Brawler loven plz

[Etchii]

<p>I'm not complaining at all about how they currently are.  They are NOT the best weapon in the game (rightfully so), they are currently (with aa points spent properly) decent weapons which carry no stats or bonus's to make up for the fact that they are of higher legendary/low fabled quality damage rating weapons that scale with level.  </p><p> I'm posting because people seem to think that they are some how free weapons without any sort of cost or penalty attached..which is untrue. </p><p> I will defend them as a choice for brawlers, I care not how they are implimented...just that they are there.  When people start talking about removing them from the game or reducing their quality to a level that makes them un-usable i WILL say something. (which is why i chimed in).</p>

[malykii]

drama with a capital "D" i think i could just dump everquest and just read the forums all night. would be almost as fun as the 60-69 channel during the summer when all the kids are out of school.

[EQ2Luv]

Sins@Crushbone wrote: <blockquote>drama with a capital "D" i think i could just dump everquest and just read the forums all night. would be almost as fun as the 60-69 channel during the summer when all the kids are out of school.</blockquote> Says the one who calls others stupid and declares himself the best brawler in the game.... Aren't you contradicting yourself saying that guards and brawlers are on equal footing and then saying that plate tanks should have their avoidance nerfed?  Is this so different from someone suggesting that brawlers should have their defensive ability increased?  Didn't you say in another thread that we don't tank as well as guards and aren't supposed to (and again isn't this contradictory to what you're saying here)?  You seem to think that you can say anything you want and expect no one to speak against it. 

[Zabjade]

<cite>Madmoon wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Zabjade wrote:</cite><blockquote><p><span style="color: #00cc00">The way I see it, Raiding, grouping and soloing problems are all linked, </span></p><p><span style="color: #00cc00">Soloing: The <b>only</b> reason we are ....</span></p><p><span style="color: #00cc00">.... Grouping: We are harder on healers because we have spike damage to deal with and many of the named group mobs seem to have direct lines past our defenses. we also have a slight .....</span></p></blockquote><p> Are you insane?!?  I have often made the argument that we shouldn't expect too much attention because of end-game raiding simply BECAUSE we are so well set in solo and group play.  Do you honestly feel that you can find five other brawlers who think we have problems solo or in groups?  I mean, outside of the same floor where they have you locked up?</p><p><span style="color: #00cc00">Personal attacks? Please, how dull. I can run through a zone fine but if I have to take down a named heroic and there is no group around I can have a tough time.</span></p><p><span style="color: #00cc00">Admittedly it has been <u>slightly</u> easier since I upgraded some of my stuff, but comparatively. So far I only have 55 AA's so I might not be uber-enough to see it yet, but I still get slipped-through even in defensive, in places like Acadechism's wandering trash-mobs</span></p><p>I went from 1 to 45, 50 only on crafted (not mastercrafted - crafted) gear and my own App4s, save for quest rewards, Adept 1 treasure loots and the very, very rare Master drop.  The only Legendary item I had was my carpet.  And I had NO issues in groups or solo.</p><p><span style="color: #00cc00">Back then I didn't either, still prefered to Solo but back then my biggest worry was stealing aggor from the MT so I would swap to 2hb. I loved Heirophant's Crook.</span></p><p>That there needs to be some work at the EoF raiding (and likely RoK raiding,) there is little question.  But to start that we need help all around is to have the whole discussion be dismissed as the ravings of a bunch of lunatics.</p></blockquote><p> <span style="color: #00cc00">...And according to you, I'm a Lunatic by saying that things I have encountered <b>in my experiance</b> are connected to our raiding problems to some extent? </span></p><p><span style="color: #00cc00">I'm not saying that our soloing is broken just that the hits can be felt even for a casual. </span></p><p><span style="color: #00cc00">Besides if they do fix the double attack, it will also help with soloing and grouping, if they do fix our Uncontested Avoidance it will help casuals as well, in one way or another.</span></p>

[Kaoru]

Actually the whole unarmed usage being tied in with the stances was a bruiser only thing and had nothing to do with monks, and therefore was not brawler specific. (Feel free to correct the above statement if it is incorrect since t5 was a very long time ago) Personally I feel that the whole str thing should be taken out, role-play is such a small % of the populous (3 servers out of 20) that it really shouldn't warrant its own aa line. I personally can't remember the last time I have seen another lvl 70 brawler with their weapon slots open, but it was months before EOF at the very least. The reason why people feel it is like getting free weapons is because after maxing this aa line by like lvl 20 you never have to obtain another weapon until after you hit lvl 70 (since it automatically scales to your level), and even then they are better then any legendary weapons that drop making those items basically useless except to transmute.  With the diminishing returns on stats and the crap dps you get from procs (about 3% of total dps) you really don't get much of a penalty either. Any penalties at all would be more then made up for in any group setting. Although this line does rock for lowbie brawlers which is why you will see nearly all of them picking this line. Unfortunatly for SOE it is prolly way too late in the game for them to take this out. What needs to be done is the line needs to be adjusted so that anyone can use the line instead of leaving it the way it is. Most likely the dev in question has a low level brawler as an alt which is why it stayed that way.

[Kaoru]

<cite>EQ2Luv wrote:</cite><blockquote>Sins@Crushbone wrote: <blockquote>drama with a capital "D" i think i could just dump everquest and just read the forums all night. would be almost as fun as the 60-69 channel during the summer when all the kids are out of school.</blockquote> Says the one who calls others stupid and declares himself the best brawler in the game.... Aren't you contradicting yourself saying that guards and brawlers are on equal footing and then saying that plate tanks should have their avoidance nerfed?  Is this so different from someone suggesting that brawlers should have their defensive ability increased?  Didn't you say in another thread that we don't tank as well as guards and aren't supposed to (and again isn't this contradictory to what you're saying here)?  You seem to think that you can say anything you want and expect no one to speak against it.  </blockquote>Remember this is also the same person who said (in another thread) he was hitting 2200+ zonewide/3400 encounter dps and tanked unrest with only a conj pet healing him. Unfortunately looking at the gear on his monk/bruiser the delay on his weapons and overall stats he is still posting exaggerations, something he admitted to in the other thread.

[Raidi Sovin'faile]

Kaoru@Blackburrow wrote: <blockquote>Actually the whole unarmed usage being tied in with the stances was a bruiser only thing and had nothing to do with monks, and therefore was not brawler specific. (Feel free to correct the above statement if it is incorrect since t5 was a very long time ago) </blockquote> It came along with KoS, for about all of a week or two before they changed it and took it away again to give us the Strength line's bonus. So even for Bruisers there was only a brief window where it was there. For the rest of the time before in DoF and original, unarmed was still just a 1hander damage and pretty much any weapon with stats higher than storebought was better. So no... while flavourful, there wasn't a massive precedence for this.

[Couching]

Exactly, my monk was created in Nov 2004 and I have never used bare hands. Also, I really didn't remember when we get a proc in our stance. Now, I found the answer that it's bruiser only. Ok, the idea of mine is simple. <b>Brawler should get full benefits of 5 lines of our aa no matter you are casual or hardcore players as other classes. </b>In current design, we didn't so that we need a fix on str line that everyone can benefit from it.

[Timaarit]

Sins@Crushbone wrote: <blockquote><p>Last time i checked we are leather and 60% mit wearing leather is pretty dam good in my opinion.   </p></blockquote>It would be if it was real. You however are referring to mitigation with the temporary buffs that stun you when you use them. Which makes your statement BS. You will not get 60% base mitigation while wearing leather.

[Novusod]

Newest brawler changes on Test: <p>Bruiser </p><ul><li>Enhance: Heavy Scarring: Also improves reuse speed by 6 seconds per rank.</li><li>Enhance: Close Mind: No longer requires both Stone Deaf and Heavy Scarring achievements. Improved reuse speed from 5 to 7 seconds per rank.</li><li>Enhance: Intervene, Intercept, Intercede: Also grants a temporary damage absorption bonus to your target by 3% per rank.</li><li>Enhance: Impose: Also reduces resistability by 1% per rank.</li><li>Enhance: Brag: Also reduces resistability by 1% per rank.</li><li>Soak Hit: Whenever you are the target of an Intervene ability, you receive a temporary damage absorption bonus of 9%.</li><li>Drag: Reduced duration from 5 to 4 seconds.</li><li>Alternate: Shiftiness: Increased detaunt effectiveness.</li><li>Evade: Renamed Control Hate: If Shiftiness is active, it reduces a hate position. Otherwise, it increases a hate position with an enemy.</li><li>Retribution of Stone: Increased trigger percentage from 20% to 25%. Damage by all ripostes are increased by 35%.</li></ul><p>Monk</p><ul><li>Enhance: Beckon: Also reduces resistibility by 1% per rank.</li><li>Enhance: Stare: Also reduces resistibility by 1% per rank.</li><li>Alternate: Mongoose Stance: Increased detaunt effectiveness.</li><li>Enhance: Dragonbreath: Reduced reuse speed bonus from 5 to 4 seconds per rank (but reuse speed of original ability was improved).</li><li>Evade - Renamed Evade Check: Non-fighters in your group have their hate reduced with the encounter. If Dragon Stance is not active, your hate is also reduced with your encounter.</li><li>Enhance: Will of the Void I: Reduced cost to 2 points instead of 3.</li><li>Enhance: Stone Stance: Increased spell mitigation bonus from 4% to 6% per rank. Also improves reuse speed by 6 seconds per rank.</li><li>Enhance: Outward Calm: Also increases duration by 3 seconds per rank.</li><li>Enhance: Tsunami: Increased reuse speed bonus from 7 to 8 seconds per rank.</li><li>Master's Evasion - Renamed Superior Riposte: Ripostes the next attack or reflects the next spell. Increased duration by 5 seconds.</li><li>Enhance Jabs: Instead of 20% casting speed bonus per rank, it improves both casting and recovery speed by 15% per rank</li></ul><span style="color: #cc0000">I like the direction the enhance Interceed and soak hit are being taken; however, I think it needs to be stepped up a bit. So temporary damage absorption bonus to your target by 3% per rank (15% max) and 9% end line soak mean a total of 24% </span>in temporary damage absorption. Now in a raid context of this being used to interceed the main tank if the mob does a 1000 point attack the bruiser interceeds it he will take 760 damage before mit is calculated. If the brawler has 40% mit then total damage cost will be 456. If the main tank took the hit he would mitigate 60% of the hit and only take around 400 damage. As a general use utility it is not worth it unless the tank will die without being interceeded. I think a good doubling of the temporary damage absorption is in order here.

[Couching]

The new changes for bruiser is pretty nice. It helps bruiser to control their hate. The new control hate is really neat. For monk change, the Evade check is a good idea. Though, they need to boost it significantly. With current evade, you can cast it every 20 sec with 793-970 hate reduce. For dpsers in raids who did 2k-3k dps in each fight, the average hate reduce per minute of new Evade check is only 1.5% to 2% to each dpsers. It's by far to be useful. To make it useful in raid, it needs to be changed to 7%~9% imo. It's also matching the deaggro buff nerf of all scout/mages. In other word, if you invite a monk to your dps group in raid, the monk will cover the lost of hate reduce of each class.

[Bladewind]

Couching@Crushbone wrote: <blockquote>The new changes for bruiser is pretty nice. It helps bruiser to control their hate. The new control hate is really neat. For monk change, the Evade check is a good idea. Though, they need to boost it significantly. With current evade, you can cast it every 20 sec with 793-970 hate reduce. For dpsers in raids who did 2k-3k dps in each fight, the average hate reduce per minute of new Evade check is only 1.5% to 2% to each dpsers. It's by far to be useful. To make it useful in raid, it needs to be changed to 7%~9% imo. It's also matching the deaggro buff nerf of all scout/mages. In other word, if you invite a monk to your dps group in raid, the monk will cover the lost of hate reduce of each class. </blockquote><p> Yeah, I'd like to see it be a bit more effective as well.  This can be done by boosting the dethreat amount or shortening the recast.  </p><p>Alternatively, it could be made into a groupwide proc on hostile action.  I'd absolutely love that.  Call it "Sifu's Tranquil Presence" or something along those lines and have give it a 15-20% chance to proc negative 500ish hate on any hostile action or heal spell (spell, art, auto attack).   I really like how they tied it to dragon stance so it is now useful for both tanking and dpsing.  Major thumbs up for this one - very creative idea <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

[Gasheron]

<p>I'm looking forward to these changes quite a bit. The Monk lines were pretty weak overall before, but with this update and the changes made to other classes' hate control, it looks like we are getting a role, one that's needed in a raid setting. It IS a little weak just looking at the raw numbers, but it's at least a very good move imo. Plus, I like Dragon's Breath, so upgrading it just makes me happier.</p><p>The change to Master's Evasion is also interesting. One hit may not be that reliable, but it could have some interesting uses if timed correctly in a group setting. Reflects the next spell... Gonna have to test that out.</p><p>'Course this is just from a Monk's perspective, as I won't even try to say what I think about the Bruiser changes, since I don't play one.</p>

[Zabjade]

<p><span style="color: #00cc00">Hmm I admit that the Monk Specfic looks good so far, It looks like it will help us in raid utility by venting the Healer/Mage aggro that they tend to build up, if I'm reading it correctly.</span></p><p><span style="color: #00cc00">(<i>Just got off work so half of this stuff is flying over my head)</i></span></p><p><span style="color: #00cc00">Anyone care to give it a breakdown and analysis?</span></p>

[Couching]

<cite>Zabjade wrote:</cite><blockquote><p><span style="color: #00cc00">Hmm I admit that the Monk Specfic looks good so far, It looks like it will help us in raid utility by venting the Healer/Mage aggro that they tend to build up, if I'm reading it correctly.</span></p><p><span style="color: #00cc00">(<i>Just got off work so half of this stuff is flying over my head)</i></span></p><p><span style="color: #00cc00">Anyone care to give it a breakdown and analysis?</span></p></blockquote>Troub group deaggro buff is changed to 34% in LU37. Our Evade check is about 1.5%-2% to group dpsers who did 2k-3k dps. This idea is good but with 1.5%-2%, it's hardly useful in realty. It needs a boost to 7%~9% at least to make it useful in raid. Even if it was boosted to 7%~9%, it's by far worse than troub group deaggro buff and it is by far to be overpowered.

[Zabjade]

Couching@Crushbone wrote: <blockquote><cite>Zabjade wrote:</cite><blockquote><p><span style="color: #00cc00">Hmm I admit that the Monk Specfic looks good so far, It looks like it will help us in raid utility by venting the Healer/Mage aggro that they tend to build up, if I'm reading it correctly.</span></p><p><span style="color: #00cc00">(<i>Just got off work so half of this stuff is flying over my head)</i></span></p><p><span style="color: #00cc00">Anyone care to give it a breakdown and analysis?</span></p></blockquote>Troub group deaggro buff is changed to 34% in LU37. Our Evade check is about 1.5%-2% to group dpsers who did 2k-3k dps. This idea is good but with 1.5%-2%, it's hardly useful in realty. It needs a boost to 7%~9% at least to make it useful in raid. Even if it was boosted to 7%~9%, it's by far worse than troub group deaggro buff and it is by far to be overpowered. </blockquote><p><span style="color: #00cc00">Well that is what testing feedback is for, I hope, since, hopefully, there will be a place for Monks on raids, you will just have to try it out and send massive feedback on the amount of hate vented. </span></p><p><i><span style="color: #00cc00">(Bah my Newbie Bruiser is still too low and still too much a Bruiser to test this, need to go further in the betrayal quest on my Iksar)</span></i></p><p><b><span style="color: #00cc00">If the Numbers are set figuratively in stone the other classes might complain, either that they are not transfering enough hate, or we are not venting enough hate, we need to keep an eye on the Aggro control threads here.</span></b></p><p><span style="color: #00cc00">That is one of the 4 biggies that Monks need now we just need to encourage them to give us a decent amount of uncontested avoidance, redo out mit buffs and, remove the bare-handed requirement for the strength line. </span></p>

[MadLordOfMilk]

Keep in mind, brawler uncontested avd is 360 degrees, plate tank is only the frontal arc. Also, "fixing" the STR line wouldn't fix Brawlers... if they changed it into something epic and amazing that "fixed" our class, it'd have to be WAY better than the other lines, and a necessary choice, AND not everyone would have it if they didn't have the points... not an option. Achievements are for customizations, not class balancing. What I think is needed (some of it is for the long-term health of the classes): <ul><li><b>Uncontested Deflection, and balancing middle/defensive stances accordingly in terms of the +% uncontested deflection built into them.</b> </li><li>Fix the "proc situation"</li><ul><li>Many AA lines, Bruiser offensive stance, Monk "Evade Check" all deal with procs - static damage increases. While they're nice, when you get into situations like EoF pushing way beyond the procs being balanced for them, that stuff falls behind a bit. Some way to scale them up or having something else that progresses with your character would be good for long-term health if we have another "horizontal growth" expansion (which there will very probably be) </li></ul><li>Dragon Stance--idk if the bruisers have anything similar--to somehow give AE hate and/or to work well when tanking. Possibly have it work off of dodge/riposte/parry/deflect, or change it to an encounter-wide proc... or both? <img src="/smilies/ed515dbff23a0ee3241dcc0a601c9ed6.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></li><li><b>Mountain Stance & Hardened Skin to not, y'know, stun... hell even a stifle, daze, and root would be an improvement because you can still deflect with that... it IS meant to be timed correctly with hard hits but as-is it kinda negates itself. Or give a different large penalty, but something that <u>doesn't negate itself</u>. </b></li><li>Give us an edge <i>somewhere</i></li><ul><li>Hell, it's a start with abilities like Close Mind, Will of the Heavens, etc - unfortunately, between (relatively) long recasts and the ability of healers to cure just about any effect within a second or two, it's useful but not THAT useful, and realistically only good if the healer isn't or if your healers are refreshing all their cures (won't happen). Great for soloing or going w/a healerless group, though. Something unique like having a notable edge on status effects would be cool in any case. </li></ul><li>Offensive stances: Lower Monks' ever-diminishing haste buffs a bit and add in some double attack or something... hell, could change the Everburning line to +dbl atk instead of +haste, or give Monks some sort of edge on the haste curve... especially because in RoK added +haste really won't make all that much difference with diminishing returns. Fix the aforementioned lack-of-progression with the Bruiser damage proc.</li><li><b>HUGE: Crowd Control abilities - stuns, stifles, dazes, etc. GREAT for solo/group content, but in raids it just means lower dps and crappy power usage. Add in "if target is epic" extra damage to help scale brawler DPS for epic content <u>without</u> overpowering us in solo/group content.</b></li></ul>This may seem like it's asking a lot but for the most part it's small fixes, and half are for longevity and so that brawlers don't get screwed over in situations like the KoS to EoF transition. The bold ones are the huge things, but I think overall they wouldn't overpower brawlers IF they were properly tested. Also, random utility ability idea: something like Rescue, but inverted. Lowers the target's hate by N positions and X hate. The aggro control changes to the Monk AAs got me thinking of ways to make that part of raid utility. Would be a cool idea for a repalcement to the as-is pretty much useless Mongoose Stance <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />. Or, have our Evade Check ability do the same thing, groupwide, of course not affecting us if Dragon Advance is on... now <i>that</i> would be useful in both grouping <i>and</i> raids, both tanking and not. Aside: Also I think overall plate tanks have too much avd relative to their level, but I think that's a side-effect of how crazy classes can get in EoF gear. In any case, brawlers should at least beat them in both contested and uncontested avd. Part of the problem is avoidance drops to garbage because plate tanks have such high avd which needs to be balanced, so if theirs was lowered and somehow this didn't imbalance content to be harder (though technically in some people's eyes it should be), I think it'd benefit everyone. That and a guy in full plate armor shouldn't be dodging over half the attacks coming at him O_o. I'm not looking to lower their survivability at all, just some way to have their avoidance, y'know, make sense other than "it's much, much lower than the actual number listed".

[Kaoru]

Anyone remember the old monk single target buff that lowered a group members hate position by 1? I believe it was the original tranquil blessing. It would be a decent thing to bring back and would fit with the new brawler hate management system soe seems to be giving us. Or perhaps something that lets us take over their position or to keep us directly above them.

[MadLordOfMilk]

It's not a brawler hate management system, it's a monk hate management system <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Keep that in mind... and an optional one too, taken by AAs. Still a cool idea though, and it'd help us tank by, instead of increasing our hate, lowering everyone else's.

[Timaarit]

Sins@Crushbone wrote: <blockquote><p>And stand alone with my tanking gear i am at 8600 hp 71.4% avoidance 3268 mitigation (50% mitigation) without spirit like mountain=) with a conji warden templar defiler its right at about 5000 which is ohh 60% <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />. dammit i hate being the smart one. </p></blockquote>I suppose you really like the current situation then if you hate being smart. Like someone said the healer buffs dont stack. Which means that you have never had 60% mitigation other than with the temporary buffs.

[EQ2Luv]

Kraaj@Everfrost wrote: <blockquote>Keep in mind, brawler uncontested avd is 360 degrees, plate tank is only the frontal arc. </blockquote>Mitigation is 360 too so i don t think it would be imbalancing to give us more 360... and it really doesn't matter if the tank has half a brain anyway.

[Couching]

<cite>Timaarit wrote:</cite><blockquote>Sins@Crushbone wrote: <blockquote><p>And stand alone with my tanking gear i am at 8600 hp 71.4% avoidance 3268 mitigation (50% mitigation) without spirit like mountain=) with a conji warden templar defiler its right at about 5000 which is ohh 60% <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />. dammit i hate being the smart one. </p></blockquote>I suppose you really like the current situation then if you hate being smart. Like someone said the healer buffs dont stack. Which means that you have never had 60% mitigation other than with the temporary buffs. </blockquote>Exactly, the master 1 mitigation buff from healers is around 735. The conj mitigation is around 400. So you get 4400 mitigation. Tell me where the rest 600 mitigations coming from? Unless you hack this game, you have no chance to hit 5000 mitigations without temp mitigation buff up.

[malykii]

Couching@Crushbone wrote: <blockquote><cite>Timaarit wrote:</cite><blockquote>Sins@Crushbone wrote: <blockquote><p>And stand alone with my tanking gear i am at 8600 hp 71.4% avoidance 3268 mitigation (50% mitigation) without spirit like mountain=) with a conji warden templar defiler its right at about 5000 which is ohh 60% <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />. dammit i hate being the smart one. </p></blockquote>I suppose you really like the current situation then if you hate being smart. Like someone said the healer buffs dont stack. Which means that you have never had 60% mitigation other than with the temporary buffs. </blockquote>Exactly, the master 1 mitigation buff from healers is around 735. The conj mitigation is around 400. So you get 4400 mitigation. Tell me where the rest 600 mitigations coming from? Unless you hack this game, you have no chance to hit 5000 mitigations without temp mitigation buff upst </blockquote>i will check again tonight if we raid and let you know what i stand at buffed in mt group=). i am pretty sure that is stand alone without mountain stance.  i know i am never below 58% or i know i am missing buffs.  looks like mitigation changes are to hit test before update 38 sometime. 

[Ramius613]

While the monk changes are nice, I don't really care for the idea that our group aggro control is being tied to an AA.  I've looked at the line, and with the exception of Mongoose Stance, Tranquil Blessing, and maybe Dragonsbreath with it's upcoming changes I wouldn't spend the points into any of the other abilities.  Now granted I play more of a DPS type monk, and this is a good line for tank types.  Another thing I'm worried about with this new ability, along with the aggro changes that are coming to thief types, is that this gives us some raid utility, but guilds are going to request that you be specced this way.  I remember when AAs came out with KoS my roommate telling me about how in EQ1 if  you didn't have  X ability that was  in your Class tree, you were basically passed over for those that did, and by the looks of it, this is where it is headed

[Zabjade]

<span style="color: #00cc00">I know the feeling, I know that I'm going to have to spend some time in my monk tree obtaining enough AA's to obtain the end abilities so that I will be desirable for the Raids for Epic weapons come RoK. I just hope they fix out avoidance/Str Line/redundant-useless-in dire need of upgrade Combat Arts as well</span>

[Shankonia]

<cite>Ramius613 wrote:</cite><blockquote>While the monk changes are nice, I don't really care for the idea that our group aggro control is being tied to an AA.  I've looked at the line, and with the exception of Mongoose Stance, Tranquil Blessing, and maybe Dragonsbreath with it's upcoming changes I wouldn't spend the points into any of the other abilities.  Now granted I play more of a DPS type monk, and this is a good line for tank types.  Another thing I'm worried about with this new ability, along with the aggro changes that are coming to thief types, is that this gives us some raid utility, but guilds are going to request that you be specced this way.  I remember when AAs came out with KoS my roommate telling me about how in EQ1 if  you didn't have  X ability that was  in your Class tree, you were basically passed over for those that did, and by the looks of it, this is where it is headed </blockquote> If the result is that I am requested to join the raid because of it than I will be a happy Monk.  I don't think it'll be enough, however we'll just have to wait and see.

[Shankonia]

<p>Double Post, sorry.</p>

[Raidi Sovin'faile]

Any monks on Test right now able to check all their buffs? Bruiser's DPS group buff got updated with a taunt/dethreat increaser component... it's possible monks had something added to their haste group buff ability. Then again, Bruisers didn't get anything that helps group aggro in their AA's, so maybe Monks got something different (increase to personal taunt values?).

[sensie]

<p>I am not sure if I like the change for evade.  In theory it sounds nice, but we will still be left in the same position,  that is we can manage aggro good but not great.</p><p>First off to get evade we have to give up a bit of our eof dps tree (lol) to get enough points in awareness to activate the end line ability evade.</p><p>Second; I read that it was nice that we will be the only fighter with aggro management.  Unless I missed it guardians and pali's have better aggro management then us.  (Moderate and Amends) Troub's have better group aggro management then us, and chanters can kill someones aggro better then us.  So as I see it the devs gave us another tool but we are on the bottom of the list.</p><p>Dps monks the least preferred</p><p>Tanks monks least preferred</p><p>Utility monks least preferred</p><p>IF the dev's good fix avoidance tanking and our dps then we might be okay.</p><p>DPS fix give the brawler tree double attack for weapons, 4 to5 percent armed, 10 percent unarmed</p><p>Avoidance fix, monks are the only ones who should have uncontested avoidance</p><p>Utility fix aggro tool is not bad a bit more effective would be nice, such as a permenent buff that reduced hate of group 1200 every 20 seconds.</p><p>Copied from a post of mine on the monk forums</p><p>Sensie Hwarang - GUK</p>

[Raidi Sovin'faile]

<cite>sensie wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Avoidance fix, <b>monks</b> are the only ones who should have uncontested avoidance</p></blockquote><p>Eh? I hope that's just a bit of mismatched nomenclature, but shouldn't you mean Brawlers?</p><p>I mean.. is there any reason a Bruiser should have leather armor and no uncontested avoidance? We're in the same exact boat... short of a couple minor ancient spells and the recast speed to damage ratio on combat arts we have the exact same issues as Monks.</p>

[sensie]

<p>Yes I mean brawlers sorry for  being misleading. <img src="/smilies/499fd50bc713bfcdf2ab5a23c00c2d62.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>Sensie Hwarang - GUK</p>

[Silentwolf712]

Kaisoku@Mistmoore wrote: <blockquote>Any monks on Test right now able to check all their buffs? Bruiser's DPS group buff got updated with a taunt/dethreat increaser component... it's possible monks had something added to their haste group buff ability. Then again, Bruisers didn't get anything that helps group aggro in their AA's, so maybe Monks got something different (increase to personal taunt values?). </blockquote> <img src="http://img511.imageshack.us/img511/1511/monkws1.gif" border="0">

[EQ2Luv]

<cite>Silentwolf712 wrote:</cite><blockquote>Kaisoku@Mistmoore wrote: <blockquote>Any monks on Test right now able to check all their buffs? Bruiser's DPS group buff got updated with a taunt/dethreat increaser component... it's possible monks had something added to their haste group buff ability. Then again, Bruisers didn't get anything that helps group aggro in their AA's, so maybe Monks got something different (increase to personal taunt values?). </blockquote> <img src="http://img511.imageshack.us/img511/1511/monkws1.gif" border="0"></blockquote>This is a nice idea. Unfortunately I feel like my monk is being shoved into the buff/utility category and away from the tank category.  I still want to be able to tank.

[Ramius613]

Yes this is nice, and I agree, it does seem like we are being pushed to buff/utility. However, I don't think that this is the only fix the devs have planned for us. This update addresses 2 of the issues that are a problem for us, utility, and aggro management, sort of. The hate vent should be increased, to be a little more effective. The casting thing is kind of nice, if you put us in a group with casters, we could vent some of their aggro, as well as help with their casting speed. If we're lucky enough to have an illus and a coercer in that group, it would help our dps by having the buffs that they give. We also wouldn't be too out of place in the MT group, as we could give the MT our avoidance, some hate, aleviate some of the healers' aggro, although our dps would suffer more since we wouldn't have the buffs as they are more reserved to the MT. In conclusion, the changes give us some raid utility, which we desperately needed. And I hope that the devs are working on our brawler tree to fix the problems there (was disappointed not to see the fixes for this update). I believe that the changes that have been suggested to our brawler tree, along with maybe upping some of the damage AA in the monk tree(sorry I am not familiar with bruiser tree so I won't comment) it would help our DPS considerably. That would leave only fixing our uncontested avoidance so that it is higher than the Plate wearers, where it should be.   Since they seemed to have loosened purse strings on the monk abilities, give us MORE, MORE, MORE of everything.<img src="/smilies/908627bbe5e9f6a080977db8c365caff.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[BChizzle]

<cite>EQ2Luv wrote:</cite><blockquote>Silentwolf712 wrote: This is a nice idea. Unfortunately I feel like my monk is being shoved into the buff/utility category and away from the tank category.  I still want to be able to tank. </blockquote>This makes it at least so we bring something to a raid.  I am happy about it since now we aren't a wasted spot.  I understand there is this small bunch of monks that want to be the MT on a high end raid but I'll just take being invited for a change.

[Raidi Sovin'faile]

All Fighters are getting a bonus like this... not just Brawlers. I'm thinking this change was towards making ALL Fighters more useful on a raid if outside of a MT position. They've made the avoidance buff cross-raid now too... so you won't need the second fighter in the same group to get it anymore. The specific hate bonuses to Monk are in addition to this though (and would be modified by having a Bruiser on the raid, yay stacking benefits!), so Brawlers are getting a little added hate control here. If they reduce the aggro abilities of the scouts (and some mages), and add in some extra for tanks, then people might not HAVE to spec for their deaggro lines quite yet... only if the raid decides to not bring some extra Fighters. All in all it sounds like they are heading towards making more classes useful in raids, more AA's becoming viable depending on raid setup, and overall more options when setting up raids.

[Aan'azyroth]

Kaisoku@Mistmoore wrote: <blockquote>All in all it sounds like they are heading towards making more classes useful in raids, more AA's becoming viable depending on raid setup, and overall more options when setting up raids. </blockquote><p>... and lowering overall raid dps, which will put more pressure on the healers, since they'll need to keep the MT up longer. If the devs don't want this change to make combat slower, the damage output and hitpoints of mobs will have to be adjusted as well... The only other option is to increase brawler dps, and bring it more in line with scout dps...</p><p>Looks like some AA lines will become mandatory, despite SoE claiming the opposite when AAs where introduced...</p><p>Don't get me wrong, it's very nice all classes will get some utility on raids now, but the price we all have to pay will be steep in the first few months after this GU goes live: people will now have to start powerleveling toons that were "useless" on raids before these changes...</p><p>I know guilds who have a fair amount of lvl 70 brawlers, but not every guild will have this luxury... And how many lvl 70 coercers are running about?</p><p> To me it looks like, yet again, very specific raid setups will be required in order to get a decent raid effeciency. Only, the amount of people playing the classes that will be required to obtain such a setup, is too low at this moment. </p>

[PaganSaint]

Increasing Spell Haste by a more than significant amount (monk raid wide) will not lower the raid DPS, if anything it will increase it by a large margin due to the way spell proc's are working currently. The changes to the Paladin and Shadowknight buffs will increase healing or spell damage by a small amount, but even a small amount across the board is still an increase. So how do you come to the conclusion that it will lower over all raid DPS? The buff to spell haste alone will MORE than make up the ~400+/- DPS a monk will be behind an extra brig, swashy, necro that you would replace not to mention the ability of monks after this coming LU to decrease their group's hate gain.

[Aan'azyroth]

<p>I'm only in a casual guild, but the few times that i have seen brawlers on raids, they parse like 1.2k max, and only on very specific encounters. Sometimes i join a friendly guild's raids, whose brawlers parse like 400-600 mostly. Myself, i'm terrible at playing a dps class, but even without any special melee buffs my retired assassin parses 800-1.2k, while in the "left-over" group. Give me a dirge and fury and i parse 1.7k. I'm not saying those brawlers don't know their class, all i'm saying is that, in my experience, the average scout parses a lot higher than the average brawler. I'm happy to be proven wrong on this btw <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>Tbh i have not seen much specific information on the various raid-wide fighter buffs. The ones you mention seem indeed very nice, and should be able to make up for any loss in dps by inviting other classes into the raid that most guilds won't be used to... (edit, in this regard i was also thinking about pick-up raids, which, in general, are not eager to invite brawlers these days)</p>

[Couching]

The average CA damage between monk and swashy/assassin/ranger is about 900 dps. I have all master spells and my average dps from CA is about 500-600. The average CA of swashy/assassin/ranger in raid from parse is around 1500 dps. The average dps of brig is around  1200 dps. Bruiser is around 800 from a bruiser in different thread. Any swashy/assassian/ranger/brid should deal 600-900 more dps than monk with similar group buff or someone is slacking.

[Raidi Sovin'faile]

Knockout Combination and the way parses look on burst make it so Bruisers CA damage looks like hot stuff. How much DPS do Monks get with their autoattack then? Because the Monks I parse against are right up there with my in DPS numbers... both tend to hover around the 1k-1.2k mark unless we get into a well buffed group. If your CA damage is only ~500, are you doing ~500 DPS with your autoattack (adding in that you may be using Crane Flock here). Anyone know the damage on Dragonbreath now that it's had a "slight" increase? Cuz it can be used 3x in the space of one Knockout Combination now... which will translate to being used at least twice as often as Knockout Combo on a zonewide parse (maybe even closer to 2.5x more often depending on how long you take between pulls). Monks might be in line for a "slight" zonewide DPS increase.

[Couching]

How many dps i can make from auto-attack depends on what buff i can get from group. Also, it depends on if mobs are debuffed or not. It's really hard to tell.

[Ramius613]

Generally when I look at my zonewide parses, and this is in any situation, solo, group, or raid. My DPS is about 50/50 between CAs, and autoattack. I usually do about 900-1200 zonewide, depending on extraneous circumstances.

[Bladewind]

I usually do 60-65% of my damage from auto attack, sometimes as much as 70%.  I do use crane flock almost every time it is available, though, so that will up my auto attack contribution.  I just specced intot he monk eo combo ability to try it out, but I am worried that teh extra proc damage will basically make up for the two auto attacks i miss by spamming CAs to use combo.

[Madmoon]

Nashy@Splitpaw wrote: <blockquote>Kaisoku@Mistmoore wrote: <p>Looks like some AA lines will become mandatory, despite SoE claiming the opposite when AAs where introduced...</p><p>I know guilds who have a fair amount of lvl 70 brawlers, but not every guild will have this luxury... And how many lvl 70 coercers are running about?</p><p> To me it looks like, yet again, very specific raid setups will be required in order to get a decent raid effeciency. Only, the amount of people playing the classes that will be required to obtain such a setup, is too low at this moment. </p></blockquote><p> I've heard this line so many times..... look, there still is NO mandatory lines.  If you don't raid, you don't need this set up.  If you don't take on multiple monsters often, you don't need WIS line.  And on.  EoF AAs even more so.  But if you do, then, viola, now you have a useful option!</p><p>As far as <i>requiring</i> brawlers along?!?  This is an argument for the button mashers.  You only need specific raid setups if you have robots htting the same sequence constantly.  This might <gasp!!> require creativity and experimentation and flexibility.  "With <i>this</i> setup we'll have to try the fight this way, with <i>that</i> setup, we're going to need to..." Etc.</p><p>I'd love to see the day that a bruiser is REQUIRED on a raid.  Hoo!  But I haven't drank like that since my college days.</p>

[BChizzle]

Not sure where you guys are getting your parse numbers but a monk can do 1600-2k zone wide pretty easy in a melee buffed group.  Either your monks suck, aren't buffed or they need better gear.

[Timaarit]

<cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote>Not sure where you guys are getting your parse numbers but a monk can do 1600-2k zone wide pretty easy in a melee buffed group.  Either your monks suck, aren't buffed or they need better gear. </blockquote>My highest so far in EoF has been 1,4k. Other monks that I have seen parses from there have been doing <1,3k. I have never seen a monk parse >1,5k zonewide in t7 raid. I have come close once in Lyceum though. My monk is fully fabled and using razor gauntlets and staff from crab. But I suppose you are one of those 'I have a friend who says monks can...'.

[Taiken]

<cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote>Not sure where you guys are getting your parse numbers but a monk can do 1600-2k zone wide pretty easy in a melee buffed group.  Either your monks suck, aren't buffed or they need better gear. </blockquote><p>[Removed for Content].. The only way this is possible is if a monk will [Removed for Content] his defense and resists and equip all STR Gear. eat Str food/drink, use grand master str potions.. master your speed buffs.  With the added weapon procs and adornments.. </p><p>That is the only way a monk I know, in fabled gear + adornments and AA lines speced for dps can do 1k to 2k damage.. Of ourse in labs they get wiped out by aoe's .. can't ma/ot cuz their agility is totally gimped.. so all they do is throw combat arts and procs.. that's it. One AOE/ 2x Melee hit they are down for the count in any raid zone (and they're a fighter class..) </p><p> The point we're trying to make here is.. our avoidance is crap... Unless we totally [Removed for Content] out str and wear only agi/resist armor.. Where as a zerker's avoidance while in offensive mode with plate and a shield has more avoidance and more mit and more str lol.. a bulky plate wearing barbarian is more agile than a cloth/leather wearing monk.. hilarous. </p><p>Our DPS is lame period.. The only way we do decent DPS is what I explained above, is if we totally [Removed for Content] out our other defensive stats.. </p><p>IF ANY DPS class did what us monks do to even get on parce, they would sky rocket their damage... Totally [Removed for Content] all their resists defensive and go straight into STR/INT and respec their AA's jsut for DPS.. honestly hands down you know that a monk will fall way behind again. Luckily DPS classes dont have to [Removed for Content] themselves and still do good damge - us brawlers dont have this option, it's either one way or the other. </p>

[Kantaro]

When it comes to tweaking brawlers, I see it as this: Monks may have been a DPS class in EQ1, but this is EQ<b>2</b>. Not <b>1</b>. They are under the fighter archetype in this game, and they deserve buffs in that spectrum. Thats my two cp.

[Ramius613]

You're correct, usually I am in with the rogues, and don't get many buffs (selfish [Removed for Content]). I use the Twins. I have tried my other weapons, but have only seen an equal or slightly less dps using them.

[Zabjade]

<p><span style="color: #00cc00">Oddly enough I use a staff more when I solo, but I suppose for raiding I'll duel wield as well. </span></p>

[Ramius613]

<p>Ok quick question, as I've seen it pointed out here as well as a couple other threads.  Is the monk haste/casting speed buff going to be raid wide?  From what I've seen of the desription, it only refers to the group.  I know that Traquil Vision will now be able to be applied to someone in the raid.  Could someone clarify please?</p>

[Nerill]

<cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote>Not sure where you guys are getting your parse numbers but a monk can do 1600-2k zone wide pretty easy in a melee buffed group.  Either your monks suck, aren't buffed or they need better gear. </blockquote><img src="/smilies/2786c5c8e1a8be796fb2f726cca5a0fe.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Sorry, a Monk can not do 1600 - 2k zone wide "pretty easy". As a matter of fact, a Monk can not do that kind of zone wide damage with difficulty. Unless you are talking about raiding Labs or other zones where there are plenty of Lv 70 and below MOBs. Only then might you parse 1600 - 1800 zone wide. Or, the only other way you could come up with these inflated numbers might be that you are looking at "<b>DPS</b>" and not "<u><b>extDPS</b></u>" <u>extdps</u> is a much more accurate way of showing DPS using A.C.T.

[Raidi Sovin'faile]

No it's not. Neither are a perfect representation of your DPS. ExtDPS is based on the start of the entire fight. DPS is based on when you started. ExtDPS gets lowered if you are a good raider and wait for the DPS call. If the MT forgets to hit his macro, and you actually bothered to listen and wait, then your DPS sucks. If you needed to get into the right position (or what for it to be positioned), then your DPS sucks. You were in the middle of typing asking for a heart/shard or buff or whatever, and started a bit later.. then your DPS sucks. How is that in any way a good "representation" or your potential DPS? The only way DPS can be skewed is if you wait til near the end of the fight and spam a bunch of large attacks. If you fight normally, and it lasts longer than 20-30 seconds, you've got a fine representation of your DPS without a million and one factors screwing it up. We <i>are</i> talking about DPS potential right? Not "how much DPS can you do if the MT runs the mob around in circles for 30 seconds before each fight"? A zerker saying he's pulling down 2k DPS is what we are comparing to here.. so let's get equivalent numbers.

[Nerill]

OK Tonight's EH Raid. Early on I was grouped with: Swashy, Templar, Brigand, Zerker and Dirge On ONE fight my extDPS was 2K. Only once did I hit 2K extDPS. In the 14 encounters before groups were switched around, my average <u>EXTDPS</u> was 1.52K. My regular <u>DPS</u> would be <i>around 1.8K.</i> End of the raid parse for me: DPS - 1473.89 EXTDPS - 1191.11 <b>Pretty big difference.</b> While I agree that neither are a "perfect" representation of our DPS, I feel that EXTDPS is the better of the 2. I believe that EXTDPS is the <i>more</i> accurate way to determine how much DPS <i>you are providing to the raid</i>. Our tanks do not run MOBs around for 30 seconds. The only factor that really messes up an accurate DPS parse is during a raid wipe if you are one of the first to go down. You are doing ZERO DPS for the 20 - 30 seconds it takes for the MOB to run around killing everyone. The bottom line is that in all the hundreds and hundreds of DPS arguments on the boards, no one bothers to say weather they are referring to <u>EXTDPS</u> or simply <u>DPS</u>. As you can see there is about a 23.5% increase in my reported DPS when I don't use extDPS. <b>Either way</b> ( DPS / extDPS ) Zerkers in the same group who are in Offensive Stance out-DPS Monks, and that is just not right ! <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Raidi Sovin'faile]

Well, the reason I say that DPS shows a better representation of your DPS is because it takes things like positioning, DPS calls, etc, out of the equation. The less affecting the score that isn't related to WHY you did the DPS you did, the better. Essentially, since ExtDPS can have so many varying factors, it's hard to say on a zonewide parse if one particular AA spec was better for you or another... maybe your tank was hungover (or drunk! I've had that happen before), who knows.. but DPS doesn't run into the same issues and you can do better comparisons. I agree though, a standard should be set when comparing. 400-600 DPS on a Monk sounds low... but if you have some strange raid customs that you adhere to, it may be skewing things a little. Then again, ALL DPS scores should be lower... like t1 dps would be looking like 1k-1.5k ish. *shrug*

[BChizzle]

Banzai@Unrest wrote: <blockquote><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote>Not sure where you guys are getting your parse numbers but a monk can do 1600-2k zone wide pretty easy in a melee buffed group.  Either your monks suck, aren't buffed or they need better gear. </blockquote><img src="/smilies/2786c5c8e1a8be796fb2f726cca5a0fe.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Sorry, a Monk can not do 1600 - 2k zone wide "pretty easy". As a matter of fact, a Monk can not do that kind of zone wide damage with difficulty. Unless you are talking about raiding Labs or other zones where there are plenty of Lv 70 and below MOBs. Only then might you parse 1600 - 1800 zone wide. Or, the only other way you could come up with these inflated numbers might be that you are looking at "<b>DPS</b>" and not "<u><b>extDPS</b></u>" <u>extdps</u> is a much more accurate way of showing DPS using A.C.T. </blockquote>Lets imagine you actually had some crit gear SoD weapon in your off hand instead of fist of bashing and you were buffed right.  Now that you have this image can you possible see your zone wide go up 200+?  If you can't I will be more specific 2k zone wide in the following zones.  CWM, EH floor 1-2 (no rumbler), FTH (3rd guy can hurt this one but the 6k group fights help), DT, Labs, HoS, Lycuem.  Don't believe it?  I'll come on one of your raids and show you.

[BChizzle]

Kaisoku@Mistmoore wrote: <blockquote>Well, the reason I say that DPS shows a better representation of your DPS is because it takes things like positioning, DPS calls, etc, out of the equation. The less affecting the score that isn't related to WHY you did the DPS you did, the better. Essentially, since ExtDPS can have so many varying factors, it's hard to say on a zonewide parse if one particular AA spec was better for you or another... maybe your tank was hungover (or drunk! I've had that happen before), who knows.. but DPS doesn't run into the same issues and you can do better comparisons. I agree though, a standard should be set when comparing. 400-600 DPS on a Monk sounds low... but if you have some strange raid customs that you adhere to, it may be skewing things a little. Then again, ALL DPS scores should be lower... like t1 dps would be looking like 1k-1.5k ish. *shrug* </blockquote> I use EXTDps if you did straight dps I would imagine it would be much much higher.

[Timaarit]

<cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote>Lets imagine you actually had some crit gear SoD weapon in your off hand instead of fist of bashing and you were buffed right. </blockquote>So to prove your point you need to use imaginary numbers.

[BChizzle]

<cite>Timaarit wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote>Lets imagine you actually had some crit gear SoD weapon in your off hand instead of fist of bashing and you were buffed right. </blockquote>So to prove your point you need to use imaginary numbers. </blockquote> Actually I looked at his gear, he has no crit gear whatsoever and is using fist of bashing.  Now you take the group he had add a dirge and better gear and his 1.5k becomes 2k.  Hell drop the swash and add a coercer then see how high he flys.

[Couching]

<cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote>Banzai@Unrest wrote: <blockquote><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote>Not sure where you guys are getting your parse numbers but a monk can do 1600-2k zone wide pretty easy in a melee buffed group.  Either your monks suck, aren't buffed or they need better gear. </blockquote><img src="/smilies/2786c5c8e1a8be796fb2f726cca5a0fe.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Sorry, a Monk can not do 1600 - 2k zone wide "pretty easy". As a matter of fact, a Monk can not do that kind of zone wide damage with difficulty. Unless you are talking about raiding Labs or other zones where there are plenty of Lv 70 and below MOBs. Only then might you parse 1600 - 1800 zone wide. Or, the only other way you could come up with these inflated numbers might be that you are looking at "<b>DPS</b>" and not "<u><b>extDPS</b></u>" <u>extdps</u> is a much more accurate way of showing DPS using A.C.T. </blockquote>Lets imagine you actually had some crit gear SoD weapon in your off hand instead of fist of bashing and you were buffed right.  Now that you have this image can you possible see your zone wide go up 200+?  If you can't I will be more specific 2k zone wide in the following zones.  CWM, EH floor 1-2 (no rumbler), FTH (3rd guy can hurt this one but the 6k group fights help), DT, Labs, HoS, Lycuem.  Don't believe it?  I'll come on one of your raids and show you. </blockquote>Not really, you have to consider your raid dps also. Why? Since we don't have enough burst damage. If your raid dps is higher and can finish most fights under 30 sec, we will have less damage comparing to others since most of our big CA is 30 sec reuse (actually it's small CA comparing to other classes). Also, even you have 150+ haste and dps buff, it didn't guarantee you did over 2k or not even 1.5k in every fight especially short fight since  you may get roll on small hit or miss  a lot.  Not to say,  it also depends on how much mobs are debuffed.  For example, a world wide top guild did 35k zone wide dps in EH. Their bruiser did 1.8k zone wide dps. That bruiser has Cmayong weapons not to say bruiser has about average 200 dps ahead of monk in raid. Generally speaking, it's really inaccurate to claim that monk can hit 2k zonewide easily since too many factors may affect our dps. We are not rogue/predator. They can hit 2k zone wide easily with their big damage CA. From my parse, average dps of their CA damage in raid is about 1500. In other word, they can break 2k dps with only 500 dps from auto-attack. It's piece of cake. Though, for monk, it's totally different. I have all master spells and my average dps from CA is only 500-600. Of course, just as I said, my guild has nice zone wide dps so that it hurts my dps much. Usually, I have lower dps on short fights but above average dps on sustained fight.

[Timaarit]

<cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Timaarit wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote>Lets imagine you actually had some crit gear SoD weapon in your off hand instead of fist of bashing and you were buffed right. </blockquote>So to prove your point you need to use imaginary numbers. </blockquote> Actually I looked at his gear, he has no crit gear whatsoever and is using fist of bashing.  Now you take the group he had add a dirge and better gear and his 1.5k becomes 2k.  Hell drop the swash and add a coercer then see how high he flys. </blockquote>You are still presenting imaginary numbers. He didn't even say he was doing 1,5k exept maybe in Labs. As for the crit gear, from 20% crits to 100% crits, you will gain roughly 25% dps. The group already was with a dirge. No way you can get 33% DPS from crit gear, after all, you have what, 15 spots for gear with 2% crit each. 30% more crits means at best less than 15% more DPS. So adding crit gear wont take you to 2k from the imaginary number you presented. Coercer adds DPS but in the group he was in, I would already be proccing to 150dps. So again no way you can get 2k with the factors you present.

[Nerill]

<cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote>Actually I looked at his gear, he has no crit gear whatsoever and is using fist of bashing.  Now you take the group he had add a dirge and better gear and his 1.5k becomes 2k.  Hell drop the swash and add a coercer then see how high he flys. </blockquote>I have plenty of weapons as backup / situational weapons: Scepter of Destruction Marr's Fist Bonetooth Skewer Fists of Pain Along with the 2 that I use in raid: Razor Gauntlets Fists of Bashing ( which I use because a high delay weapon is supposedly better with Raid Buffs ) If I should be using one of the 4 weapons sitting in my bags, by all means, let me know! I think I know my class very well, but I am always willing to take advice from other good Monks. <u><i>So can you answer a few questions for me ?</i></u> 1. Can we get a link to your character on EQ2Players so we can see what you are using ? I thought my equipment was pretty good but maybe I am [Removed for Content]. /shrug 2. What <u>crit gear</u> (specific items ) are so good that it can increase your DPS by 20 - 25% overall ? 3. When you report your DPS, are you <b>sure</b> you are referring to ACT's "<u>extDPS</u>" ? As I've shown, there is a <i>big difference</i>. I just can not believe that you <b>consistently</b> parse 2K <b>zonewide</b> in <b>extDPS</b> "pretty easy". If you can .... awesome ! You are one of the top Monks in the game and I <u>definitely would be wise to listen well</u> to any advice that you can offer.

[PaganSaint]

<p>I have pretty much given up all hope on any real improvements for brawlers prior to RoK and even post RoK it is probable nothing will be seen. But this argument drew me back in, maybe if people can learn weapon choice and smart group/buff requests we can solidify as a community and exert more pressure rather than argue over topics that aren't changing because people are set in their ways, won't explain their ways, and/or refuse to see explanations.</p><p>As a monk you should generally be using the slowest two hand you can lay hands on. </p><p>With the slowest dual wields available a monk can sel buff them down to the point where he will be missing a very large number of auto attacks. The Fist of Bashing/Razor Gauntlets for example at 2.5s delay, the slowest you can have at the moment for dual wields as a brawler, haste down with even a moderately buffed/geared Monk to .7/.8s(Can't recall exact rounding) Delay.</p><p>Besides many missed auto attacks your proc rate on your successful auto attacks is going to be incredibly miniscule.</p><p>The straight auto attack only potential of the dual wields is going to be greater than the two hand. <i>If you are only auto attacking</i>.</p><p>Ideally, with as much haste as a monk is bringing to the table, you will want to be using a 3s delay weapon. <i>At a minimum. </i>A 3s delay will haste down to ~1.2s which is cutting it fine with very little room for error on timing.<i> </i>While a 4-5s delay is ideal. This will haste down to ~1.5s to 2s delays(been awhile since I've maxed haste with my vrak). This is about perfect for timing CAs if you are actively pursuing maxing your DPS.</p><p>Also you need to consider a dirge alone will add ~300 DPS to anyone, potentially even more to a Monk if they are maxed on haste and are carrying a high rating, low delay two hand to swap in during CoB, more blade chime procs equals more DPS, just remember to swap back to your slow two hand for CA timing inbetween CoB casts. Make sure the dirge is running Rianas, Tombs and Disso boon, if he is running half tank buffs tell him to drop Rianas instead of Tombs and if he is dropping Disso, fire him. No to mention make sure both the dirge is spec'd into Luck of the Dirge and the Templar into Blessing. Both are tremendous DPS increasers.</p><p>As for proc'ing out at 150 DPS with that group... Not with a monk. 25 From Zerker, 32 From Dirge, lets be generous and say 35 from non proc gear, 23 from ring. Just over 100. A coercer would be putting him over that 150 mark, which is what I think you meant, but didn't read as such.</p><p>More crit gear over gear with stats or crap effects like FT/Regen and for monks Haste would show an improvement when compined with a two hand compared to even just upgrading the gear and using dual wields. Clawed Basilisk boots should be at the top of the list also.</p><p>If you feel you <i>must</i> use dual wields you will actually increase your DPS by using only your highest damage CAs, none of the rest. </p><p>And if you're going to dual wield, atleast be using the SoD kama, its the second best dual wield DPS wise in the game, and a very close second at that. Looking at the weapon choice listed above, get your SoD and put it in your off hand with Razor Gauntlets in primary so you can swap the Sceptor of Destruction in during CoB to maximize your Blade Chime procs, and as soon as it ends, swap back.</p><p>Percentage based proc's are your friend with as much haste as a monk has, so being spec'd into both Crane Twirl and Mantis Bolt will give you more bang for your buck than spec'ing down for Crane flock to use randomly throughout the zone.</p><p>EDIT: Monk ZW I would be very impressed and don't doubt there are a few that can achieve 2k, but that is with built groups to maximize each group in the raid's DPS. 1800 ZW is rather more achievable if difficult, while 1700 is a very realistic goal. Expect ~200-300 more DPS out of a Bruiser currently due to the way raid buffing caters more to someone who isn't near max on haste already and/or has slower than 3s delay dual wields if they do self buff to near max haste like a Swashbuckler.</p>

[Nerill]

Thank you PaganSaint for the info. Although I don't always agree with some of your posts, I very much respect your insight and opinions as one of our community. I am working on the SoD quest. ( I am still collecting totems ). I thought I was using a good combo for Duel Wield weapons with the right delay, but when a Monk who "easily" posts 2K <i>zonewide</i> comes along, I felt I might be doing something wrong.

[Zabjade]

<span style="color: #00cc00">I'm still collecting totems as well I have all of the Old Antonica ones just need the Obilisk and the Fadwyer ones, many of which will require a group.</span>

[PaganSaint]

Banzai@Unrest wrote: <blockquote>Thank you PaganSaint for the info. Although I don't always agree with some of your posts, I very much respect your insight and opinions as one of our community. I am working on the SoD quest. ( I am still collecting totems ). I thought I was using a good combo for Duel Wield weapons with the right delay, but when a Monk who "easily" posts 2K <i>zonewide</i> comes along, I felt I might be doing something wrong. </blockquote>No problem. Same thing, I may disagree with what you say, but I understand where you're coming from. A monk who is parsing 2k ZW consistently is at the very minimum using a vraksakin claw club with every crit item he can lay hands on, and is very probably wearing the PHH double attack hat, clawed basilisk boots, a wanderer earring, exiled for the rallos cloak, and is grouped with a dirge, zerker, inquisitor, coercer and/or assassin for apply poison.

[Wolphin]

<p>I only have one thing to say. I don't want to be a DPS, I want to tank. Not everyone is a raider. Not everyone made their monk to DPS. Some people made their monks to be the tank for a group. Monks are suppossed to be able to tank, I want that addressed and fixed. I don't want a solution that is putting us into another role instead of fixing us to be able to tank like we were suppossed to.</p>

[Zabjade]

<p><span style="color: #00cc00">Especially since Tanks out-DPS us. We are not DPS we are Haste.</span></p>

[BChizzle]

<cite>Wolphin wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>I only have one thing to say. I don't want to be a DPS, I want to tank. Not everyone is a raider. Not everyone made their monk to DPS. Some people made their monks to be the tank for a group. Monks are suppossed to be able to tank, I want that addressed and fixed. I don't want a solution that is putting us into another role instead of fixing us to be able to tank like we were suppossed to.</p></blockquote> You can tank any group zone in this game in WU gear so what is your complaint?

[Couching]

So did every scout except bard. They have better mitigation, better aggro control and better dps.   What we have is higher hp and higher avoidance. We didn't have clear advantage in tanking comparing to scout. Though, scout has clear advantage in dpsing. For high end, they have average 900+ higher dps from their CA and poison. Also, they can tank as well as us. I am not kidding. Some high end guilds have swashy tanking adds in avatar fights since swashy did better dps than any fighter with respectable tanking capability.   Seriously, brawler should have clear advantage in tanking comparing to scout since they have 900+ more dps than us. PS: Even in group encounters, some groups have cleared Nizara or CMM with swashy as MT.

[Raidi Sovin'faile]

Yeah... there's a difference between being ABLE to tank encounters, and having to work harder at it than a NON-TANK class. This is something that really needs looking into.

[Hydor]

<p>They should add an ability to all fighter classes that allows them to take a hit. They added aggression, why not add a different type of recovery that allows you to keep your senses and keep fighting after being hit if you are a fighter or get stunned or something if you are a scout depending on the hit(s) you are taking. There is something like that, mages (and healers maybe? never played one) need focus not to get interrupted if they are being hit. Scouts have no penalty, add a penalty and leave the fighting to fighters imo.</p><p>Editing because after clicking submit I get another idea I like. Suppose all fighters get this skill and scouts don't (so that people actually need a fighter class to group/raid) but in different degrees, wouldn't that be a nice tool to use to make some raid encounters fit much better a certain type of fighter? It would be a hell of a lot easier to make encounters that need a brawler to tank vs a plate, maybe add some fights for crusaders that don't have an easy time either wouldn't it...?</p>

[Raidi Sovin'faile]

Any fight with a mob that has a massive damage shield would be good for a Crusader. A large portion of a Crusader's DPS can come from spells if they spec right. Removing autoattack and melee CA's won't reduce their DPS by nearly as much as any other fighter type (like 99% of any other fighter DPS is melee/autoattack). Corsolander in Labs is a good example of a fight where a Crusader can hold aggro better. There's just not that many encounters that require such a thing.

[miliskel]

how u gonna make an encounter better tanked by a bruiser? make it unable to attack leather? increases targets hate to it by 1k if wearing leather? crusaders areeasy but brawlers..when are they going to tank? unless u increase all there attacks damage by about 1k so that high end guilds brawlers are best dps and low end guilds can compare with other brawlers

[Bladewind]

<cite>miliskel wrote:</cite><blockquote>how u gonna make an encounter better tanked by a bruiser? </blockquote> How about making it such that the avoidance tank has higher avoidance than the mitigation tank?  Boggling, I know.

[Raidi Sovin'faile]

Well, the other poster was talking about adding a skill that made Fighters ignore stuns, etc, similar to what Focus does for casting... except that Scouts wouldn't have it and some Fighters would get a bonus to it. So I was under the impression that Brawlers in this case would have a major bonus to ignoring stuns, etc, and thus be the "primary tanks" for Stun heavy mobs/encounters. This WOULD in fact give a Brawler a good spot in a raid if such mobs were made plentiful. Just like high damage shield mobs need to be made more proliferant for Crusaders to be more useful. Technically another tank could do it, just would have a harder time at it... so the worry about "requiring" a tank that might not be available wouldn't exist, to an extent (Corsolander requires lowering DPS by a lot unless you totally bug the encounter). This would require constant understanding by the Devs to have such mobs in the game at all times, and with all expansions though. It's a concept that relies totally on the Devs <b>creating</b> artificially important encounters for inferior classes.. instead of making the classes equivalent in power in regular situations. I dunno.. considering how often Dev teams get switched up, I wouldn't be surprised if new content would completely lack fundamentals for Crusader and Brawler tanks, even after such a change. As it is, I'd much rather have the level of ability to Tank thrust into the hands of the PLAYER, thus making it his choice and dedication that decides whether he's good at Tanking, based on his ability at playing a tank class (aware of the encounter and how his abilities should be used), and his in-game choices (gear and AA spec choices). This means it's more about Player Skill, than a Dev team holding our hands through encounters to make us useful.

[metacell]

<cite>miliskel wrote:</cite><blockquote>how u gonna make an encounter better tanked by a bruiser? make it unable to attack leather? increases targets hate to it by 1k if wearing leather? crusaders areeasy but brawlers..when are they going to tank? unless u increase all there attacks damage by about 1k so that high end guilds brawlers are best dps and low end guilds can compare with other brawlers </blockquote>I agree with Bladewind. Against Epics, especially of a higher level, plate tanks actually have more avoidance than brawlers. Plate tanks get uncontested avoidance from their shields (that is, avoidance that is not modified by their opponent's skill level). Brawlers have very little uncontested avoidance, so their avoidance melts away to almost nothing against higher-skilled enemies - like Epics. I think that's just broken. It's meant be the other way around - since brawlers have less mitigation, they should have better avoidance. As they face tougher and tougher Epics, their avoidance should melt away slower than a plate tank's - not faster. This seems to be a pure mistake from the side of SoE. When they revamped the combat system, many Epics completely ignored avoidance, making them far too hard to tank. SoE "fixed" it by adding uncontested avoidance to shields. Now plate tanks could tank epics above the level cap again - but brawlers were left out in the cold. I can't for my life figure out why SoE didn't make the brawlers' deflection skill uncontested too. Deflection is a brawler-only skill, and it's meant to be a substitute for the plate tank's shield. I can't see how that would have broken the game in any way.

[Novusod]

<cite>Hydor wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>They should add an ability to all fighter classes that allows them to take a hit. They added aggression, why not add a different type of recovery that allows you to keep your senses and keep fighting after being hit if you are a fighter or get stunned or something if you are a scout depending on the hit(s) you are taking. <span style="color: #cc0000">There is something like that, mages (and healers maybe? never played one) need focus not to get interrupted if they are being hit. Scouts have no penalty, add a penalty and leave the fighting to fighters imo.</span></p><p>Editing because after clicking submit I get another idea I like. Suppose all fighters get this skill and scouts don't (so that people actually need a fighter class to group/raid) but in different degrees, wouldn't that be a nice tool to use to make some raid encounters fit much better a certain type of fighter? It would be a hell of a lot easier to make encounters that need a brawler to tank vs a plate, maybe add some fights for crusaders that don't have an easy time either wouldn't it...?</p></blockquote>Mages, healers, and troubadors need their focus skill or they can be interupted by a mob's auto-attack. I think the other scouts should have to use their focus skill as well. One of the big reasons why the bards are so much weaker than the other scouts is that they can be interupted by auto-attack. Nerfing the non-bard scouts would not fix brawlers but it would go along way to helping class balance.

[Hydor]

<p>Well, what I was suggesting is a way to make tanks clearly needed in groups. Because as it is atm most instances can be tanked by scouts as well and this is... sick! The ranger in my guild can tank everything. Even Unrest-Nizara. Now I admit I wouldn't like to see my toon getting nurfed if I ahd a scout. But if scouts can tank then give me scout DPS, wouldn't that be fair?</p><p>I agree with the poster that said that making encounters for brawlers is not a solution. Well, yeah that was a bad idea. I agree they should balance classes instead of forcing people getting brawlers in raids. Still it would be another tool to use and make some fights a little different. I bet many scouts loved having to tank a mob in Inner Sanctum <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>So, the point is: give a heavy disadvantage or even make it impossible for scouts to tank for groups/raids instead of fighters.</p>

[Timaarit]

<cite>PaganSaint wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>I have pretty much given up all hope on any real improvements for brawlers prior to RoK and even post RoK it is probable nothing will be seen. But this argument drew me back in, maybe if people can learn weapon choice and smart group/buff requests we can solidify as a community and exert more pressure rather than argue over topics that aren't changing because people are set in their ways, won't explain their ways, and/or refuse to see explanations.</p><p>As a monk you should generally be using the slowest two hand you can lay hands on. </p><p>With the slowest dual wields available a monk can sel buff them down to the point where he will be missing a very large number of auto attacks. The Fist of Bashing/Razor Gauntlets for example at 2.5s delay, the slowest you can have at the moment for dual wields as a brawler, haste down with even a moderately buffed/geared Monk to .7/.8s(Can't recall exact rounding) Delay.</p><p>Besides many missed auto attacks your proc rate on your successful auto attacks is going to be incredibly miniscule.</p><p>The straight auto attack only potential of the dual wields is going to be greater than the two hand. <i>If you are only auto attacking</i>.</p><p>Ideally, with as much haste as a monk is bringing to the table, you will want to be using a 3s delay weapon. <i>At a minimum. </i>A 3s delay will haste down to ~1.2s which is cutting it fine with very little room for error on timing.<i> </i>While a 4-5s delay is ideal. This will haste down to ~1.5s to 2s delays(been awhile since I've maxed haste with my vrak). This is about perfect for timing CAs if you are actively pursuing maxing your DPS.</p><span style="color: #ccff00">This is why you should pick up the 2nd skill on Brawler Agi line, even at 4 points you will get 0,16s reduction on your overall CA time. Combine this with Switf Calms 0,065s reduction in the casting time and your CA's take 0,77 second to use. Now you wont be missing any autoattacks. </span><p>Also you need to consider a dirge alone will add ~300 DPS to anyone, potentially even more to a Monk if they are maxed on haste and are carrying a high rating, low delay two hand to swap in during CoB, more blade chime procs equals more DPS, just remember to swap back to your slow two hand for CA timing inbetween CoB casts. Make sure the dirge is running Rianas, Tombs and Disso boon, if he is running half tank buffs tell him to drop Rianas instead of Tombs and if he is dropping Disso, fire him. No to mention make sure both the dirge is spec'd into Luck of the Dirge and the Templar into Blessing. Both are tremendous DPS increasers.</p><p>As for proc'ing out at 150 DPS with that group... Not with a monk. 25 From Zerker, 32 From Dirge, lets be generous and say 35 from non proc gear, 23 from ring. Just over 100. A coercer would be putting him over that 150 mark, which is what I think you meant, but didn't read as such.</p><span style="color: #ccff00">You want Ring of the Four Winds to get the 5% decrease in reuse timers and then the STR ring. Against vampires you want the League line set as full. On a regular raid setting I am proccing up to 120 DPS mod even without the STR ring and am quite constantly at >200 haste mod. Marr's cloak has a proc for 15, 2 adornments for 20 base and then Ivy-Shrouded earring and Deepforest Fistwraps to give 14 more. So I start at 34 DPS mod. So against non-vampires I use the STR ring still (haven't found anything better).</span> <p>More crit gear over gear with stats or crap effects like FT/Regen and for monks Haste would show an improvement when compined with a two hand compared to even just upgrading the gear and using dual wields. Clawed Basilisk boots should be at the top of the list also.</p><span style="color: #ccff00">League set also gives total of 4% more crits.</span> <p>If you feel you <i>must</i> use dual wields you will actually increase your DPS by using only your highest damage CAs, none of the rest.</p><p><span style="color: #ccff00">Not necessarily if you picked up AGI line. Also if your autoattack hit is 1,5k and a CA slows it by 20%, you will lose 300 damage per hit but gain at least that same back even with the lowest damage CA's. My lowest damage CA is fro 282 to 471 which averages to be clearly more than what you lose.</span> </p><p>And if you're going to dual wield, atleast be using the SoD kama, its the second best dual wield DPS wise in the game, and a very close second at that. Looking at the weapon choice listed above, get your SoD and put it in your off hand with Razor Gauntlets in primary so you can swap the Sceptor of Destruction in during CoB to maximize your Blade Chime procs, and as soon as it ends, swap back.</p><p>Percentage based proc's are your friend with as much haste as a monk has, so being spec'd into both Crane Twirl and Mantis Bolt will give you more bang for your buck than spec'ing down for Crane flock to use randomly throughout the zone.</p><p> <span style="color: #ccff00">I use Crance Flock every time it is up. When it is, I can pretty much top the parse now that I have the fabled Kama. Exept on nameds when the fight lasts so long that the spike levels out. Mantis Bolt was 2% of my overall DPS, with proper use of Crane Flock I get much more than that. Against groups I pop it when I see message for Blade Chime, once I get aggro, I pop Tsunami and let it fly. Oh, Here I also equip my highest DR 2-hander and just autoattack.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ccff00">One usable thing is also +crushing items. 10 more crushing makes me hit about 2 to 3% more in EoF raidzones (at this point my skill is usually in range of 400 to 430).</span> </p><p>EDIT: Monk ZW I would be very impressed and don't doubt there are a few that can achieve 2k, but that is with built groups to maximize each group in the raid's DPS. 1800 ZW is rather more achievable if difficult, while 1700 is a very realistic goal. Expect ~200-300 more DPS out of a Bruiser currently due to the way raid buffing caters more to someone who isn't near max on haste already and/or has slower than 3s delay dual wields if they do self buff to near max haste like a Swashbuckler.</p></blockquote>Nah, monk ZW is not impressive even when in great group. I have been parsing 5th on FTH lately (up to Malkonis), right after assassin, ranger, necro and swashy. But then we have lately been missing our best conju and all sorcerers. But at least now I can beat the zerkers. Oh, last time I parsed 1,5k up to Treyloth. That fight dropped me down to 1,3k. Against Malkonis I was beating the coffins but once I joined the fight, I parsed 3rd during the time I was actually fighting. Zonewide ended up to be a bit over 1k. BTW, my last, and only, 2k zonewide is from Courts...