remove titles

[Eybietie]

it will result better and more pvp.

[The_Real_Ohno]

<p>Here we go again <img src="/smilies/1cfd6e2a9a2c0cf8e74b49b35e2e46c7.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>Ppl will still run if theres no titles, ppl dont like to die period.  If its not titles, it will be KvD why there runnin.</p>

[Eybietie]

<p>i don´t agree with it. only people i see runnign/ cliff diving have high titles. it´ll take some time to make people realize that they don´t have to defend their precious titles - but it´ll work out.</p>

[Eybietie]

<p>all people i know only complain about fame/ infamy loss when they die. all people comlpaining about getting killed on the forums are angry because the lost fame/ infamy. that is a fact - because you can read it on the forums. you have posted your personal opinion - that is not a fact. pls give me an indication about what makes you sure people would run because of their KvD?</p>

[The_Real_Ohno]

<p>Ive seen many ppl cliff dive, and yet no fame involved.  Want to explain that?</p><p>Ive seen ppl run and zone with no fame involved. Explain?</p><p>Ppl run cause they dont want to die.  Simple fact and removin titles will not solve anythin.</p>

[Eybietie]

it will. i´m sure of that. maybe the people you mentioned didn´t want to grant you their kill but they are trained in running and zoning and stuff due to title mechanic. in the long end people will stop that.

[The_Real_Ohno]

W/e your opinions, it still wont happen.  Titles or no titles, ppl will still run/cliff dive.

[Eybietie]

Ohnoez@Nagafen wrote: <blockquote>W/e your opinions, it still wont happen.  Titles or no titles, ppl will still run/cliff dive.</blockquote>people said that about lvl locking too and now it´s getting *looked at*

[The_Real_Ohno]

Shadexxx@Nagafen wrote: <blockquote>Ohnoez@Nagafen wrote: <blockquote>W/e your opinions, it still wont happen.  Titles or no titles, ppl will still run/cliff dive.</blockquote>people said that about lvl locking too and now it´s getting *looked at* </blockquote><p>Has nothin to do with titles dude, lvl lockin was an issue towards noobs and professional players.</p><p>Just cause some get upset about losing fame goes to show they are for titles, if they arnt for titles, they woulnt give a crap if they lost/won fame now would they?</p><p>Just goes back to what I said, ppl will always run.  By your terms, they will be runnin because they didnt "grant" u the kill.  No titles there, and ppl are still runnin, dont seem like titles will fix anythin.  Some will run because they want there uber 300:1 KvD ratio, others didnt "grant" u the kill <img src="/smilies/2786c5c8e1a8be796fb2f726cca5a0fe.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> and some will just run for the hell of it.  </p><p>Titles will not solve the problem with ppl runnin away. </p>

[zorros]

Shadexxx@Nagafen wrote: <blockquote><p>all people i know only complain about fame/ infamy loss when they die. all people comlpaining about getting killed on the forums are angry because the lost fame/ infamy. that is a fact - because you can read it on the forums. you have posted your personal opinion - that is not a fact. pls give me an indication about what makes you sure people would run because of their KvD?</p></blockquote>KvD means alot more to me than titles tbh.

[Eybietie]

ok - remove titles and remove death count. i don´t see the point in kvd. where is the problem with optional titles? or make it like first title for 1k kills next title 5k etc etc. and make the real high titles like 100k kills or something. now that zoning while engaged is not possible anymore i think it would really make more people to test their skills instead of waiting for the perfect group setup before engaging.

[Bozidar]

Shadexxx@Nagafen wrote: <blockquote><p>all people i know only complain about fame/ infamy loss when they die. all people comlpaining about getting killed on the forums are angry because the lost fame/ infamy. that is a fact - because you can read it on the forums. you have posted your personal opinion - that is not a fact. pls give me an indication about what makes you sure people would run because of their KvD?</p></blockquote><p> I think you need to go to dictionary.com and find the definitions of opinion and fact.</p>

[MaCloud1032]

if we base titles off of # of kills what will stop people from farming greys

[Wytie]

<p>OMG somebody ran from me </p><p>OMG somebody zone hopped from me</p><p>OMG somebody cliff dove from me</p><p>OMG somebody took an armor hit for me <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> so what, it happens, sure its lame but punishing others cause of some is weak. Just move on catch em later they will slip up one day and when that day comes just be glad you made them crush there mouse and keyboard over a slilly game. Look its this simple some people just suck IRL so when they suck in game they break RL things just be glad to be the one that make them do it.....</p><p>Honestly crying here makes you just as bad as them, EARN your kill and quit carebearing SOE to give it to you.</p><p>I'll tell you the same thing i tell people who log on the alts to cry to me about owning them; "Get over it,  move on, learn from your mistakes & <i>make your skit better than the last time</i>"</p>

[Broccoliswo]

titles shouldn't be removed, but I think with the new changes, which make it impossible to get away from combat, the way they are obtained should be looked at. For instance, yesterday we were fighting a Darkhand exile 6 man group near the spire on whisperwind, and after a few died, a x3 of freeport comes by, and since we are all still in combat, we all die and i lose master fame. with the current system, it is almost impossible to get fame at higher titles cause everyone that has it goes to any length to prevent losing it (such as mordumor who screen drags after cliff diving). being unable to get away and in a fight when a raid comes kinda negates the way the fame system currently works. it needs looking at. also, an infamy bar would be helpful (im sure people have said this 57479579 times to no avail)

[Pumancat]

<p>I don't give a crap about titles, all I want is a fairly even match where skill, and quick decisions on what to cast are the main factors. NOT being killed in 2 - 4 seconds.</p><p>I played a shaman on EQ1 (Rallos Zek) and fought many different classes and characters, some good, some bad, some higher lvl, some lower lvl.</p><p>But always good, even fights.</p><p>KvD is a nice little addition, but I rarely look at that now that I've been 70 for over a month.</p><p>Just give me a decent fight.</p><p>Nyarlath - 70 wizard</p><p>Venekor server</p>

[The_Real_Ohno]

Some kind of fame bar would be awesome.

[Krokous]

better idea: make title harder to get AND that you cant loose it! ppl will pvp alot...

[shalom]

<p>Think about titles for a minute...they are an attept to 'reward' skilled players and encourage players to become more skilled.  The assumption (and its a big one) is that everything else is equal....gear, group size, twinkage, etc.</p><p>Titles are imperfect.</p><p>Many have chosen to exploit that fact to obtain titles they dont deserve. Many have not.</p><p>Until SOE steps up and shines some light on the mechanics of fame/imfamy there will always be those who are over or under-titled.  How much fame/imfamy do you lose when you die to a group of 4 vs 1 on 1? How much do you gain when you take down a group of 3? I think it's safe to assume we would find the answers to these questions unpleasant if not enraging...so there are none.</p><p>In short, I don't think titles are broken...its the mechanics of fame/infamy that are broken. </p><p>Lets stop asking SOE to come up with something better (doubt they can), instead lets ask for the metrics so *we* can come up with solutions.</p>

[EQGu]

<p>the whole engaging a person in a fair 1 v 1 then having his friends flyin to save him and take my infamy is pretty lame. For exampled i was fighting baws on desolation right? i engage he engages cool a nice 1 v 1, tbh im owning him im at like 90% or something and he is almost dead then wait... adelphi a healer another brig fly in, baws gets heals and i get stun locked and killed and no chance of getting away because im engaged.. its not like its happened once, we were fighting a 6 v 6 with overlords niizhoni and some others and we were winning even with their healer that revived and ran back. then all the sudden what? x2 of fp show up and run straight for us? coincidence?... anyways its just kinda lame and there is no way to make everyone happy </p><p> BUT to the op they shouldnt take out fame they should award it differently. Make it MUCH MUCH MUCH harder to get, but allow you to earn fame off of everyone, for no titles you get say like 1pt. from slayers 5pts destroyers 10pts and masters like 200 pts. but make it take like 1000 for hunter 2000 for slayer 5000 for destroyer etc. not exactly those numbers but you get my idea also you lose a certain # determined by who helps and if its 6 on 1 and you kill say a master for 200.. the master only loses like half if he is solo, and the group only gains 1/6th of it or something...</p><p>a infamy bar would be cool but i heard that this would never happen so oh well.</p><p>Also about fame, i never get upset about me losing fame or my title or w/e i just hate giving it to people especially people that dont deserve it. I could care less about my title (its why i engage 2 people at a time fight against my odds sometimes) but i hate newbs that gank fame from people 6 v 1 and have a high title and think they are uber or something is all.</p>

[Eybietie]

Broccolisword@Nagafen wrote: <blockquote>with the current system, it is almost impossible to get fame at higher titles <b>cause everyone that has it goes to any length to prevent losing it</b> (such as mordumor who screen drags after cliff diving). being unable to get away and in a fight when a raid comes kinda negates the way the fame system currently works. it needs looking at. also, an infamy bar would be helpful (im sure people have said this 57479579 times to no avail) </blockquote> that´s what i mean. people that are dedicated to their titles just chose easy win/ win fights. with above mentioned scenario people fight even less because they could get rolled by another team. and no it´s not that someone ran away from me humiliation - titles as they are now only bring hate to the game and causes player to exploit where it is possible to keep/ get that nifty title. btw i did not whine. <blockquote> I'll tell you the same thing i tell people who log on the alts to cry to me about owning them; "Get over it,  move on, learn from your mistakes & <i>make your skit better than the last time</i>"</blockquote> see - that is the problem. you can´t fight properly cause it´s allways the waaa waaa he killed me i lost fame story. people can cheat/ exploit whatever title way to easy. i think some kind of title system really has to be there in order to give people a goal or the motivation to advance etc. the fame/ infamy thing off of everyone ( point wise ) is a nice idea. also - you got the game mechanics that if some grp engages a pve encounter and another grp/ player jumps in and also makes dmg on them only the first grp that engaged will get xp/ loot / kill credit. why not apply that on pvp too? for example.

[Ikuri]

<p><i>Well the current title system rewards the ones that have a good balance between killing and surviving i nthyeir play style. However with the recent changes to being locked when you are in pvp combat, the whole portion of survival which is a major aspect of infamy/fame system is now null. If they go in with the changes to not being to use any method of escape whiel you are engaged in a pvp encounter then they need to disable the infamy system until they can comeup with some better idea. </i></p><p><i>However is totally disagree with awarding titles to people who kil lthe most. Killing the most means playignmore and in most cases zerging more. A skileld pvper knwosh ow to kil land how to survive. Battles in general are based much more on survival than killing itself. The whole idea of one on one duel belongs to a galidator and arenas. Open eviorment pvp is just that, open. Survival is a major aspect of it. </i></p><p><i>IMO they should disable the title if they are removing every escape method until they can think of something better ..doesnt make much sense to have a PVP title that is based on survival in a game where PVP survival is no longer possible.</i></p>

[Bozidar]

Ikuri wrote: <blockquote><p><i>Well the current title system rewards the ones that have a good balance between killing and surviving i nthyeir play style. However with the recent changes to being locked when you are in pvp combat, the whole portion of survival which is a major aspect of infamy/fame system is now null. If they go in with the changes to not being to use any method of escape whiel you are engaged in a pvp encounter then they need to disable the infamy system until they can comeup with some better idea. </i></p><p><i>However is totally disagree with awarding titles to people who kil lthe most. Killing the most means playignmore and in most cases zerging more. A skileld pvper knwosh ow to kil land how to survive. Battles in general are based much more on survival than killing itself. The whole idea of one on one duel belongs to a galidator and arenas. Open eviorment pvp is just that, open. Survival is a major aspect of it. </i></p><p><i>IMO they should disable the title if they are removing every escape method until they can think of something better ..doesnt make much sense to have a PVP title that is based on survival in a game where PVP survival is no longer possible.</i></p></blockquote><p> Ikuri, there is the same old original escape method that there always has been.  Kill your enemy.</p><p>If there is a bug forcing you into combat, so be it.  But if you engage.. then why should you be able to escape?  That's cheap.  Always was, and glad they fixed it.</p><p>And PvP survival IS possible, you know that.  Why all doom and gloom?</p>

[Wytie]

Shadexxx@Nagafen wrote: <blockquote>Broccolisword@Nagafen wrote: <blockquote>with the current system, it is almost impossible to get fame at higher titles <b>cause everyone that has it goes to any length to prevent losing it</b> (such as mordumor who screen drags after cliff diving). being unable to get away and in a fight when a raid comes kinda negates the way the fame system currently works. it needs looking at. also, an infamy bar would be helpful (im sure people have said this 57479579 times to no avail) </blockquote> that´s what i mean. people that are dedicated to their titles just chose easy win/ win fights. with above mentioned scenario people fight even less because they could get rolled by another team. and no it´s not that someone ran away from me humiliation - titles as they are now only bring hate to the game and causes player to exploit where it is possible to keep/ get that nifty title. btw i did not whine. <blockquote> I'll tell you the same thing i tell people who log on the alts to cry to me about owning them; "Get over it,  move on, learn from your mistakes & <i>make your skit better than the last time</i>"</blockquote><span style="color: #ff0000">Thats my fav responce btw <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></span> see - that is the problem. you can´t fight properly cause it´s allways the waaa waaa he killed me i lost fame story. <span style="color: #ff0000">but its pvp there is no proper sure we all hate dieing in lame situations but thats kinda just part of it, sure it rewards people who dont take risk but your reward of taking the risk is the fun you get enjoy it sometimes you cant have both </span>people can cheat/ exploit whatever title way to easy. i think some kind of title system really has to be there in order to give people a goal or the motivation to advance etc. the fame/ infamy thing off of everyone ( point wise ) is a nice idea. <span style="color: #ff0000">I agree not a bad idea really</span> also - you got the game mechanics that if some grp engages a pve encounter and another grp/ player jumps in and also makes dmg on them only the first grp that engaged will get xp/ loot / kill credit. why not apply that on pvp too? for example.<span style="color: #ff0000"> but its teh pvp part of the game it has its good and its bad with out that balence of good and bad there is no fun IMO, just encourages smarter game play, some just use cheap tricks but most of those peeps would use the cheap trick regardless jusr for the satifaction of ruining your day IMO  </span></blockquote>Taking away game freedoms are not fun even if it improves a psrt of the game play we have to just take the bad with teh good or teh good wont be fun. Anyway thats my 2cp

[Lowell_high]

atleast give us the option to reset our titles or not give out or take fame hits. 

[jam3]

Shadexxx@Nagafen wrote: <blockquote><p>all people i know only complain about fame/ infamy loss when they die. all people comlpaining about getting killed on the forums are angry because the lost fame/ infamy. that is a fact - because you can read it on the forums. you have posted your personal opinion - that is not a fact. pls give me an indication about what makes you sure people would run because of their KvD?</p></blockquote> ive had your guild kill me mainly when we werent ready or completely outnumbered but when we have our whole squad your guild evacs is that cause you cant lose champ fame?

[Vydar]

I completely and totally agree. Remove titles. People who hug immunity the worst are those who farmed/grouped/leeched infamy.  Those who walk out and fight are usually slayer-champ, sometimes dread.  I keep losing my dread because I don't want my title to interfere with my having fun pvp experiences. 

[Vydar]

Jubilee@Nagafen wrote: <blockquote>atleast give us the option to reset our titles or not give out or take fame hits.  </blockquote> That's about the dumbest thing I've ever heard. The option to "Not take fame hits?"  So... if everyone that gets a nice title turns their fame off, how do you get fame/infamy?  You can't.  Because as soon as anyone hits Dread, they'll turn it off till they see another Dread they know they can beat, then turn it back on.  Then turn it off after fight is over.  <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Cyst]

Aeryox@Nagafen wrote: <blockquote>Shadexxx@Nagafen wrote: <blockquote><p>all people i know only complain about fame/ infamy loss when they die. all people comlpaining about getting killed on the forums are angry because the lost fame/ infamy. that is a fact - because you can read it on the forums. you have posted your personal opinion - that is not a fact. pls give me an indication about what makes you sure people would run because of their KvD?</p></blockquote> ive had your guild kill me mainly when we werent ready or completely outnumbered but when we have our whole squad your guild evacs is that cause you cant lose champ fame? </blockquote> He doesn't want to talk about his running. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Ikuri]

<cite>Bozidar wrote:</cite><blockquote>Ikuri wrote: <blockquote><p><i>Well the current title system rewards the ones that have a good balance between killing and surviving i nthyeir play style. However with the recent changes to being locked when you are in pvp combat, the whole portion of survival which is a major aspect of infamy/fame system is now null. If they go in with the changes to not being to use any method of escape whiel you are engaged in a pvp encounter then they need to disable the infamy system until they can comeup with some better idea. </i></p><p><i>However is totally disagree with awarding titles to people who kil lthe most. Killing the most means playignmore and in most cases zerging more. A skileld pvper knwosh ow to kil land how to survive. Battles in general are based much more on survival than killing itself. The whole idea of one on one duel belongs to a galidator and arenas. Open eviorment pvp is just that, open. Survival is a major aspect of it. </i></p><p><i>IMO they should disable the title if they are removing every escape method until they can think of something better ..doesnt make much sense to have a PVP title that is based on survival in a game where PVP survival is no longer possible.</i></p></blockquote><p> Ikuri, there is the same old original escape method that there always has been.  Kill your enemy.</p><p>If there is a bug forcing you into combat, so be it.  But if you engage.. then why should you be able to escape?  That's cheap.  Always was, and glad they fixed it.</p><p>And PvP survival IS possible, you know that.  Why all doom and gloom?</p></blockquote><p>That is because there is more to combat that the simple kill, kill, kill. You can sit here and act all mighty about killing every group you encounter. However the bottom reality of is , there is more ot a battle than just killing. Its strategiclly retreating, chaising, pursuing. With the new combat changes ...its like you are stuck in one place until you kil lsomeone or get killed and if by any chance a raid roll over you in the meantime ..too bad. No escape. </p><p>The new system is rewarding to people that would rather spam and smash buttons than to try to think strategiclly, plan their kill and survival. </p><p>On top of the fact that it is plain wrong to cut down all method of escape, it makes it so that people with high title will never leave town until they have a x4. </p><p>So bottom line is, title systems need to be turned off and revamped because it is based on survival and survival in pvp is no longer possible. </p>

[silentpsycho]

All that has changed is that pvp battles have gone from ganking and then zone hopping away to immunity to actual battles where you actually have to use tactics to survive.  Of course, a lot of people have apparently become attached to zone lines and only pvp there.  Of course, the downside of this is (as many people have pointed out) that it greatly increases the ease and likelyhood of reinforcements to show up and swing the battle one way or another.  Move away from the docks/spires/platforms/etc. if you really want a chance to use tactics and movement.

[Lowell_high]

<p>I'm talking about reseting your fame and being able to shut it off then and there so you can never gain or lose it.  Give players the option to turn it on and off every 30 days as well as reseting their infamy.  It shouldn't be instantly togglable, and if you want fame and everyone turns theres off then its obvious the community doesn't want titles.  If you want to gain fame then you keep it on, if you don't want any fame then allow us to keep it off and don't give other players the benefit of gaining infamy from us if we are no title / fame off.</p>

[Lowell_high]

Besides, even IF you could toggle your title ON and OFF instantly (Im not saying you should) it would result in a lot MORE pvp, which is what everyone wants.  So regardless it would be a decent idea none the less, it will stop people from running atleast.  If its turned off you can't gain or lose it, imo.

[Bozidar]

<cite>Ikuri wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>That is because there is more to combat that the simple kill, kill, kill. You can sit here and act all mighty about killing every group you encounter. However the bottom reality of is , there is more ot a battle than just killing. Its strategiclly retreating, chaising, pursuing. With the new combat changes ...its like you are stuck in one place until you kil lsomeone or get killed and if by any chance a raid roll over you in the meantime ..too bad. No escape. </p><p>The new system is rewarding to people that would rather spam and smash buttons than to try to think strategiclly, plan their kill and survival. </p><p>On top of the fact that it is plain wrong to cut down all method of escape, it makes it so that people with high title will never leave town until they have a x4. </p><p>So bottom line is, title systems need to be turned off and revamped because it is based on survival and survival in pvp is no longer possible. </p></blockquote><p>You can't beat every group you encounter, as you say -- sometimes the best way to win is to get away.  And you can do this, if you don't engage in combat.  If you're in combat and someone comes by to tip the scales?  Too bad. Sometimes you get wiped, EVERYONE gets wiped sometimes.</p><p>How is that any different than pvp 8 months ago if evac happened to be down?  </p><p>I disagree strongly with your assessment that there is no strategy in it now, i think it's even MORE so than it was.</p><p>And again.. you have methods of escape.  You can not engage in combat and zone/evac/flee.  You can try to run away and wait for yourself to get out of combat.</p><p>They took out the "oh, i can't beat this guy so i'm going to run away and never die" part of the game.  I'm all for it.  What kind of infamy was that? Why was the infamy on for that kind of system, where if a guy didn't ever want to die there were twenty thousand ways to get out of it?  Lame! </p><p>To me, all the escapism wasn't strategy.  That stuff is easy.  The strategy is getting your opponent into a situation where they COULDn'T use the billion and 1 easy escape avenues.  Now, we just have to do that, and if they engage then we know we can finish a fight.</p><p>/claps</p><p>/cheers</p>

[Ikuri]

<cite>silentpsycho wrote:</cite><blockquote>All that has changed is that pvp battles have gone from ganking and then zone hopping away to immunity to actual battles where you actually have to use tactics to survive.  Of course, a lot of people have apparently become attached to zone lines and only pvp there.  Of course, the downside of this is (as many people have pointed out) that it greatly increases the ease and likelyhood of reinforcements to show up and swing the battle one way or another.  Move away from the docks/spires/platforms/etc. if you really want a chance to use tactics and movement.</blockquote><p> <i>no it hasn't. When I go into pvp combat now, everyone's speed drosp to 0 regardless of their CAs and spells, and no in combat speed modifiers will work. Now this would have been fine if not every class and their dog had multiple snares and roots. If EQ2 didn't have movement reduction abilities then it owuld have been fine to cancel al lthe speed buffs. Though if someone runs up to you and roots you, your heal cures it ..thats it ..you are in combat and dead. There is tactic to that ? </i></p><p><i>What is ogign to end up happening is because of the likelyhood of dying peopelwith high titles will not go out unless they have overwhelming odds, and it forces peopel like myself with a overseer title who usually pvp in groups of 4-6 to not go out unless we havea x4 to be able to counter them. Why go out and get slaightered by a x4 ? Why go to KoS zones and pvp when the other team could have their masters fly in mid fight and kill us all whilewe are under the impression that thefight is somewhat even numbers ? Why should I use my overseer title to feed the raids with infamy ? you [Removed for Content] sure i will only go out myself if i have a x4 backing me up. </i></p><p><i>With fights lasting longer, in nearly all t7 zones, someone could even revive nearby and zerg and keep u in combat til you are dead.</i></p><p><i>Bottom line is, giving pvp no escape method and having the pvp title system based on survival, you are asking for less pvp and more ganking. </i></p>

[Bozidar]

<cite>Ikuri wrote:</cite><blockquote><p><b></b> <i>no it hasn't. When I go into pvp combat now, everyone's speed drosp to 0 regardless of their CAs and spells, and no in combat speed modifiers will work. Now this would have been fine if not every class and their dog had multiple snares and roots. If EQ2 didn't have movement reduction abilities then it owuld have been fine to cancel al lthe speed buffs. Though if someone runs up to you and roots you, your heal cures it ..thats it ..you are in combat and dead. There is tactic to that ? </i></p></blockquote>Cures don't put you into combat.

[Bozidar]

<cite>Ikuri wrote:</cite><blockquote><p><i>What is ogign to end up happening is because of the likelyhood of dying peopelwith high titles will not go out unless they have overwhelming odds, and it forces peopel like myself with a overseer title who usually pvp in groups of 4-6 to not go out unless we havea x4 to be able to counter them. Why go out and get slaightered by a x4 ? Why go to KoS zones and pvp when the other team could have their masters fly in mid fight and kill us all whilewe are under the impression that thefight is somewhat even numbers ? Why should I use my overseer title to feed the raids with infamy ? you [I cannot control my vocabulary] sure i will only go out myself if i have a x4 backing me up. </i></p><p><i>With fights lasting longer, in nearly all t7 zones, someone could even revive nearby and zerg and keep u in combat til you are dead.</i></p><p><i>Bottom line is, giving pvp no escape method and having the pvp title system based on survival, you are asking for less pvp and more ganking. </i></p></blockquote><p>The whole basis of your argument is flawwed, Luxun.  If you see an X4, don't engage.  USe your evacs, and get away, and go elsewhere.  If you happened to be engaged in pvp and an X4 runs across you -- too bad.  Use more strategy about when and where you engage in pvp fights, so that x4's can't pop in on you easily.  Scout your zones, so that you know who is where, and what they're doing.  Find out from other people what's going on in other zones and what your normal raid pvpers are up to. </p>

[Ikuri]

<cite>Bozidar wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Ikuri wrote:</cite><blockquote><p> <i>no it hasn't. When I go into pvp combat now, everyone's speed drosp to 0 regardless of their CAs and spells, and no in combat speed modifiers will work. Now this would have been fine if not every class and their dog had multiple snares and roots. If EQ2 didn't have movement reduction abilities then it owuld have been fine to cancel al lthe speed buffs. Though if someone runs up to you and roots you, your heal cures it ..thats it ..you are in combat and dead. There is tactic to that ? </i></p></blockquote>Cures don't put you into combat.</blockquote> last time i checked, potions dont, but a healer cure does. Btw Bozidar don't mean to flame you, but alot of your comments are strictly based on lower tier pvp. You have no idea how t7 zones are like for pvp. Considering these new pvp changes effect t7 the most I don't think you qualify to comment on it right and left.

[Azrephail]

eh... what do any of those titles and KvD ratio's mean anyway? Frankley to me they mean nothing. Now i dont know about the Q side of things (i'm sure its the same) but i see all the time scouts and what not campin the DLW zone at the fair all twinked out farmin kills.  Of course it is there right, they pay the same amount of money as anyone else. but targeting people that you have a huge lop sided advantage over (gear, lvl ) so that you get a higher KvD ratio, status, title to me makes them seem worthless. So really, why even pay any attention to?

[Eybietie]

<cite>Demron wrote:</cite><blockquote>Aeryox@Nagafen wrote: <blockquote>Shadexxx@Nagafen wrote: <blockquote><p>all people i know only complain about fame/ infamy loss when they die. all people comlpaining about getting killed on the forums are angry because the lost fame/ infamy. that is a fact - because you can read it on the forums. you have posted your personal opinion - that is not a fact. pls give me an indication about what makes you sure people would run because of their KvD?</p></blockquote> ive had your guild kill me mainly when we werent ready or completely outnumbered but when we have our whole squad your guild evacs is that cause you cant lose champ fame? </blockquote> He doesn't want to talk about his running. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></blockquote>no - it´s ok. i don´t have a problem loosing fame at all.  but that is not the point here - if you want to flame me or my guild you should better go to that other website - there you can give all you got.

[Eybietie]

<cite>Bozidar wrote:</cite><blockquote>Ikuri, there is the same old original escape method that there always has been.  Kill your enemy. <p>If there is a bug forcing you into combat, so be it.  But if you engage.. then why should you be able to escape?  That's cheap.  Always was, and glad they fixed it.</p><p>And PvP survival IS possible, you know that.  Why all doom and gloom?</p></blockquote><p> we are talking about t7 pvp. zones in t7 have alot more ways to cliff dive and stuff. also - what pheelin mentioned - there is that cloud thing - and kos isnt really big enough to stay away from those cloud pads. you are engaged with another grp and it is a good fight . due to not beeing able zoning away while in pvp a whole army could fly in and gank you on sight f.e.</p>

[Image_Vain]

Titles rock<span style="color: #cc0000">!</span> you fail<span style="color: #cc0000">!</span> so there<span style="color: #cc0000">!</span>

[Tatate]

The only thing I think SOE would even THINK about doing is making titles based upon how many kills you have or your KvD ratio.

[Broccoliswo]

KvD doesn;t change people not fight, in fact, it makes it worse, since people won't run only from people they can lose fame to, but everyone. Basing it off kills alone allows bot farmers to get titles. /shrug

[silentpsycho]

Broccolisword@Nagafen wrote: <blockquote>KvD doesn;t change people not fight, in fact, it makes it worse, since people won't run only from people they can lose fame to, but everyone. Basing it off kills alone allows bot farmers to get titles. /shrug </blockquote><p> For the most part, I like the title system as it's implemented (buggy as it may be).  A couple of things I'd change to make it better: </p><p>1) Make it so you can gain/lose infamy from anyone.  An even con hunter kicks the living heck out of a champion should be quite the infamy/fame adjustment for both imho.  An unranked nub killing a master pvp'er should be quite an upset, don't you think?   If someone keeps a high title after this change, a /bow is well deserved when you cross his or her path.</p><p>2) I wish there was some way to make fleeing and leaving your comrades to die to protect your title contribute to it's loss, but I don't know how you would implement this.  Maybe track it seperately and have a related postfix title appended to your name; e.g. "the runner", "the coward", etc.</p><p>3) make pvp open ffa, but have the title/fame/infamy system and (more importantly) faction take into account level disparity and size of force disparity.  An x4 of level 70's picking off solo greys should result in a quick accumulation of negative fame and faction, losing titles and faction with your home city.  Perhaps at certain negative levels, you can open up a whole new series of titles e.g. "the ganker", "the bully", etc.</p>

[Ikuri]

Shadexxx@Nagafen wrote: <blockquote><cite>Bozidar wrote:</cite><blockquote>Ikuri, there is the same old original escape method that there always has been.  Kill your enemy. <p>If there is a bug forcing you into combat, so be it.  But if you engage.. then why should you be able to escape?  That's cheap.  Always was, and glad they fixed it.</p><p>And PvP survival IS possible, you know that.  Why all doom and gloom?</p></blockquote><p> we are talking about t7 pvp. zones in t7 have alot more ways to cliff dive and stuff. also - what pheelin mentioned - there is that cloud thing - and kos isnt really big enough to stay away from those cloud pads. you are engaged with another grp and it is a good fight . due to not beeing able zoning away while in pvp a whole army could fly in and gank you on sight f.e.</p></blockquote><p><i>absolutely. I mean think aboutit ...a group of 6 vs another group of 6 ...first group starts to dominate in middle of WW. the second group revives, zerg and keep you in combat, even if they are the worst pvpers they will keep you in combat long enough to eventually run you out of power and kill you. </i></p><p><i>Even if yo uare fighting o na different island, it takes such a short time to get around that  people will exploit the hell out of this system. </i></p><p><i>Also Bozi, you need to realize that one of the greatest abilities of a general i nthe army is being able to adapt with changes WHILE the fight is in progress, not before they engage. Honda a famous japanese general from 1600s is famous for the way he manage to retreat his left wing against a fight with the Takada. </i></p><p><i>Zhuge Liang and Zhao Yun from the 3kingdoms era of china for the ability to retreat a losing army so organized and perfectly. </i></p><p><i>ESCAPE while IN COMBAT is a major part of a battle and in most cases it seperates the skileld pvpers than hte button smasher zergers. </i></p><p><i>Taking out a large part of pvp battles and leaving players with no option to escape cripples the pvp system. Add the survival based title system and you get a game where no one will pvp unless they have a x4, or they will bea meat of infamy for others to take. </i> </p>

[Image_Vain]

I think once you get a Title, you shouldn't be able to lose it, but thats just my MHO

[silentpsycho]

<cite>Bozidar wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Ikuri wrote:</cite><blockquote><p><i>What is ogign to end up happening is because of the likelyhood of dying peopelwith high titles will not go out unless they have overwhelming odds, and it forces peopel like myself with a overseer title who usually pvp in groups of 4-6 to not go out unless we havea x4 to be able to counter them. Why go out and get slaightered by a x4 ? Why go to KoS zones and pvp when the other team could have their masters fly in mid fight and kill us all whilewe are under the impression that thefight is somewhat even numbers ? Why should I use my overseer title to feed the raids with infamy ? you [I cannot control my vocabulary] sure i will only go out myself if i have a x4 backing me up. </i></p><p><i>With fights lasting longer, in nearly all t7 zones, someone could even revive nearby and zerg and keep u in combat til you are dead.</i></p><p><i>Bottom line is, giving pvp no escape method and having the pvp title system based on survival, you are asking for less pvp and more ganking. </i></p></blockquote><p>The whole basis of your argument is flawwed, Luxun.  If you see an X4, don't engage.  USe your evacs, and get away, and go elsewhere.  If you happened to be engaged in pvp and an X4 runs across you -- too bad.  Use more strategy about when and where you engage in pvp fights, so that x4's can't pop in on you easily.  Scout your zones, so that you know who is where, and what they're doing.  Find out from other people what's going on in other zones and what your normal raid pvpers are up to. </p></blockquote>Gosh, these sound a *lot* like actual combat tactics.  Standing around a dock/bell/cloud platform/whatever and waiting for a green to show up, one shotting them, and then zone hopping to safety, while also a tactic, is a fairly lame one.  I, for one, am glad it's gone and it's forcing people to start having some sort of skill.

[silentpsycho]

<cite>Ikuri wrote:</cite><blockquote>Shadexxx@Nagafen wrote: <blockquote><cite>Bozidar wrote:</cite><blockquote>Ikuri, there is the same old original escape method that there always has been.  Kill your enemy. <p>If there is a bug forcing you into combat, so be it.  But if you engage.. then why should you be able to escape?  That's cheap.  Always was, and glad they fixed it.</p><p>And PvP survival IS possible, you know that.  Why all doom and gloom?</p></blockquote><p> we are talking about t7 pvp. zones in t7 have alot more ways to cliff dive and stuff. also - what pheelin mentioned - there is that cloud thing - and kos isnt really big enough to stay away from those cloud pads. you are engaged with another grp and it is a good fight . due to not beeing able zoning away while in pvp a whole army could fly in and gank you on sight f.e.</p></blockquote><p><i>absolutely. I mean think aboutit ...a group of 6 vs another group of 6 ...first group starts to dominate in middle of WW. the second group revives, zerg and keep you in combat, even if they are the worst pvpers they will keep you in combat long enough to eventually run you out of power and kill you. </i></p><p><i>Even if yo uare fighting o na different island, it takes such a short time to get around that  people will exploit the hell out of this system. </i></p><p><i>Also Bozi, you need to realize that one of the greatest abilities of a general i nthe army is being able to adapt with changes WHILE the fight is in progress, not before they engage. Honda a famous japanese general from 1600s is famous for the way he manage to retreat his left wing against a fight with the Takada. </i></p><p><i>Zhuge Liang and Zhao Yun from the 3kingdoms era of china for the ability to retreat a losing army so organized and perfectly. </i></p><p><i>ESCAPE while IN COMBAT is a major part of a battle and in most cases it seperates the skileld pvpers than hte button smasher zergers. </i></p><p><i>Taking out a large part of pvp battles and leaving players with no option to escape cripples the pvp system. Add the survival based title system and you get a game where no one will pvp unless they have a x4, or they will bea meat of infamy for others to take. </i> </p></blockquote><p>The flaw in your thinking is that the zone line is not your only means of escape and evasion.  Frankly, I wish they (and immunity for that matter) didn't exist at all.  If you think of the game a little differently, you will start to see there are other means of escape than zone hopping and that combat that doesn't involve zone line ganking is actually a lot of fun.</p><p>By the way, it is hillarious to see the old-time zone-line-gankers bounce off the zone lines now when their ganks go awry. </p>

[Radigazt]

<p>I agree with the OP, removing titles would encourage PvP.  So many people out there hang by zone lines, insta-evac, sprint away, and run in RAIDS just to PvP ... it's insane.  PvP has become really hard to find.  Remove the titles and that's a good start.  </p><p>IMHO, titles should be removed and Raids shouldn't be allowable in PvP--it takes all of the skill out of PvP'ing.  Force people to work in a group of 6 or less, or else finding something resembling a fair fight is just too hard.  Ideally, I'd like to have lots and lots of PvP ... but if that's not possible, then at least incentivize the PvP that does exist to prevent running away.  I often think that Everquest 2 is more like EverAvoid.  Unless someone has a slam-dunk easy win, they avoid combat.  More often than not it's 3 orange cons v. 1 green con engaged with a mob; or an x2 Raid v. 4 people; etc.  The tracker finds his victims and avoids any competition.  </p><p>Another thing that should be fixed would be Tracking.  They should reduce the range of Track and most importantly, only allow tracking while un-stealthed and un-invised.  It doesn't make sense that you can be both stealthy enough to avoid detection and actively following and reading the footsteps of your prey ... so force them out into the open for the Tracking part.  </p><p>Healer's healing was nerfed--and it needed to be IMHO--but now it's time to split up stealth and track ... Scouts keep both tools, but they become mutually exclusive.  That would help PvP a bit too.  </p>

[Ikuri]

<cite>silentpsycho wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Ikuri wrote:</cite><blockquote>Shadexxx@Nagafen wrote: <blockquote><cite>Bozidar wrote:</cite><blockquote>Ikuri, there is the same old original escape method that there always has been.  Kill your enemy. <p>If there is a bug forcing you into combat, so be it.  But if you engage.. then why should you be able to escape?  That's cheap.  Always was, and glad they fixed it.</p><p>And PvP survival IS possible, you know that.  Why all doom and gloom?</p></blockquote><p> we are talking about t7 pvp. zones in t7 have alot more ways to cliff dive and stuff. also - what pheelin mentioned - there is that cloud thing - and kos isnt really big enough to stay away from those cloud pads. you are engaged with another grp and it is a good fight . due to not beeing able zoning away while in pvp a whole army could fly in and gank you on sight f.e.</p></blockquote><p><i>absolutely. I mean think aboutit ...a group of 6 vs another group of 6 ...first group starts to dominate in middle of WW. the second group revives, zerg and keep you in combat, even if they are the worst pvpers they will keep you in combat long enough to eventually run you out of power and kill you. </i></p><p><i>Even if yo uare fighting o na different island, it takes such a short time to get around that  people will exploit the hell out of this system. </i></p><p><i>Also Bozi, you need to realize that one of the greatest abilities of a general i nthe army is being able to adapt with changes WHILE the fight is in progress, not before they engage. Honda a famous japanese general from 1600s is famous for the way he manage to retreat his left wing against a fight with the Takada. </i></p><p><i>Zhuge Liang and Zhao Yun from the 3kingdoms era of china for the ability to retreat a losing army so organized and perfectly. </i></p><p><i>ESCAPE while IN COMBAT is a major part of a battle and in most cases it seperates the skileld pvpers than hte button smasher zergers. </i></p><p><i>Taking out a large part of pvp battles and leaving players with no option to escape cripples the pvp system. Add the survival based title system and you get a game where no one will pvp unless they have a x4, or they will bea meat of infamy for others to take. </i> </p></blockquote><p>The flaw in your thinking is that the zone line is not your only means of escape and evasion.  Frankly, I wish they (and immunity for that matter) didn't exist at all.  If you think of the game a little differently, you will start to see there are other means of escape than zone hopping and that combat that doesn't involve zone line ganking is actually a lot of fun.</p><p>By the way, it is hillarious to see the old-time zone-line-gankers bounce off the zone lines now when their ganks go awry. </p></blockquote><p>To be honest with you, zonning wasn't a big deal at all, evac in combat was. I mean when you zonned, you would load o nthe other side with no immunity, your health as it was before you loaded and 8/10 tiems you would have gotten killed on the other side. </p><p>To be honest with you, when there WAS zoneline pvping ..it was lame, but even o na small server like vox you could find pvp on Ts docks 24/7. I would get alot more kills per hour back then then I do now. Because people had a meeting place. </p><p>Now when they said they were going to make it so that you couldn't zone in combat thats fine, wasn't a big deal . Though now they are nerfing in combat speed runs as well. What happened to chaining roots ? what happened to team work ? what happened ot thinking and planning how to fight a battle ? Does everyoneand everything have o be so straight forward ? There is no escape from a pvp combat anymore, and you can sit here and argue as much as you like, but EVERY pvp system needs a escape rout one way or another. </p><p>Evac while in combat was too extreme, but this nonesnese of committing the crime of century if you engage in a pvp encounter is [Removed for Content]. </p>

[Bozidar]

<cite>Ikuri wrote:</cite><blockquote> last time i checked, potions dont, but a healer cure does. Btw Bozidar don't mean to flame you, but alot of your comments are strictly based on lower tier pvp. You have no idea how t7 zones are like for pvp. Considering these new pvp changes effect t7 the most I don't think you qualify to comment on it right and left. </blockquote><p> Cures don't put you into combat.  Period.</p><p>And while i haven't done a lot of pvp in T7, it doesn't take a genius to figure out that zones like the overrealm are frigging [Removed for Content] for pvp and should be avoided.  Sinking sands is nice, much less enviornmental aggro, open zones for pvp.  Kinda like the T3/T4 folks who go to ant/cl.  Clefts, Pillars... you rarely see anyone there... but sinking sands has action.  And the new EoF zones added are a lot less cloud/zone carebear cliff diving zones.. go pvp there.</p><p>Don't gripe about things for T7 and don't SAY that that's what you're griping about. Fine.. disable the fame system when you reach T7.. i'm fine with that <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>In the rest of the levels of the game it'll be just fine.</p>

[Bozidar]

<cite>Ikuri wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Evac while in combat was too extreme, but this nonesnese of committing the crime of century if you engage in a pvp encounter is [I cannot control my vocabulary]. </p></blockquote><p> To be perfectly honest I think you're making it out to be a little worse than it is.  It's not like you guys have to worry about anyone on vox ganking you, anyway. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  Who's going to jump in, the crickets??</p>

[Ikuri]

I wish t7 players actually pvped in sinking sands. That is a perfect zone for pvp if peopel would step away from the carpet. Though problem with other t7 zones like EoF zones is that there are crap load of triple up aggro around, so unless you are a scout or class with invis/stealth you can't survive much. Besides most classes have too many aoes to be able to compete in zones liek that ..and because of the likelyhood of getting kileld in 2 seconds if u aggro a few mobs on you, no one ever roams around those zones for pvp. All in all, you can sit here and keep saying its fine to not have any escape route for pvp. I ask you something, have you ever played a pvp game before eq2 ? I doubt you have, are you slightly familiar with combat and battles in general from any other non-eq related sources ? I doubt you do. You like to assume and comment on thigns you don't know about or haven't experianced, anbd liek to act tough and almighty on the boards. I can say that much about yo ufro myour comments on the boards and your constent commenting on t7 issues when you haven't experianced it yourself. I have a overseer and a master toon. I know i will not take my overseer or master out if they go thru with the changes unless i have a x4 under my command. Because do oyu know what will happen ? I go out in a group of 5, few peopel attack us and its going well we are fighting, but they have their raid hidding on another island or somewhere far enogh not to show up on track but clsoe enough to come roll you over. So even if i do recocnize it, even if i have eyes behind my head and can see them comming, there is no getting out of it. Something like this could happen and abused and exploited. Why should I make myself a fame target for peopel that roll in x4 ? I being frankly honest, I worked my butt off for over 1.5 year to get those titles, i aint going to lose it for free.

[Pletia]

Removing title will not change anything, I was General in Freeport. Now I'm exiled, so.. I lost my title, but the same noob Dreadnaught and Champion keep running from me since they know they will die, so.... remove title or not, ppl will still run, zone, suicide, evac.

[rvbarton]

Ohnoez@Nagafen wrote: <blockquote>Shadexxx@Nagafen wrote: <blockquote>Ohnoez@Nagafen wrote: <blockquote>W/e your opinions, it still wont happen.  Titles or no titles, ppl will still run/cliff dive.</blockquote>people said that about lvl locking too and now it´s getting *looked at* </blockquote><p>Has nothin to do with titles dude, lvl lockin was an issue towards noobs and professional players.</p><p>Just cause some get upset about losing fame goes to show they are for titles, if they arnt for titles, they woulnt give a crap if they lost/won fame now would they?</p><p>Just goes back to what I said, ppl will always run.  By your terms, they will be runnin because they didnt "grant" u the kill.  No titles there, and ppl are still runnin, dont seem like titles will fix anythin.  Some will run because they want there uber 300:1 KvD ratio, others didnt "grant" u the kill <img src="/smilies/2786c5c8e1a8be796fb2f726cca5a0fe.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> and some will just run for the hell of it.  </p><p>Titles will not solve the problem with ppl runnin away. </p></blockquote>I've read player's posts such as this repeatedly on these forums where they demean one person for speaking their opinion, belittle that opinion, and then interject their own, as if it were "the law".  Please allow others to openly express their opinions as they want.  You do this.

[Broccoliswo]

I do agree that making it so you can't lose a title once you get it would encourage PvP, as in you can get to the bare minimum required to keep a title but not go below if you die at that point. Also, making it so you could lose fame to everyone would be an awful idea for encouraging PvP. Everyone would just zerg and run from everyone if that happened.

[Ikuri]

Broccolisword@Nagafen wrote: <blockquote>I do agree that making it so you can't lose a title once you get it would encourage PvP, as in you can get to the bare minimum required to keep a title but not go below if you die at that point. Also, making it so you could lose fame to everyone would be an awful idea for encouraging PvP. Everyone would just zerg and run from everyone if that happened. </blockquote> If they decide to make it so that you wouldn't lose a title, then it would be a wise idea to just grandfather the current titles and start a brand new title system with new names and such. Because our current system is based on survival, however the pvp changes have taken every means of survival out of the game. So yes the title system does need to be looekd at.

[Broccoliswo]

I'm relatively far into Master atm and I wouldn't care if they reset my title and made a system that actually matches the new ruleset for fame.

[Ikuri]

Broccolisword@Nagafen wrote: <blockquote>I'm relatively far into Master atm and I wouldn't care if they reset my title and made a system that actually matches the new ruleset for fame. </blockquote> yeh but I personally wouldn't like having a year woth of work thrown out the window.

[Bozidar]

<cite>Ikuri wrote:</cite><blockquote>I wish t7 players actually pvped in sinking sands. That is a perfect zone for pvp if peopel would step away from the carpet. </blockquote><p>I agree.  I think if an overseer or two were reported there, they might come out.</p><p>Ikuri wrote: </p><blockquote>Though problem with other t7 zones like EoF zones is that there are crap load of triple up aggro around, so unless you are a scout or class with invis/stealth you can't survive much. Besides most classes have too many aoes to be able to compete in zones liek that ..and because of the likelyhood of getting kileld in 2 seconds if u aggro a few mobs on you, no one ever roams around those zones for pvp.</blockquote><p>There are save parts of those zones where you can pvp in, w/o mobs.  The only problem is that they're near rez points.. which sucks.</p><p>Ikuri wrote: </p><blockquote>All in all, you can sit here and keep saying its fine to not have any escape route for pvp. I ask you something, have you ever played a pvp game before eq2 ? I doubt you have, are you slightly familiar with combat and battles in general from any other non-eq related sources ? I doubt you do. You like to assume and comment on thigns you don't know about or haven't experianced, anbd liek to act tough and almighty on the boards. I can say that much about yo ufro myour comments on the boards and your constent commenting on t7 issues when you haven't experianced it yourself.</blockquote><p>I have played pvp games before EQ2, but you're diverting the discussion now.  This isn't about me, it isn't about other games, it's about THIS game.  I pvp in this game, a lot.  I don't assume, i know, i play.  It's not about being tough or almighty, and that's frigging hysterical coming from you, btw.  But <i><b><u>this isn't a T7 issue!!!</u></b> </i>You're asking for the fame system to be removed because it doesn't work for you.  Sorry, you leveled up to the point where pvp sucks due to a great number of problems <b><i><u>including</u></i></b> zone issues-- that's your problem, not mine, nor the problem of everyone else who pvps pre-endgame.  Spare me the speach about what I have or haven't experienced.  I've heard it before.</p><p>Ikuri wrote: </p><blockquote>I have a overseer and a master toon. I know i will not take my overseer or master out if they go thru with the changes unless i have a x4 under my command. Because do oyu know what will happen ? I go out in a group of 5, few peopel attack us and its going well we are fighting, but they have their raid hidding on another island or somewhere far enogh not to show up on track but clsoe enough to come roll you over. So even if i do recocnize it, even if i have eyes behind my head and can see them comming, there is no getting out of it. Something like this could happen and abused and exploited. Why should I make myself a fame target for peopel that roll in x4 ? I being frankly honest, I worked my butt off for over 1.5 year to get those titles, i aint going to lose it for free. </blockquote><p>I'll say it again, don't pvp in those zones, or make [Removed for Content] sure that you know who is where.  It really shouldn't be that hard to keep track of all 10 people left playing T7 on vox.</p><p>Those zones are GARBAGE to pvp in.  You know it.  This has been the case since KoS came out and everyone grinded up there in the first week of pvp.  Cloud hopping cliff diving pvp is <b>garbage.</b>  Why you can whine and complain that it's getting worse is beyond me.</p><p>Go to the sinking sands.  Gank a few people out there farming stones, names, and some green/greys still questing there.  Attract some attention and pvp in a zone that's actually good for you to pvp in.</p><p>A strategic retreat in pvp is NOT the same thing as the escapism that evac and PotC used to offer.  Those are cop outs.  There's nothing "strategic" about 100% run speed, or an insta-getaway.  You just pop it, and you get away.  Yeah, zoning was bad *rolls eyes*.  You show up on the other end with almost no health, a dot kills you, and your opponent gets no credit for you.  THAT was dangerous, eh?</p><p>These changes are good for <i>overall</i> pvp, and I think most players welcome them.</p>

[shalom]

Pletia@Venekor wrote: <blockquote>Removing title will not change anything, I was General in Freeport. Now I'm exiled, so.. I lost my title, but the same noob Dreadnaught and Champion keep running from me since they know they will die, so.... remove title or not, ppl will still run, zone, suicide, evac.</blockquote><p> So you would stand and fight 4v1? 6v1? No, you'd run. Of course you would. So they've figured out you can beat them and dont want to keep getting beaten. Instead of bishin about the easys that run, go find someone who thinks they can beat you.</p><p>This is the perfect example.</p><p>I want those I can kill easily not to be able to run.</p><p>I want those I can't kill easily to be nerfed.</p><p>Pathetic.</p>

[seigwahrheit]

Pheelin@Nagafen wrote: <blockquote><p>the whole engaging a person in a fair 1 v 1 then having his friends flyin to save him and take my infamy is pretty lame. For exampled i was fighting baws on desolation right? i engage he engages cool a nice 1 v 1, tbh im owning him im at like 90% or something and he is almost dead then wait... <b>adelphi a healer another brig fly in, baws gets heals and i get stun locked and killed and no chance of getting away because im engaged.</b>. its not like its happened once, we were fighting a 6 v 6 with overlords niizhoni and some others and we were winning even with their healer that revived and ran back. then all the sudden what? x2 of fp show up and run straight for us? coincidence?... anyways its just kinda lame and there is no way to make everyone happy </p><p> BUT to the op they shouldnt take out fame they should award it differently. Make it MUCH MUCH MUCH harder to get, but allow you to earn fame off of everyone, for no titles you get say like 1pt. from slayers 5pts destroyers 10pts and masters like 200 pts. but make it take like 1000 for hunter 2000 for slayer 5000 for destroyer etc. not exactly those numbers but you get my idea also you lose a certain # determined by who helps and if its 6 on 1 and you kill say a master for 200.. the master only loses like half if he is solo, and the group only gains 1/6th of it or something...</p><p>a infamy bar would be cool but i heard that this would never happen so oh well.</p><p>Also about fame, i never get upset about me losing fame or my title or w/e i just hate giving it to people especially people that dont deserve it. I could care less about my title (its why i engage 2 people at a time fight against my odds sometimes) but i hate newbs that gank fame from people 6 v 1 and have a high title and think they are uber or something is all.</p></blockquote> Pheelin get over it already.. You won a hard pvp encounter (kindof) ages ago. I dont bring up at every available opportunity how i repeat own you and how you run scared from me unless your grp'd. Just give it up im not wearing T6 legendary anymore you just bounce off me and u know it. Seriously its OLD i think your a decent ranger but it is really annoying me every post i see you on the forums includes something that happened 6 month ago.

[shalom]

<p> I had an interesting thing happen not long ago...and then again a few days ago.</p><p>I'm 63 and leveling pretty much solo...so I'm getting good at buffing post death.</p><p>In KOS, I was 61 q, he 70 fp .... we stood atop TT and he watched me kill trash mobs. Never killed me, didn't even help when a different 70 came and killed me.  Then, when a group of 70q's came and chased him off.  I was sure he'd come back to wipe the floor with me, assuming I'd called in a group.  He came back.  Again watching me work off debt.</p><p>Then not a few days ago in SS...I was on ledge...he came over the hill...saw me (and my title), saw I didn't have much to offer him and moved on.</p><p>All this is to say....some of us clearly are interested in making the game better and some of us are interested in making our gaming easier.  If Adelphi has a thought, he has my attention.  He's proved, to me at least, he's more interested in making things better, not just easier.</p>

[Bozidar]

<cite>shalom wrote:</cite><blockquote><p> I had an interesting thing happen not long ago...and then again a few days ago.</p><p>I'm 63 and leveling pretty much solo...so I'm getting good at buffing post death.</p><p>In KOS, I was 61 q, he 70 fp .... we stood atop TT and he watched me kill trash mobs. Never killed me, didn't even help when a different 70 came and killed me.  Then, when a group of 70q's came and chased him off.  I was sure he'd come back to wipe the floor with me, assuming I'd called in a group.  He came back.  Again watching me work off debt.</p><p>Then not a few days ago in SS...I was on ledge...he came over the hill...saw me (and my title), saw I didn't have much to offer him and moved on.</p><p>All this is to say....some of us clearly are interested in making the game better and some of us are interested in making our gaming easier.  If Adelphi has a thought, he has my attention.  He's proved, to me at least, he's more interested in making things better, not just easier.</p></blockquote><p>at 61 you don't give him a token or loot, just faction.  most good pvpers are maxed in faction at 70, and their K-D doesn't need padding <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>Then again.. a good number of them will try to kill people anyway, just because they can.  So that was some nice mercy you were shown <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> </p>

[shalom]

<cite>Bozidar wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>shalom wrote:</cite><blockquote><p> I had an interesting thing happen not long ago...and then again a few days ago.</p><p>I'm 63 and leveling pretty much solo...so I'm getting good at buffing post death.</p><p>In KOS, I was 61 q, he 70 fp .... we stood atop TT and he watched me kill trash mobs. Never killed me, didn't even help when a different 70 came and killed me.  Then, when a group of 70q's came and chased him off.  I was sure he'd come back to wipe the floor with me, assuming I'd called in a group.  He came back.  Again watching me work off debt.</p><p>Then not a few days ago in SS...I was on ledge...he came over the hill...saw me (and my title), saw I didn't have much to offer him and moved on.</p><p>All this is to say....some of us clearly are interested in making the game better and some of us are interested in making our gaming easier.  If Adelphi has a thought, he has my attention.  He's proved, to me at least, he's more interested in making things better, not just easier.</p></blockquote><p>at 61 you don't give him a token or loot, just faction.  most good pvpers are maxed in faction at 70, and their K-D doesn't need padding <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>Then again.. a good number of them will try to kill people anyway, just because they can.  So that was some nice mercy you were shown <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> </p></blockquote><p>True.  The second time I would have however, although he prolly didn't need the token either.</p>

[Rastaah]

<p>I like the idea of making titles permanent once you earn them.  But along with that, make it so that if you engage a pvp opponent first, then end up running, have some way to make that person lose title if he does it enough times.</p><p>I wish there was a way to penalize people who start pvp fights then run once they are losing.    With twinks with 48% horses and such, even with my nice spiffy 40% horse and whatnot, I can't catch a twink if he attacks me then starts to lose.     Even with roots (and thats about to get worse with the patch).</p><p>People, if you start a fight, finish it, win or lose. Fight the good fight.  Stop being cowards.</p>

[Squishy]

<p>I totally agree with this post.   I absolutely hate titles.  </p><p> I am a lvl 40 Champion Guardian on Naggy.   I am currently searching out freeporters to kill me to lose this title.   If i had the option i would instantly remove and disable fame.   </p><p>Getting champion was the worst thing that ever happened to me.  It made me alot more flighty and I run and zone hope alot more.   I decided however that i'm sacking my title....so Fps feel free to farm me back to hunter/no title, where i want to be.    </p><p>I like being able to one v one people without the constant fear that some orange con dread is stalking me afraid to fight until i engage another person.  It's pvp, yes, i like getting ganked and such.  I don't like the fact that people run from you ALOT more if they can loose fame.   I've seen players stand there ground and fight it out and do amazing things when out numbered.  This pratically never happens if a fame hit is up for grabs.   </p><p>I have also seen General's in EL just sit and laugh while they are killed by a group, because there was no dreads or higher around.  </p><p>What would be so wrong with giving players the ability to opt out of this system?  /disablefame   and you lose all fame, titles, and what not and can't gain fame.   I wouldn't even care if you still gave fame to hunters/no titles. </p>

[MalkorGodchyld]

<p>    Almost... i've always been against titles personally but i cant deny that for alot of ppl it encourages pvp.  </p><p> The title system just needs to be looked at more closely.    Atm there's no meaning behind it...no "instant respect" factor...and imo thats what it should be.          Why not make it to where fame is only generated if your solo??      Make it to where the only way you can gain a title or lose fame...is solo.    If you get jumped by another person mid fight... no fame loss, but they both still get faction.     Also...alter pvp rewards to reflect that.   Generate a few more rewards that require a title as well as faction.      Obviously scouts will have an advantage with this system because of track...  track on pvp has always been overpowered & NEVER looked at.     So....MAKE TRACK TOTEMS.    There's practically a totem/potion for every other class specific ability in game anyway ~nuff said...     This way when u see somebody walkin around with a Master title...you KNOW they've earned it.      </p><p>As far as this method detracting from group play?     Make faction harder to generate....introduce a +/- system as far as group make up is concerned.     That should determine how much faction you get from a kill.     Or whether u get faction at all.   An even fight ( + or - say...2)  should give a significant difference in faction rewards.    A x4 slaughering a solo player is hardly worth a reward imo.    And to add...make it to where tokens follow that same formula.         And you'll need both faction & a title for certain pvp rewards.      </p><p>        </p><p>  Marius Darkchyld ~    Retired 70 Defiler   </p><p>  Llfe or Death ~  35 Warden</p><p>  Brainwashed ~ 26 Illusionist                    ~    NAGAFEN   ~</p>

[Ikuri]

<cite>Bozidar wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Ikuri wrote:</cite><blockquote>I wish t7 players actually pvped in sinking sands. That is a perfect zone for pvp if peopel would step away from the carpet. </blockquote><p>I agree.  I think if an overseer or two were reported there, they might come out.</p><p>Ikuri wrote: </p><blockquote>Though problem with other t7 zones like EoF zones is that there are crap load of triple up aggro around, so unless you are a scout or class with invis/stealth you can't survive much. Besides most classes have too many aoes to be able to compete in zones liek that ..and because of the likelyhood of getting kileld in 2 seconds if u aggro a few mobs on you, no one ever roams around those zones for pvp.</blockquote><p>There are save parts of those zones where you can pvp in, w/o mobs.  The only problem is that they're near rez points.. which sucks.</p><p>Ikuri wrote: </p><blockquote>All in all, you can sit here and keep saying its fine to not have any escape route for pvp. I ask you something, have you ever played a pvp game before eq2 ? I doubt you have, are you slightly familiar with combat and battles in general from any other non-eq related sources ? I doubt you do. You like to assume and comment on thigns you don't know about or haven't experianced, anbd liek to act tough and almighty on the boards. I can say that much about yo ufro myour comments on the boards and your constent commenting on t7 issues when you haven't experianced it yourself.</blockquote><p>I have played pvp games before EQ2, but you're diverting the discussion now.  This isn't about me, it isn't about other games, it's about THIS game.  I pvp in this game, a lot.  I don't assume, i know, i play.  It's not about being tough or almighty, and that's frigging hysterical coming from you, btw.  But <i><b><u>this isn't a T7 issue!!!</u></b> </i>You're asking for the fame system to be removed because it doesn't work for you.  Sorry, you leveled up to the point where pvp sucks due to a great number of problems <b><i><u>including</u></i></b> zone issues-- that's your problem, not mine, nor the problem of everyone else who pvps pre-endgame.  Spare me the speach about what I have or haven't experienced.  I've heard it before.</p><p>Ikuri wrote: </p><blockquote>I have a overseer and a master toon. I know i will not take my overseer or master out if they go thru with the changes unless i have a x4 under my command. Because do oyu know what will happen ? I go out in a group of 5, few peopel attack us and its going well we are fighting, but they have their raid hidding on another island or somewhere far enogh not to show up on track but clsoe enough to come roll you over. So even if i do recocnize it, even if i have eyes behind my head and can see them comming, there is no getting out of it. Something like this could happen and abused and exploited. Why should I make myself a fame target for peopel that roll in x4 ? I being frankly honest, I worked my butt off for over 1.5 year to get those titles, i aint going to lose it for free. </blockquote><p>I'll say it again, don't pvp in those zones, or make [I cannot control my vocabulary] sure that you know who is where.  It really shouldn't be that hard to keep track of all 10 people left playing T7 on vox.</p><p>Those zones are GARBAGE to pvp in.  You know it.  This has been the case since KoS came out and everyone grinded up there in the first week of pvp.  Cloud hopping cliff diving pvp is <b>garbage.</b>  Why you can whine and complain that it's getting worse is beyond me.</p><p>Go to the sinking sands.  Gank a few people out there farming stones, names, and some green/greys still questing there.  Attract some attention and pvp in a zone that's actually good for you to pvp in.</p><p>A strategic retreat in pvp is NOT the same thing as the escapism that evac and PotC used to offer.  Those are cop outs.  There's nothing "strategic" about 100% run speed, or an insta-getaway.  You just pop it, and you get away.  Yeah, zoning was bad *rolls eyes*.  You show up on the other end with almost no health, a dot kills you, and your opponent gets no credit for you.  THAT was dangerous, eh?</p><p>These changes are good for <i>overall</i> pvp, and I think most players welcome them.</p></blockquote> Well here is the thing Bozi, I'm not whinnign because the new changes don't match my playstyle. I stating that our current title system is based off pvp survival and our pvp no longer HAS a means of escape or survive (other than the kill kill kill ..what if a raid of 24 roll over u suddenly in a 2 v3 fight ?) Yes PotC may not be your version of escape, because it a speed buff, but i na game where nearly every class has multiple roots, multiple snares, and your mount speed drops to 0 when you are in combat .....you NEED the temp speed buffs to have any chance of escape. I mean seriously if things go wrong in a pvp fight, or if a raid rolsl over you while u were fighting a somewhat even fight ? you CANT get away, if 20 out of the 24 peopel have snares + roots, and then they can intially run faster on their mount and catch to you first before they speed is dropped. It makes no sense, our combat system REQUIRES temp in combat speed buffs, to get away. Now even if you somehow magiclly manage to escape and run towards a zone line ..you can't even zone out ....you WILL die, they WILL eventually catch up with you and kill you. So what is my conclusion ? I'm not whinning, I simpyl wont take my overseer or master out. I'll play another toon. I'm not goign to be free fame for peopel that always roll in a x4. Before i had means of escaping them now I don't, so on a server i know im out numbered and i know im the only active overseer i aint going out. Because everyone and their dog will be after me, with no means of escape i wont go into a battle that i have nothing to gain and everything lose in against big odds stacked up against me. THAT is what I'm getting at, other masters and overseers that don't roll in x4s will start to feel the same way and oyu will see less active non-ganking pvp than you see. Also when I have actiuvely running oda i had spies in every major guild, I knew exactly how many each guild had on, where they were, what they were doing ect. However what do you on largr servers ? and peope lthat give me fame don't come out to pvp in small grouos, so all my spies report to me nwo is "they got a x4 or a x3 in this place" ....Simply im not oging to be free fame for people to get off me, if we are goign to cut down all means of escape. That most liekly wouldn't be just me, it would be any master+ title that doesn't roll in raids for pvp.

[Fonrian]

Shadexxx@Nagafen wrote: <blockquote>ok - remove titles and remove death count. i don´t see the point in kvd. where is the problem with optional titles? or make it like first title for 1k kills next title 5k etc etc. and make the real high titles like 100k kills or something. now that zoning while engaged is not possible anymore i think it would really make more people to test their skills instead of waiting for the perfect group setup before engaging.</blockquote> Maybe they should remove PvP.  Then nobody would run from eachother.

[Broccoliswo]

<cite>MalkorGodchyld wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>    Almost... i've always been against titles personally but i cant deny that for alot of ppl it encourages pvp.  </p><p> The title system just needs to be looked at more closely.    Atm there's no meaning behind it...no "instant respect" factor...and imo thats what it should be.          Why not make it to where fame is only generated if your solo??      Make it to where the only way you can gain a title or lose fame...is solo.    If you get jumped by another person mid fight... no fame loss, but they both still get faction.     Also...alter pvp rewards to reflect that.   Generate a few more rewards that require a title as well as faction.      Obviously scouts will have an advantage with this system because of track...  track on pvp has always been overpowered & NEVER looked at.     <b>So....MAKE TRACK TOTEMS</b>.    There's practically a totem/potion for every other class specific ability in game anyway ~nuff said...     This way when u see somebody walkin around with a Master title...you KNOW they've earned it.      </p> </blockquote>With this and the DPS reductions, scouts would be pointless. Bad idea <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[MalkorGodchyld]

<p>   Actually nah...its not a bad idea.     It'll just take somebody with a little foresight to implement correctly.      Nobody said the totems had to be identical to track...heck dude just make em' have a limit as far as range & lvl range... maybe NPC's cant be tracked as well??       Point is...somethin can be done.    Half the reason why stuff never gets improved is because everybody is always crappin in their pants over nothin.         It wont make scouts obsolete just like heal potions dont make healers obsolete.   And hell  i'd rather have a swash/fury/illy  group invis over an invis totem any day dude.         Make it to where u cant have a see invis/stealth totem active while a track totem is active...  that way pvp scouts world wide wont have their panties in a bunch.    They'll continue to be the only class that can track invis/stealth.                                  </p><p>  Marius Darkchyld ~ Retired 70 Defiler</p><p>  Llfe or Death ~ 35 Warden</p><p>  Brainwashed ~ 26 Illusionist                                NAGAFEN</p>

[seigwahrheit]

You could just use 3rd party tracking programs like every solo clothy does

[ladyvengeance]

Well, I'm a Champ as well. I got it when I was a 16 wizzie and now I'm 20 and still have it. I've found that Hunter - Champion is really  not hard to get, mostly because there are a lot of noob slayers out there. Personally I think fame should be based on how many people you kill, not who you kill.

[Eluzay]

I agree, remove titles (only read the first post, could care less about the rest)

[Xunen]

MalkorGodchyld wrote: <blockquote><p> The title system just needs to be looked at more closely.    Atm there's no meaning behind it...no "instant respect" factor...and imo thats what it should be.          Why not make it to where fame is only generated if your solo??      Make it to where the only way you can gain a title or lose fame...is solo.    If you get jumped by another person mid fight... no fame loss, but they both still get faction.     Also...alter pvp rewards to reflect that.  </p></blockquote> You do realize that this is a Massive Multiplayer Online Game where you are forced to group and stuff? This won't ever happen mate. If you can't find a group or are too lazy to search for one, cancel your account and go play tetris, amazing solo action there.

[CresentBlade]

<cite>Xunen wrote:</cite><blockquote>MalkorGodchyld wrote: <blockquote><p> The title system just needs to be looked at more closely.    Atm there's no meaning behind it...no "instant respect" factor...and imo thats what it should be.          Why not make it to where fame is only generated if your solo??      Make it to where the only way you can gain a title or lose fame...is solo.    If you get jumped by another person mid fight... no fame loss, but they both still get faction.     Also...alter pvp rewards to reflect that.  </p></blockquote> You do realize that this is a Massive Multiplayer Online Game where you are forced to group and stuff? This won't ever happen mate. If you can't find a group or are too lazy to search for one, cancel your account and go play tetris, amazing solo action there.</blockquote><p>BAH LIES!!! </p><p>I need a group to win at tetris<img src="/smilies/385970365b8ed7503b4294502a458efa.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>When you get older those hand eye reflexes dont works so well<img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> </p>