Rangers are jipped after revisit

[DarkLegacy2005]

<div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><p>Ok, I have done some parsers, here are my results:</p><p>DPS = Damage per second</p><p>Procs = How many times poison procs (255 dmg)</p><p>Dots = How many times poison dotted (42 dmg)</p><p> </p><p>DPS - Procs - Dots</p><p>__________</p><p>LIVE</p><p>179  - 4 - 6  *HYBRID</p><p>214 - 8 - 7  *PURE RANGED</p><p>407 - 4 - 4  *PURE RANGED</p><p>109 - 2 - 4  *PURE MELEE</p><p>167 - 4 - 6  *HYBRID</p><p>1602 - 7 -  6   *PURE RANGED  <NOTE> This was within 2 seconds</p><p>______________</p><p>BETA</p><p>102 - 2 - 5  *PURE MELEE</p><p>167 - 3 - 5  *CLOSE TO PURE RANGED</p><p>109 - 2 - 2  *PURE MELEE</p><p>131 - 2 - 5  *CLOSE TO PURE RANGED</p><p>151 - 3 - 5   *CLOSE TO PURE RANGED</p><p> </p><p> </p><div>Here are the figures for the average percentage of my damage poison contributed:</div><div> </div><div>Live: 44.2%</div><div>Beta: 26.33%</div><div> </div><div>About a 20% decrease right there.</div><div> </div><div>Here are the figures for average DPS of the two examples:</div><div> </div><div>Live: 446.333 ( 215.2 if you ignore the outlier 1602)</div><div> </div><div>Beta: 110</div><div> </div><div>With these numbers in front of me... I would like to retract my opinion that we are fine. And this would explain why at lower levels it doesnt make much of a difference. The HP disparity amongst higher levels must make it more noticable. Also, only on live did I kill anything with ranged before it got a strike in(1602 DPS).</div><p>EDIT: These were Parses taken by a 32 ranger against level 33 Wasps in EL, no arrow adjustments</p><p>Message Edited by DarkLegacy2005 on <span class="date_text">02-20-2006</span><span class="time_text">10:27 PM</span></p><p>Message Edited by DarkLegacy2005 on <span class="date_text">02-20-2006</span><span class="time_text">10:28 PM</span></p><p>Message Edited by DarkLegacy2005 on <span class="date_text">02-20-2006</span><span class="time_text">10:30 PM</span></p>

[Fennir]

I can rest easy now knowing I can take at least one mob in EL.Which one, btw, so I know where to get my xp?Grats on an extensive informative test!<div></div>

[TwistedFaith]

<blockquote><hr>DarkLegacy2005 wrote:I played my ranger on Beta, then played it on normal servers... I fought the same, read that well, the SAME mob. I made an effort to find the same level, same arrows mob in EL. On the normal server, it dropped a little faster, but nothing serious. Just a few seconds faster.So can I still solo... yes.Can I still duel my brother's wizard to the same degree... yes.Did my DPS drop?... yesDoes it make a noticable difference... yesDoes it hurt my ability to play as a ranger... noDo I still compete amongst the top tier... yesOverall, I think this change was for the better. We all knew the Ranger class just dished out way too much damage and it was inevitable that a nerf was on the way. This nerf seems to be of the perfect dosage, and I applaud the Dev's decision to implement it.<hr></blockquote>Weird as my experience was the opposite, but we'll see when the expansion hits I guess.Though the figures the 70 ranger with masters posted were VERY scary.Out of iterest what lvl mobs did u try? I tried everything from 60-65 (solo and heroic)

[DarkLegacy2005]

I am only level 32... stopped playing when I heard PvP was coming out on new servers. Couldnt bring myself to keep working on a char when I knew i was going to just start over. It was the giant wasps in EL, and those werent the only ones I was fighting though. I had no troubles what so ever and those figures that the people posted are far from true. There is no way there is a 50% loss in effective damage output. If that were the case I would have surely died when 4 of them agroed me.

[TwistedFaith]

<blockquote><hr>DarkLegacy2005 wrote:I am only level 32... stopped playing when I heard PvP was coming out on new servers. Couldnt bring myself to keep working on a char when I knew i was going to just start over. It was the giant wasps in EL, and those werent the only ones I was fighting though. I had no troubles what so ever and those figures that the people posted are far from true. There is no way there is a 50% loss in effective damage output. If that were the case I would have surely died when 4 of them agroed me.<hr></blockquote>Well like I said I only tested the 57-65 content and well yeah it was a nightmare.I opening using a high dmg bow attack and it wasnt putting a dent in the mobs health. The mobs was then on me and just pounded the crap into me.Snares are useless as even though they slow the mob, they still end up catching u before u can get a bow shot off. Mob speed seems drastically increased.We also cant kite anymore due to some choice nerfs from SoE due to PvP so basically we rely on our crap melee skills. If I wanted to melee i'd role a melee style class not a ranged class.

[Fennir]

<div></div>give it a rest valleyboyobviously being able to kill one mob in EL means rangers cant possibly be broken in betaWHY ARE U EVEN ARGUING<div></div><p>Message Edited by Fennir on <span class="date_text">02-20-2006</span><span class="time_text">03:45 PM</span></p>

[DarkLegacy2005]

Fennir Said-I can rest easy now knowing I can take at least one mob in EL.Which one, btw, so I know where to get my xp?Grats on an extensive informative test!--Didnt plan on it being intensive. I fully intended on having a parser up and running but for some god awful reason it took 14 hours to update Beta and the same amount of time for live... Edit: Which made me able to play at about 12 midnight, not the best time for a test.I will do a true parser tonight though, expect a post ~9 - 10PM central time.<p>Message Edited by DarkLegacy2005 on <span class="date_text">02-20-2006</span><span class="time_text">02:54 PM</span></p>

[Niuan]

<div></div>Yes rangers are doing great in beta... believe it or not.  Mostly due to the new Proccing poison that interesting enough is for thier trousers... Name of new common poison you say??  Astroglide.

[DarkLegacy2005]

Fennir Said-give it a rest valleyboyobviously being able to kill one mob in EL means rangers cant possibly be broken in betaWHY ARE U EVEN ARGUING----Thats exactly what I dont want. If you want to sit here and belittle the posts then be my guest. He obviously tested the higher range mobs, and as sad as this fact may be, not everyone is level 50 - 70, which includes rangers.The fact that I didnt notice a difference where he noticed a grand difference might bring up the question of it not being a ranger problem but moreso of a level problem. Perhaps the CA's and poisons of his level are not adequate for their level range.

[TwistedFaith]

<blockquote><hr>DarkLegacy2005 wrote:Fennir Said-give it a rest valleyboyobviously being able to kill one mob in EL means rangers cant possibly be broken in betaWHY ARE U EVEN ARGUING----Thats exactly what I dont want. If you want to sit here and belittle the posts then be my guest. He obviously tested the higher range mobs, and as sad as this fact may be, not everyone is level 50 - 70, which includes rangers.The fact that I didnt notice a difference where he noticed a grand difference might bring up the question of it not being a ranger problem but moreso of a level problem. Perhaps the CA's and poisons of his level are not adequate for their level range.<hr></blockquote>Yeah i'm not going to knock anyone who has actually been on beta and tested stuff.Like you said maybe the mob lvl makes a difference. Did you notice a increase in mob speed? For me that was glaringly obvious, mobs were in my face after the first shot.

[DarkLegacy2005]

Actually I did notice that but I shrugged it off as being just me being closer to the mob. I used to get 2 - 3 CA's off before they were there in my face and while on Beta I never got more then 2.

[Fennir]

<div><span><blockquote><hr>DarkLegacy2005 wrote:If you want to sit here and belittle the posts then be my guest.<hr></blockquote>It's like you don't even understand why.You killed one mob in EL then made a post saying rangers are not jipped and i applaud the devs etc.What did you expect?  No one to question your testing or conclusion-drawing abilities? lol</span></div>

[DarkLegacy2005]

Yes, I killed only one mob.... /sarcasm offIt was an example. I fought other mobs beside that one, but I made that one the mark for it.Edit: On a side note, I do happen to notice that a lot of your comments among the boards are borderline flaming, so please dont bring that here<p>Message Edited by DarkLegacy2005 on <span class="date_text">02-20-2006</span><span class="time_text">03:13 PM</span></p>

[Fennir]

I'm not flaming you.  I'm questioning your expert diagnosis.<div></div>

[DarkLegacy2005]

<blockquote><hr>Fennir wrote:I'm not flaming you.  I'm questioning your expert diagnosis.<div></div><hr></blockquote>Please post where I claimed to be an expert? I would like you to quote it.Although it might be easier if I asked you to quote where I posted a opinion... seeing as how thats what it is. The views and parsers of one character do not accurately represent the whole population but the fact that one character is not affected by a nerf where as another is DRASTICALLY affected by a nerf does bring questions to mind. Questions such as why? Or under what circumstances? Those are questions that should be brought up and speculated, not whether or not I am an 'expert'.

[Fennir]

Glad we got that cleared up.<div></div>

[Niuan]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>DarkLegacy2005 wrote:<blockquote><hr>Fennir wrote:I'm not flaming you.  I'm questioning your expert diagnosis.<div></div><hr></blockquote>Please post where I claimed to be an expert? I would like you to quote it.Although it might be easier if I asked you to quote where I posted a opinion... seeing as how thats what it is. The views and parsers of one character do not accurately represent the whole population but the fact that one character is not affected by a nerf where as another is DRASTICALLY affected by a nerf does bring questions to mind. Questions such as why? Or under what circumstances? Those are questions that should be brought up and speculated, not whether or not I am an 'expert'.<hr></blockquote><p>I appreciate your attempt to show light where currently there is none...  But the ranger boards have a bunch of different parses with different targets outlining the beta changes.  Several Raid targets, single encounters, etc.</p><p>so far the "beta not so bad" team has 1 and I have seen at least 3 parses of folks with detailed information that overwhelminingly shows gloom....</p><p>The majority of rangers will give the changes an honest try before getting the sour [Removed for Content] effect... Some may even volenteer to beta test live some more.. who knows.</p>

[DarkLegacy2005]

Either way, I think a constructive way of helping the devs would be to post your experiences in the form of parsers or explain encounters under the beta/test environment and then under the normal environment(if possible) so as to better fine tune where the problem is.Obviously if a level 32 ranger has no drastically and class breaking difference when a tier 6 or 7 ranger does have these differences then the problem is not confined to a class, but more to a situation/level range.And this fact is not just apparent in this thread. Even in other threads there are posts saying there is a 50% drop and others stating there is ~20% drop. That disparity leads me to believe that this problem is situational.Maybe if the Dev's see that x% of rangers in tier 5+ cant compete, they will find the root of the problem, as an example.

[DarkLegacy2005]

<blockquote><hr>Niuan wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr>DarkLegacy2005 wrote:<blockquote><hr>Fennir wrote:I'm not flaming you.  I'm questioning your expert diagnosis.<div></div><hr></blockquote>Please post where I claimed to be an expert? I would like you to quote it.Although it might be easier if I asked you to quote where I posted a opinion... seeing as how thats what it is. The views and parsers of one character do not accurately represent the whole population but the fact that one character is not affected by a nerf where as another is DRASTICALLY affected by a nerf does bring questions to mind. Questions such as why? Or under what circumstances? Those are questions that should be brought up and speculated, not whether or not I am an 'expert'.<hr></blockquote><p>I appreciate your attempt to show light where currently there is none...  But the ranger boards have a bunch of different parses with different targets outlining the beta changes.  Several Raid targets, single encounters, etc.</p><p>so far the "beta not so bad" team has 1 and I have seen at least 3 parses of folks with detailed information that overwhelminingly shows gloom....</p><p>The majority of rangers will give the changes an honest try before getting the sour [Removed for Content] effect... Some may even volenteer to beta test live some more.. who knows.</p><hr></blockquote>The fact that its against raid targets makes me think that maybe this class breaking is going on in the higher levels. I started a ranger on beta while waiting for my main to be copied over and didnt notice any problem keeping up in damage and going above and beyond. I got to about level 12 if anyone of you must know.Edit: Fennir, gratz on post #1000<p>Message Edited by DarkLegacy2005 on <span class="date_text">02-20-2006</span><span class="time_text">03:30 PM</span></p>

[Cuz]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>DarkLegacy2005 wrote:<blockquote><hr>Fennir wrote:I'm not flaming you.  I'm questioning your expert diagnosis.<div></div><hr></blockquote>Please post where I claimed to be an expert? I would like you to quote it.Although it might be easier if I asked you to quote where I posted a opinion... seeing as how thats what it is. The views and parsers of one character do not accurately represent the whole population but the fact that one character is not affected by a nerf where as another is DRASTICALLY affected by a nerf does bring questions to mind. Questions such as why? Or under what circumstances? Those are questions that should be brought up and speculated, not whether or not I am an 'expert'.<hr></blockquote>Let this be a lesson to you. Your opinion only matters if it's doom and gloom.

[Niuan]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>DarkLegacy2005 wrote:And this fact is not just apparent in this thread. Even in other threads there are posts saying there is a 50% drop and others stating there is ~20% drop. That disparity leads me to believe that this problem is situational.<hr></blockquote><p>Aye the effects of the change will be situational...  Alot of rangers do not know how to maximise damage potential by using the game mechanics to thier favor.  I.E. Long delay bow... which poisons to use... Which poisons stack.. etc.   I see level 50 rangers today on live that use short bows...  Some give a long pause after I mention we can use poisons, like they never heard of it.</p><p>For the above types of people they may only see a 20 percent loss.   For the folks that know the game mechanics this will greatly effect damage potential.  Dare I say Drasticly alter everything about the ranger class.</p>

[DarkLegacy2005]

<blockquote><hr>Niuan wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr>DarkLegacy2005 wrote:And this fact is not just apparent in this thread. Even in other threads there are posts saying there is a 50% drop and others stating there is ~20% drop. That disparity leads me to believe that this problem is situational.<hr></blockquote><p>Aye the effects of the change will be situational...  Alot of rangers do not know how to maximise damage potential by using the game mechanics to thier favor.  I.E. Long delay bow... which poisons to use... Which poisons stack.. etc.   I see level 50 rangers today on live that use short bows...  Some give a long pause after I mention we can use poisons, like they never heard of it.</p><p>For the above types of people they may only see a 20 percent loss.   For the folks that know the game mechanics this will greatly effect damage potential.  Dare I say Drasticly alter everything about the ranger class.</p><hr></blockquote>I find that a little off beat considering every other ranger I have grouped with I have at the very least been on par with them or better so to say that the above reason is why I only see a small decrease is, quite frankly, insulting.On the other hand, that exploitation(mind you I use the word in a non derrogatory sense) of the system should not yield drastically different results in how someone's DPS comes out. When I mean drastically I mean 30 - 40% difference.That is to say that at x level one ranger gets 1000 dps while another ranger of the same level gets 1400 - 2000 dps?<p>Message Edited by DarkLegacy2005 on <span class="date_text">02-20-2006</span><span class="time_text">04:31 PM</span></p>

[Fennir]

<font size="4"><b>without further ado.... the other side of the coin:</b></font><span><blockquote><hr>AfflictedOne wrote:<blockquote>Damage is really bad.  Did a T7 raid last nice while at L70 with all T7 combat arts at M1 level.  No AA's and was about 60 strenght from the cap of 510.  My best parse was in the 600's and I was going full burn almost every fight.  That puts us at about low T3 damage.  Was constantly outdps'd by brigands,swashies, and necros.  And was even outdps'd on quite a few (more than half) by bruiser, sk, and guardian.  Pretty much the only classes I was consistant in beating were priests. This was going full out. I'm gonna assume that I may have broken 700 dps on a few fights if I had 510 str but without proc from strength ring or strength buff this is going to take fairly specific group setup.  From this raid can say that one of the winners in T7 was necro.  Pretty much every fight he parsed over 1200 which was a big increase over T6 numbers.  Have not seen parse from assassin or warlock but thinking that assassin is going to be doing as much or more than we were before the changes seeing as how swashbuckler/brigand are pretty much the same or better than they were in T6. We are also one of the biggest power hogs in the game again.  Basically we went back to exactly the same place we were before the combat revamp.</blockquote><hr></blockquote></span><div></div>

[Carna]

<div></div><p>It's outrageous to continually do that to different groups of players every couple of patches. You chaps really have my sympathy. The devs should be ashamed of themselves.</p><p>Those apologising for the devs each time they take a sledgehammer to a class need to get a clue. It wrecks the game because it's continual, on going and in the back of your mind you know it's going to impact you sooner or later.</p>

[DarkLegacy2005]

<blockquote><hr>Fennir wrote:<font size="4"><b>without further ado.... the other side of the coin:</b></font><span><blockquote><hr>AfflictedOne wrote:<blockquote>Damage is really bad.  Did a T7 raid last nice while at L70 with all T7 combat arts at M1 level.  No AA's and was about 60 strenght from the cap of 510.  My best parse was in the 600's and I was going full burn almost every fight.  That puts us at about low T3 damage.  Was constantly outdps'd by brigands,swashies, and necros.  And was even outdps'd on quite a few (more than half) by bruiser, sk, and guardian.  Pretty much the only classes I was consistant in beating were priests. This was going full out. I'm gonna assume that I may have broken 700 dps on a few fights if I had 510 str but without proc from strength ring or strength buff this is going to take fairly specific group setup.  From this raid can say that one of the winners in T7 was necro.  Pretty much every fight he parsed over 1200 which was a big increase over T6 numbers.  Have not seen parse from assassin or warlock but thinking that assassin is going to be doing as much or more than we were before the changes seeing as how swashbuckler/brigand are pretty much the same or better than they were in T6. We are also one of the biggest power hogs in the game again.  Basically we went back to exactly the same place we were before the combat revamp.</blockquote><hr></blockquote></span><div></div><hr></blockquote>That my friend, is fubared.Edit: If thats true, then something needs to be looked at<p>Message Edited by DarkLegacy2005 on <span class="date_text">02-20-2006</span><span class="time_text">07:26 PM</span></p>Edit: Im still of the mindset that its something going on in the later levels, earlier levels dont show much difference imho.<p>Message Edited by DarkLegacy2005 on <span class="date_text">02-20-2006</span><span class="time_text">07:30 PM</span></p>

[TalenMorg]

<div></div><div><span><blockquote><hr>DarkLegacy2005 wrote:<blockquote><hr>Fennir wrote:<font size="4"><b>without further ado.... the other side of the coin:</b></font><span><blockquote><hr>AfflictedOne wrote:<blockquote>Damage is really bad.  Did a T7 raid last nice while at L70 with all T7 combat arts at M1 level.  No AA's and was about 60 strenght from the cap of 510.  My best parse was in the 600's and I was going full burn almost every fight.  That puts us at about low T3 damage.  Was constantly outdps'd by brigands,swashies, and necros.  And was even outdps'd on quite a few (more than half) by bruiser, sk, and guardian.  Pretty much the only classes I was consistant in beating were priests. This was going full out. I'm gonna assume that I may have broken 700 dps on a few fights if I had 510 str but without proc from strength ring or strength buff this is going to take fairly specific group setup.  From this raid can say that one of the winners in T7 was necro.  Pretty much every fight he parsed over 1200 which was a big increase over T6 numbers.  Have not seen parse from assassin or warlock but thinking that assassin is going to be doing as much or more than we were before the changes seeing as how swashbuckler/brigand are pretty much the same or better than they were in T6. We are also one of the biggest power hogs in the game again.  Basically we went back to exactly the same place we were before the combat revamp.</blockquote><hr></blockquote></span><div></div><hr></blockquote>That my friend, is fubared.Edit: If thats true, then something needs to be looked at<p>Message Edited by DarkLegacy2005 on <span class="date_text">02-20-2006</span><span class="time_text">07:26 PM</span></p>Edit: Im still of the mindset that its something going on in the later levels, earlier levels dont show much difference imho.<p>Message Edited by DarkLegacy2005 on <span class="date_text">02-20-2006</span><span class="time_text">07:30 PM</span></p><hr></blockquote>One thing going on in later lvls is mobs have much higher hit points and take much longer to kill.....and I highly doubt the devs will do much looking as they have no clue about our class.....Ask Blackguard how much of our damage is dependant on poison....he might get it right this time.</span></div><p>Message Edited by TalenMorgan on <span class="date_text">02-20-2006</span><span class="time_text">06:23 PM</span></p>

[DarkLegacy2005]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>TalenMorgan wrote:<div></div><div><span>One thing going on in later lvls is mobs have much higher hit points and take much longer to kill.....and I highly doubt the devs will do much looking as they have no clue about our class.....Ask Blackguard how much of our damage is dependant on poison....he might get it right this time.</span></div><p>Message Edited by TalenMorgan on <span class="date_text">02-20-2006</span><span class="time_text">06:23 PM</span></p><hr></blockquote>Ya I saw his comment and it made me worry and speculate. I worried that maybe they are doing something without considering the wide range of effects and I speculate that maybe the Ranger class has become something other then what they envisioned. From his post I believe he meant that rangers damage should be less then 50% from procs, but it could be read other ways.

[DarkLegacy2005]

<div></div><div></div><p>Ok, I have done some parsers, here are my results:</p><p>DPS = Damage per second</p><p>Procs = How many times poison procs</p><p>Dots = How many times poison dotted</p><p> </p><p>DPS - Procs - Dots</p><p>__________</p><p>LIVE</p><p>179  - 4 - 6  *HYBRID</p><p>214 - 8 - 7  *PURE RANGED</p><p>407 - 4 - 4  *PURE RANGED</p><p>109 - 2 - 4  *PURE MELEE</p><p>167 - 4 - 6  *HYBRID</p><p>1602 - 7 -  6   *PURE RANGED  <NOTE> This was within 2 seconds</p><p>______________</p><p>BETA</p><p>102 - 2 - 5  *PURE MELEE</p><p>167 - 3 - 5  *CLOSE TO PURE RANGED</p><p>109 - 2 - 2  *PURE MELEE</p><p>131 - 2 - 5  *CLOSE TO PURE RANGED</p><p>151 - 3 - 5   *CLOSE TO PURE RANGED</p><p> </p><p> </p><p>Be back in a few with percentages of damage dealt by poison in Beta vs Live... but right now its about</p><p>Live: 40 - 80%</p><p>Beta: 25 - 50%</p><p> </p><p>EDIT: These were Parses taken by a 32 ranger against level 33 Wasps in EL, no arrow adjustments</p><p>Message Edited by DarkLegacy2005 on <span class="date_text">02-20-2006</span><span class="time_text">10:11 PM</span></p>

[DarkLegacy2005]

<div>Here are the figures for the average percentage of my damage poison contributed:</div><div> </div><div>Live: 44.2%</div><div>Beta: 26.33%</div><div> </div><div>About a 20% decrease right there.</div><div> </div><div>Here are the figures for average DPS of the two examples:</div><div> </div><div>Live: 446.333 ( 215.2 if you ignore the outlier 1602)</div><div> </div><div>Beta: 110</div><div> </div><div>With these numbers in front of me... I would like to retract my opinion that we are fine. And this would explain why at lower levels it doesnt make much of a difference. The HP disparity amongst higher levels must make it more noticable. Also, only on live did I kill anything with ranged before it got a strike in(1602 DPS).</div>

[Fennir]

Now that you've edited, my sarcastic posts don't make any sense.=(<div></div>

[DarkLegacy2005]

<div></div>they are still there in quotes, those that read will find it. I think I didnt notice a disparity though because the mobs werent all that high on HP and so it was only a few seconds difference between fights. But that drop in DPS is about 40 - 75%.

[klepp]

<div></div><p>finest example of soe catering to whiners and messing with things and messing them up....</p><p>is why i quit the first time.. and there was no nerf to my class....</p>

[Niuan]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>DarkLegacy2005 wrote:<blockquote><p>I find that a little off beat considering every other ranger I have grouped with I have at the very least been on par with them or better so to say that the above reason is why I only see a small decrease is, quite frankly, insulting.On the other hand, that exploitation(mind you I use the word in a non derrogatory sense) of the system should not yield drastically different results in how someone's DPS comes out. When I mean drastically I mean 30 - 40% difference.That is to say that at x level one ranger gets 1000 dps while another ranger of the same level gets 1400 - 2000 dps?</p></blockquote><p>Message Edited by DarkLegacy2005 on <span class="date_text">02-20-2006</span><span class="time_text">04:31 PM</span></p><hr></blockquote><p>Sorry I did not mean to insult you that was not my intent.   I am a firm believer that there is no "wrong" way to play your ranger.  Just that the way I play my ranger will see a big difference in dps loss...</p><p>Yes two rangers at the same level can varry significantly based on gear, poisons, CA spell levels I.E masters more so than anyother class in EQ.</p>