Saved Raid Zones

[Langaan]

PLEASE keep this thread on topic and clean so it doesn't get locked.

 

I'd like to discuss more ideas about the saved raid zone topic with ideas that will address the hardcore raiders issues.

 

Best idea I have at this point is this:

 

1 - lock-out timers stay as they are.

2 - at the END of the lock-out timer, the guild has the option to start a new zone, OR continue the previous saved instance.

 

- this gives casual guilds the ability to progress through content without being limited by time, and at the same time it won't result in hardcore raid guilds being able to start a zone, then camp and pull the boss for 8 hours straight the next day.

 

as far as I can tell, this addresses the hardcore raiders problem with content being made "easier" or "dumbed down".

[Leawyn]

It was closed by a dev who said they are looking into the possibility. What more do you want?

[Langaan]

They are still going to need input on the idea if/when they do it.  Im just trying to get a community idea as to what would work best for everyone.

 

Please stay on topic.

[Leawyn]

I was on topic. I think its a lame idea and will alow people access to mobs that they couldn't get to otherwise. But I realize this game is built around the soft-core not hard-core, so what little progression that is out there is going to be sucked away as any guild with enough time will be able to kill the same thing as all the other guilds.

[kellan123]

I think that you will have a lot of high-end/hard core guilds seeking other avenues of entertainment (other games) when they see family-style guilds running around in the same gear.I am all for the casual style of play, in fact I like to solo when not raiding so I can get other things done in my life. I don't know, I guess I'm undecided. There's postives and negatives. I actually miss my first raids in EQ1 that were like a weekend long in the Plane of Fear and consisted of 35 different wipes. It made the game more challenging.Does anyone else think this will trivialize the game? It reminds of that Real Time Save function on games where in an emulator, you can save/load the state at ANY time by pressing a key, whereas in the real game, you had to make it to some save point.As of now, I don't care about death penalties. I'd hate to think that someday in the future, I wouldn't care about raid accomplishments where you felt good when you "stuck it out another hour to finish the zone."Maybe not a total save on the raid zone, is in order. Trash would respawn, or something.I liken it to removing timers on the quests that have them. Not being able to pause an MMORPG made me feel like it's a world going on with or without me. Wouldn't it just seem like an XBOX 360 game where you and 10 buddies called each other, jumped online and played a mission, then logged off?

[Langaan]

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Leawyn wrote:

I was on topic. I think its a lame idea and will alow people access to mobs that they couldn't get to otherwise. But I realize this game is built around the soft-core not hard-core, so what little progression that is out there is going to be sucked away as any guild with enough time will be able to kill the same thing as all the other guilds.

---

So Leawyn, if the above idea was in place, would you still think it would ruin the game for you?

 

Im getting confused, which is the real issue...

- hardcore raiders will be able to clear zones much faster

- softcore guilds will eventually be able to clear the same zones as hardcore guilds

- softcore players will end up running around in the same gear as hardcore raiders

or is it all of the above?

 

my sincere thought on this is that casual guilds would be able to advance further, and hardcore guilds would not be effected much.  The only thing that would change is that more casual raid guilds will get into the higher end raid zones a bit quicker.

I dont necassarily think there would be a bunch of new guilds out there clearing deathtoll any time soon, but eventually  yes.

 

 

[Leawyn]

If there is no clear definition of what a hard-core guild vs a soft-core guild can complete, then there is no progression. If everyone was allowed to "save" their progression, hard-core guilds would have zones figured out before the first week, because they'd have day after day after day to just pound away at it, and, at least for my guild, that means 5-6 hours a night, until its done. If we could have Freethinkers open every night, I can promise you we would do it every night until we had the final mob killed. Now my guild is not cutting-edge by any means, but by negating lockouts by having zones "save" it would mean that we would finish zones only days after the top guild instead of weeks after. The clear break between the best, and the rest, would be blurred to oblivion, because the best would be killing the same thing as even the most casual of guilds.

Honestly there is nothing stopping you now from "saving" your instance, if you're willing to stay logged in until the next day (provided no server reset). I have no problem with more casual raiding, I used to do it myself. But if you CHOOSE to casually raid, you are CHOOSING to not be a hard-core, cutting edge type of guild. What I mean is, by only raiding a couple days a week, a few hours at that, there simply are things you will not see until they are trivial due to any number of reasons, like a new expansion or a level cap increase. By CHOOSING to be casual, you also CHOOSE to not see everything first, or even at all. I understand you want to see the end game too, but there HAS to be something to work towards, cuz if everyone can hang at the top, then it is no longer a goal, just a step.

(this is ONLY talking of instances, as I know the top end guilds have contested which to fight over, but that is a whole other situation, without even the possiblity of "saving" their progress)

Message Edited by Leawyn on 12-07-2006 02:28 PM

[mikemcmodmi]

Saving the zone will only hurt you in the end.  You can either kill a mob or you can't.  If you can kill a mob you should be rekilling it over and over to gear up for harder stuff.  If you can't kill a mob saving the zone so you get more chances won't help you.  Thinking it would is just dilluding yourself and using it as an excuse when the real reason is you aren't coordinated, geared or skilled enough yet to take the mob down yet.

[Fatkiddown]

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mikemcmodmike wrote:

Saving the zone will only hurt you in the end.  You can either kill a mob or you can't.  If you can kill a mob you should be rekilling it over and over to gear up for harder stuff.  If you can't kill a mob saving the zone so you get more chances won't help you.  Thinking it would is just dilluding yourself and using it as an excuse when the real reason is you aren't coordinated, geared or skilled enough yet to take the mob down yet.

---

Now that is completely wrong in every way.  Ok I don't know where you are from but lets say you need to climb Mt Washtington in New Hampshire right?  Now would you rather start at Pinkam Notch ranger station and hike 4miles and gain 4,000ft or would it matter if you started in Boston hundreds of miles away and keep right on hiking Mt. Washington after having already hiked 100miles?  Yea the hardcore crowd could say heck yea we cleared it in one day and the rest of you had to use saves and point your fingers and laugh at us noobs but we really don't care.   I think the OP is just trying to hash out ideas for how to make this work and please as many as possible (hardcore and casual).  It sounds like SOE is considering saves in the future so why not try to figure out the best balance for everyone.Point being, raid saves would be like a stopover at the ranger station before continuing on up the mountain the next day.   And yes pulling a boss over and over will ALWAYS improves tactics and lets you fix things you did wrong in the first pulls.   And for the matter of hard core raiders, I could care less if they leave or stay, if they have already cleared everything why are you still here?  Cancel your account till the next expansion, or...don't come back at all.     Probably a bit off topic but had to say it.

[Jal]

I'm by far no hardcore raider, i see little point in this. Whats next a level skip cheat or a reload button?If you want to beat a zone/encounter you go at it until you do. If you run out of time you plan the next raid for a better time when everyone can stay longer.I don't like lockout timers due to incidents and bugs but a generic save point is worse in my opinion as it trivialises the content.If a save point system were to be implemented and used id like to see no loot given for the remainder of the zone as a penalty. Quest updates sure but no loot.

Message Edited by Jalek on 12-08-2006 04:40 PM

[Gaige]

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Langaan wrote:

my sincere thought on this is that casual guilds would be able to advance further, and hardcore guilds would not be effected much.  The only thing that would change is that more casual raid guilds will get into the higher end raid zones a bit quicker.

---

I think that is stupid.  You don't pay people who work 20 hours a week the same salary you pay people who work 40 hours a week.  Everywhere you look time invested equates to a better reward.

Hobbies, work, life... everything.

EH is the only zone in the entire game that can't be cleared in under 2 hours.  If people are so casual that they can't commit 2 hours to the game, then they don't deserve to be rewarded the same as people that can.

[Asp728]

Toss my vote in for the 'no saves'.

 

If you can clear up to a point, redoing it when you come back can only help you improve your strat and time.  Plus you get more gear for your members, which in turn makes it even easiuer next time.  I'd have to say i'd be pretty disappointed if my guild did something like that and skipped mobs just because we killed them once by using a 'save' feature.  And the mountain analogy was....wierd

 

up up down down left right left right B A B A to get to last mob

[Computer MAn]

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Langaan wrote:

Im getting confused, which is the real issue...

- hardcore raiders will be able to clear zones much faster

- softcore guilds will eventually be able to clear the same zones as hardcore guilds

- softcore players will end up running around in the same gear as hardcore raiders

or is it all of the above?my sincere thought on this is that casual guilds would be able to advance further, and hardcore guilds would not be effected much.  The only thing that would change is that more casual raid guilds will get into the higher end raid zones a bit quicker. 

---

I am not speaking for all the hardcore raiders but my opinion is why do casual players feel they are entitled to everything? I pay the same $15 as you so I deserve to see this raid zone is the most popular argument. Personally if you aren't willing / can't keep your guild online then you don't deserve the top of the line loot from these zones. I don't care the reason you can't raid for 6 hours a night its the simple argument of the more time / effort / risk you put into a zone the better your rewards. In regards to your 3 questions above the issues I have are hardcore guilds clearing zones faster = bad. They should be difficult and take months to clear so you have something to work for.Casual guilds SHOULD NOT be wearing the same gear as me just by clearing the easy zones. Arguably the best Assassin pants in the game pre-EOF came off the easiest named in labs so every casual in a guild that could get 24 people on was wearing the same pair of pants. There should be some zones clearable by casuals (Labs, Lyceum, Harla, AOA, Clockwork) and then there should be zones that a casual gets destroyed in (DT, HOS, EH, MMIS) if you don't like that find a new guild that can clear that. You have the oppurtunity to raid all the content you just choose not too.I would only be ok with the save points if it was something like this-you have a 6 day lockout on first mob death or trash mobs drop more loot (No loot is prefered)- all the nameds you killed the previous week stay dead- You can not rezone into the zone until your lockout is up (prevents the 6-8 hour days for a week from hardcore guilds)- The entire zone repops EXCLUDING the named. (If you cant clear trash easily then you are out of luck this removes some of the named timesinks)-Upon killing the next mob you get another 6 day lockout-Rinse and repeat until you clear the zone.Now for the record I am COMPLETLY against the idea of save points but if they are going to be put in I would like to see some of these idea's here so if you want to clear the zone bad enough you miss out on a lot of loot and it still takes a long time but you can say you cleared it.

Message Edited by Computer MAn on 12-08-2006 09:53 AM

[Langaan]

---

Gaige wrote:

---

Langaan wrote:

my sincere thought on this is that casual guilds would be able to advance further, and hardcore guilds would not be effected much.  The only thing that would change is that more casual raid guilds will get into the higher end raid zones a bit quicker.

---

I think that is stupid.  You don't pay people who work 20 hours a week the same salary you pay people who work 40 hours a week.  Everywhere you look time invested equates to a better reward.

Hobbies, work, life... everything.

EH is the only zone in the entire game that can't be cleared in under 2 hours.  If people are so casual that they can't commit 2 hours to the game, then they don't deserve to be rewarded the same as people that can.

---

BINGO!! you are trying to explain your point yet you've pretty much nailed my point right on the head.

You are right, people who work 40 horus a week get paid twice as much as those who work 20 hours a week,,,

BUT, at the end of two weeks, ive worked 40 horus too havent I?

so your analogy and opinion wopuld suggest that I only get paid 20 hours even though i owkred 40 in 2 weeks, because i couldnt put the whole 40 hours in a 1 week period like you, the "hardcore" worker.

 

 

Now for all you hardcore raiders, can some of you please answer one question...

Would this saved option , allowing guilds to "continue" after the lockout, change the content for you?

What it sounds like to me is that some of you realize the content wouldnt change for you, even though some of you keep saying words like "trivialized" which makes no sense, but isnt the real issue here the fact that you dont want to see other people wearing the same fabled stuff as you?

 

and if so, why not?  saved option or not, anyone who can beat the zone/encounter deserves it dont they?

or are you all saying that what really constittues a hardcore versus casual player is the amount of time they can put into one day?

 

im not trying to insult anyone, im really just trying to understand what the real issue is. 

 

how many of you really think casual guilds are going to get geared up as much as and as fast as a hardcore guild, even with the saved option anyway?

 

with the saved option in lets say 3 months ago, it doesnt necassarily mean my guild would be clearing deathtoll by now, but EVEN IF IT DID, we would have cleared it 1 or 2 times for every 5-10 tiems a hardcore guild does.

 

the "let the casual guilds see the content, just dotn give them loot" idea is crap. 

hardcore raiders content wouldnt be changed, its amazing how involved and upset some of you can get when it comes to an idea that wopuld benefit so many people, and possibly mean others see the same stuff you do.  its truly amazing.

 

and for whoever suggested that i choose to not be hardcore, or i choose not to see the content, thats unfair.

 

myself in particular, I can commit to about 4 nights of raiding a week, for 3-4 hours.  BUT, i LIKE my guild and i like the people in it, so I CHOOSE to ask soe to give us an option to enjoy this content together.  Sue me.

[Leawyn]

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Langaan wrote:

BINGO!! you are trying to explain your point yet you've pretty much nailed my point right on the head.

You are right, people who work 40 horus a week get paid twice as much as those who work 20 hours a week,,, BUT, at the end of two weeks, ive worked 40 horus too havent I? so your analogy and opinion wopuld suggest that I only get paid 20 hours even though i owkred 40 in 2 weeks, because i couldnt put the whole 40 hours in a 1 week period like you, the "hardcore" worker.

Now for all you hardcore raiders, can some of you please answer one question... Would this saved option , allowing guilds to "continue" after the lockout, change the content for you?

What it sounds like to me is that some of you realize the content wouldnt change for you, even though some of you keep saying words like "trivialized" which makes no sense, but isnt the real issue here the fact that you dont want to see other people wearing the same fabled stuff as you? and if so, why not?  saved option or not, anyone who can beat the zone/encounter deserves it dont they? or are you all saying that what really constittues a hardcore versus casual player is the amount of time they can put into one day?

im not trying to insult anyone, im really just trying to understand what the real issue is.  how many of you really think casual guilds are going to get geared up as much as and as fast as a hardcore guild, even with the saved option anyway? with the saved option in lets say 3 months ago, it doesnt necassarily mean my guild would be clearing deathtoll by now, but EVEN IF IT DID, we would have cleared it 1 or 2 times for every 5-10 tiems a hardcore guild does.

the "let the casual guilds see the content, just dotn give them loot" idea is crap.  hardcore raiders content wouldnt be changed, its amazing how involved and upset some of you can get when it comes to an idea that wopuld benefit so many people, and possibly mean others see the same stuff you do.  its truly amazing.

and for whoever suggested that i choose to not be hardcore, or i choose not to see the content, thats unfair. myself in particular, I can commit to about 4 nights of raiding a week, for 3-4 hours.  BUT, i LIKE my guild and i like the people in it, so I CHOOSE to ask soe to give us an option to enjoy this content together.  Sue me.

---

You know, putting TOO much space between your sentance is equally as annoying as having one big long paragraph. I took the liberty to edit your post to make it not only shorter, but flow better. Now to answer your questions...

• Now for all you hardcore raiders, can some of you please answer one question... Would this saved option , allowing guilds to "continue" after the lockout, change the content for you? Yes it would, because we would no longer have to wait a week between attempts. What makes you think that hardcore raiders would not also take advantage of the lockout-free instances? Of course we'd go back, day after day, until it was beat. That means that instead of taking a month or two to figure out a zone, it takes a week. Then we move onto the next one. And the next. And the entire EOF expansion would be beat in under a month. There IS a problem with that, because the faster a zone moves to "farm status" the faster the raiders get bored. No one likes seeing the same zone week after week, completing it in a matter of hours. The longer it takes to get there, the longer we will continue to play. Its called progression.
• some of you keep saying words like "trivialized" which makes no sense, but isnt the real issue here the fact that you dont want to see other people wearing the same fabled stuff as you? and if so, why not?  That's exactly it. And the same reason I said before. PROGRESSION! If we put in our 20 hours a week raiding (5 days a week, 4 hours a day, lets say) and are sitting around QH or EFP in exactly the same gear that a part-time raider (10 hour a week, 2-3 days a week, 3-5 hours a day) is wearing, then what is the point of raiding 20 hours a week? There is no longer a gap between hard-core and part-time raiders as far as the reward for the amount of time we put in. I am not oblivious to the fact that part-time raiders want nice gear too. I accept that. But why do part-time raiders insist on having EXACTLY THE SAME as full-time raiders?
• saved option or not, anyone who can beat the zone/encounter deserves it dont they? Of course, no one is debating that. But while it wouldn't take long for a full-time raid guild to accomplish clearing a zone if there were saves, it also wouldn't take long for a part-time guild either. Instead of being a few months between the full-time guild completing an instance and a part-time, it would now be only a few weeks. Again, progression is completely demolished and any point of rushing to finish anything is compltely moot. Because anyone can take 3 hours in an instance, and say "hey man, we can just save it and come back tomorrow, fully repaired and fresh, and start just where we left off." No way! I'd rather PROGRESS, as in: Last week we got to Corsolander before we ran out of time/gave up. This week we got all the way to Vyemm and even got a few pulls in! We've really made PROGRESS in labs! That feels alot better than: Yesterday we got to Corsolander, but today we zoned into the same instance and finally killed him then got to Vyemm and even got a few pulls in!
• or are you all saying that what really constittues a hardcore versus casual player is the amount of time they can put into one day? Yeah... if you can't finish Labs in 3 hours this week, maybe you can next week. I don't see any reason for you to get a "do over" because you're incapable of finishing a zone in the alloted amount of time for your raids. You PROGRESS by getting farther in the zone each time you go.

[Lotusd]

PLEASE keep this thread on topic and clean so it doesn't get locked.

 

I'd like to discuss more ideas about the saved raid zone topic with ideas that will address the hardcore raiders issues.

 

Best idea I have at this point is this:

 

1 - lock-out timers stay as they are.

2 - at the END of the lock-out timer, the guild has the option to start a new zone, OR continue the previous saved instance.

 

- this gives casual guilds the ability to progress through content without being limited by time, and at the same time it won't result in hardcore raid guilds being able to start a zone, then camp and pull the boss for 8 hours straight the next day.

 

as far as I can tell, this addresses the hardcore raiders problem with content being made "easier" or "dumbed down".

Langaan Evonsway, 70 TemplarGuild Leader - Dread@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@ @@@@@

I'm Sorry But I that is about the Dumbest Idea I've ever heard of.That would totally take out the risk/reward equation from the game, if your guild doesnt have time for the zone either dont bother or find another guild that has like mindsets and finish the zone.

Message Edited by Lotusd on 12-08-200601:41 PM

Message Edited by Lotusd on 12-08-2006 01:42 PM

[Gaige]

Working 40 hours in two weeks you still get paid less than someone who works 40 hours in one week, as far as weekly pay goes.  So your analogy still fails.

You get out of the game what you put into it.  If you can't beat a name and progress farther into the zone, you try next week until you can.  With things like menders and repair kits its way easier now than it used to be.

No one is entitled to anything in this game, the only guarantee is that you can access it.

[pagit21]

I don't recall who said it but they are right.  In the end if you are incapable of taking out the boss mob it >may< hurt you more to skip the easier named in the zone.  The degree to which gear helps definitely varies from guild to guild.  In kos many guilds could clear instances still wearing previous tier fabled while other guilds had to gear up, but in your case gearing up might be more of a benefit than slamming your head against a wall night after night with no gear to show for it.  You being more casual, you might find your people less tolerant of the head to wall interaction.  I am not trying to stereotype more casual players either but it is something you should consider.

 

Confidence is the memory of your success, and if you have not had a good deal of success in the past, I'm not sure skipping the rest of the zone is a good idea.  You may find it leads to more frustration in the end when you are unable to succeed.

 

Message Edited by pagit21 on 12-08-2006 02:09 PM

[Langaan]

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pagit21 wrote:

I don't recall who said it but they are right.  In the end if you are incapable of taking out the boss mob it >may< hurt you more to skip the easier named in the zone.  The degree to which gear helps definitely varies from guild to guild.  In kos many guilds could clear instances still wearing previous tier fabled while other guilds had to gear up, but in your case gearing up might be more of a benefit than slamming your head against a wall night after night with no gear to show for it.  You being more casual, you might find your people less tolerant of the head to wall interaction.  I am not trying to stereotype more casual players either but it is something you should consider.

 

Confidence is the memory of your success, and if you have not had a good deal of success in the past, I'm not sure skipping the rest of the zone is a good idea.  You may find it leads to more frustration in the end when you are unable to succeed.

 

Message Edited by pagit21 on 12-08-2006 02:09 PM

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Well I'd just like to add, this weekend we cleared the trash, kept some toons in zone and continued the zone tonight.

until tonight we hadn't killed corsland, and hadnt even tried vyemm / alzid.

but tonight, with a fresh start, no trash, we cleared the zone.  We killed Corsland, vyeem & alzid.

not only that, but asied from a few mem wipe resists while trying to pull vyemm, we killed all three of the above on the first pull.

to be honest, the doom trio and the named b4 corslander has given us more trouble in the past then vyemm did.

[Lariu]

There's valid arguments for and against this idea. Personally I see it like this:

 

1. Guilds who don't raid at a million miles an hour or for stretches of 8 hours at a time will still be able to explore the deepest areas of the hardest raid zones (eventually). Those guilds who have raided Halls of Seeing, eventually clearing all the roamers and killing the bloodbeast only to wipe to venekor or some roamer they completely forgot about, look at the clock and see they have to go to work in 4 hours, probably feel this is a good idea.

 

2. The value of completing these instances in a speedy and organised manner would obviously be reduced - as even those unable to do this could potentially reap the rewards. However, this is quite a selfish and pointless complaint - concentrate on your own guild, not other peoples. AND if you guys are able to clear these zones quickly, you'll still be raiding twice as many zones as the slower guilds - therefore getting more reward.

 

A problem I see with this is, what if not everyone who was in the original raid logs in for the follow up? What if not everyone logs in at the same time? Looking at Inner Sanctum, this would be catastrophic and you'd have to start the instance over very shortly after logging in anyway.

 

But, the fact that the OP mentions not managing to kill Vyemm until last weekend does make me wonder if anything I just said in support has any validity. You only need a tiny bit of organisation to kill Vyemm and the rest of the zone takes about 2 hours max to clear. I suggest you don't even begin to feel tempted to think about maybe possibly going near an EoF raid zone. That's big boy's stuff.

 

Personally I think there's a danger that this will reduce the new very-welcome level of difficulty in EoF raids. Really the only people clearing these instances should be the people who have earned the right to do so. This means organisation, skill, communication, determination and spirit. If you don't have the balls to work out how to do this stuff, you should maybe stick to the p*ss-weak KoS raids.

[Lairdragna]

Gaige, take your Disso-colored glasses off and realize that while every raid zone other than EH can be done in under 2 hours by the top 1% of raid guilds... most guilds will struggle to complete them at all, and when they do it is longer than two hours by and large.  We beat Labs, Lyceum, DT, AOAx4 and we never bothered to do HoS before because we only raid a couple nights a week and prefer to do what we know well.  We're actually making our first crack at HoS tonight, and we will likely beat it... but it will take longer than 2 hours.Now as for the idea of saved raids.  Nope, hate it.  As a casual raider 2-3 nights a week... I think we should either beat the zone at that go around or not.  If we can't, start over until we can get it right.  Then it actually means something.  It took us many months to progress Labs and Lyceum to be able to beat them, less time with DT since we were more experienced and disciplined by then.  The point is, when we beat it, it meant something.  I don't think you should be able to kill a zone by a thousand papercuts and get the rewards.  That's lazy in my opinion.

[Fazzarya]

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Now for all you hardcore raiders, can some of you please answer one question... Would this saved option , allowing guilds to "continue" after the lockout, change the content for you? Yes it would, because we would no longer have to wait a week between attempts. What makes you think that hardcore raiders would not also take advantage of the lockout-free instances?

---

Reading comprehension FTW!

 

The OP is not asking to have the lockout removed. He is simply asking that his raid be able to have an option to start where they left off after their lock out expires and they are able to enter the zone again.

Hardcore guild #1 clears the zone on Monday completely. They get 10 loots.

Casual guild #1 gets through the first two named and then have to quit after reaching the first *save point*. They get 2 loots.

week goes by and lockout timer expires...

Hardcore guild #1 clears the zone completely. They get 10 loots.

Casual guild #1 gets a little better and gets though the next 4 mobs from the first save point to the third save point. They get 4 loots.

week goes by and lockout timer expires...

Hardcore guild #1 clears the zone completely. They get 10 loots.

Casual guild #1 gets through the last 3 named and get some good attempts on the last boss. They get 3 loots.

week goes by and lockout timer expires...

Hardcore guild #1 clears the zone on Monday completely. They get 10 loots.

Casual guild #1 manages to kill the last boss and gets 1 really good loot.

 

So in a 4 week time period, from this particular zone the hardcore guild got 40 loots and the casual guild got 10. Now while I disagree this will fix the feeling of inadequacy that I think actually drives these types of ideas as opposed to actually wanting to see the end game, it is not completely without merit and does not completely kill progression.

Could you imagine applying this to the current class specific gear sets? It would take a casual guild years to get what a hardcore guild could do in 6 months once everything is on farm status. I don't think the idea has a chance in hell of seeing production but I think the manner in which people are jumping on the OP is kind of harsh. It is not that bad of an idea, even though I don't agree with it.

[3C HAVOK]

I think what some people are not understanding is part of beating these zones is the time you put into it, To be able to go in every day and pick up where you left off the night before with better gear, or potions you need or classes you need or what not would hurt the end game for hardcore. Yes you pay $15 just like the rest of us, Saying that does not equate to you getting the same things out of the game i do, the $15 dollars gets you access to the content, If you want to see all of it you need to put the time in to get it, Just cause we pay the same amount of money does not make it so you get what the hard core get handed to you, Either put in the time to get to these mobs or dont, but stop asking for it to be handed to you. If thats the case then i want the Mit of plate armor, I pay the same ammount as a guardian does so i should have that, Oh and pets, i pay the same as summoners so i should have some bad [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] pets too you see where im going with this.

 

     I also thing it would make raid events harder, Take clockworks, the fun of htat zone was figuring out what to do, how long to do it and what to kill. If there are save points we loose stuff like that cause you cant have timed dynamic events like that, its just taunt mob, Heal tank bash mob. Boring if ya ask me.

 

[Langaan]

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3C HAVOK wrote:

 If you want to see all of it you need to put the time in to get it, Just cause we pay the same amount of money does not make it so you get what the hard core get handed to you, Either put in the time to get to these mobs or dont, but stop asking for it to be handed to you.

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Who's asking to see the content without putting the time in? How would things be handed to us?

Let's just clarify something specific here...

My guild at the moment cannot clear labs in under 3 hours, but we can clear it in about 5, without troubles on vyemm etc..A hardcore guild can do the Exact same thing, in less time.  Does this mean the hardcore raiders deserve more?  No it doesnt.  it means hardcore guilds can do it faster, more often etc...

Now, my guild, and im sure there are others, have the classes, talent, know-how to clear the lab.  What we dont have is the time to spend 5hrs plus learning the zone.  Granted, some nights we have gone as long as 5 hours, but real life doesnt allow us to do this regularily.

point is, it is not talent or know how that is preventing us from killing the mobs, because weve done it.

So does the fact that we held the zone open over night to continue the next day & succesfully clear it, get the loot etc..   upset you hardcore raiders?  cause after all, now we are uber like you and are on our way to completely ruining the game for you, right?

Dont forget, there are other things than can abolustley bring raids to a halt.  IE: ld's, etc...

and who are any of you to tell anyone how fast to beat the zone?  maybe, just maybe we would like to sit back, have some fun, take a break every 10 minutes, whatever... wahts the diff?  just because we dont clear it as quickly as you doesnt mean anything other than the fact that you have done it more, know it better, etc...  and again,, all time.

Im not saying all guilds are as talented as some hardcore guilds, thats not my point.

[Leawyn]

If it takes you 5 hours to clear Labs, then schedule it on a Saturday when people can put more time into it.

[Langaan]

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Leawyn wrote:
If it takes you 5 hours to clear Labs, then schedule it on a Saturday when people can put more time into it.

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Can't, the majority of the guild can't raid during the day.  Most of us have children.

[Leawyn]

I didn't say anything about during the day, did I?

[Danan]

There is many guilds out there that have members capable of clearing the raid zones, but dont have the time to commit to 5 hours of learning/clearing. The old T5 zones was really ideal in that they could be done in less than 1 hour and replacements could be brought in for those that had to leave in between instances. Now they made all zones HUGE, making it so that learning takes many hours and for a hardcore raid guild learning the entire zone will take a few weeks, maybe a month or two. But for the more casual guild this takes months and months, just because they cannot commit to the 5 hours + each night, and for them to actually reach content that they need to learn takes up most of their time.

For the Hardcore guilds there is still the contested content that many if not all casual guilds dont even bother with since they are timed and camped by these guilds, imo this is where the hardcore and casual raid guilds are split.

I loved the old T5 instances, they were fast and several could be done in a night, that goes for group and raid zones, time was hardly ever an issue, I wish we would see more like that.

Message Edited by Dananeb on 12-11-2006 10:55 AM

[Langaan]

I'm sorry, let me clarify then...

 

aside from after about 10est time, i cannot play.  There are several of us with the same situation, some with similar situations.

at any rate, i cannot raid before 10:30, and with 3 kids/life i sure as heck cant raid til 3:30 est every weekend.

 

we raid tues/thurs/fri/sat, 3-4 hours, but, after 3 hours we lose about 3-5 people.

 

doesnt matter.  I play the game any chance i get, which is pretty much every night. 

 

Does it matter anyway?  Whats teh difference between runnning lab 3 hours this fri, than conitnueing and clearing it next fri?

whats the difference between that and raiding for 5 hrs on saturday?  I thought the consensus here was that if we cant clear it in a reasonable amount of time (under 3 hours) then we dont deserve it..

[Langaan]

here's another idea/question that might solve the hardcore raiders issue...

 

In the case where guilds have the option to continue where they left off after the lock-out timer expires, what if such zones also had a Max Time limit per entry?

So, any guild can enter lab one night, raid for .. let's say 4 hours max.  So after 4 hours, a timer is up and you can't continue until after the lock-out timer expires?

does that solve the issue?