Saved Raid Zones

[Langaan]

<DIV>PLEASE keep this thread on topic and clean so it doesn't get locked.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I'd like to discuss more ideas about the saved raid zone topic with ideas that will address the hardcore raiders issues.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Best idea I have at this point is this:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>1 - lock-out timers stay as they are.</DIV> <DIV>2 - at the END of the lock-out timer, the guild has the option to start a new zone, OR continue the previous saved instance.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>- this gives casual guilds the ability to progress through content without being limited by time, and at the same time it won't result in hardcore raid guilds being able to start a zone, then camp and pull the boss for 8 hours straight the next day.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>as far as I can tell, this addresses the hardcore raiders problem with content being made "easier" or "dumbed down".</DIV>

[Leawyn]

It was closed by a dev who said they are looking into the possibility. What more do you want?

[Langaan]

<DIV>They are still going to need input on the idea if/when they do it.  Im just trying to get a community idea as to what would work best for everyone.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Please stay on topic.</DIV>

[Leawyn]

<DIV>I was on topic. I think its a lame idea and will alow people access to mobs that they couldn't get to otherwise. But I realize this game is built around the soft-core not hard-core, so what little progression that is out there is going to be sucked away as any guild with enough time will be able to kill the same thing as all the other guilds.</DIV>

[kellan123]

I think that you will have a lot of high-end/hard core guilds seeking other avenues of entertainment (other games) when they see family-style guilds running around in the same gear.I am all for the casual style of play, in fact I like to solo when not raiding so I can get other things done in my life. I don't know, I guess I'm undecided. There's postives and negatives. I actually miss my first raids in EQ1 that were like a weekend long in the Plane of Fear and consisted of 35 different wipes. It made the game more challenging.Does anyone else think this will trivialize the game? It reminds of that Real Time Save function on games where in an emulator, you can save/load the state at ANY time by pressing a key, whereas in the real game, you had to make it to some save point.As of now, I don't care about death penalties. I'd hate to think that someday in the future, I wouldn't care about raid accomplishments where you felt good when you "stuck it out another hour to finish the zone."Maybe not a total save on the raid zone, is in order. Trash would respawn, or something.I liken it to removing timers on the quests that have them. Not being able to pause an MMORPG made me feel like it's a world going on with or without me. Wouldn't it just seem like an XBOX 360 game where you and 10 buddies called each other, jumped online and played a mission, then logged off?<div></div>

[Langaan]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Leawyn wrote:<BR> <DIV>I was on topic. I think its a lame idea and will alow people access to mobs that they couldn't get to otherwise. But I realize this game is built around the soft-core not hard-core, so what little progression that is out there is going to be sucked away as any guild with enough time will be able to kill the same thing as all the other guilds.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>So Leawyn, if the above idea was in place, would you still think it would ruin the game for you?</P> <P> </P> <P>Im getting confused, which is the real issue...</P> <P>- hardcore raiders will be able to clear zones much faster</P> <P>- softcore guilds will eventually be able to clear the same zones as hardcore guilds</P> <P>- softcore players will end up running around in the same gear as hardcore raiders</P> <P>or is it all of the above?</P> <P> </P> <P>my sincere thought on this is that casual guilds would be able to advance further, and hardcore guilds would not be effected much.  The only thing that would change is that more casual raid guilds will get into the higher end raid zones a bit quicker.</P> <P>I dont necassarily think there would be a bunch of new guilds out there clearing deathtoll any time soon, but eventually  yes.</P> <P> </P> <P> </P>

[Leawyn]

<P>If there is no clear definition of what a hard-core guild vs a soft-core guild can complete, then there is no progression. If everyone was allowed to "save" their progression, hard-core guilds would have zones figured out before the first week, because they'd have day after day after day to just pound away at it, and, at least for my guild, that means 5-6 hours a night, until its done. If we could have Freethinkers open every night, I can promise you we would do it every night until we had the final mob killed. Now my guild is not cutting-edge by any means, but by negating lockouts by having zones "save" it would mean that we would finish zones only days after the top guild instead of weeks after. The clear break between the best, and the rest, would be blurred to oblivion, because the best would be killing the same thing as even the most casual of guilds.</P> <P>Honestly there is nothing stopping you now from "saving" your instance, if you're willing to stay logged in until the next day (provided no server reset). I have no problem with more casual raiding, I used to do it myself. But if you CHOOSE to casually raid, you are CHOOSING to not be a hard-core, cutting edge type of guild. What I mean is, by only raiding a couple days a week, a few hours at that, there simply are things you will not see until they are trivial due to any number of reasons, like a new expansion or a level cap increase. By CHOOSING to be casual, you also CHOOSE to not see everything first, or even at all. I understand you want to see the end game too, but there HAS to be something to work towards, cuz if everyone can hang at the top, then it is no longer a goal, just a step.</P> <P>(this is ONLY talking of instances, as I know the top end guilds have contested which to fight over, but that is a whole other situation, without even the possiblity of "saving" their progress)</P><p>Message Edited by Leawyn on <span class=date_text>12-07-2006</span> <span class=time_text>02:28 PM</span>

[mikemcmodmi]

Saving the zone will only hurt you in the end.  You can either kill a mob or you can't.  If you can kill a mob you should be rekilling it over and over to gear up for harder stuff.  If you can't kill a mob saving the zone so you get more chances won't help you.  Thinking it would is just dilluding yourself and using it as an excuse when the real reason is you aren't coordinated, geared or skilled enough yet to take the mob down yet.

[Fatkiddown]

<div><blockquote><hr>mikemcmodmike wrote:<div></div>Saving the zone will only hurt you in the end.  You can either kill a mob or you can't.  If you can kill a mob you should be rekilling it over and over to gear up for harder stuff.  If you can't kill a mob saving the zone so you get more chances won't help you.  Thinking it would is just dilluding yourself and using it as an excuse when the real reason is you aren't coordinated, geared or skilled enough yet to take the mob down yet.<hr></blockquote>Now that is completely wrong in every way.  Ok I don't know where you are from but lets say you need to climb Mt Washtington in New Hampshire right?  Now would you rather start at Pinkam Notch ranger station and hike 4miles and gain 4,000ft or would it matter if you started in Boston hundreds of miles away and keep right on hiking Mt. Washington after having already hiked 100miles?  Yea the hardcore crowd could say heck yea we cleared it in one day and the rest of you had to use saves and point your fingers and laugh at us noobs but we really don't care.   I think the OP is just trying to hash out ideas for how to make this work and please as many as possible (hardcore and casual).  It sounds like SOE is considering saves in the future so why not try to figure out the best balance for everyone.Point being, raid saves would be like a stopover at the ranger station before continuing on up the mountain the next day.   And yes pulling a boss over and over will ALWAYS improves tactics and lets you fix things you did wrong in the first pulls.   And for the matter of hard core raiders, I could care less if they leave or stay, if they have already cleared everything why are you still here?  Cancel your account till the next expansion, or...don't come back at all.     Probably a bit off topic but had to say it.</div>

[Jal]

I'm by far no hardcore raider, i see little point in this. Whats next a level skip cheat or a reload button?If you want to beat a zone/encounter you go at it until you do. If you run out of time you plan the next raid for a better time when everyone can stay longer.I don't like lockout timers due to incidents and bugs but a generic save point is worse in my opinion as it trivialises the content.If a save point system were to be implemented and used id like to see no loot given for the remainder of the zone as a penalty. Quest updates sure but no loot.<p>Message Edited by Jalek on <span class=date_text>12-08-2006</span> <span class=time_text>04:40 PM</span>

[Gaige]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Langaan wrote: <P>my sincere thought on this is that casual guilds would be able to advance further, and hardcore guilds would not be effected much.  The only thing that would change is that more casual raid guilds will get into the higher end raid zones a bit quicker.</P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I think that is stupid.  You don't pay people who work 20 hours a week the same salary you pay people who work 40 hours a week.  Everywhere you look time invested equates to a better reward.</P> <P>Hobbies, work, life... everything.</P> <P>EH is the only zone in the entire game that can't be cleared in under 2 hours.  If people are so casual that they can't commit 2 hours to the game, then they don't deserve to be rewarded the same as people that can.<BR></P>

[Asp728]

<DIV>Toss my vote in for the 'no saves'.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If you can clear up to a point, redoing it when you come back can only help you improve your strat and time.  Plus you get more gear for your members, which in turn makes it even easiuer next time.  I'd have to say i'd be pretty disappointed if my guild did something like that and skipped mobs just because we killed them once by using a 'save' feature.  And the mountain analogy was....wierd</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>up up down down left right left right B A B A to get to last mob</DIV>

[Computer MAn]

<div></div><div></div><div><blockquote><hr>Langaan wrote:<div></div><p>Im getting confused, which is the real issue...</p> <p>- hardcore raiders will be able to clear zones much faster</p> <p>- softcore guilds will eventually be able to clear the same zones as hardcore guilds</p> <p>- softcore players will end up running around in the same gear as hardcore raiders</p> <p>or is it all of the above?my sincere thought on this is that casual guilds would be able to advance further, and hardcore guilds would not be effected much.  The only thing that would change is that more casual raid guilds will get into the higher end raid zones a bit quicker. </p><hr></blockquote>I am not speaking for all the hardcore raiders but my opinion is why do casual players feel they are entitled to everything? I pay the same $15 as you so I deserve to see this raid zone is the most popular argument. Personally if you aren't willing / can't keep your guild online then you don't deserve the top of the line loot from these zones. I don't care the reason you can't raid for 6 hours a night its the simple argument of the more time / effort / risk you put into a zone the better your rewards. In regards to your 3 questions above the issues I have are hardcore guilds clearing zones faster = bad. They should be difficult and take months to clear so you have something to work for.Casual guilds SHOULD NOT be wearing the same gear as me just by clearing the easy zones. Arguably the best Assassin pants in the game pre-EOF came off the easiest named in labs so every casual in a guild that could get 24 people on was wearing the same pair of pants. There should be some zones clearable by casuals (Labs, Lyceum, Harla, AOA, Clockwork) and then there should be zones that a casual gets destroyed in (DT, HOS, EH, MMIS) if you don't like that find a new guild that can clear that. You have the oppurtunity to raid all the content you just choose not too.I would only be ok with the save points if it was something like this-you have a 6 day lockout on first mob death or trash mobs drop more loot (No loot is prefered)- all the nameds you killed the previous week stay dead- You can not rezone into the zone until your lockout is up (prevents the 6-8 hour days for a week from hardcore guilds)- The entire zone repops EXCLUDING the named. (If you cant clear trash easily then you are out of luck this removes some of the named timesinks)-Upon killing the next mob you get another 6 day lockout-Rinse and repeat until you clear the zone.Now for the record I am COMPLETLY against the idea of save points but if they are going to be put in I would like to see some of these idea's here so if you want to clear the zone bad enough you miss out on a lot of loot and it still takes a long time but you can say you cleared it. </div><p><span class="time_text"></span></p><p>Message Edited by Computer MAn on <span class=date_text>12-08-2006</span> <span class=time_text>09:53 AM</span>

[Langaan]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gaige wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Langaan wrote: <P>my sincere thought on this is that casual guilds would be able to advance further, and hardcore guilds would not be effected much.  The only thing that would change is that more casual raid guilds will get into the higher end raid zones a bit quicker.</P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I think that is stupid.  You don't pay people who work 20 hours a week the same salary you pay people who work 40 hours a week.  Everywhere you look time invested equates to a better reward.</P> <P>Hobbies, work, life... everything.</P> <P>EH is the only zone in the entire game that can't be cleared in under 2 hours.  If people are so casual that they can't commit 2 hours to the game, then they don't deserve to be rewarded the same as people that can.<BR></P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>BINGO!! you are trying to explain your point yet you've pretty much nailed my point right on the head.</P> <P>You are right, people who work 40 horus a week get paid twice as much as those who work 20 hours a week,,,</P> <P>BUT, at the end of two weeks, ive worked 40 horus too havent I?</P> <P>so your analogy and opinion wopuld suggest that I only get paid 20 hours even though i owkred 40 in 2 weeks, because i couldnt put the whole 40 hours in a 1 week period like you, the "hardcore" worker.</P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P>Now for all you hardcore raiders, can some of you please answer one question...</P> <P>Would this saved option , allowing guilds to "continue" after the lockout, change the content for you?</P> <P>What it sounds like to me is that some of you realize the content wouldnt change for you, even though some of you keep saying words like "trivialized" which makes no sense, but isnt the real issue here the fact that you dont want to see other people wearing the same fabled stuff as you?</P> <P> </P> <P>and if so, why not?  saved option or not, anyone who can beat the zone/encounter deserves it dont they?</P> <P>or are you all saying that what really constittues a hardcore versus casual player is the amount of time they can put into one day?</P> <P> </P> <P>im not trying to insult anyone, im really just trying to understand what the real issue is.  </P> <P> </P> <P>how many of you really think casual guilds are going to get geared up as much as and as fast as a hardcore guild, even with the saved option anyway?</P> <P> </P> <P>with the saved option in lets say 3 months ago, it doesnt necassarily mean my guild would be clearing deathtoll by now, but EVEN IF IT DID, we would have cleared it 1 or 2 times for every 5-10 tiems a hardcore guild does.</P> <P> </P> <P>the "let the casual guilds see the content, just dotn give them loot" idea is crap.  </P> <P>hardcore raiders content wouldnt be changed, its amazing how involved and upset some of you can get when it comes to an idea that wopuld benefit so many people, and possibly mean others see the same stuff you do.  its truly amazing.</P> <P> </P> <P>and for whoever suggested that i choose to not be hardcore, or i choose not to see the content, thats unfair.</P> <P> </P> <P>myself in particular, I can commit to about 4 nights of raiding a week, for 3-4 hours.  BUT, i LIKE my guild and i like the people in it, so I CHOOSE to ask soe to give us an option to enjoy this content together.  Sue me.</P>

[Leawyn]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Langaan wrote: <P><BR>BINGO!! you are trying to explain your point yet you've pretty much nailed my point right on the head.</P> <P>You are right, people who work 40 horus a week get paid twice as much as those who work 20 hours a week,,, BUT, at the end of two weeks, ive worked 40 horus too havent I? so your analogy and opinion wopuld suggest that I only get paid 20 hours even though i owkred 40 in 2 weeks, because i couldnt put the whole 40 hours in a 1 week period like you, the "hardcore" worker.</P> <P>Now for all you hardcore raiders, can some of you please answer one question... Would this saved option , allowing guilds to "continue" after the lockout, change the content for you?</P> <P>What it sounds like to me is that some of you realize the content wouldnt change for you, even though some of you keep saying words like "trivialized" which makes no sense, but isnt the real issue here the fact that you dont want to see other people wearing the same fabled stuff as you? and if so, why not?  saved option or not, anyone who can beat the zone/encounter deserves it dont they? or are you all saying that what really constittues a hardcore versus casual player is the amount of time they can put into one day?</P> <P>im not trying to insult anyone, im really just trying to understand what the real issue is.  how many of you really think casual guilds are going to get geared up as much as and as fast as a hardcore guild, even with the saved option anyway? with the saved option in lets say 3 months ago, it doesnt necassarily mean my guild would be clearing deathtoll by now, but EVEN IF IT DID, we would have cleared it 1 or 2 times for every 5-10 tiems a hardcore guild does.</P> <P>the "let the casual guilds see the content, just dotn give them loot" idea is crap.  hardcore raiders content wouldnt be changed, its amazing how involved and upset some of you can get when it comes to an idea that wopuld benefit so many people, and possibly mean others see the same stuff you do.  its truly amazing.</P> <P>and for whoever suggested that i choose to not be hardcore, or i choose not to see the content, thats unfair. myself in particular, I can commit to about 4 nights of raiding a week, for 3-4 hours.  BUT, i LIKE my guild and i like the people in it, so I CHOOSE to ask soe to give us an option to enjoy this content together.  Sue me.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>You know, putting TOO much space between your sentance is equally as annoying as having one big long paragraph. I took the liberty to edit your post to make it not only shorter, but flow better. Now to answer your questions...</P> <UL> <LI><FONT color=#3366ff>Now for all you hardcore raiders, can some of you please answer one question... Would this saved option , allowing guilds to "continue" after the lockout, change the content for you? </FONT><FONT color=#ffffff>Yes it would, because we would no longer have to wait a week between attempts. What makes you think that hardcore raiders would not also take advantage of the lockout-free instances? Of course we'd go back, day after day, until it was beat. That means that instead of taking a month or two to figure out a zone, it takes a week. Then we move onto the next one. And the next. And the entire EOF expansion would be beat in under a month. There IS a problem with that, because the faster a zone moves to "farm status" the faster the raiders get bored. No one likes seeing the same zone week after week, completing it in a matter of hours. The longer it takes to get there, the longer we will continue to play. Its called progression.</FONT></LI> <LI><FONT color=#3366ff>some of you keep saying words like "trivialized" which makes no sense, but isnt the real issue here the fact that you dont want to see other people wearing the same fabled stuff as you? and if so, why not?  </FONT><FONT color=#ffffff>That's exactly it. And the same reason I said before. PROGRESSION! If we put in our 20 hours a week raiding (5 days a week, 4 hours a day, lets say) and are sitting around QH or EFP in exactly the same gear that a part-time raider (10 hour a week, 2-3 days a week, 3-5 hours a day) is wearing, then what is the point of raiding 20 hours a week? There is no longer a gap between hard-core and part-time raiders as far as the reward for the amount of time we put in. I am not oblivious to the fact that part-time raiders want nice gear too. I accept that. But why do part-time raiders insist on having EXACTLY THE SAME as full-time raiders?</FONT></LI> <LI><FONT color=#3366ff>saved option or not, anyone who can beat the zone/encounter deserves it dont they? </FONT><FONT color=#ffffff>Of course, no one is debating that. But while it wouldn't take long for a full-time raid guild to accomplish clearing a zone if there were saves, it also wouldn't take long for a part-time guild either. Instead of being a few months between the full-time guild completing an instance and a part-time, it would now be only a few weeks. Again, progression is completely demolished and any point of rushing to finish anything is compltely moot. Because anyone can take 3 hours in an instance, and say "hey man, we can just save it and come back tomorrow, fully repaired and fresh, and start just where we left off." No way! I'd rather PROGRESS, as in: Last week we got to Corsolander before we ran out of time/gave up. This week we got all the way to Vyemm and even got a few pulls in! We've really made PROGRESS in labs! That feels alot better than: Yesterday we got to Corsolander, but today we zoned into the same instance and finally killed him then got to Vyemm and even got a few pulls in!</FONT></LI> <LI><FONT color=#3366ff>or are you all saying that what really constittues a hardcore versus casual player is the amount of time they can put into one day? </FONT><FONT color=#ffffff>Yeah... if you can't finish Labs in 3 hours this week, maybe you can next week. I don't see any reason for you to get a "do over" because you're incapable of finishing a zone in the alloted amount of time for your raids. You PROGRESS by getting farther in the zone each time you go.</FONT></LI></UL>

[Lotusd]

<div></div><div>PLEASE keep this thread on topic and clean so it doesn't get locked.</div><div> </div><div>I'd like to discuss more ideas about the saved raid zone topic with ideas that will address the hardcore raiders issues.</div><div> </div><div>Best idea I have at this point is this:</div><div> </div><div>1 - lock-out timers stay as they are.</div><div>2 - at the END of the lock-out timer, the guild has the option to start a new zone, OR continue the previous saved instance.</div><div> </div><div>- this gives casual guilds the ability to progress through content without being limited by time, and at the same time it won't result in hardcore raid guilds being able to start a zone, then camp and pull the boss for 8 hours straight the next day.</div><div> </div><div>as far as I can tell, this addresses the hardcore raiders problem with content being made "easier" or "dumbed down".</div><div>Langaan Evonsway, 70 TemplarGuild Leader - Dread@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@ @@@@@</div>I'm Sorry But I that is about the Dumbest Idea I've ever heard of.That would totally take out the risk/reward equation from the game, if your guild doesnt have time for the zone either dont bother or find another guild that has like mindsets and finish the zone.<div></div><p>Message Edited by Lotusd on <span class="date_text">12-08-2006</span><span class="time_text">01:41 PM</span></p><p>Message Edited by Lotusd on <span class=date_text>12-08-2006</span> <span class=time_text>01:42 PM</span>

[Gaige]

<P>Working 40 hours in two weeks you still get paid less than someone who works 40 hours in one week, as far as weekly pay goes.  So your analogy still fails.</P> <P>You get out of the game what you put into it.  If you can't beat a name and progress farther into the zone, you try next week until you can.  With things like menders and repair kits its way easier now than it used to be.</P> <P>No one is entitled to anything in this game, the only guarantee is that you can access it.</P>

[pagit21]

<DIV>I don't recall who said it but they are right.  In the end if you are incapable of taking out the boss mob it >may< hurt you more to skip the easier named in the zone.  The degree to which gear helps definitely varies from guild to guild.  In kos many guilds could clear instances still wearing previous tier fabled while other guilds had to gear up, but in your case gearing up might be more of a benefit than slamming your head against a wall night after night with no gear to show for it.  You being more casual, you might find your people less tolerant of the head to wall interaction.  I am not trying to stereotype more casual players either but it is something you should consider.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Confidence is the memory of your success, and if you have not had a good deal of success in the past, I'm not sure skipping the rest of the zone is a good idea.  You may find it leads to more frustration in the end when you are unable to succeed.</DIV> <P><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN> </P><p>Message Edited by pagit21 on <span class=date_text>12-08-2006</span> <span class=time_text>02:09 PM</span>

[Langaan]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> pagit21 wrote:<BR> <DIV>I don't recall who said it but they are right.  In the end if you are incapable of taking out the boss mob it >may< hurt you more to skip the easier named in the zone.  The degree to which gear helps definitely varies from guild to guild.  In kos many guilds could clear instances still wearing previous tier fabled while other guilds had to gear up, but in your case gearing up might be more of a benefit than slamming your head against a wall night after night with no gear to show for it.  You being more casual, you might find your people less tolerant of the head to wall interaction.  I am not trying to stereotype more casual players either but it is something you should consider.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Confidence is the memory of your success, and if you have not had a good deal of success in the past, I'm not sure skipping the rest of the zone is a good idea.  You may find it leads to more frustration in the end when you are unable to succeed.</DIV> <P><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN> </P> <P>Message Edited by pagit21 on <SPAN class=date_text>12-08-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>02:09 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Well I'd just like to add, this weekend we cleared the trash, kept some toons in zone and continued the zone tonight.</P> <P>until tonight we hadn't killed corsland, and hadnt even tried vyemm / alzid.</P> <P>but tonight, with a fresh start, no trash, we cleared the zone.  We killed Corsland, vyeem & alzid.</P> <P>not only that, but asied from a few mem wipe resists while trying to pull vyemm, we killed all three of the above on the first pull.</P> <P>to be honest, the doom trio and the named b4 corslander has given us more trouble in the past then vyemm did.</P>

[Lariu]

<DIV>There's valid arguments for and against this idea. Personally I see it like this:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>1. Guilds who don't raid at a million miles an hour or for stretches of 8 hours at a time will still be able to explore the deepest areas of the hardest raid zones (eventually). Those guilds who have raided Halls of Seeing, eventually clearing all the roamers and killing the bloodbeast only to wipe to venekor or some roamer they completely forgot about, look at the clock and see they have to go to work in 4 hours, probably feel this is a good idea.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>2. The value of completing these instances in a speedy and organised manner would obviously be reduced - as even those unable to do this could potentially reap the rewards. However, this is quite a selfish and pointless complaint - concentrate on your own guild, not other peoples. AND if you guys are able to clear these zones quickly, you'll still be raiding twice as many zones as the slower guilds - therefore getting more reward.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>A problem I see with this is, what if not everyone who was in the original raid logs in for the follow up? What if not everyone logs in at the same time? Looking at Inner Sanctum, this would be catastrophic and you'd have to start the instance over very shortly after logging in anyway.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>But, the fact that the OP mentions not managing to kill Vyemm until last weekend does make me wonder if anything I just said in support has any validity. You only need a tiny bit of organisation to kill Vyemm and the rest of the zone takes about 2 hours max to clear. I suggest you don't even <EM>begin to feel tempted to think about maybe possibly</EM> going near an EoF raid zone. That's big boy's stuff.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Personally I think there's a danger that this will reduce the new very-welcome level of difficulty in EoF raids. Really the only people clearing these instances should be the people who have earned the right to do so. This means organisation, skill, communication, determination and spirit. If you don't have the balls to work out how to do this stuff, you should maybe stick to the p*ss-weak KoS raids.</DIV>

[Lairdragna]

Gaige, take your Disso-colored glasses off and realize that while every raid zone other than EH can be done in under 2 hours by the top 1% of raid guilds... most guilds will struggle to complete them at all, and when they do it is longer than two hours by and large.  We beat Labs, Lyceum, DT, AOAx4 and we never bothered to do HoS before because we only raid a couple nights a week and prefer to do what we know well.  We're actually making our first crack at HoS tonight, and we will likely beat it... but it will take longer than 2 hours.Now as for the idea of saved raids.  Nope, hate it.  As a casual raider 2-3 nights a week... I think we should either beat the zone at that go around or not.  If we can't, start over until we can get it right.  Then it actually means something.  It took us many months to progress Labs and Lyceum to be able to beat them, less time with DT since we were more experienced and disciplined by then.  The point is, when we beat it, it meant something.  I don't think you should be able to kill a zone by a thousand papercuts and get the rewards.  That's lazy in my opinion.<div></div>

[Fazzarya]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> <FONT color=#3366ff>Now for all you hardcore raiders, can some of you please answer one question... Would this saved option , allowing guilds to "continue" <STRONG><EM>after the lockout</EM></STRONG>, change the content for you? </FONT><FONT color=#ffffff>Yes it would, because we would no longer have to wait a week between attempts. What makes you think that hardcore raiders would not also take advantage of the <U><STRONG>lockout-free</STRONG> </U>instances? </FONT><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Reading comprehension FTW!</P> <P> </P> <P>The OP is not asking to have the lockout removed. He is simply asking that his raid be able to have an option to start where they left off after their lock out expires and they are able to enter the zone again.</P> <P>Hardcore guild #1 clears the zone on Monday completely. They get 10 loots.</P> <P>Casual guild #1 gets through the first two named and then have to quit after reaching the first *save point*. They get 2 loots.</P> <P>week goes by and lockout timer expires...</P> <P>Hardcore guild #1 clears the zone completely. They get 10 loots.</P> <P>Casual guild #1 gets a little better and gets though the next 4 mobs from the first save point to the third save point. They get 4 loots.</P> <P>week goes by and lockout timer expires...</P> <P>Hardcore guild #1 clears the zone completely. They get 10 loots.</P> <P>Casual guild #1 gets through the last 3 named and get some good attempts on the last boss. They get 3 loots.</P> <P>week goes by and lockout timer expires...</P> <P>Hardcore guild #1 clears the zone on Monday completely. They get 10 loots.</P> <P>Casual guild #1 manages to kill the last boss and gets 1 really good loot.</P> <P> </P> <P>So in a 4 week time period, from this particular zone the hardcore guild got 40 loots and the casual guild got 10. Now while I disagree this will fix the feeling of inadequacy that I think actually drives these types of ideas as opposed to actually wanting to see the end game, it is not completely without merit and does not completely kill progression.</P> <P>Could you imagine applying this to the current class specific gear sets? It would take a casual guild years to get what a hardcore guild could do in 6 months once everything is on farm status. I don't think the idea has a chance in hell of seeing production but I think the manner in which people are jumping on the OP is kind of harsh. It is not that bad of an idea, even though I don't agree with it.</P>

[3C HAVOK]

<P>I think what some people are not understanding is part of beating these zones is the time you put into it, To be able to go in every day and pick up where you left off the night before with better gear, or potions you need or classes you need or what not would hurt the end game for hardcore. Yes you pay $15 just like the rest of us, Saying that does not equate to you getting the same things out of the game i do, the $15 dollars gets you access to the content, If you want to see all of it you need to put the time in to get it, Just cause we pay the same amount of money does not make it so you get what the hard core get handed to you, Either put in the time to get to these mobs or dont, but stop asking for it to be handed to you. If thats the case then i want the Mit of plate armor, I pay the same ammount as a guardian does so i should have that, Oh and pets, i pay the same as summoners so i should have some bad [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] pets too you see where im going with this. </P> <P> </P> <P>     I also thing it would make raid events harder, Take clockworks, the fun of htat zone was figuring out what to do, how long to do it and what to kill. If there are save points we loose stuff like that cause you cant have timed dynamic events like that, its just taunt mob, Heal tank bash mob. Boring if ya ask me. </P> <P> </P>

[Langaan]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> 3C HAVOK wrote:<BR> <P> If you want to see all of it you need to put the time in to get it, Just cause we pay the same amount of money does not make it so you get what the hard core get handed to you, Either put in the time to get to these mobs or dont, but stop asking for it to be handed to you.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Who's asking to see the content without putting the time in? How would things be handed to us?</P> <P>Let's just clarify something specific here...</P> <P>My guild at the moment cannot clear labs in under 3 hours, but we can clear it in about 5, without troubles on vyemm etc..A hardcore guild can do the <STRONG>Exact</STRONG> same thing, in less time.  Does this mean the hardcore raiders deserve more?  No it doesnt.  it means hardcore guilds can do it faster, more often etc...</P> <P>Now, my guild, and im sure there are others, have the classes, talent, know-how to clear the lab.  What we dont have is the time to spend 5hrs plus learning the zone.  Granted, some nights we have gone as long as 5 hours, but real life doesnt allow us to do this regularily.</P> <P>point is, it is not talent or know how that is preventing us from killing the mobs, because weve done it.</P> <P>So does the fact that we held the zone open over night to continue the next day & succesfully clear it, get the loot etc..   upset you hardcore raiders?  cause after all, now we are uber like you and are on our way to completely ruining the game for you, right?</P> <P>Dont forget, there are other things than can abolustley bring raids to a halt.  IE: ld's, etc...</P> <P>and who are any of you to tell anyone how fast to beat the zone?  maybe, just maybe we would like to sit back, have some fun, take a break every 10 minutes, whatever... wahts the diff?  just because we dont clear it as quickly as you doesnt mean anything other than the fact that you have done it more, know it better, etc...  and again,, all time.</P> <P>Im not saying all guilds are as talented as some hardcore guilds, thats not my point.</P>

[Leawyn]

If it takes you 5 hours to clear Labs, then schedule it on a Saturday when people can put more time into it.

[Langaan]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Leawyn wrote:<BR> If it takes you 5 hours to clear Labs, then schedule it on a Saturday when people can put more time into it.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Can't, the majority of the guild can't raid during the day.  Most of us have children.

[Leawyn]

I didn't say anything about during the day, did I?

[Danan]

<P>There is many guilds out there that have members capable of clearing the raid zones, but dont have the time to commit to 5 hours of learning/clearing. The old T5 zones was really ideal in that they could be done in less than 1 hour and replacements could be brought in for those that had to leave in between instances. Now they made all zones HUGE, making it so that learning takes many hours and for a hardcore raid guild learning the entire zone will take a few weeks, maybe a month or two. But for the more casual guild this takes months and months, just because they cannot commit to the 5 hours + each night, and for them to actually reach content that they need to learn takes up most of their time.</P> <P>For the Hardcore guilds there is still the contested content that many if not all casual guilds dont even bother with since they are timed and camped by these guilds, imo this is where the hardcore and casual raid guilds are split.</P> <P>I loved the old T5 instances, they were fast and several could be done in a night, that goes for group and raid zones, time was hardly ever an issue, I wish we would see more like that.</P><p>Message Edited by Dananeb on <span class=date_text>12-11-2006</span> <span class=time_text>10:55 AM</span>

[Langaan]

<DIV>I'm sorry, let me clarify then...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>aside from after about 10est time, i cannot play.  There are several of us with the same situation, some with similar situations.</DIV> <DIV>at any rate, i cannot raid before 10:30, and with 3 kids/life i sure as heck cant raid til 3:30 est every weekend.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>we raid tues/thurs/fri/sat, 3-4 hours, but, after 3 hours we lose about 3-5 people.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>doesnt matter.  I play the game any chance i get, which is pretty much every night.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Does it matter anyway?  Whats teh difference between runnning lab 3 hours this fri, than conitnueing and clearing it next fri?</DIV> <DIV>whats the difference between that and raiding for 5 hrs on saturday?  I thought the consensus here was that if we cant clear it in a reasonable amount of time (under 3 hours) then we dont deserve it..</DIV>

[Langaan]

<P>here's another idea/question that might solve the hardcore raiders issue...</P> <P> </P> <P>In the case where guilds have the option to continue where they left off after the lock-out timer expires, what if such zones also had a Max Time limit per entry?</P> <P>So, any guild can enter lab one night, raid for .. let's say 4 hours max.  So after 4 hours, a timer is up and you can't continue until after the lock-out timer expires?</P> <P>does that solve the issue?</P>

[Dogm]

<P>If saving is put in the only way I would agree with it is if it went like this.</P> <P>1.  Zone only saves after you kill a named</P> <P>2. You must wait the full lockout before entering again, and then have the option of starting a fresh zone or continuing where you left off</P> <P>3. All trash mobs in the zone repop (remove relic from their loot table also)</P> <P> </P> <P> </P>

[Gaige]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Langaan wrote:<BR> <DIV>Whats teh difference between runnning lab 3 hours this fri, than conitnueing and clearing it next fri?<BR> <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Because you should have to start at the beginning.</P> <P>As for not having time to play... tough luck.  This is a static world that goes on around you.  If you can't work overtime because you have kids do you ask your boss to disallow overtime to those ppl you work with who don't have kids, so its fair?</P> <P>I don't think so.<BR></P>

[Danan]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE><FONT color=#ffff00></FONT> <HR> Dogmae wrote:<BR> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>If saving is put in the only way I would agree with it is if it went like this. </FONT><FONT color=#ffffff>Well lets do pretend that SOE will ask you.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>1.  Zone only saves after you kill a named. </FONT><FONT color=#ffffff>Perfectly reasonable.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>2. You must wait the full lockout before entering again, and then have the option of starting a fresh zone or continuing where you left off. </FONT><FONT color=#ffffff>This is fine too as progress through the zone is what we are after, not killing the same thing over and over and running out of time at bout the same spot each time.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>3. All trash mobs in the zone repop (remove relic from their loot table also). </FONT><FONT color=#ffffff>We are after progress, not mindless killing of trash, this would just leave us back at the same spot and actually starting a new instance with named in it would be the excact same, we know the strategies for the named just dont have the hours to commit remember?</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00></FONT> </P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00></FONT> </P><BR><FONT color=#ffff00></FONT> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>

[Danan]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gaige wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Langaan wrote:<BR> <DIV>Whats teh difference between runnning lab 3 hours this fri, than conitnueing and clearing it next fri?<BR> <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Because you should have to start at the beginning.</P> <P>As for not having time to play... tough luck.  This is a static world that goes on around you.  If you can't work overtime because you have kids do you ask your boss to disallow overtime to those ppl you work with who don't have kids, so its fair?</P> <P>I don't think so.<BR></P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>This is a game not a job right?

[Langaan]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gaige wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Langaan wrote:<BR> <DIV>Whats teh difference between runnning lab 3 hours this fri, than conitnueing and clearing it next fri?<BR> <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Because you should have to start at the beginning.</P> <P>As for not having time to play... tough luck.  This is a static world that goes on around you.  If you can't work overtime because you have kids do you ask your boss to disallow overtime to those ppl you work with who don't have kids, so its fair?</P> <P>I don't think so.<BR></P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>LOL</P> <P>No, yer absolutely right, infact, what I do is ask if I can put that overtime in on the weekend without pay, cause you know gaige, its not fair that I should get paid overtime on the weekend when the hardcore raid,, re when the other employees worked ot during the week.</P> <P>the other emplyees should get paid, I should not.</P> <P> </P> <P>/sigh</P>

[Langaan]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Dananeb wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE><FONT color=#ffff00></FONT> <HR> Dogmae wrote:<BR> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>If saving is put in the only way I would agree with it is if it went like this. </FONT><FONT color=#ffffff>Well lets do pretend that SOE will ask you.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>1.  Zone only saves after you kill a named. </FONT><FONT color=#ffffff>Perfectly reasonable.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>2. You must wait the full lockout before entering again, and then have the option of starting a fresh zone or continuing where you left off. </FONT><FONT color=#ffffff>This is fine too as progress through the zone is what we are after, not killing the same thing over and over and running out of time at bout the same spot each time.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>3. All trash mobs in the zone repop (remove relic from their loot table also). </FONT><FONT color=#ffffff>We are after progress, not mindless killing of trash, this would just leave us back at the same spot and actually starting a new instance with named in it would be the excact same, we know the strategies for the named just dont have the hours to commit remember?</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00></FONT> </P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00></FONT> </P><BR><FONT color=#ffff00></FONT> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>/agree w/ Dananeb<BR>

[Dogm]

<DIV>If you don't have to kill the trash again then this is what will happen.</DIV> <DIV><BR>Week 1:  Not enough people on to clear labs.   You have 3 groups  so you go to labs and kill all the trash , and the kill 1 easy named to save the zone. </DIV> <DIV>Week 2:  You schedule a raid and go in with 4 full groups and plow through all the named without having to spend any time at all on trash.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Killing the trash to get to the named is a part of the zone,  you shouldnt be able to do that in 2 parts.   Trash mobs die pretty quickly and asking you to kill them again, is not asking much.   </DIV>

[kellan123]

Not trying to be rude:What about a new server with your rule sets? All the casual guilds could transfer to that, and then they could run around with hardcore loot.<div></div>

[Langaan]

<DIV><BR></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Dogmae wrote:<BR> <DIV>If you don't have to kill the trash again then this is what will happen.</DIV> <DIV><BR>Week 1:  Not enough people on to clear labs.   You have 3 groups  so you go to labs and kill all the trash , and the kill 1 easy named to save the zone.</DIV> <DIV>Week 2:  You schedule a raid and go in with 4 full groups and plow through all the named without having to spend any time at all on trash.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Killing the trash to get to the named is a part of the zone,  you shouldnt be able to do that in 2 parts.   Trash mobs die pretty quickly and asking you to kill them again, is not asking much.  </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV><BR>So you suggest that we can save the zone to the point where any named we kill stay down, but trash repop's..</DIV> <DIV>You want trash to repop because it is "part of the zone", yet you want to remove the loot tables from them?  and yet its ok to have the named stay down?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I dont mean to bash anyone, but that just doesnt make sense.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I honestly just don't understand why anyone thinks its fine for a guild to raid the zone 5-6 hrs to clear it, but doesnt want guilds the ability to do it in 2 sessions.  What is the difference?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The ONLY difference is that guild B did it with a 5 day break in the middle.</DIV> <DIV>like I said, what if there were a max limit on the zone?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>you all seem to be ok with the idea that guilds just schedule a day to raid the zone for 6 hours to clear it if thats what they need to do, but you are against the saved option?  whats the difference?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>no need for any more anologies gaige.  I am clear on your answer, which is "just because"</DIV>

[Langaan]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> kellan123 wrote:<BR>Not trying to be rude:<BR><BR>What about a new server with your rule sets? <BR><BR>All the casual guilds could transfer to that, and then they could run around with hardcore loot.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>if soe specific servers with this option, and didnt charge us an arm and leg to transfer, Im 99% sure that server would be highly populated, and very quickly.  (including my guild if they all agree to move)</P> <P>has anyone defined hardcore yet?</P> <P>Is hardcore based on time, effort, or talent?  or all??</P>

[Danan]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> kellan123 wrote:<BR>Not trying to be rude:<BR><BR>What about a new server with your rule sets? <BR><BR>All the casual guilds could transfer to that, and then they could run around with hardcore loot.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>What about a hardcore server with your rules and then all the hardcore guilds could transfer there?, after all hardcore players are the minority. :smileyhappy:</P> <P>I really fail to see how this affects anyone but the people that are actually using this option. Hardcore guilds still own all the contested encounters and they are the first to see most content, all we are asking for is to allow us to experience the content, even if it takes us twice as long to get there.</P>

[Dogm]

<P><BR> </P> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Langaan wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR></DIV> <DIV>you all seem to be ok with the idea that guilds just schedule a day to raid the zone for 6 hours to clear it if thats what they need to do, but you are against the saved option?  whats the difference?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P> </P> <P>The difference is  the game was designed to do it in one session,  the Dev said as much in the last post on this topic.</P> <P><BR></P> <HR> Langaan wrote:<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <BLOCKQUOTE>So you suggest that we can save the zone to the point where any named we kill stay down, but trash repop's..</BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>You want trash to repop because it is "part of the zone", yet you want to remove the loot tables from them?  and yet its ok to have the named stay down?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I dont mean to bash anyone, but that just doesnt make sense.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P> </P> <P>Trash mobs should never have had loot tables, this has been an issue all along.   I would rather not have zone saving at all, I was just giving ideas of how they could do it that IMO would not screw up the game design anymore then it already is.</P> <P> </P> <P> </P>

[Langaan]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Dogmae wrote:<BR> <P><BR> </P> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Langaan wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR></DIV> <DIV>you all seem to be ok with the idea that guilds just schedule a day to raid the zone for 6 hours to clear it if thats what they need to do, but you are against the saved option?  whats the difference?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P> </P> <P>The difference is  the game was designed to do it in one session,  the Dev said as much in the last post on this topic.</P> <P><BR></P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>That is not what he said.</P> <P>The combat, encounters etc.. are in no way designed to be done within a certain time period.  The # of sessions required is only 1, but this is due to the mechanics of the lock-out system, and nothing to do with the difficulty/strategy of the zone.</P> <P>1 session can be 1 minute long, to 26 hours or even longer, it could stay open until server resets.  How can you factor that into the design of the encounters?<BR></P><p>Message Edited by Langaan on <span class=date_text>12-11-2006</span> <span class=time_text>12:28 PM</span>

[Leawyn]

<DIV>Learning to get a zone down in your guild's personal time frame is part of the challenge of a zone. You're asking for easy-mode. When I first joined my old guild, we could also only make it to Corsolander. We were part of an alliance that raided together. It took a few weeks and some hard fought battles but we did eventually get to and kill Vyemm in under 4 hours. Our raids were pre-scheduled, 4 hours on weekends only.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I'm sorry, but taking more than 4 hours on Labs means you are at the bottom of the T7 progression. Get your dps to actually do something instead of stare a mob to death, hone your healers skills so that wipes happen less often. Get your tank geared up so he can take harder hits. Get your chanters to do some of that nifty control stuff so that incoming damage is mitigated to a point.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>In other words, learn the zone, gear up, kill faster, hone  your skills until its done within your time frames. "Save points" just makes me ill. Most raid zones are progressive. You should be happy that you got farther this week than you did last week. You should be proud that this week it only took you 2 hours to get to Corsolander instead of 4. Yes it will happen, but if your guildmates are too lazy to actually dps, then you have to get them to work. Again, 6 hour lab clears takes longer tha pick up raids on my server take to clear it.</DIV>

[Dogm]

<DIV>So you think that the Devs don't think about how long a zone will take when designing it, and populating it with mobs, and how many named to have, how much loot to drop?  The time it will take to complete a zone is a huge factor in lockouts / loot drops etc.<BR></DIV>

[Gaige]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Dananeb wrote:<BR> <BR>This is a game not a job right?<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Its a static game world that is shared by lots of other players.  It isn't a single player game.<BR>

[Langaan]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Leawyn wrote:<BR> <DIV>Learning to get a zone down in your guild's personal time frame is part of the challenge of a zone. You're asking for easy-mode. When I first joined my old guild, we could also only make it to Corsolander. We were part of an alliance that raided together. It took a few weeks and some hard fought battles but we did eventually get to and kill Vyemm in under 4 hours. Our raids were pre-scheduled, 4 hours on weekends only.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I'm sorry, but taking more than 4 hours on Labs means you are at the bottom of the T7 progression. Get your dps to actually do something instead of stare a mob to death, hone your healers skills so that wipes happen less often. Get your tank geared up so he can take harder hits. Get your chanters to do some of that nifty control stuff so that incoming damage is mitigated to a point.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>In other words, learn the zone, gear up, kill faster, hone  your skills until its done within your time frames. "Save points" just makes me ill. Most raid zones are progressive. You should be happy that you got farther this week than you did last week. You should be proud that this week it only took you 2 hours to get to Corsolander instead of 4. Yes it will happen, but if your guildmates are too lazy to actually dps, then you have to get them to work. Again, 6 hour lab clears takes longer tha pick up raids on my server take to clear it.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>That is just wrong.</P> <P>ANY raid capable of clearing the zone should be able to do it.</P> <P>It doesnt matter if it is a high end guild with all the right classes, or a casual guild with heavy healing, and low dps, or missing debuffs etcc..</P> <P>If a guild can take the zone in 2 hours great.  If another guild can take it in 12 hours with a crappy set up, great.  Who are you to determine how long it should take?</P> <P>Yer absolutley right, with practice, we will get faster, etc...  what you are not seeing is the whole point.  This game is intended to be fun.  Progression is fun.  and talent is key, not how much time our real-life allows us to put in at one sitting.</P> <P>Point is, if my guild had the option to raid 5 hours a day, 4-5 days a week, we would be in eof content like you.  but we cant, and since we cant we progress slower, we get less practice in, it takes us longer to get further in the zones Hence even more work for even less practice on deeper mobs.</P> <P>Ill say it again, weve killed vyemm, he was cake.  but the fact that we took 5 hours plus to do it seems to only bother some of you if its done in 2 seesions, but if its done in one its ok?</P>

[Langaan]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gaige wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Dananeb wrote:<BR> <BR>This is a game not a job right?<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Its a static game world that is shared by lots of other players.  It isn't a single player game.<BR><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>?

[Langaan]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Dogmae wrote:<BR> <DIV>So you think that the Devs don't think about how long a zone will take when designing it, and populating it with mobs, and how many named to have, how much loot to drop?  The time it will take to complete a zone is a huge factor in lockouts / loot drops etc.<BR></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>really?  care to explain how the time it takes to complete a zone would play a factor in the devs decisions on loot drops and lock-out timers?</P> <P>and more importantly, how would this be effected by the save option?</P>

[Lairdragna]

The idiocy of this thread astounds me and I hate that you are forcing me to wholeheartedly endorse Gaige and the Disso Debate Team!Here's the deal, my guild did almost no raiding pre-KoS.  Our first few times in Labs we got destroyed.  I think we were in there two months before we killed Vyemm.  Same thing with Lyceum, AoAx4... Harla Darr wasn't so hard, Monoliths we got pretty good at fast.  DT took us around 6 tries to beat it.  As we raided more we got better.  We are by no means a hard core raid guild.  We are a casual/family style guild that made the commitment to do the zones and beat them.  We have spouses, children, 60 hour a week jobs.  We have the same time constraints anybody else has... but we made it happen, and we did it without any gimmicks like saving zones.You are asking for easy mode, there is no doubt about it.  It is one thing for Gaige to come here and tell you that you can do it... a lot of people dismiss the views of hard core raiders because they are playing on a different level.  I'm telling you as one casual raider to another, you don't need it... and it will only diminish any sense of accomplishment you might get.  Let me tell you... I still have that warm fuzzy feeling from beating Tarinax for the first time.  Trust me, do it as intended and you'll appreciate it so much more, even if it is a long road to walk.<div></div>

[Leawyn]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Langaan wrote:<BR>That is just wrong. <P>ANY raid capable of clearing the zone should be able to do it. It doesnt matter if it is a high end guild with all the right classes, or a casual guild with heavy healing, and low dps, or missing debuffs etcc.. If a guild can take the zone in 2 hours great.  If another guild can take it in 12 hours with a crappy set up, great.  Who are you to determine how long it should take? Yer absolutley right, with practice, we will get faster, etc...  what you are not seeing is the whole point.  This game is intended to be fun.  Progression is fun.  and talent is key, not how much time our real-life allows us to put in at one sitting.</P> <P>Point is, if my guild had the option to raid 5 hours a day, 4-5 days a week, we would be in eof content like you.  but we cant, and since we cant we progress slower, we get less practice in, it takes us longer to get further in the zones Hence even more work for even less practice on deeper mobs. Ill say it again, weve killed vyemm, he was cake.  but the fact that we took 5 hours plus to do it seems to only bother some of you if its done in 2 seesions, but if its done in one its ok?<BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>You have some serious comprehension problems (not to mention the problem of hitting enter twice after every sentance.... really annoying as I said before).</P> <P>I am not telling you to sit down and raid for longer than you are comfortable with. I am telling you that, on my server, pick up raids can complete Labs, from beginning to end including all nameds, in less than 6 hours. A pick up raid, of 24 people who likely have never grouped with each other let alone raided together can complete it faster than you. That is something you need to SERIOUSLY look at if you want to raid. I'm sorry that you feel that dps isn't important. Having 12 healers in a 24 person raid doesn't mean you win. It means fights will take forever. If you're ok with that, fine. But don't come crying here that you can't complete the easiest T7 raid zone in less than 6 hours so now you want to push pause and come back later.</P> <P>Part of growing as a raiding guild, no matter what level you are at is being able to progress farther this week than you did last week. If that means that last week you got to Slavering Alzid in 4 hours, and this week you got to Corsolander, then great, you progressed. If that means that you managed to get Matron to 50% instead of 85%, then you've progressed. If you have allotted 4 hours to raid, then do the best you can in those 4 hours. Eventually (I'm talking a matter of weeks, because as i said before, I HAVE been there!) you will be able to kill all of Labs in those 4 hours.</P> <P>I'm sorry that you feel you need to see all content RIGHTNOWTHISVERYSECOND instead of working on it and progressing every week like everyone else did.</P>

[Original Cinadien]

Vote No On "Proposition Lazy" It would be [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]. I am still mad at what they did with KoS/Open relic raids trying to appeal to the WoW playerbase who want everything the easy way. <div></div>

[Noaani]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gaige wrote:<BR> <BR> <P>I think that is stupid.  You don't pay people who work 20 hours a week the same salary you pay people who work 40 hours a week.  Everywhere you look time invested equates to a better reward.</P> <P>Hobbies, work, life... everything.</P> <P>EH is the only zone in the entire game that can't be cleared in under 2 hours.  If people are so casual that they can't commit 2 hours to the game, then they don't deserve to be rewarded the same as people that can.<BR></P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>While I understand where you are coming from here, try to remember that you are surrently in what most consider to be the top guild in this entier game. What takes 2 hours for you and your guild may well take 10 - 12 hours for a less experianced guild, one that is just starting out. I think you would agree that 10 - 12 hours raiding in a single zone is a bit too much to ask. Now, my current guild can clear labs in about 90 minutes (twice what it takes you guys from what I hear), so we do not have any issues with lockouts or anything like that, but I am aware that others do.</P> <P>I am totally against the idea of every zone having a load/save type arrangement in place of current lockouts, but I fail to see any reason that some zones can't have them.</P> <P>What I would like to see is something like putting some raid zones on a system  so that guilds with less experiance, or with people spread out over many differant time zones can still spend a few hours over differant days during a week working on the zone. Each individual toon would only be allowed one active zone at any given time, by that I mean a person could not start a Labs run, kill a few names, then decide to go off to HoS and have the state of both zones saved. In this example, when they try to zone in to HoS, they get a message saying they have an active Labs raid, and have to abandon that saved zone state in order to zone in to HoS (and will prolly die to the golems outside HoS while all this goes on).</P> <P>To me, this works fine for everyone. Top end zones like DT or EH would NOT be on a save/load system at all, but instances that are considered 'beginner' for the tier/expantion would be (Courts in T6, Labs and HoS for KoS, maybe freethinkers for EoF i guess). Again, each person could only have one active saved instance at any given time, so if there guild was half way through raiding HoS, and someone was looking for people for a Labs trash run, that person would have to decide wether or not they want to cancel thier HoS state and join the Labs trash (for that one person only, where if they cancel it they are effectivly starting a normal lockout of the zone for themself), or do they want to go back and help out their guild when they all return to that zone later on in the week.</P> <P>What I see this as doing is providing those people not in top end raiding guilds (or middle tier raiding guilds even) a chance to do a bit of raiding. It will not effect the progression of the game at all (well, it doesn't need to anyway).</P> <P>For this to work, in a manner that sees the more hardcore raiders not all leave the game in droves (again), SoE would need to implement propper itemisation that has a natural flow from non lockout zones being above heroic content, but with the top end zones having a total and complete replacement for EVERY item that drops in the non lockout zone. For example, if i find some cloth gloves in the non lockout zone with 25 int, 20 sta, 20 wis, and 10 str, 100 HP and power, and 200 to each resist, I would expect there to be a single pair of cloth gloves drop in a lockout zone that in every single way are clearly better than those gloves (30 int, 25 sta and wis, 15 str, 125 HP and power, 500 to each resist, and a useful proc).</P> <P>Honestly, I can see why people like Gaige are against an idea like this (Labs dropping some of the best loot in KoS is a clear winner for this), but if itemisation was made to actually follow some sort of logical progression (where the easy mobs drop ok loot, but the hard mobs always drop something better), I can really not see any reason for anyone to be upset by it at all.</P> <P>Edit: some of the restrictions I would like to see in place if anything like this were to actually happen</P> <P>1, when you zone in to an instance, you have 7 days in which to clear it. After 7 days, the zone is reset.</P> <P>2, once a raid zones out of an instance, it has 48 hours to zone back in to that instance or it is reset.</P> <P>3, you can not zone in to a saved instance with less than half of your raid having been in that instance previously.</P> <P>4, if an instance is x4, you can not enter with less than 3 full groups, if it is x2, you can not enter with less than 9 people.</P> <P>5, once you clear the zone, or the zone resets, you are from that point on subject to the same lockout timer that everyone that cleared the zone in one sitting is</P> <P>All of this is rather than having weekly respawns like WoW does, which I personally dislike, and it also provides those that are able to clear a zone in one sitting a distinct advantage over those that are not, in that they can clear it more often. While it does not remove lockouts at all, it provides those people that want to be able to re-enter a zone the means to do so, from the point at which they last left. It does this with a few restrictions placed on them, in that they can not start raiding another instance while they have there current raid open, and it can not be maintained indefinatly. Top end raiders have a few advantages over those that need to save/load in that they will be able to clear the zone more often, although since propper itemsation should be in place before this gets implemented, they will have little reason to go in other than filling up the guild bank, or equipping alts.</P><p>Message Edited by Noaani on <span class=date_text>12-13-2006</span> <span class=time_text>09:35 AM</span>

[Pins]

<blockquote><hr>Noaani wrote:Honestly, I can see why people like Gaige are against an idea like this (Labs dropping some of the best loot in KoS is a clear winner for this), but if itemisation was made to actually follow some sort of logical progression (where the easy mobs drop ok loot, but the hard mobs always drop something better), I can really not see any reason for anyone to be upset by it at all.<hr></blockquote>Which is the exact reason why I am completely against saved raid zones because of how raid content does not have very much gear progression in EQ2. It's, get your raid fabled out, kill stuff. Instead of, get your raid fabled out with low-quality fabled, kill low-end stuff to get raid better quality fabled, and kill higher end stuff as time goes by until you hit the top.

[Noaani]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Pinski wrote:<BR><BR><BR>Which is the exact reason why I am completely against saved raid zones because of how raid content does not have very much gear progression in EQ2. It's, get your raid fabled out, kill stuff. Instead of, get your raid fabled out with low-quality fabled, kill low-end stuff to get raid better quality fabled, and kill higher end stuff as time goes by until you hit the top.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Yeah, after thinking about it for a half hour or so longer, its really not something that can be retrofitted to the game we have now, without a total re-itemisation of every raid instance in placce. However, that is no reason for it to not be added in the future, on new content, with propper itemisation.

[Gaige]

<P>While I must reinforce the fact that I think saved instances suck, if you were going to implement them in EQ2, the above way would be the only way that even kind of make sense and is "fair".</P> <P>Progression though dictates lockouts and no saved anything, and although EoF seems to kind of be making strides toward progression, everyone knows its a long way off.</P> <P>The WoW system would be bad here, for obvious reasons.</P><p>Message Edited by Gaige on <span class=date_text>12-13-2006</span> <span class=time_text>09:48 AM</span>

[Langaan]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gaige wrote:<BR> <P>While I must reinforce the fact that I think saved instances suck, if you were going to implement them in EQ2, the above way would be the only way that even kind of make sense and is "fair".</P> <P>Progression though dictates lockouts and no saved anything, and although EoF seems to kind of be making strides toward progression, everyone knows its a long way off.</P> <P>The WoW system would be bad here, for obvious reasons.</P> <P>Message Edited by Gaige on <SPAN class=date_text>12-13-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>09:48 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Maybe I am confused about the purpose of lockouts.  I thought lock-outs were in place to prevent farming of the zone, not to force raids to finish within a specific instance.</P> <P>Progression versus loot is kinda beside the point isn't it?  If I compare Dissolution and my guild, and the saved zone idea, here's what I forsee:</P> <P>Dissolution would essentially not be effected whatsoever.  Dissolution would still clear the zone once a week, and bring in 1 set of trash loot and 1 set of named loot, which is what you could do now.  My guild however, would be able to also clear lab once a week and bring in the same loot, as opposed to only getting part way in and restarting a week later.  The diiference with respect to loot though, is that right now a guild that doesnt clear the zone, brings in all the relic etc... from trash every week, and some named items.  With the saved option, that same guild would bring in that trash once every 2 weeks instead of every week.</P> <P>Now I see that you may be concerned about the simple fact that this option would allow my guild specifically to clear lab and get some nice fabled of the bosses etc..  but at the same time, this option is NOT going to benefit guilds who simply dont have the talent to do it.  What it will do, is allow them to get to that point faster.  Also, if my guild is spending 2 nights a week in lab, that means that we are not raiding aoa, deathtoll or whatever it may be on that second night in question, hence less loot.</P> <P>I totally understand and agree that guilds who attain loot from boss mobs etc,,, need to deserve/eanr it.  but I disagree that having to do it in one sitting is necassary.</P> <P>Do you guys from dissolution understand where I'm comming from?  I'll be honest with you, my guild isnt high on the dps, but we've proven we have enough to beat the zone.  I imagine your guild hits 20k plus dps, whereas we are LUCKY to hit 10k.  No, we dont have a brigand at the moment, and yes, we are heavy on the ae dps rather than single target dps, both issues hurt us on dps, but the fact is we can kill every mob in the zone with what we do have.</P> <P> </P>

[Gaige]

If you had saved instances the only fair way is an 8h lockout on zoneout everyday and then a 7 day when the boss dies, so that you could only effectively do it once every two weeks.

[Langaan]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gaige wrote:<BR> If you had saved instances the only fair way is an 8h lockout on zoneout everyday and then a 7 day when the boss dies, so that you could only effectively do it once every two weeks.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>I would be more than happy with that.

[Leawyn]

<DIV>*sigh* again, Lang, what you fail to see is that, with time and dedication, your raid force (even at that dps number) can complete Labs in 4 hours. I know. I've been there. I coulda sworn I told you that before. I was in a guild that was part of an alliance that was just starting to raid T7. We had scheduled raids that lasted 4 hours. After that, I had to call it quits because it was on weekends and I had my kids to look after. When I started raiding with the alliance, we were just like you, getting to the guy before Corsolander, but never past that because we simply ran out of time.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>After a few weeks, we were able to get to Vyemm, but ran out of time pulling him. A few weeks after that, we took him down for the first time. All in 4 hours.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And part of the enjoyment of the zone was being able to get to Vyemm in under 2 hours, leaving us 2 hours to pull him and try him out. The first time we beat him, it was a 3 hour total run. Then we spent an hour dueling each other on his platform lol!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>It just wouldn't have felt like as much of an accomplishment if we had a "pause" button that allowed us to come back to a half-empty zone the next week. The enjoyment was in being able to get farther each week. Progressing a little bit at a time. And now you want to take that away by allowing guilds to walk into already-empty zones and just take on the named. If you think this wouldn't speed up progress or not affect top-end guilds, you're wrong. Instead of taking 3-4 weeks to figure out a zone and get it down in the raid time frame, they would clear a zone in 2 weeks, first week to clear halfway through, or as far as they can (look at MMIS, many top end guilds got to Mayong on the first time through) then come back a week later and have 5-6 hours of nothing but pulling the last named. Most guilds on the cutting edge can at least get a working strat by then, if not take it down outright.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>No thanks. I'd rather there be progress each week, even if its tiresome to kill the same trash and same 3 nameds every time. At least they're dropping loot that makes the guild stronger so they CAN progress farther.</DIV>

[Geothe]

<P>I agree keep the normal lockout timers if a progress save option is introduced to certain raid zones.</P> <P>Moreover, I think the raid save should be a guild function. ie, a person doesn't save the progress, but the "guild" does.  And that a guild can only have one raid instance saved at a time.  </P> <P>That would make this truely an option for the casual raiding guilds.  You're not a "casual" guild if you are raiding 3-4 nights a week want to be able to save progress in 3-4 zones at once so you can rotate them around each night.  If you are raiding that often you should be able to clear a zone in one night I'd think.</P> <P>But the casual guild that gears up to raid once a week, like a friday or saturday night, being able to save a single raid zone would allow them to work their way through the zone over 2-3+ weeks.  That seems perfectly fine to me.</P> <P>And as far as new expansion zones go, I think there should be a delay before a progress save should be allowed.  Something like 6-9 months after the zones are introduced.  That way the save function cant be used to "find the key to beating the zone."  Only long after the zones are being cleared routinely by "hardcore" guilds would saves be avaliable.</P>

[Langaan]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Leawyn wrote:<BR> <DIV>*sigh* again, Lang, what you fail to see is that, with time and dedication, your raid force (even at that dps number) can complete Labs in 4 hours. I know. I've been there. I coulda sworn I told you that before. I was in a guild that was part of an alliance that was just starting to raid T7. We had scheduled raids that lasted 4 hours. After that, I had to call it quits because it was on weekends and I had my kids to look after. When I started raiding with the alliance, we were just like you, getting to the guy before Corsolander, but never past that because we simply ran out of time.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>After a few weeks, we were able to get to Vyemm, but ran out of time pulling him. A few weeks after that, we took him down for the first time. All in 4 hours.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And part of the enjoyment of the zone was being able to get to Vyemm in under 2 hours, leaving us 2 hours to pull him and try him out. The first time we beat him, it was a 3 hour total run. Then we spent an hour dueling each other on his platform lol!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>It just wouldn't have felt like as much of an accomplishment if we had a "pause" button that allowed us to come back to a half-empty zone the next week. The enjoyment was in being able to get farther each week. Progressing a little bit at a time. And now you want to take that away by allowing guilds to walk into already-empty zones and just take on the named. If you think this wouldn't speed up progress or not affect top-end guilds, you're wrong. Instead of taking 3-4 weeks to figure out a zone and get it down in the raid time frame, they would clear a zone in 2 weeks, first week to clear halfway through, or as far as they can (look at MMIS, many top end guilds got to Mayong on the first time through) then come back a week later and have 5-6 hours of nothing but pulling the last named. Most guilds on the cutting edge can at least get a working strat by then, if not take it down outright.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>No thanks. I'd rather there be progress each week, even if its tiresome to kill the same trash and same 3 nameds every time. At least they're dropping loot that makes the guild stronger so they CAN progress farther.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>I dunno why you keep repeating yourself, I understand what you are saying, and understood it the first time you said it.  As far as accomplishment goes, i see what you mean as well.  But to me, clearing teh zone is an accomplishment regardless of how long it takes.  Yes, clearing it faster may seem like yet another accomplishment, but thats an accomplishement you prefer, not me.</P> <P>Do you have any ideas that fix the issue with hardcore guilds being able to clear new zones faster?</P>

[Lairdragna]

What possible sense of accomplishment can you get from saving a raid instance until you eventually defeat it?  If I want to say I ran the NYC Marathon, I have to run 26 miles in the same effort...  I don't get to run two miles today, three miles tomorrow, a mile the day after... and when I hit 26 claim I ran the marathon.  Beating a zone means you start and complete it in the same gaming session.<div></div>

[Leawyn]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Lairdragna wrote:<BR>What possible sense of accomplishment can you get from saving a raid instance until you eventually defeat it?  If I want to say I ran the NYC Marathon, I have to run 26 miles in the same effort...  I don't get to run two miles today, three miles tomorrow, a mile the day after... and when I hit 26 claim I ran the marathon.  Beating a zone means you start and complete it in the same gaming session.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Thank you Lair!</P> <P>You want to muffle the sense of accomplishment until its nothing more than "Ok, it only took us 3 weeks to clear the zone! On our FIRST trip!" ugh... thanks anyway.</P>

[denboj]

<P> While I must reinforce the fact that I think saved instances suck, if you were going to implement them in EQ2, the above way would be the only way that even kind of make sense and is "fair". </P> <P>Fun to make it a fact that you think something <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P>Howver, what is being requested here isnt new, it is how potime worked in eq1 and how wow raids works. As having played all 3 i wont say that it is either good or bad or helpfull or not to casual guilds, it is just different. It is pretty simple, if you want to operate with saved instances you simply have to make raid zones ALOT harder. The difficaulty factor in current eq2 rolls arround 3 factors. Time, geardurability and only one attempt per week. </P> <P>By saving instances you would take out all of the above factors wich means that everyone would keep hammering their heads against any given raid zone untill they got it down every single day. </P> <P>In comparasion, in wow when playing that over a year ago, when Blackwing lair was released we used 30 wipes a day for a month straight getting down the first named, after that 6 wipes a day (timed event) for 14 days getting the second named down etc. </P> <P>So the big issue here simply have nothing to do with casual or hardcore. It is simply a fact that the current raid zones are not built for saved instancing, they are built over the concept of difficaulty being time, geardurability and 1 attempt per week.</P> <P>Message Edited by denboj on <SPAN class=date_text>12-14-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>05:05 PM</SPAN></P><p>Message Edited by denboj on <span class=date_text>12-14-2006</span> <span class=time_text>05:05 PM</span>

[PhroZenAssassin]

<DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> kellan123 wrote:<BR>Not trying to be rude:<BR><BR>What about a new server with your rule sets? <BR><BR>All the casual guilds could transfer to that, and then they could run around with hardcore loot.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Perfect idea for when this does get implemented (Us hardcore people are kidding ourselves if we think it wont, you know how SoE gives in to whiny people). Also make the loot tables on that server below par compared to the non-lame non-"save point" raid zone servers. All "hardcore" people can then also disregard any achievements they make also due to being on a "save-point" server.</DIV><p>Message Edited by PhroZenAssassin on <span class=date_text>12-15-2006</span> <span class=time_text>12:34 AM</span>

[Cynnigig]

<DIV>Right now my raid guild is learning the EOF zones, so we a</DIV>

[Cynnigig]

<DIV>Right now my raid guild is learning the EOF zones, so we are spending much more time in the zones than we have spent in the past months in the KoS zones. Take Freethinkers for example. It took us two nights to defeat the first named. Would we have saved the zone then and continued on to the second name the next time? No way. Doing the zone from the beginning each time is a much better decision - you get more practice and you get more loot. Depriving yourself of this by saving the zone will not help you, when you reach the second named. Incidently, the second time we killed Zylphax, it was on the first pull. Everyone who raids knows that the biggest problem is figuring out the tactics. Once you have overcome that obstacle, most fights are quite easy.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Killing a named and winning loot is something positive for the raid. Spending two or more nights for the first named kill, getting one piece of loot, then another after two or more nights for the second named kill - who do you think will have enough motivation to do this? You need some progression, you need to see your success, you need to get geared up. I cannot see how saving a zone will help anybody in any way.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Also, I fail to see why a casual guild should not be able to complete Labs in sensible time (3-4 hours). It is simply practice. A hardcore raiding guild will achieve this much faster than the casual guild, but I see no hinderance to a casual guild eventually achieving it too. If you simply cannot do labs in an acceptable time, even after 6 months of practice, then I think saving the zone is not the solution to your problems.</DIV><p>Message Edited by Cynnigig on <span class=date_text>12-15-2006</span> <span class=time_text>03:49 PM</span>