, Im usually not really noticing them lowbie grays either, especially on my sk, since they usually just kill themselves on my procs. And I'll get there, preferably before RoK too. Hehe.

[HighlandsDrift]

<p>I think if they dont want open the zone back up a more reasonable way to cure the problem is to make it that evertime a grey attacks a red con player they become carnaged flagged for thirty minuets.  This would allow the players that want to use the zone as intended and would make greys think twice before fame leaching.</p><p>PLus would allow the person that just got ganked by the leachers to get a lil payback.</p><p>Lets face it a group of 59 has a huge advantage over a lvl 70 especialy if that 70 is engaged in pvp with another 70.  Greys have the chance to all gather around thier target and attack at once and now that lower lvl targets land more often you stay stunned or rooted whole time. Why they made it so lower lvl can hit you is beyound me.  IMHO a payer 11 levels lowers should not be able to touch a lvl 70, yet twinked out 59's and thier groups do it all the time.</p><p>level locking guilds are just another avenue to get a stupid title that means nothing. </p>

[shalom]

Ulvhamne@Nagafen wrote: <blockquote>Aeeron@Nagafen wrote: <blockquote>Ulvhamne@Nagafen wrote: <blockquote>Aeeron@Nagafen wrote: <blockquote>Ulvhamne@Nagafen wrote: <blockquote>Aeeron@Nagafen wrote: <blockquote>Ulvhamne@Nagafen wrote: <blockquote>Aeeron@Nagafen wrote: <blockquote>my problem is level 15 dreadnaughts have no reason to be there and shoudn't, regardless of if t7 players abused t6 levelers. I dealt with being killed by reds as a grey clothie..alot of us did and now alot of people dont have to deal with it at all. LAME IMO. </blockquote>So, the lame bit is that you cant harass players as you yourself were harassed? Hmm... </blockquote> the lame bit is people like you who sit on sinking sands docks and wait for a tier 7 fight to happen and you cast one spell and bull [I cannot control my vocabulary] leech the fame/status/faction/token whatever. and yes its [I cannot control my vocabulary] that people were griefed countlessly in tier 6 and then they suddenly change the pvp limit. </blockquote>Lol. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> You obviously havent seen me around then. Np, wont hold that against you. Keep on whining about not being able to farm grays in a zone you really dont have any buisness being in. IT makes you look so good. </blockquote>,go play qeynos please sit on sinking sands docks as a mage and watch how many level 59s stand next to you for 1 minute swarming and kililng you. It USED to be a nice place to find fights but its now used to get free faction fame and status at level 10-59. </blockquote>Then why dont you lvl 70ies find a new spot to sit at? Since ss is a zone where 45-59 are supposed to actually be. And whoa! Guess what? Its the same for a solo FP mage. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> </blockquote>Okay so explain how its alright a level 15 can be on the docks if its a tier 6 zone. Im not gonna bother fighting because its obvious if sinking sands was opened up you'd have to lock at a different tier. </blockquote>If a lvl 15 can attack you and survive, that is your problem, you should oneshot him. And I dont see any reason why he shoudlnt be ther any less than he should be in nek. So your argument is, open up all zones to have no limits whatsoever because people are going to zones they are too low to go to? Guess what, that would make 70ies go farm grays in t2/3 zones to no end. Same reason SS have lvl restrictions nowadays. All the [I cannot control my vocabulary] couldnt keep their fingers off the grays, farming the [I cannot control my vocabulary] out of them. Had they not done that, SS would still be an unlimited zone, I guarantee it. AND, the reason I am staying 59 is Im waiting for slow leveling guildies. <span style="color: #cc0033">I wouldnt mind having a stab at the easymode lvl 70 pvp where you by design cant fight people higher level than you.</span> <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> </blockquote><p>Easymode? Once you grow some and lvl to 60 you'll find 70s are a different fish.  You don't know if this lvl70 has M/C gear or EOF Raid gear...the difference is tremendous.  At 70 you have to know your opponents, what gear they have, how they like to open, etc.</p><p>If you think 70 is easymode compared to 59, do yourself a favor and stay there...you wont like 70. </p>

[Darkor]

Cant be arsed to argue with locked lvl 59 player.

[Tanan]

Ulvhamne@Nagafen wrote: <blockquote>AND, the reason I am staying 59 is Im waiting for slow leveling guildies. </blockquote> I invite everyone to go look at the guild roster of Shadow Lords of Nagafan and make your own decision.

[Darkor]

Tanan@Venekor wrote: <blockquote>Ulvhamne@Nagafen wrote: <blockquote>AND, the reason I am staying 59 is Im waiting for slow leveling guildies. </blockquote> I invite everyone to go look at the guild roster of Shadow Lords of Nagafan and make your own decision.</blockquote> Ulvhammer just got pwned - ROFLMAO!

[Izzypop]

Let's start hearing ways that the problem of leeches can be fixed in all zones. Universal level ranges in all zones.  The level range players can attack you in should not change from zone to zone. I have heard many players ask for this.  They usual example is a 4 level range until level X, then a 6 until level Y then an 8 until level Z all the way up until at some point your ranges become unlimited. Nerf Gray vhs Red infamy hits both ways.  Grays and reds can fight, sometimes it's fun, but it shouldn't count for full infamy hits.  It's usually going to be either a swarm of grays attacking a horribly outnumbered reds, or a red attempting to trick grays into attacking him while grays are fighting other grays. Targeting the SS docks just means the gangs of infamy leeching red ganking grays will move to the KoS spires and still gank reds while protected by gray immunity.

[Bloodfa]

Level range following through zones regardless of where you are, I like that.  But what about groups?  Average level <u>vs</u> average level?  Raids?  Just curious as to how that would be implemented.

[Norrsken]

Tanan@Venekor wrote: <blockquote>Ulvhamne@Nagafen wrote: <blockquote>AND, the reason I am staying 59 is Im waiting for slow leveling guildies. </blockquote> I invite everyone to go look at the guild roster of Shadow Lords of Nagafan and make your own decision.</blockquote>Uhm, whats wrong with it? We really dont have anyone at 70 since up till about gu36, people didnt like the way t7 pvp were completely unbalanced. So, we never moved into those levels. We also lost about 3/4 of our members a few monts back, and the current plan is to make it to 70 with a solid group to get some new casual hardcore pvpers. Feel free to look at the roster all you like. PRetty much every member we have is a kickass pvper. And yeha, most of us have locked lowbie toons. Most people have you know, and I've never even tried to hide that we in shadow lords do.

[Norrsken]

<cite>Ajjantis wrote:</cite><blockquote>Tanan@Venekor wrote: <blockquote>Ulvhamne@Nagafen wrote: <blockquote>AND, the reason I am staying 59 is Im waiting for slow leveling guildies. </blockquote> I invite everyone to go look at the guild roster of Shadow Lords of Nagafan and make your own decision.</blockquote> Ulvhammer just got pwned - ROFLMAO!</blockquote>Haha. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> After your rampant whinage, I love seeing you on someones side against me. Makes me look good and them bad. And I mean, my name is 3 rows above yours. And you STILL couldn't spell it right.<img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Norrsken]

Callis@Nagafen wrote: <blockquote>Ulvhamne@Nagafen wrote: <blockquote>Aeeron@Nagafen wrote: <blockquote>Ulvhamne@Nagafen wrote: <blockquote>Aeeron@Nagafen wrote: <blockquote>Ulvhamne@Nagafen wrote: <blockquote>Aeeron@Nagafen wrote: <blockquote>Ulvhamne@Nagafen wrote: <blockquote>Aeeron@Nagafen wrote: <blockquote>my problem is level 15 dreadnaughts have no reason to be there and shoudn't, regardless of if t7 players abused t6 levelers. I dealt with being killed by reds as a grey clothie..alot of us did and now alot of people dont have to deal with it at all. LAME IMO. </blockquote>So, the lame bit is that you cant harass players as you yourself were harassed? Hmm... </blockquote> the lame bit is people like you who sit on sinking sands docks and wait for a tier 7 fight to happen and you cast one spell and bull [I cannot control my vocabulary] leech the fame/status/faction/token whatever. and yes its [I cannot control my vocabulary] that people were griefed countlessly in tier 6 and then they suddenly change the pvp limit. </blockquote>Lol. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> You obviously havent seen me around then. Np, wont hold that against you. Keep on whining about not being able to farm grays in a zone you really dont have any buisness being in. IT makes you look so good. </blockquote>,go play qeynos please sit on sinking sands docks as a mage and watch how many level 59s stand next to you for 1 minute swarming and kililng you. It USED to be a nice place to find fights but its now used to get free faction fame and status at level 10-59. </blockquote>Then why dont you lvl 70ies find a new spot to sit at? Since ss is a zone where 45-59 are supposed to actually be. And whoa! Guess what? Its the same for a solo FP mage. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> </blockquote>Okay so explain how its alright a level 15 can be on the docks if its a tier 6 zone. Im not gonna bother fighting because its obvious if sinking sands was opened up you'd have to lock at a different tier. </blockquote>If a lvl 15 can attack you and survive, that is your problem, you should oneshot him. And I dont see any reason why he shoudlnt be ther any less than he should be in nek. So your argument is, open up all zones to have no limits whatsoever because people are going to zones they are too low to go to? Guess what, that would make 70ies go farm grays in t2/3 zones to no end. Same reason SS have lvl restrictions nowadays. All the [I cannot control my vocabulary] couldnt keep their fingers off the grays, farming the [I cannot control my vocabulary] out of them. Had they not done that, SS would still be an unlimited zone, I guarantee it. AND, the reason I am staying 59 is Im waiting for slow leveling guildies. I wouldnt mind having a stab at the easymode lvl 70 pvp where you by design cant fight people higher level than you. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> </blockquote>easymode is stitting level locked in a zone where your pretty much protected .. and lvl 60 + people arriving to try and kill you will be wiped out quick style so your pretty safe to jump in leach fame and farm greens .. Easymode lvl 59 noob ftl </blockquote> What you lvl 70 oh so high and mighty noobs claim is that lvl 70 pvp is a whole other ballgame. Then you go tell me to get to 60 to know what t7 pvp is all about. Yeah. Gray farming. I already knew that. You guys really impress me with your gray farming and stuff. Gee. And my last pvp fight were 1 vs 2. 2 lvl 58 bruisers. I go for greens, yeah. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Though, I have to tell the truth and say I evaced from two whitecons yesterday. just as the servers went down. I knew both of them to be solid pvpers, and 1 vs 2 was a sure loss for me. HAd they tried to 1 on 1 me, I'd have fought them both. Just as I've stood around plenty of time when orange con rangers hump my legs. And, even though I am safe to jump n and leech ame, I dont. You people are getting tiresome claiming that. Come to SS and see me strut about. Most of the time I am running about in the actual zone, harvesting shinies while looking for pvp. But I guess thats why you guys claiming I leech infamy never see me. You all hang around a safespot by the docks and carpet so you can fly away if something that looks to be an even close fight comes around.

[Sildeven]

<cite>Rabbitoh wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>On Naggy the swams of grey leeches around the docks are is becoming ridiculous. Anything from lvl 20s to 61's are camping the dock area to leech fame off lvl 70 players engaged in decent pvp fights.</p><p>Molok ranger of Vigilante.</p></blockquote>Stay away from the dock then carpet hugger.  There is like a million places to fight in ss that a level 20 could never make it to.  I guess we will make it unlimited so all the bad [Removed for Content] 70s can sit there and pick off 50s trying to harvest for there armor.  Gimme a break.  You act like this only happens at ss.  Grey leachers are everywhere. 

[Spider]

it seems to me they need to simply fix the issues of grey ganking rather than once again remove one of the only t6 zones around by making it unlimited so taht 50s people get overhunted by 70s again that would be a simple reversal of whos doing the ganking and no one would go there anymore

[Vilesummon]

<cite>Izzypop wrote:</cite><blockquote>Let's start hearing ways that the problem of leeches can be fixed in all zones. Universal level ranges in all zones.  The level range players can attack you in should not change from zone to zone. I have heard many players ask for this.  They usual example is a 4 level range until level X, then a 6 until level Y then an 8 until level Z all the way up until at some point your ranges become unlimited. Nerf Gray vhs Red infamy hits both ways.  Grays and reds can fight, sometimes it's fun, but it shouldn't count for full infamy hits.  It's usually going to be either a swarm of grays attacking a horribly outnumbered reds, or a red attempting to trick grays into attacking him while grays are fighting other grays. Targeting the SS docks just means the gangs of infamy leeching red ganking grays will move to the KoS spires and still gank reds while protected by gray immunity. </blockquote> Nerfing the fame/infamy thing would be a great solution...along with the no dropping of tokens because then there is no incentive for the grays to hover around the red. Yeah, no faction either. You are either playable in the zone...or you get nothing for the fight. Ironically, most of this would be a totally pointless discussion if SOE would fix the resist/mitigations to properly work for the higher level toons. God forbid they actually fix something instead of NERF something.

[silentpsycho]

<cite>Rabbitoh wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>As the title suggested, make SS a zone where any lvl can be attacked like it use to be.</p><p>On Naggy the swams of grey leeches around the docks are is becoming ridiculous. Anything from lvl 20s to 61's are camping the dock area to leech fame off lvl 70 players engaged in decent pvp fights.</p><p>If these little leeches want to abuse the lvl restrictiions then i suggest SS be opened upped. There is no reason why it shouldn't be as there are plenty of zones for the nooblets to quest in, now that EoF has been introduced.</p><p>Maybe this will stop the x2 of greys that just sit there waiting to leech.</p><p>Molok ranger of Vigilante.</p></blockquote>Um, SS is a level 45-55 zone.  Take your level 70 [Removed for Content] up to KOS or one of the T6-7 fairy land zones.  I have no more desire to be fabled out 70's fodder while trying to level up in SS than I do to prove I have no skill by sitting around ganking greys myself.  Once a grey attacks you, go kill him.  I fail to see what your problem is.

[EQ2Playa432]

<cite>silentpsycho wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Rabbitoh wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>As the title suggested, make SS a zone where any lvl can be attacked like it use to be.</p><p>On Naggy the swams of grey leeches around the docks are is becoming ridiculous. Anything from lvl 20s to 61's are camping the dock area to leech fame off lvl 70 players engaged in decent pvp fights.</p><p>If these little leeches want to abuse the lvl restrictiions then i suggest SS be opened upped. There is no reason why it shouldn't be as there are plenty of zones for the nooblets to quest in, now that EoF has been introduced.</p><p>Maybe this will stop the x2 of greys that just sit there waiting to leech.</p><p>Molok ranger of Vigilante.</p></blockquote>Um, SS is a level 45-55 zone.  Take your level 70 [I cannot control my vocabulary] up to KOS or one of the T6-7 fairy land zones.  I have no more desire to be fabled out 70's fodder while trying to level up in SS than I do to prove I have no skill by sitting around ganking greys myself.  Once a grey attacks you, go kill him.  I fail to see what your problem is. </blockquote>Do you understand whats going on? Level 70s are fighting each other when grays come in midfight and leech fame off of one of the 70 groups.

[silentpsycho]

Yeah, I get it.  People forget this is a PVP server all the time, but to see the "elite" level 70 pvp'ers come to the forums to whine about losing fame/infamy on a PVP server, well, its a little embarassing.  I mean, sheesh, if you can't cut it in KOS or EOF zones, by all means, come to SS and look for that thrill of ganking greys harvesting & questing.  And then fight the 70's called in to clear you out of the zone (you have no business in) in high traffic areas like complete nubs and let lowbies leech infamy from you.  The horror.

[silentpsycho]

<cite>Spider wrote:</cite><blockquote>it seems to me they need to simply fix the issues of grey ganking rather than once again remove one of the only t6 zones around by making it unlimited so taht 50s people get overhunted by 70s again that would be a simple reversal of whos doing the ganking and no one would go there anymore</blockquote><p> How do you propose to fix the problem of grey ganking?</p><p>Personally, I'm not opposed to making everything past T4 open PVP.  Heck, T1 for that matter... But a lot of people have had the benefit of leveling through T5-6 with DOF "locked down" and it might not be fair to those coming up now (then again, it would be fair to those of us who came up when it was open before...)  Now I've totally confused myself.</p><p> Heh, the point I was trying to make earlier is that fighting by the docks or other high traffic areas results in fame leaches of all sorts - even - gasp - even (or for those of you not locked at 70) higher con's who can actually impact the outcome of the fight.  And doing so is pretty stupid, especially for someone seasoned enough to get to 70 on a PVP server with a title worth leaching.  Why are people so afraid to move away from the carpet/pad/bell anyway?</p>

[Norrsken]

<cite>silentpsycho wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Spider wrote:</cite><blockquote>it seems to me they need to simply fix the issues of grey ganking rather than once again remove one of the only t6 zones around by making it unlimited so taht 50s people get overhunted by 70s again that would be a simple reversal of whos doing the ganking and no one would go there anymore</blockquote><p> How do you propose to fix the problem of grey ganking?</p><p>Personally, I'm not opposed to making everything past T4 open PVP.  Heck, T1 for that matter... But a lot of people have had the benefit of leveling through T5-6 with DOF "locked down" and it might not be fair to those coming up now (then again, it would be fair to those of us who came up when it was open before...)  Now I've totally confused myself.</p><p> Heh, the point I was trying to make earlier is that fighting by the docks or other high traffic areas results in fame leaches of all sorts - even - gasp - even (or for those of you not locked at 70) higher con's who can actually impact the outcome of the fight.  And doing so is pretty stupid, especially for someone seasoned enough to get to 70 on a PVP server with a title worth leaching.  Why are people so afraid to move away from the carpet/pad/bell anyway?</p></blockquote>I'd say people are scared of losing those hard earned titles to gank squads roaming the zones, so they stay in safe spots where there is an easy getaway. I'd prefer a pvp system where levels didnt matter much, so lvl ranges could be removed. As it is now, the level rangers really need to be there. :/ To much of an immature playerbase to let them roam free. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Vilesummon]

<cite>silentpsycho wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Rabbitoh wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>As the title suggested, make SS a zone where any lvl can be attacked like it use to be.</p><p>On Naggy the swams of grey leeches around the docks are is becoming ridiculous. Anything from lvl 20s to 61's are camping the dock area to leech fame off lvl 70 players engaged in decent pvp fights.</p><p>If these little leeches want to abuse the lvl restrictiions then i suggest SS be opened upped. There is no reason why it shouldn't be as there are plenty of zones for the nooblets to quest in, now that EoF has been introduced.</p><p>Maybe this will stop the x2 of greys that just sit there waiting to leech.</p><p>Molok ranger of Vigilante.</p></blockquote>Um, SS is a level 45-55 zone.  Take your level 70 [I cannot control my vocabulary] up to KOS or one of the T6-7 fairy land zones.  I have no more desire to be fabled out 70's fodder while trying to level up in SS than I do to prove I have no skill by sitting around ganking greys myself.  Once a grey attacks you, go kill him.  I fail to see what your problem is. </blockquote> I think the problem you are failing to see (by choice IMO) is this. Sure, SS is the level range you portrayed BUT all the other solutions that you have proposed for PVP for the 70s is also problematic. KOS is a nightmare for pvp with all the cloud hopping and parachuting among other things. The t7 areas like loping plains are laid out in such a way that there is no clear surface area for pvp without a serious risk of adds or other problems like that. God forbid you actually think that the 70s just want a place to be able to get it on without all the theatrics of adds or lil gray gank squads. As I have said time and time again, if SOE would simply fix the mechanics of the resists and mitigations of the higher levels in the first place, this would be a NON-issue. Fact is, SOE hasn't done it so the 70s are looking for SOME remedy to what is a serious issue. Guess what, we all made it to 70 even when SS was unlimited. I really enjoy the fact that you portray it in such a way that the 70s have NO business being in that level zone (last I knew our 57-60 skills need tier 6 rares plus we also may have a tradeskiller or 2 that needs supplies. You put all the blame on the 70s for being in the WRONG place when, in fact, 70s should have more entitlements to go wherever the hell they want. Furthermore, you may want to also look at another side of your argument....ummm, how many of those level 45-55 quests require people to endlessly sit at the dock. You want to look at the motives of 70s being in the zone, but want to ignore the fact that the leeches are sitting there. Maybe we should try this approach, why aren't these hard core questers in their level appropriate zone finishing things like lfay quest or RV quests or LS quests. With your pompous and arrogant attitude about telling 70s where they shouldn't be, I would almost think you work for SOE. The end game players are the ones that ROK is being designed for (with some exception for the new race); it would be nice if SOE and some players actually take care of some of the concerns of the end game players. None of the 70s have called for nerfs in this thread, we either need mechanics to work right or some other remedy....my preference would be for the mechanics to work properly. Perhaps, at some point this can be done before half the player population leaves for games like Warhammer or Conan that are due out before the release of ROK. Feel free to continue to tell the 70s where they belong though...good thinking. Always the other guy, isn't it? Couldn't possible be a serious issue that needs dealt with!!!

[EQ2Playa432]

The post above pretty much summed it up.

[Spider]

<p>realisticaly it should work like it does with mobs </p><p>if someone tries to attack a red mob they WILL get rocked hardcore </p><p>at the same time if you kill a grey mob u get jack </p><p>so it should be nearly immpossible for a grey to even hit a read and much like in pve there should be little to no reward for the kill ( in pve u get next to no xp ) </p><p>and when killing greys there should be little to no gain ( excep when they attak you perhaps gaining some faction  or something) </p>

[Cyst]

As a T7 player, I do not want an arena like area to fight in with little risk outside of who has the bigger group.

[Sildeven]

<cite>Spider wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>so it should be nearly immpossible for a grey to even hit a read and much like in pve there should be little to no reward for the kill ( in pve u get next to no xp ) </p></blockquote> Why should it be impossible for 52's that are fully mastered, pvp gear and max aa for their level not to be able to hit a deadbeat level 70 with no title when its 5 or 6 against 1?  You act like there is sooo much of a difference in levels.  The problem is 70s dont have anyone to do it to so you cant really get back at anyone. lol sorry for your luck.  You dont hear any of the other levels here complaining about getting ganked and it happens every day.  What is so special about a 70 getting ganked compared to a 50 getting ganked by 30s?  Learn how to fight back and stop whining.

[silentpsycho]

<p>Ok, let me point out the obvious for you guys who think SS docks is the end-all-be-all PVP spot for level 70's to "get it on".  SS docks is a very high traffic area for toons from the mid 40's all the way to 70's.  If you are looking for a nice fair 1 on 1 or group on group fight there, you are a [Removed for Content].  Sure, it's really nice that you don't have to worry about the environment anywhere in these zones at your level.  But to whine that someone outside of your little carebare fair fight fantasy tossed a hit in here or there to "leach" fame because you chose to fight in one of the most high traffic areas on the server, well, it's pretty stupid.  And the proposed fix - make greys attackable so you can feel better about yourself, well, it's comical.  Not unexpected, but humorous none the less.</p><p>Now, a constructive solution that would solve the leach problem for all tiers and not just the 70's who can't cut it in T7 PVP zones would involve the ability to only reward the members of the group engaged in a PVP kill who contributed over 50% of the total damage, or, even better IMHO, cut it off at first hit like PVE mobs.  Perhaps do a combination of both - first hit and over 50% pvp damage.  That way, if a mob, or someone outside your group does most of the damage to kill another player, you get nothing (same amount dropped, but rewards go either "poof" or to the highest contributing party.  I know its hard to be objective once you get your dander up, but think about it.  I know I'd love to be able to prevent folks from ninja looting the chests and tokens I work so hard for regardless of what tiered toon I happen to be playing at the moment.  </p><p>Thoughts?</p>

[xfbishop]

<cite>silentpsycho wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Ok, let me point out the obvious for you guys who think SS docks is the end-all-be-all PVP spot for level 70's to "get it on".  SS docks is a very high traffic area for toons from the mid 40's all the way to 70's.  If you are looking for a nice fair 1 on 1 or group on group fight there, you are a [Removed for Content].  Sure, it's really nice that you don't have to worry about the environment anywhere in these zones at your level.  But to whine that someone outside of your little carebare fair fight fantasy tossed a hit in here or there to "leach" fame because you chose to fight in one of the most high traffic areas on the server, well, it's pretty stupid.  And the proposed fix - make greys attackable so you can feel better about yourself, well, it's comical.  Not unexpected, but humorous none the less.</p><p>Now, a constructive solution that would solve the leach problem for all tiers and not just the 70's who can't cut it in T7 PVP zones would involve the ability to only reward the members of the group engaged in a PVP kill who contributed over 50% of the total damage, or, even better IMHO, cut it off at first hit like PVE mobs.  Perhaps do a combination of both - first hit and over 50% pvp damage.  That way, if a mob, or someone outside your group does most of the damage to kill another player, you get nothing (same amount dropped, but rewards go either "poof" or to the highest contributing party.  I know its hard to be objective once you get your dander up, but think about it.  I know I'd love to be able to prevent folks from ninja looting the chests and tokens I work so hard for regardless of what tiered toon I happen to be playing at the moment.  </p><p>Thoughts?</p></blockquote><p> too much coding imo dont need the lag from it. the last thing pvp needs is more rules anyway.</p><p> just open the [I cannot control my vocabulary] up, all these lvl 5x people say there is no reason spells shouldnt be able to hit 70's so they can clearly defend themselves so imo there is no issue with having open pvp, or hell, even 20 levels for T6 zones.</p><p> edit: oh, and my monk leveled during the open pvp in ss days and my warlock leveled during 10 levels there, and it was WAY easier to deal with the 70's killing me for faction once every 1/2 hour than the griefing [Removed for Content] that are out there now.</p>

[Vilesummon]

<cite>Sildeven wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Spider wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>so it should be nearly immpossible for a grey to even hit a read and much like in pve there should be little to no reward for the kill ( in pve u get next to no xp ) </p></blockquote> Why should it be impossible for 52's that are fully mastered, pvp gear and max aa for their level not to be able to hit a deadbeat level 70 with no title when its 5 or 6 against 1?  You act like there is sooo much of a difference in levels.  The problem is 70s dont have anyone to do it to so you cant really get back at anyone. lol sorry for your luck.  You dont hear any of the other levels here complaining about getting ganked and it happens every day.  What is so special about a 70 getting ganked compared to a 50 getting ganked by 30s?  Learn how to fight back and stop whining. </blockquote>Hey hotshot, take your level 52 twinked group up to a level 70 mob and see how that works for you. You will get smoked and you know it. Fact is the mitigation/resists are screwed beyond belief for the upper tier players. Not saying you can't land a skill on a 70, but guess what, it should either be outright resisted or do so little damage that a tick or 2 of the normal in combat health regen would fix you. You act like your level 52 twink stuff gives you a right to compete with the 70s...even though half of us are no either entirely or mostly decked out in fabled raid gear. If it isn't so much of a difference in level, get up here and try it on, see how you like it. As for your other comment about other levels complaining about ganking....NOOB, this is about SS which leaves it up for the higher levels, there are PLENTY of other posts about the same issue and twinks/locking/grays vs reds all OVER the forum. Don't be blind to what is going on around you. Your dumb attitude is part of the problem with the game...a 70 is SUPPOSED to be special especially when they take the time to master and fable out. It is this arrogance that is most alarming to me because as I said, I know several other MMOs that are coming out that some high end players will be trying because of issues like this that get ignored. I certainly hope that you lil lockers and leeches enjoy the game if half the population does go to try Conan or Warhammer because more and more often I hear talk about this. I can tell you that at least 10 people in my guild have applied for beta testing on the other games just to see if the pvp mechanics are better. You keep your sense of entitlement and what you deserve for only running 3/4 of the race and see what it gets you in the end...you may find that it is going to be a lonely existence. SOE may also want to keep that in mind...not like they are the only game in town...especially in the next few months.

[Spider]

<p>the biggest problem is al lthe little leet kiddies that wanna feel like superman and whine and cry when they cant </p><p>if i fight a red con mob i get resistsed or miss on 98 % of all my attacks and spells  it shoudl be the same for fighting red conned players </p><p>but ss should remain a limited zone so taht all the t6 players have someone to grind and pvp  and quest w/o worriing about being ganked by 70's </p>

[Izzypop]

Once again this thread is off topic. The debate if grays are overpowered against reds is a totally separate topic from the level ranges of zones.  Grays being overpowered against reds is a very legitimate topic and is deserving of time to debate, but even if they are overpowered (which I believe they are) opening SS to be an unlimited pvp range zone won't fix the base problems.  Opening SS to be an unlimited pvp zone would  just be giving a car with a broken engine a new paint job.  Fix the damm engine instead.

[songsta]

<cite>Rabbitoh wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>As the title suggested, make SS a zone where any lvl can be attacked like it use to be.</p><p>On Naggy the swams of grey leeches around the docks are is becoming ridiculous. Anything from lvl 20s to 61's are camping the dock area to leech fame off lvl 70 players engaged in decent pvp fights.</p><p>If these little leeches want to abuse the lvl restrictiions then i suggest SS be opened upped. There is no reason why it shouldn't be as there are plenty of zones for the nooblets to quest in, now that EoF has been introduced.</p><p>Maybe this will stop the x2 of greys that just sit there waiting to leech.</p><p>Molok ranger of Vigilante.</p></blockquote>HAHA i did that with my friend the other day. got 2 tokens toward my pvp gear on my asn and im lvl 52=]

[silentpsycho]

<cite>Rabbitoh wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>As the title suggested, make SS a zone where any lvl can be attacked like it use to be.</p><p>On Naggy the swams of grey leeches around the docks are is becoming ridiculous. Anything from lvl 20s to 61's are camping the dock area to leech fame off lvl 70 players engaged in decent pvp fights.</p><p>If these little leeches want to abuse the lvl restrictiions then i suggest SS be opened upped. There is no reason why it shouldn't be as there are plenty of zones for the nooblets to quest in, now that EoF has been introduced.</p><p>Maybe this will stop the x2 of greys that just sit there waiting to leech.</p><p>Molok ranger of Vigilante.</p></blockquote><p>You know whats even worse?  The little (actually, level 70) fame [Removed for Content] who use an exploit or hack to fall through the world at the docks just to leach fame with complete immunity to reprisal.  Then again, when I saw this happening, I moved away from the docks... problem solved, for me at least.  You see, I, for one, don't think I have the right to pvp anywhere I feel like it and then come to the boards and complain when things don't go my way.  And I certainly wouldn't ask for the ability to gank greys because I lack the skill to fight in T7 areas.  </p><p>In any case, the exploit that puts people under the world if they jump while flying from One Rock at just the right moment needs to be fixed, and the people /reported for exploiting it dealt with appropriately IMHO.</p><p>Now that all my alts are 60+, I really don't care one way or another if SS/EOF becomse open PVP again.  The sort of 70's who hang around the docks all day looking for the people who just dinged 60 for free and easy kills are just more easy PVP gear tokens waiting to be collected IMHO.</p>

[Spider]

<p>leave ss the heck alone theres no good reason why it should be unlimited </p><p>the ONLY reason it was unlimited to begin with is because it WAS atop tier zone when it came out</p><p>now thats no longer the case </p><p>and with levels going to 80 its even LESS the case so get over it</p>

[Pudis]

<p>Personally i say make it all ffa pvp but with coin/item/token drop to the rate it is ... so SS is unlimited but you can only gain coin/token/item if you are within 10 levels, faction is the same - and the only reason i say this is because as a t7 caster, faction grind in pvp for 2 years has been incredibly hard ... or at least make faction within 20 lvls or something so you cant go bashing lowbies </p>

[Norrsken]

<cite>Spider wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>leave ss the heck alone theres no good reason why it should be unlimited </p><p>the ONLY reason it was unlimited to begin with is because it WAS atop tier zone when it came out</p><p>now thats no longer the case </p><p>and with levels going to 80 its even LESS the case so get over it</p></blockquote>Wasnt a top tier zone when pvp came out though.

[Vilesummon]

Ulvhamne@Nagafen wrote: <blockquote><cite>Spider wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>leave ss the heck alone theres no good reason why it should be unlimited </p><p>the ONLY reason it was unlimited to begin with is because it WAS atop tier zone when it came out</p><p>now thats no longer the case </p><p>and with levels going to 80 its even LESS the case so get over it</p></blockquote>Wasnt a top tier zone when pvp came out though. </blockquote>He is right, KOS was top zone when pvp was introduced, which means all the old school 70s had to grin and bear it even when it wasn't the top zone.

[Norrsken]

Vilesummon@Venekor wrote: <blockquote>Ulvhamne@Nagafen wrote: <blockquote><cite>Spider wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>leave ss the heck alone theres no good reason why it should be unlimited </p><p>the ONLY reason it was unlimited to begin with is because it WAS atop tier zone when it came out</p><p>now thats no longer the case </p><p>and with levels going to 80 its even LESS the case so get over it</p></blockquote>Wasnt a top tier zone when pvp came out though. </blockquote>He is right, KOS was top zone when pvp was introduced, which means all the old school 70s had to grin and bear it even when it wasn't the top zone. </blockquote>uhm, yah? Still doesnt change much. First ones to level up were the ones that had it easy. the ones that followed after were the ones farmed. And it just kept getting worse, so they slapped a lvl range on the zone to cull the gray farming.

[Sildeven]

<cite>Pudissy wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Personally i say make it all ffa pvp but with coin/item/token drop to the rate it is ... so SS is unlimited but you can only gain coin/token/item if you are within 10 levels, faction is the same - and the only reason i say this is because as a t7 caster, faction grind in pvp for 2 years has been incredibly hard ... or at least make faction within 20 lvls or something so you cant go bashing lowbies </p></blockquote> Ok so you want to beable to gank level 50s for faction cause you suck at T7 and cant kill many people?  That is lame.  And if you cant get faction terrorize all the other greys that are trying to get aa?  Faction shouldnt even be a problem at t7 if you spent the time to learn your char and kill people as you level up. 

[Vilesummon]

Ulvhamne@Nagafen wrote: <blockquote>Vilesummon@Venekor wrote: <blockquote>Ulvhamne@Nagafen wrote: <blockquote><cite>Spider wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>leave ss the heck alone theres no good reason why it should be unlimited </p><p>the ONLY reason it was unlimited to begin with is because it WAS atop tier zone when it came out</p><p>now thats no longer the case </p><p>and with levels going to 80 its even LESS the case so get over it</p></blockquote>Wasnt a top tier zone when pvp came out though. </blockquote>He is right, KOS was top zone when pvp was introduced, which means all the old school 70s had to grin and bear it even when it wasn't the top zone. </blockquote>uhm, yah? Still doesnt change much. First ones to level up were the ones that had it easy. the ones that followed after were the ones farmed. And it just kept getting worse, so they slapped a lvl range on the zone to cull the gray farming. </blockquote><span style="color: #0000ff">First ones may have had it easiest, but guess what, as one of the people that leveled after the initial wave of 70s, I still experienced and lived through the days of unlimited SS. A lot of us did. Again, all of it would be a non-starter for a discussion IF soe would fix the mechanics of our resists and mitigations. </span>

[Mildavyn]

<p>At this point I would settle for increasing the level range to 12. That way all those little punks who sit at level 58/59 on the docks waiting to gank any 70s they see would get some of their own medicine. As it stands now, a group of 50s will kill a 70 almost every time. Hell, I watched my group kill a level 70 swashbuckler... at level 35. THAT is just wrong.</p><p>FIX RESISTS. Resists should scale to the point that greys can land maybe one out of every 6-7 spells.</p>

[Pudis]

<cite>Sildeven wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Pudissy wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Personally i say make it all ffa pvp but with coin/item/token drop to the rate it is ... so SS is unlimited but you can only gain coin/token/item if you are within 10 levels, faction is the same - and the only reason i say this is because as a t7 caster, faction grind in pvp for 2 years has been incredibly hard ... or at least make faction within 20 lvls or something so you cant go bashing lowbies </p></blockquote> Ok so you want to beable to gank level 50s for faction cause you suck at T7 and cant kill many people?  That is lame.  And if you cant get faction terrorize all the other greys that are trying to get aa?  Faction shouldnt even be a problem at t7 if you spent the time to learn your char and kill people as you level up.  </blockquote><p>LOL is the only answer people can come up with is 'learn your character' ... what lame answers tbh. Actually i am coming from a place of 2 years of impossible faction grind due to severe imbalance from casters to scout class, so yes i would like the ability scouts have had for 2 years, i.e. infact someone said it best on another recent post, i dont think about killing casters, tbh my attention is elsewhere, 3 buttons and their dead ... well i would like to enjoy that for a while, but wait i cant as i dont know how to play my character, oh well back to killing fellow 70's if they dont run, or evac or hide because thats all scouts do recently, they run, evac and hide on account of the fodder fighting back ... seems my 40k faction will be done by 2010 </p><p>Alls fair in love and EQ2, oh wait no it isnt, i beleieve its ok to have farmed players for 2 years who couldnt hit back, use them as slot machines etc etc etc, but when finally the lovin comes their way after so long ... all you hear is the distant yet thundering sound of NERF, NERF, NERF the casters ... we have to actually try now and they hit back ... we cant farm easy faction/tokens anymore becuase they have decided against the domestic abuse they had receieved and are now actually hard work, but wait if we cant get them in the field, i know we'll stop them enjoying what we had for 2 years ... free and easy infamy, its OK for us, but not for them ... dude i have one thing to say ... YOU GO LEARN YOUR CLASS</p>

[The_Real_Ohno]

Just wait till RoK comes out, all the T7 zones are unlimited.  Once ya get to 80, the 60+ are fair game. <img src="/smilies/908627bbe5e9f6a080977db8c365caff.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Amphibia]

<cite>Sildeven wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Pudissy wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Personally i say make it all ffa pvp but with coin/item/token drop to the rate it is ... so SS is unlimited but you can only gain coin/token/item if you are within 10 levels, faction is the same - and the only reason i say this is because as a t7 caster, faction grind in pvp for 2 years has been incredibly hard ... or at least make faction within 20 lvls or something so you cant go bashing lowbies </p></blockquote> Ok so you want to beable to gank level 50s for faction cause you suck at T7 and cant kill many people?  That is lame.  And if you cant get faction terrorize all the other greys that are trying to get aa?  Faction shouldnt even be a problem at t7 if you spent the time to learn your char and kill people as you level up.  </blockquote>Terrorize? ROFL!!! Hello, there is <b>nothing</b> to lose if you get killed as a grey unless you engage. No fame, no coin, no nothing.... not even XP debt. I had something like 5-30% debt all the time when I leveled up in SS, now that is a non-issue on PvP servers. If greys actually lost their fame, coin etc - then I would have agreed with you. It would suck to be the grey gank and lose things you've worked hard for, but this is not at all the case in this game. I'm so tired of those little locked greys, standing there in immunity at the docks, spires... wherever you go. Why do you think they all lock at 59, eh? Well it is rather obvious, isn't it? Because it is <u>much</u> easier to hide in immunity while waiting for the right oppertunity, than it is to level up and become fair targets. This way, they can easily get enough tokens to buy several pieces of level 70 PvP gear before they even reach their 60s. I call <i>that</i> lame.

[Mildavyn]

<cite>Amphibia wrote:</cite><blockquote>I'm so tired of those little locked greys, standing there in immunity at the docks, spires... wherever you go. Why do you think they all lock at 59, eh? Well it is rather obvious, isn't it? Because it is <u>much</u> easier to hide in immunity while waiting for the right oppertunity, than it is to level up and become fair targets. This way, they can easily get enough tokens to buy several pieces of level 70 PvP gear before they even reach their 60s. I call <i>that</i> lame. </blockquote> <span style="font-size: large">Q</span> to the <span style="font-size: large">F</span> to the mother &*^%ing <span style="font-size: large">E</span>!

[Borias]

Ohnoez@Nagafen wrote: <blockquote>Just wait till RoK comes out, all the T7 zones are unlimited.  Once ya get to 80, the 60+ are fair game. <img src="/smilies/908627bbe5e9f6a080977db8c365caff.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></blockquote><p> Sadly they probably will change them to 10 level zones.  </p><p>Seriously though, I kind of understand SS being 10 levels back when that was the only T6 around.  Now there is more.  There will be even more in RoK.  Make SS unlimited.  It is the easiest access zone for both qeynos and freeport to get to.  Lots of flat ground to fight on.  Why is it that bad to have the easiest to get to zone be open pvp?</p><p>For T6 up there are so many zones other than SS.  My gawds.  Explore just a smidge people.  Head into Silent City maybe.  Shimmering Citadel?  Nope though, only in SS!@#(^@#</p><p>Give the top tier people the easiest one to find pvp in.</p>

[Mildavyn]

There's alot of content on those docks Borias. Thats why we see all those groups of level 58-59 toons. They're there questing! Must be new ones though, cos i dont remember all that many quests on the docks when i did it...

[ailen]

well none of them seem to know how to turn the quests in, because i assure you I could accidentally trip over 59 to 60 in a few days, much less a MONTH.

[Norrsken]

Paikis@Venekor wrote: <blockquote>There's alot of content on those docks Borias. Thats why we see all those groups of level 58-59 toons. They're there questing! Must be new ones though, cos i dont remember all that many quests on the docks when i did it...</blockquote>A few of them are questing, but I assure you, most of them are there to pvp safelyu from 70ies. And most of them would STILL BE THERE to pvp if the 70ies moved to another zone.