Brawler loven plz [Archive] - EQ2 Forum Archive @ EQ2Wire

belwulf

06-30-2007, 09:52 PM

[face="Arial"]For the creators of the game i dont understand what class set the brawler is fitting under, DPS or tank. We are in the tank subclass, but are expected to be dps even though we are leather armored. I started a monk again because in eq1 they where pure DPS. Now in EQ2 the monks can hardly make it past 1100- 1700dps parsed. If the monk is a dps class then why cant they have the same free hand pick as all the other classes. If the STR line is put into effect in GU37, the brawlers can start dpsing and stop having to tank to be useful in groups and raids. Exuse my punctuation and spelling was in a hurry... From, Bewulf the grumpy

belwulf

06-30-2007, 09:58 PM

ya i agree with belwulf that handsome devil <img src="/smilies/e8a506dc4ad763aca51bec4ca7dc8560.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Cocytus

07-01-2007, 01:08 AM

Apparently not one of the top geared, as there is a monk on my server that pulls off 2200+ regularly <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Timaarit

07-01-2007, 04:47 AM

<cite>Cocytus wrote:</cite><blockquote>Apparently not one of the top geared, as there is a monk on my server that pulls off 2200+ regularly <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></blockquote>Well, I am fairly certain that a zerk in same group with equal equipment would do at least that DPS. And a rogue would have done 3k + previously and now 'only 2,8k'. Even I know for a fact that I can do 2,2k DPS zonewide if pulls are done with 3 min interval and last for 16s tops.

Junaru

07-01-2007, 01:40 PM

<cite>Cocytus wrote:</cite><blockquote>Apparently not one of the top geared, as there is a monk on my server that pulls off 2200+ regularly <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></blockquote>And on top of what Timaarit said that is the exception to the rule. Your average Monk wont do that regardless if he's a good player or not. And 2.2k in zones like labs when you are decked out in EoF fabled isn't unheard of. Just not a good measure of a toon.

belwulf

07-01-2007, 05:52 PM

maybe you guys misunderstood what this for... The Brawler subclass didnt get the same advancements as the other classes got in GU37 it was back off at the last min. The update the brawlers got was missing a hugh chunk of the dps that the other classes aquired in the last patch.This thread is not taking about personal stats and advancements you can go toot your own horn to some one who cares like your mommys. This is to bring attention to how GU37 STR:"Strength 3 - Relentless Punches: Renamed to Eye of the Tiger: No longer requires unarmed. Increases all combat art damage by 0.75% per rank." NEVER HAPPENEDwhy?

Timaarit

07-01-2007, 06:06 PM

0,75% per rank is about 6,75% too little per rank. Personally I am glad the devs removed it so that they dont get the false feeling that they gave brawlers some good improvement.

Gasheron

07-01-2007, 06:30 PM

<cite>belwulf wrote:</cite><blockquote>maybe you guys misunderstood what this for... The Brawler subclass didnt get the same advancements as the other classes got in GU37 it was back off at the last min. The update the brawlers got was missing a hugh chunk of the dps that the other classes aquired in the last patch.This thread is not taking about personal stats and advancements you can go toot your own horn to some one who cares like your mommys. This is to bring attention to how GU37 STR:"Strength 3 - Relentless Punches: Renamed to Eye of the Tiger: No longer requires unarmed. Increases all combat art damage by 0.75% per rank." NEVER HAPPENEDwhy?</blockquote> Because this change was NOT an increase, it was an insult.almost any brawler will tell u that a good portion of our DPS comes from autoattack, much moreso for monks than for bruisers. 0.75% increase per rank tops off at 6%. Take a CA that deals 1000 damage, which most monk (i dunno bout bruisers since I don't play as one) skills DON'T do even when mastered, and add 6% to it. What do you get? 1060 damage. Another 60 damage. Honestly, how much dps can something that does less than or equal to 60 damage more per CA for a class where a large portion of damage comes from autoattack truly add?Granted, this would have increased our dps, but by such a small amount that it would be the same as if nothing happened at all. I'd prefer the current strength line any day over their proposed changes, if for nothing else than the fact that I didn't feel insulted by the devs.

Cocytus

07-01-2007, 07:57 PM

I was just commenting that he doesn't hjave all the top gear, judging frmo his DPS.The thing is, monks are heavily gear dependent in regards to DPS, which is why it's so hard to tweak them without overpowering them.

Nerill

07-01-2007, 08:02 PM

<cite>Gasheron wrote:</cite><blockquote>Because this change was NOT an increase, it was an insult.Granted, this would have increased our dps, but by such a small amount that it would be the same as if nothing happened at all. I'd prefer the current strength line any day over their proposed changes, if for nothing else than the fact that I didn't feel insulted by the devs.</blockquote>What he said.

liveja

07-01-2007, 09:11 PM

<cite>Timaarit wrote:</cite><blockquote>And a rogue would have done 3k + previously and now 'only 2,8k'. </blockquote>If the Rogue has the uber weapons, & all M1 CAs, & is in the proper group with the proper buffs.I have the M1s, but not the weapons, & almost never the group. I've never come even close to 3k+. Just as Leithe was talking about the UBER Brawler & comparing them to ALL Brawlers, that's what you're doing with Rogues. I'm not trying to say Brawlers don't need help. I'm trying to say that exaggerating what other classes can do isn't the best way to argue for the help you need.

mr23sgte

07-02-2007, 12:20 PM

I was really hoping for the mit AA to stay in, but with a % mit increase /rank -- and to see the DOUBLE attack changed to no weapon requirement - just with a lesser %

Cornbread Muffin

07-02-2007, 01:24 PM

<cite>livejazz wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Timaarit wrote:</cite><blockquote>And a rogue would have done 3k + previously and now 'only 2,8k'. </blockquote>If the Rogue has the uber weapons, & all M1 CAs, & is in the proper group with the proper buffs.I have the M1s, but not the weapons, & almost never the group. I've never come even close to 3k+. Just as Leithe was talking about the UBER Brawler & comparing them to ALL Brawlers, that's what you're doing with Rogues. I'm not trying to say Brawlers don't need help. I'm trying to say that exaggerating what other classes can do isn't the best way to argue for the help you need.</blockquote>What he was saying is that if your well-geared brawler is doing 2.2 then an equally well geared rogue would be doing the 2.8/3k.

Novusod

07-03-2007, 03:34 PM

The biggest problem with brawlers is that they offer no utility to raids so the debates over what to do with brawlers always focuses on their dps which is not the solution. For dps to be a solution they would have to out parse rangers and wizards and not just rogues because rogues have utility in addition to their high dps. The solution is give them near bard like utility or at the very least give them group (AE) versions of some of their defining abilities such the Bruiser's stone deaf or the Monk's Tsunami.

Couching

07-03-2007, 03:51 PM

The most welcome classes in raid are bard and enchanter. The reason is trivial. They have power regeneration. In high end encounter, almost every named has aoe power drain. It's almost impossible to win without a bard or enchanter in every group to offer power regeneration. Also, bard and enchanter are important for hate gain. That's why any guild can use 3 or even 4 bard in a raid not to say 2 or 3 enchanters at same time in high end encounters. Though, the raid slots are limited to 24. When you need more bards/enchanters in raid, who will be sit outside raid? Of course, brawler is the winner. To fix it, give brawler some kind of group power regeneration will convince raid leader to invite brawler even brawler is worst tank with sub-par dps.

PaganSaint

07-03-2007, 04:16 PM

Well, power regen, and the best DPS increasing buffs in the game. Don't forget those.

Novusod

07-03-2007, 04:21 PM

Couching@Crushbone wrote: <blockquote>The most welcome classes in raid are bard and enchanter. The reason is trivial. They have power regeneration. In high end encounter, almost every named has aoe power drain. It's almost impossible to win without a bard or enchanter in every group to offer power regeneration. Also, bard and enchanter are important for hate gain. That's why any guild can use 3 or even 4 bard in a raid not to say 2 or 3 enchanters at same time in high end encounters. Though, the raid slots are limited to 24. When you need more bards/enchanters in raid, who will be sit outside raid? Of course, brawler is the winner. To fix it, give brawler some kind of group power regeneration will convince raid leader to invite brawler even brawler is worst tank with sub-par dps. </blockquote>I could definately see power regen being added to the monk's wisdom buff. Bruiser would be better suited for (AE) avoiding the power drains.

Lai

07-04-2007, 01:09 AM

OMG... JUST REMOVE THE B.S. UNARMED REQUIREMENT FROM THE STR LINE!!!! Hell every other class had its weapon restrictions removed, why were we hosed?!

PaganSaint

07-04-2007, 02:56 AM

No, all classes had the teir two ability weapon requirements removed, except for ranged and shield requirements. Many teir 3 and up abilities require specific equipment choices still. Also why is this thread still going, they nuked a few other similar threads when this whole new LU and its changes became an issue.

Novusod

07-04-2007, 03:18 AM

That is because this thread is not really about LU36 but the ongoing issue of broken and useless bruisers.

Nerill

07-04-2007, 03:23 AM

Honestly, it would be best if we just keep all ideas in the thread: "Brawler AA Changes" <a href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?topic_id=366834" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/...topic_id=366834</a> Pagan, are you allowed to change the title of the thread simply to "Brawler Changes" ?

PaganSaint

07-04-2007, 03:44 AM

HAHA Yeah, changed name to: All Encompassing Brawler Changes.

Wildfury77

07-04-2007, 06:43 AM

My thoughts a)We are not broken b)We suffer on raids/lag behind the other tank classes a little.It would be ridiculous to remove no-weapon requirements from strength line without MASSIVELY nerfing it. That would make us into a tier 1 DPS class! We are an offensive tank, not an assassin!!My suggestions1) Add a group avoidance buff - to our +attack speed buff. Every other fighter class gets more than one group buff. We are the masters of NOT getting hit. This would aid us as MT/OT and also aid the MT if we weren't in that role (if in his/her group)2) Decrease AoE taunt timer - We suffer in terms of AoE agro control. We have an AA choice that improves its strength.....i think its timer should be reduced. Thats hardly game breaking and it would aid us immensely with MTing!3) Increase our solitary CA debuff.......its very lame. We only have one, why can't it at least be moderate to good rather than rubbish?Three small changes that would aid us a)Tank (increased avoidance, decreased AoE taunt timer) b)Utility - decent debuff and group avoidance buff!I think the Devs are unlikely to make monks overpowered by making us DPS machines. A little love in the utility/tanking/agro control department would make us flourish again <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> p.s. this a monks perspective but it could be modified for a bruiser e.g. give them +group mitigation buff to add to +dps.

Timaarit

07-04-2007, 07:00 AM

<cite>Wildfury77 wrote:</cite><blockquote>My thoughts a)We are not broken b)We suffer on raids/lag behind the other tank classes a little.It would be ridiculous to remove no-weapon requirements from strength line without MASSIVELY nerfing it. That would make us into a tier 1 DPS class! We are an offensive tank, not an assassin!!My suggestions1) Add a group avoidance buff - to our +attack speed buff. Every other fighter class gets more than one group buff. We are the masters of NOT getting hit. This would aid us as MT/OT and also aid the MT if we weren't in that role (if in his/her group)2) Decrease AoE taunt timer - We suffer in terms of AoE agro control. We have an AA choice that improves its strength.....i think its timer should be reduced. Thats hardly game breaking and it would aid us immensely with MTing!3) Increase our solitary CA debuff.......its very lame. We only have one, why can't it at least be moderate to good rather than rubbish?Three small changes that would aid us a)Tank (increased avoidance, decreased AoE taunt timer) b)Utility - decent debuff and group avoidance buff!I think the Devs are unlikely to make monks overpowered by making us DPS machines. A little love in the utility/tanking/agro control department would make us flourish again <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> p.s. this a monks perspective but it could be modified for a bruiser e.g. give them +group mitigation buff to add to +dps.</blockquote>From raiding perspective, and that is what this is all about, monks are broken. Removal of the no-weapon requirement would not have to mean nerfing the STR line, they could easily make it 4% while wielding a weapon and 12% while unarmed. Also there would be nothing wrong in making brawlers into t1 DPS class, exept the famous phrase 'butbutbut brawlers are fighters, they cant be t1 dps!'. So like I said, there is no reason not to let brawlers be t1 dps, after all slightly better tanks (though not a fighter type) with much greater utility are t1 dps. I dont see anything overpowering in making monks DPS machines on raids. I have already suggested a method on doing that. Simply by transforming our self haste from the stances and the selfbuff into form of double attack instead. This would not increase our solo DPS at all but would give us some additional DPS from group haste buffs since we wouldnt already be standing at the cap when soloing.

Novusod

07-04-2007, 05:14 PM

<cite>Wildfury77 wrote:</cite><blockquote>My thoughts a)We are not broken b)We suffer on raids/lag behind the other tank classes a little.It would be ridiculous to remove no-weapon requirements from strength line without MASSIVELY nerfing it. That would make us into a tier 1 DPS class! We are an offensive tank, not an assassin!!My suggestions1) Add a group avoidance buff - to our +attack speed buff. Every other fighter class gets more than one group buff. We are the masters of NOT getting hit. This would aid us as MT/OT and also aid the MT if we weren't in that role (if in his/her group)2) Decrease AoE taunt timer - We suffer in terms of AoE agro control. We have an AA choice that improves its strength.....i think its timer should be reduced. Thats hardly game breaking and it would aid us immensely with MTing!3) Increase our solitary CA debuff.......its very lame. We only have one, why can't it at least be moderate to good rather than rubbish?Three small changes that would aid us a)Tank (increased avoidance, decreased AoE taunt timer) b)Utility - decent debuff and group avoidance buff!I think the Devs are unlikely to make monks overpowered by making us DPS machines. A little love in the utility/tanking/agro control department would make us flourish again <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> p.s. this a monks perspective but it could be modified for a bruiser e.g. give them +group mitigation buff to add to +dps.</blockquote>Actually brawlers are broken. It is this little of everything suggestions that have gone into brawler development that has broken the class. Good raiders are min/max'ers meaning they only take the best tanks, the best dps, and best utility classes. A class that brings a little of everything to a raid is not min/max'ing so the class it not wanted. For a brawler to be used on raids they have to be either: the best tank, the best dps, or the best utility. The brawler has to specialize in one of those roles so they can min/max in serious raids. Best tank will never happen because it would obsolete the other tank classes. Best dps will never happen because that would overpower brawlers at solo'ing. That leaves making brawlers a T1 utility class the only option. That means giving brawlers power regens, group (AE) tsunami, and the like.

Wildfury77

07-04-2007, 07:50 PM

<cite>Novusod wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Wildfury77 wrote:</cite><blockquote>My thoughts a)We are not broken b)We suffer on raids/lag behind the other tank classes a little.It would be ridiculous to remove no-weapon requirements from strength line without MASSIVELY nerfing it. That would make us into a tier 1 DPS class! We are an offensive tank, not an assassin!!My suggestions1) Add a group avoidance buff - to our +attack speed buff. Every other fighter class gets more than one group buff. We are the masters of NOT getting hit. This would aid us as MT/OT and also aid the MT if we weren't in that role (if in his/her group)2) Decrease AoE taunt timer - We suffer in terms of AoE agro control. We have an AA choice that improves its strength.....i think its timer should be reduced. Thats hardly game breaking and it would aid us immensely with MTing!3) Increase our solitary CA debuff.......its very lame. We only have one, why can't it at least be moderate to good rather than rubbish?Three small changes that would aid us a)Tank (increased avoidance, decreased AoE taunt timer) b)Utility - decent debuff and group avoidance buff!I think the Devs are unlikely to make monks overpowered by making us DPS machines. A little love in the utility/tanking/agro control department would make us flourish again <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> p.s. this a monks perspective but it could be modified for a bruiser e.g. give them +group mitigation buff to add to +dps.</blockquote>Actually brawlers are broken. It is this little of everything suggestions that have gone into brawler development that has broken the class. Good raiders are min/max'ers meaning they only take the best tanks, the best dps, and best utility classes. A class that brings a little of everything to a raid is not min/max'ing so the class it not wanted. For a brawler to be used on raids they have to be either: the best tank, the best dps, or the best utility. The brawler has to specialize in one of those roles so they can min/max in serious raids. Best tank will never happen because it would obsolete the other tank classes. Best dps will never happen because that would overpower brawlers at solo'ing. That leaves making brawlers a T1 utility class the only option. That means giving brawlers power regens, group (AE) tsunami, and the like. </blockquote>Err...no we are not. Don't generalise or we will not get ANY fixes. The Devs are not stupid they know we are a)Very good solo b)Can be very good group MT (despite what some whiners say) c)Can OT well. We lack in 2 areas - that doesn't = broken!! I agree with you that we need some improvements though.Area 1) Tanking - Improve AoE agro holding, improve avoidance (read mitigation for brawlers) is my suggestion.Area 2) Utility - Make the avoidance buff groupwide. Move the AA ability that lets us transfer hate to become a standard part of the CA. These 2 changes would lets us assist an MT very well...intercept, hate transfer, heal and avoidance. Also with greater agro control and boosted avoidance we would be a better as OT/MA. Utility part 2 - make the one debuff monks better than rubbish...improving one debuff thats not much to ask.....You may not agree with my suggestions - thats fine but please rather than stating "brawlers are broken" explain the areas that need improved. Exaggerating our failings will not impress any passing Dev/Game Designer. Other suggestions welcome <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Wildfury77

07-04-2007, 07:52 PM

Gulp just read the bit beneath your signiture......"bruisers aren't tanks" err.....i disagree. Think you read the class description wrong when you picked it <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Couching

07-04-2007, 08:49 PM

<cite>Wildfury77 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Novusod wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Wildfury77 wrote:</cite><blockquote>My thoughts a)We are not broken b)We suffer on raids/lag behind the other tank classes a little.It would be ridiculous to remove no-weapon requirements from strength line without MASSIVELY nerfing it. That would make us into a tier 1 DPS class! We are an offensive tank, not an assassin!!My suggestions1) Add a group avoidance buff - to our +attack speed buff. Every other fighter class gets more than one group buff. We are the masters of NOT getting hit. This would aid us as MT/OT and also aid the MT if we weren't in that role (if in his/her group)2) Decrease AoE taunt timer - We suffer in terms of AoE agro control. We have an AA choice that improves its strength.....i think its timer should be reduced. Thats hardly game breaking and it would aid us immensely with MTing!3) Increase our solitary CA debuff.......its very lame. We only have one, why can't it at least be moderate to good rather than rubbish?Three small changes that would aid us a)Tank (increased avoidance, decreased AoE taunt timer) b)Utility - decent debuff and group avoidance buff!I think the Devs are unlikely to make monks overpowered by making us DPS machines. A little love in the utility/tanking/agro control department would make us flourish again <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> p.s. this a monks perspective but it could be modified for a bruiser e.g. give them +group mitigation buff to add to +dps.</blockquote>Actually brawlers are broken. It is this little of everything suggestions that have gone into brawler development that has broken the class. Good raiders are min/max'ers meaning they only take the best tanks, the best dps, and best utility classes. A class that brings a little of everything to a raid is not min/max'ing so the class it not wanted. For a brawler to be used on raids they have to be either: the best tank, the best dps, or the best utility. The brawler has to specialize in one of those roles so they can min/max in serious raids. Best tank will never happen because it would obsolete the other tank classes. Best dps will never happen because that would overpower brawlers at solo'ing. That leaves making brawlers a T1 utility class the only option. That means giving brawlers power regens, group (AE) tsunami, and the like. </blockquote>Err...no we are not. Don't generalise or we will not get ANY fixes. The Devs are not stupid they know we are a)Very good solo b)Can be very good group MT (despite what some whiners say) c)Can OT well. We lack in 2 areas - that doesn't = broken!! I agree with you that we need some improvements though.Area 1) Tanking - Improve AoE agro holding, improve avoidance (read mitigation for brawlers) is my suggestion.Area 2) Utility - Make the avoidance buff groupwide. Move the AA ability that lets us transfer hate to become a standard part of the CA. These 2 changes would lets us assist an MT very well...intercept, hate transfer, heal and avoidance. Also with greater agro control and boosted avoidance we would be a better as OT/MA. Utility part 2 - make the one debuff monks better than rubbish...improving one debuff thats not much to ask.....You may not agree with my suggestions - thats fine but please rather than stating "brawlers are broken" explain the areas that need improved. Exaggerating our failings will not impress any passing Dev/Game Designer. Other suggestions welcome <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> </blockquote>Based on your post, I can assume that you are in a casual raid guild or not even be lv70. Basically, brawler is fine in heroic or entry level raids since there is nothing to off tank in raid. . Do you need off tank in Lab? NO. Do you need off tank in HoS? No. Do you need off tank in Lyceum? No. So it's silly to claim that brawler is ok to be off tank in raid. In fact, brawler has big problem to be off tank in high end raids since we have only 1 encounter taunt for every 20 sec. When dpsers in your guild can hit 3k per sec, brawler can't hold multiple adds off them since we don't have enough aoe damage and enough aggro control tools. For utility, Group avoidance is useless in most cases. 2% more avoidance on everyone in group didn't mean anything. For hate transfer, we have it already. However, it's a joke at the moment. 5% hate transfer to fighter or 9% hate transfer from non-fighter classes. For example, Assassin has 28% or 29% and swashy have 26% hate transfer buff. 5% hate transfer is really a joke especially brawler has less hate generated than rogue. If Devs can revised our hate transfer to 20% hate transfer to fighter and 30% hate transfer from non-fighter classes, it's still worse than rogue hate transfer and Pal amend (40%). But at least, it means something.

Novusod

07-04-2007, 08:53 PM

<cite>Wildfury77 wrote:</cite><blockquote>Gulp just read the bit beneath your signiture......"bruisers aren't tanks" err.....i disagree. Think you read the class description wrong when you picked it <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></blockquote>Well that bit beneath my signature is kind of a joke. Troubador's are a high dps class right after all they are scouts and scout=dps. You should see my uber DPS'ing troubador. Fighter=Tank right so no problem there. I guess you have play both classes to 70 to get the joke.

Couching

07-04-2007, 09:01 PM

<cite>Wildfury77 wrote:</cite><blockquote>Gulp just read the bit beneath your signiture......"bruisers aren't tanks" err.....i disagree. Think you read the class description wrong when you picked it <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></blockquote>Who can't tank in this game? The more important is who can tank better! Stop arguing that brawler can tank or not. It's not the point. The point is people will ask someone who can tank better to tank in raid.

Couching

07-04-2007, 09:01 PM

EDIT: double post.

Kaoru

07-04-2007, 09:47 PM

<cite>Wildfury77 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Novusod wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Wildfury77 wrote:</cite><blockquote>My thoughts a)We are not broken b)We suffer on raids/lag behind the other tank classes a little.It would be ridiculous to remove no-weapon requirements from strength line without MASSIVELY nerfing it. That would make us into a tier 1 DPS class! We are an offensive tank, not an assassin!!My suggestions1) Add a group avoidance buff - to our +attack speed buff. Every other fighter class gets more than one group buff. We are the masters of NOT getting hit. This would aid us as MT/OT and also aid the MT if we weren't in that role (if in his/her group)2) Decrease AoE taunt timer - We suffer in terms of AoE agro control. We have an AA choice that improves its strength.....i think its timer should be reduced. Thats hardly game breaking and it would aid us immensely with MTing!3) Increase our solitary CA debuff.......its very lame. We only have one, why can't it at least be moderate to good rather than rubbish?Three small changes that would aid us a)Tank (increased avoidance, decreased AoE taunt timer) b)Utility - decent debuff and group avoidance buff!I think the Devs are unlikely to make monks overpowered by making us DPS machines. A little love in the utility/tanking/agro control department would make us flourish again <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> p.s. this a monks perspective but it could be modified for a bruiser e.g. give them +group mitigation buff to add to +dps.</blockquote>Actually brawlers are broken. It is this little of everything suggestions that have gone into brawler development that has broken the class. Good raiders are min/max'ers meaning they only take the best tanks, the best dps, and best utility classes. A class that brings a little of everything to a raid is not min/max'ing so the class it not wanted. For a brawler to be used on raids they have to be either: the best tank, the best dps, or the best utility. The brawler has to specialize in one of those roles so they can min/max in serious raids. Best tank will never happen because it would obsolete the other tank classes. Best dps will never happen because that would overpower brawlers at solo'ing. That leaves making brawlers a T1 utility class the only option. That means giving brawlers power regens, group (AE) tsunami, and the like. </blockquote>Err...no we are not. Don't generalise or we will not get ANY fixes. The Devs are not stupid they know we are a)Very good solo b)Can be very good group MT (despite what some whiners say) c)Can OT well. We lack in 2 areas - that doesn't = broken!! I agree with you that we need some improvements though.Area 1) Tanking - Improve AoE agro holding, improve avoidance (read mitigation for brawlers) is my suggestion.Area 2) Utility - Make the avoidance buff groupwide. Move the AA ability that lets us transfer hate to become a standard part of the CA. These 2 changes would lets us assist an MT very well...intercept, hate transfer, heal and avoidance. Also with greater agro control and boosted avoidance we would be a better as OT/MA. Utility part 2 - make the one debuff monks better than rubbish...improving one debuff thats not much to ask.....You may not agree with my suggestions - thats fine but please rather than stating "brawlers are broken" explain the areas that need improved. Exaggerating our failings will not impress any passing Dev/Game Designer. Other suggestions welcome <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> </blockquote> Wildfury, considering your brawler is what lvl 33 or so (as you put in another thread), I do not believe you have a full understanding of what a lvl 70 monk raiding EOF content is going through atm. This is where the majority of our problems come to light. I do not believe anyone is disagreeing with the changes you put forth, unfortunately to be viable in the end game content we need much more then what you have posted.

Jobeson

07-05-2007, 12:30 AM

This post will probably end up longer than intended but... Brawler: Why do rogues have a tank spec and brawlers do not? The purposed STR KoS change was in the right direction for having a real tank spec. Changes that would be cool for a tank line: #1 Instead of having a mit debuff for the mob why not decrease its crush/pierce/slash / dps / haste? (not all take your pick) This would add in some utility and also extra single target "avoidance" in the tank line. #2 The idea for CA damage increase is in the right direction for tanking but the 6% purposed is not enough to be on par with any of the other AA lines. If our CAs are not meant to hit beyond 1200 damage then how about giving the 6% damage and bonus to accuracy as well (for CAs) Having this increase effect taunts as well would be good. #3 The added mitigation is a great idea. For those who whine about brawlers not being mit tanks let me put your mind at ease... Using our agility we position ourself to take the least amount of damage from the enemies blow, protecting our vital organs. People claim we are avoidance tanks but avoidance is useless when we are able to be 2 shotted within 2 seconds. We may have 25% more avoidance than a warrior but the fact still remains a brawler has half the mitigation and is two shotted more often than a plate tank who not only must take 4 hits but those extra two hits allow for more time to heal. With avoidance being what it is for raid mobs it either must be turned static for part of the brawler skill (IE deflect would not scale with level so even on a raid mob we would have a static thirty some odd percent avoidance) Every fighter has two group buffs brawlers only have haste/dps mod. Why can't we cast our self str + agi/wis buff on other players to use up our open concentration slots? This would not make brawlers uber but it would give utility. Monk: Why do monks need so much haste? We are drowning in haste and it ends up hindering us more than it helps us. Bruisers get procs that are only improved with the groups. You give a bruiser a dirge or templar and their dps goes up, you give them haste or dps mod and their dps goes up. You give a monk haste and their dps goes down. Having any group haste is a hindrance, it simply makes the majority of brawler weapons (1.6 delay) swing too fast to be able to get a CA off in between which greatly lowers our dps. Monks can have 3 hastes up at this time. Why not make one of the self hastes double attack? both even. This would improve monk ability to dps on par with bruisers simply for not fighting diminishing returns, which bruisers do not have to fight at all.

Nerill

07-05-2007, 02:39 AM

Last I read Wildfure was a lv 33 Monk. So, his opinions are sort of based on his experience at the mid levels. I'm not quite sure that he realizes how far behind the Brawler classes are at the high end part of the game. It's not that his ideas are bad .... but like Eowyna1979 said, we need quite a bit more help than what he posted.

Wildfury77

07-05-2007, 04:06 AM

Banzai@Unrest wrote: <blockquote>Last I read Wildfure was a lv 33 Monk. So, his opinions are sort of based on his experience at the mid levels. I'm not quite sure that he realizes how far behind the Brawler classes are at the high end part of the game. It's not that his ideas are bad .... but like Eowyna1979 said, we need quite a bit more help than what he posted. </blockquote> True, i have a very well-specced mid-tier monk (lvl 33/ 49 active AA (54 total)) and also have 70 tank-specced swashie that has played with very able Monk MTs ----> I'm sorry that you feel that only lvl 70 monks have a right to suggest changes <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />IMHO my suggestions would be a good start - Rome wasn't built in a day, we will never get everything we want!"Baby Steps" supported with good reason will get the Devs attention more than teenage hysterics.

Novusod

07-05-2007, 04:31 AM

I suspect wildfire has leveled up some since then. There is a 42 monk on the bazzar server named wildfire that I beleive belongs to the poster. Still a 42 monk is nothing compaired to the challanges a raiding 70 brawler has to face. DFC is the only challenging zone in that level range and I don't think he has been in there yet. It is a zone like that where the gulf between plate tanks and brawlers begins. A plate tank could tank DFC easy at 42 while a brawler of the same level would have a much harder time. By the time you hit 70 and are looking at x4 raid mobs you are not going to feel like a tank anymore instead you will seem like a squishy little nothing. And then when you can't even get into a real raiding guild because you can't dps and have no utility then you will jump on the "Brawlers are Broken" bandwagon like everyone else.

Timaarit

07-05-2007, 04:53 AM

<cite>Wildfury77 wrote:</cite><blockquote>Banzai@Unrest wrote: <blockquote>Last I read Wildfure was a lv 33 Monk. So, his opinions are sort of based on his experience at the mid levels. I'm not quite sure that he realizes how far behind the Brawler classes are at the high end part of the game. It's not that his ideas are bad .... but like Eowyna1979 said, we need quite a bit more help than what he posted. </blockquote> True, i have a very well-specced mid-tier monk (lvl 33/ 49 active AA (54 total)) and also have 70 tank-specced swashie that has played with very able Monk MTs ----> I'm sorry that you feel that only lvl 70 monks have a right to suggest changes <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />IMHO my suggestions would be a good start - Rome wasn't built in a day, we will never get everything we want!"Baby Steps" supported with good reason will get the Devs attention more than teenage hysterics.</blockquote>The difference as I see it is that we, the lvl 70 monks that is, are talking about monks from raiders perspective. We have already done the soloing/heroic content and personally I didn't see much problems. Exept that with mastercrafted gear, monks often need 2 healers while plate tanks can do the same content with 1. So when we say 'monks are broken', we mean that 'monks in our position are broken'. Solo content for a monk is pretty easy (dont know a class that it wouldn't be easy for), the heroic content is ok although the problems do start to be visible there but they dont matter since if the monk doesn't fir one group, there will always be another. But the real problems start with raiding. Thus while it is ok for you to suggest changes, it is very likely that the majority of the monk community dont see them either as good enough or adequate. But they are what you feel should be fixed. Lvl 70 monks however have totally different concerns. For example more aggro via taunts doesn't mean anything for a raiding monk unless monks damage taking capability is also increase to match a warrior. More utility is meaningless unless it is truly unique and useful since if they just copy it from another class, then that another class is still more useful by bringing either even more utility than the copied one or more DPS compared to a monk. So the class really needs much bigger changes than you have proposed so far. But you do have good ideas, they just aren't good enough to make any real changes to monks desirability in the end content.

Junaru

07-05-2007, 10:38 AM

If a tank class can't tank, then they are broken. Nothing else need be said.

Junaru

07-05-2007, 11:35 AM

<cite>Wildfury77 wrote:</cite><blockquote>My thoughts a)We are not broken b)We suffer on raids/lag behind the other tank classes a little.It would be ridiculous to remove no-weapon requirements from strength line without MASSIVELY nerfing it. That would make us into a tier 1 DPS class! We are an offensive tank, not an assassin!!My suggestions1) Add a group avoidance buff - to our +attack speed buff. Every other fighter class gets more than one group buff. We are the masters of NOT getting hit. This would aid us as MT/OT and also aid the MT if we weren't in that role (if in his/her group)2) Decrease AoE taunt timer - We suffer in terms of AoE agro control. We have an AA choice that improves its strength.....i think its timer should be reduced. Thats hardly game breaking and it would aid us immensely with MTing!3) Increase our solitary CA debuff.......its very lame. We only have one, why can't it at least be moderate to good rather than rubbish?Three small changes that would aid us a)Tank (increased avoidance, decreased AoE taunt timer) b)Utility - decent debuff and group avoidance buff!I think the Devs are unlikely to make monks overpowered by making us DPS machines. A little love in the utility/tanking/agro control department would make us flourish again <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> p.s. this a monks perspective but it could be modified for a bruiser e.g. give them +group mitigation buff to add to +dps.</blockquote>Why is it low level toons think they know what a high level raiding Brawler needs? You have no clue what a Brawler does in an EoF raid so why comment about it? When I was in my 20's my Monk was a God. I was kicking the snot out of Heroic mobs 3 levels above me. If you asked me back then what I thought about high level raiding I would have told you Monks were Gods and we didn't need fixing. (BTW for the older Brawlers this was when deflection was showing too 134 when you were L20. AKA bug. Ahhh those were fun times.) Wildfury77 wrote: <blockquote>I'm a PvP monk Lvl 33, 54 AA</blockquote>

Kaoru

07-05-2007, 12:58 PM

<cite>Wildfury77 wrote:</cite><blockquote>Banzai@Unrest wrote: <blockquote>Last I read Wildfure was a lv 33 Monk. So, his opinions are sort of based on his experience at the mid levels. I'm not quite sure that he realizes how far behind the Brawler classes are at the high end part of the game. It's not that his ideas are bad .... but like Eowyna1979 said, we need quite a bit more help than what he posted. </blockquote> True, i have a very well-specced mid-tier monk (lvl 33/ 49 active AA (54 total)) and also have 70 tank-specced swashie that has played with very able Monk MTs ----> I'm sorry that you feel that only lvl 70 monks have a right to suggest changes <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />IMHO my suggestions would be a good start - Rome wasn't built in a day, we will never get everything we want!"Baby Steps" supported with good reason will get the Devs attention more than teenage hysterics.</blockquote>While I am sure your ideas will help out in the group/solo situations you encounter daily, baby steps wont help and frankly just wont cut it at level 70. The reason why? To be wanted/needed on a raid your class has to do something better then other classes, or at least better then most. Right now the only thing we have in that category is fd, and that is not something that is going to help us in this situation. This is why we have to ask for more then what you are putting forth, although the majority of suggestions most people are posting are very reasonable. It is true we will never get everything we want, even so it never hurts to ask. On another note, you are on pvp, which is actually different then the other servers as SOE tends to screw over pve balance to try and make things fair on pvp. It is a shame they can't seem to get a handle on this. Watching a raiding monk is one thing, being in their shoes in is quite another. What you are failing to do is see the bigger picture, and unfortunately this is going to be difficult at your current level.

Nerill

07-06-2007, 03:20 AM

<cite>Wildfury77 wrote:</cite><blockquote>True, i have a very well-specced mid-tier monk (lvl 33/ 49 active AA (54 total)) and also have 70 tank-specced swashie that has played with very able Monk MTs ----> I'm sorry that you feel that only lvl 70 monks have a right to suggest changes <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> IMHO my suggestions would be a good start - Rome wasn't built in a day, we will never get everything we want!"Baby Steps" supported with good reason will get the Devs attention more than teenage hysterics.</blockquote>Wildfury, I'm not sure how you interpreted my post to say that "only lv 70 Monks have a right to post suggestions".I think my post was pretty straight forward saying that from your perspective at your level you are sort of missing why most of us know that our class is in very poor shape when it comes to high end raiding. So, your opinions are going to be based on your view at the middle levels.If you read my post, I said that your ideas are not bad but as many lv 70 EoF raiding Monks are saying .... we need ALOT of help in ALOT of areas to bring our class in-line with others.So, by all means, post ideas on what we need to "fix" our class, no matter what level you are. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> However, do not mock high level raiding Monks who know first hand how badly we need several fixes by calling us "doomsayers" or "whiners" if you have not walked a mile in our shoes. ( I am not directing that last sentence at you, Wildfury, I am just making a general statement to some [particularly one poster] because many of us have been called such and had threads derailed ) <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> That kind of stuff in quite counterproductive. <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

PaganSaint

07-06-2007, 03:38 AM

Brawlers are absolutely fine through the early to middle levels. Its at the top end that they become lackluster. Where brawlers need the most vast improvement.

Wildfury77

07-06-2007, 11:14 AM

Ok i accept that i'm only mid-lvl monk with observation of lvl 70 monks from a swashies perspective. However If all 3 of my changes were made i'm guessing it would benefit you guys to some extent? maybe not to statisfaction but I'm guessing you wouldn't refuse it!!Your changes seems to be based around DPS......All very well to perhaps make an AA line that gives DPS but as payback you should "lose tanking" ability - if you want to be a bit like a dps scout class thats fine - i like flexibility but there should be penalties for walking down that path. My only worry is that those of us who scream for us to DPS like a scout will result in monks being unified with scouts.......remember SWG.......I think its better to keep our identity intact "avoidance tanks" - i'd rather have tanking and utility improved than to become some half-baked scout style DPSer... Thats my opinion and i realise some of you will disagree.Remember these 2 words "Identity" and "Unique" - if you ignore them when pushing for changes you will destroy this class TBH. My suggestions focus on keeping monks as Avoidance Tanks whilst adding some utility....all i'm trying to do is keep this class true to itself <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Madmoon

07-06-2007, 11:22 AM

Almost all our abilities are done by anyone else, you've even managed to allow anyone and everyone to Feign Death. Either let us soak hits like a comparably equipped tank, HOWEVER you do that, or let us at least out-damage a comparably equipped tank by a LARGE margin. As it is, most any of them (warriors, crusaders) can keep with us AND soak hits AND taunt better.

Gasheron

07-06-2007, 11:30 AM

I dont think that anyone on this forum is asking for the DPS of a scout, but we do need a dps increase so that we are not outdps-ed by guard/zerker while being outtanked at the same time. Not much of an increase, but an increase all the same.As said above, we have problems in three areas, not one. Tanking, DPS, and utility. We are asking for improvements across all three, not just one. We can't be MT/OTs in any high end raid because we die 2 or 12 seconds into tanking, depending on if we get off tsunami in time. We can't MT/OT also because our agro gaining abilities are for the most part pitiful. We can't be chosen for dps because many of the other fighters outdps us, while giving more utility/tanking ability. We can't be chosen for our utility because it pretty much sucks. We just aren't chosen for raids.We need help across the board, and to such an extent that other people in the game will start to drop the perception of a Monk as subpar in every role. Even if we get boosted to an acceptable level, if it's not enough to change the perception of us by the other players/classes, it won't help.

Freliant

07-06-2007, 11:50 AM

Sorry to put it this way, but: Stop whining! If you want to tank, roll a Guardian, if you want to DPS, roll an assassin, if you want to be utility, roll a coercer/dirge/brigand... if you want to complain.. roll a brawler.Brawlers I will admit, have a few shortcomings, and only a fabled brawler makes a descent tank, but instead of complaining do /feedback with specifics that are wanted. You think that a brawlers avoidance should not be based on the quality of the gear they have... then feedback that. You think that there should be a dps stance that removes all your abilities to survive (AKA mage glass cannon) then feedback that. You want to be able to help give massive avoidance to your peers at that cost of both your dps and tanking abilities.. then feedback that... but if you want to do all the above WITHOUT taking penalties... keep dreaming.

Wildfury77

07-06-2007, 12:01 PM

Not sure its whining to request sensible changesa) Group avoidance buff - we only have 1 group buff, compared to 2-3+ on most tanks. That change would still lag us behind them but would a)improve our own avoidance b)aid any MT we are assisting. b) We get 1 debuff - asking that actually does do that....rather than tickle <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />c) AoE agro control has been an issue for some time - decreasing AoE taunt timer or increasing DPS to match DPS-specced warriors doesn't again seem overpowering.I'm trying to be constructive - hope that not construed as whining <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Timaarit

07-06-2007, 12:34 PM

<cite>Gasheron wrote:</cite><blockquote>I dont think that anyone on this forum is asking for the DPS of a scout, but we do need a dps increase so that we are not outdps-ed by guard/zerker while being outtanked at the same time. Not much of an increase, but an increase all the same.As said above, we have problems in three areas, not one. Tanking, DPS, and utility. We are asking for improvements across all three, not just one. We can't be MT/OTs in any high end raid because we die 2 or 12 seconds into tanking, depending on if we get off tsunami in time. We can't MT/OT also because our agro gaining abilities are for the most part pitiful. We can't be chosen for dps because many of the other fighters outdps us, while giving more utility/tanking ability. We can't be chosen for our utility because it pretty much sucks. We just aren't chosen for raids.We need help across the board, and to such an extent that other people in the game will start to drop the perception of a Monk as subpar in every role. Even if we get boosted to an acceptable level, if it's not enough to change the perception of us by the other players/classes, it won't help.</blockquote>Actually, brawlers do need the DPS of a scout. /vague mode off Yes, brawlers already can out-dps 2 of the scout classes. But here is the deal, scouts were meant to be debuffers and utility classes. Bards are propably the best utility there is and they are also the worst DPS of the scouts. Predeators are the highest DPS class but they dont have much debuffs or utility. Rogues are the best debuffers and they have nice utility but they also have hight DPS. Now sine you mentioned scouts, let pick this as the base line. Warriors, well, guardians have massice utility for both tanking and off-tanking but they dont have that high DPS. Zerkers have plenty of DPS and are even great tanks. Crusaders have the most utility of the fighters and are higher DPS than guardians. Brawlers have basically no utility, are the worst tanks of the fighters and in addition are competing with crusaders on the DPS. Since there can be only one MT (guardian) and usually only one OT (guardian/zerker or pally) it leaves monks only two ways. Utility that is between bards and rogues or DPS that is very close to predators. So yes, there are in fact people who want brawlers to have the DPS of scouts. In addtion, it is a fact that brawlers already can out-DPS some scouts. But then there are 6 scout classes with different DPS...

Cornbread Muffin

07-06-2007, 02:33 PM

It is not unreasonable for the brawler to do rogue-like DPS (though rogues themselves may be a little too high). Rogues already get higher mitigation and decent avoidance (read:tanking) in addition to their powerful debuffs (read:utility) and high dps (read:dps). There are already classes out there that have moderate tanking, debuffs, and dps in one package, so it would not be any more unbalancing than rogues already are for brawlers to be similar.

Shankonia

07-06-2007, 02:39 PM

"Class Defining" or "Personality" I think were mentioned a few times in this thread. I think we (Monks) have already lost that. Let's see...FD: Necro, SK, Rouge, anyone who is a TinkererHeal: All healers, Paladin. Self Heal: Warriors, SK, BruiserTsunami: WarriorsHaste: Bard, Illusionist, Shammy, Warrior, Zerker, InquisitorDebuff (like ours really counts): Every other classSo yeah. Basically, every single type of utility that Monks have, another class can do better - if not every other class who shares that utility category it can do it better - and at the same time do a whole lot more. Rangers, Necros and Assassins probably have the least amout of utility next to Monks, however they are all top DPS. Necros can also rez while assassins have argueably the best hate transfer, can apply poison and possess much better debuffs.Bruisers of course are right there with us Monk, however they possess Drag which gives them a class defining ability that we lack.I have to agree though, give us a group wide melee and ranged double attack buff - say 36% at M1 - that is not obtained through AA so we can have a class defining ability (though we would of course share it with Bards, but Bards can buff/debuff for everything so I can live with it).Such a simple change could go such a long, long way.

ganjookie

07-06-2007, 06:00 PM

<cite>Freliant wrote:</cite><blockquote>Sorry to put it this way, but: Stop whining! If you want to tank, roll a Guardian, if you want to DPS, roll an assassin, if you want to be utility, roll a coercer/dirge/brigand... if you want to complain.. roll a brawler.Brawlers I will admit, have a few shortcomings, and only a fabled brawler makes a descent tank, but instead of complaining do /feedback with specifics that are wanted. You think that a brawlers avoidance should not be based on the quality of the gear they have... then feedback that. You think that there should be a dps stance that removes all your abilities to survive (AKA mage glass cannon) then feedback that. You want to be able to help give massive avoidance to your peers at that cost of both your dps and tanking abilities.. then feedback that... but if you want to do all the above WITHOUT taking penalties... keep dreaming.</blockquote>Hi Mr. Wizard-I-have-no-idea-[Removed for Content]-i-am-talking-about. Go back to your cave and smear yourself in batguano

Junaru

07-06-2007, 07:50 PM

<cite>Wildfury77 wrote:</cite><blockquote>Not sure its whining to request sensible changesa) Group avoidance buff - we only have 1 group buff, compared to 2-3+ on most tanks. That change would still lag us behind them but would a)improve our own avoidance b)aid any MT we are assisting.First off giving us an avoidance buff isn't going to fix a raid Brawler. Most can make out avoidance and still get smacked down. b) We get 1 debuff - asking that actually does do that....rather than tickle <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />c) AoE agro control has been an issue for some time - decreasing AoE taunt timer or increasing DPS to match DPS-specced warriors doesn't again seem overpowering.Well how can you boost something we don't have? Brawlers don't have an AoE taunt. I'm trying to be constructive - hope that not construed as whining <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></blockquote>I think the suggestions given in the other thread are useful tools/ideas to assist the Brawler.

Gasheron

07-06-2007, 07:51 PM

<cite>Freliant wrote:</cite><blockquote>Sorry to put it this way, but: Stop whining! If you want to tank, roll a Guardian, if you want to DPS, roll an assassin, if you want to be utility, roll a coercer/dirge/brigand... if you want to complain.. roll a brawler.Brawlers I will admit, have a few shortcomings, and only a fabled brawler makes a descent tank, but instead of complaining do /feedback with specifics that are wanted. You think that a brawlers avoidance should not be based on the quality of the gear they have... then feedback that. You think that there should be a dps stance that removes all your abilities to survive (AKA mage glass cannon) then feedback that. You want to be able to help give massive avoidance to your peers at that cost of both your dps and tanking abilities.. then feedback that... but if you want to do all the above WITHOUT taking penalties... keep dreaming.</blockquote>This is our point. If we want to tank, we have to reroll a different class. If we want to DPS, we have to reroll a different class. If we want utility, we have to reroll a different class. Thank you for proving it for us.So, if we have to reroll for all these different things, where does that leave the Brawler classes?

Zabjade

07-06-2007, 10:18 PM

<cite>Freliant wrote:</cite><blockquote>Sorry to put it this way, but: Stop whining! If you want to tank, roll a Guardian, if you want to DPS, roll an assassin, if you want to be utility, roll a coercer/dirge/brigand... if you want to complain.. roll a brawler.Brawlers I will admit, have a few shortcomings, and only a fabled brawler makes a descent tank, but instead of complaining do /feedback with specifics that are wanted. You think that a brawlers avoidance should not be based on the quality of the gear they have... then feedback that. You think that there should be a dps stance that removes all your abilities to survive (AKA mage glass cannon) then feedback that. You want to be able to help give massive avoidance to your peers at that cost of both your dps and tanking abilities.. then feedback that... but if you want to do all the above WITHOUT taking penalties... keep dreaming.</blockquote>I swear that is the lamest comeback since "You suck" Monks are tanks too, just that the way we deal with damage is broken. We are not asking for no penalties a reduction in Haste will suffice, we're drownding in the stuff and it is making us worse. Thank you Gash for putting it more eloquently them me. Better yet, Roll a brawler and figure it out for yourself.

PaganSaint

07-06-2007, 11:14 PM

He just wanted to de-rail the thread. Another wizzie too butt hurt about losing 7% DPS that he can't see balance.

Wildfury77

07-07-2007, 10:23 AM

<cite>Junaru wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Wildfury77 wrote:</cite><blockquote>Not sure its whining to request sensible changesa) Group avoidance buff - we only have 1 group buff, compared to 2-3+ on most tanks. That change would still lag us behind them but would a)improve our own avoidance b)aid any MT we are assisting.First off giving us an avoidance buff isn't going to fix a raid Brawler. Most can make out avoidance and still get smacked down. b) We get 1 debuff - asking that actually does do that....rather than tickle <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />c) AoE agro control has been an issue for some time - decreasing AoE taunt timer or increasing DPS to match DPS-specced warriors doesn't again seem overpowering.Well how can you boost something we don't have? Brawlers don't have an AoE taunt. I'm trying to be constructive - hope that not construed as whining <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></blockquote>I think the suggestions given in the other thread are useful tools/ideas to assist the Brawler. </blockquote> I like my suggestions (not over the top ideas) As far as taunt - i meant encounter taunt timer......we do have that last time i checked! Beckon 8 Interrupts and increases the hate of all enemies in an encounter towards the monk.

Bladewind

07-07-2007, 11:43 AM

<cite>Shankonia wrote:</cite><blockquote>"Class Defining" or "Personality" I think were mentioned a few times in this thread. I think we (Monks) have already lost that. Let's see...FD: Necro, SK, Rouge, anyone who is a TinkererHeal: All healers, Paladin. Self Heal: Warriors, SK, BruiserTsunami: WarriorsHaste: Bard, Illusionist, Shammy, Warrior, Zerker, InquisitorDebuff (like ours really counts): Every other classSo yeah. Basically, every single type of utility that Monks have, another class can do better - if not every other class who shares that utility </blockquote> The warrior heal is out of combat only, so I would nto include that as a real asset. However, predators get a Tsunami AA, so I would add that to the list <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Novusod

07-07-2007, 12:54 PM

<cite>Junaru wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Wildfury77 wrote:</cite><blockquote>Not sure its whining to request sensible changesa) Group avoidance buff - we only have 1 group buff, compared to 2-3+ on most tanks. That change would still lag us behind them but would a)improve our own avoidance b)aid any MT we are assisting.First off giving us an avoidance buff isn't going to fix a raid Brawler. Most can make out avoidance and still get smacked down.Just to reiterate an AoE Tsunami would definately prevent a smack down as would an AoE stoneskin. b) We get 1 debuff - asking that actually does do that....rather than tickle <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />Brawlers need a debuff that increases the chance that a mob's attack would miss by a flat percentage rather than a simple minus to slash, peirce, and crush they now have which ironically favors mitigation tanks over avoidance tanks. c) AoE agro control has been an issue for some time - decreasing AoE taunt timer or increasing DPS to match DPS-specced warriors doesn't again seem overpowering.Well how can you boost something we don't have? Brawlers don't have an AoE taunt.Make the brawler intercede lines AoE. No other tank would have that and it would make the brawler unique in its' own way. I'm trying to be constructive - hope that not construed as whining <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></blockquote>I think the suggestions given in the other thread are useful tools/ideas to assist the Brawler. </blockquote>

Junaru

07-07-2007, 01:29 PM

<cite>Wildfury77 wrote:</cite><blockquote>Junaru wrote: I like my suggestions (not over the top ideas) As far as taunt - i meant encounter taunt timer......we do have that last time i checked! Beckon 8 Interrupts and increases the hate of all enemies in an encounter towards the monk. </blockquote>Even if that happens a Brawler will still be no match for any plate tank when it comes to aggro control against multiple mobs and mainly out of encounter mobs. And truth is even if a Brawler could tank a raid an live, aggro control would be an issue. There is no way for a Brawler to hold aggro with a Warlock or any other multi-target DPS class doing 3k DPS and if you don't have big hitters doing their damage you can count ANY EoF zone out and some KoS ones. <cite>Novusod wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Junaru wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Wildfury77 wrote:</cite><blockquote>Not sure its whining to request sensible changesa) Group avoidance buff - we only have 1 group buff, compared to 2-3+ on most tanks. That change would still lag us behind them but would a)improve our own avoidance b)aid any MT we are assisting.First off giving us an avoidance buff isn't going to fix a raid Brawler. Most can make out avoidance and still get smacked down.Just to reiterate an AoE Tsunami would definately prevent a smack down as would an AoE stoneskin. Not really and avoidance buff. But how does having AoE tsunami help us tank like he suggested an avoidance buff would? b) We get 1 debuff - asking that actually does do that....rather than tickle <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />Brawlers need a debuff that increases the chance that a mob's attack would miss by a flat percentage rather than a simple minus to slash, peirce, and crush they now have which ironically favors mitigation tanks over avoidance tanks. c) AoE agro control has been an issue for some time - decreasing AoE taunt timer or increasing DPS to match DPS-specced warriors doesn't again seem overpowering.Well how can you boost something we don't have? Brawlers don't have an AoE taunt.Make the brawler intercede lines AoE. No other tank would have that and it would make the brawler unique in its' own way.Yeah right. You realize if the Brawler interceded when a mob hit an AoE spell the Brawler would be dead. Besides that is why we have classes with AoE prevention. I'm trying to be constructive - hope that not construed as whining <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></blockquote>I think the suggestions given in the other thread are useful tools/ideas to assist the Brawler. </blockquote> </blockquote>

Freliant

07-07-2007, 03:18 PM

Ok, lets look at this a different way, since some people seem to take criticism like a cat takes to water:Brawler utility: Safe pulls in raids, group FD for emergency situations, additional avoidance to a target, group increase of auto attack dps.Brawler dps: Much higher than all other fighter class (that is not MT buffed) to the point they rival some mage classes and some scout classes.Brawlers DO have their own nitch: they are the highest dps fighter with utilities that help them save the group and/or raid. Guardians take the most hits, Zerkers do the most aoe, Paladins can absorb the most hates from the surounding members and heal, while SK believe it or not, are still the lowest step in the raid ladder, yet they can still FD other members and they have nice utility for a mage group granting them increased int and casting speeds. Monks and bruisers provide everything I have stated up above and in addition to this they have the most dps of all other figher classes.Notice I said FIGHTER CLASSES. The brawler is a figher class, and they should never go above T3 dps. In normal groups, they can tank well enough and still shoot out enough dps to keep the group moving smoothly. All the pages I have read (with a few exceptions) are just full of complaints for a class that is doing fine the way it is. Heck, I have seen groups in which the brawler class is hands down the highest dps.

Gasheron

07-07-2007, 05:07 PM

<cite>Freliant wrote:</cite><blockquote>Ok, lets look at this a different way, since some people seem to take criticism like a cat takes to water:Brawler utility: Safe pulls in raids, group FD for emergency situations, additional avoidance to a target, group increase of auto attack dps.Brawler dps: Much higher than all other fighter class (that is not MT buffed) to the point they rival some mage classes and some scout classes.Brawlers DO have their own nitch: they are the highest dps fighter with utilities that help them save the group and/or raid. Guardians take the most hits, Zerkers do the most aoe, Paladins can absorb the most hates from the surounding members and heal, while SK believe it or not, are still the lowest step in the raid ladder, yet they can still FD other members and they have nice utility for a mage group granting them increased int and casting speeds. Monks and bruisers provide everything I have stated up above and in addition to this they have the most dps of all other figher classes.Notice I said FIGHTER CLASSES. The brawler is a figher class, and they should never go above T3 dps. In normal groups, they can tank well enough and still shoot out enough dps to keep the group moving smoothly. All the pages I have read (with a few exceptions) are just full of complaints for a class that is doing fine the way it is. Heck, I have seen groups in which the brawler class is hands down the highest dps.</blockquote>How much experience do you really have with brawlers in the raid setting?Brawlers are NOT the highest fighter dps. Zerkers can easily outdps in a raid setting, as can most guardians and SKs. This is common knowledge.As for our utility, group FD saves what, one group? 6 people? How much difference is it if those 6 people die? Because, to my knowledge, when 18 people in a raid die, that's a wipe. All this serves for is a lower repair cost for a few people. And any raid where Group FD is used often enough to be seen as more valuable than that isn't a good raidforce in the first place.Oh, and our single target + avoidance? How does this benefit people in a raid? We can't use it on the MT, since it overrides his/her own buff, and almost all MTs would prefer their own. Same goes for the OT. So, who do we put it on? The dps classes? The healer classes? The utility classes? If any of them are in need of our avoidance buff, again, it isn't a very good raid force, since they shouldn't get agro in the first place.Group haste/dps. How much does this really add? It's already easy enough to get above 100 haste in a raid without a Monk's group buff, so Monks are out. As for dps, can't really say much there, as I don't play a bruiser so I don't know how well desired this buff is.As for the safe pulls in raids, honestly, what raid group out there uses a brawler for his/her safe pulls? The only reason we can POSSIBLY be classified as a safer puller than most other classes is because we can FD a bad pull. But other classes can do the same. Plus, pet pulling is normally safer and more reliable, and, guess what, Necros can do both! Our "safe pulls" can be done by any class who knows how to body pull well.BTW, what mage/scout classes do we rival in dps? Summoners who don't use pets?If you still think we are just fine, play a brawler to 70. Then try to get into a raiding guild or, heck, any top end raid. See what it's like.

Nerill

07-07-2007, 06:54 PM

<cite>Gasheron wrote:</cite><blockquote>How much experience do you really have with brawlers in the raid setting?Brawlers are NOT the highest fighter dps. Zerkers can easily outdps in a raid setting, as can most guardians and SKs. This is common knowledge.As for our utility, group FD saves what, one group? 6 people? How much difference is it if those 6 people die? Because, to my knowledge, when 18 people in a raid die, that's a wipe. All this serves for is a lower repair cost for a few people. And any raid where Group FD is used often enough to be seen as more valuable than that isn't a good raidforce in the first place.Oh, and our single target + avoidance? How does this benefit people in a raid? We can't use it on the MT, since it overrides his/her own buff, and almost all MTs would prefer their own. Same goes for the OT. So, who do we put it on? The dps classes? The healer classes? The utility classes? If any of them are in need of our avoidance buff, again, it isn't a very good raid force, since they shouldn't get agro in the first place.Group haste/dps. How much does this really add? It's already easy enough to get above 100 haste in a raid without a Monk's group buff, so Monks are out. As for dps, can't really say much there, as I don't play a bruiser so I don't know how well desired this buff is.As for the safe pulls in raids, honestly, what raid group out there uses a brawler for his/her safe pulls? The only reason we can POSSIBLY be classified as a safer puller than most other classes is because we can FD a bad pull. But other classes can do the same. Plus, pet pulling is normally safer and more reliable, and, guess what, Necros can do both! Our "safe pulls" can be done by any class who knows how to body pull well.BTW, what mage/scout classes do we rival in dps? Summoners who don't use pets?If you still think we are just fine, play a brawler to 70. Then try to get into a raiding guild or, heck, any top end raid. See what it's like. </blockquote>There are the facts, Mr. Wizard . Now instead of trying to derail our thread and make it seem like the hundreds of posts that we have made are all a bunch of BS, why don't you concentrate on your own classes issues .... like better agro dumps which the Wizard class is in desperate need of.

ganjookie

07-07-2007, 07:07 PM

<cite>Freliant wrote:</cite><blockquote>Ok, lets look at this a different way, since some people seem to take criticism like a cat takes to water:Brawler utility: Safe pulls in raids, group FD for emergency situations, additional avoidance to a target, group increase of auto attack dps.Brawler dps: Much higher than all other fighter class (that is not MT buffed) to the point they rival some mage classes and some scout classes.Brawlers DO have their own nitch: they are the highest dps fighter with utilities that help them save the group and/or raid. Guardians take the most hits, Zerkers do the most aoe, Paladins can absorb the most hates from the surounding members and heal, while SK believe it or not, are still the lowest step in the raid ladder, yet they can still FD other members and they have nice utility for a mage group granting them increased int and casting speeds. Monks and bruisers provide everything I have stated up above and in addition to this they have the most dps of all other figher classes.Notice I said FIGHTER CLASSES. The brawler is a figher class, and they should never go above T3 dps. In normal groups, they can tank well enough and still shoot out enough dps to keep the group moving smoothly. All the pages I have read (with a few exceptions) are just full of complaints for a class that is doing fine the way it is. Heck, I have seen groups in which the brawler class is hands down the highest dps.</blockquote>Sir, It has come to my attention that you stated that BRAWLERS get a group Feign Death. That is INCORRECT. While both subclasses of brawlers have a FD, only monks get group FD. Bruisers do not. Thank you very much for you attention to detail. Since you do not have a full grasp on what a brawler is, I suggest you stay out of the conversation or do a little bit of studying on us. You do not seem to know what you are talking about, and I do not wish to have you look like a fool on an internet forum. thanks Kithian da bruiser P.S. Necromancers, Brigands and Shadowknights have a FD ability, so that point you so keenly wanted to make, is at this time, laughable.

Kaoru

07-08-2007, 10:52 PM

<cite>Freliant wrote:</cite><blockquote>Ok, lets look at this a different way, since some people seem to take criticism like a cat takes to water:Brawler utility: Safe pulls in raids, group FD for emergency situations, additional avoidance to a target, group increase of auto attack dps.Brawler dps: Much higher than all other fighter class (that is not MT buffed) to the point they rival some mage classes and some scout classes.Brawlers DO have their own nitch: they are the highest dps fighter with utilities that help them save the group and/or raid. Guardians take the most hits, Zerkers do the most aoe, Paladins can absorb the most hates from the surounding members and heal, while SK believe it or not, are still the lowest step in the raid ladder, yet they can still FD other members and they have nice utility for a mage group granting them increased int and casting speeds. Monks and bruisers provide everything I have stated up above and in addition to this they have the most dps of all other figher classes.Notice I said FIGHTER CLASSES. The brawler is a figher class, and they should never go above T3 dps. In normal groups, they can tank well enough and still shoot out enough dps to keep the group moving smoothly. All the pages I have read (with a few exceptions) are just full of complaints for a class that is doing fine the way it is. Heck, I have seen groups in which the brawler class is hands down the highest dps.</blockquote>Wow, This has got to be the single dumbest post I have ever seen.

belwulf

07-09-2007, 12:13 AM

any GMs going to comment on what is going to happen to bralwers because of the lack of need for them in a guild and on a raid. In most top guilds theres 1 BRAWLER!!!! seeing on the standard raid there is 8 healers i think someone needs to give the bralwers a lil loven. SHARE THE LOVE!<img src="/smilies/e8a506dc4ad763aca51bec4ca7dc8560.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

sensie

07-09-2007, 05:01 AM

Lyndro replied to the French community, and they are aware of hte problem.http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?topic_id=369902Sensie Hwarang

Elephanton

07-09-2007, 05:32 AM

LOL OMG brawlers are asking for help... you guys already destroy any other class in PVP... there's no class that can win 58+ bruiser... in PVE, you are one of the best classes for farming/killing nameds... do you really need more loving???Personally I think brawlers need to be nerfed HARD to become more inline with other classes' capabilities...P.S. I have 61 bruiser shelved (used to play on Darathar) so don't tell me I don't know anything about the class

Novusod

07-09-2007, 05:50 AM

Soffrina wrote: <blockquote>Thanks for all the great feedback. We are aware of some of the utility issues that fighters in general (and brawlers specifically), have in raids. Right now we have some new abilities that we are testing internally, but we should have them forward facing on test server fairly soon. We look forward to hearing your feedback, and thank you!Lyndro</blockquote>Interesting. Maybe Brawlers will get some help after all.

Novusod

07-09-2007, 06:18 AM

<cite>ElephantonRU wrote:</cite><blockquote>LOL OMG brawlers are asking for help... you guys already destroy any other class in PVP... there's no class that can win 58+ bruiser... in PVE, you are one of the best classes for farming/killing nameds... do you really need more loving???Personally I think brawlers need to be nerfed HARD to become more inline with other classes' capabilities...P.S. I have 61 bruiser shelved (used to play on Darathar) so don't tell me I don't know anything about the class</blockquote>OMG have you ever tried solo'ing a warden in PvP or an SK. Please try playing a bruiser in the year 2007. There are not many bruisers left that can solo farm named all day. I only know one bruiser that can solo the dragon in PoA and he has a full set of PvP gear and used a miricle. Brawlers have been nerfed hard with about a dozen different nerfs in the past year aimed at bringing them inline with other classes' capabilities. This has come at the expense of normal brawlers who don't farm all day and are now crappy tanks and bring nothing to a raid. P.S. I notice you quit at level 61 just when it gets really hard to level on a PvP server. Please ding and run the guantlet to 70 before you say another word about knowing the class. It might be a real eye opener for you.

Raidi Sovin'faile

07-09-2007, 06:27 AM

<cite>Novusod wrote:</cite><blockquote>Soffrina wrote: <blockquote>Thanks for all the great feedback. We are aware of some of the utility issues that fighters in general (and brawlers specifically), have in raids. Right now we have some new abilities that we are testing internally, but we should have them forward facing on test server fairly soon. We look forward to hearing your feedback, and thank you!Lyndro</blockquote>Interesting. Maybe Brawlers will get some help after all. </blockquote>I'm extremely interested in this "new abilities" thing. I wonder if they read my post in the Combat forum, lol.

Raidi Sovin'faile

07-09-2007, 06:31 AM

<cite>Freliant wrote:</cite><blockquote>Ok, lets look at this a different way, since some people seem to take criticism like a cat takes to water:Brawler utility: Safe pulls in raids, group FD for emergency situations, additional avoidance to a target, group increase of auto attack dps.Brawler dps: Much higher than all other fighter class (that is not MT buffed) to the point they rival some mage classes and some scout classes.Brawlers DO have their own nitch: they are the highest dps fighter with utilities that help them save the group and/or raid. Guardians take the most hits, Zerkers do the most aoe, Paladins can absorb the most hates from the surounding members and heal, while SK believe it or not, are still the lowest step in the raid ladder, yet they can still FD other members and they have nice utility for a mage group granting them increased int and casting speeds. Monks and bruisers provide everything I have stated up above and in addition to this they have the most dps of all other figher classes.Notice I said FIGHTER CLASSES. The brawler is a figher class, and they should never go above T3 dps. In normal groups, they can tank well enough and still shoot out enough dps to keep the group moving smoothly. All the pages I have read (with a few exceptions) are just full of complaints for a class that is doing fine the way it is. Heck, I have seen groups in which the brawler class is hands down the highest dps.</blockquote>Lol, I'm sorry, but I have to respond as well... Beyond what others have said, this one kicks me as well: "additional avoidance to a target", like ALL fighters don't get it or something, ha. What's better, a Brawler giving avoidance to the MT, or a second tank that can actually pick up aggro and survive it in the MT group.. giving JUST as much avoidance... ACTUALLY, better, since Tower Shield has more uncontested avoidance, lol. I've said it before, but I seriously think when the opposed viewpoints have to resort to false claims and lies, it really goes to show how right we must be.

Zabjade

07-09-2007, 06:34 AM

Add to the fact that Most people play on PvE servers not PvP, and we have even more problems there as we have no PvP gear that we can buy by pwning people. <img src="/smilies/2786c5c8e1a8be796fb2f726cca5a0fe.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Finding good fabled and Legendary is almost impossible without raiding and you can't get into raids unless you have good Legendary or Fabled.It's called a Catch-22

Siclone

07-09-2007, 10:59 AM

I don't get why brawlers are always complaining. I did not read all these pages, but they are such a fun class to play, they pump out some good dps and can tank and have fd. the brawler in our raid tanks kos raid zones and is on the top 5 of the parse. I don't get why all the griping

Raidi Sovin'faile

07-09-2007, 11:17 AM

<cite>Siclone wrote:</cite><blockquote>I don't get why brawlers are always complaining. I did not read all these pages, but they are such a fun class to play, they pump out some good dps and can tank and have fd. the brawler in our raid tanks kos raid zones and is on the top 5 of the parse. I don't get why all the griping </blockquote> Read all the pages and posts and you will have your answer. The examples you gave are in no way a good representation of equivalent value. KoS raids and 10k raid dps is no longer a valid measuring stick. Please do read and understand the point.

Freliant

07-09-2007, 11:56 AM

So a person is not allowed to comment without getting a personal attack... so be it: To those nit-pickers out there: No Flipping duh! 1) I know Monks are the only ones that have group FD, fall of the Phoenix... they ARE a brawler class. 2) As for giving avoidance, if you didn't know mister I know every class, if the guardian GIVES the avoidance check buff to someone else, it is not him that is getting extra avoidance. He will get some extra parry, but it is NOTHING like if a monk give his avoidance check to the tank. Whenever his avoidance check fails, he has a 50% chance to use the monks avoidance. I want you to keep a straight face and say that any other fighter class has more avoidance than a monk. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that a monk having the highest avoidance and giving it to the MT is a really good thing (albeit very rare to see in raids cause they apparently prefer to give the tank more dps/hate so that the rest of the raid can do more dps).3) yeah... other classes have FD... and apparently you think everyone else's FD refreshes just as quickly as yours does. You see all those other classes with FD going into dungeons, making trains and then FDing in front of a named mob. Trying to kill a few and then FD again if things get bad... yep... all those other classes do that... NOT. You know as well as all those other classes that their FD is on a much more extended timer, and that it has a higher chance to fail than a brawlers' does.4) Pets being safer to pull mobs with is just a steaming pile of ... The only way that pet pulling is better than FD pulling is if you are in a zone with alot of room (to allow mobs to drop off their leashes). If mobs are close enogh to agro on a hit, and the zone respawns quickly, there is absolutely no better puller than a brawler with FD. Specially if you have Tsunami when pulling mobs without a big non-melee based alpha hit.5) FD saving one group? ... lets see... try to read this slowly... so it doesn't go over your head: some raid zones can only be done once... if you die and revive you will be outside the raid zone... other zones have very fast respawn timer, and a complete whipe means you have to start the zone from the begining. Hence, having FD, and specifically having the ability to FD an entire group is amazing for those raids. And in normal groups, you are telling me that its not a wanted utility? A warlock does an aoe and agroes 20+ groups around the zone and group FD is not a good utility? O please.6) Other classes doing the same things you do? Well, too bad, we all have classes that do things our classes do, even if not to the same extent. The fact is, you do have some utility, even if some other classes can do it better. 7) Classes you rival in DPS: Dirges, Troubadors, All other fighters (don't give me that "guardians and zerkers out-dps me" *reason*, you know you pump out more dps than they do), All healers, illusionists and coercers (that do not have a corpse candle pet), and in the right setup, brawlers can pump out more consistant dps than some of the other classes I have mentioned. During our guild raids our bruisers rarely drop under 1.2k dps and I have seen his dps top at around 1.8k. Granted this is in zones like Labs and Lyceum, but its still raid mobs in raid zones.I am thinking the only reason Lyandro stated "specially brawlers" is because they have been screaming the loudest (and as we all know the squeaky wheel gets the grease). IMO the SK is really the one that needs the most loving out of all the fighter classes... heck out of all the melee classes period. Just remember what you are getting for all your complaining. Whenever a class is beefed up in one respect, they are downgraded in a few others to "compensate", so most probably you are asking for your end all nerf that will make everyone quit being a brawler altogether. As for getting a bruiser or monk to raiding standing... I pass... too many fighters in a raid spoils it.To the poster that wants me to focus on my own class *coughnerrilcough*, I have... and I am happy with how I am setup. I went down the int line and have the AoE position reducer AA, and I couldn't be happier. I can dump as much dps as I want, and I know I have an instant "he did it" button if I ever get agro. I am ussually number 2 parser on my guild zone wide and I am ussually placed in any off group without deagro toons (like troub) or even a good fury to give me vim and such... heck, I ussually just buff up some fighter classes. I am happy with my class, and I have nothing to complain about. Seeing other people complain about a class that I have already seen is doing great though is really a peave of mine. But, hey, if you don't like your class, maybe you should roll another one. Might I suggest a wizard ^_^... unless you are gonna spend all your day on the forums complaining why you get agro when you nuke.. then stay out of the class I play please.

Kaoru

07-09-2007, 12:10 PM

<cite>Siclone wrote:</cite><blockquote>I don't get why brawlers are always complaining. I did not read all these pages, but they are such a fun class to play, they pump out some good dps and can tank and have fd. the brawler in our raid tanks kos raid zones and is on the top 5 of the parse. I don't get why all the griping </blockquote>I suggest you read all the pages first, then post in a thread only after then. If your guild Monk tanks a KOS zone and is top 5 on the parse, I suggest you find another guild cause no one is doing their job, or then they are lowering their dps as to not pull aggro. KOS zones should hardly even considered t7 zones since they have been nerfed to hell and back. If you want to understand what is going on, again go back and read from the beginning. What I will agree with you on is that we are a fun class to play. I love my monk and it is because of this that I want to see the needed changes made.

Raidi Sovin'faile

07-09-2007, 12:40 PM

<cite>Freliant wrote:</cite><blockquote>So a person is not allowed to comment without getting a personal attack... so be it:You can comment all you want, but when you start making wild claims and accusations, you are going to get burned. To those nit-pickers out there: No Flipping duh! 1) I know Monks are the only ones that have group FD, fall of the Phoenix... they ARE a brawler class.The problem is that you are saying that GROUP FD is why ALL BRAWLERS have utility in raids. Bruisers ARE a brawler class that DOESN'T get this utility. This is your error. 2) As for giving avoidance, if you didn't know mister I know every class, if the guardian GIVES the avoidance check buff to someone else, it is not him that is getting extra avoidance. He will get some extra parry, but it is NOTHING like if a monk give his avoidance check to the tank. Whenever his avoidance check fails, he has a 50% chance to use the monks avoidance. I want you to keep a straight face and say that any other fighter class has more avoidance than a monk. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that a monk having the highest avoidance and giving it to the MT is a really good thing (albeit very rare to see in raids cause they apparently prefer to give the tank more dps/hate so that the rest of the raid can do more dps).In order to give this Avoidance buff you HAVE to be in the same group. In a raid, that means you are taking up a spot in the MT group. Nevermind the fact that this will never happen, other tanks DO have just as high avoidance, and being that they have a higher UNCONTESTED avoidance, they are the better choice. Tower Shields and Kite Shields are giving more uncontested avoidance than what a Brawler in Defensive stance gives.Also, a Brawler HAS to be in Defensive stance to give this wee bit of uncontested avoidance. Whereas the Zerker or Crusader can give it just by equipping the shield. Then they can sit in Offensive stance and go to town. Hell, a Zerker can get AA's to have no avoidance drops for being in Offensive stance.. in the end, being able to do DPS better, hold aggro better, and give better UNCONTESTED avoidance than a Brawler in the same slot. 3) yeah... other classes have FD... and apparently you think everyone else's FD refreshes just as quickly as yours does. You see all those other classes with FD going into dungeons, making trains and then FDing in front of a named mob. Trying to kill a few and then FD again if things get bad... yep... all those other classes do that... NOT. You know as well as all those other classes that their FD is on a much more extended timer, and that it has a higher chance to fail than a brawlers' does.Wrong, other classes that have FD have it at 100% chance. SK FD other is 100%. Necro is 100%. Brigand/Swash AA FD is 100% and no AoE too. Ours needs a quick recast because it WILL fail. The only one that isn't 100% and long recast is the Tinkered item that ANYONE can get if they try.. and it's 99% (better than our best version mastered).. so not far off. Plus, why are we talking about killing heroic content? The problems with Brawlers is RAID CONTENT. Can we please get past this already? Please read the rest of the thread and understand that the problem is at the RAID level.FD in raids is extremely limited, to the point that it helps on ONE single named, and even that isn't a mandatory tactic. Other than that it can save having to respawn at the starting point if you can revive a healer and not die due to nearby epic adds.Pulling is best done with a pet pull, usually a temporary one (such as a cleric's hammer), and at worst the SK can force FD the healer so he doesn't die. Planeshifted conjuror pets make nice pullers too. Other than that, 99% of the time a MT can do the pulling without any hitches. 4) Pets being safer to pull mobs with is just a steaming pile of ... The only way that pet pulling is better than FD pulling is if you are in a zone with alot of room (to allow mobs to drop off their leashes). If mobs are close enogh to agro on a hit, and the zone respawns quickly, there is absolutely no better puller than a brawler with FD. Specially if you have Tsunami when pulling mobs without a big non-melee based alpha hit.Once again, talking about an ability that is MONK only. Meaning BRUISERS are NOT able to give this same utility, so what about them?Also, Tsunami has been horribly butchered to the point that it is no longer reliable. On top of that, Warriors get a better version of it in their Agi line final, meaning you can have the Zerker run and do the SAME THING but capable of taking the hits if needed.. not to mention tinkered FD at a better chance, or have the SK FD him.Honestly.. if you need to FD pull a named frequently enough to need the 10s recast of a Brawler, you are doing something wrong. 5) FD saving one group? ... lets see... try to read this slowly... so it doesn't go over your head: some raid zones can only be done once... if you die and revive you will be outside the raid zone... other zones have very fast respawn timer, and a complete whipe means you have to start the zone from the begining. Hence, having FD, and specifically having the ability to FD an entire group is amazing for those raids. And in normal groups, you are telling me that its not a wanted utility? A warlock does an aoe and agroes 20+ groups around the zone and group FD is not a good utility? O please.All you need is one person to start rezzing in situations like that. Also, how does this help the BRUISER, once again? We are talking about BRAWLERS needing help.. which means you still haven't explained how a BRUISER brings this utility.A Necro can FD at 100% chance AND can rez.. without needing any help from an outside source. An SK can FD the healer before they get killed. A Rogue can FD and not get killed by the AoEs from the rampaging epics as they finish off the rest.The Monk Group FD isn't even guaranteed for everyone in the group... it's not a guaranteed 6 people still alive. In practice, and in my own personal experience... at least a couple people end up eating it anyways. Group FD is on a lower FD chance than the Monk's personal FD.So really... how is this some unique ability that is absolutely required compared to what others bring to the raid? 6) Other classes doing the same things you do? Well, too bad, we all have classes that do things our classes do, even if not to the same extent. The fact is, you do have some utility, even if some other classes can do it better.If everyone can do everything you can do and better, then there is no point to having you there over anyone else.Your point would be valid if our abilities were needed enough, or the package of abilities were unique enough to warrant wanting you there. But that's simply not the case.Most of the things you've mentioned are entirely unneeded to begin with, withe the rest being well covered by others giving a LOT more in other departments (debuffing, DPS, tanking). 7) Classes you rival in DPS: Dirges, Troubadors, All other fighters (don't give me that "guardians and zerkers out-dps me" *reason*, you know you pump out more dps than they do), All healers, illusionists and coercers (that do not have a corpse candle pet), and in the right setup, brawlers can pump out more consistant dps than some of the other classes I have mentioned. During our guild raids our bruisers rarely drop under 1.2k dps and I have seen his dps top at around 1.8k. Granted this is in zones like Labs and Lyceum, but its still raid mobs in raid zones.Bards can do more than 1.2k DPS AND pump everyone's DPS in the group by hundreds at the same time. Brawlers give a smidgen of Haste or DPS, with diminished returns ending up giving very little overall, so their DPS is about all they give to a raid. Please go read some of the other Fighter forums and see for yourself how much they can parse. I'm sorry if your non-DPS spec'd, KoS geared Fighters aren't pulling down stupid amounts of DPS, but to anyone that even tries a little at the end game, they can do just as much DPS as a Brawler and even more if it's a group encounter.Illusionists consistantly pull down 2-2.5k dps.. so not sure where you are getting your numbers there. Coercers are definitely lower, but they tend to be spec'd for MT groups and pump out an unreal amount of utility (power management, hate management, crowd control even in epic fights, healer buffing, etc). 1k parses from Coercers is par for the course considering they basically make a raid happen.And really.. Labs and Lyceum? Are we still stuck on the previous expansion here? I'm not just talking about you, there's been a rash of posts lately where people are making "claims" about Brawlers and citing examples of the last expansion.If your sum total experience with brawlers is in raids that can be two grouped with today's gear... that would be why you don't understand what the problem is. I am thinking the only reason Lyandro stated "specially brawlers" is because they have been screaming the loudest (and as we all know the squeaky wheel gets the grease). IMO the SK is really the one that needs the most loving out of all the fighter classes... heck out of all the melee classes period. Just remember what you are getting for all your complaining. Whenever a class is beefed up in one respect, they are downgraded in a few others to "compensate", so most probably you are asking for your end all nerf that will make everyone quit being a brawler altogether. As for getting a bruiser or monk to raiding standing... I pass... too many fighters in a raid spoils it.There needs to be more reasons for Fighters to be on a raid. I for one will welcome a change for ALL fighters. However, this will most likely give Brawlers much needed help because unlike every other fighter, THEY WON'T EVER BE TANKING. Not until some kind of change is made to their survivability and aggro control... but even then, Tower of Stone and other buffs will make Guardians preferred... If you can't see why it's an imbalance to have zero "need" for multiple fighters in a raid, then I really can't help you. We are talking about alienating a quarter of the player base classes on a significant portion of end game content. More fighter need, the better. To the poster that wants me to focus on my own class *coughnerrilcough*, I have... and I am happy with how I am setup. I went down the int line and have the AoE position reducer AA, and I couldn't be happier. I can dump as much dps as I want, and I know I have an instant "he did it" button if I ever get agro. I am ussually number 2 parser on my guild zone wide and I am ussually placed in any off group without deagro toons (like troub) or even a good fury to give me vim and such... heck, I ussually just buff up some fighter classes. I am happy with my class, and I have nothing to complain about. Seeing other people complain about a class that I have already seen is doing great though is really a peave of mine. But, hey, if you don't like your class, maybe you should roll another one. Might I suggest a wizard ^_^... unless you are gonna spend all your day on the forums complaining why you get agro when you nuke.. then stay out of the class I play please. You are the one making extremely opposing claims about a class you admit to having no experience playing. Walk a mile in my shoes before you start saying your opinions like they are fact. WE have played the Brawler class, and have eeked out as much as possible from it. When our alts are being asked to be played on raids over our mains because there is more reason for them, we are experiencing firsthand the problems we talk about. And by the way... this isn't a class envy thread, or "nerf the other classes" thread. I'm sure 99% of the Brawlers here have multiple characters they play. However, that doesn't mean we'll sit around with a class sitting in an obvious imbalance and not say anything. The Devs want Feedback, they want to make the game better, well here it is.. our feedback. Try not to [Removed for Content] all over it without doing your research. </blockquote>

Timaarit

07-09-2007, 12:40 PM

<cite>Freliant wrote:</cite><blockquote>So a person is not allowed to comment without getting a personal attack... so be it: To those nit-pickers out there: No Flipping duh! 1) I know Monks are the only ones that have group FD, fall of the Phoenix... they ARE a brawler class. </blockquote>Well your post is actually an attack against all brawlers. So what can you really expect. 1. Still, brawlers DO NOT get group feign. A huge difference. 2. The monks avoidance buff works just like avoidance. Against epics, the higher the uncontested part is, the better it will work. Tower shield gives more uncontested avoidance, thus the avoidance buff from a fighter using tower shield is better than the one from a brawler. Simple really. 3. Fast refreshing FD is really not even remotely useful in raids. Unless you plan to wipe every 10 seconds. 4. There is absolutely no art in pulling in EQ2. None. If you think there is, then you are wrong. 5. group fd has zero effect in a raid situation. Sure, you might get one healer up a bit faster but it still wont save any time. Money? Who really cares about 4g? 6. uh? What did you say? What exactly do you think as utility from brawlers? 7. Wow, we rival dirges in DPS. Just WOW, we must be HUGE DPS. Seriously, we are much higher DPS than bards but a zerker who knows how to play will beat us any day. We do fight with crusader when DPSing but lose by a mile when comparing utility and tanking ability. I guess you only look at DPS when you look at brawlers and since we can occasionally beat a crusader, then you see no issue. But you are wrong at that, if brawlers are equal with a class in DPS, they brawlers should be equal in other fields as well. That poster, who wanted you to focus in your own class, is correct. You are trolling the thread here.

Timaarit

07-09-2007, 12:44 PM

<cite>Freliant wrote:</cite><blockquote>Might I suggest a wizard ^_^... unless you are gonna spend all your day on the forums complaining why you get agro when you nuke.. then stay out of the class I play please.</blockquote>Btw, just a few simple questions: How many brawlers does your guild have on raids? Reading from your posts you should be using at least one per group since brawlers are do good. Do you actually have any? Do you notice the difference when you dont?

Kaoru

07-09-2007, 12:56 PM

Kaisoku@Mistmoore wrote: <blockquote><cite>Freliant wrote:</cite><blockquote>So a person is not allowed to comment without getting a personal attack... so be it:You can comment all you want, but when you start making wild claims and accusations, you are going to get burned. To those nit-pickers out there: No Flipping duh! 1) I know Monks are the only ones that have group FD, fall of the Phoenix... they ARE a brawler class.The problem is that you are saying that GROUP FD is why ALL BRAWLERS have utility in raids. Bruisers ARE a brawler class that DOESN'T get this utility. This is your error. 2) As for giving avoidance, if you didn't know mister I know every class, if the guardian GIVES the avoidance check buff to someone else, it is not him that is getting extra avoidance. He will get some extra parry, but it is NOTHING like if a monk give his avoidance check to the tank. Whenever his avoidance check fails, he has a 50% chance to use the monks avoidance. I want you to keep a straight face and say that any other fighter class has more avoidance than a monk. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that a monk having the highest avoidance and giving it to the MT is a really good thing (albeit very rare to see in raids cause they apparently prefer to give the tank more dps/hate so that the rest of the raid can do more dps).In order to give this Avoidance buff you HAVE to be in the same group. In a raid, that means you are taking up a spot in the MT group. Nevermind the fact that this will never happen, other tanks DO have just as high avoidance, and being that they have a higher UNCONTESTED avoidance, they are the better choice. Tower Shields and Kite Shields are giving more uncontested avoidance than what a Brawler in Defensive stance gives.Also, a Brawler HAS to be in Defensive stance to give this wee bit of uncontested avoidance. Whereas the Zerker or Crusader can give it just by equipping the shield. Then they can sit in Offensive stance and go to town. Hell, a Zerker can get AA's to have no avoidance drops for being in Offensive stance.. in the end, being able to do DPS better, hold aggro better, and give better UNCONTESTED avoidance than a Brawler in the same slot. 3) yeah... other classes have FD... and apparently you think everyone else's FD refreshes just as quickly as yours does. You see all those other classes with FD going into dungeons, making trains and then FDing in front of a named mob. Trying to kill a few and then FD again if things get bad... yep... all those other classes do that... NOT. You know as well as all those other classes that their FD is on a much more extended timer, and that it has a higher chance to fail than a brawlers' does.Wrong, other classes that have FD have it at 100% chance. SK FD other is 100%. Necro is 100%. Brigand/Swash AA FD is 100% and no AoE too. Ours needs a quick recast because it WILL fail. The only one that isn't 100% and long recast is the Tinkered item that ANYONE can get if they try.. and it's 99% (better than our best version mastered).. so not far off. Plus, why are we talking about killing heroic content? The problems with Brawlers is RAID CONTENT. Can we please get past this already? Please read the rest of the thread and understand that the problem is at the RAID level.FD in raids is extremely limited, to the point that it helps on ONE single named, and even that isn't a mandatory tactic. Other than that it can save having to respawn at the starting point if you can revive a healer and not die due to nearby epic adds.Pulling is best done with a pet pull, usually a temporary one (such as a cleric's hammer), and at worst the SK can force FD the healer so he doesn't die. Planeshifted conjuror pets make nice pullers too. Other than that, 99% of the time a MT can do the pulling without any hitches. 4) Pets being safer to pull mobs with is just a steaming pile of ... The only way that pet pulling is better than FD pulling is if you are in a zone with alot of room (to allow mobs to drop off their leashes). If mobs are close enogh to agro on a hit, and the zone respawns quickly, there is absolutely no better puller than a brawler with FD. Specially if you have Tsunami when pulling mobs without a big non-melee based alpha hit.Once again, talking about an ability that is MONK only. Meaning BRUISERS are NOT able to give this same utility, so what about them?Also, Tsunami has been horribly butchered to the point that it is no longer reliable. On top of that, Warriors get a better version of it in their Agi line final, meaning you can have the Zerker run and do the SAME THING but capable of taking the hits if needed.. not to mention tinkered FD at a better chance, or have the SK FD him.Honestly.. if you need to FD pull a named frequently enough to need the 10s recast of a Brawler, you are doing something wrong. 5) FD saving one group? ... lets see... try to read this slowly... so it doesn't go over your head: some raid zones can only be done once... if you die and revive you will be outside the raid zone... other zones have very fast respawn timer, and a complete whipe means you have to start the zone from the begining. Hence, having FD, and specifically having the ability to FD an entire group is amazing for those raids. And in normal groups, you are telling me that its not a wanted utility? A warlock does an aoe and agroes 20+ groups around the zone and group FD is not a good utility? O please.All you need is one person to start rezzing in situations like that. Also, how does this help the BRUISER, once again? We are talking about BRAWLERS needing help.. which means you still haven't explained how a BRUISER brings this utility.A Necro can FD at 100% chance AND can rez.. without needing any help from an outside source. An SK can FD the healer before they get killed. A Rogue can FD and not get killed by the AoEs from the rampaging epics as they finish off the rest.The Monk Group FD isn't even guaranteed for everyone in the group... it's not a guaranteed 6 people still alive. In practice, and in my own personal experience... at least a couple people end up eating it anyways. Group FD is on a lower FD chance than the Monk's personal FD.So really... how is this some unique ability that is absolutely required compared to what others bring to the raid? 6) Other classes doing the same things you do? Well, too bad, we all have classes that do things our classes do, even if not to the same extent. The fact is, you do have some utility, even if some other classes can do it better.If everyone can do everything you can do and better, then there is no point to having you there over anyone else.Your point would be valid if our abilities were needed enough, or the package of abilities were unique enough to warrant wanting you there. But that's simply not the case.Most of the things you've mentioned are entirely unneeded to begin with, withe the rest being well covered by others giving a LOT more in other departments (debuffing, DPS, tanking). 7) Classes you rival in DPS: Dirges, Troubadors, All other fighters (don't give me that "guardians and zerkers out-dps me" *reason*, you know you pump out more dps than they do), All healers, illusionists and coercers (that do not have a corpse candle pet), and in the right setup, brawlers can pump out more consistant dps than some of the other classes I have mentioned. During our guild raids our bruisers rarely drop under 1.2k dps and I have seen his dps top at around 1.8k. Granted this is in zones like Labs and Lyceum, but its still raid mobs in raid zones.Bards can do more than 1.2k DPS AND pump everyone's DPS in the group by hundreds at the same time. Brawlers give a smidgen of Haste or DPS, with diminished returns ending up giving very little overall, so their DPS is about all they give to a raid. Please go read some of the other Fighter forums and see for yourself how much they can parse. I'm sorry if your non-DPS spec'd, KoS geared Fighters aren't pulling down stupid amounts of DPS, but to anyone that even tries a little at the end game, they can do just as much DPS as a Brawler and even more if it's a group encounter.Illusionists consistantly pull down 2-2.5k dps.. so not sure where you are getting your numbers there. Coercers are definitely lower, but they tend to be spec'd for MT groups and pump out an unreal amount of utility (power management, hate management, crowd control even in epic fights, healer buffing, etc). 1k parses from Coercers is par for the course considering they basically make a raid happen.And really.. Labs and Lyceum? Are we still stuck on the previous expansion here? I'm not just talking about you, there's been a rash of posts lately where people are making "claims" about Brawlers and citing examples of the last expansion.If your sum total experience with brawlers is in raids that can be two grouped with today's gear... that would be why you don't understand what the problem is. I am thinking the only reason Lyandro stated "specially brawlers" is because they have been screaming the loudest (and as we all know the squeaky wheel gets the grease). IMO the SK is really the one that needs the most loving out of all the fighter classes... heck out of all the melee classes period. Just remember what you are getting for all your complaining. Whenever a class is beefed up in one respect, they are downgraded in a few others to "compensate", so most probably you are asking for your end all nerf that will make everyone quit being a brawler altogether. As for getting a bruiser or monk to raiding standing... I pass... too many fighters in a raid spoils it.There needs to be more reasons for Fighters to be on a raid. I for one will welcome a change for ALL fighters. However, this will most likely give Brawlers much needed help because unlike every other fighter, THEY WON'T EVER BE TANKING. Not until some kind of change is made to their survivability and aggro control... but even then, Tower of Stone and other buffs will make Guardians preferred... If you can't see why it's an imbalance to have zero "need" for multiple fighters in a raid, then I really can't help you. We are talking about alienating a quarter of the player base classes on a significant portion of end game content. More fighter need, the better. To the poster that wants me to focus on my own class *coughnerrilcough*, I have... and I am happy with how I am setup. I went down the int line and have the AoE position reducer AA, and I couldn't be happier. I can dump as much dps as I want, and I know I have an instant "he did it" button if I ever get agro. I am ussually number 2 parser on my guild zone wide and I am ussually placed in any off group without deagro toons (like troub) or even a good fury to give me vim and such... heck, I ussually just buff up some fighter classes. I am happy with my class, and I have nothing to complain about. Seeing other people complain about a class that I have already seen is doing great though is really a peave of mine. But, hey, if you don't like your class, maybe you should roll another one. Might I suggest a wizard ^_^... unless you are gonna spend all your day on the forums complaining why you get agro when you nuke.. then stay out of the class I play please. You are the one making extremely opposing claims about a class you admit to having no experience playing. Walk a mile in my shoes before you start saying your opinions like they are fact. WE have played the Brawler class, and have eeked out as much as possible from it. When our alts are being asked to be played on raids over our mains because there is more reason for them, we are experiencing firsthand the problems we talk about. And by the way... this isn't a class envy thread, or "nerf the other classes" thread. I'm sure 99% of the Brawlers here have multiple characters they play. However, that doesn't mean we'll sit around with a class sitting in an obvious imbalance and not say anything. The Devs want Feedback, they want to make the game better, well here it is.. our feedback. Try not to [I cannot control my vocabulary] all over it without doing your research. </blockquote> </blockquote>Amen

Mimnousa

07-09-2007, 01:55 PM

<cite>Freliant wrote:</cite><blockquote>So a person is not allowed to comment without getting a personal attack... so be it: To those nit-pickers out there: No Flipping duh! 1) I know Monks are the only ones that have group FD, fall of the Phoenix... they ARE a brawler class. 2) As for giving avoidance, if you didn't know mister I know every class, if the guardian GIVES the avoidance check buff to someone else, it is not him that is getting extra avoidance. He will get some extra parry, but it is NOTHING like if a monk give his avoidance check to the tank. Whenever his avoidance check fails, he has a 50% chance to use the monks avoidance. I want you to keep a straight face and say that any other fighter class has more avoidance than a monk. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that a monk having the highest avoidance and giving it to the MT is a really good thing (albeit very rare to see in raids cause they apparently prefer to give the tank more dps/hate so that the rest of the raid can do more dps).3) yeah... other classes have FD... and apparently you think everyone else's FD refreshes just as quickly as yours does. You see all those other classes with FD going into dungeons, making trains and then FDing in front of a named mob. Trying to kill a few and then FD again if things get bad... yep... all those other classes do that... NOT. You know as well as all those other classes that their FD is on a much more extended timer, and that it has a higher chance to fail than a brawlers' does.4) Pets being safer to pull mobs with is just a steaming pile of ... The only way that pet pulling is better than FD pulling is if you are in a zone with alot of room (to allow mobs to drop off their leashes). If mobs are close enogh to agro on a hit, and the zone respawns quickly, there is absolutely no better puller than a brawler with FD. Specially if you have Tsunami when pulling mobs without a big non-melee based alpha hit.5) FD saving one group? ... lets see... try to read this slowly... so it doesn't go over your head: some raid zones can only be done once... if you die and revive you will be outside the raid zone... other zones have very fast respawn timer, and a complete whipe means you have to start the zone from the begining. Hence, having FD, and specifically having the ability to FD an entire group is amazing for those raids. And in normal groups, you are telling me that its not a wanted utility? A warlock does an aoe and agroes 20+ groups around the zone and group FD is not a good utility? O please.6) Other classes doing the same things you do? Well, too bad, we all have classes that do things our classes do, even if not to the same extent. The fact is, you do have some utility, even if some other classes can do it better. 7) Classes you rival in DPS: Dirges, Troubadors, All other fighters (don't give me that "guardians and zerkers out-dps me" *reason*, you know you pump out more dps than they do), All healers, illusionists and coercers (that do not have a corpse candle pet), and in the right setup, brawlers can pump out more consistant dps than some of the other classes I have mentioned. During our guild raids our bruisers rarely drop under 1.2k dps and I have seen his dps top at around 1.8k. Granted this is in zones like Labs and Lyceum, but its still raid mobs in raid zones.I am thinking the only reason Lyandro stated "specially brawlers" is because they have been screaming the loudest (and as we all know the squeaky wheel gets the grease). IMO the SK is really the one that needs the most loving out of all the fighter classes... heck out of all the melee classes period. Just remember what you are getting for all your complaining. Whenever a class is beefed up in one respect, they are downgraded in a few others to "compensate", so most probably you are asking for your end all nerf that will make everyone quit being a brawler altogether. As for getting a bruiser or monk to raiding standing... I pass... too many fighters in a raid spoils it.To the poster that wants me to focus on my own class *coughnerrilcough*, I have... and I am happy with how I am setup. I went down the int line and have the AoE position reducer AA, and I couldn't be happier. I can dump as much dps as I want, and I know I have an instant "he did it" button if I ever get agro. I am ussually number 2 parser on my guild zone wide and I am ussually placed in any off group without deagro toons (like troub) or even a good fury to give me vim and such... heck, I ussually just buff up some fighter classes. I am happy with my class, and I have nothing to complain about. Seeing other people complain about a class that I have already seen is doing great though is really a peave of mine. But, hey, if you don't like your class, maybe you should roll another one. Might I suggest a wizard ^_^... unless you are gonna spend all your day on the forums complaining why you get agro when you nuke.. then stay out of the class I play please.</blockquote> Ok then why is that a valid argument if it is not a thing that useable in a raid to have a brawler giving it's avoidance to the mt. That kills half the argument and its plain silly for a brawler to be in a mt raid group. This post also is about making the brawler class viable on raids not their soloability. I am sorry pet classes and rogues solo much better then brawlers anyways and yet they have spots and needs on a raid so please toss out the "because we can solo so well argument." Ok here is my issue with the group feign as a fail safe. You are saying ok if there is a mismanaged nuke and you pull 20 mobs on the raid we should use it. Ok that is fine and dandy but here in lies the problem(beside the fact you should dkp deduct or boot said Leeroy warlock from raid) is that its has a 90%(M1) success rate. That is NOT overall success that is per mob. So in that secenario 20 mobs even conned ((it goes down against higher conned mobs considerbly)) each member of the group has a 12% chance to survive. If i group feign i usually get back up and then use my self feign as it is a bit better at 97%(M1) but not the great guaranteed feign of other classes. Necros are much better for feigning off bad pulls then monks or bruisers and they are much more sought after for raids as they have t1 dps, give out mana hearts, can rez and feign. Really be honest why would you want a monk over a necro in a raid? I have been in and cleared every raid zone except emerald halls and the throne room as a monk and I have yet seen a situation where i have needed to tsunami pull over a pet pull. Ok and here is what i have seen about warrior classes and their dps in comparsion to brawlers. Yes the brawlers hold a SLIGHT edge over the buckler warriors as of dps. But what we have to give up as of mit, uncontested avoidance, groups buffs (rage and groupwide str buff for zerkers vs 22 haste for a monk what is the dps group gonna want more???)), and agro managemnt its plain silly. For what brawlers have to give up to the plate warriors for their advantages we shouldnt even have to struggle to beat them on the parse. Sk's do fit in very nicely with casters and can tank raid zones so much better then brawlers so that is a wash. I have seen a SK tank successfully tank FTH and DT so really are they that broken? They need as much attention as the brawlers if a lil less as they can buff a caster group wonderfully. Warriors and paladins have better melee dps buffs so I have yet to figure where as tanks brawlers fit in as buffers as we dont not hold a huge edge dps wise over the other tank classes? Personally some people in the raid viable classes don't want to see any changes to the brawlers as alot of raid forces dont have them in it and an improved brawler would mean some of the other classes would not be guaranteed but have to be considered. I am sorry raiding is big enough for all the classes in the game but as of now the brawlers really are fully replaceable and no serious need. Please be honest here Yes monks are great soloers but so are several other classes and because a Monk can farm SOS doesnt mean they shouldnt have a need spot in a raid force. And the comment of to many fighters in a raid force spoils it is just a pigheaded remark in my opinion as really if we want to look at true BALANCE you would have 6 viable red marks out of 24 on a raid team. That comment right there just proves to me that you dont want raid balance and frankly comments like that are what burns people who have dumped DAYS into playing their character to only be told to go and roll another. So please go back to the wizzard forums unless you have things to HELP us then please post. If not then come back with hard facts that we are t1 dps and that we are so great. And please tell me where there is a raid force that wants and needs brawlers badly because I have yet to meet them.

Freliant

07-09-2007, 02:05 PM

My guild has close to 6 raid capable brawler types. They do not always attend all raids because of personal reasons (we are a casual guild after all). Most of them feel they are gimped, even though they still parse high and are regularly used for pulling. True, that is about the extent to what they are used for.I will give you guys one point: I am not in an end content raid. We do not do EoF raids on a regular basis, so if there is something drastic that changes between KoS content and EoF content, then forgive me. If you are saying that Brawler types need more utility to be usefull when doing EoF raid content, that is a completely different story than just making the general claim: all brawlers are damaged and require a fix. If the fix you guys want is situational (that is, for doing EoF+ raids), then ask for that. As for getting passed group content, unfortunately any change to make brawlers better at raiding directly affects how good they will be in a group, and that could potentially be damaging.I grow tired of arguing my point, and Kaisoku is right in the fact that fighters are not ussually wanted above other classes if there is already a good Tank and Off-tank in the raid. If the "new abilities" that will be brought to the fighter lines will bring raiding in line without adversely affecting grouping, then great, but just remember, and quote me on this: "Once the new abilities are released, there will still be more outcry about balance and relearning their class."

PaganSaint

07-09-2007, 02:14 PM

You had no point. You had blatant and, by all appearances, intentional ignorance of the problems of the two classes.

Timaarit

07-09-2007, 03:06 PM

<cite>Freliant wrote:</cite><blockquote>I will give you guys one point: I am not in an end content raid. </blockquote>Then why do you think your situation represents the brawlers whose guild does the EoF raids regularly? This is a fact, with my current DPS, I would have topped most of the parses in pre-EoF raids. Now my monk is the last if you consider DPS classes. I can basically beat the healers (though sometimes some gets really high numbers), the bards, the chanters who are raid specced (the dps specced chanters just own me) and usually the guardian too. Crusaders are touch and go and zerkers with single targets, with groups the zerks plain own my DPS. In zonewides my monk is again the last of the DPS classes while hitting 1700 DPS. Zerkers do 2k+ at the same time and rogues 2,4k+. So once your guild improves, your brawlers will be left far behind.

Freliant

07-09-2007, 03:45 PM

<cite>PaganSaint wrote:</cite><blockquote>You had no point. You had blatant and, by all appearances, intentional ignorance of the problems of the two classes. </blockquote> Its comments like this that made me stop trying. If you want a debate, you need to have more than just: my point is right, and no other point is valid attitude. I had no "intentional ignorance of the problem, and I know the differences of the 2 brawler classes, you just want to undermine my point by stating such false accusations. I already posted that my original post was and is situational to grouping and Pre-EOF raid equipped groups. If you want to continue attacking that side of my post, by all means go ahead, but its just beating down an FD brawler. The point the brawler community of this point want to make, is that in EoF raid content, after they are sufficiently geared up, they become obsolete to the raid because they don't bring anything unique or that can't be readily replaced by another more "usefull" class. My point wasn't related to that, but go ahead, fight all you want.. fact still remains that if they want to make fighter classes more viable in raids that some changes are probably gonna happen that are gonna make other classes complain (anyone remember the mezz changes that made all other classes mezz virtually worthless while make the mezzer classes much more powerfull). At this point, time will tell, and for your sake, lets hope they make the changes to your liking, cause I don't think the forums will be able to hold the pages of complaints.

Couching

07-09-2007, 03:58 PM

<cite>Freliant wrote:</cite><blockquote>My guild has close to 6 raid capable brawler types. They do not always attend all raids because of personal reasons (we are a casual guild after all). Most of them feel they are gimped, even though they still parse high and are regularly used for pulling. True, that is about the extent to what they are used for.I will give you guys one point: I am not in an end content raid. We do not do EoF raids on a regular basis, so if there is something drastic that changes between KoS content and EoF content, then forgive me. If you are saying that Brawler types need more utility to be usefull when doing EoF raid content, that is a completely different story than just making the general claim: all brawlers are damaged and require a fix. If the fix you guys want is situational (that is, for doing EoF+ raids), then ask for that. As for getting passed group content, unfortunately any change to make brawlers better at raiding directly affects how good they will be in a group, and that could potentially be damaging.I grow tired of arguing my point, and Kaisoku is right in the fact that fighters are not ussually wanted above other classes if there is already a good Tank and Off-tank in the raid. If the "new abilities" that will be brought to the fighter lines will bring raiding in line without adversely affecting grouping, then great, but just remember, and quote me on this: "Once the new abilities are released, there will still be more outcry about balance and relearning their class."</blockquote>That's why it is stupid to comment something based on your own experience since you are not in high end guilds. Why? Too many slackers in casual or family guilds. Experiences in raids with casual guilds didn't mean anything. That's why I made comments of classes balance on game mechanisms rather than my own experiences even I am in end game guild. Brawlers are way underpowered in raids comparing to any class. Less fighters needed in raid is just a problem for all fighters but brawler problem is by far than this. A summary of brawler is that we are worst on tanking, utility, aggro control and sub-par dps comparing to other fighters. From your posts, you don't believe that zerker, sk or even guardian can out damage brawlers because it was against your personal experience. That's why your comment based on your experience is worthless. It's garbage. It just means your guardian. sk and zerker are slacking. No more.

Bladewind

07-09-2007, 04:10 PM

Kaisoku@Mistmoore wrote: <blockquote><cite>Freliant wrote:</cite><blockquote><snip></blockquote> </blockquote> Very well-worded and even-keel reply, hear hear!

Tspesh

07-09-2007, 04:55 PM

Just a comment due to some issues I have read in the post. Sk does get FD and can FD another player however it is for a srort duration not 12 hours as the monk brawler one is. I find that when i use the FD in a raid the individual I FD'ed tends to get up before the mobs have completely wiped all the other players therefore they die also not all that useful. As for buffing mages Sk have mainly self buffs they are not very capable when it comes to buffing others.Since I also have a 70 Bruiser and a 70 assassin as well as my 70 SK I can honestly say that the SK and Bruiser do have alot of diffenences when it comes to tanking on a solo lvl the Bruiser is far better he can solo mobs the Sk cannot. However in a group the Sk is hands down better especially when confronted with multiple mobs. The assassin cannot and does not tank since he is addicted to breathing. But he also has really only 2 utility skills and that is poison on another character as long as not a poison user themselves and hate transfer which is awesome only for single target mobs. If its a group of mobs the swashy is better for that than the assassin.

Bladewind

07-09-2007, 05:21 PM

<cite>Freliant wrote:</cite><blockquote><snip>I am not in an end content raid. We do not do EoF raids on a regular basis, so if there is something drastic that changes between KoS content and EoF content, then forgive me. If you are saying that Brawler types need more utility to be usefull when doing EoF raid content, that is a completely different story than just making the general claim: all brawlers are damaged and require a fix. If the fix you guys want is situational (that is, for doing EoF+ raids), then ask for that.<snip>Read the thread - that is specifically what we are asking for. I used to be in the 'brawlers are fine camp' prior to my alliance hitting EoF content - there is a gulf of difference between KoS and EoF. Tanking KoS content is closer to tanking tier 6 content than it is to tanking EoF content.<snip>As for getting passed group content, unfortunately any change to make brawlers better at raiding directly affects how good they will be in a group, and that could potentially be damaging.<snip>Increasing uncontested avoidance to a point such that brawlers have the highest of all fighters has zero effect on solo content and a very minor effect on heroic content. Let's take a look at avoidance and mitigation in 3 scenarios - solo, group, raid and compare a plate tank to a brawler.solo - Brawler has most avoidance by far and significantly less mitigation, but the numbers mirror one another with the plate tank enjoying a similar advantage in the mitigation department..group - Brawler has about 65-70% avoidance and 45-50% mit. Plate tank has 55-60% avoidance and 60%+ mitigation. Things balance out well here. Shockingly, bawlers have no real issue tanking heroic content relative to plate tanks.raid - Brawler has 12-15% effective avoidance (although character sheet says 70-75%) and 50-55% mit. Plate tank has 20-30% effective avoidance (chracter sheet reads 60-65+%) and 65+% mit. Huge disparity here - not surprisingly, brawler tanking suffers heavily when uncontested avoidance comes into play.So, brawlers go from being the kings of avodiance (rightly so) in the solo and group arena to having as little as half the avoidance of a plate tank in the raid arena. Avoidance tanks having the least avoidance doesn't make much sense to me. Plate tanks still enjoy their mitigation superiority as one would expect, but they suddenly also have an extreme avodiance advantage against epic mobs. This is a failure of game mechanic design. No tank class should be able to have the most mitigation and avoidance - hence the outcry over imbalance in the raid scenario.</blockquote> As far as dps goes, brawlers did once have the highest single target dps (generally) for fighters. This was before AA's and the new mechanics such as double attack and aoe auto attack were introduced (read before KoS, or a year ago). Double attack introduces a third way to increase auto attack dps on a single target (+haste and +dps being the two original ways). Brawlers only have access to double attack if they go barehanded, which means they take an enormous stat/proc hit, and, more importantly, that they cannot increase their base damage (which in turn magnifies the effect of +haste, +dps, and double attack) through weapon upgrades. Haste, dps bonuses, and double attack are also synergystic with one another, so someone who only has access to significant amounts of one or two of these mods will have far less of an improvement to their base dps than someone who has access to all three. For example, let's compare someone with a 60% attack speed increase to someone who has a 20% attack speed increase, 20% dps mod, and 20% chance of double attack. Using a baseline of x points of damage per swing and a delay of 1 second (ie, 1 swing per second)-60% haste yields x damage per swing and 1.6 swings per second, or 1.6x damage per second20% to each mod yields 1.2 (20% dps) * 1.2 (20% chance to attack twice) * x damage per swing * 1.2 swings per second, or 1.728x damage per secondIn other words, someone who has access to all three enhancement types gets more of a benefit due to the synergistic effect. Brawlers have extremely limtied access to double attack, and are therefore put at a disadvantage relative to other classes who have very minor restrictions associated with getting massive double attack mods.A bare fist acts like a 50-55ish DR 1 hander. 96% double attack at best makes this an ~100 DR weapon, without stat bonuses or procs. Sta-specced warrios can easily obtain weapons with ~75 DR (and in rarer cases weapons in the 80-92 range) and get 52-62% double attack while still enjoying stat bonuses and procs from the weapon and buckler. 52% double attack on a 75 DR weapon gives an effective 114 dr weapon. This effect sky rockets on the rarer 80+ dr 1-handers available.Couple this with base auto attack damage tables being made the same for all fighters (brawlers used to have a higher base table), and brawlers go from having an advantage to being at a relative disadvantage. Changing the str line so that brawlers can get a limited double attack (20-30%) when they have weapons equipped would help greatly.As far as aoe damage goes, we were never the best fighter for that - berzerkers and crusaders have always been better. Warriors and crusaders now have access to as much as a 40% chance to have their auto attack hit 4 targets. Brawlers can get a 16% proc that does 200-300 aoe damage. So long as the warrior/crusader has a decent weapon, they will do much more aoe damage off of auto attacks (not to mention procs). Brawlers have the fewest aoe abilities, so they will lag even further behind in aoe damage when arts and spells are consdidered in addition to auto attacks.In other words, brawlers are by no means the fighter single target dps kings these days due to a combination of buffs to other fighters (auto attack table changes) and weak or heavily-restricted AA abilities. A properly-played and specced warrior will, in most cases, put out comaprable or better dps than an equivalent brawler. The same goes for a shadowknight and even a few very-well played paladins. Compounding this, that same warrior/crusader will have more avoidance and mitigation in offensive stance against a raid mob than a comparable brawler in defensive stance.But brawlers have utility! Every fighter has a single target avoidance buff (and a shield user currently offers a better buff in a raid because they can stay offensive and still give more avoidance than a brawler who goes defensive). Brawlers have one group buff that gives essentially a 20% boost to melee auto attack and FD. Warriors and Crusaders have 2-3 group buffs each and have additional single target utility buffs. FD does not come close to matching these benefits.So here we are: dps no longer clearly better than other fighters due to restrictive AAs and base fighter table changes, shattered avoidance vs raid mobs that lets us tank lest year's content inefficiently while being bulldozed by this year's, and the least, yes the least, utility of all fighters.Yeah, brawlers are fine... edits: Typoes and corrected warrior double attack comparison for post LU36.

Prodigus

07-09-2007, 11:21 PM

Kaisoku@Mistmoore wrote: <blockquote><cite>Freliant wrote:</cite><blockquote>So a person is not allowed to comment without getting a personal attack... so be it:You can comment all you want, but when you start making wild claims and accusations, you are going to get burned. To those nit-pickers out there: No Flipping duh! 1) I know Monks are the only ones that have group FD, fall of the Phoenix... they ARE a brawler class.The problem is that you are saying that GROUP FD is why ALL BRAWLERS have utility in raids. Bruisers ARE a brawler class that DOESN'T get this utility. This is your error. 2) As for giving avoidance, if you didn't know mister I know every class, if the guardian GIVES the avoidance check buff to someone else, it is not him that is getting extra avoidance. He will get some extra parry, but it is NOTHING like if a monk give his avoidance check to the tank. Whenever his avoidance check fails, he has a 50% chance to use the monks avoidance. I want you to keep a straight face and say that any other fighter class has more avoidance than a monk. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that a monk having the highest avoidance and giving it to the MT is a really good thing (albeit very rare to see in raids cause they apparently prefer to give the tank more dps/hate so that the rest of the raid can do more dps).In order to give this Avoidance buff you HAVE to be in the same group. In a raid, that means you are taking up a spot in the MT group. Nevermind the fact that this will never happen, other tanks DO have just as high avoidance, and being that they have a higher UNCONTESTED avoidance, they are the better choice. Tower Shields and Kite Shields are giving more uncontested avoidance than what a Brawler in Defensive stance gives.Also, a Brawler HAS to be in Defensive stance to give this wee bit of uncontested avoidance. Whereas the Zerker or Crusader can give it just by equipping the shield. Then they can sit in Offensive stance and go to town. Hell, a Zerker can get AA's to have no avoidance drops for being in Offensive stance.. in the end, being able to do DPS better, hold aggro better, and give better UNCONTESTED avoidance than a Brawler in the same slot. 3) yeah... other classes have FD... and apparently you think everyone else's FD refreshes just as quickly as yours does. You see all those other classes with FD going into dungeons, making trains and then FDing in front of a named mob. Trying to kill a few and then FD again if things get bad... yep... all those other classes do that... NOT. You know as well as all those other classes that their FD is on a much more extended timer, and that it has a higher chance to fail than a brawlers' does.Wrong, other classes that have FD have it at 100% chance. SK FD other is 100%. Necro is 100%. Brigand/Swash AA FD is 100% and no AoE too. Ours needs a quick recast because it WILL fail. The only one that isn't 100% and long recast is the Tinkered item that ANYONE can get if they try.. and it's 99% (better than our best version mastered).. so not far off. Plus, why are we talking about killing heroic content? The problems with Brawlers is RAID CONTENT. Can we please get past this already? Please read the rest of the thread and understand that the problem is at the RAID level.FD in raids is extremely limited, to the point that it helps on ONE single named, and even that isn't a mandatory tactic. Other than that it can save having to respawn at the starting point if you can revive a healer and not die due to nearby epic adds.Pulling is best done with a pet pull, usually a temporary one (such as a cleric's hammer), and at worst the SK can force FD the healer so he doesn't die. Planeshifted conjuror pets make nice pullers too. Other than that, 99% of the time a MT can do the pulling without any hitches. 4) Pets being safer to pull mobs with is just a steaming pile of ... The only way that pet pulling is better than FD pulling is if you are in a zone with alot of room (to allow mobs to drop off their leashes). If mobs are close enogh to agro on a hit, and the zone respawns quickly, there is absolutely no better puller than a brawler with FD. Specially if you have Tsunami when pulling mobs without a big non-melee based alpha hit.Once again, talking about an ability that is MONK only. Meaning BRUISERS are NOT able to give this same utility, so what about them?Also, Tsunami has been horribly butchered to the point that it is no longer reliable. On top of that, Warriors get a better version of it in their Agi line final, meaning you can have the Zerker run and do the SAME THING but capable of taking the hits if needed.. not to mention tinkered FD at a better chance, or have the SK FD him.Honestly.. if you need to FD pull a named frequently enough to need the 10s recast of a Brawler, you are doing something wrong. 5) FD saving one group? ... lets see... try to read this slowly... so it doesn't go over your head: some raid zones can only be done once... if you die and revive you will be outside the raid zone... other zones have very fast respawn timer, and a complete whipe means you have to start the zone from the begining. Hence, having FD, and specifically having the ability to FD an entire group is amazing for those raids. And in normal groups, you are telling me that its not a wanted utility? A warlock does an aoe and agroes 20+ groups around the zone and group FD is not a good utility? O please.All you need is one person to start rezzing in situations like that. Also, how does this help the BRUISER, once again? We are talking about BRAWLERS needing help.. which means you still haven't explained how a BRUISER brings this utility.A Necro can FD at 100% chance AND can rez.. without needing any help from an outside source. An SK can FD the healer before they get killed. A Rogue can FD and not get killed by the AoEs from the rampaging epics as they finish off the rest.The Monk Group FD isn't even guaranteed for everyone in the group... it's not a guaranteed 6 people still alive. In practice, and in my own personal experience... at least a couple people end up eating it anyways. Group FD is on a lower FD chance than the Monk's personal FD.So really... how is this some unique ability that is absolutely required compared to what others bring to the raid? 6) Other classes doing the same things you do? Well, too bad, we all have classes that do things our classes do, even if not to the same extent. The fact is, you do have some utility, even if some other classes can do it better.If everyone can do everything you can do and better, then there is no point to having you there over anyone else.Your point would be valid if our abilities were needed enough, or the package of abilities were unique enough to warrant wanting you there. But that's simply not the case.Most of the things you've mentioned are entirely unneeded to begin with, withe the rest being well covered by others giving a LOT more in other departments (debuffing, DPS, tanking). 7) Classes you rival in DPS: Dirges, Troubadors, All other fighters (don't give me that "guardians and zerkers out-dps me" *reason*, you know you pump out more dps than they do), All healers, illusionists and coercers (that do not have a corpse candle pet), and in the right setup, brawlers can pump out more consistant dps than some of the other classes I have mentioned. During our guild raids our bruisers rarely drop under 1.2k dps and I have seen his dps top at around 1.8k. Granted this is in zones like Labs and Lyceum, but its still raid mobs in raid zones.Bards can do more than 1.2k DPS AND pump everyone's DPS in the group by hundreds at the same time. Brawlers give a smidgen of Haste or DPS, with diminished returns ending up giving very little overall, so their DPS is about all they give to a raid. Please go read some of the other Fighter forums and see for yourself how much they can parse. I'm sorry if your non-DPS spec'd, KoS geared Fighters aren't pulling down stupid amounts of DPS, but to anyone that even tries a little at the end game, they can do just as much DPS as a Brawler and even more if it's a group encounter.Illusionists consistantly pull down 2-2.5k dps.. so not sure where you are getting your numbers there. Coercers are definitely lower, but they tend to be spec'd for MT groups and pump out an unreal amount of utility (power management, hate management, crowd control even in epic fights, healer buffing, etc). 1k parses from Coercers is par for the course considering they basically make a raid happen.And really.. Labs and Lyceum? Are we still stuck on the previous expansion here? I'm not just talking about you, there's been a rash of posts lately where people are making "claims" about Brawlers and citing examples of the last expansion.If your sum total experience with brawlers is in raids that can be two grouped with today's gear... that would be why you don't understand what the problem is. I am thinking the only reason Lyandro stated "specially brawlers" is because they have been screaming the loudest (and as we all know the squeaky wheel gets the grease). IMO the SK is really the one that needs the most loving out of all the fighter classes... heck out of all the melee classes period. Just remember what you are getting for all your complaining. Whenever a class is beefed up in one respect, they are downgraded in a few others to "compensate", so most probably you are asking for your end all nerf that will make everyone quit being a brawler altogether. As for getting a bruiser or monk to raiding standing... I pass... too many fighters in a raid spoils it.There needs to be more reasons for Fighters to be on a raid. I for one will welcome a change for ALL fighters. However, this will most likely give Brawlers much needed help because unlike every other fighter, THEY WON'T EVER BE TANKING. Not until some kind of change is made to their survivability and aggro control... but even then, Tower of Stone and other buffs will make Guardians preferred... If you can't see why it's an imbalance to have zero "need" for multiple fighters in a raid, then I really can't help you. We are talking about alienating a quarter of the player base classes on a significant portion of end game content. More fighter need, the better. To the poster that wants me to focus on my own class *coughnerrilcough*, I have... and I am happy with how I am setup. I went down the int line and have the AoE position reducer AA, and I couldn't be happier. I can dump as much dps as I want, and I know I have an instant "he did it" button if I ever get agro. I am ussually number 2 parser on my guild zone wide and I am ussually placed in any off group without deagro toons (like troub) or even a good fury to give me vim and such... heck, I ussually just buff up some fighter classes. I am happy with my class, and I have nothing to complain about. Seeing other people complain about a class that I have already seen is doing great though is really a peave of mine. But, hey, if you don't like your class, maybe you should roll another one. Might I suggest a wizard ^_^... unless you are gonna spend all your day on the forums complaining why you get agro when you nuke.. then stay out of the class I play please. You are the one making extremely opposing claims about a class you admit to having no experience playing. Walk a mile in my shoes before you start saying your opinions like they are fact. WE have played the Brawler class, and have eeked out as much as possible from it. When our alts are being asked to be played on raids over our mains because there is more reason for them, we are experiencing firsthand the problems we talk about. And by the way... this isn't a class envy thread, or "nerf the other classes" thread. I'm sure 99% of the Brawlers here have multiple characters they play. However, that doesn't mean we'll sit around with a class sitting in an obvious imbalance and not say anything. The Devs want Feedback, they want to make the game better, well here it is.. our feedback. Try not to [I cannot control my vocabulary] all over it without doing your research. </blockquote> </blockquote> +1 good points. good reading. Couldn't agree more.

Nerill

07-10-2007, 04:11 AM

<cite>Bladewind wrote:</cite><blockquote>So here we are: dps no longer clearly better than other fighters due to restrictive AAs and base fighter table changes, shattered avoidance vs raid mobs that lets us tank lest year's content inefficiently while being bulldozed by this year's, and the least, yes the least, utility of all fighters.</blockquote>For those Wizards who are too lazy to actually read this thread ( and anyone else for that matter ), just read the above sentence. That sums up our problem(s). The above is fact. There is no need to debate, argue, disagree, etc. The above statement is fact. I stake my children's life on it. They are 14 and 5 years old and if the above statement is a lie then may they die and burn in he** forever. GOT IT ?!?!?!?!?! Get it through your thick skull(s) !

Oakum

07-10-2007, 11:10 AM

Banzai@Unrest wrote: <blockquote><cite>Bladewind wrote:</cite><blockquote>So here we are: dps no longer clearly better than other fighters due to restrictive AAs and base fighter table changes, shattered avoidance vs raid mobs that lets us tank lest year's content inefficiently while being bulldozed by this year's, and the least, yes the least, utility of all fighters.</blockquote>For those Wizards who are too lazy to actually read this thread ( and anyone else for that matter ), just read the above sentence. That sums up our problem(s). The above is fact. There is no need to debate, argue, disagree, etc. The above statement is fact. I stake my children's life on it. They are 14 and 5 years old and if the above statement is a lie then may they die and burn in he** forever. GOT IT ?!?!?!?!?! Get it through your thick skull(s) ! </blockquote>I got but then I always did, lol. Reminds me of being a druid, well at least a warden. We wear leather too and are supposed to be able to out DPS all other healer classes but fury but thats not the case. Druids have it better then brawlers though. At least the fury class is where they are supposed to be even if wardens are only wanted because we are slightly more power efficient than other healers so the groups have less down time between pulls. Getting off topic here. I hope they fix brawlers.

Timaarit

07-10-2007, 12:31 PM

Freliant wrote: <blockquote> Its comments like this that made me stop trying. If you want a debate, you need to have more than just: my point is right, and no other point is valid attitude. </blockquote>To be able to debate, you need to know what you are talking about. We are talking about end game raiding. You already admitted that your guild is not doing that. So there can be no debate with you in this matter.

Nerill

07-11-2007, 02:00 AM

Thank you for your support, Oakum. I have a lv. 70 Warden as well and routinely I am asked to play him whenever our Raid is short healers. <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> I like my Warden. I just prefer my Monk and wish so much that the Devs will give both Brawler classes the help they need in all 3 areas so that we are actually an asset to have on raids.

Siclone

07-11-2007, 10:50 AM

Kaoru@Blackburrow wrote: <blockquote><cite>Siclone wrote:</cite><blockquote>I don't get why brawlers are always complaining. I did not read all these pages, but they are such a fun class to play, they pump out some good dps and can tank and have fd. the brawler in our raid tanks kos raid zones and is on the top 5 of the parse. I don't get why all the griping </blockquote>I suggest you read all the pages first, then post in a thread only after then. If your guild Monk tanks a KOS zone and is top 5 on the parse, I suggest you find another guild cause no one is doing their job, or then they are lowering their dps as to not pull aggro. KOS zones should hardly even considered t7 zones since they have been nerfed to hell and back. If you want to understand what is going on, again go back and read from the beginning. What I will agree with you on is that we are a fun class to play. I love my monk and it is because of this that I want to see the needed changes made. </blockquote>I did look at the first pages, and I got nothing against brawlers, played one to 30 once it was fun and supper easy and could solo great I dont know about all the details, but as a 3rd party observer of the class, seems just the opposite of what everyone is saying. Bruiser is up over 1500 dps well over any other fighter,,,,he is a great off tank,,,he has great little tricks and tools,,,,like drag and fd...I mean, I know you people believe what your saying....they just lack an AE argo, and maybe they should due to their flexibility to full both tank and dps roles.

Freliant

07-11-2007, 11:03 AM

<cite>Timaarit wrote:</cite><blockquote>Freliant wrote: <blockquote>Its comments like this that made me stop trying. If you want a debate, you need to have more than just: my point is right, and no other point is valid attitude. </blockquote>To be able to debate, you need to know what you are talking about. We are talking about end game raiding. You already admitted that your guild is not doing that. So there can be no debate with you in this matter. </blockquote>Bah, you made me take my gloves off you ***i hate moderating my language to speak with you**. OK, first of, this post was ORIGINALLY meant to complain about how LU36 didn't upgrade brawlers to what THEY THINK should be their rights. Once enough people complained that brawlers were ok, THAT'S when the posters on this thread started saying it is because brawlers are not a usefull class in EoF raid content.That is the freaking extent of the post: Brawlers - "Wah! I didn't become more usefull in EoF Raids with LU36 like other classes did!" Forgive me brawlers that argued this in a gentleman like manner, its not meant as a reflection of your points. The end argument of the thread, not as the original poster intended, but as what it turned into, is that EoF raiding brawlers did not get what they thought they deserved. My point, on the other hand, was graciously validated by all the other brawlers that have commented, and that is: Brawlers are not broken, and can do very well in solo, heroic content, group content and minor raids. So suck it up and stop insulting other posters, unless you want some of it back.

Madmoon

07-11-2007, 11:22 AM

Siclone, it's true that brawlers are pretty well set, and that played properly with an educated raid, can raid to an extent. I raid, and have no issues, BUT I am sought after because I am either a) known or b) filling a slot, not because I can provide either tanking or DPS on a raid. We are a fighter that simply withers under direct attack of most Epics. We are a fighter that cannot maintain agro - in fact, one AA line helps us shed agro <img src="/smilies/385970365b8ed7503b4294502a458efa.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> So, what any platehead does, we cannot because our avoidance is virtually meaningless with raid content and our ability to keep a monster focused on us is a very capricious and dangerous one. As far as our DPS, we can out-perform most other fighters, regularly, but we are not a DPS class. A similarly equipped and played mage or scout will provide much more for the raid, in DPS and often utility. Where we succeed, where we contribute, we do so despite our limitations, not because of our assets. Many brawlers feel we cannot contribute to raids as well as most other classes and would like to see us also have an asset that is as sought after as most other classes. I don't feel we are broken or cannot raid, but for people who have reached the "end" of the game, and all that is out there is raid content, the options are more limited than many other classes.

Couching

07-11-2007, 11:45 AM

<cite>Siclone wrote:</cite><blockquote>I did look at the first pages, and I got nothing against brawlers, played one to 30 once it was fun and supper easy and could solo great I dont know about all the details, but as a 3rd party observer of the class, seems just the opposite of what everyone is saying. Bruiser is up over 1500 dps well over any other fighter,,,,he is a great off tank,,,he has great little tricks and tools,,,,like drag and fd...I mean, I know you people believe what your saying....they just lack an AE argo, and maybe they should due to their flexibility to full both tank and dps roles. </blockquote>No, other fighters will do more than brawler in the same group. In your example, if a brawler can deal 1.5k with group buff, zerker or sk can hit 2k easily. Why? It's about mechanism rather than player skills. If you check brawler carefully and compare with war tree, you will see there is a major drawback on brawler tree. There is less progression for brawler! What does it mean? For example, war tree has 4% critical hit chances than brawler tree. In other words, the better weapon war has, the larger damage war will ahead of brawler. For example, war/crusader have 40% frontal aoe from main hand weapon. We have only 16% and it's a fixed damage proc rather than scaling with weapon. The average swing of brimstone hammer on my guild zerker is 1.6k with coercer and dirge buff and my average aoe proc is only 440. See how unbalance it is? Even our aoe can hit single target, it won't compensate the big gap since their aoe is 2.5 times more than ours. Not to say there are more group encounter than single encounters in raids. Moreover, average hit of their aoe is 4 times more than brawler aoe. You can imagine when they get fabled weapons in Rok, their average aoe hit will be 5 or even 6 times than us. For tanking, it's so ridiculous that brawler as avoidance tank has less uncontested avoidance than mitigation tanks. How could it be right? We have less mitigations, less uncontested avoidance and less agro control and you called us great off tank? LOL. The plate tanks are god like tank ! Devs really need to address uncontested avoidance for brawler since most tanks no matter MT or OT in raids are in offensive stances. Uncontested avoidance on plate tank is determined by shield rather than their stance. Brawler can't use shield and we have ZERO uncontested avoidance in offensive stance. See the problem here? Plate tanks have triple advantages over brawler in tanking on more mitigations, more uncontested avoidance and better aggro control.

Bladewind

07-11-2007, 11:48 AM

<cite>Madmoon wrote:</cite><blockquote>Siclone, it's true that brawlers are pretty well set, and that played properly with an educated raid, can raid to an extent. I raid, and have no issues, BUT I am sought after because I am either a) known or b) filling a slot, not because I can provide either tanking or DPS on a raid. We are a fighter that simply withers under direct attack of most Epics. We are a fighter that cannot maintain agro - in fact, one AA line helps us shed agro <img src="/smilies/385970365b8ed7503b4294502a458efa.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> So, what any platehead does, we cannot because our avoidance is virtually meaningless with raid content and our ability to keep a monster focused on us is a very capricious and dangerous one. As far as our DPS, we can out-perform most other fighters, regularly, but we are not a DPS class. A similarly equipped and played mage or scout will provide much more for the raid, in DPS and often utility. Where we succeed, where we contribute, we do so despite our limitations, not because of our assets. Many brawlers feel we cannot contribute to raids as well as most other classes and would like to see us also have an asset that is as sought after as most other classes. I don't feel we are broken or cannot raid, but for people who have reached the "end" of the game, and all that is out there is raid content, the options are more limited than many other classes.</blockquote> Right, it isn't like I do not go on raids, but I bust my hump for mediocre results whether I am tanking (thank you ultra low uncontested avoidance) or dpsing (thank you mostly useless or overly-restrictive AAs). I compare that with my brigand who offers massive debuffs that boost the entire raid's dps, personal dps that is about 40-50% better than my brawler, and, sadly, a near comaprable general tanking ability (yes the brawler tanks better, but not by much - and he is geared/adorned for tanking while the brig is not). You captured the essence of the brawler raiding experience when you wrote that we contribute despite our limitations. Squeezing every bit you can out of your gear and abilities to be mediocre is very frustrating.

Oakum

07-11-2007, 12:26 PM

Banzai@Unrest wrote: <blockquote>Thank you for your support, Oakum. I have a lv. 70 Warden as well and routinely I am asked to play him whenever our Raid is short healers. <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> I like my Warden. I just prefer my Monk and wish so much that the Devs will give both Brawler classes the help they need in all 3 areas so that we are actually an asset to have on raids. </blockquote>Actually when it comes to the other areas like the utility of pets and buffs/debuffs druids do not compare to cleric or shaman either so we are down in 3 areas if you too if you want to look at it that way. Myself, I always figured that having the lesser buffs, debuffs, pet utility, and armor was the price we paid for supposedly being able to always out dps clerics and shaman. Just like some brawlers think the same way about their dps compared to tanking ability.

Mimnousa

07-11-2007, 01:43 PM

Freliant frankly you havent seen the end game EOF differnce. Please ask any EOF ready raiding force about the use of brawlers on raids and their need. Raid forces hit EOF and the gear rockets everyone up but the brawlers so the already existing gap in KOS gets bigger and bigger as the raid force advances. I can give a valid reason for the other 22 classes each of why they have EOF raid use. I dont get why for the life of me why brawlers are the one exception class. Here is the facts plain and simple lets start with the "tank classes"1 Brawlers are THE worst Raid tanks hands down2 Brawlers bring the least ammount of group buffs to a group3 Brawlers are the worst at agro managment espically groups4 The few debuffs a Brawler have are useless against epics. (mostly stuns)We can sit here and argue about what does more as of dps but really its all to close to make any sort of difference. Basically put the brawlers are the bottom feeders of the tank classes and are NOT on par with the other classes. Now lets look at a few other things comparsion to other classes as SOE has boxed out of any form of raid tanking.1 Compared to bards...... More dps yes but one bard groups buffs much much much more desired then a monks dps and buffs.2 Compared to rogues..... May get close to doing similar dps to a utility spec brigand but we lose huge ground to dps specs in this class. And they both debuff the mob immensely so they have a ton more raid value. 3 Compared to preadators....... We cant even come close to touching their dps so that is a washHealers we really can't argue the point as only monk have a heal other ability and its more an emergency then anything and in my humble opinion 2 of each healer class ((2 shaman 2 druids and 2 clerics) are ideal. I can make a point for having every one of their classes on the raid.Now comparsion to the other mage classes. As Soe boxed us into a dps/buff/debuff role this has to be considered too.1 Compared to Pet classes.......... Brawlers lose out huge on dps and the mana regen items plus Coth on a conjie and fd/rez on a necro make this a much much more desired class.2 Compared to sorercers.......... Brawlers cant even come close to touching their dps and they both can do other things as of debuffs3 Mezzers...... Illusionists can out dps a brawler if speced right and even then the buffs and mana battery they bring to the raid force is a NEED. Also being able to Mez heroic adds in raid zones is a huge huge ability.This is the point brawlers are trying to make. We are the only class that can be left out of a raid and no one will notice. I have yet to see in open channel a raid force looking for a brawler to fill a need role. Every other class has a need in a raids beside brawlers. And untill SOE fixes this us brawlers have every right to grip and pleade our case as we dont deserve to be left out or told to roll a dirge or healer if we want to raid. I as a monk would give up what little tanking ability i had to build myself through aa's into a true either dps spec or buff debuff spec with a sacrfice to our avoidance/mit/agro control. And yes i am bringing up a rogue because i feel that this problem is never going to be fixed and shelf my monk.

Freliant

07-11-2007, 01:55 PM

At the risk of being repetitive... Brawlers are NOT broken when it comes to solo, heroic, group and minor (KoS) raid content. The point of this entire thread is that brawlers want to be more usefull in EoF T7 raids. I have said this quite a few times so far, but everyone keeps replying as if I said Brawlers are good all around... EoF raid content is hard.. nay, very hard, but the changes that have been requested are not exactly gonna bode well with the rest of the game content. If a brawler is made to tank as well as a guardian, then why even roll a guardian when you can have more dps with a brawler and still tank just as good? If a brawler can aoe and dps more than a zerker, why even have a zerker when all you need is a monk... granted maybe a little more utility is needed, but then again, it has to not invalidate the job that the other classes are already doing. The brawler changes, if any, should be something unique to T7 EoF raids and not something that can spill into the other areas of game play, and they shouldn't be something mandatory either, or you will see some raids that just can get anywhere if they don't have a specific class.

DeathEater024

07-11-2007, 02:54 PM

I was really disapointed with the no change I was kinda hoping they would leave the line the way it was but just remove the unarmed part of it. That would have been a great move. But the way it is now was definatly better then giving us wepons and killing our dps.

Bladewind

07-11-2007, 02:56 PM

<cite>Freliant wrote:</cite><blockquote>At the risk of being repetitive... Brawlers are NOT broken when it comes to solo, heroic, group and minor (KoS) raid content. The point of this entire thread is that brawlers want to be more usefull in EoF T7 raids. I have said this quite a few times so far, but everyone keeps replying as if I said Brawlers are good all around... EoF raid content is hard.. nay, very hard, but the changes that have been requested are not exactly gonna bode well with the rest of the game content. If a brawler is made to tank as well as a guardian, then why even roll a guardian when you can have more dps with a brawler and still tank just as good? If a brawler can aoe and dps more than a zerker, why even have a zerker when all you need is a monk... granted maybe a little more utility is needed, but then again, it has to not invalidate the job that the other classes are already doing. The brawler changes, if any, should be something unique to T7 EoF raids and not something that can spill into the other areas of game play, and they shouldn't be something mandatory either, or you will see some raids that just can get anywhere if they don't have a specific class.</blockquote> Even if we are given the most uncontested avoidance (the tanking fix we want), a guardian has many more tanking tools (defensive buffs and emergency aggro buffs) than we do. Why should any (or all four for that matter) plate tanks have higher avoidance than avoidance tanks? If avodiance tanks have the least avoidance (between 1/3 and 1/2 effectively), then should mitigation tanks have the least mitigation (say, half that of a brawler)? Sounds silly, yeah? We aren't asking to be made better than other classes, just to be fixed. There is no reason that an avoidance tank should half the avoidance of a plate tank against epic mobs. Especially since a plate tank can have that avoidance advantage in any stance, while a brawler has to be in defensive to get any effective avoidance at all. Uncontested avoidance does not come into play at all when soloing, and only in very limited cases when grouping. Fixing uncontested avoidance would only effect the raiding sphere.We are asking for the same aoe AA choice that all four other tanks get. We already have the weakest class aoe ability, so an aoe spec zerker will still out aoe dps an aoe spec brawler even if we are given 40% multi attack. For whatever reason, brawlers are stuck with AA choices that are static (ie, a fixed low damage, low % chance proc), while other tanks are given AAs that they can gain increased benefits from as they gain better equipment (high prc chance multi atatck based off weapon damage). That sucks.The same argument goes for double attack. Ours is limited to bare hands, which means we lose serious stat and proc bonuses. On top of that, the bare hand is a pretty crappy weapon (dr ~50 1 hander at lvl 70, worse than treasured damage). Any other class with a double attack line can keep getting double attack benefits as they upgrade their weapons. Once again, brawlers have no progression/upgrade option while everyone else does.So, we are completely hamstrung when tanking current epic content due to flawed game mechanics. Our dps AAs do not benefit us much or at all through equipment upgrades forcing us into a dps plateau. While we plateau, all other fighters are able to equal or eclipse us because their dps AAs modify their equipped weapon damage rather than just give fixed number bonuses. The cherry on top is that we have by far the least utility of all fighters. Seriously, when was the last time you saw someone asking for a brawler to fill a raid slot? When was the last time you were on a raid where someone said "Sorry, we can't do this without a brawler?" Never.By clearing only KoS content and seeing brawlers do relatively well, you get a very incomplete picture. The problem is that the decent brawler dps plateaus while other classes get massive boosts from weapon upgrades (with corresponding improved AA effects), and the disparity in uncontested avoidance becomes blatantly apparant because debuffers can no longer completely marginalize the offensive bonuses that EoF raid mobs have relative to KoS raid mobs. My avoidance in a KoS raid, once a mob is debuffed, is usually effectively 60% or so, so I can still tank pretty well. Against eof content with the same debuffers helping me, my avoidance plummets to 20-30%. A plate tank sees a similar reduction in their contested avoidance, but since a much greater portion of their avoidance in uncontested, they end up going from ~60% vs kos to ~40% vs eof. Brawlers should *always* have the most avoidance. It blows my mind that a plate tank in offensive stance can have double the avodiance of a brawler in defensive stance.No one is aksing to be made superior to others or to for others to be nerfed; we are asking to be fixed. Plateauing on dps where all other fighters do not stinks. Being completely hamstrung by poorly-implemented avodiance mechanics also stinks. Having the least utility of all fighters with no other area to excel stinks, too.

Choombatta

07-11-2007, 05:02 PM

Just courious.But by double the avoidance and half the mitigation........Are you saying that plate tanks have ( just throwing numbers out ) 5000 avoidance and brawlers have 2500 avoidance? Are you saying that plate tanks have 60% avoidance and brawlers have 30% avoidance?Then by the same standards.........Are you saying Plate tanks have 5000 mitigation and brawlers have 2500 mitigation?Are you saying Plate tanks have 60% mitigation and brawlers only have 30% mitigation?Also, shield block is a very far cry from the major portion of plate tanks avoidance. It is uncontested, yes, but it is also, at most, only 25% of a plate tanks avoidance. Lastly, while I completely respect what you are trying to say Bladewind, unfortunately there are quite a few brawlers that ARE asking to be made the best tank, period. When people use phrases like "tank better then a guardian" and "T1 DPS" they are asking to be made better then all the other fighters, they are not asking for balance.

Asif

07-11-2007, 05:17 PM

Bards can do more than 1.2k DPS AND pump everyone's DPS in the group by hundreds at the same time!!!!!Well i dont agree with your numbers there at all i do know for a fact my wife who is a 70 bruiser and a DAM good one has to work her butt off in raids and will more often than not even make the parse. <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />I do think brawlers need more help in the raiding end of things they rock at solo and group but i know she (brawlers) just CANT tank the big bosses she gets eaten alive!!But like she told me her class rocked TILL she started raiding then it went down hill for her.( Still loves to raid tho)For her and all brawlers there is not a real spot thats defined for them in raids unlike for my trouby which is just wrong i feel you tease them for 70 lvs where they rock then what are they to do ?

Couching

07-11-2007, 05:31 PM

<cite>Choombatta wrote:</cite><blockquote>Just courious.But by double the avoidance and half the mitigation........Are you saying that plate tanks have ( just throwing numbers out ) 5000 avoidance and brawlers have 2500 avoidance? Are you saying that plate tanks have 60% avoidance and brawlers have 30% avoidance?Then by the same standards.........Are you saying Plate tanks have 5000 mitigation and brawlers have 2500 mitigation?Are you saying Plate tanks have 60% mitigation and brawlers only have 30% mitigation?Also, shield block is a very far cry from the major portion of plate tanks avoidance. It is uncontested, yes, but it is also, at most, only 25% of a plate tanks avoidance. Lastly, while I completely respect what you are trying to say Bladewind, unfortunately there are quite a few brawlers that ARE asking to be made the best tank, period. When people use phrases like "tank better then a guardian" and "T1 DPS" they are asking to be made better then all the other fighters, they are not asking for balance.</blockquote>First, plate tank can hit 70% or even 75% avoidance with top end gears and buffs in raid. Though, that number is a mix of contested and uncontested avoidance. While fighting orange mob, uncontested avoidance plays major role in avoidance checking. Plate tank has better uncontested avoidance with tower shield than brawler in defensive stance. Second, brawler has to be in defensive stance to get uncontested avoidance. Otherwise, we have ZERO uncontested avoidance in offensive stance. Though, for plate tank, no matter they are in offensive stance or defensive stance, they have uncontested avoidance from their shield. Third, in most raids, plate tank as MT or OT are in offensive stance if your guild didn't suck. Yes, you can tank avatar with offensive stance. Actually, there isn't worthy to use defensive stance for plate. For example, plate tanks in my guild have 62%-63% mitigation with healer buff in offensive stance and around 60% avoidance. They will be 64%-65% mitigation and 70% avoidance in defensive stance. However, the extra 10% avoidance and 2% mitigation is less useful than extra dmg/hate generate from offensive stance. Moreover, they can still enjoy the most useful part of avoidance, uncontested avoidance, in offensive stance while fighting orange mobs. Though, it's a totally different story for brawler. For me, pretty well geared and focus on mitigation, I have about 52% mitigation and 62% avoidance with group buff in offensive stance. Though, contest avoidance didn't mean anything while fighting orange epic mob. I have ZERO uncontested avoidance. I have to be in defensive stance to get 16% uncontested stance. That's really unreasonable and unfair for brawler. (I have about 57% mitigation and 72% avoidance in defensive stance). Actually, I dont use defensive stance since it's harder to hold mobs on me. It's same for every fighter that it's harder to hold mobs on you in defensive stance. Why should a plate tank can have better uncontested avoidance than avoidance tank? Give me a reason ! Currently, brawler has 3 major disadvantage on tanking comparing to plate tank. Less mitigation, less uncontested avoidance and less aggro control. Don't try to call us great tank or we can tank on par with guardian. It doesn't make any sense. It's totally against game mechanism. For dps, enough said, I have shown game mechanism many times. Also, it's verified by top end guardians/zerker that they did more in end games.

Bladewind

07-11-2007, 05:39 PM

<cite>Choombatta wrote:</cite><blockquote>Just courious.But by double the avoidance and half the mitigation........Are you saying that plate tanks have ( just throwing numbers out ) 5000 avoidance and brawlers have 2500 avoidance? Are you saying that plate tanks have 60% avoidance and brawlers have 30% avoidance?Then by the same standards.........Are you saying Plate tanks have 5000 mitigation and brawlers have 2500 mitigation?Are you saying Plate tanks have 60% mitigation and brawlers only have 30% mitigation?Also, shield block is a very far cry from the major portion of plate tanks avoidance. It is uncontested, yes, but it is also, at most, only 25% of a plate tanks avoidance. Lastly, while I completely respect what you are trying to say Bladewind, unfortunately there are quite a few brawlers that ARE asking to be made the best tank, period. When people use phrases like "tank better then a guardian" and "T1 DPS" they are asking to be made better then all the other fighters, they are not asking for balance.</blockquote>I'm talking about uncontested avoidance (avoidance that ignores mob 'to hit' bonuses).The only avoidance that is uncontested is anything a player has in block (ie, shield factor, AA block bonuses, and block adornments) and a portion of the delfection in brawler defensive (12% deflection uncontested) and mixed (6% uncontested) stances. So, a plate tank with a solid shield and block benefits, will have 25% or so uncontested avoidance in any stance (defensive or offensive) when they have a shield equipped. A brawler will have 12% uncontested in defensive only (or 6% in mixed stance). All contested aovidance is cut to shreds by eof mob offensive bonuses, resulting in a plate tank enjoying a massive avoidance benefit over brawlers (this is very, very wrong). Not only do brawlers have very limtied uncontested avodiance from the get go, but they also cannot improve it through AAs or equipment upgrades. The simple balancing solution that we are asking for is to make all of our deflection uncontested (~35% avoid, fyi). That would make us the kings of avoidance that we should be in the raid sphere, just like we are in the solo and group spheres.As far as people wanting to be the best tank or t1 dps, they are far fewer then the mainstream brawlers who recognize the need for class balance and just want to be fixed. To me, the problem seems to always go back to progression where brawler benefits are static while other fighters have benefits that depend on equipment quality. This forces brawlers into a performance plateau where others can keep improving their performance at a much faster rate given similar quality upgrades. You see this same hinderance with warrior/crusader multi-attack vs the static brawler aoe proc, double attack restricted to no weapons vs double attack that modifies any weapon, uncontested avoidance tied to a stance vs tied to equipment, etc...

Choombatta

07-11-2007, 06:24 PM

So brawlers DO get uncontested avoidance when in defensive stance?So that does give brawlers an avenue to get uncontested avoidance and gives each person a choice of using it or not. Sony gave you the ability, it is up to you to use it or not.Other fighters have to make the same choice.Sure, alot of fighters tank in offensive, and it appears the majority of guardians prefer the buckler spec for DPS in addition with offensive stance.That does not mean Guardians MUST use buckler spec and offensive stance, it means alot choose to.I prefer to tank in defensive stance personally, as I get the bonus to mitigation without losing the attack skills ( took final ability in WIS line ) plus it ups my aggression, thereby making my taunts resisted less.Look, I am not saying Monks and Bruisers do not need something extra, but the "sky is falling" claims of some of the more vocal brawler players is pure nonsense. ( i.e. the claims in the other similar threads saying guardian MTs always out parse brawlers. Pure bullocks )

Bladewind

07-11-2007, 07:28 PM

<cite>Choombatta wrote:</cite><blockquote>So brawlers DO get uncontested avoidance when in defensive stance? Yes, 1/2 to 1/3 of what a plate tank gets in ANY stance.So that does give brawlers an avenue to get uncontested avoidance and gives each person a choice of using it or not. Sony gave you the ability, it is up to you to use it or not. I do. Too bad it is 1/2 at best what a lumbering plate tank gets. Does that really seem fair?Other fighters have to make the same choice. No, other fighters can use a shield in any stance.Sure, alot of fighters tank in offensive, and it appears the majority of guardians prefer the buckler spec for DPS in addition with offensive stance. It must be nice to have a choice. Brawlers are forced into defensive to get half or less the avoidance a plate tank enjoys.That does not mean Guardians MUST use buckler spec and offensive stance, it means alot choose to. I prefer to tank in defensive stance personally, as I get the bonus to mitigation without losing the attack skills ( took final ability in WIS line ) plus it ups my aggression, thereby making my taunts resisted less. I wish I had a choice like that.Look, I am not saying Monks and Bruisers do not need something extra, but the "sky is falling" claims of some of the more vocal brawler players is pure nonsense. ( i.e. the claims in the other similar threads saying guardian MTs always out parse brawlers. Pure bullocks )At the high end, a good guardian MT will outparse a brawler MT. This is because tthe guardian can go buckler/wis, and tank in offensive stance while enjoying 62% double attack (tied to their fabled weapon), to hit bonuses, and more avoidance than a brawler in defensive stance. At lower levels, a brawler MT will put out more damage, but the gaurdian's ability to do damage while tanking increases exponentially faster with equipment upgrade relative to a brawler.</blockquote>OK, here is the big problem with avoidance... Brawlers are avodiance tanks - ie, avoidance is how we manage incoming damage. Plate tanks are mitigation tanks. Soaking damage is their primary means of managing incoming damage.In a heroic scenario, all avoidance types work relatively well. The value you see on your character sheet is pretty-much what you get. However, when you face a typical eof raid mob, all contested avoidance types are reduced to about 10% (at best) of their normal values. So, a brawler with 12% base uncontested gets a whopping 5-6% more from their contested (usually 50-60%), for a total of ~17-20% effective avoidance. A plate tank who has 25-30% from their shield/block bonuses and another 40-50% (gives a contribution of about 5%) from their other avoidance types has about 30-35% vs eof raid mobs.Why do I, as an avoidance tank, get 12% uncontested avoidance (and only if I am in defensive) where a mitigation tank gets 20-30% depending on the gear, AAs, and adornments they choose in ANY stance? Do you see the glaring disparity? Let me spell it out - Plate tanks get more uncontested avoidance (double to almost triple) than a brawler. This is why brawlers fold against raid mobs - we get hit 3+ times for a plate tank's every 2. Plate tanks have their traditonal higher mitigation on top of this, so they are hit less often and take less damage per hit. Avoidance tanks having the lowest avoidance is a broken mechanic - plain and simple.A brawler having half of the avodiance as a plate tank in a raid setting is just as ridiculous as a plate tank having half the mitigation of a brawler in raid setting. If the shoe was on the other foot, you and every other fighter in plate would be screaming bloody murder. The fact that you can get that same uncontested avoidance in any stance while a brawler has to stay defensive to get their relative pittance is naught but salt in the wound.I hope this clarifies the argument. I never claimed that brawlers had zero uncontested avoidance, but rather that it is pretty stupid that they have half or less than a plate tank. My bithcing about being forced into defensive relative to a plate tank enjoying their uncontested in any stance was meant to hammer the point home of how broken the system is.

Couching

07-11-2007, 07:54 PM

<cite>Choombatta wrote:</cite><blockquote>So brawlers DO get uncontested avoidance when in defensive stance?So that does give brawlers an avenue to get uncontested avoidance and gives each person a choice of using it or not. Sony gave you the ability, it is up to you to use it or not.Other fighters have to make the same choice.Sure, alot of fighters tank in offensive, and it appears the majority of guardians prefer the buckler spec for DPS in addition with offensive stance.That does not mean Guardians MUST use buckler spec and offensive stance, it means alot choose to.I prefer to tank in defensive stance personally, as I get the bonus to mitigation without losing the attack skills ( took final ability in WIS line ) plus it ups my aggression, thereby making my taunts resisted less.Look, I am not saying Monks and Bruisers do not need something extra, but the "sky is falling" claims of some of the more vocal brawler players is pure nonsense. ( i.e. the claims in the other similar threads saying guardian MTs always out parse brawlers. Pure bullocks )</blockquote>No, we dont have choice since even in defensive stance, we have less uncontested avoidance not to say we have ZERO in offensive stance. You need to understand brawler are avoidance tank and plate fighters are mitigation tank. I bet every mitigation tank will start screaming if brawler has mitigation higher than plate tank in every sec in this game. Why? Because it shouldn't happen. When you choose to be a mitigation tank, it means you should have less (uncontested) avoidance than a avoidance tank. How hard to understand it? PS: if you can't out parse brawler with same level gears, it's just bcz you suck. There is no excuse since you SHOULD deal more damages by current design. There is no excuse that you can't. End of the story. I have listed game mechanism. If you disagree..correct me rather than your lame personal raid experience. PS2: Only noob guardian would relay his taunt to hold aggro. It's stated many times in guardian forum. /shrug

tt66

07-11-2007, 08:40 PM

<cite>Freliant wrote:</cite><blockquote>At the risk of being repetitive... Brawlers are NOT broken when it comes to solo, heroic, group and minor (KoS) raid content. </blockquote>Nobody is saying they are. Really, they're not. <cite>Freliant wrote:</cite><blockquote>The point of this entire thread is that brawlers want to be more usefull in EoF T7 raids. </blockquote>Yup. Pretty much. Agree with you so far. Freliant wrote: <blockquote>If a brawler is made to tank as well as a guardian, then why even roll a guardian when you can have more dps with a brawler and still tank just as good? If a brawler can aoe and dps more than a zerker, why even have a zerker when all you need is a monk... </blockquote>Now follow this thought through... If a zerker can aoe and dps more than a brawler, and a guardian can tank better than a brawler.. then why have a brawler at all? That is the problem. We're looking for a solution here. Well, those that aren't sidetracking and threadcrapping anyway. Freliant wrote: <blockquote>... granted maybe a little more utility is needed, but then again, it has to not invalidate the job that the other classes are already doing </blockquote>Fine! Then give Brawlers a job TOO! That's all we're asking for.. is what every other class seems to have. Give us an excuse to be on the raid! Why is this so hard for people to understand? Why does every thread where we try to thrash out some ideas end up being invaded by people who blindly assume that we want to tank like guardians and dps like swashbucklers?

PaganSaint

07-11-2007, 09:37 PM

Because those people do not understand the classes and do not have the experiance with the content that the classes struggle with as a whole. Because they have second hand knowlege and do not play the classes. That is why you have people posting like freliant.As it is brawlers have superb contested avoidance. This is great for heroic content where their mitigation is not up to par with the plate tanks. Which is expected.But brawlers have poor uncontested avoidance. This is rather pathetic due to the way their defensive abilities are made. A brawlers mitigation is very close to a plate tank's when in a raid tank group. Yet they take much more damage, this is due to their uncontested avoidance, not their mitigation. They get hit more often, for about the same damage. This means they require more healers using more healing, more power and more defensive abilities used. This is rather unacceptable for what is a hybrid tank/dps class. Especially after this next part.As it is brawlers have average DPS and little to none for wide spread application utility abilities. This is fine for heroic content. This is fine for solo content. This is [Removed for Content] poor design for raiding.Brawlers, with only average DPS and little or highly specialized and limited to those few situations utility, do not gain the raid spots. This is mostly due to the lack of DPS. There are plenty of classes that provide all of the utility needed for a raid to perform multiple strategies while providing average DPS. If additional utility was added to brawlers they still would be low on the list. Why? Because they still only provide average DPS, poor survivability, and carry the stigma of no utility and raid leaders and guilds have developed strategies that work with the current raid capable classes. The utility that brawlers were intended to have was the ability to ouput good DPS while being able to tank if needed or in emergencies, the ability to split mobs(FD pull) and the ability to scout/find clickable or needed mobs/items in a zone. After the first few times through a zone that last one is not needed. The second is rarely needed and can be done much more easily by a coercer now, a class that can save total wipes with the same ability that enables them to do this, something brawlers cannot do, and coercers provide the same DPS and much more overall utility. The first is the most logical and easiest way to enhance and finally make brawlers completely raid capable.As it is brawlers are not gaining the raid spots, which means they cannot gain the equipment, which means they cannot improve their survivability, their DPS and their utility(directly tied to DPS and survivability).So please. People who do not see the content, do not play the classes and do not have a full grip on the mechanics; Stop posting about here about this topic which you do not understand.

liveja

07-11-2007, 10:57 PM

Let's see who can follow the logic chain.Original Design Philosophy: Rather than having classes that were obviously "superior" in a given role, such that said classes are the ONLY ones people would want performing that role, we instead give all sub-classes within a given class archetype the ability to do the same things equally well, albeit in different ways, using different abilities.So, with that in mind ....All Scouts & Mages provide DPS & some various utility to a group/raid, but they do so in different ways. This is not to say they all do the same level of DPS, just that they're more-or-less DPS classes.All Priests heal more or less equally well, but do so in different fashions, & are equally suited to solo healing most heroic content, as well as being valuable in raid content.I'd like to point out, before I go on, that most people accept the above two statements, more-or-less (argue the details elsewhere, this post isn't about that) as being essentially "true".Now, then, if those two above statements are more or less widely accepted as "true", then ...All fighters are equally capable of tanking in a group/raid situation, but they do so in different ways.So why is it that this statement -- which seems pretty common sense & would seem to fit nicely in the stipulated design philosophy -- which, BTW, I think is more-or-less SOE's design stratey -- is so apparently controversial?Seriously, people, given that the idea is to avoid the "we gotta take THIS class & THIS class only" syndrome that plagued EQ1, why in the world would anyone argue the notion that Brawlers should be able to tank as well as any other fighter, in all content situations, albeit "differently"? Why is that idea so hard to accept for people?Brawlers need some kind of loving. Period.

Ramius613

07-11-2007, 11:34 PM

<cite>Bladewind wrote:</cite><blockquote>I'm talking about uncontested avoidance (avoidance that ignores mob 'to hit' bonuses).The only avoidance that is uncontested is anything a player has in block (ie, shield factor, AA block bonuses, and block adornments) and a portion of the delfection in brawler defensive (12% deflection uncontested) and mixed (6% uncontested) stances. So, a plate tank with a solid shield and block benefits, will have 25% or so uncontested avoidance in any stance (defensive or offensive) when they have a shield equipped. A brawler will have 12% uncontested in defensive only (or 6% in mixed stance). All contested aovidance is cut to shreds by eof mob offensive bonuses, resulting in a plate tank enjoying a massive avoidance benefit over brawlers (this is very, very wrong). Not only do brawlers have very limtied uncontested avodiance from the get go, but they also cannot improve it through AAs or equipment upgrades. The simple balancing solution that we are asking for is to make all of our deflection uncontested (~35% avoid, fyi). That would make us the kings of avoidance that we should be in the raid sphere, just like we are in the solo and group spheres.As far as people wanting to be the best tank or t1 dps, they are far fewer then the mainstream brawlers who recognize the need for class balance and just want to be fixed. To me, the problem seems to always go back to progression where brawler benefits are static while other fighters have benefits that depend on equipment quality. This forces brawlers into a performance plateau where others can keep improving their performance at a much faster rate given similar quality upgrades. You see this same hinderance with warrior/crusader multi-attack vs the static brawler aoe proc, double attack restricted to no weapons vs double attack that modifies any weapon, uncontested avoidance tied to a stance vs tied to equipment, etc... And...OK, here is the big problem with avoidance... Brawlers are avodiance tanks - ie, avoidance is how we manage incoming damage. Plate tanks are mitigation tanks. Soaking damage is their primary means of managing incoming damage.In a heroic scenario, all avoidance types work relatively well. The value you see on your character sheet is pretty-much what you get. However, when you face a typical eof raid mob, all contested avoidance types are reduced to about 10% (at best) of their normal values. So, a brawler with 12% base uncontested gets a whopping 5-6% more from their contested (usually 50-60%), for a total of ~17-20% effective avoidance. A plate tank who has 25-30% from their shield/block bonuses and another 40-50% (gives a contribution of about 5%) from their other avoidance types has about 30-35% vs eof raid mobs.Why do I, as an avoidance tank, get 12% uncontested avoidance (and only if I am in defensive) where a mitigation tank gets 20-30% depending on the gear, AAs, and adornments they choose in ANY stance? Do you see the glaring disparity? Let me spell it out - Plate tanks get more uncontested avoidance (double to almost triple) than a brawler. This is why brawlers fold against raid mobs - we get hit 3+ times for a plate tank's every 2. Plate tanks have their traditonal higher mitigation on top of this, so they are hit less often and take less damage per hit. Avoidance tanks having the lowest avoidance is a broken mechanic - plain and simple.A brawler having half of the avodiance as a plate tank in a raid setting is just as ridiculous as a plate tank having half the mitigation of a brawler in raid setting. If the shoe was on the other foot, you and every other fighter in plate would be screaming bloody murder. The fact that you can get that same uncontested avoidance in any stance while a brawler has to stay defensive to get their relative pittance is naught but salt in the wound.I hope this clarifies the argument. I never claimed that brawlers had zero uncontested avoidance, but rather that it is pretty stupid that they have half or less than a plate tank. My bithcing about being forced into defensive relative to a plate tank enjoying their uncontested in any stance was meant to hammer the point home of how broken the system is. </blockquote>Thank you for your insight and explanation of the numbers, and how the current setup for us is COMPLETELY screwed. I sort of gathered why avoidance was broken, but this information made me understand it in a much more complete manner. That being said, and my new understanding, that just makes me more PO'ed at how bad we need a fix, and hopefully one is coming soon (read a thread that the devs were working on something, FROM AN ACTUAL DEV). I don't usually miss out on raids when I am there, as I play in a more casual guild, and we don't have the amount of people we should. But I still think that we need to bring something to the table in order to help a raid succeed in any manner.Thanks again Bladewind for your insight

Madmoon

07-12-2007, 10:44 AM

What if they made whatever our mitigation is into uncontested mitigation? So, if you have 60% mitigation, it is all uncontested. You could boost this to 72% in defensive stance, 66% in mixed and 60% in offensive. Would this fix EoF raid content? Would it break - overpower - us in the 90% of Norrath that is the rest of the game? I have a picture of this Ueber-fighter from level 25 to 65: STR AA line, 72% uncontested avoidance and even-con heroics being unable to land a hit.What if they tied some kind of uncontested avoidance to level? At 20th you would have 20% uncontested, at 43rd, 43% uncontested, etc. Then we could "grow" without being overpowered, and for EoF raids you would be 70% uncontested, boosted to 82% in defensive stance.I think we all agree that brawlers are a great class up to EoF raid content. So whatever solutions we seek, we ourselves have to reflect on the consequences of these changes with the vast, vast majority of the content outside of raids.

Choombatta

07-12-2007, 11:22 AM

So let me get this straight........Brawlers in defensive stance get a total of 16% uncontested avoidance ( from previous posters ).Non-Paladin,Tower or Kite shield users ( not buckler ) get 19% uncontested avoidance ( 20% with block adornment ). So how again is 16% = 1/2 or 1/3 of 19%?Paladins are the only ones who can get their uncontested block to 25%, not all shield using fighters.

mr23sgte

07-12-2007, 11:38 AM

<cite>Choombatta wrote:</cite><blockquote>So let me get this straight........Brawlers in defensive stance get a total of 16% uncontested avoidance ( from previous posters ).Non-Paladin,Tower or Kite shield users ( not buckler ) get 19% uncontested avoidance ( 20% with block adornment ). So how again is 16% = 1/2 or 1/3 of 19%?Paladins are the only ones who can get their uncontested block to 25%, not all shield using fighters.</blockquote>Why are you trying to pick apart pieces of the Brawler arguments .......... the point is "we need raid help", I don't think anyone cares about percentages of one persons post.

Bladewind

07-12-2007, 11:42 AM

Fixing our uncontested avoidance so that we have more than plate tanks and changing our dps AAs so they modify weapon damage instead of providing relatively small fixed bonuses are the two key things that will fix brawlers. This allows us to function in our primary role, avoidance tank, in a raid situation, and it also allows our dps to increase at the same rate as other fighters' through gear upgrades. The two concepts are pretty simple. Brawlers are forced into a tanking and dps plataeus that other fighters do not see. Therefore, at the high end, brawlers with equivalent gear tank worse and dps worse relative to other fighters.All fighters were designed as tanks, period. It boggles my mind that so many people cannot except this. Brawlers tank via avoidance, plate tanks tank via mitigation. Crusaders sacrifice a small amount of their mitigation for self-heals/life taps, making them the only true tanking hybrids. None of these classes were designed to do anything besides tanking as their primary role. I keep hearing that brawlers are hybrid scouts or hybrid dps, and it simply is unfounded and/or a carry over in eq1 attitudes. Well, this is eq2 - brawlers were designed differently in this game - welcome to ~3 years ago. No developer has ever posted that brawlers were designed as dps. Several developers have posted several times that brawlers are tanks, like all fighters. The message is pretty cut and dry. Sure, they may have messed up mechanics on several occasions, but the intent for all fighters to be able to tank well is apparent. Brawlers get a bit of extra single target dps in place of aoe aggro generation abilities. So what? This does not make them dps. Berzerkers get extra aoe aggro generation in place of single target abilities, this by no means discounts them as tanks. The gimpy brawler AAs and implementation of uncontested avoidance have muddied the waters even more, forcing brawlers to go defensive to tank 'effeiciently' while plate tanks can easily tank most content in offensive while still retaining their avoidance.The reason brawlers tank so poorly in an eof raid scenario has nothing to do with the basic concept of avoidance, but it has everything to do with the way 'uncontested avoidance' was introduced and implemented. For a reason that has yet to be explained, brawlers were intially given none, then later given small portion that is still far below what a plate tank receives. So, in a raid sitaution, a brawler has the traditional lower mitigation (no one is complaining about this) and dramatically lower avoidance (this is not only unfair but also nonsensical). In a typical eof raid (against a yellow mob), a plate tank will have 35-40% effective avoidance and 55-60% effective mitigation while a brawler will have ~20% effective avoidance and 50-55% effectvie mitigation. This translates to the brawler taking ~30% more hits than a plate tank and taking ~12% more damage per hit. In other words, a brawler will receive ~34% more of the incoming damage than a plate tank on average. There is no balance there. Giving brawlers a higher percentage of uncontested avoidance means our tanking vs high end/eof epic will become viable but it will have no effect what-so-ever on the rest of the game's spheres (remember this is increasing the portion of our avoidance that is uncontested, nto icnreasing our overall avoidance at all). Uncontested only matters when the mob you are facing can ignore your contested avoidance. If a brawler were to have 25-30% uncontested instead of 16%, they would have about 5% more effective avoidance than a plate tank vs a raid mob and 5% less mitigation - balance. Plate tanks, especially warriors, still receive many more additional tanking abilities than a brawler that will still make them a more ideal choice as MT even if the core mechanics were balanced. This change would not suddenly make brawlers super tanks, just able to do the job when needed (ie, actually be able to stay up on a pickup and able to MT in a case where no plater is available).I have zero desire to be made into some uber class. I have every desire to be able to perform my primary function and to not be forced into a performance plataeu that the other two classes in my archetype do not experience.

Bladewind

07-12-2007, 11:55 AM

<cite>Choombatta wrote:</cite><blockquote>So let me get this straight........Brawlers in defensive stance get a total of 16% uncontested avoidance ( from previous posters ).Non-Paladin,Tower or Kite shield users ( not buckler ) get 19% uncontested avoidance ( 20% with block adornment ). So how again is 16% = 1/2 or 1/3 of 19%?Paladins are the only ones who can get their uncontested block to 25%, not all shield using fighters.</blockquote> There are shields out there that give a bit more than 19%. Buckler specs get 10% riposte that shows up nowhere on the charatcer sheet in place of their lost block, so it is by no means a handicap. The old block adornments that were changed to parry adornments are also uncontested. Before you jump down my throat about choice and a brawler using them, realize that mitigation adornemnts are also available for those slots. If a brawler opts out of the extra mit, they lose as much as they gain in overall tanking ability from taking the uncontested parry. However, since a plate tank is so high on the mitigation curve, they lose very little effective mitigation by taking the uncontested parry adronments instead. A tower using warrior/sk can get up to about 22-23% uncontested and a paladin can get up to about 28% uncontested. You have to take the uncontested plus what the contested collapses to as the total effective avoidance before you compare the two. My estimate of 1/2 to 1/3 is off in retrospect - it is more like 2/3 after I did some more math.More imprtantly, regardless of how much less uncontested avoidance it is, why is it less at all? Brawlers are avoidance tanks. Why do they have the least avoidance? As I said before, if brawlers had higher mitigation than plate tanks, every plate tank would be outraged. Why is it so hard to understand why we are similarly upset about this issue?

Gasheron

07-12-2007, 11:56 AM

<cite>Choombatta wrote:</cite><blockquote>So let me get this straight........Brawlers in defensive stance get a total of 16% uncontested avoidance ( from previous posters ).Non-Paladin,Tower or Kite shield users ( not buckler ) get 19% uncontested avoidance ( 20% with block adornment ). So how again is 16% = 1/2 or 1/3 of 19%?Paladins are the only ones who can get their uncontested block to 25%, not all shield using fighters.</blockquote>Just curious, where did you get the 16% figure? Because everyone else in this thread has said that our defensive stance only gives us 12% uncontested avoidance, and our balanced only gives us 6%. Not to mention our offensive stance, which is the best way to hold agro due to the higher DPS output, gives us no uncontested avoidance.So, those plate tanks with 19-20% uncontested have roughly 8% more than we do when we are in defensive, 14% more than we do when we are in balanced, and 20% more than we do when we are in offensive.Now, as said above, if you factor in the contested portion of avoidance, which will be greatly reduced from the displayed values shown, brawlers will get maybe another 5% avoidance out of it, bring our overall effective avoidance to around 17%. Note that this is overall avoidance, NOT uncontested. Therefore, even with our lowered values of contested avoidance added in, in defensive stance plate tanks still have 3% more uncontested avoidance than we have overall, in balanced the difference is 9%, and in offensive it is still 20%. Does this seem right?

Choombatta

07-12-2007, 11:56 AM

Hereo@Unrest wrote: <blockquote><cite>Choombatta wrote:</cite><blockquote>So let me get this straight........Brawlers in defensive stance get a total of 16% uncontested avoidance ( from previous posters ).Non-Paladin,Tower or Kite shield users ( not buckler ) get 19% uncontested avoidance ( 20% with block adornment ). So how again is 16% = 1/2 or 1/3 of 19%?Paladins are the only ones who can get their uncontested block to 25%, not all shield using fighters.</blockquote>Why are you trying to pick apart pieces of the Brawler arguments .......... the point is "we need raid help", I don't think anyone cares about percentages of one persons post. </blockquote> I am not trying to pick apart your arguments, and I even said earlier I agreed that brawlers needed something.But the posting of completely inaccurate info ( Shield fighters get 25-30% uncontested block ) is not the way to do it.The developers know how the game works, and trying to convince them that something that is not accurate as a basis for changing your class will never work. The developers know that fighters can get at best 20% uncontested block ( with adornments ) and that Paladins only can get up to 25%, but no one can get 30% block without the new Warden AA temp ability ( which the warden has to be standing on you to benefit from ).Again to make myself clear......The best way to get changes in your class is to state, without exaggeration, the problems you see in your class. It is the exaggerations that will bite you in the [Removed for Content].

Choombatta

07-12-2007, 12:06 PM

Couching@Crushbone wrote: <blockquote> I have to be in defensive stance to get 16% uncontested stance. That's really unreasonable and unfair for brawler. (I have about 57% mitigation and 72% avoidance in defensive stance). Actually, I dont use defensive stance since it's harder to hold mobs on me. It's same for every fighter that it's harder to hold mobs on you in defensive stance. </blockquote> That would be where I got the 16% number from.

Couching

07-12-2007, 12:22 PM

<cite>Choombatta wrote:</cite><blockquote>Couching@Crushbone wrote: <blockquote> I have to be in defensive stance to get 16% uncontested stance. That's really unreasonable and unfair for brawler. (I have about 57% mitigation and 72% avoidance in defensive stance). Actually, I dont use defensive stance since it's harder to hold mobs on me. It's same for every fighter that it's harder to hold mobs on you in defensive stance. </blockquote> That would be where I got the 16% number from.</blockquote>It depends on your spell quality. For Master 1, it is 16%.

Couching

07-12-2007, 12:26 PM

<cite>Choombatta wrote:</cite><blockquote>So let me get this straight........Brawlers in defensive stance get a total of 16% uncontested avoidance ( from previous posters ).Non-Paladin,Tower or Kite shield users ( not buckler ) get 19% uncontested avoidance ( 20% with block adornment ). So how again is 16% = 1/2 or 1/3 of 19%?Paladins are the only ones who can get their uncontested block to 25%, not all shield using fighters.</blockquote>Oh, so plate tank is POOR that they didn't have double uncontested avoidance than avoidance tank? Hi Devs, come and boost the plate tanks since a noob plate tank is complaining that they didn't have enough uncontested avoidance in this game. PS: Stop being idiot ok? Who care you have double uncontested avoidance than us or not. What we care is that a mitigation tank shouldn't have MORE avoidance than avoidance tank in any condition.

Choombatta

07-12-2007, 01:05 PM

Couching@Crushbone wrote: <blockquote><cite>Choombatta wrote:</cite><blockquote>So let me get this straight........Brawlers in defensive stance get a total of 16% uncontested avoidance ( from previous posters ).Non-Paladin,Tower or Kite shield users ( not buckler ) get 19% uncontested avoidance ( 20% with block adornment ). So how again is 16% = 1/2 or 1/3 of 19%?Paladins are the only ones who can get their uncontested block to 25%, not all shield using fighters.</blockquote>Oh, so plate tank is POOR that they didn't have double uncontested avoidance than avoidance tank? Hi Devs, come and boost the plate tanks since a noob plate tank is complaining that they didn't have enough uncontested avoidance in this game. PS: Stop being idiot ok? Who care you have double uncontested avoidance than us or not. What we care is that a mitigation tank shouldn't have MORE avoidance than avoidance tank in any condition. </blockquote>Where have I once said plate tanks are "POOR" or that I did not have enough uncontested avoidance?It is just such examples that I am posting against, not improving the brawlers, but the posting of wildly inaccurate information, which you have once again done in the above quote. Mitigation tanks do not have more avoidance then brawlers.............Mitigation tanks apparently have a couple of extra pts of uncontested avoidance.You yourself, Crouching, said you got 16% uncontested avoidance but chose not to use it. This after other brawlers had posted they got 0% uncontested avoidance, which apprently really means, "chose to have 0% uncontested avoidance".It is that difference I am referring to.There are plenty of times in this thread ( let alone of the other brawler threads ) where people are saying completely false things. For example, "Brawlers have 1/2-1/3 the uncontested avoidance of shield users".- False. Shield users have at most 25% more uncontested, which would mean brawlers have 3/4 the uncontested avoidance."Shield using Plate Tanks have 25-30% uncontested avoidance"-False. Shield using Plate Tanks using a Tower or Kite shield will have 19% uncontested avoidance ( Buckler users even less ), 24% for Paladins which can be raised a single % pt through adornments.**EDIT**As for the argument that Brawlers are messed up because they rely more on skill checks vs. other fighters relying on equipment, I completely agree. That is hosed.

Couching

07-12-2007, 01:16 PM

<cite>Madmoon wrote:</cite><blockquote>I think we all agree that brawlers are a great class up to EoF raid content. So whatever solutions we seek, we ourselves have to reflect on the consequences of these changes with the vast, vast majority of the content outside of raids.</blockquote>No, I disagree. For tanking, brawler has less mitigation, less uncontested avoidance and less aggro control comparing to plate tank. It is game mechanics. No matter lv1 or lv70. No matter in noob area to EoF. It didn't change. When did you see a brawler has more mitigation than a plate tank with same level gears? Never ! Since KoS plate relic armor suit has about 1500 mitigation more than leather relic. When did you see a brawler has more uncontested mitigation than a plate tank? Never! Since plate tank can have more uncontested avoidance with shield and brawlers are forced to be in defensive to get it. Even we are in defensive stance, we still have less uncontested avoidance. When did you see a brawler has more aggro control than a plate tank? Never, we have only 1 group encounter taunt every 20 sec comparing to most of them with 2 group encounter taunts, passive taunt and AoE taunt. How could brawler has better aggro control? For dps, we are also sup par to other plate tank once you have 40+ aa in raid. It's also game mechanics, no matter in KoS or EoF. Why? Because brawler tree is garbage comparing to war tree/crusader tree. There is almost no progression for brawler. Guardian and zerker have 22% critical hit chances and we have 18%. Guardian and zerker with 60% double attack will deal higher damage when they get better weapons. Brawler can't since our double attack is limited to bare fist. Moreover, guardian can get extra 10% double attack from EoF tree. Let see a simple math. The equation of DR of same quality DW and 1h weapon is that DW = 0.75 *1h. The is the equation how SoE determined 1h and DW. A guardian with 70% double attack with a 85 DR = 144. It's by far better than two 63.5*2 DW weapons for brawlers. Not to say before LU36, guardian can get 86% double attack or even 97% double attack with brimstone hammer from instanced mayong. This is how guardian and zerker can out damage brawler in raid with raid buffers. For AoE damage, War and crusader can get 40% frontal aoe from main hand weapon. It's by far better than brawler 16% aoe. Since the damage our brawler aoe is similar to master craft 1h with coercer and dirge. Any plate tank with better weapon than master craft will deal much more damage than brawler in aoe with group buff in raid. For example, if you have brimstone hammer, your avrage hit can up to 1.6k with coercer and dirge. Without coercer, the average hit is still up to 1.3k ! See the problem now? A smart guardian/zerker with 22% critical hit, 40% aoe attack and 60% double attack will out damage brawler as easy as abc since it's simple math. The only excuse is "hi, i didn't spec to that since i want better mitigation or other excuses". Ok, if your guild sucks and you have to choice defensive stance and defense aa to survive in raid, SOMEDAY, when your guild didn't suck, you can spec to what I listed. It's called progression ! However, for brawler, we have no progression. A best well geared brawler has the same aoe damage and single target proc as full hand craft twink brawler!!! Not to say we have ZERO double attack with fabled weapons. Is it reasonable comparing to war/crusader? Once you can get fabled gears, war/crusader is better than brawler.

Bladewind

07-12-2007, 01:23 PM

Avoidance solution:Set 25% (out of our base deflection total - not tied to a stance) as brawler base uncontested amount. Let mixed stance switch 3% more to uncontested and let defensive stance switch 6% more to uncontested (both at master, 1% and 2% for adept 1 or lower, 2% and 4% for adept 3). This would mean a brawler would have 25% uncontested in offensive, 28% in mixed, and 31% in defensive with master stances. I think that balances very well with a plate being able to have 21-22% or 26-27% uncontested in any stance with a fabled tower. In order to maximize our uncontested, we would need fabled stances, while plate wearers need to seek out a fabled shield. Either way, you need high quality gear to squeeze the last few % into uncontested. When brawlers trade off dps to be more defensive, we, as the masters of avoidance, get more of an uncontested benefit - not so much more as to make us gods, but enough to make us viable in the raid setting.If you couple this solution with the partial bonuses to armed brawlers from the str line and changing our aoe proc to match the other fighter multi attack AAs proposals, I would wager you would have some pretty happy and finally balanced brawlers on your hands.

Hydor

07-12-2007, 01:23 PM

<cite>Choombatta wrote:</cite><blockquote>Couching@Crushbone wrote: <blockquote><cite>Choombatta wrote:</cite><blockquote>So let me get this straight........Brawlers in defensive stance get a total of 16% uncontested avoidance ( from previous posters ).Non-Paladin,Tower or Kite shield users ( not buckler ) get 19% uncontested avoidance ( 20% with block adornment ). So how again is 16% = 1/2 or 1/3 of 19%?Paladins are the only ones who can get their uncontested block to 25%, not all shield using fighters.</blockquote>Oh, so plate tank is POOR that they didn't have double uncontested avoidance than avoidance tank? Hi Devs, come and boost the plate tanks since a noob plate tank is complaining that they didn't have enough uncontested avoidance in this game. PS: Stop being idiot ok? Who care you have double uncontested avoidance than us or not. What we care is that a mitigation tank shouldn't have MORE avoidance than avoidance tank in any condition. </blockquote>Mitigation tanks apparently have a couple of extra pts of uncontested avoidance.</blockquote>That alone should keep you from posting.Do something constructive instead of posting here against brawlers. Oh yes, you mentioned we need some help, sorry. I guess we can do without your support, thank you.If devs know how the game works and what's wrong if there is anything wrong as you posted there is no need for you "correcting" people.If you ve never been in a group/raid that people think "we can't do it because we don't haver a(nother) tank" you have no idea what it might feel like to play a brawler. So, considering this I guess even some people exaggerate a litlle or a lot about some things THEY ARE GOD ****** ENTITLED TO!

Couching

07-12-2007, 01:24 PM

<cite>Choombatta wrote:</cite><blockquote>Where have I once said plate tanks are "POOR" or that I did not have enough uncontested avoidance?It is just such examples that I am posting against, not improving the brawlers, but the posting of wildly inaccurate information, which you have once again done in the above quote. Mitigation tanks do not have more avoidance then brawlers.............Mitigation tanks apparently have a couple of extra pts of uncontested avoidance.You yourself, Crouching, said you got 16% uncontested avoidance but chose not to use it. This after other brawlers had posted they got 0% uncontested avoidance, which apprently really means, "chose to have 0% uncontested avoidance".It is that difference I am referring to.There are plenty of times in this thread ( let alone of the other brawler threads ) where people are saying completely false things. For example, "Brawlers have 1/2-1/3 the uncontested avoidance of shield users".- False. Shield users have at most 25% more uncontested, which would mean brawlers have 3/4 the uncontested avoidance."Shield using Plate Tanks have 25-30% uncontested avoidance"-False. Shield using Plate Tanks using a Tower or Kite shield will have 19% uncontested avoidance ( Buckler users even less ), 24% for Paladins which can be raised a single % pt through adornments.**EDIT**As for the argument that Brawlers are messed up because they rely more on skill checks vs. other fighters relying on equipment, I completely agree. That is hosed. </blockquote>No, I have stated many times that most tank no matter you are OT or MT, it's best to use offensive rather than defensive stance for better aggro control in raids. When I am OT in raid, I need to be in offensive stance to hold mobs on me rather than defensive. In other word, I have no choice! Offensive to hold adds or lose adds with 16% uncontested avoidance. No body care if you have uncontested avoidance or not if you can't get mobs on you ! The same thing happened on other plate tank as OT. They were all in offensive stance for better aggro to hold mobs but they still have uncontested avoidance! How hard to understand it?

Choombatta

07-12-2007, 01:38 PM

Couching@Crushbone wrote: <blockquote><cite>Madmoon wrote:</cite><blockquote>I think we all agree that brawlers are a great class up to EoF raid content. So whatever solutions we seek, we ourselves have to reflect on the consequences of these changes with the vast, vast majority of the content outside of raids.</blockquote>No, I disagree. For tanking, brawler has less mitigation, less uncontested avoidance and less aggro control comparing to plate tank. It is game mechanics. No matter lv1 or lv70. No matter in noob area to EoF. It didn't change. When did you see a brawler has more mitigation than a plate tank with same level gears? Never ! Since KoS plate relic armor suit has about 1500 mitigation more than leather relic. When did you see a brawler has more uncontested mitigation than a plate tank? Never! Since plate tank can have more uncontested avoidance with shield and brawlers are forced to be in defensive to get it. Even we are in defensive stance, we still have less uncontested avoidance."Can Have" is the key words there, not every tank listens to the MIN/Max crowd, and they still seem to be able to raid tank. When did you see a brawler has more aggro control than a plate tank? Never, we have only 1 group encounter taunt every 20 sec comparing to most of them with 2 group encounter taunts, passive taunt and AoE taunt. How could brawler has better aggro control? For dps, we are also sup par to other plate tank once you have 40+ aa in raid. It's also game mechanics, no matter in KoS or EoF. Why? Because brawler tree is garbage comparing to war tree/crusader tree. There is almost no progression for brawler. Guardian and zerker have 22% critical hit chances and we have 18%. Guardian and zerker with 60% double attack will deal higher damage when they get better weapons. Brawler can't since our double attack is limited to bare fist. Moreover, guardian can get extra 10% double attack from EoF tree. Let see a simple math.And how much avoidance must the guardian/zerker give up to be able to get those abilities? Alot more then you seem to let on. The equation of DR of same quality DW and 1h weapon is that DW = 0.75 *1h. The is the equation how SoE determined 1h and DW. A guardian with 70% double attack with a 85 DR = 144. It's by far better than two 63.5*2 DW weapons for brawlers. Not to say before LU36, guardian can get 86% double attack or even 97% double attack with brimstone hammer from instanced mayong. This is how guardian and zerker can out damage brawler in raid with raid buffers.Again, "can out damage" does not mean "always out damages". Obviously brawlers CAN out damage a Warrior, just not all of them apparently. For AoE damage, War and crusader can get 40% frontal aoe from main hand weapon. It's by far better than brawler 16% aoe. Since the damage our brawler aoe is similar to master craft 1h with coercer and dirge. Any plate tank with better weapon than master craft will deal much more damage than brawler in aoe with group buff in raid. For example, if you have brimstone hammer, your avrage hit can up to 1.6k with coercer and dirge. Without coercer, the average hit is still up to 1.3k ! See the problem now? A smart guardian/zerker with 22% critical hit, 40% aoe attack and 60% double attack will out damage brawler as easy as abc since it's simple math. This would be all good and well IF a guardian/zerker could get all 3 abilities with 8pts in each. The only excuse is "hi, i didn't spec to that since i want better mitigation or other excuses". Ok, if your guild sucks and you have to choice defensive stance and defense aa to survive in raid, SOMEDAY, when your guild didn't suck, you can spec to what I listed. It's called progression !Yes, My guild and I must suck because we do not fit YOUR idea of what a raid tank should spec. Nice argument there. Of course you ignore the flip side of the excuse "Why would I tank in defensive stance?".Of course, I could say you and your guild must suck if you are always being out-damaged by your MT, but I would not chose to go that route. However, for brawler, we have no progression. A best well geared brawler has the same aoe damage and single target proc as full hand craft twink brawler!!!But do you have the same mitigation and avoidance between a Fabled geared brawler and a Mastercrafted Brawler? Of course not. Not to say we have ZERO double attack with fabled weapons. Is it reasonable comparing to war/crusader? Once you can get fabled gears, war/crusader is better than brawler. </blockquote>

Choombatta

07-12-2007, 01:43 PM

<cite>Hydor wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Choombatta wrote:</cite><blockquote>Couching@Crushbone wrote: <blockquote><cite>Choombatta wrote:</cite><blockquote>So let me get this straight........Brawlers in defensive stance get a total of 16% uncontested avoidance ( from previous posters ).Non-Paladin,Tower or Kite shield users ( not buckler ) get 19% uncontested avoidance ( 20% with block adornment ). So how again is 16% = 1/2 or 1/3 of 19%?Paladins are the only ones who can get their uncontested block to 25%, not all shield using fighters.</blockquote>Oh, so plate tank is POOR that they didn't have double uncontested avoidance than avoidance tank? Hi Devs, come and boost the plate tanks since a noob plate tank is complaining that they didn't have enough uncontested avoidance in this game. PS: Stop being idiot ok? Who care you have double uncontested avoidance than us or not. What we care is that a mitigation tank shouldn't have MORE avoidance than avoidance tank in any condition. </blockquote>Mitigation tanks apparently have a couple of extra pts of uncontested avoidance.</blockquote>That alone should keep you from posting.Do something constructive instead of posting here against brawlers. Oh yes, you mentioned we need some help, sorry. I guess we can do without your support, thank you.If devs know how the game works and what's wrong if there is anything wrong as you posted there is no need for you "correcting" people.If you ve never been in a group/raid that people think "we can't do it because we don't haver a(nother) tank" you have no idea what it might feel like to play a brawler. So, considering this I guess even some people exaggerate a litlle or a lot about some things THEY ARE GOD ****** ENTITLED TO! </blockquote>It is the part in red why I am even posting.So it is ok to make up stuff and post them as facts or to exaggerate the problem?I guess 16% and 19% is a difference of more then just a few pts? Looks like a difference of only 3 to me, but maybe you see a 3rd digit in there no one else sees.

Couching

07-12-2007, 01:56 PM

<cite>Choombatta wrote:</cite><blockquote>Couching@Crushbone wrote: <blockquote><cite>Madmoon wrote:</cite><blockquote>I think we all agree that brawlers are a great class up to EoF raid content. So whatever solutions we seek, we ourselves have to reflect on the consequences of these changes with the vast, vast majority of the content outside of raids.</blockquote>No, I disagree. For tanking, brawler has less mitigation, less uncontested avoidance and less aggro control comparing to plate tank. It is game mechanics. No matter lv1 or lv70. No matter in noob area to EoF. It didn't change. When did you see a brawler has more mitigation than a plate tank with same level gears? Never ! Since KoS plate relic armor suit has about 1500 mitigation more than leather relic. When did you see a brawler has more uncontested mitigation than a plate tank? Never! Since plate tank can have more uncontested avoidance with shield and brawlers are forced to be in defensive to get it. Even we are in defensive stance, we still have less uncontested avoidance."Can Have" is the key words there, not every tank listens to the MIN/Max crowd, and they still seem to be able to raid tank. Ya, I have seen plate tank with some hand craft armors tanking in Lab. It just sure how powerful plate tank is. When did you see a brawler did in same way? When did you see a brawler has more aggro control than a plate tank? Never, we have only 1 group encounter taunt every 20 sec comparing to most of them with 2 group encounter taunts, passive taunt and AoE taunt. How could brawler has better aggro control? For dps, we are also sup par to other plate tank once you have 40+ aa in raid. It's also game mechanics, no matter in KoS or EoF. Why? Because brawler tree is garbage comparing to war tree/crusader tree. There is almost no progression for brawler. Guardian and zerker have 22% critical hit chances and we have 18%. Guardian and zerker with 60% double attack will deal higher damage when they get better weapons. Brawler can't since our double attack is limited to bare fist. Moreover, guardian can get extra 10% double attack from EoF tree. Let see a simple math.And how much avoidance must the guardian/zerker give up to be able to get those abilities? Alot more then you seem to let on.So what? They still have more than brawlers in offensive stance since we have ZERO. The equation of DR of same quality DW and 1h weapon is that DW = 0.75 *1h. The is the equation how SoE determined 1h and DW. A guardian with 70% double attack with a 85 DR = 144. It's by far better than two 63.5*2 DW weapons for brawlers. Not to say before LU36, guardian can get 86% double attack or even 97% double attack with brimstone hammer from instanced mayong. This is how guardian and zerker can out damage brawler in raid with raid buffers.Again, "can out damage" does not mean "always out damages". Obviously brawlers CAN out damage a Warrior, just not all of them apparently.So what? I did out damage a noob swashy who did 300dps zonewide in raid. Does it mean anything? You should learn your class better rather than complaining since Devs gave you tools to deal more damage than brawlers. If you can't, it's your problem. For AoE damage, War and crusader can get 40% frontal aoe from main hand weapon. It's by far better than brawler 16% aoe. Since the damage our brawler aoe is similar to master craft 1h with coercer and dirge. Any plate tank with better weapon than master craft will deal much more damage than brawler in aoe with group buff in raid. For example, if you have brimstone hammer, your avrage hit can up to 1.6k with coercer and dirge. Without coercer, the average hit is still up to 1.3k ! See the problem now? A smart guardian/zerker with 22% critical hit, 40% aoe attack and 60% double attack will out damage brawler as easy as abc since it's simple math. This would be all good and well IF a guardian/zerker could get all 3 abilities with 8pts in each. Why not? 4 4 8 on 3 line is less than 50 points. Don't tell me you are bugged and can't put 50 points in your war tree. The only excuse is "hi, i didn't spec to that since i want better mitigation or other excuses". Ok, if your guild sucks and you have to choice defensive stance and defense aa to survive in raid, SOMEDAY, when your guild didn't suck, you can spec to what I listed. It's called progression !Yes, My guild and I must suck because we do not fit YOUR idea of what a raid tank should spec. Nice argument there. Of course you ignore the flip side of the excuse "Why would I tank in defensive stance?".Of course, I could say you and your guild must suck if you are always being out-damaged by your MT, but I would not chose to go that route.You can since I don't mind. Why? It's same as a swashy can out damage me and I don't need to be ashamed. It's game mechanics. However, for brawler, we have no progression. A best well geared brawler has the same aoe damage and single target proc as full hand craft twink brawler!!!But do you have the same mitigation and avoidance between a Fabled geared brawler and a Mastercrafted Brawler? Of course not.So higher mitigation and avoidance can let me hit 1 more damage on mobs? Of course not. So what's your point? When I am talking about damage, you changed the point to tanking. Not to say we have ZERO double attack with fabled weapons. Is it reasonable comparing to war/crusader? Once you can get fabled gears, war/crusader is better than brawler. </blockquote> </blockquote>

Couching

07-12-2007, 01:58 PM

<cite>Choombatta wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Hydor wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Choombatta wrote:</cite><blockquote>Couching@Crushbone wrote: <blockquote><cite>Choombatta wrote:</cite><blockquote>So let me get this straight........Brawlers in defensive stance get a total of 16% uncontested avoidance ( from previous posters ).Non-Paladin,Tower or Kite shield users ( not buckler ) get 19% uncontested avoidance ( 20% with block adornment ). So how again is 16% = 1/2 or 1/3 of 19%?Paladins are the only ones who can get their uncontested block to 25%, not all shield using fighters.</blockquote>Oh, so plate tank is POOR that they didn't have double uncontested avoidance than avoidance tank? Hi Devs, come and boost the plate tanks since a noob plate tank is complaining that they didn't have enough uncontested avoidance in this game. PS: Stop being idiot ok? Who care you have double uncontested avoidance than us or not. What we care is that a mitigation tank shouldn't have MORE avoidance than avoidance tank in any condition. </blockquote>Mitigation tanks apparently have a couple of extra pts of uncontested avoidance.</blockquote>That alone should keep you from posting.Do something constructive instead of posting here against brawlers. Oh yes, you mentioned we need some help, sorry. I guess we can do without your support, thank you.If devs know how the game works and what's wrong if there is anything wrong as you posted there is no need for you "correcting" people.If you ve never been in a group/raid that people think "we can't do it because we don't haver a(nother) tank" you have no idea what it might feel like to play a brawler. So, considering this I guess even some people exaggerate a litlle or a lot about some things THEY ARE GOD ****** ENTITLED TO! </blockquote>It is the part in red why I am even posting.So it is ok to make up stuff and post them as facts or to exaggerate the problem?I guess 16% and 19% is a difference of more then just a few pts? Looks like a difference of only 3 to me, but maybe you see a 3rd digit in there no one else sees. </blockquote>3% is big enough since you are mitigation tank. You already have advantage in mitigations. You shouldn't have avoidance advantage as well. End of the story.

Choombatta

07-12-2007, 02:04 PM

So I can go start a post about Brawlers filled with lots of inaccurate information, and I should not expect any Brawlers to come and correct them in the post?Ya right! /snickerThere are plenty of examples of well written and good ideas from some brawlers about what they need and what would help. Unfortunately, there seems to be even more that just want to whine ( yes, when you resort to making up facts and personal attacks to support your argument, it is nothing but a whine )Keep the facts to facts, and you will not see me post in this thread again.Keep posting false information like shield users get 25-30% uncontested avoidance or Brawlers only get 1/3 to 1/2 the uncontested avoidance of other fighters, and I will continue to point out the falsehoods.

Novusod

07-12-2007, 02:08 PM

The problem choombatta is you got your facts Wrong! It is hard to debate you if you miss this point entirely. A brawler can only reach 12% MAX uncontested avoidance. Last I checked my math; 19% is over a third greater than 12%. These are not exagerations to say a plate tank has one third less uncontested avoidance than an avoidance tank. Now to recap the brawler is a broken useless class on raids. Tanking: least mitigatation, least avoidance, and worst agro control = Not a tank DPS: Sub par damage compaired to all other fighters Utility: The least utility of all the other fighters Conclusion: worst tank + low dps + little utility = Broken

Choombatta

07-12-2007, 02:13 PM

Couching@Crushbone wrote: <blockquote><cite>Choombatta wrote:</cite><blockquote>Couching@Crushbone wrote: <blockquote><cite>Madmoon wrote:</cite><blockquote>I think we all agree that brawlers are a great class up to EoF raid content. So whatever solutions we seek, we ourselves have to reflect on the consequences of these changes with the vast, vast majority of the content outside of raids.</blockquote>No, I disagree. For tanking, brawler has less mitigation, less uncontested avoidance and less aggro control comparing to plate tank. It is game mechanics. No matter lv1 or lv70. No matter in noob area to EoF. It didn't change. When did you see a brawler has more mitigation than a plate tank with same level gears? Never ! Since KoS plate relic armor suit has about 1500 mitigation more than leather relic. When did you see a brawler has more uncontested mitigation than a plate tank? Never! Since plate tank can have more uncontested avoidance with shield and brawlers are forced to be in defensive to get it. Even we are in defensive stance, we still have less uncontested avoidance."Can Have" is the key words there, not every tank listens to the MIN/Max crowd, and they still seem to be able to raid tank. Ya, I have seen plate tank with some hand craft armors tanking in Lab. It just sure how powerful plate tank is. When did you see a brawler did in same way? When did you see a brawler has more aggro control than a plate tank? Never, we have only 1 group encounter taunt every 20 sec comparing to most of them with 2 group encounter taunts, passive taunt and AoE taunt. How could brawler has better aggro control? For dps, we are also sup par to other plate tank once you have 40+ aa in raid. It's also game mechanics, no matter in KoS or EoF. Why? Because brawler tree is garbage comparing to war tree/crusader tree. There is almost no progression for brawler. Guardian and zerker have 22% critical hit chances and we have 18%. Guardian and zerker with 60% double attack will deal higher damage when they get better weapons. Brawler can't since our double attack is limited to bare fist. Moreover, guardian can get extra 10% double attack from EoF tree. Let see a simple math.And how much avoidance must the guardian/zerker give up to be able to get those abilities? Alot more then you seem to let on.So what? They still have more than brawlers in offensive stance since we have ZERO. The equation of DR of same quality DW and 1h weapon is that DW = 0.75 *1h. The is the equation how SoE determined 1h and DW. A guardian with 70% double attack with a 85 DR = 144. It's by far better than two 63.5*2 DW weapons for brawlers. Not to say before LU36, guardian can get 86% double attack or even 97% double attack with brimstone hammer from instanced mayong. This is how guardian and zerker can out damage brawler in raid with raid buffers.Again, "can out damage" does not mean "always out damages". Obviously brawlers CAN out damage a Warrior, just not all of them apparently.So what? I did out damage a noob swashy who did 300dps zonewide in raid. Does it mean anything? You should learn your class better rather than complaining since Devs gave you tools to deal more damage than brawlers. If you can't, it's your problem. For AoE damage, War and crusader can get 40% frontal aoe from main hand weapon. It's by far better than brawler 16% aoe. Since the damage our brawler aoe is similar to master craft 1h with coercer and dirge. Any plate tank with better weapon than master craft will deal much more damage than brawler in aoe with group buff in raid. For example, if you have brimstone hammer, your avrage hit can up to 1.6k with coercer and dirge. Without coercer, the average hit is still up to 1.3k ! See the problem now? A smart guardian/zerker with 22% critical hit, 40% aoe attack and 60% double attack will out damage brawler as easy as abc since it's simple math. This would be all good and well IF a guardian/zerker could get all 3 abilities with 8pts in each. Why not? 4 4 8 on 3 line is less than 50 points. Don't tell me you are bugged and can't put 50 points in your war tree.Yes, if the guardian/zerker is willing to forgo the additional defense/riposte AA on bucklers, the Hate buff AA, the DPS buff AA, the Haste AA, the Mitigation AA, and alot of others. Even the min/maxers would not pick 4/4/8 in 3 lines.</blockquote><blockquote>The only excuse is "hi, i didn't spec to that since i want better mitigation or other excuses". Ok, if your guild sucks and you have to choice defensive stance and defense aa to survive in raid, SOMEDAY, when your guild didn't suck, you can spec to what I listed. It's called progression !Yes, My guild and I must suck because we do not fit YOUR idea of what a raid tank should spec. Nice argument there. Of course you ignore the flip side of the excuse "Why would I tank in defensive stance?".Of course, I could say you and your guild must suck if you are always being out-damaged by your MT, but I would not chose to go that route.You can since I don't mind. Why? It's same as a swashy can out damage me and I don't need to be ashamed. It's game mechanics. However, for brawler, we have no progression. A best well geared brawler has the same aoe damage and single target proc as full hand craft twink brawler!!!But do you have the same mitigation and avoidance between a Fabled geared brawler and a Mastercrafted Brawler? Of course not.So higher mitigation and avoidance can let me hit 1 more damage on mobs? Of course not. So what's your point? When I am talking about damage, you changed the point to tanking. Not to say we have ZERO double attack with fabled weapons. Is it reasonable comparing to war/crusader? Once you can get fabled gears, war/crusader is better than brawler. </blockquote> </blockquote> </blockquote>

Choombatta

07-12-2007, 02:14 PM

<cite>Novusod wrote:</cite><blockquote>The problem choombatta is you got your facts Wrong! It is hard to debate you if you miss this point entirely. A brawler can only reach 12% MAX uncontested avoidance. Last I checked my math; 19% is over a third greater than 12%. These are not exagerations to say a plate tank has one third less uncontested avoidance than an avoidance tank. Now to recap the brawler is a broken useless class on raids. Tanking: least mitigatation, least avoidance, and worst agro control = Not a tank DPS: Sub par damage compaired to all other fighters Utility: The least utility of all the other fighters Conclusion: worst tank + low dps + little utility = Broken </blockquote>So you are saying Crouching is wrong when he says the M1 version gives 16%?

PantherXX

07-12-2007, 02:19 PM

<cite>Choombatta wrote:</cite><blockquote><SNIP> It is the part in red why I am even posting.So it is ok to make up stuff and post them as facts or to exaggerate the problem?I guess 16% and 19% is a difference of more then just a few pts? Looks like a difference of only 3 to me, but maybe you see a 3rd digit in there no one else sees. </blockquote> Dude ... you really aren't listening. Warriors get that 19% regardless of what stance they are in. You continue to claim that brawlers "choose" not to have that 16%, but warriors never have to even make the choice. Further, with a raid doing 20-30k dps, a brawler will NEVER hold agro in defensive stance against orange mobs. The reduction in combat skills alone virtually gurantees it. Brawlers need to be hitting the mob to generate agro. So to put it simply, this is the system SOE has developed for brawlers (specifically applied to orange epics where uncontested avoidance is the majority of avoidance):<ul><li>Brawlers generate most of their hate through DPS with limited direct agro control (i.e. taunts)</li><li>Therefore, brawlers must be hitting consistently to generate DPS</li><li>Offensive stance provides a sufficient boost to skills to allow agro generation but results in reduced avoidance, no uncontested avoidance, and reduced mitigation compared to other stances.</li><li>In order to get uncontested avoidance on par other fighters (but still less, however small the difference), brawlers have to give up their ability to consistenly hit the mob and thus lose the ability to hold agro.</li></ul>Combine all those things together, and it is nearly impossible for brawler to tank high end content. And again ... warriors have the choice to get rid of stance penalties, making those stance decisions easier.On the DPS side, I think we are lucky that we see only a few DPS speced Zerkers and virtually no DPS speced Guardians. The fact of the matter is that warriors can put 8 points into melee crit, double attack, and multi-attack at the same time. Sure, they would give up nearly all of the good defensive AA's, but they do have that choice, and it makes a wicked DPS build. I am quite confident that a fully DPS speced warrior and a DPS speced brawler come out very close on the parse with the same buffs, and that same warrior would still be able to MT or OT better than the brawler. That is where balance is lacking. IMHO, we need one of the follwing:<ul><li>Tanking and agro abilities on par with warriors. (TBH, I am not sure I even care about tanking anymore, as it will be nearly impossible to win back the MT spot from the experienced guardians.)</li><li>DPS on par with rogues (they get tanking abilities that put them close to brawlers so why shouldn't we get their DPS)</li><li>Debuffs on par with rogues</li></ul>I also look forward to the changes to fighters in general which Lyndro mentioned to make them more useful on raids outside of the MT slot. That is a problem that affects all fighters ... brawlers just seem more affected by it because they don't fit well in to ANY rolls.

Bladewind

07-12-2007, 02:21 PM

16% is best case for a brawler, 19% is worst case for a plate tank <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Any plate tank can get up to 23% (20% from best shield, 1% from block adorn on shield, 2% from uncontested parry adorns). Further, a paladin can get a 24% boost to their block, bringing them to a bit over 27% at best. A plate tank can enjoy this benefit in any stance while a brawler only has access to their inferior amount in defensive stance. To properly gauge the effect of uncontested avoidance, you also have to consider the total effectvie avoidance in a raid situation. Contested avoidance does not drop to zero, but it does collapse severly (approx. 10% of the on-sheet value). This means you add an effective ~4% to the plate total and an effective ~5% to the brawler total. So, a brawler has about 21% effectvie epic avoidance in defensive stance, 12% in mixed stance (contested drops by a chunk so 1% less is added), and maybe 4% in offensive stance. Meanwhile, a plate tank (pally in paranthesis) can have 27% (32%) effective epic avodiance in defensive stance and 26% (31%) effectvie epic avoidance in offensive stance.So, a plate tank has more effectvie avoidance and mitigation in offenive stance vs a brawler in defensvie stance... The disparity grows from silly to obscene if the brawler changes stances.Does it really make sense that a plate tank is able to have 30% (50%) more avodiance than a brawler when both are defensive? How about the brawler taking a 500% penalty when offensive vs a plate tank taking a ~5% penalty?Beyond the numbers, I have yet to see a reason why plate tanks should get more avoidance than brawlers at all? You've at least agreed that plate tanks have more avoidance. Whyis this acceptable? Why do avoidance tanks get less avodiance than mitigation tanks? It makes no sense. You can quibble about specific numbers, ie, lose sight of the forest through the trees, where people are off by a bit in their estimations, but the fact of the matter is that plate tanks get more mitigation (this is the way it should be) and more avoidance (this is very broken). It does not really matter how broken it is. Brawlers should have more avoidance, period. We have less mitigation always. We should have more avodiance always.Even if your mitigation is hurt by diminishing returns at the upper end, you still have a minimum of 5% more mit in offensive than a a brawler in defensive (this means a brawler takes at least 12% more damage per hit) and a plate tank takes about 73/80 (69/80) of the hits a brawler would (so a brawler is hit 10% (16%) more). Therefore a brawler takes at least 23% (30%) more damage over the course of an encounter than a plate tank. Why is a plate tank hit less often than a brawler? That is jacked up. I can't make it any more clear than that. If a brawler had 5-6% more contested avoidance than a plate tank, the base incoming damage would balance out pretty evenly.

Choombatta

07-12-2007, 02:41 PM

Incorrect.The lowest a Tower or Kite shield using fighter can get is 19%.Using a buckler it is much lower.So 19% is not the worst case for guardian/zerker it is the best case, before adornments.If you want the additional DPS from the STA line, you will not have anywhere near 19%. ( Could hit 18% before Update 36, but not after )So yes, Warriors have to choose between higher uncontested avoidance or more DPS.Seems to be the same choice you are saying Brawlers have to make ( albiet at a lower uncontested avoidance )Again, since it seems to get ignored in almost everyone of my posts.........Do brawlers need a boost? Yes, and they should have MORE uncontested avoidance then other fighters. Not once have you heard me argue the opposite.But keep the facts to facts.

Timaarit

07-12-2007, 02:48 PM

<cite>Choombatta wrote:</cite><blockquote>Incorrect.The lowest a Tower or Kite shield using fighter can get is 19%.Using a buckler it is much lower.So 19% is not the worst case for guardian/zerker it is the best case, before adornments.If you want the additional DPS from the STA line, you will not have anywhere near 19%. ( Could hit 18% before Update 36, but not after )So yes, Warriors have to choose between higher uncontested avoidance or more DPS.Seems to be the same choice you are saying Brawlers have to make ( albiet at a lower uncontested avoidance )Again, since it seems to get ignored in almost everyone of my posts.........Do brawlers need a boost? Yes, and they should have MORE uncontested avoidance then other fighters. Not once have you heard me argue the opposite.But keep the facts to facts.</blockquote>By worst he meant with a tower shield and stances. Tower shield = 19% unconstested avoidance no matter what stance is used. Monk in offensive stance, which is pretty much required when OT:ing, has 0% uncontested avoidance. Even in monks middle stance, the uncontested avoidance is mere 8%.

Bladewind

07-12-2007, 02:49 PM

<cite>Choombatta wrote:</cite><blockquote>Incorrect.The lowest a Tower or Kite shield using fighter can get is 19%.Using a buckler it is much lower.So 19% is not the worst case for guardian/zerker it is the best case, before adornments.If you want the additional DPS from the STA line, you will not have anywhere near 19%. ( Could hit 18% before Update 36, but not after )So yes, Warriors have to choose between higher uncontested avoidance or more DPS.Seems to be the same choice you are saying Brawlers have to make ( albiet at a lower uncontested avoidance )Again, since it seems to get ignored in almost everyone of my posts.........Do brawlers need a boost? Yes, and they should have MORE uncontested avoidance then other fighters. Not once have you heard me argue the opposite.But keep the facts to facts.</blockquote>So you get, what, about 15% uncontested with a buckler but get ~60% double attack and 10% riposte (is this contested?) and reversal? Yeah, you make a trade off, but your worse case is still far better than a brawler best case. A brawler can 'upgrade' from 10% uncontested with an adept 1 defensive stance to 16% uncontested with a master defensive stance. if that brawler goes to a mixed stance, they get a whopping 4-8% depending on stance quality, and ZERO in offensive. Wow, uber. A warrior can go offensive without losing avoidance or go defensive without losing accuracy - on top of enjoying a sizable avoidance edge.I'm glad you agree that brawlers should have more overall avoidance and that brawler dps AAs being based off of static modifiers that cannot be upgraded vs warrior/crusaders having their dps AAs based off of weapon quality is messed up.I'm sorry it took so much bickering to get this point. The exact numbers don't matter all that much because they will change as a function of equipment, skill, and raid makeup. The fundamental problem is brawler performance plataeuing (way too low in the tanking case and a bit too low in the dps case) where plate tank performace continues to increase as better equipment is obtained.

Choombatta

07-12-2007, 02:50 PM

That I cannot and would not argue against Tim.It is accurate and reasonable to want your uncontested avoidance to be as high, if not higher then a tower shield using fighter.

Choombatta

07-12-2007, 02:56 PM

<cite>Bladewind wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Choombatta wrote:</cite><blockquote>Incorrect.The lowest a Tower or Kite shield using fighter can get is 19%.Using a buckler it is much lower.So 19% is not the worst case for guardian/zerker it is the best case, before adornments.If you want the additional DPS from the STA line, you will not have anywhere near 19%. ( Could hit 18% before Update 36, but not after )So yes, Warriors have to choose between higher uncontested avoidance or more DPS.Seems to be the same choice you are saying Brawlers have to make ( albiet at a lower uncontested avoidance )Again, since it seems to get ignored in almost everyone of my posts.........Do brawlers need a boost? Yes, and they should have MORE uncontested avoidance then other fighters. Not once have you heard me argue the opposite.But keep the facts to facts.</blockquote>So you get, what, about 15% uncontested with a buckler but get ~60% double attack and 10% riposte (is this contested?) and reversal? Yeah, you make a trade off, but your worse case is still far better than a brawler best case. </blockquote> 8% riposte with 8 pts in the 4th ability down the STA line ( no idea if it is contested or not ). Can't say for sure about the % of a buckler, as I never use one, but it is much lower then Kite and Tower for sure.But also, to get that 8% riposte with the STA line, you will have to forgo the AE attack or the Critical damage boost, you cannot get all 3.

Bladewind

07-12-2007, 03:21 PM

I think the same goes for all fighters since the major damage boosts are in box 3, and tanking boosts are in box 4. Any tank spec can only take two lines. The problem is that a brawler chooses between:<ol><li>(str) double attack tied to barehand damage (and giving up stats/procs from weapons) and 12% riposte (remember bare hand restriction), end line gives very nice boost to all offense on a crappy 15 min timer (this line rocks for leveling but is obsoleted with high end legendary/fabled weapons)</li><li>(agi) faster casting/reuse timers (but a crappy +defense mod as a tanking boost) and endline is an offtank ability to buff the MT</li><li>(sta) a 140ish damage 24% melee proc and +deflection (end line is teleport to target - useless)</li><li>(wis) an aoe 450ish damage proc that is 16% off of auto attack only, 4% boost to max health, 16 seconds 100% double and multi attack 1x per 3 minutes (our only remotely solid AA line)</li><li>(int) 18% boost to melee crit (all other fighters get 22%), parry bonus (pretty standard), and large mit and melee crit boost if below 30% health (useless for group/raid tanking, ok for soloing)</li></ol>You see, our box 4 abilities are almost identical to other tanks, but our box 3 dps boosts and our end lines are, for the most part, significantly weaker. So, while a baseline brawler with no AAs has a dps edge over a baseline plate tank, our crappy AA choices really hamstring us. This is grossly apparent at the end game where everyone has 100 AAs and high end fabled gear.So, in the dps department, the canges I see as needed for each line are:<ol><li>(str) giving partial benefits from the strength line to brawlers with weapons (along the lines of ~25-30% double attack and 8% riposte)</li><li>(agi) the recent changes make this line pretty solid for a dedictaed dps/offtank brawler. Even as a tank, I am tempted by everything except the end line</li><li>(sta) The proc is weak, boost the damage by 50%, I'd rather see a stoneskine a la DA or tower of stone than the teleport as the end line here.</li><li>(wis) The recent changes made this line pretty good, but the aoe proc needs to be removed and replaced with the 40% multi attack that all other fighters have.</li><li>(int) The melee crit bonus was nerfed when brawlers had a higher base auto attack. We now have the same base auto attack as all fighters. Therefore, we should have the same crit chance in our AA line - put it back to 22%. The end line for this is mostly useless, It would be better if the bonuses were reduced and the ability was made into a proc or short term activatable ability. Tying a low health requirement to a class prone to streak damage just invalidates the usefulness of the ability.</li></ol>

Choombatta

07-12-2007, 03:35 PM

I think the stoneskin ala Tower of Stone would be a great addition to brawlers, and should not be unbalancing in any way.I also agree your STR line bonuses should not be tied to "unarmed" since all the other fighter classes lost weapon requirments with the exception of ranged and shield ( and apparently horse too for Crusaders ).Give Brawlers a higher uncontested avoidance, the stoneskin, and remove the unarmed requirment. I would fully support those changes for the brawlers.

tt66

07-12-2007, 07:43 PM

<cite>Choombatta wrote:</cite><blockquote>I think the stoneskin ala Tower of Stone would be a great addition to brawlers, and should not be unbalancing in any way.I also agree your STR line bonuses should not be tied to "unarmed" since all the other fighter classes lost weapon requirments with the exception of ranged and shield ( and apparently horse too for Crusaders ).Give Brawlers a higher uncontested avoidance, the stoneskin, and remove the unarmed requirment. I would fully support those changes for the brawlers.</blockquote>Well that fills my heart with untold happiness. Woo and, indeed, yay.

Raidi Sovin'faile

07-13-2007, 12:09 AM

There's a hitch about Brawler uncontested avoidance that some people might not realize. It says "up to" 16% uncontested. When they gave Brawlers uncontested avoidance they said outright that it will only kick in IF your avoidance falls BELOW that mark. Now, even if we are generous to apply this only to Deflection, the extra avoidance coming from Defense skill and Parry will sit around maybe 35-40% normally, and thus around 3.5-4% against epics. This is assuming they mean Deflection and not ALL avoidance. If they mean ALL avoidance, then we are lookin' at 16% MAX EVER. And comparing to what a non-defense spec'd tank can do is outrageous. If a Crusader isn't using at least a Kite shield, they are just messing around. And a Warrior in Buckler has other benefits along with it. An offtanking warrior (our direct competition), can spec down Agi and Wisdom for massive AE dps/aggro AND offensive stance with zero loss in avoidance, let alone uncontested. This comes with a Tsunami effect too, making Monks ENTIRELY useless. Hell, Offensive stance penalty removal is overkill anyways... that level of avoidance isn't going to help much (although it helps out more than a Brawler if his 16% is truly what we have maxed out). A Crusader could be in that same spot with tons of AEs, Amends on a Warlock or using Deathmarch, sitting in offensive with maxed out uncontested avoidance. By comparison, a Brawler, to get ANY uncontested avoidance, has to reduce his ability to hit the target... thus, unable to hold aggro EVEN SINGLE TARGET. Even then, he has less uncontested avoidance, and of course less mitigation. And these don't even have to be EoF Epics here... offtanking Epic ADDS rarely end up fully debuffed like the main target does, so they are often hitting for NEAR max damage, at NEAR max effectiveness, and have NEARLY full defenses. A good OFFTANK HAS to have offensive aggro control, and still be able to withstand the hard hits. It's almost harder than the main boss. Brawlers REALLY need a work over to compete against this.

PaganSaint

07-13-2007, 12:36 AM

Warriors will not be spec'd for Agi/Wis. Str/Sta and either Agi, which to benefit from they are giving up 8% uncontested avoidance and a straight 8% on all incoming melee damage to riposte (damage which equals hate) or taking the 8% uncontested avoidance and extra hate generation and taking Int for the haste/recovery/casting speed teir2 ability.The biggest problem between the uncontested avoidance's is the fact that deflection is not entirely uncontested. As it is only about one third to three fifths of the deflection is uncontested. Then you add in the two bracelet adornments for an additional 4% total uncontested, then you get into the contested avoidance. Which even though the numbers look great, they only are one tenth effective.Lowest versus raid mob avoidance of any of the fighters. As of right now Rogues can have more uncontested avoidance potentially than brawlers. They have to sacrifice alot of damage output to achieve that, but they can. By no means am I calling for a nerf to their avoidance, if they want to tank spec, go for it, be more unique with your class. What I am calling for is to make deflection completely uncontested. The same as block. But to do this and keep the number at a level where usinga brawler to tank doesn't become mandatory, remove all plus deflection skill modifiers from everything but the brawler stances.

PantherXX

07-13-2007, 12:48 AM

I cannot say with certainty, but I beleive any of the abilities/adornments that say "will parry/riposte/block x% of attacks" provide uncontested avoidance. Hence the 2% parry adornments are uncontested. As such, I beleive the riposte AA would also be uncontested. Contested avoidance is written as a plus to the skill, i.e. +7 parry adornments. The uncontested avoidance does not directly add together, but for the numbers we are talking about:<ul><li>Assume buckler is 10% block (someone correct me here if you know)</li><li>8% uncontested riposte</li><li>So ... 90% of attacks get by block and 92% of those get past riposte. Therefore 0.9*0.92 = 0.828 = 83% of attacks land, giving a total of about 17% riposte. So buckler doesn't really reduce uncontested avoidance by all that much. (If my assumptions are correct.)</li></ul>

Besual

07-13-2007, 03:39 AM

<cite>PantherXX wrote:</cite><blockquote>I cannot say with certainty, but I beleive any of the abilities/adornments that say "will parry/riposte/block x% of attacks" provide uncontested avoidance. Hence the 2% parry adornments are uncontested. As such, I beleive the riposte AA would also be uncontested. Contested avoidance is written as a plus to the skill, i.e. +7 parry adornments. The uncontested avoidance does not directly add together, but for the numbers we are talking about:<ul><li>Assume buckler is 10% block (someone correct me here if you know)</li><li>8% uncontested riposte</li><li>So ... 90% of attacks get by block and 92% of those get past riposte. Therefore 0.9*0.92 = 0.828 = 83% of attacks land, giving a total of about 17% riposte. So buckler doesn't really reduce uncontested avoidance by all that much. (If my assumptions are correct.)</li></ul></blockquote> Buckler is 3% block.

MadLordOfMilk

07-13-2007, 03:41 AM

I think PantherXX meant with the warrior STA line spec.

PaganSaint

07-13-2007, 03:42 AM

No. Its not. Its around 8.5 with the badge of service(what i had on my inquis) festering flesh buckler is around 9%. Add the adornment to that and you have about 10%. EDIT: the warrior Sta AA line no longer boosts block, but only riposte, you gain the same uncontested but now you do damage for all of the added avoidance, instead of only half like it was.

MadLordOfMilk

07-13-2007, 03:48 AM

Ah, didn't know about that particular change - I haven't really kept up to date with all the different lines that got changed along w/the removal of wpn requirements x_x

Nerill

07-13-2007, 03:58 AM

Ugh ! Exaggerating about our problems is really not a great way to get fixed. <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Don't worry. Our class is very screwed up and there really is no need to lose credibility by posting mis-information or "exaggerating" about our problems.

tt66

07-13-2007, 05:18 AM

Banzai@Unrest wrote: <blockquote>Ugh ! Exaggerating about our problems is really not a great way to get fixed. <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Don't worry. Our class is very screwed up and there really is no need to lose credibility by posting mis-information or "exaggerating" about our problems. </blockquote> Option A) : Dev wanders into a thread, sees somebody posted "12%" where it should have been "15%". Option B) : Dev wanders into a thread, sees four pages of people yelling at each other about "misinformation", "corrections" and "falsehoods". Which option do you think it going to make the Devs least likely to pay attention to the thread? Seriously. Let's just move on. And try to fix this class.

ganjookie

07-13-2007, 05:43 PM

<cite>tt66 wrote:</cite><blockquote>Banzai@Unrest wrote: <blockquote>Ugh ! Exaggerating about our problems is really not a great way to get fixed. <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Don't worry. Our class is very screwed up and there really is no need to lose credibility by posting mis-information or "exaggerating" about our problems. </blockquote> Option A) : Dev wanders into a thread, sees somebody posted "12%" where it should have been "15%". Option B) : Dev wanders into a thread, sees four pages of people yelling at each other about "misinformation", "corrections" and "falsehoods". Which option do you think it going to make the Devs least likely to pay attention to the thread? Seriously. Let's just move on. And try to fix this class. </blockquote>Option C) : Dev starts to log on to forums, sees something shiny and wanders somewhere else.

Couching

07-15-2007, 02:07 PM

<cite>Choombatta wrote:</cite><blockquote> I am not trying to pick apart your arguments, and I even said earlier I agreed that brawlers needed something.But the posting of completely inaccurate info ( Shield fighters get 25-30% uncontested block ) is not the way to do it.The developers know how the game works, and trying to convince them that something that is not accurate as a basis for changing your class will never work. The developers know that fighters can get at best 20% uncontested block ( with adornments ) and that Paladins only can get up to 25%, but no one can get 30% block without the new Warden AA temp ability ( which the warden has to be standing on you to benefit from ).Again to make myself clear......The best way to get changes in your class is to state, without exaggeration, the problems you see in your class. It is the exaggerations that will bite you in the [I cannot control my vocabulary].</blockquote>Plate tank can get 19% uncontested avoidance from tower shield, 1% from shield adornment, 4% from wrist adornment, 8% from riposte aa and 5% from SoD reward. The total number is 37% in any stance. We have to stick in defensive stance to get 16% uncontested avoidance. Of course, we can get extra 4% from wrist adornment but it's better for us to get mitigation adornment. We can get extra 2% mitigations from wrist adornment. Correct me if i am wrong. This game is really broken that plate tank have roughly double uncontested avoidance than avoidance tank.<img src="/smilies/e78feac27fa924c4d0ad6cf5819f3554.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> EDIT: If you are in high end guild, you can get extra 5% block from hate bp. So you can have 42% uncontested avoidance.

Choombatta

07-16-2007, 01:02 PM

Couching@Crushbone wrote: <blockquote><cite>Choombatta wrote:</cite><blockquote> I am not trying to pick apart your arguments, and I even said earlier I agreed that brawlers needed something.But the posting of completely inaccurate info ( Shield fighters get 25-30% uncontested block ) is not the way to do it.The developers know how the game works, and trying to convince them that something that is not accurate as a basis for changing your class will never work. The developers know that fighters can get at best 20% uncontested block ( with adornments ) and that Paladins only can get up to 25%, but no one can get 30% block without the new Warden AA temp ability ( which the warden has to be standing on you to benefit from ).Again to make myself clear......The best way to get changes in your class is to state, without exaggeration, the problems you see in your class. It is the exaggerations that will bite you in the [I cannot control my vocabulary].</blockquote>Plate tank can get 19% uncontested avoidance from tower shield, 1% from shield adornment, 4% from wrist adornment, 8% from riposte aa and 5% from SoD reward. The total number is 37% in any stance. We have to stick in defensive stance to get 16% uncontested avoidance. Of course, we can get extra 4% from wrist adornment but it's better for us to get mitigation adornment. We can get extra 2% mitigations from wrist adornment. Correct me if i am wrong. This game is really broken that plate tank have roughly double uncontested avoidance than avoidance tank.<img src="/smilies/e78feac27fa924c4d0ad6cf5819f3554.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> EDIT: If you are in high end guild, you can get extra 5% block from hate bp. So you can have 42% uncontested avoidance. </blockquote>Yes and No. 19% base uncontested block avoidance for a kite or tower shield. Can add an adornment to the shield that will raise it 1% to a total of 20% uncontested block. The 2% wrist adornment is a parry adornment ( can you even stack 2 of them for a total of 4% ). The riposte AA gives 8% riposte ( which cannot be used with a Tower shield or Kite shield, only a Buckler ). The Riposte adornment for some weapons gives a 2% chance to riposte. Now, where you are confusing the equation.....you cannot add those percents straight to each other and say someone with all 3 possibilities has 24% uncontested avoidance ( 20% block, 2% parry, 2% riposte if using a Tower Shield ). That only works if the percent is directly related to the roll. So, for example... This person would have 20% uncontested block. This person would have 2% uncontested parry. This person would have 2% uncontested riposte. Each check is seperate from the others, so it is not a straight addition of the percentages. The person would first have a 1 in 5 chance of making a successful block. If that failed.......then the person would have a 1 in 50 chance of parrying the blow. If that failed.......then the person would have a 1 in 50 chance of riposting the blow.

Couching

07-16-2007, 02:04 PM

<cite>Choombatta wrote:</cite><blockquote>Couching@Crushbone wrote: <blockquote><cite>Choombatta wrote:</cite><blockquote> I am not trying to pick apart your arguments, and I even said earlier I agreed that brawlers needed something.But the posting of completely inaccurate info ( Shield fighters get 25-30% uncontested block ) is not the way to do it.The developers know how the game works, and trying to convince them that something that is not accurate as a basis for changing your class will never work. The developers know that fighters can get at best 20% uncontested block ( with adornments ) and that Paladins only can get up to 25%, but no one can get 30% block without the new Warden AA temp ability ( which the warden has to be standing on you to benefit from ).Again to make myself clear......The best way to get changes in your class is to state, without exaggeration, the problems you see in your class. It is the exaggerations that will bite you in the [I cannot control my vocabulary].</blockquote>Plate tank can get 19% uncontested avoidance from tower shield, 1% from shield adornment, 4% from wrist adornment, 8% from riposte aa and 5% from SoD reward. The total number is 37% in any stance. We have to stick in defensive stance to get 16% uncontested avoidance. Of course, we can get extra 4% from wrist adornment but it's better for us to get mitigation adornment. We can get extra 2% mitigations from wrist adornment. Correct me if i am wrong. This game is really broken that plate tank have roughly double uncontested avoidance than avoidance tank.<img src="/smilies/e78feac27fa924c4d0ad6cf5819f3554.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> EDIT: If you are in high end guild, you can get extra 5% block from hate bp. So you can have 42% uncontested avoidance. </blockquote>Yes and No. 19% base uncontested block avoidance for a kite or tower shield. Can add an adornment to the shield that will raise it 1% to a total of 20% uncontested block. The 2% wrist adornment is a parry adornment ( can you even stack 2 of them for a total of 4% ). The riposte AA gives 8% riposte ( which cannot be used with a Tower shield or Kite shield, only a Buckler ). The Riposte adornment for some weapons gives a 2% chance to riposte. Now, where you are confusing the equation.....you cannot add those percents straight to each other and say someone with all 3 possibilities has 24% uncontested avoidance ( 20% block, 2% parry, 2% riposte if using a Tower Shield ). That only works if the percent is directly related to the roll. So, for example... This person would have 20% uncontested block. This person would have 2% uncontested parry. This person would have 2% uncontested riposte. Each check is seperate from the others, so it is not a straight addition of the percentages. The person would first have a 1 in 5 chance of making a successful block. If that failed.......then the person would have a 1 in 50 chance of parrying the blow. If that failed.......then the person would have a 1 in 50 chance of riposting the blow. </blockquote>Yo are missing 5% block from SoD reward and 5% block from hate bp. In other word, a plate tank can get 30% uncontested block from tower/kite shield with 4% parry uncontested avoidance. Or 20% uncontested block from buckler, 4% parry, and 8% riposte. Either way is by far better than monk 16% uncontested avoidance+4% parry in defensive stance or straight 0% +4% in offensive stance. In fact, for brawler, mitigation adornment is better. Though, 134 mitigations is about 1%~2% mitigation benefit for brawler. That why I can't understand the logic of Devs. Avoidance tank has less mitigation than mitigation tank since we are avoidance tank. But why avoidance tank has less uncontested avoidance than mitigation tank as well?

Timaarit

07-16-2007, 05:11 PM

That is because the devs do not play crappy classes themselves so they see no need to improve them.

Novusod

07-16-2007, 06:32 PM

Couching@Crushbone wrote: <blockquote>But why avoidance tank has less uncontested avoidance than mitigation tank as well? </blockquote>That is because brawlers aren't tanks. All this debate over uncontested this and contested that is ultamately pointless because the brawler still is prone to spike damage and terrible agro control. It is really a no-win situation because of the "hit me - hate me" rule where the higher you get avoidance up the worse the agro control will be. A mob has to land hits to build up agro so a tank that is based on avoidance is basically an imposibility from the get go. There is no such thing as an avoidance tank. A tank has to tank hits. That is the very definition of a tank. I really think the debate here really needs to switch away from this line of thinking. If a dev comes in and sees this that a consensus is being reached that brawlers need more uncontested avoidance that would be very bad. Changing avoidance is not going to make brawlers more wanted in raiding guilds which is what the real issue is about. The brawler needs to be fixed from the point of view of improveing the entire raid force as whole. Taking a singlar look from the brawler's point of view on problems that only affect brawlers amounts to little more than whining. What are raid forces looking for when taking on high end EoF content? The answer is bards and healers. The brawler needs to take on a utility role to be usefull. Here are some suggestions I think would actually make a world difference: Upgrate Intercede: Brawler will no longer take any damage when using intercede which effectively turns the brawler into a spot healer. Amount of damage blocked shows up on combat logs. AoE intercede: Same thing really. All damage to the group is absorbed for one second while the brawler takes no damage. Upgrade to self buff: changed to single target buff that can be cast on allies at the cost of one concentration slot each. Bruiser specific upgrade: group (AE) version of stone deaf. The group can absorb three magical attacks. Monk specific upgrage: group (AE) version of Tsunami. Bonus monk upgrade: Mend will now also restore 10% of target's mana power. These are the type of changes that will really make brawlers wanted on raids.

EQ2Luv

07-16-2007, 10:14 PM

<cite>Novusod wrote:</cite><blockquote>That is because brawlers aren't tanks. All this debate over uncontested this and contested that is ultamately pointless because the brawler still is prone to spike damage and terrible agro control. It is really a no-win situation because of the "hit me - hate me" rule where the higher you get avoidance up the worse the agro control will be. A mob has to land hits to build up agro so a tank that is based on avoidance is basically an imposibility from the get go. There is no such thing as an avoidance tank. A tank has to tank hits. That is the very definition of a tank. I really think the debate here really needs to switch away from this line of thinking. If a dev comes in and sees this that a consensus is being reached that brawlers need more uncontested avoidance that would be very bad. Changing avoidance is not going to make brawlers more wanted in raiding guilds which is what the real issue is about. The brawler needs to be fixed from the point of view of improveing the entire raid force as whole. Taking a singlar look from the brawler's point of view on problems that only affect brawlers amounts to little more than whining. What are raid forces looking for when taking on high end EoF content? The answer is bards and healers. The brawler needs to take on a utility role to be usefull. Here are some suggestions I think would actually make a world difference: </blockquote> Utility on raids would be nice, but I also want reasonable tanking capabilities. Avoidance-based damage mitigation might not fit as cleanly into the 'tank' metaphor, but we are fighters. We do have taunts. We are supposed to be able to be the focus of attack and survive. If you find me a dev who would refute this, I will delete my brawlers. The fact is, we do less dps than scouts but scouts tank better than us. I dont want them to throw us some utility to make up for this. I want us to be able to tank. You might be satisified with utility, but I made my brawler because I wanted a tank with the brawler feel. I don't think its simply 'whining' to want a class that functions in high end raids the same way they function in the rest of the game, and the way they were designed to function. Just because you would be satisfied with some utility, doesn't mean the rest of us don't have the right to speak about what we want and expect in the brawler class. Bards dont suit me, thats why I made a fighter. Why can't I be a fighter in a raid?

liveja

07-16-2007, 11:12 PM

<cite>Novusod wrote:</cite><blockquote>It is really a no-win situation because of the "hit me - hate me" rule where the higher you get avoidance up the worse the agro control will be. A mob has to land hits to build up agro so a tank that is based on avoidance is basically an imposibility from the get go. There is no such thing as an avoidance tank. A tank has to tank hits. That is the very definition of a tank.</blockquote>Just tossin' out a sudden idea here, but what if Brawlers, & Brawlers alone, generated threat from NOT getting hit? I mean, look at all the martial arts action movies where the agile Martial Arts Hero bobs & weaves & ducks, never breaks a sweat, & never gets hit, all the while the huge hulking Brick Villain gets angrier & angrier because the little guy won't stand & fight?What would be the consequences of such a change? Would it be "bad" for the game? Would it even be "enough" of a boost to be seriously considered worthy? I don't know, I'm just suggesting, so if it's truly a totally gag-inducing idea, fine, but at this point I'm not sure why it would be.

Bladewind

07-17-2007, 12:26 AM

<cite>Novusod wrote:</cite><blockquote>Couching@Crushbone wrote: <blockquote>But why avoidance tank has less uncontested avoidance than mitigation tank as well? </blockquote>That is because brawlers aren't tanks. </blockquote>Uh, what? Let's just live in denial of all of our tanking abilities, our presence in the fighter archetype, and, oh, every dev post ever made regarding the role of a brawler... Seriously, it sounds like you are saying because we are broken now, we were never intended as tanks, but as buffers - a role we have never filled.Brawler's don't even rely upon being hit for hate. We accrue hate by landing hits a la our offensive hate proc. Our hate disadvantage comes from being forced to tank raid content in defensive due to the poor implementation of uncontested avoidance. Since we cannot go offensive like other tanks, we hit the mob much less (and proc hate much less). The aggro issue really is not that bad, but being forced into defensive when other fighters can go offensive exaggerates it.Like many others here, I want my tank to be able to tank. It's that simple. I'd love to have added utility on top of that (we do have the least utility of the fighters after all), but we really should be able to tank all content in game to roughly the same ability as plate tanks. The main reason we cannot is because we have less uncontested avoidance in all situations, and that weak avoidance is further restricted by stances. The stance restriction has a cascading effect that handicaps our ability to generate hate when tanking.

Bladewind

07-17-2007, 12:28 AM

<cite>livejazz wrote:</cite><blockquote>Just tossin' out a sudden idea here, but what if Brawlers, & Brawlers alone, generated threat from NOT getting hit? I mean, look at all the martial arts action movies where the agile Martial Arts Hero bobs & weaves & ducks, never breaks a sweat, & never gets hit, all the while the huge hulking Brick Villain gets angrier & angrier because the little guy won't stand & fight?What would be the consequences of such a change? Would it be "bad" for the game? Would it even be "enough" of a boost to be seriously considered worthy? I don't know, I'm just suggesting, so if it's truly a totally gag-inducing idea, fine, but at this point I'm not sure why it would be.</blockquote> This has been asked for repeatedly and in many versions over the last year. The most popular request was a self buff that would have a chance to proc hate off of a successful deflection, since deflection is brawler only. This meshes well with deflection being made wholly uncontested, so the hate on deflect proc woudl remain viable in the raiding sphere.

Zabjade

07-17-2007, 12:44 AM

<cite>livejazz wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Novusod wrote:</cite><blockquote>It is really a no-win situation because of the "hit me - hate me" rule where the higher you get avoidance up the worse the agro control will be. A mob has to land hits to build up agro so a tank that is based on avoidance is basically an imposibility from the get go. There is no such thing as an avoidance tank. A tank has to tank hits. That is the very definition of a tank.</blockquote>Just tossin' out a sudden idea here, but what if Brawlers, & Brawlers alone, generated threat from NOT getting hit? I mean, look at all the martial arts action movies where the agile Martial Arts Hero bobs & weaves & ducks, never breaks a sweat, & never gets hit, all the while the huge hulking Brick Villain gets angrier & angrier because the little guy won't stand & fight?What would be the consequences of such a change? Would it be "bad" for the game? Would it even be "enough" of a boost to be seriously considered worthy? I don't know, I'm just suggesting, so if it's truly a totally gag-inducing idea, fine, but at this point I'm not sure why it would be.</blockquote>I agree that Brawlers should generate our hate throught the dodge/riposte/etc, it only makes logical since. We just need the buffs to survive the occasional hit, and extra avoidance to be hit less often. (Stances, merge our two temporary Mitigation buffs remove the stun keep the root if needed, but have said root stop the Dreaded Knockback that NPC's have that PC's can't have) Also have Devastation Fist work on a percentage or hard number when dealing with a Heroic or Epic mobs. When Devastation Fist was added there where few if any Heroics outside of the deep dungeons or nameds in overland zones. Now they are everywhere and Devestation Fist can only clear the occasional secondary mob or writ mob. They don't have to crank up the damage to Harm Touch or the Sol Ro Miracle levels but make it useful again!This view might be less popular with some, but for our double attack AA skill I say remove the bare fisted requirement all together, if they want to lower the score for that, then fine. Fist Wraps are the way to be "bare handed" and still have stats if you ask me, because it is more a hand protection then a weapon, so you can still do your tradeskills and earn a RP living without having caloused hands only good for fighting. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />The last paragraph is my opinion, the rest are necessities.

Nerill

07-17-2007, 02:07 AM

<cite>livejazz wrote:</cite><blockquote>Just tossin' out a sudden idea here, but what if Brawlers, & Brawlers alone, generated threat from NOT getting hit? I mean, look at all the martial arts action movies where the agile Martial Arts Hero bobs & weaves & ducks, never breaks a sweat, & never gets hit, all the while the huge hulking Brick Villain gets angrier & angrier because the little guy won't stand & fight?What would be the consequences of such a change? Would it be "bad" for the game? Would it even be "enough" of a boost to be seriously considered worthy? I don't know, I'm just suggesting, so if it's truly a totally gag-inducing idea, fine, but at this point I'm not sure why it would be.</blockquote>Yes, this idea has been suggested several times before. However, for trying to add a positive suggestion even if you did not know it had been suggested already in the past ..... +10 DKP for you ! <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Novusod

07-17-2007, 02:33 AM

<cite>EQ2Luv wrote:</cite><blockquote> Utility on raids would be nice, but I also want reasonable tanking capabilities. Avoidance-based damage mitigation might not fit as cleanly into the 'tank' metaphor, but we are fighters. We do have taunts. So do swashbucklers and Brigands <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> We are supposed to be able to be the focus of attack and survive. If you find me a dev who would refute this, I will delete my brawlers. The existance of our detaunts is pretty much as close to a dev refutation as we are going to get. If we could take on the buisness end of epics and survive we wouldn't need it. No other fighter has a detaunt. The writing on the wall is clearly agaist you. The fact is, we do less dps than scouts but scouts tank better than us. I dont want them to throw us some utility to make up for this. I want us to be able to tank. You might be satisified with utility, but I made my brawler because I wanted a tank with the brawler feel. I don't think its simply 'whining' to want a class that functions in high end raids the same way they function in the rest of the game, and the way they were designed to function. It is whining because the idea of a brawler tanking raids is simply a selfish endorsement of ego over the greater good that utility would bring to the whole. It is along the same line of thinking with bards whining for more dps. Just because you would be satisfied with some utility, doesn't mean the rest of us don't have the right to speak about what we want and expect in the brawler class. Bards dont suit me, thats why I made a fighter. Why can't I be a fighter in a raid? </blockquote>In an ideal world you would be right to say that all tanks should be equally viable. In heroic instances you can tank all you want but tanking EoF raids in leather has become untenable at this stage of the game. Guardians and zerkers are already solidly locked in that role and forcing them out now would upset a lot of guilds. Bottom line is there are 6 tank classes and only one main tank and one off tank. In a min/max strategy that raiding guilds use to get their high end kills only the best can fill a particular role. The brawler has to be made the best at something or the whole class will fall into irrelevance when RoK comes out. I can tell you right now that tanking will not be it. Brawlers won't out dps rangers and warlocks anytime soon either. That means utility is the only solution and lots of it to become the best non-bard utility there is and as I suggested to specialize in the best damage control utility of any class.

Zabjade

07-17-2007, 02:54 AM

<cite>Novusod wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>EQ2Luv wrote:</cite><blockquote> Utility on raids would be nice, but I also want reasonable tanking capabilities. Avoidance-based damage mitigation might not fit as cleanly into the 'tank' metaphor, but we are fighters. We do have taunts. So do swashbucklers and Brigands <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> We are supposed to be able to be the focus of attack and survive. If you find me a dev who would refute this, I will delete my brawlers. The existance of our detaunts is pretty much as close to a dev refutation as we are going to get. If we could take on the buisness end of epics and survive we wouldn't need it. No other fighter has a detaunt. The writing on the wall is clearly agaist you. Then it is time to Kick the wall down. We need to have them fix the detaunts and make them something else. The fact is, we do less dps than scouts but scouts tank better than us. I dont want them to throw us some utility to make up for this. I want us to be able to tank. You might be satisified with utility, but I made my brawler because I wanted a tank with the brawler feel. I don't think its simply 'whining' to want a class that functions in high end raids the same way they function in the rest of the game, and the way they were designed to function. It is whining because the idea of a brawler tanking raids is simply a selfish endorsement of ego over the greater good that utility would bring to the whole. It is along the same line of thinking with bards whining for more dps. No it is not whining, it is wanting a fix to what is obviously broken. The ability should be there, should we desire to Tank, as we are a fighter class. This isn't an Ego trip just an honest assesment of our problems. The reason for our troubles is that none of the Major developers apparently play a monk as a main. Just some minor ones who don't even post in the forums. </blockquote><blockquote> Just because you would be satisfied with some utility, doesn't mean the rest of us don't have the right to speak about what we want and expect in the brawler class. Bards dont suit me, thats why I made a fighter. Why can't I be a fighter in a raid? </blockquote>In an ideal world you would be right to say that all tanks should be equally viable. In heroic instances you can tank all you want but tanking EoF raids in leather has become untenable at this stage of the game. Guardians and zerkers are already solidly locked in that role and forcing them out now would upset a lot of guilds. Bottom line is there are 6 tank classes and only one main tank and one off tank. In a min/max strategy that raiding guilds use to get their high end kills only the best can fill a particular role. The brawler has to be made the best at something or the whole class will fall into irrelevance when RoK comes out. I can tell you right now that tanking will not be it. Brawlers won't out dps rangers and warlocks anytime soon either. That means utility is the only solution and lots of it to become the best non-bard utility there is and as I suggested to specialize in the best damage control utility of any class. </blockquote>No one is forcing anyone out of any role we just want to be a viable choice for the role we were designed for. As for leather if avoidanceis ever fixed it would be all a monk would need. I don't care about Out-DPSing a scout, but we should have some thing to bring to the table.Unless they come up with Proc ward gear for monks.

liveja

07-17-2007, 09:29 AM

<cite>Novusod wrote:</cite><blockquote>In an ideal world you would be right to say that all tanks should be equally viable. </blockquote>Since you agree, I'm not quite sure why you argued the point. Besides, I'm pretty sure that the vast majority of EQ2 design philosophy seems to agree with this "ideal world" notion, even if the actual in-game results don't necessarily work that way.I'm still waiting for someone to explain to me why Brawlers have a detaunt in the first place. For that matter, I'm still waiting for someone to explain to me why Rogues should be able to tank as well as we do, which seems to be at least as well as Brawlers.

Raidi Sovin'faile

07-17-2007, 10:22 AM

The detaunt is just another form of added DPS. If you can DPS without pulling aggro and having to FD, then you can end up doing more DPS overall. And with a pure DPS spec, yes.. you could end up pulling aggro on a single target. Keep in mind that Brawlers are still very high Fighter DPS. We are beaten on parses because of AE damage fights, not because of solo target fights. I play a Bruiser, so my burst damage might be a little different, but when I unload all my CA's coupled with Knockout Combination, I can pull down some fairly nasty single target aggro. When I use the detaunt proc, I'm basically negating the aggro from the Knockout Combo damage altogether, and I rarely pull aggro anymore. All fighters got some kind of DPS upgrades in their lines. Brawlers got a detaunt because ours is all stacked onto one target and we tend to pull aggro that way (regardless if we parse higher or not).

Timaarit

07-17-2007, 11:23 AM

Kaisoku@Mistmoore wrote: <blockquote> I play a Bruiser, so my burst damage might be a little different, but when I unload all my CA's coupled with Knockout Combination, I can pull down some fairly nasty single target aggro. When I use the detaunt proc, I'm basically negating the aggro from the Knockout Combo damage altogether, and I rarely pull aggro anymore. </blockquote>Of course. When I get to raid in MMIS with my monk, I generally end up tanking the chaperons. Unless necro uses lifeburn or wizard manaburn. Or the guardian just wants to tank it and uses Reinforcement. This I can do even without Crane Flock. With Crane Flock I also parse 25% more than the next one. But it is just one mob and the fight lasts <10 seconds and it has very little effect on my zonewide DPS. As for the monks detaunt line, I did end up pulling aggro on one named last time in MMIS and had to FD even, but then I also did win the parse (looking at the DPS, I parsed what I normally did while the others parsed significantly less for some reason). I dont have the line because besides that time, I never peel with my monk, my DPS is just too little for all the aggro our MT gets. And unless I get well over 25% more DPS, I will not pick up that line either, it is just plain useless for a monk, probably some devs idea of a joke.

Kaoru

07-17-2007, 01:48 PM

<cite>Novusod wrote:</cite><blockquote>EQ2Luv wrote:In an ideal world you would be right to say that all tanks should be equally viable. In heroic instances you can tank all you want but tanking EoF raids in leather has become untenable at this stage of the game. Guardians and zerkers are already solidly locked in that role and forcing them out now would upset a lot of guilds. Bottom line is there are 6 tank classes and only one main tank and one off tank. In a min/max strategy that raiding guilds use to get their high end kills only the best can fill a particular role. The brawler has to be made the best at something or the whole class will fall into irrelevance when RoK comes out. I can tell you right now that tanking will not be it. Brawlers won't out dps rangers and warlocks anytime soon either. That means utility is the only solution and lots of it to become the best non-bard utility there is and as I suggested to specialize in the best damage control utility of any class. </blockquote>I don't think we are going to have to wait until RoK comes out, our future is pretty clear cut atm.

belwulf

07-17-2007, 01:54 PM

Clearly the topic is not wether the bralwer subclass needs changing; but what classes will the bralwers have.I think the game creaters see that there is major raid and utility problems for the bralwers. If they dont fix this problem soon there is going to be no bralwers left. The bralwers i come across are [Removed for Content] off and creating new alt classes because there raid function is SLIM TO NONE!

Freliant

07-17-2007, 02:00 PM

Sigh, is this thread (along with many others about brawlers) still going?It was established that brawler classes ARE working as intended for all non-EoF raid content. For EoF Raids, there needs to be some changes made that can make the monk class more viable to have in the raid. This could be, like what has been mentioned a million times before, the ability to grant the group AoE dodge (instead of body like water, "body like Ocean" that grants everyone in brawler's group the ability to dodge one incoming AoE attack, with a 20-30 second recast timer. Or some other usefull ability.But please, as a sanity request, stop overinflating the post since it will only hinder both Dev and player inquiries as to what exactly is wrong. If you go back and re-read the whole thread, you will notice that it weaves in and out of arguments that have absolutely no relavance to what the brawler's goal is: To be a more usefull High-End raid class.To shorten this entire thread, let me make a recap of what the entire argument of the last 12 pages has been:Brawler request: To be a more viable class in EoF+ RaidsNon-Brawler complaints: Brawlers are much too good in other content to deserve an upgrade (not my personal view, so no flaming).Dev response: We are working on something to make all fighters, specially brawlers, more usefull in raids.With that said, please stop with the unneeded further postings on this thread as it will just make it harder to look at the requests, and the responses.

Kaoru

07-17-2007, 02:26 PM

<cite>Freliant wrote:</cite><blockquote>Sigh, is this thread (along with many others about brawlers) still going?It was established that brawler classes ARE working as intended for all non-EoF raid content. For EoF Raids, there needs to be some changes made that can make the monk class more viable to have in the raid. This could be, like what has been mentioned a million times before, the ability to grant the group AoE dodge (instead of body like water, "body like Ocean" that grants everyone in brawler's group the ability to dodge one incoming AoE attack, with a 20-30 second recast timer. Or some other usefull ability.But please, as a sanity request, stop overinflating the post since it will only hinder both Dev and player inquiries as to what exactly is wrong. If you go back and re-read the whole thread, you will notice that it weaves in and out of arguments that have absolutely no relavance to what the brawler's goal is: To be a more usefull High-End raid class.To shorten this entire thread, let me make a recap of what the entire argument of the last 12 pages has been:Brawler request: To be a more viable class in EoF+ RaidsNon-Brawler complaints: Brawlers are much too good in other content to deserve an upgrade (not my personal view, so no flaming).Dev response: We are working on something to make all fighters, specially brawlers, more usefull in raids.With that said, please stop with the unneeded further postings on this thread as it will just make it harder to look at the requests, and the responses.</blockquote>I believe Freliant that you are going to see this (and other threads) continue to grow until the problem is actually fixed, or at least until there is some hard evidence that something is in the works. Such as update/test notes etc. The dev response that was posted can't really be taken as any type of comfort considering we all saw a similar one from Grimwell and his dev that was supposed to know the class and give feedback on our aa's, and failed miserably i might add. Until that time comes people are going to come to the forums and voice their opinions/frustrations/feedback on their current class as it is really the only means we have to vent. And that means yea it's going to go off topic at times.

Novusod

07-17-2007, 02:46 PM

I think this thread would do well to go to 100 pages or more. The brawler as it stands now is falling into irrelevancy as many guilds are moving away from KoS and progressing through EoF as the release date of RoK looms. In allowing the plate tanks to completely dominate EoF the devs have set in motion a total redesign of the brawler's role away from tanking. The players who have brawler mains have a right to demand answers as the devs have dismantled the class over the last 9 months. This thread is about the brawler rising again and for that to happen there needs to be a long process of concensus building.

Couching

07-17-2007, 03:30 PM

Freliant, Brawler didn't work as intended. Also, we didn't work well in non-EoF raids. I have said many times. Brawler has less mitigations, less uncontested avoidance and less aggro control no matter in any content. Are you just blinded that you can't see it? Stop lying to everyone that brawler is fine. No matter in kos or eof, plate tanks have always more mitigations. Don't try to fool everyone that brawler has more mitigations. Also, all plate tanks have 19% uncontested avoidance from tower/kite shield, 1% from shield adornment, 4% from wrist adornment, 5% from SoD weapon and 5% from hate bp. It's 34%. No matter what stance they are, they can have 34% and brawler has 0% in offensive stance. Not to say aggro control, most plate tanks have 2 encounter taunts, passive taunt and different form of aoe taunts. Brawler has only 1 encounter taunt every 20 sec. Since Brawler has less mitigations, less uncontested avoidance and less aggro control no matter in any content than plate tank. How could brawler is fine? It's fine to be a noob but stop lying that brawler is fine. It is simple against game mechanics.

Freliant

07-17-2007, 03:33 PM

Kaoru@Blackburrow wrote: <blockquote>... Until that time comes people are going to come to the forums and voice their opinions/frustrations/feedback on their current class as it is really the only means we have to vent. ... </blockquote> Couching - 16Timaarit - 12Banzai - 9Novusod - 13Pagansaint - 9Bladewind - 15Wildfury - 7Kaoru - 7Total = 88 posts from 8 people = Almost 6 pages (2 shy).40 different posters on this thread. Choombata defending his right to be a good guardian tank had 16 posts, and me trying to keep the thread sane am up to 8 posts., This leave 30 posters with less than 5 posts each. The thread has become overinflated, and its not from alot of brawlers coming to post how mad they are about their role, but mainly from the same few people replying over and over to some mis-informed posters that didn't bother to read the whole thread.Hence, like I said before. Just keep (or edit the OP) a post that states what is the goal, and then the rest can post their /support or their /retort.I don't even want to take a peak that the 30 odd pages of discussion about brawlers in the other forum, but I am sure the same situation has happened there with only a few people doing 50% of the posts, and the rest just trodding along trying to find out what is the main point brawlers are trying to make.. which I neatly put in just one post.

Couching

07-17-2007, 03:41 PM

<cite>Freliant wrote:</cite><blockquote>Kaoru@Blackburrow wrote: <blockquote>... Until that time comes people are going to come to the forums and voice their opinions/frustrations/feedback on their current class as it is really the only means we have to vent. ... </blockquote> Couching - 16Timaarit - 12Banzai - 9Novusod - 13Pagansaint - 9Bladewind - 15Wildfury - 7Kaoru - 7Total = 88 posts from 8 people = Almost 6 pages (2 shy).40 different posters on this thread. Choombata defending his right to be a good guardian tank had 16 posts, and me trying to keep the thread sane am up to 8 posts., This leave 30 posters with less than 5 posts each. The thread has become overinflated, and its not from alot of brawlers coming to post how mad they are about their role, but mainly from the same few people replying over and over to some mis-informed posters that didn't bother to read the whole thread.Hence, like I said before. Just keep (or edit the OP) a post that states what is the goal, and then the rest can post their /support or their /retort.I don't even want to take a peak that the 30 odd pages of discussion about brawlers in the other forum, but I am sure the same situation has happened there with only a few people doing 50% of the posts, and the rest just trodding along trying to find out what is the main point brawlers are trying to make.. which I neatly put in just one post.</blockquote>Another good lying post. LOL You post mis-information of brawler and even complained that people can't correct you? LOL Still, I am waiting to you how brawler is fine comparing to other plate tank since brawler has less mitigation, less uncontested avoidance and less aggro control. Seriously, why don't you just get out this thread since you are just trolling and not even be a brawler. Choombata at least corrected some wrong information of war class. What did you do? Full of lying on your posts. Can't you do something constructive in your real life rather than trolling, lying on brawler thread? <img src="/smilies/0320a00cb4bb5629ab9fc2bc1fcc4e9e.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Freliant

07-17-2007, 03:44 PM

Couching@Crushbone wrote: <blockquote> Freliant, Brawler didn't work as intended. Also, we didn't work well in non-EoF raids. I have said many times. Brawler has less mitigations, less uncontested avoidance and less aggro control no matter in any content. Are you just blinded that you can't see it? Stop lying to everyone that brawler is fine. No matter in kos or eof, plate tanks have always more mitigations. Don't try to fool everyone that brawler has more mitigations. Also, all plate tanks have 19% uncontested avoidance from tower/kite shield, 1% from shield adornment, 4% from wrist adornment, 5% from SoD weapon and 5% from hate bp. It's 34%. No matter what stance they are, they can have 34% and brawler has 0% in offensive stance. Not to say aggro control, most plate tanks have 2 encounter taunts, passive taunt and different form of aoe taunts. Brawler has only 1 encounter taunt every 20 sec. Since Brawler has less mitigations, less uncontested avoidance and less aggro control no matter in any content than plate tank. How could brawler is fine? It's fine to be a noob but stop lying that brawler is fine. It is simple against game mechanics. </blockquote> Solo = Brawler better than any other fighter in survivability and dps.Group = Brawler better than any other fighter in dps, and has descent single target agro control... enough to get the job done at a quicker pace than any other fighter.Raid (pre-EoF) Brawler lent good dps to the group, and could compete with some dps classesRaid (EoF) Brawlers can't do as much dps as other fighters, and cannot tank or lend any noticable buff/debuff that can't be bettered by another class.I didn't argue about mitigation... brawlers wear leather, and hence will always have less mitigation than other fighters. I didn't argue avoidance.. in solo and group content the brawler's avoidance is still better than the other classes. In raid situations is where this gets choppy. And finally, all the stats you have postsed are from a fabled out tank, with all possible adornments and block/defensive boosts. My retort is: a fully fabled out monk with the best gear in the game still cannot tank high-end raid mobs (which is a problem), but put him in a normal group, and put the guardian in a normal group, and the monk will blow away through the dungeon and content, and through solo content at an astounding rate, better than any plate tank. Please explain how in non-raid situations the monk is not working as intended and I will reconcider my posts.

Couching

07-17-2007, 04:03 PM

<cite>Freliant wrote:</cite><blockquote>Couching@Crushbone wrote: <blockquote> Freliant, Brawler didn't work as intended. Also, we didn't work well in non-EoF raids. I have said many times. Brawler has less mitigations, less uncontested avoidance and less aggro control no matter in any content. Are you just blinded that you can't see it? Stop lying to everyone that brawler is fine. No matter in kos or eof, plate tanks have always more mitigations. Don't try to fool everyone that brawler has more mitigations. Also, all plate tanks have 19% uncontested avoidance from tower/kite shield, 1% from shield adornment, 4% from wrist adornment, 5% from SoD weapon and 5% from hate bp. It's 34%. No matter what stance they are, they can have 34% and brawler has 0% in offensive stance. Not to say aggro control, most plate tanks have 2 encounter taunts, passive taunt and different form of aoe taunts. Brawler has only 1 encounter taunt every 20 sec. Since Brawler has less mitigations, less uncontested avoidance and less aggro control no matter in any content than plate tank. How could brawler is fine? It's fine to be a noob but stop lying that brawler is fine. It is simple against game mechanics. </blockquote> Solo = Brawler better than any other fighter in survivability and dps.LOL, check this thread dude, <a href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?topic_id=365050" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/...topic_id=365050</a> When you tried to claim brawler is on top of solo, you are just so wrong. We are good in solo but definitely not number 1 or at least on par with sk. Group = Brawler better than any other fighter in dps, and has descent single target agro control... enough to get the job done at a quicker pace than any other fighter.LOL, another big joke again. That's because you didn't group with good zerker and sk. They have better aggro on both single and group encounters. Also, they did on par or even better dps than brawler in group. Raid (pre-EoF) Brawler lent good dps to the group, and could compete with some dps classes LOL, compete with dps classes? are you trying to say your dps classes are full of noobs? Give me a break. There is no difference in kos or eof for dps to deal damages. Of course, you will deal a bit more with eof loots. But it's still by far that dps classes can't deal over 2k dps without eof loots. If you can't deal over 2k as dps class, just bcz you suck. No excuse. Raid (EoF) Brawlers can't do as much dps as other fighters, and cannot tank or lend any noticable buff/debuff that can't be bettered by another class.Still, why brawler can deal on par dps as other fighter on kos but not EoF? You are really making day of joke! Let me tell you, no matter kos or eof, brawler can't deal on par dps as other tanks since no matter in eof or kos, brawler tree in way worse than war tree or crusader tree. It is game mechanics. It won't be changed in any content. I didn't argue about mitigation... brawlers wear leather, and hence will always have less mitigation than other fighters. I didn't argue avoidance.. in solo and group content the brawler's avoidance is still better than the other classes. In raid situations is where this gets choppy. And finally, all the stats you have postsed are from a fabled out tank, with all possible adornments and block/defensive boosts. My retort is: a fully fabled out monk with the best gear in the game still cannot tank high-end raid mobs (which is a problem), but put him in a normal group, and put the guardian in a normal group, and the monk will blow away through the dungeon and content, and through solo content at an astounding rate, better than any plate tank. Wrong, any plate tank with master craft or hand craft tower/shield has 19% uncontested avoidance. It's already better than brawler master 1 defensive stance (16%). Moreover, a lot of group encounters are yellow or orange to us. In this case, uncontested avoidance is more important. Also, in your example, put a fabled out guardian in group encounter, what can he do? Let me tell you. With all fabled out guardian, this group can kill all epic x2 named easily or AoE kill every group encounters including castle of MM or nizara (hardest group encounter in this game). It's by far better to the a fabled out brawler can do in group encounter.In solo, I have already stated, brawler isn't best or at least sk is on par with us. Though, sk still has all the advantages as plate tank. Better mitigation, better uncontested avoidance and better aggro control. How do you explain this ? </blockquote>

Timaarit

07-17-2007, 04:05 PM

<cite>Freliant wrote:</cite><blockquote> Solo = Brawler better than any other fighter in survivability and dps.Group = Brawler better than any other fighter in dps, and has descent single target agro control... enough to get the job done at a quicker pace than any other fighter.Raid (pre-EoF) Brawler lent good dps to the group, and could compete with some dps classesRaid (EoF) Brawlers can't do as much dps as other fighters, and cannot tank or lend any noticable buff/debuff that can't be bettered by another class.I didn't argue about mitigation... brawlers wear leather, and hence will always have less mitigation than other fighters. I didn't argue avoidance.. in solo and group content the brawler's avoidance is still better than the other classes. In raid situations is where this gets choppy. And finally, all the stats you have postsed are from a fabled out tank, with all possible adornments and block/defensive boosts. My retort is: a fully fabled out monk with the best gear in the game still cannot tank high-end raid mobs (which is a problem), but put him in a normal group, and put the guardian in a normal group, and the monk will blow away through the dungeon and content, and through solo content at an astounding rate, better than any plate tank. Please explain how in non-raid situations the monk is not working as intended and I will reconcider my posts.</blockquote>Solo, incorrect, SK has more survivability and usually even more DPS. Also a zerker will have higher DPS and survivability if targets are chosen correctly (means multiple target fights). Also guardians have almost equal survivability while soloing as monks and against nameds even higher. Group, incorrect, zerkers will have higher DPS if the encounter has more than one target as will DPS specced crusaders have (especially against undeads paladins will have higher DPS). Which is usually the case. Raid (pre-eof), good DPS in not good enough for a class that brings nothing else into a raid EoF, woot!! finally a correct one. But it is painfully obvious that you are not participating into an issue that you know much about. Do you even know anyone who plays a brawler? From your posts my guess would be that you dont.

Nitanyspirit

07-17-2007, 04:12 PM

The problem is brawlers cannot be balanced on a raid by simply adding damage and not in heroic instances unless you remove their utilitarian skins like stun, mez and FD. Now I would be pleased to see something where if the target is epic it does more damage on stun combat arts (since the stun is ignored).

Nathdorl

07-17-2007, 04:13 PM

from what ive read here, i think i just found the perfect video decribing your (brawlers) feeling: <a href="http://youtube.com/watch?v=Jt8Q7Fsa_Vs" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">http://youtube.com/watch?v=Jt8Q7Fsa_Vs</a>

Bramwe

07-17-2007, 04:15 PM

Edit - NM it wasn't constructive

Novusod

07-17-2007, 04:22 PM

<cite>Freliant wrote:</cite><blockquote>Solo = Brawler better than any other fighter in survivability and dps.Group = Brawler better than any other fighter in dps, and has descent single target agro control... enough to get the job done at a quicker pace than any other fighter.Raid (pre-EoF) Brawler lent good dps to the group, and could compete with some dps classesRaid (EoF) Brawlers can't do as much dps as other fighters, and cannot tank or lend any noticable buff/debuff that can't be bettered by another class.Please explain how in non-raid situations the monk is not working as intended and I will reconcider my posts.</blockquote>Way to derail the thread Freliant. We are not talking about solo and group content but raids only. Please take your own advise and re-read this thread. Nobody ever said solo content is broken or group content needs help. This is strickly about raiding and how a class that is so awesome in levels 1-69 becomes nearly worthless at level 70 and the longer you play the brawler the more irrelivent it becomes. Nobody has to explain anything about non-raid content in this thread other then the context of making suggestions that are non applicaple to solo sittations. I specifically made suggestions around raid specific utilities that would have minimal impact on groups and zero change to solo. So please stop with this diatribe of misinformation.

yusukekuwabara

07-17-2007, 04:25 PM

Regardless of how many people or brawlers post here, there is a huge problem with Brawlers and raiding. I'm fine with the way my monk solos and groups, but for raiding there is no real reason to have one there when you have other choices, PERIOD! Will all the guardians, warlocks, healers, and other people that have no idea what they are talking about please leave us alone and let us get our class fixed for raids. I could care less what they do to our soloing, which by the way SKs have the ability to solo better. Give us higher dps, give us better tanking abilities, give us utility, give us group buffs, give us anything that will make us at least wanted more on raids. Don't get me wrong all brawlers need to be fixed, BUT bruisers have 1 thing we do not, and 2 things better then we do: 1) they have drag which can be a raid saving AA, 2) higher dps, and 3) they have a mitigation buff which helps them tank better then us monks. So as I see it Monks need just a little more love, but I'm here to help brawlers, just had to throw that out there.The thing is, fixing us isn't really all that hard to do. There are so many different things that can be done to fix the brawler. Fix our strength line, give us some double attack while allowing us to still use weapons. Make our self stat buff useable on others in group. Add a hate transfer to our avoidance check that rivals the scouts. Let Outward Calm affect the group and include a Manaward. Let Tsunami affect the group, but only affect others for half the time. Any other ideas out there?P.S- If you don't regularly raid EOF with a brawler as a main then please don't post what you don't know about. And if you think you know a brawler on your server that regularly parses 2k+ you probably don't, I'm sure there are some out there with full avatar gear that can but that isn't the majority.

Freliant

07-17-2007, 04:25 PM

In short... you guys are trying to say that the brawler class is completely broken... BSWhat you guys are arguing (the ones that replied to my other 2 posts) is that the brawler class is not better than any other fighter class. In my book, that does NOT mean broken. Being better, or even being on par with another class in the same archtype for solo, group and some raid content is not what defines being broken. Broken means that a game mechanic that was supposed to work, is not working. Simply put, for all but raid content, you are stating that you should be as good or better than the other fighter classes, and if you are not, then you are broken, and that, of course, is a very mis-informed concept.I was willing to throw in a scrap and let it pass that you guys want to be more usefull in raids and hence the overly drawn out post, but now I see that what you really want is equality or superiority, which is not exactly "fixing" the class. Being more usefull in raid = good. Comparing yourself to other classes and saying "I am not as good as them" = bad.By your logic, there should be many classes of each archtype that should complain about how they are not doing as good or better than other classes in their own archtype. I revert back to my original post now. You guys are just whining, and paying any more attention to this thread is just a waste of not only mine, but any other poster's time.

Freliant

07-17-2007, 04:29 PM

<cite>Novusod wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Freliant wrote:</cite><blockquote>Solo = Brawler better than any other fighter in survivability and dps. Group = Brawler better than any other fighter in dps, and has descent single target agro control... enough to get the job done at a quicker pace than any other fighter.Raid (pre-EoF) Brawler lent good dps to the group, and could compete with some dps classesRaid (EoF) Brawlers can't do as much dps as other fighters, and cannot tank or lend any noticable buff/debuff that can't be bettered by another class.Please explain how in non-raid situations the monk is not working as intended and I will reconcider my posts.</blockquote>Way to derail the thread Freliant. We are not talking about solo and group content but raids only. Please take your own advise and re-read this thread. Nobody ever said solo content is broken or group content needs help. This is strickly about raiding and how a class that is so awesome in levels 1-69 becomes nearly worthless at level 70 and the longer you play the brawler the more irrelivent it becomes. Nobody has to explain anything about non-raid content in this thread other then the context of making suggestions that are non applicaple to solo sittations. I specifically made suggestions around raid specific utilities that would have minimal impact on groups and zero change to solo. So please stop with this diatribe of misinformation. </blockquote> Blame Couching, I was replying to his thread that stated that Brawlers are broken in any situation. I have read your posts and respect your ideas. I agree that brawlers need more utility in raids, but some of the posters on this thread just do not deserve the courtesy of a response since they just want to scrap and spit on any reasonable post made. Appologies if it was deemed derailing the thread, but in many, if not most of my posts, I have stated that brawler classes are working as intended for all content, but that they need a boost in raid content in order to be competitive.

yusukekuwabara

07-17-2007, 04:31 PM

<cite>Freliant wrote:</cite><blockquote>In short... you guys are trying to say that the brawler class is completely broken... BSWhat you guys are arguing (the ones that replied to my other 2 posts) is that the brawler class is not better than any other fighter class. In my book, that does NOT mean broken. Being better, or even being on par with another class in the same archtype for solo, group and some raid content is not what defines being broken. Broken means that a game mechanic that was supposed to work, is not working. Simply put, for all but raid content, you are stating that you should be as good or better than the other fighter classes, and if you are not, then you are broken, and that, of course, is a very mis-informed concept.I was willing to throw in a scrap and let it pass that you guys want to be more usefull in raids and hence the overly drawn out post, but now I see that what you really want is equality or superiority, which is not exactly "fixing" the class. Being more usefull in raid = good. Comparing yourself to other classes and saying "I am not as good as them" = bad.By your logic, there should be many classes of each archtype that should complain about how they are not doing as good or better than other classes in their own archtype. I revert back to my original post now. You guys are just whining, and paying any more attention to this thread is just a waste of not only mine, but any other poster's time.</blockquote>Dude what are you talking about? Maybe there are a few brawlers in this thread that want to be superior, but there are us out here that want to be "useful". Don't mistake the idiots of our class for all of us. I don't want to be better then any other fighter class, I want to be useful on raids, end of story. If you don't have anything constuctive to say, don't say it. If a whiner is bad, then what is a person that responds to a whiner? The problem is that most of the brawlers who actually did care, or used to care at least, changed mains to a Dirge or some other useful class their guild needed and aren't posting in here. P.S. I have noticed a few brawlers posting things that don't make sense, please ignore these idiots who are making it harder to get our class fixed. So let's go brawlers who actually know what they are talking about let's see some ideas.

Couching

07-17-2007, 04:36 PM

<cite>Freliant wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Novusod wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Freliant wrote:</cite><blockquote>Solo = Brawler better than any other fighter in survivability and dps. Group = Brawler better than any other fighter in dps, and has descent single target agro control... enough to get the job done at a quicker pace than any other fighter.Raid (pre-EoF) Brawler lent good dps to the group, and could compete with some dps classesRaid (EoF) Brawlers can't do as much dps as other fighters, and cannot tank or lend any noticable buff/debuff that can't be bettered by another class.Please explain how in non-raid situations the monk is not working as intended and I will reconcider my posts.</blockquote>Way to derail the thread Freliant. We are not talking about solo and group content but raids only. Please take your own advise and re-read this thread. Nobody ever said solo content is broken or group content needs help. This is strickly about raiding and how a class that is so awesome in levels 1-69 becomes nearly worthless at level 70 and the longer you play the brawler the more irrelivent it becomes. Nobody has to explain anything about non-raid content in this thread other then the context of making suggestions that are non applicaple to solo sittations. I specifically made suggestions around raid specific utilities that would have minimal impact on groups and zero change to solo. So please stop with this diatribe of misinformation. </blockquote> Blame Couching, I was replying to his thread that stated that Brawlers are broken in any situation. I have read your posts and respect your ideas. I agree that brawlers need more utility in raids, but some of the posters on this thread just do not deserve the courtesy of a response since they just want to scrap and spit on any reasonable post made. Appologies if it was deemed derailing the thread, but in many, if not most of my posts, I have stated that brawler classes are working as intended for all content, but that they need a boost in raid content in order to be competitive.</blockquote>/shrug Didn't brawler has less mitigation, less uncontested avoidance and less aggro control than any plate tank in any content? Also, did you see me complain that brawlers are broken in any situation? See, you are lying again. Go ahead if you can find me post anything about brawler is broken in group or solo content in this thread. We have less mitigation, less agggro contrl and less avoidance in solo or group didn't mean we are broken ! Why? Since we can stun mobs, even we have less mitigations, we can still live with it. But it is totally different in raid. No matter it is kos or eof.

yusukekuwabara

07-17-2007, 04:42 PM

Enough of the arguing guys. One poster who comes in here to mess with us won't stop us from getting fixed. Let's get back on topic.

Bladewind

07-17-2007, 04:44 PM

<cite>Freliant wrote:</cite><blockquote>Kaoru@Blackburrow wrote: <blockquote>... Until that time comes people are going to come to the forums and voice their opinions/frustrations/feedback on their current class as it is really the only means we have to vent. ... </blockquote> Couching - 16Timaarit - 12Banzai - 9Novusod - 13Pagansaint - 9Bladewind - 15Wildfury - 7Kaoru - 7Total = 88 posts from 8 people = Almost 6 pages (2 shy).40 different posters on this thread. Choombata defending his right to be a good guardian tank had 16 posts, and me trying to keep the thread sane am up to 8 posts., This leave 30 posters with less than 5 posts each. The thread has become overinflated, and its not from alot of brawlers coming to post how mad they are about their role, but mainly from the same few people replying over and over to some mis-informed posters that didn't bother to read the whole thread.Hence, like I said before. Just keep (or edit the OP) a post that states what is the goal, and then the rest can post their /support or their /retort.I don't even want to take a peak that the 30 odd pages of discussion about brawlers in the other forum, but I am sure the same situation has happened there with only a few people doing 50% of the posts, and the rest just trodding along trying to find out what is the main point brawlers are trying to make.. which I neatly put in just one post.</blockquote>If someone makes a post that I disagree with, I will post that I disagree and provide reasons why... If someone specifically addresses me with a question or a dispute about what I posted, I will post a reply to either defend my claim/information or to acknowledge a mistake. A lot of the posts made by myself and others were refuting posts of spurious infomration or disussing the issue at hand. Call me crazy, but I thought these forums were for discussing issues and considering opposing points of view. That's exactly what has gone on in this thread.Choombata was not defending a guardian's "right to be a good tank" since no one ever claimed that guardians should not tank. He questioned numbers, discussed core tanking mechanics with several people, and hashed out the underpinnings of brawler vs plater tanking. In the end, he agreed with many of our key points. From my understanding of his posts, he is still skeptical about our need for a dps boost, and, in my opinion, he is not seeing how much higher a plate tank's uncontested avoidance can be or just how important uncontested avoidance is in the raiding sphere. Even without perfect agreement, we did agree that brawlers have been let down and need attention. I dare say it was one of the most constructive forum discussions I have participated in, and I wish that other people (on both sides of the issue) would try to adhere to the same decorum he displayed. All of this name calling and [Removed for Content] wagging is rather childish. Half of the 'over-inflation' of this thread comes from people who are too lazy to read the thread posting drivel and then getting flamed for it. The other half comes from people insisting upon decrying the play ability and/or intelligence of those who disagree with them. That, sadly, is the age-old debater's last resort - invoke emotions to cloud the argument. Less mature people will do that rather than defend their position with factual evidence or concede a point. If you find a thread longer than 3-4 pages that is not rife with that sort of quibbling, I'd venture to say you were no longer on a game discussion forum.You completely missed the boat on your simplification post. I doubt you will ever a see a community come to complete agreement on a subject like this. I have yet to. I've seen just as much dissent on every other fighter forum. <shrug> The players do not have the power to set policy. They have the power to talk about what they interpret the policy to be from existing game mechanics, talk about what they interpret the intended policy to be from developer statements, and talk about what changes they would like to see made to either policy or game mechanics. That's exactly what's going on here. We aren't mindless robots. We're passionate players who think our class currently has a very short and stinky end of the stick. We're entertaining discussion about how to improve the situation. It would be just nifty if every brawler, every warrior, and every crusader were in complete agreement about class vision and mechanics, but that will never be the case. You're trying to over-simplify the issue.

Microphage

07-17-2007, 04:56 PM

I don't post a lot even if I do agree that there are problems. IIRC plate tanks have more uncontested avoidance than brawlers because the Devs decided, right before implementing the changes to the combat system (diminishing returns), that brawlers were too good. Instead of getting a much needed lift, we recieved a nerf that put us even further behind. OK, mistakes happen, but that was a long time ago. Why on earth do plate tanks still have more uncontested avoidance? (sigh and now in many cases more dps) This is crazy. Enough is enough, fix it already!

yusukekuwabara

07-17-2007, 05:00 PM

The thing is I keep seeing all this talk about uncontested avoidance. Why does that matter? Guardians will always MT raids no matter what. No matter what changes take place Guards will be better at tanking then us. Forget the avoidance, we need either utility or dps. Avoidance will get the brawlers nowhere.

Bladewind

07-17-2007, 05:26 PM

<cite>yusukekuwabara wrote:</cite><blockquote>The thing is I keep seeing all this talk about uncontested avoidance. Why does that matter? Guardians will always MT raids no matter what. No matter what changes take place Guards will be better at tanking then us. Forget the avoidance, we need either utility or dps. Avoidance will get the brawlers nowhere.</blockquote> I've been asked to tank on several occasions, even with guardians present. Sometimes skill/gear/experience trumps class selection. The problem is that we are so tank-handicapped at the moment that these opportunities are fewer and fewer. In addition to main tanking, there is off-tanking and picking up adds. Most people are asking for an uncontested fix in addition to a revamp of dps AAs (especially str line and multi attack vs aoe proc in wis line), and at least one additional group buff for more utility. Just because you do not like/want to tank, does not mean that others who rolled a tank class don't. If you want to take your tank class and try a dedicated dps route, great. Don't drag others down who rolled a tank class to tank, though. There is a gulf of difference between viability and superiority. I want to be able to fill an offtank role just like a warrior or crusader. I want to be able to MT if needed. I have no desire to replace the current MT that I raid with, but I'd love to be able to do the job on nights when he is not available. <ul><li>We need the uncontested fix to allow us to fill the primary fighter role (MT/OT). </li><li>We need a dps bost because our AAs are static while other fighters have AAs that modifiy their weapon damage allowing them to continue to progress while we plateau.</li><li>We need a utility boost because we have by far the least group utility of all fighters. All other fighters have 1-2 more gorup buffs and 1-3 more single target utility abilities than brawlers do.</li></ul>This thread and the 'all-encompassing brawler changes' thread have scores of ideas (and pages of discussion about the ideas) for possible changes to address these weaknesses. We are deficient in all three areas, and all three areas are intertwined. We need adjustments in all three to be properly balanced.

Bladewind

07-17-2007, 05:27 PM

<cite>Microphage wrote:</cite><blockquote>I don't post a lot even if I do agree that there are problems. IIRC plate tanks have more uncontested avoidance than brawlers because the Devs decided, right before implementing the changes to the combat system (diminishing returns), that brawlers were too good. Instead of getting a much needed lift, we recieved a nerf that put us even further behind. OK, mistakes happen, but that was a long time ago. Why on earth do plate tanks still have more uncontested avoidance? (sigh and now in many cases more dps) This is crazy. Enough is enough, fix it already!</blockquote> Hear, hear!

Couching

07-17-2007, 05:55 PM

<cite>yusukekuwabara wrote:</cite><blockquote>The thing is I keep seeing all this talk about uncontested avoidance. Why does that matter? Guardians will always MT raids no matter what. No matter what changes take place Guards will be better at tanking then us. Forget the avoidance, we need either utility or dps. Avoidance will get the brawlers nowhere.</blockquote>You don't need avoidance because you didn't off tank a lot in raid. However, for most brawlers who can have a chance to high end raid, our role is off tank. We DO NEED TO TANK in raids. Otherwise, any dps class or bard is better than inviting a brawler to high end raid.

yusukekuwabara

07-17-2007, 06:41 PM

I still don't understand your point Bladewind. I understand you want to tank/offtank, fine. Problem is we have Guardians, Zerkers, Sks, Paladins, and Bruisers to compete with. Maybe your guild lets you MT or off tank, but what is that 1% of guilds in the game that allows their brawlers to tank/offtank raids. I don't really see the point in it. Of course I would love to tank a raid, but with 4 other plate tanks and a better leather tank to choose from and multiples of each for that matter, I don't see it ever happening. Hey if we got just tanking upgrade that would be fine, problem with that is brawlers would need a HUGE and I mean MONUMENTAL upgrade to be able to even come close to any of the other fighters. And to me it seems between the 3 options either increasing dps or utility a little bit to medium amount is more of a possibility then increasing out tanking skills by an enormous amount.P.S. Oh wait I totally forgot and we also have 4 scouts that tank better then us too!

tt66

07-17-2007, 07:28 PM

<cite>yusukekuwabara wrote:</cite><blockquote>Hey if we got just tanking upgrade that would be fine, problem with that is brawlers would need a HUGE and I mean MONUMENTAL upgrade to be able to even come close to any of the other fighters. And to me it seems between the 3 options either increasing dps or utility a little bit to medium amount is more of a possibility then increasing out tanking skills by an enormous amount.</blockquote>Sadly, I have to agree with this. While I think it is preposterous that other tanks have a higher uncontested avoidance than brawlers, I would much rather the Devs focus on increasing our dps and/or utility. I'd rather out-damage a plate-tank than try to out-tank it. The former is far more likely to get me on a raid. And at the moment, it's arguable that I can do neither. As I say, it's not that I don't believe we need to have our uncontested avoidance looked at, I just don't think it should be a priority. .. if only to try to dissuade the inevitable tide of clueless posters wittering on about "whiny brawlers wanting god mode" etc. etc...

Raidi Sovin'faile

07-17-2007, 07:30 PM

I never understood that idea... "Why bother asking for tanking increase because there's already 4 tanks". So? Why can't there be 6 tanks? Why can't people have the choice of 6 viable tank types instead of just 4? They currently have the choice of 6 types of healers. They have the choice of 6 T1 DPS classes. Seriously.. give me one good reason why people shouldn't be able to have a Brawler MT or OT a raid? I mean for crying out loud.. it's not like making Brawlers will suddenly invalidate all other tanks. Gone are the days that Brawlers had higher DPS and thus would have been overpowered to have equal survivability and aggro control. Now that all Fighters are capable of pretty much similar DPS, Brawlers should have similar tanking ability. Yes, Guardians will have their superior survival/aggro buffs. But those are tricks that make a fight a little easier. Min/Maxing will dictate that a Guardian be in the MT position. BUT, who is to take OT positions? Or how about picking up aggro and surviving/holding if the MT should fall? Or how about just any old non-min/max raid force that wants to just bloody raid but has their best skilled/equipped player being a Brawler? If anything, allowing two more tanks into raid tank viability would actually be good for the health of the game.

Bladewind

07-17-2007, 07:48 PM

The poor implementation of uncontested avoidance broke our ability to tank epic content well. So, instead of getting that fixed, we should just give up and ask for something different? That does not make sense to me. Our primary handicap when tanking is not having the highest avodiance like we should. Changing the system such that we have the highest uncontested would fix that, giving us viable base tanking mechanics, just like we had for the first 60 levels of the game.Adjusting our dps AAs such that they modify equipped weapon damage rather than giving static bonuses woudl allow us to progress in dps just liek any other fighter (including giving us a small overall edge on single target encounters just like we had for the first 60 levels fo the game). the extra dps is needed for botht he tanking and dps role, as tanks need to put out certain levels of damage in order to hold aggro.We need moree utility to be a viable choice in a non MT/OT slot in a raid compared to other fighters.The avoidance fix allows us to fulfill the primary fighter role (we're fighters after all). The dps AA fix allows us to put out dps comaprable to or even a bit better than other fighters, which is how we have been balanced historically. Added utility is something necessary to flesh us out compared to other fighters. We need all three to be properly fixed.There are six classes in every archetype. That's no excuse for one of those classes to be made to not be able to fulfill the primary role. Almost every other class has a secondary role that they excel in as well as their primary archetypical role. Brawlers need a secondary role as well, and we can get it through a combination of a dps fix and added utility. We basically already have it - medium melee dps and melee dps group buffing. Unfortunately, our existing abilities are less than stellar when viewed through the lens of other classes who can perform a similar role.All three things need to be fixed. We've always been tanks with melee support abilities. Why all of the sudden should we lose the ability to tank?

Bladewind

07-17-2007, 07:50 PM

Kaisoku@Mistmoore wrote: <blockquote>I never understood that idea... "Why bother asking for tanking increase because there's already 4 tanks". So? Why can't there be 6 tanks? Why can't people have the choice of 6 viable tank types instead of just 4? They currently have the choice of 6 types of healers. They have the choice of 6 T1 DPS classes. Seriously.. give me one good reason why people shouldn't be able to have a Brawler MT or OT a raid? I mean for crying out loud.. it's not like making Brawlers will suddenly invalidate all other tanks. Gone are the days that Brawlers had higher DPS and thus would have been overpowered to have equal survivability and aggro control. Now that all Fighters are capable of pretty much similar DPS, Brawlers should have similar tanking ability. Yes, Guardians will have their superior survival/aggro buffs. But those are tricks that make a fight a little easier. Min/Maxing will dictate that a Guardian be in the MT position. BUT, who is to take OT positions? Or how about picking up aggro and surviving/holding if the MT should fall? Or how about just any old non-min/max raid force that wants to just bloody raid but has their best skilled/equipped player being a Brawler? If anything, allowing two more tanks into raid tank viability would actually be good for the health of the game. </blockquote>Amen.If my regular MT is not online, I don't want to have to give up on the idea of a guild/alliance raid for the evening. I'd rather just MT the raid myself so we can go have fun.

yusukekuwabara

07-17-2007, 08:01 PM

The kind of guild you are talking about seems like a casual guild. In most guilds the Guardian will be on 7 nights a week. If they were to give us better tanking abilities which I would be fine with, do you really think that would help us in the long run? My point is simply this, if we can ever tank anywhere near as Guards do someday than all the Guards will get [Removed for Content] and we will get nerfed back down. So why try to get our tanking abilities a jump? The only way I can see us tanking raids, and I mean real raids, not KOS or old crap is if they implement a complete new system in the game which I don't see happening. There will most likely never be a system in this game that allows 6 tanks to actually "tank" a mob, so all we can hope for is dps/utility. I am looking out for brawlers in the long run, and like I said tanking doesn't help us out in the long run.

Couching

07-17-2007, 08:12 PM

<cite>yusukekuwabara wrote:</cite><blockquote>The kind of guild you are talking about seems like a casual guild. In most guilds the Guardian will be on 7 nights a week. If they were to give us better tanking abilities which I would be fine with, do you really think that would help us in the long run? My point is simply this, if we can ever tank anywhere near as Guards do someday than all the Guards will get [Removed for Content] and we will get nerfed back down. So why try to get our tanking abilities a jump? The only way I can see us tanking raids, and I mean real raids, not KOS or old crap is if they implement a complete new system in the game which I don't see happening. There will most likely never be a system in this game that allows 6 tanks to actually "tank" a mob, so all we can hope for is dps/utility. I am looking out for brawlers in the long run, and like I said tanking doesn't help us out in the long run.</blockquote>Your logic is really weird. Guardian will cry if we get better tanking? So bards are not going to cry if we have similar utilities as bards? Also, Dpsers are not going to cry if we have better dps? Seriously, your logic is flawed. It didn't make sense since in your logic, brawlers deserve to be worst in tanking, utilities and dps. No matter we get a boost in any aspect, some people will crying. If we ddin't get any boost, we will crying. That's it.

tt66

07-17-2007, 08:14 PM

Kaisoku@Mistmoore wrote: <blockquote>They currently have the choice of 6 types of healers. They have the choice of 6 T1 DPS classes. Seriously.. give me one good reason why people shouldn't be able to have a Brawler MT or OT a raid? </blockquote>Well, if I had to pick a reason why people shouldn't be able to have a Brawler MT or OT a raid, it would be based around our lack of hate-gaining abilities. Even if our avoidance was fixed to the point where we put the same strain on healers as a plate tank, we're still lacking in "tank skills", especially the emergency tanking skills that a guardian (for example) has.

Bladewind

07-17-2007, 08:16 PM

Tanking ability doesn't help a tank int he long run? I'm not asking for a tanking boost, I am asking for a tanking fix. In addition, I am asking for other class changes to make us viable in secondary roles, like all other fighters. Your core argument is to not fix what is broken, and I just don't see any logic in that. We've been comparable tanks before (for the majority of time since release). The introduction of the uncontested mechanic hosed us not because of the mechanic itself but because we, the kings of avoidance, were given less avoidance than anyone else. What is the problem with fixing that? "We're already broken, so let it go" and/or "because other classes are tanks, too" are not acceptable answers. We need all of the fixes to be healthy in the long term. I fail to see how restoring our tanking ability is a short term only solution. I was a viable raid tank/offtank for 60 levels. Why is it acceptable for me to now suddenly be severely disadvantaged in that role?

tt66

07-17-2007, 08:17 PM

Couching@Crushbone wrote: <blockquote>Seriously, your logic is flawed. It didn't make sense since in your logic, brawlers deserve to be worst in tanking, utilities and dps. No matter we get a boost in any aspect, some people will crying. If we ddin't get any boost, we will crying. That's it. </blockquote>Hey, that logic is probably why Brawlers are still in the state they're in! The devs can't work out what to do with us that won't leave a group of classes crying, so they stick with just having brawlers doing the weeping <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Raidi Sovin'faile

07-17-2007, 08:19 PM

Who cares if they cry? And honestly, I can't see how they will cry over this.. it's not like making uncontested avoidance work in favour of Brawlers will make them primary tanks.. And newsflash, most of the people playing this game aren't in the top percentile of raiding guilds. This change isn't meant for the top end raiding people to be better. This is a health of the game issue, where two classes are basically falling off the map. Raid viability... not superiority. It's to help the 90% or so people playing that would be affected by having a Brawler to be effective. Please come to terms with this concept so we can continue with everyone on the same page please.

Zabjade

07-17-2007, 09:45 PM

Man, there have been a lot of post today on this thread, go to work for a few hours and, bam, left in the dust! ;p The way I see it, Raiding, grouping and soloing problems are all linked, Soloing: The only reason we are decent at soloing is that we can get to our target faster, but, we have problems taking the target down, while others go slower and have less trouble taking the target down. unless you are one of the rarer and rarer monks with full fabled gear. (Mine is a mix of treasured, mastercrafted and legendary with a fabled belt from DoF)Grouping: We are harder on healers because we have spike damage to deal with and many of the named group mobs seem to have direct lines past our defenses. we also have a slight problem with aggro control especially with adds and out of encounter taunts.Raiding: We have less untility and Uncontested Avoidance and once the AoE's start flying we are down. Any Brawler (Monk/Bruiser) fix should have all three of these areas looked at.In addition some of our broken and/or completely useless combat buffs (Stun! Come On! I get hit MORE when I'm stunned and that renders the buff useless!) should be seriously looked at. I'm willing to fill a consentration slot or 2 with group level buffs.Haste, Monks are drownding in the stuff so much so it is working against us. give us some usable DPS and not the unarmed stuff in the Str line.

ganjookie

07-17-2007, 10:37 PM

<cite>Zabjade wrote:</cite><blockquote>Man, there have been a lot of post today on this thread, go to work for a few hours and, bam, left in the dust! ;p The way I see it, Raiding, grouping and soloing problems are all linked, Soloing: The only reason we are decent at soloing is that we can get to our target faster, but, we have problems taking the target down, while others go slower and have less trouble taking the target down. unless you are one of the rarer and rarer monks with full fabled gear. (Mine is a mix of treasured, mastercrafted and legendary with a fabled belt from DoF)Grouping: We are harder on healers because we have spike damage to deal with and many of the named group mobs seem to have direct lines past our defenses. we also have a slight problem with aggro control especially with adds and out of encounter taunts.Raiding: We have less untility and Uncontested Avoidance and once the AoE's start flying we are down. Any Brawler (Monk/Bruiser) fix should have all three of these areas looked at.In addition some of our broken and/or completely useless combat buffs (Stun! Come On! I get hit MORE when I'm stunned and that renders the buff useless!) should be seriously looked at. I'm willing to fill a consentration slot or 2 with group level buffs.Haste, Monks are drownding in the stuff so much so it is working against us. give us some usable DPS and not the unarmed stuff in the Str line. </blockquote>It is in Solo and group play where we exceed. I do not see how these can be changed. Its is massive hits from raid mobs that destroy us, and we have little to no utility for raids. Improving our utility in raids would be most beneficial IMHO, as we do not want to step on the DPS toes of others.

Shankonia

07-17-2007, 11:53 PM

<cite>Freliant wrote:</cite><blockquote>Kaoru@Blackburrow wrote: <blockquote>... Until that time comes people are going to come to the forums and voice their opinions/frustrations/feedback on their current class as it is really the only means we have to vent. ... </blockquote> Couching - 16Timaarit - 12Banzai - 9Novusod - 13Pagansaint - 9Bladewind - 15Wildfury - 7Kaoru - 7Total = 88 posts from 8 people = Almost 6 pages (2 shy).40 different posters on this thread. Choombata defending his right to be a good guardian tank had 16 posts, and me trying to keep the thread sane am up to 8 posts., This leave 30 posters with less than 5 posts each. The thread has become overinflated, and its not from alot of brawlers coming to post how mad they are about their role, but mainly from the same few people replying over and over to some mis-informed posters that didn't bother to read the whole thread.Hence, like I said before. Just keep (or edit the OP) a post that states what is the goal, and then the rest can post their /support or their /retort.I don't even want to take a peak that the 30 odd pages of discussion about brawlers in the other forum, but I am sure the same situation has happened there with only a few people doing 50% of the posts, and the rest just trodding along trying to find out what is the main point brawlers are trying to make.. which I neatly put in just one post.</blockquote>Go ahead and count every one of my posts ever over there as posts about brawler issues over the past few years.

Taiken

07-18-2007, 12:26 AM

Kithian@Permafrost wrote: <blockquote><cite>tt66 wrote:</cite><blockquote>Banzai@Unrest wrote: <blockquote>Ugh ! Exaggerating about our problems is really not a great way to get fixed. <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Don't worry. Our class is very screwed up and there really is no need to lose credibility by posting mis-information or "exaggerating" about our problems. </blockquote> Option A) : Dev wanders into a thread, sees somebody posted "12%" where it should have been "15%". Option B) : Dev wanders into a thread, sees four pages of people yelling at each other about "misinformation", "corrections" and "falsehoods". Which option do you think it going to make the Devs least likely to pay attention to the thread? Seriously. Let's just move on. And try to fix this class. </blockquote>Option C) : Dev starts to log on to forums, sees something shiny and wanders somewhere else. </blockquote>Or: Option D): Dev starts to log into forums, sees that the brawlers need help.. Thinks to himself: "Looks like the brawlers need help... OH I KNOW WHAT I'LL DO! I'M SO BRILLIANT, I'll give the plate tanks more of a boost! That should solve EV-ERY-THING! I read up to page 12.. I tried to get to page 15, but my eyes hurt and I've been reading for an hour and ahalf or so.. Like the rest of you brawlers, I am also a level 70 monk... Who's found himself exiled amongst the others of norrath who seem to have fun in this activity called raiding?.. What is this raiding they speak of.. I want to know.. Will I ever know?.. Alas I wear the mark of the exiled as I am a monk without a purpose in the world of Norrath <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> It's so hard for me to find a group as a monk.. Not just raids.. Raids actaully are a now a thing of the past for me.. I no longer really seek raids as the only responses I recieve are: "monks/brusiers raid? Since when?" It's hard enough finding a group let alone a raid.. To all the non-brawlers posting in this threat, either contribute to our cause or go Happy yourself, and get the happy out of this thread you happying dorks. HERE ARE MY PROBLEMS AS AN EXILED MONK! 1. Even with my avoidance buffs, adornments, food, drink and potition stacks.. I still dont have adaquate avoidance comparead to a mitigation tank?.. What the..... 2. My damage isn't as impressive as it used to be at lower levels.. I might as well forget my wushu training and just run full speed into a mob and hope I can critically injur them [Removed for Content] my pelvic thrust attack! 3. I'm NOT NEEDED? Whatdo I offer a raid?.. Besides the fact I can't tank or dps the mobs.. I also cannot offer a skill that can benifit a raid?.. "Uh.. Sorry taiken, I think we're gonna try and take the 60 bard.. " all jokes aside SOE.. Seriously, im crying for help here.. Every class is better than me.. Every fighter is better than me.. I sign on, and im lucky if I can find a group?.. Why have you forsaken us brawlers?My beloved brawlers, our fate seems to be headed for hard times.. We shall face many obsticles, from both SOE's lack of development, and the discrimination from the other classes.. Soon, we shall fall just as the Fosaken city has fallen under island of mara!.. We shall soon be forgotten.. and only exist as space on an account.. Some may even believe we are moving interactive NPC's in our respective cities... They will despise us instead of embracing us in our time of need... BUT! There will come a time.... A time when a developer.. Will come in and read this, and realize we need help.. He will thnk long and hard, and then, in the middle of the night.. He will have found his answer.. He will run into the EQ2 headquarters, and start implementing the most ubber changes to THE PLATE TANK CLASS! And alas we will perish just as it has been told in the book of "The Destruction of a Brawler - the EOF edition" - Taiken PS: IF anyone needs me, you can find me making jewelry in South Qeynos near the broker.. Sometimes, just sometimes, if you're lucky... You'll find me with a spell called jewelers insight.. That's when I am ubber baby! "WOO GO brawler! Go! Work them stones! Grind that ring! WOO.. Kick that epic bangle's [Removed for Content]! Bwahha, counter that minor ambguity! WOOT! You are an ubber monk.. Yes.. Yes you are Taiken.. " *cries

Zabjade

07-18-2007, 12:30 AM

Kithian@Permafrost wrote: <blockquote><cite>Zabjade wrote:</cite><blockquote>Man, there have been a lot of post today on this thread, go to work for a few hours and, bam, left in the dust! ;p The way I see it, Raiding, grouping and soloing problems are all linked, Soloing: The only reason we are decent at soloing is that we can get to our target faster, but, we have problems taking the target down, while others go slower and have less trouble taking the target down. unless you are one of the rarer and rarer monks with full fabled gear. (Mine is a mix of treasured, mastercrafted and legendary with a fabled belt from DoF)Grouping: We are harder on healers because we have spike damage to deal with and many of the named group mobs seem to have direct lines past our defenses. we also have a slight problem with aggro control especially with adds and out of encounter taunts.Raiding: We have less untility and Uncontested Avoidance and once the AoE's start flying we are down. Any Brawler (Monk/Bruiser) fix should have all three of these areas looked at.In addition some of our broken and/or completely useless combat buffs (Stun! Come On! I get hit MORE when I'm stunned and that renders the buff useless!) should be seriously looked at. I'm willing to fill a consentration slot or 2 with group level buffs.Haste, Monks are drownding in the stuff so much so it is working against us. give us some usable DPS and not the unarmed stuff in the Str line. </blockquote>It is in Solo and group play where we exceed. I do not see how these can be changed. Its is massive hits from raid mobs that destroy us, and we have little to no utility for raids. Improving our utility in raids would be most beneficial IMHO, as we do not want to step on the DPS toes of others. </blockquote>To be precise, it is where our problems are less apparent, not gone all together. I know that I have problems taking Green ^^^ mobs that are nearly grey to me where Other classes start having the problem with Blue ^^^ or can do White ^^^ with tremendous effort. A lot of Heroics seem to cut through my defenseive stance like it is barely there. and this is not counting Mistmore Castle where every mob is named wether it is flat heroic or v and still nearly kills me.It can make it tought to get questline updates when there is no one else on to group with.

acctlc

07-18-2007, 04:03 AM

Speaking from the standpoint of a player in a casual raid guild who has a 70 monk as an alt, yes I'm disappointed in the class. I don't care about top raid gear brawlers bragging that they can hit 2000 dps and feel the class is just peachy keen as it is. I had created a monk hoping to experience dps from a fighter class. I have a mage main, of course I didn't expect that kind of performance from a brawler. But even in my "casual" raid guild..no one wants a brawler on the raid. I can't make even a substandard parse (I consider this at minimum 1000 dps) without a dirge, and before you all start up with the usual *blah blah get better gear blah blah*, I have to say that I need to feel like I'm contributing to the raid enough to want to bring this toon in order to upgrade her gear from a raid! It is absolutely sad that the only way for the majority of brawlers to gear up is from rotting gear on raids where they are playing a more useful class. And it doesn't stop with raiding either. My monk has been excluded from pickup single groups as well! And I can understand why..in a group setting she often times can't get past 500 dps when scout and mage classes are burning mobs down in such a short time. So..there she sits in mediocre gear that I manage to find on the broker. And yes brawlers are substandard tanks as well...but quite honestly I don't want her to be a tank! If I wanted to make a tank class...I'd go guard or zerk. At this point even a scout in the right gear can be a better tank (which they can get because yes they are useful in a raid!) because at least they can do enough damage to a group to hold it's attention! I knew this when I made a monk and thought ok so brawlers aren't the best tank, at some point her dps would improve...and it hasn't. So there she sits..a solo toon who's most useful purpose is shiney farming. Sad really

tt66

07-18-2007, 08:10 AM

Kaisoku@Mistmoore wrote: <blockquote>Who cares if they cry? And honestly, I can't see how they will cry over this.. it's not like making uncontested avoidance work in favour of Brawlers will make them primary tanks.. And newsflash, most of the people playing this game aren't in the top percentile of raiding guilds. This change isn't meant for the top end raiding people to be better. This is a health of the game issue, where two classes are basically falling off the map. Raid viability... not superiority. It's to help the 90% or so people playing that would be affected by having a Brawler to be effective. Please come to terms with this concept so we can continue with everyone on the same page please. </blockquote>Be fair now, pretty much everyone here is agreeing Brawlers need more raid viability. I guess the discussion is really about what sort of viability we should be looking for... <ul><li>There is one school of thought that says that, as we're fighters we should by default have the ability to be able to tank epic mobs effectively if properly spec'd.</li></ul><ul><li>Another school of thought says that, as avoidance types, we should leave the tanking to the plates and concentrate on bringing DPS and other utility to the table.</li></ul><ul><li>A third philosophy states that Brawlers are so disadvantaged in raids that we need an increase in all three areas of raiding.</li></ul> And then each school has it's own separate offshoots. <ul><li>Some believe we should be viable raid MTs, others that we should be content with an OT role</li><li>Should we merely top the fighter DPS charts or should we be close to the lower scout DPS?</li><li>How much utility? Indeed, what kind of utility?</li><li>What would he have to prove to the devs in order to get an increase in ability across the board, and how would this be done without threatening the niche of other classes? </li></ul>Everyone who is knowledgeable about brawlers seem to agree that something needs to be done. But what to do, and how to do it are far from decided <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Taiken

07-18-2007, 11:18 AM

SOMEONE PLZ HELP, PLZ!!! ANY DEV!? PLZZ!!! WE NEED HELP!!!!! We are suffering and you won't help us.. HOW CRUEL CAN YOU BE!?!? *continues crafting jewelry...* "This is much more fun than raiding... I mean, how much fun can it be?.. Really.. Who needs fabled items, or masters, who needs platnium.. I have gold, plenty of gold. And legendary! Yes legendary! And treasued is not so bad either.. Mastercrafted is just as good too! Who needs raids.. When you can spend time crafting such beutiful jewelry! This is what being a monk is all about!"

liveja

07-18-2007, 11:24 AM

Arieva@Oasis wrote: <blockquote>At this point even a scout in the right gear can be a better tank </blockquote>I tank a lot for small guild groups -- duos to quads -- with my Swashy, even tho I'm neither spec'd nor geared for tanking.One day, I mentioned in group chat that since I'm doing so much small-group tanking, I was thinking of re-speccing to the STA line (that's the Rogue tanking line) so that I could do it better. My guildie said, "Why? You already do it fine enough as it is, why re-spec to something you don't like if you don't need to?"& she's right, so I didn't do the re-spec. & I think, frankly, there's something wrong with the whole idea. I'm geared & spec'd for DPS, yet I'm willing to bet I can tank almost as well as a Brawler in similar gear, if not better. That shouldn't be happening. Sure, there's a lot of content I wouldn't want to try to tank, but I'm betting there's a lot more that I can. Certainly, there's more than enough to keep my casual friends-&-family guildies entertained for quite a while.My apologies to any & all Rogues reading this thread, but this is something that's been bothering me for a long time now. It's one thing for a Zerker or even a Guardian to out-tank & out-DPS a Brawler; it's entirely something else when Rogues are rivaling Brawler tanking, if not exceeding it.SOE, please fix this situation.

Spydr

07-18-2007, 06:15 PM

I also feel brawlers aren't on par with the other classes. IMO, we are a dps class. (So fix that area)A suggestion? Let us use poisons. Not saying thats an end all fix, just a suggestion. IMO we should at least be keeping pace with rogues

mellowknees72

07-18-2007, 08:37 PM

<cite>Eurystheus wrote:</cite><blockquote>I also feel brawlers aren't on par with the other classes. IMO, we are a dps class. (So fix that area)A suggestion? Let us use poisons. Not saying thats an end all fix, just a suggestion. IMO we should at least be keeping pace with rogues</blockquote> omg, no. Please don't open the door to "brawlers are DPS and not tanks" any more than it's already been opened, okay? Thanks.We're supposed to be TANKS. If I wanted to be a DPS class, my ranger would be levelled up by now and not sitting at level 35 primarily tradeskilling.If anything needs fixing, it's making monks and bruisers more attractive as tanks for raids. We're GREAT tanks for groups, and we're EXCELLENT at soloing. We don't need to use poisons, for the love of Karana.

Zabjade

07-19-2007, 03:20 AM

<cite>Taiken wrote:</cite><blockquote>SOMEONE PLZ HELP, PLZ!!! ANY DEV!? PLZZ!!! WE NEED HELP!!!!! We are suffering and you won't help us.. HOW CRUEL CAN YOU BE!?!? *continues crafting jewelry...* "This is much more fun than raiding... I mean, how much fun can it be?.. Really.. Who needs fabled items, or masters, who needs platnium.. I have gold, plenty of gold. And legendary! Yes legendary! And treasued is not so bad either.. Mastercrafted is just as good too! Who needs raids.. When you can spend time crafting such beutiful jewelry! This is what being a monk is all about!" </blockquote> LoL I chose Jeweler for my Monk as well and she is a 55 Jeweler. Too far into the tradeskill to feel like it is worth respecing plus I'm not that far from being able to craft Wyrmslayer part 3, which may be a necessity if there are a LOT of Dragons in Kunark and I believe there are. She is also a Tinkerer, only Tier 2 so far. My alt Monk is a Carpenter so maybe someday I can make money off raiders who want to spiff up their place. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Madmoon

07-19-2007, 11:05 AM

<cite>Zabjade wrote:</cite><blockquote>The way I see it, Raiding, grouping and soloing problems are all linked, Soloing: The only reason we are ........ Grouping: We are harder on healers because we have spike damage to deal with and many of the named group mobs seem to have direct lines past our defenses. we also have a slight .....</blockquote> Are you insane?!? I have often made the argument that we shouldn't expect too much attention because of end-game raiding simply BECAUSE we are so well set in solo and group play. Do you honestly feel that you can find five other brawlers who think we have problems solo or in groups? I mean, outside of the same floor where they have you locked up?I went from 1 to 45, 50 only on crafted (not mastercrafted - crafted) gear and my own App4s, save for quest rewards, Adept 1 treasure loots and the very, very rare Master drop. The only Legendary item I had was my carpet. And I had NO issues in groups or solo.That there needs to be some work at the EoF raiding (and likely RoK raiding,) there is little question. But to start that we need help all around is to have the whole discussion be dismissed as the ravings of a bunch of lunatics.

Couching

07-19-2007, 11:28 AM

That's why str line should be fixed. It's unfair to brawler and other classes. Str line shouldn't even exist. Why? No body should be able to get free weapon, especially a free legendary to semi-fabled weapon while leveling up. That's why you said brawler is really good while leveling up than other classes. It's unfair to other classes unless they can get free weapons from their aa as well. Also, it's unfair for hardcore brawlers since a whole line is wasted for casual players only. Let's fixed str line and casual players won't complain that brawlers are too good to solo while leveling up Also, hardcore brawlers will be happy as well.

malykii

07-19-2007, 12:14 PM

i love it....got no response to the brawler aa changes post so what do we do? we open another post and whine some more. i have been doing some work with my monk malykii on crushbone with raiding kos zones as the main tank of the raid. With a warden, conji, templar, defiler, dirge and myself i am not only sitting at 61% mitigation 75% avoidance but have no trouble with maintaining agro on entire groups of mobs with casters and mele doing up to 2500 dps. /shrug

Freliant

07-19-2007, 12:30 PM

Sins@Crushbone wrote: <blockquote>i love it....got no response to the brawler aa changes post so what do we do? we open another post and whine some more. i have been doing some work with my monk malykii on crushbone with raiding kos zones as the main tank of the raid. With a warden, conji, templar, defiler, dirge and myself i am not only sitting at 61% mitigation 75% avoidance but have no trouble with maintaining agro on entire groups of mobs with casters and mele doing up to 2500 dps. /shrug </blockquote> I am sure alot of monks will bash you for saying this <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />So far they have bashed anyone else with anything that does go dirrectly with their cause. Anyways... I am sure the first thing they will say is: "We don't mean KoS Raid content, we are talking about EoF raid content specifically." Heh... o well, can't please everyone. On my own defense, I would like to say: "Give the brawlers what they are asking for." (Heh, if I don't say that I will be tarred and feathered.)

Raidi Sovin'faile

07-19-2007, 12:33 PM

/sigh Is that DPS based on your flawed math from your previous posts? <img src="/smilies/2786c5c8e1a8be796fb2f726cca5a0fe.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> And is that mitigation when you are rooted and stunned? Looking at your gear, you have no better than those that I see on my server right now and they aren't running around at 60%+ mitigation pre-stunned buffs. Sorry.. but going by your previous posts, I'm going to have to take what you say with a grain of salt.

PantherXX

07-19-2007, 12:41 PM

Sins@Crushbone wrote: <blockquote>i love it....got no response to the brawler aa changes post so what do we do? we open another post and whine some more. i have been doing some work with my monk malykii on crushbone with raiding kos zones as the main tank of the raid. With a warden, conji, templar, defiler, dirge and myself i am not only sitting at 61% mitigation 75% avoidance but have no trouble with maintaining agro on entire groups of mobs with casters and mele doing up to 2500 dps. /shrug </blockquote> Grats tanking content more than a year old and designed for 50AAs at best. You really have a great perspective on the issues. Of course, if you were replaced with a guardian or zerker, they would have more mitigation, roughly the same avoidance (with much more uncontested avoidance), would tank any KoS zone in offensive stance the entire time, do about the same DPS as you (much more against multiple targets), and provide more group benefits as well. I am willing to bet that a good rogue could tank as well as you in those zones too. For the 1 millionth time, we can do things. The problem is that for every roll, there is someone who can do it better, so there is no logical reason to chose a monk (brawler). We are not asking for uberness, we are asking for some degree of parity and balance.So I guess instead of "whinning" we should just sit back and wait on the grace of SOE to get things changed. In the past 6 months there have been exactly two developer comments that refered to brawler issues. BOTH of those comments were not even directly posted ... they were relayed through a 3rd party. As it turned out, one was not even accurate (Grimwell telling us that someone had some good changes in store for GU36). We have every reason to keep complaining and bringing the issues to light, until someone is willing to address these concerns. Until I see a developer actually address these problems, I will continue to push for changes.

malykii

07-19-2007, 12:48 PM

yeah its exactly what they did in the brawler aa changes post. the thing is they have no real ground to stand on. the only downfall to brawlers is if they have a healer in group that doesnt really mit buff all that well you are sol. it is true that avoidance doesnt work as well against epic mobs so mitigation does mean more. as a raid leader though i would never stick a brawler into a group with no mitigation buffs and expect them to tank. as far as hate goes i think we are fine i have no more trouble tanking with my monk as i did my guardian on raids. its all about group makeup and hate transfer. we all use the same taunts. plate just get reactive and as a former raiding guardian i know that that isnt enough to keep group hate on you without others feeding agro also.

PantherXX

07-19-2007, 12:48 PM

<cite>Freliant wrote:</cite><blockquote>Sins@Crushbone wrote: <blockquote>i love it....got no response to the brawler aa changes post so what do we do? we open another post and whine some more. i have been doing some work with my monk malykii on crushbone with raiding kos zones as the main tank of the raid. With a warden, conji, templar, defiler, dirge and myself i am not only sitting at 61% mitigation 75% avoidance but have no trouble with maintaining agro on entire groups of mobs with casters and mele doing up to 2500 dps. /shrug </blockquote> I am sure alot of monks will bash you for saying this <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />So far they have bashed anyone else with anything that does go dirrectly with their cause. Anyways... I am sure the first thing they will say is: "We don't mean KoS Raid content, we are talking about EoF raid content specifically." Heh... o well, can't please everyone. On my own defense, I would like to say: "Give the brawlers what they are asking for." (Heh, if I don't say that I will be tarred and feathered.)</blockquote>No ... I will only bash people who make fallacious arguements. If I was a guardian and complained that I couldn't tank well with a two hander, you would tell me I was an idiot for not using a shield. The only people saying monks are fine for tanking raids are tanking in KoS. These counter arguements fail to address the issues at hand. In every single case, warriors are better at soaking up damage as a raid MT, and at the same time will do better DPS than a brawler in the MT role. Again, the question is not "can we?" if we are very skilled, but rather, "are we reasonably balance against other classes?" including other "tank" classes as well as those like rogues who have moderate tanking, DPS, and debuffs.

tt66

07-19-2007, 01:05 PM

Sins@Crushbone wrote: <blockquote>i love it....got no response to the brawler aa changes post so what do we do? we open another post and whine some more. i have been doing some work with my monk malykii on crushbone with raiding kos zones as the main tank of the raid. With a warden, conji, templar, defiler, dirge and myself i am not only sitting at 61% mitigation 75% avoidance but have no trouble with maintaining agro on entire groups of mobs with casters and mele doing up to 2500 dps. /shrug </blockquote>Not 3400 dps? <img src="/smilies/908627bbe5e9f6a080977db8c365caff.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

malykii

07-19-2007, 01:19 PM

Last time i checked we are leather and 60% mit wearing leather is pretty dam good in my opinion. Also you dont know anything about raid setup odviously templar, warden, and dirge all buff slash crush piercing. With malykii i can hold a pretty steady 1600 dps with a dirge in the group in full defensive stance. Anyway I am done with this post also. I just think it is funny you all keep beating your heads against the wall when we are balanced. Just get over it and if your raid leader puts you in a bad group ask to be set with someone with mit buffs. Use your mitigation stances, its part of your character. Btw Couching I couldn't disagree more. Hand to hand combat and unarmed combat has been something that has been part of the monk class since release of the game and eq1 even. If you want to lose 400 hp and 50 str and agi just for the sake of not having to buy weopons or wait for raiding that is your own perogative.

XaroXethanotos

07-19-2007, 01:24 PM

"Be fair now, pretty much everyone here is agreeing Brawlers need more raid viability. I guess the discussion is really about what sort of viability we should be looking for... <ul><li>There is one school of thought that says that, as we're fighters we should by default have the ability to be able to tank epic mobs effectively if properly spec'd.</li></ul><ul><li>Another school of thought says that, as avoidance types, we should leave the tanking to the plates and concentrate on bringing DPS and other utility to the table.</li></ul><ul><li>A third philosophy states that Brawlers are so disadvantaged in raids that we need an increase in all three areas of raiding."</li></ul>It's been discussed that they could probably revise our AA structure so that we can either drastrically impove our dps or tanking ability, but not both. An improvement in either area would be nice, but why must we choose? I have a 70 monk (mostly fabled) and a 70 Berserker (mostly legendary, some fabled). My Berserker can outank and out-dps my monk (much more in multi-mob encounters) in lesser gear. The main Guardian in my guild can out-dps me while she is tanking (Sta/Buckler line)! This doesn't even consider the fact that most tanks do it in offensive stance. We HAVE to go defensive and sacrafice alot of our offensive abilities to tank at all.So I ask, why must brawlers be forced to choose? If my Monk could tank and dps as well as my Berserker I'd be happy.

Freliant

07-19-2007, 01:27 PM

<cite>XaroXethanotos wrote:</cite><blockquote>"Be fair now, pretty much everyone here is agreeing Brawlers need more raid viability. I guess the discussion is really about what sort of viability we should be looking for... <ul><li>There is one school of thought that says that, as we're fighters we should by default have the ability to be able to tank epic mobs effectively if properly spec'd.</li></ul><ul><li>Another school of thought says that, as avoidance types, we should leave the tanking to the plates and concentrate on bringing DPS and other utility to the table.</li></ul><ul><li>A third philosophy states that Brawlers are so disadvantaged in raids that we need an increase in all three areas of raiding."</li></ul>It's been discussed that they could probably revise our AA structure so that we can either drastrically impove our dps or tanking ability, but not both. An improvement in either area would be nice, but why must we choose? I have a 70 monk (mostly fabled) and a 70 Berserker (mostly legendary, some fabled). My Berserker can outank and out-dps my monk (much more in multi-mob encounters) in lesser gear. The main Guardian in my guild can out-dps me while she is tanking (Sta/Buckler line)! This doesn't even consider the fact that most tanks do it in offensive stance. We HAVE to go defensive and sacrafice alot of our offensive abilities to tank at all.So I ask, why must brawlers be forced to choose? If my Monk could tank and dps as well as my Berserker I'd be happy.</blockquote>Good post, straight to the point. All opinions represented and a personal quote at the end. This is what I was saying should be posted, not all the "not to the point" posts we have been having here lately.

Couching

07-19-2007, 01:30 PM

Sins@Crushbone wrote: <blockquote>Btw Couching I couldn't disagree more. Hand to hand combat and unarmed combat has been something that has been part of the monk class since release of the game and eq1 even. If you want to lose 400 hp and 50 str and agi just for the sake of not having to buy weopons or wait for raiding that is your own perogative. </blockquote>Unarmed combat is never a part of this game until KoS. The str line was introduced after KoS. Before, KoS, brawler didn't fight with barehand since it's significantly worse than even trease weapons. Just what I said, no body should get a FREE legendary or fabled. If you want it, get legendary from heroic named or fabled from raids. It's called progression.

Etchii

07-19-2007, 01:39 PM

Couching@Crushbone wrote: <blockquote>That's why str line should be fixed. It's unfair to brawler and other classes. Str line shouldn't even exist. Why? No body should be able to get free weapon, especially a free legendary to semi-fabled weapon while leveling up. That's why you said brawler is really good while leveling up than other classes. It's unfair to other classes unless they can get free weapons from their aa as well. Also, it's unfair for hardcore brawlers since a whole line is wasted for casual players only. Let's fixed str line and casual players won't complain that brawlers are too good to solo while leveling up Also, hardcore brawlers will be happy as well. </blockquote>This is the stupidest thing I've ever seen Free?? FREE?? hardly.. First it takes up AA points that can be placed else where, second the lack of weapons = less stats, less procs, no adornments. Thirdly, even having the OPTION to play the character this way (an option that has been in place since everquest 1..although implimented diffrently) removes an ENTIRE aa line from brawlers who want to use weapons. Think before you post. in addition...This is a great and unique style of fighting that only the brawler can master. It also provides a cool role-play opportunity, and sparks up conversations with non brawlers who inspect and see two empty weapon slots.I equate this to removing bows from rangers---its something you just don't do if you want a ranger class.

Couching

07-19-2007, 01:43 PM

Sins@Crushbone wrote: <blockquote>Last time i checked we are leather and 60% mit wearing leather is pretty dam good in my opinion. Also you dont know anything about raid setup odviously templar, warden, and dirge all buff slash crush piercing. With malykii i can hold a pretty steady 1600 dps with a dirge in the group in full defensive stance. Anyway I am done with this post also. I just think it is funny you all keep beating your heads against the wall when we are balanced. </blockquote>You miss the major point. You were in defensive stance, with conj mitigation buff, with dirge mitigation buff and most mitigations gears you can get. In other words, you lost a lot of hp from mitigation gears. Also, any plate tank have more mitigation in your group and they are in OFFENSIVE stance. Not to say, they have MORE Uncontested avoidance than you do. A mitigation tank has more mitigation, more uncontested avoidance, deal more dps in MT (since we are in defensive stance and they are in offensive stance) and better aggro control (of course since they did better dps, not to say they have more encounter taunt and passive taunts). How is it called balanced? PS: Your logic is flawed since it's meaningless to claim any class is fine in tanking in KOS since we have nec tanking Taranix. So nec is another good tank now? Hell, who can't tank as long as you have good healers in KoS? The definition of tank should be focusing on mitigation, uncontested avoidance and aggro control. Currently, brawlers are at bottom of mitigation, uncontested avoidance and aggro control. Don't tell me that brawlers deserve to be it. It didn't make sense.

Couching

07-19-2007, 01:49 PM

<cite>Etchii wrote:</cite><blockquote>Couching@Crushbone wrote: <blockquote>That's why str line should be fixed. It's unfair to brawler and other classes. Str line shouldn't even exist. Why? No body should be able to get free weapon, especially a free legendary to semi-fabled weapon while leveling up. That's why you said brawler is really good while leveling up than other classes. It's unfair to other classes unless they can get free weapons from their aa as well. Also, it's unfair for hardcore brawlers since a whole line is wasted for casual players only. Let's fixed str line and casual players won't complain that brawlers are too good to solo while leveling up Also, hardcore brawlers will be happy as well. </blockquote>This is the stupidest thing I've ever seen Free?? FREE?? hardly.. First it takes up AA points that can be placed else where, second the lack of weapons = less stats, less procs, no adornments. Thirdly, even having the OPTION to play the character this way (an option that has been in place since everquest 1..although implimented diffrently) removes an ENTIRE aa line from brawlers who want to use weapons. Think before you post. in addition...This is a great and unique style of fighting that only the brawler can master. It also provides a cool role-play opportunity, and sparks up conversations with non brawlers who inspect and see two empty weapon slots.I equate this to removing bows from rangers---its something you just don't do if you want a ranger class. </blockquote> Let me say it again. Before KoS, unarmed fight is pointless since our bare hand is worse than treasure weapons. It's also stupid to think that brawler should get a free legendary or semi-fabled weapon as a matter of course. No way. If you want legendary or fabled weapons, get it from heroic named and raids. It's called progression. PS: Even without str line, you can still fight with your bare hand since you think it is cool.

EQ2Luv

07-19-2007, 02:02 PM

Sins@Crushbone wrote: <blockquote>Last time i checked we are leather and 60% mit wearing leather is pretty dam good in my opinion. Also you dont know anything about raid setup odviously templar, warden, and dirge all buff slash crush piercing. With malykii i can hold a pretty steady 1600 dps with a dirge in the group in full defensive stance. Anyway I am done with this post also. I just think it is funny you all keep beating your heads against the wall when we are balanced. Just get over it and if your raid leader puts you in a bad group ask to be set with someone with mit buffs. Use your mitigation stances, its part of your character. Btw Couching I couldn't disagree more. Hand to hand combat and unarmed combat has been something that has been part of the monk class since release of the game and eq1 even. If you want to lose 400 hp and 50 str and agi just for the sake of not having to buy weopons or wait for raiding that is your own perogative. </blockquote> Your logic is "We can MT in KoS, therefore we are balanced." I do not agree with your opinion. Many other brawlers do not either. If you want to call us whiners and then leave the thread so be it. But if you want to be more informed maybe you should read (and comprehend) other people's posts instead of just spouting your view over and over without giving any consideration to other's views. I won't restate what others have already said, but even your own post highlights some of the problems with brawlers as tanks. I dont know who said templar warden and dirge dont buff s/c/p, but if anything that highlights the problem -- you need those to hold aggro. A guardian or zerker would not. Also, I dont think you would have all those buffs in an offtank group. But again the point is that other tanks would not need them because they can tank nearly as well in offensive, and have more taunts to help out when theyre defensive. 60% mit *is* nice for a leather wearer (which it sounds like you have 30 out of every ~60 seconds). So why would they put a leather wearer in the MT role? A guard in the same group will have 65%+ mit, hold aggro better, and have higher uncontested avoidance. To me, you sound like someone who is very proud of his ability to MT in KoS. Try being the MT in Emerald Halls or an offtank even and see how well you do. Come back and tell us about it please. Don't you think the fact that no one has the experience of doing this already says something about brawlers as tanks? Indeed, most of us have already dropped our expectations to having the ability to offtank. You might want to read these posts sometime to see why we are at a disadvantage in this role unless we have a warden and a dirge, and even then we aren't as good as other tanks, the gap is just smaller.

malykii

07-19-2007, 02:17 PM

i have played both guardian and monk as raid tanks and if your group makeup is good it makes no difference. that is from my own raiding experiance. you can't compair zerker or shadowknight to any other tank class when it comes to multi mob encounters. they have so much ae dps that they could hold agro on an entire encounter without taunting. no 61% mitigation is what i hold without mountain stance. oh and yes templar warden dirge ALL have crushing slashing piecing buffs do your homework you sound stupid. anyway this forum is a null subject so i am out. not worth posting on something that isnt broken and the gm's odviously dont think need fixed. good luck to you guys though. maybe you should all go play plate tanks cause brawlers to you are odviously flawed. i on the other hand will continue to be the most skilled brawler in this game. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

sensie

07-19-2007, 02:18 PM

Sins@Crushbone wrote: <blockquote>Last time i checked we are leather and 60% mit wearing leather is pretty dam good in my opinion. Also you dont know anything about raid setup odviously templar, warden, and dirge all buff slash crush piercing. With malykii i can hold a pretty steady 1600 dps with a dirge in the group in full defensive stance. Anyway I am done with this post also. I just think it is funny you all keep beating your heads against the wall when we are balanced. Just get over it and if your raid leader puts you in a bad group ask to be set with someone with mit buffs. Use your mitigation stances, its part of your character. Btw Couching I couldn't disagree more. Hand to hand combat and unarmed combat has been something that has been part of the monk class since release of the game and eq1 even. If you want to lose 400 hp and 50 str and agi just for the sake of not having to buy weopons or wait for raiding that is your own perogative. </blockquote> 60 percent Mit, ok lets examine this closely, with no buffs from ouside sources I sit at 48 percent mit in defensive stance. CAsting Spirit Mountia I go up to 52 percent Mit. Now with Spirit like Mountain and Mountain Stance I reach 63 percent Mitagation. Whats the problem here??? Well Spirit like Mountain roots you in place and Mountain stance stuns you. As far a group of three on any pull, your mystic/defiler is going to get more aggro then your ONE group taunt, therefor any attempts to use at least one mit buffer would result in a good chance that you would be one healer down. So here what it looks like from our perspective. Monks are told 2 things we first started. You are avoidance tanks, but were top dps for fighters. SO WHAT DID THIS MEAN? We gave up mitagation, and lack of taunt/aggro control for avoidance and dps. Now we move along to present day, and palte fighters have just as much avoidance as brawlers, and even more uncontested avoidance. Bezerkers and guardians have more dps now. So that means the guard and Bezerker, have more mit same avoidnace(more uncontested) more dps, better/more aggro control, and more group buffs then brawlers. HMMMMMMMMMM I see balance <img src="/smilies/2e207fad049d4d292f60607f80f05768.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />As far as you getting 1600 dps in KoS, in defensive stance, I think you are full of crap. I have asked for parses before when you made this claim and there was no response, but I will go so far as o say okay you got 1600 what was the rest of the raid parsing??Lastly why are people afraid/scared of other classes improving????????????Sensie Hwarang GUK

EQ2Luv

07-19-2007, 02:27 PM

Sins@Crushbone wrote: <blockquote>i have played both guardian and monk as raid tanks and if your group makeup is good it makes no difference. that is from my own raiding experiance. you can't compair zerker or shadowknight to any other tank class when it comes to multi mob encounters. they have so much ae dps that they could hold agro on an entire encounter without taunting. no 61% mitigation is what i hold without mountain stance. oh and yes templar warden dirge ALL have crushing slashing piecing buffs do your homework you sound stupid. anyway this forum is a null subject so i am out. not worth posting on something that isnt broken and the gm's odviously dont think need fixed. good luck to you guys though. maybe you should all go play plate tanks cause brawlers to you are odviously flawed. i on the other hand will continue to be the most skilled brawler in this game. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></blockquote> Your conclusions are based on "the feel" of raiding as a monk in KoS. Im glad youre so proud, but in my opinion youre ignorant of reality. Look at the numbers and tell us why we aren't inferior to other tanks. There is a limit to what you can tank. We reach that limit sooner than equally geared/grouped guards. I can see now that you are just tooting your own horn and are blissfully ignorant of reality. You can continue to be unaware of the reality that comes with the current game mechanics, and I hope that you do leave this "null subject", so that we can see posts from those with less biased views. God of KoS, I salute you.

sensie

07-19-2007, 02:27 PM

Sins@Crushbone wrote: <blockquote>i have played both guardian and monk as raid tanks and if your group makeup is good it makes no difference. that is from my own raiding experiance. you can't compair zerker or shadowknight to any other tank class when it comes to multi mob encounters. they have so much ae dps that they could hold agro on an entire encounter without taunting. anyway this forum is a null subject so i am out. not worth posting on something that isnt broken and the gm's odviously dont think need fixed. good luck to you guys though. maybe you should all go play plate tanks cause brawlers to you are odviously flawed. i on the other hand will continue to be the most skilled brawler in this game. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></blockquote> OK here it goes, to the most skilled brawler and most knowledgeable monk in the game. Please educate yourself so you know what you are talking about...........................IT HAS BEEN ACKNOWLEDGED THAT THERE ARE ISSUES<a href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?topic_id=369902" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/...topic_id=369902</a>Oh wait the subject is not null and void, but please go back to playing your brawler and I will look at rolling a plate tank.Sensie Hwarang - GUK

malykii

07-19-2007, 02:58 PM

wow ok people chill out. no reason to get your internet fists out yet. personally i think that the mele aspect of the game is already out of control. they went a lil crazy from dof to eof as far as mele dmg output, mitigation, avoidance and now sony is scrambling trying to pull things back together...i would expect another combat change and gear nerf for kunark. they should be nerfing plate. plate tanks with a 70% avoidance rating is just [Removed for Content].

Etchii

07-19-2007, 03:22 PM

Couching@Crushbone wrote: <blockquote><cite>Etchii wrote:</cite><blockquote>Couching@Crushbone wrote: <blockquote>That's why str line should be fixed. It's unfair to brawler and other classes. Str line shouldn't even exist. Why? No body should be able to get free weapon, especially a free legendary to semi-fabled weapon while leveling up. That's why you said brawler is really good while leveling up than other classes. It's unfair to other classes unless they can get free weapons from their aa as well. Also, it's unfair for hardcore brawlers since a whole line is wasted for casual players only. Let's fixed str line and casual players won't complain that brawlers are too good to solo while leveling up Also, hardcore brawlers will be happy as well. </blockquote>This is the stupidest thing I've ever seen Free?? FREE?? hardly.. First it takes up AA points that can be placed else where, second the lack of weapons = less stats, less procs, no adornments. Thirdly, even having the OPTION to play the character this way (an option that has been in place since everquest 1..although implimented diffrently) removes an ENTIRE aa line from brawlers who want to use weapons. Think before you post. in addition...This is a great and unique style of fighting that only the brawler can master. It also provides a cool role-play opportunity, and sparks up conversations with non brawlers who inspect and see two empty weapon slots.I equate this to removing bows from rangers---its something you just don't do if you want a ranger class. </blockquote> Let me say it again. Before KoS, unarmed fight is pointless since our bare hand is worse than treasure weapons. It's also stupid to think that brawler should get a free legendary or semi-fabled weapon as a matter of course. No way. If you want legendary or fabled weapons, get it from heroic named and raids. It's called progression. PS: Even without str line, you can still fight with your bare hand since you think it is cool. </blockquote> Let me say again, before KoS and it was changed to AAs the stances used to have "if fighting unarmed proc xxx damage" which was a significantly higher damage ammount than when using weapons (to make up for the crappy stats of the fists) This proc even had a chance to proc on every hit . I think this was pre LU 13. so you see, unarmed had a place even before AA points, it even had a place in norrath before everquest 2 was released.Edit: Stop saying its free. It is not. (see above for the COST of using bare fisted fighting)And as far as "progression" goes... fists are NOT the best weapon in the game (aka...you can still progress), and to prove a point that progression is a terrible argument, check the broker... you can get fabled weapons for 10 plat or less Tier7. And to go even further--weapons don't make or break a class. A brawler who uses bare fisted will still need to get excelent armor and jewlry in order to progress. so in conclusion, just because you don't like bare fisted doesn't mean it should be removed from the brawlers who like to play that way. To lower the fists to treasured quality effectivly limits those brawlers to solo content only (as treasured gear is meant for solo players). Keep it an OPTION for all brawlers, you have the choice to not take that option.

Couching

07-19-2007, 03:43 PM

<cite>Etchii wrote:</cite><blockquote> Let me say again, before KoS and it was changed to AAs the stances used to have "if fighting unarmed proc xxx damage" which was a significantly higher damage ammount than when using weapons (to make up for the crappy stats of the fists) This proc even had a chance to proc on every hit . I think this was pre LU 13. so you see, unarmed had a place even before AA points, it even had a place in norrath before everquest 2 was released.Edit: Stop saying its free. It is not. (see above for the COST of using bare fisted fighting)And as far as "progression" goes... fists are NOT the best weapon in the game (aka...you can still progress), and to prove a point that progression is a terrible argument, check the broker... you can get fabled weapons for 10 plat or less Tier7. And to go even further--weapons don't make or break a class. A brawler who uses bare fisted will still need to get excelent armor and jewlry in order to progress. so in conclusion, just because you don't like bare fisted doesn't mean it should be removed from the brawlers who like to play that way. To lower the fists to treasured quality effectivly limits those brawlers to solo content only (as treasured gear is meant for solo players). Keep it an OPTION for all brawlers, you have the choice to not take that option.</blockquote>No body stop you using your bare fist. Though, it's crazy to waste a full line for bare first only since we can't get benefit with progression. If you want to use it, you can ask SoE to change it back to get bonus on stances rather than aa. Also, it is free comparing to get a real weapon. You put aa to enhence it and other classes put aa to enhence damages they can get from weapons, for example, double attack. What's the difference? The reason that fist is free because it's always there. You don't need to buy it or get it from named in game. All what you do is using aa on it to enhence it. It's same deal as every other class does to enhence their damages from weapons. Though, they have to buy or get weapons from named. Lets say it again, you can still use your bare first even without str line. You always have your fists with you.

Etchii

07-19-2007, 03:50 PM

what about the lack of stats a weapon provides? 50+ points to 2 or 3 stats? the lack of resist stats? The lack of proc damage? The inability to adorn the fists? Do you know what opportunity cost is? Its similar.

Couching

07-19-2007, 04:00 PM

<cite>Etchii wrote:</cite><blockquote>what about the lack of stats a weapon provides? 50+ points to 2 or 3 stats? the lack of resist stats? The lack of proc damage? The inability to adorn the fists? Do you know what opportunity cost is? Its similar. </blockquote>That's because our fist are free. It should be worse than weapons you get from game. What's wrong with it? You can't complain that we didn't have any stats on our fists. Also, it's not the excuse that our fists aren't free since it has no stats. Also, if you want to talk about opportunity cost, how about it's even harder to get real weapon since you may never get some weapons from raids just because bad luck? Though, you will never worry to not get your fists with you.