Current State of the Assassin

[Kokus]

so old... why is this post still stickied?  created back when DoF came out <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Jakr]

<div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><font color="#ccffff">very nice post elv</font><font color="#ccffff"> </font> <font color="#ccffff"> </font><font color="#ccffff"> </font><font color="#ccffff"> Alright onto  proc buffs.  </font><font color="#ccffff"> </font> <font color="#ccffff"> </font><font color="#ccffff"> Lets take a  wild assumption and say The assassin  offensive stance proc  was actualy  workin as  intended. and trust me as first hand , it is not.  this ability  during 1 hour of parsing with the buff running  the whole time through proced  an astounding 26 times.....</font><font color="#ccffff"> </font><font color="#ccffff"> yes</font><font color="#ccffff">  </font><font color="#66ff00"><b>26 times in an hour.</b></font><font color="#ccffff"> the odds of this happening are so slim to none it cannot  be working as intended.</font><font color="#ccffff"> </font><font color="#ccffff">  ( if i had the original parse id post it. sadly i did not save it.)</font><font color="#ccffff"> </font> <font color="#ccffff"> </font><font color="#ccffff"> the ranger  buff in an hour will proc .....7 times  for every 10 shots taken on average.  the math for figuring this out will be explained ina  bit. but  moving on..</font><font color="#ccffff"> </font> <font color="#ccffff"> </font> <font color="#ccffff"> </font><font color="#ccffff"> lets do a bit of comparing with our counterpart  Ranger</font><font color="#ccffff"> </font> <font color="#ccffff"> </font><font color="#ccffff"> Ranger Offensive stance adept 1</font><font color="#ccffff"> </font> <font color="#ccffff"> </font> <font color="#6633ff"><b><u>Archers Frenzy</u></b></font><font color="#ccffff"> </font> <font color="#ccffff"> </font> <ul> <li><font color="#ccffff">On Successful ranged attack this spell has a  </font><font color="#ccffff"><b><font color="#6633ff">30%</font> </b></font><font color="#ccffff">chance to cast Quick shot on target of attack.</font></li> <li><font color="#ccffff">Inflicts</font><font color="#ccffff"> </font><font color="#6633ff"><b>432</b></font><font color="#6633ff"> </font><font color="#ccffff">Melee damage on target.</font></li> <li><font color="#ccffff">Decreases Defense of Caster  by 17.7</font></li> <li><font color="#ccffff">Increases Slashing,Peircing,</font><font color="#ccffff"><i>Crushing.......</i></font><font color="#ccffff">and Ranged of caster by 32</font></li> </ul> <font color="#ccffff"> </font> <font color="#ccffff"> </font><font color="#ccffff"> Alright now the assassin's  Offensive stance at adept 1.</font><font color="#ccffff"> </font> <font color="#ccffff"> </font> <font color="#996600"><u><b>Whirling Blades</b></u></font><font color="#ccffff"> </font> <ul> <li><font color="#ccffff"> On Successful Melee attack thsi spell has a </font><font color="#996600"><b>10%</b></font><font color="#ccffff"> chance to cast Swipe on target of attack.</font></li> <li><font color="#ccffff"> Inflicts</font><font color="#ccffff"> </font><font color="#996600"><b>251-418</b></font><font color="#ccffff"><font color="#996600"> </font>Melee damage on target.</font></li> <li><font color="#ccffff"> Decreases Defense of Caster by 17.7</font></li> <li><font color="#ccffff"> increeases Slashing,Peircing,</font><font color="#ccffff"><i>Crushing</i></font><font color="#ccffff">....and Ranged of caster by 32</font></li> </ul><font color="#ccffff"> k time for to mention a few things.</font><font color="#ccffff"> </font> <font color="#ccffff"> </font><font color="#ccffff"> Procs do not  proc for the listed  %  they never  have. </font><font color="#ccffff"> </font> <font color="#ccffff"> </font><font color="#ccffff"> To find a  procs  actual  rate you follow this formula (weapon delay/3) x proc % = proc rate</font><font color="#ccffff"> </font><font color="#ccffff"> ex. Prismatic Swiftblade = (1.2/3) x 7 = 2.8% actual proc rate.</font><font color="#ccffff"> </font> <font color="#ccffff"> </font><font color="#ccffff"> so lets take a few normal weapons and figure this out.</font><font color="#ccffff"> </font><font color="#ccffff"> 1.5 spd 1.7 spd and 2.4 spd weapons for an assassin  on our Offensive buff  come out to</font><font color="#ccffff"> </font> <font color="#996600"><b>5%....5.66%....and  8% actual proc rate.</b></font><font color="#ccffff"> </font> <font color="#ccffff"> </font><font color="#ccffff"> Now we take the ranger buff and apply it to a long bow  7spd and  shortbow  4.5 spd</font><font color="#ccffff"> </font> <font color="#ccffff"><b><font color="#6633ff">70%.... and  45% actual proc rate.</font> </b></font><font color="#ccffff">Another thing to note is the damage. our proc does  less damage and has a  damage  range.</font><font color="#ccffff"> </font><font color="#ccffff"> Their  proc  will  </font><font color="#66ff00"><b>ALWAYS</b></font><font color="#ccffff">  yeild much much more dps.</font><font color="#ccffff"> </font> <font color="#ccffff"><span class="date_text"></span></font><font color="#ccffff"><span class="time_text"> </span></font><font color="#ccffff"> </font> <font color="#ccffff">Ok keeping in mind  that our buff is not working right. if our Buff worked  as intended  their proc will still work  almost  10 fold more often then ours would... </font><font color="#ccffff"> </font><font color="#ccffff"> SOE's  reasoning behind this is probably  that bows have a shorter Delay thus why they have given  them a much larger proc rate. But  as this formula  clearly shows this logic  does not hold  true.  so why did they give them  a better proc.?  who knows..... Bows attack slow.  we all use them we all know. and do to the nerf of the assassins  haste buffs  we will attack so slow under our own power  it feels like we are using a bow in the firstplace.  rangers still get haste. making their proc  yet even more usefull. Rangers also have multiple  ranged abilities that strike  the  target  1-3 times in a  single shot.  and as we all know abilities like this are just Fodder for procs.  in a single  shot a ranger can do astounding damage. for reference  lets say a  ranger has 2 proc weapon dulies and proc bow and everything lands 300/500/800 damage arrow <b>+Procs</b> 100-400 damage weapon proc 100-400 damage weapon proc 100-400 damage weapon proc 430 damage buff 300 damage poison   50 damage poison <b>x3</b> whew yes thats alot of damage on a  1 minute recast.......  awsome!  /sigh </font><font color="#ccffff"> </font> <font color="#ccffff"> </font><p><font color="#ccffff"><span class="time_text"> This is  highly  overpowering. The assassin  proc buff would need to be Raised in % chance to proc  AND  be fixed as is its not even working  correctly. this is just me  talking about 1 of our abilities . pls fix do not make me have to post  every single thing soe. i do not have the time nor the patience to list off everysingle thing i spent a month telling you was  broken and/or etc  to have things end up like this in the end </span></font></p> <p><font color="#ccffff"><span class="time_text">assassin dps is  is not teir 1 dps as  you wanna tell us it is.  your numbers  are wrong.  watch us  first hand  and you will know the true dps of an assassin. we are teir3 maybe 2 at best when assassinate's  15 minute timer is up. </span></font></p> <p><font color="#ccffff"><span class="time_text">to  restore us to  teir was dps where we belong and were promised our timers need to be looked at. our broken abilities need to be looked at and our damage on our INSANE long timer abilties needs ot be looked at.  i have bugged every single thing posted here. i have  feedbacked every single thing posted here. includding this proc buff not working for over a month. its time things change and you listen to the community. </span></font></p> <p><font color="#ccffff"><span class="time_text"> </span></font></p> <p><font color="#ccffff"><span class="time_text">o and why give predators  <i>CRUSHING</i>  skill in our buffs?  come on now...... </span></font></p> <font color="#ccffff"> </font><p><font color="#ccffff"> </font> <font color="#ccffff"><span class="time_text"></span></font></p><p><font color="#ccffff"> </font> <font color="#ccffff"><span class="time_text"></span></font></p><p><font color="#ccffff"> </font><font color="#ccffff"><span class="time_text"></span></font></p><p>Message Edited by Jakron on <span class=date_text>10-10-2005</span> <span class=time_text>12:20 AM</span>

[Darth Rev]

<div></div><div></div><div></div>First off, very excellent post detailing alot of whats wrong with our class. here is where i will add my thoughts while trying to not get too mad while typing them out. RECAST TIMERS - our timers on many of our arts are just TOOOOOO long, gorestrike should be 30 seconds, deathly blade should be 45 seconds, and assassinate should be 5 minutes. before you all jump outa yer seats, or call the guys in the white coats to take me away let me say something. Gorestrike does around as much damage, actually less mind you, than the brigands surprise blow line and thats 30 seconds, but gorestrike requires stealth and position, whereas surprise blow requires neither of these. To me that would seem a fair adjustment since you all SAID we were supposed to be tier1 dps right? Deathly blow, there is no excuse for how long that timer is, with 285str my deathly blow does 1885-3139 dmg on a FIVE minute timer, that means maybe once every 3 pulls tops. I have two comparisions for this, 1.) ice comet... 45 sec cast, 5500 dmg.... uhh ya that seems fair to me... 2.) Hurricane.... nuff said, how can you even THINK deathly blade is a more powerful ability thus a longer timer than 3 minute hurricane... plz explain this one to me... really... Ok and 1 more thing, wizards too get surging tempest, 2k-3500 at app1 with a dot and a proc... 1 minute recast....? how is this even close to anything we got and we are supposed to be same tier. Yes i believe wizards should be doing more dps than us, but... thats ridiculous AE's - yes this was covered but i have to just add again and stress how insanely useless these are with positional/stealth requirements and 2-3 second casting times which seem like an eternity Offensive stance - i'll wait for someone to post on this with actual data, i do recall someone with official sounding numbers on the assassin channel talking about this so i'll wait for them to post. Concealment - great idea.. but IMO the timers on our stealthed attacks need to be lowered before this is of any use. On an average fight im using mask of night with punchblade, deathly blade is already down cuz of ridiculous(i say again ridiculous) 5 minute timer and assassinate on the 15 min is usually down as well. This leaves but Gorestrike and the insanely useless Garrote (and sometimes punchblade if it happens to come back up in the process) to be the attacks i use during concealment... wee... maybe if deathly blade wasnt so insanly long recast fitting that in there would be nice. *recent addition bout 2 minutes after post Improvised Weapon line - so useless its not even funny, the master 2 version does around 500dmg with a 2 second cast time.... waaaaaayyyyy too long, thats as long as shadow assault line of AE's which suck too atm. I can just back up and press my bow autoattack and get a 500-900 regular hit with a good 50% chance to proc something, why would i EVER use this skill? see the quote above for a better use of hotbar space Faltering Blast - just liked stated above... its a waste of 2 arrows, nuff said, this is off my hotbar as well... making um like 5 skills that off my hotbar cuz they reduce my dps and are a waste of resources Anyway these are my thoughts in addition to what was already stated, all in all i can say im supremely disappointed with how the changes were made to us. Everything seemed great in beta, then when going through the gates to live, the nerf bat fell hard and we were broken again, i just dont get how SOE can say that we will be "Tier 1" dps and be so completely and totally not even close to that...it just blows my mind. Kalyr Soon-to-be throwing in the towel assassin of befallen if things dont change, and soon <div></div><p>Message Edited by Darth Revan on <span class=date_text>09-29-2005</span> <span class=time_text>04:17 PM</span>

[Trei]

["... Improvised Weapon line - so useless its not even funny, the master 2 version does around 500dmg with a 2 second cast time.... waaaaaayyyyy too long, thats as long as shadow assault line of AE's which suck too atm. I can just back up and press my bow autoattack and get a 500-900 regular hit with a good 50% chance to proc something, why would i EVER use this skill? see the quote above for a better use of hotbar space  ..."] I found myself agreeing to most of the issues pointed out in this thread, except this one. Why do I use this skill? - it is a ranged attack that doesn't need ammo - it has no minimum range, thus can be used like an extra melee skill - it can be fired on the move All the above means that after I unloaded my two major ranged attacks, I can queue the attack at the same time I am moving back into melee range (or the other way round sometimes, queue it as I am backing out to use my ranged attacks) I love it. But yeah, I too wish that it has a lower cast timer. <div></div>

[prochu]

<P>very nice post and i wish that SOE read it and change things as insidous wound should be initial damage 500 after dot and not how now,ofensive must be 30 % proc rate,lingering blow need moreedamage,garrote.....it need 500 more damage ,AE attacks need less cast or dont hide,assassinate gorestrike deathly blade 50 % less recast</P> <P>with this we could be tier 2 dps or 1 how we should have been at the beggining</P>

[Forsaken_God]

Assassins as they are right now are a horribly broken class. I would also say that assassinate should be something closer to a 1 min timer, and ice comet should be compared to assassinate instead of condeming blade because wizards have a attack that does a average 3000 damage on a lot shorter recaste of 5 mins. My god whats the point of having a skill thats on a 15min timer /sigh.

[Achar]

<DIV>In regards to the AE Combat Arts line, I would like to see the cast time reduced a bit (not much), but having our sneak/shroud broke from mob AE needs to be changed. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Our DPS tier, what do the designers use for a base encounter? Is it an average of all parsed encounters? I know DPS has so many different factors that effect your final number.  Grouping, IMO is the biggest. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Arch</DIV> <DIV>52 Assassin</DIV>

[Tealdea]

LOL, you know what's sad? I upgrade Falttering Blast to Adep3 because it did good dmg and interrupted LOL /cry <div></div>

[KapHn8d]

<P>Great post. </P> <P>I keep telling myself that, given the positional requirement and having to sit still, Faltering Blast Adept I should have been Inflicts 1200-2000 and they just forgot a zero.  Heh.</P> <P>Overall, the revamp was a step in the right direction. I haven't been exposed to all of our new abilities yet, but I completely agree with the original poster re: the ones I do have. </P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P> </P>

[DementedGerbil]

<P>rats off to you!!!!!</P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P>you put into words what i could only [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] about on ventrilo, i just hope that SOE gets a hint</P>

[SWeav]

<DIV>I was talking about creating a thred like this with some friends the other day just never got around to doing it but this thred covers just about everything that is wrong and just completly out of wack with the Assassin class right now.  It would be nice to know that the devs realize there are problems so we know if we should reroll as Bruisers or even Bards.  I'm so frustrated with how the Assassin actually plays right now that I don't really feel like putting in the grind needed to make it from where I currently am (55) to 60.  Now on to some things that weren't covered in this thred.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>First something that everyone overlooks is the new added dps of our normal auto attack.  The first thing that is wrong with this is that they removed our self haste buff and also removed haste items stacking which in turn basiclly made this change null and void from what it was pre-DoF.  Right now my auto attack damage at 55 is comprable to what it was at 50 vs the same con mobs.  Now haste should have been fixed but I don't think they should have given us the idea that we did better auto attack damage overall which they did.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Now someone already compared us to Ranger's in some ways but I don't think I see anyone comparing our AE damage to Ranger's AE damage.  I don't have hard line numbers on the differance but I will add them to this thred when I get home from work today and put them into play here.  I'm sure if someone has the right numbers for these skills it would show that our two AE lines are pretty much useless compared to Ranger's AE lines.  I'll add more solid info later because this is one of our main downfalls.  I know playing my Assassin I think boy I sure wish I didn't hurt the group by having to fight multipul mobs at a time.  As an Assassin if we aren't pulling ^^^ mobs I'm very inefficent in my damage dealing potential.  Massacre hits about 2-3 targets (sometimes more if you are in the right postion) IF you can even cast it without getting interrupted.  I'm pretty much removing it from my hot bar at this point because I waste more time casting it then I would if I just used auto attack.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The next thing that has already been hit on is how weak / useless our ranged attacks are now.  Flattering Blast use to be our best ability now it's one of our worst.  Not being able to cast it on the run was a good nerf for bow kiters, but then on top of that our stun and the damage it did was reduced.  This is just weak, we only had 2 stuns and one was a chance at stunning.  If the stun was such an issue atleast give back the damage it delt for using up two arrows.  The Improvised Weapon line is the most useless skill I've ever seen it has absolutely no use in this game.  With 2 seconds to cast and less damage then a normal ranged attack why on earth would we bother.  I'm still shaking my head wondering what I'm supposed to do with this skill.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>There are plenty of other things wrong with Assassin's right now but I'm being cut short on my time to type this.  I would love to hear a dev respond to this thred and try to give us some idea if they even consider us broken because right now we are somewhere in the third tier of the dps tree which we are supposed to be on top of and that is pretty sad.  I'm almost to the point now were I want to reroll as a Bruiser or a Dirge because atleast they are halfway decent.  I guess the biggest problem is we don't have Moorguard playing an Assassin and helping tweak the combat changes to benifit our class.  If we did we would probably be where we are supposed to be rather then eatting the dust of all the fighters and mages who can STILL out damage us in 90% of every exp situation (I give us 10% for when we actually have assassinate and deathly blade up).  I hope Moorguard comes and disects this thred and turns it into a you aren't broken thred because I'd love to see him defend the changes that went live to Brawlers.  Anyway enough digs on how [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot]ty this class is back to work I go so I can pay eq2 another $15 bucks to play my broken class this month.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Weaver</DIV> <DIV>55 Assassin</DIV> <DIV>Guildleader of Enmity</DIV>

[Kiluvi]

<DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Jakron wrote:<BR> very nice post elv<BR> <P><SPAN class=time_text><FONT color=#ffffcc><BR></FONT></SPAN><SPAN class=time_text><FONT color=#ffffcc>o and why give predators  <FONT color=#993300><I>CRUSHING</I></FONT>  skill in our buffs?  come on now......</FONT></SPAN><BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>They added crushing increase with the offensive stances because of crushing damage arrows. *clears throat* Mainly Rangers I suppose...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I know Assassin's didn't draw the longer straw after the revamp hit live servers, but hopefully they'll be fixed. I'm a Ranger, and yes Rangers and Assassins are always trying to prove one is better dps than the other, and now that Assassins got gimped with procs... it makes a huge impact, and that isn't right at all. Rangers and Assassin's should be equal, just one is better than the other in different situations. All I can say is... Good Luck getting fixed, cause you're all correct, its not right that our proc rate is better than yours.</DIV><BR>Just wanted y'all to know I'm a Ranger and I care =P</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>EDIT:  Something that really pisses me off is that if you jump to the Ranger forums real fast... They're all complaining more than you guys are... So as a Ranger, if you see any of the whining Rangers on you're server, knock them one for me.</DIV><p>Message Edited by Kiluvian on <span class=date_text>09-30-2005</span> <span class=time_text>01:16 PM</span>

[Jvaloth]

<P>I agree with the posts here 110%.</P> <P> </P> <P>Essentially I'm astounded to see the sad state of affairs we assassins continue to have to endure.  Sure, they upgraded some skills.  They upgraded a ton of other peoples skills too.  We are supposed to be Tier 1 dps, but the parsers do not lie.  We presently are low 2nd Tier 2,  high end Tier 3 dps.  The problem with the assassin class is that we have too long of refresh times on our real dmg abilities, too long of cast times on our AEs, and a mjaority of our attacks require stealth or perfect positioning to get the skills off.   No other class in this game has so many restrictions on their ability to do damage.    Good assassins are the hardest working players in this game, BAR NONE.  Yet all the hardwork we have to put in to get up to say 300-400 dps then is overshadowed by the bruiser guy in your group thats tanking mobs, healing himself, feign deathing. Not to mention its very hard to maintain 300-400 dps,  on average I'd say I'm in the 250-275 range.  Every 10-15 minutes I can drop a Deathlyblade and a Assassinate to give me a 1 fight spike.</P> <P>Compared to our other fellow Tier 1's    Wizard, Warlock we dont even come in a close second.</P> <P>Then I see bruisers, zerkers, conjurors, necros, and a myriad of other classes whooping [Removed for Content] and doing more damage than us consistantly... I start to wonder what the hell is going on here?? </P> <P> </P> <P>Currently I'm a level 55 assassin,  tied for highest level on Antonia Bayle server. I know how to play my class and I think the above posters clearly know what they are talking about aswell.  We are gimped out.</P> <P>The initial things that need to be changed in my opinion are as follows:</P> <P>1.  <STRONG><EM><U>Assassinate moved to 3 minute timer</U></EM></STRONG>.  At first you might say what?? 3 minutes? It was an hour a few months ago!  Well lets look no further than our fellow Tier 1 wizards and warlocks.  When a wizard can do 4000-5000 every 45 seconds... thats 20k dmg every 3 minutes using 1 skill.   Compare that to a 4000-10k hit on assassinate,  AT BEST this skill does only HALF of what a wizard can do over the same period of time using 1 skill.</P> <P>2. <STRONG><EM><U>Deathly Blade moved to 2 minute timer.</U></EM></STRONG>   Same deal,  our high dmg attacks are on such long timers that they dont help us do any significant prolonged dps. Being able to hit for 1500-2500 every 2 minutes is no overpowered when looking at Wizards ability to do almost 15k in that same time period.</P> <P>3.  <U><EM><STRONG>Reduce cast times on our AEs.</STRONG> </EM></U>  Currently most mobs that AE's are usefull against are dead by the time you get your 2nd AE off.  Either remove the stealth component to these lines of spells or reduce cast time so we can actually use these skills productively.</P> <P>4. <STRONG><EM><U>Return Faltering Blast's damage.</U> </EM></STRONG> They took away the interrupt component to this bow skill AND lowered the damage??  What gives?</P> <P>5. <EM><U><STRONG>Allow Slip Away to be used in Combat.</STRONG> </U></EM> We need more in combat stealth skills, I find myself waiting and waiting for skills to pop all the time which eats into our over all DPS. </P> <P>6.  <EM><U><STRONG>Enable flank firing with Spitting Viper line.</STRONG> </U></EM>   Speaks for itself,  all our other bow skills fire from flank or rear, why does this one skill have to be EXACTLY 6 o'clock behind a mob?</P> <P> </P> <P>The list goes on...   We are  Tier 2.5 dps atm,  when are we going to be Tier 1? </P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P><STRONG><EM><U></U></EM></STRONG> </P> <p>Message Edited by Jvaloth on <span class=date_text>09-30-2005</span> <span class=time_text>05:28 PM</span>

[Darth Rev]

<div></div><div></div>Im just really shamelessly bumping this thread to keep it at the top in the slim hopes that someone who can do something about this unacceptable situation reads this thread. Jvolth - Good points, but i have to disagree with your timer on deathly blade, 2 minutes just wont cut it, gorestrike at 1 minute sometimes i can only use every other pull, sorcerer/rogue bases have skills with comparable damage and with 30-45 second timers, we are supposed to be tier1 and we have NO OTHER USE, 45 seconds deathly blade, 30 seconds gorestrike, thats it. Dont insult us by doing something stupid and lowering deathly blade to 3 minutes and saying "all fixed! have fun you little rascalls" and think that will help in the least... Wreaver, gotta say man i agree with ya, loggin in my assassin is work now, i spend my time leveling a conjuror and bruiser now because im so broken i dont want to play my assassin because it just depresses me. I hate to admit it, but im throwing in the towel, soe has killed the fantasy archtype of the assassin for me, if something isnt done soon, my conjuror will reach 50 and my beloved assassin will be no more, and i'll rejoice... /em prays someone sees this who can do something about it Kalyr <div></div><p>Message Edited by Darth Revan on <span class=date_text>09-30-2005</span> <span class=time_text>05:24 PM</span>

[Jvaloth]

<DIV>I actually thought about putting 1 minute there for Deathly Blade but didn't want to reach to far into the barrel. But after briefly thinking about it and rereading my own post,   when a wizard can stand back, target a mob and just click on 1 freaking nuke button over and over  and do 15-20k in the time it takes for our skill to refresh and then have our skillonly do 1500-3000....    its truely unacceptable. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>How did these changes go through the test phases?  Where were the assassins in the testing?  Fan boys or simply ignored?  The simple fact is that we got screwed over once again. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Lets hope someone reads these threads and takes a serious look at what we are talking about and then ACTs on it.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>P.S.  I'm not one to ever ask for nerfage but in this rare case I'd like to make an exception... for the love of God NERF Bruisers. haha</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[dea]

Thank you Elvan for providing the hard numbers that show our the startling loss damage from our non-positional combat arts. Also a thanks to Jakron for his analysis of our unreliably <i>Swipe</i> buff proc, not only penalized by not working with ranged attacks (where the bow provides impressive adjustment in proc chance) but further by both a listed proc rate far below that of our Ranger counterparts and an actual proc rate far below even the 10% cited in our ability description. (1) Yes, the increase in damage to some of our longer recast powers (<b>Cripple</b> and <b>Paralyzing Strike</b> lines) are much appreciated -- but not at the cost of our faster casting and much higher DPS frontal attacks seeing significant damage loss. This needs to be addressed and those frontal attacks be increased. (2) I'm getting used to <b>Spitting Viper</b> as a rear-only attack, my main complaint is that the max range is still not the same as my long bow. Tie the ranged attack useage ranges to the ranged weapon being used. (3) <b>Cheap Shot</b> is a great addition to our soloing capability yet provides significantly less soloing capability than the handful of stuns available to the Rogue classes. What does an Assassin have to make up for this lost ability to keep a mob stunned for more than a few seconds while we deal our damage to it? (4) While the changes to <b>Assassinate </b>are appreciated, it remains only situationally useful. More to come on this item. (5) <b>Evasion</b> is a great boon for avoiding aggro, yet all other scouts gained this benefit as well. Does this fix the inequality of our deaggro powers as compared to those of a Rogue? Not at all. <b>Surveil</b> has been increased but is still falling far short of the Rogue debuff which has a both a larger threat reduction and a negative adjustment on the hate list. Our aggro transfer is also a great addition but does not serve to help with aggro in a raid situation, this power at least needs to made Group/Raid Friend targetable. (6) <b>Apply Poison</b> -- while I would prefer a moderate damage poison that could be applied to ourselves as a cost saver I will have to agree with Elvan that I'm surprised by its utility. Certainly it provides additional help to your tank for holding aggro and additional DPS for the group as a whole. To maintain even this usefulness, however, it needs to be Raid/Group Friend targetable as it was until the tail end of DoF Beta. I'm in favor of dropping this power entirely in favor of a direct damage power which would provide additional burst DPS (it would seem that <b>Hurricane</b> makes so much more sense for Assassins, given our new concentration as the melee auto-attack specialists). (7) <b>Concealment </b>-- this certainly worked a lot better in DoF beta when the casting times of our CAs were 0.2 seconds or instant. With the 0.5s casting time for our CAs and the added insult of a short duration even at Adept III this power strains usefulness as just another combat stealth which eats a second or third attack recast timer and provides a moderate DPS increase since we pay the casting time of only one CA to get into stealth 2 or 3 times. In beta this power shined as a true damage adder indicating the real burst DPS capability of our class. Making this duration longer only helps slightly, lowering our CA casting timers while also providing a slight duration increase is really what is needed. (<img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> <b>Finishing Blow</b> -- a great spell, well thought out and very effective. While greatly useful I will have to agree with Elvan that it just falls shy of dropping a triple-delta mob from 20% to 0% under even the best circumstances. Perhaps a moderate damage increase in this power will allow it to live up to its name. (9) <b>Garotte</b> -- as I've said elsewhere, give us back our damage and improve the stifle. (10) <b>Faltering Blast</b> -- damage dropped significantly and interrupt removed. This power remains useful mainly for soloing and the proc advantage of a multi-hit bow attack. (11) <b>Improvised Weapon</b> --  less damage than auto-attack if I'm using raid-quality arrows. Why would I burn the cast time on this? For xping with cheap arrows it serves minor duty as I travel between bow and melee range. More to come in a later post. <div></div>

[Stormwitt]

This is an excellent thread. Keep up the good work. Moorgard answered a thread in the Paladin forum acknowledging some issues the Paladins are having. I have a lvl 50 Paladin and a lvl 31 assassin. Both classes are reminiscent of each other in that neither is where is should be post revamp. Please be very specific when you post your problems and avoid giving subjective opinions but stick to real measurable flaws and issues the assassin class is having. We all know that assassins are not where they should be. I also have a lvl 23 warlock and lvl 26 swashbuckler both of which are a joy to play post revamp in terms of functionality and spell effectiveness. I am hoping for both assassins and paladins to get a share of that joy as they are my favourite classes to play based on my personality and style of play. <div></div>

[TinckTrink]

<DIV>I'm going to chime in here as well from a different vantage point.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>There are about 10 different people in our guild that uses Khalysta's parser.  I would say since DoF release, 50% of the groups I've been in have had an hour's worth of battles parsed.  Here are the results of this extensive amount of testing.  I have not included the last weeks resutls as some have leveled faster than others, but the first week and a half everyone was within 1 level of each other.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Necromancers - 350-500 dps + 200 pet dps = 550-700 dps</DIV> <DIV>Wizards/Warlocks - 350-400 contant dps every fight</DIV> <DIV>Brigands - 350 constant dps every fight</DIV> <DIV>Swashbucklers - (I'm guessing same as Brigands but I don't group with them much)</DIV> <DIV>Monks - 300 constant dps every fight.</DIV> <DIV>Bruisers - (I'm guessing same as Monks but I don't group with them much)</DIV> <DIV>Illusionists - 200 constant dps every fight</DIV> <DIV>Assassins - 200 constant dps every fight, 250 per fight if I keep t5 rare poison and burn 2 t5 arrows every fight, 300 once every 5 minutes or on AE encounters, 500 once every 15 minutes.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This was from 50 to 53 level range. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Just to point out the glaring imbalance.  Wizards have Ice Comet (5k) on a 45 second timer.  This does slightly less than Assassinate (6k) which is on a 900 second timer. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Did anyone else notice that while every class was being tuned in beta and had multiple changes to their skills, the Assassin had only 1 single change to Apply Poison?  Either this is a glaring oversight by SOE, or we are all extremely bad players of Assassin's.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[NerroVI]

If indeed Wizards Ice Comet is on a 45 sec recast, there is no way in hell we should have to wait 15 minutes to reuse Assassinate, thats just crazy, most of my assassinates have been in the 5k range as it is at adept3, have got a few 7ks a few 6ks but more then most high 4-mid 5k range, and then have to wait 15 more minutes, and seriously you almost have to wait till the mob <talking group ^^ ^^^ heroic type mobs> before you burn it because if you do it to soon you can take aggro even with the threat buff on the MT and Evasion, the only time I ever consider using it right now is if the fight looks really close I may burn it just to get a surge of damage on the mob, if the mob turns on a healer i burn it to take aggro and usually end up dead, or if the mob is so close to dead I want the kill shot and that really means nothing other then i burnt a 15 min reusable skill that really is nothing more then fluff in the long run, if indeed a wizard can sit nuking for 5kish every 45 seconds. I was also watching a brigand today, was sick, lvl 52 ^^ heroic gnoll mobs out by the second lake near Twin Tears, he was level 55 so 3 levels diffrence, I timed him from start to finish he was killing them in less then 45 seconds, the mobs HP's were just flying down, he usually ended up with 1 bub of health gone by time he looted he was already onto the next ^^ heroic.  So at 55 I am going to give that a try and just see how I stack up and if in 45 seconds I can mow thru blue ^^ heroics, like they were solo tagged v mobs.  Im guessing though I will have to wait 15 minutes before each attempt =p <div></div>

[Jvaloth]

<DIV> <DIV>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------</DIV> <DIV>Necromancers/Conjurors - 350-500 dps + 200 pet dps = 550-700 dps</DIV> <DIV>Wizards/Warlocks - 350-400 contant dps every fight</DIV> <DIV>Brigands - 350 constant dps every fight</DIV> <DIV>Swashbucklers - (I'm guessing same as Brigands but I don't group with them much)</DIV> <DIV>Monks - 300 constant dps every fight.</DIV> <DIV>Bruisers - (I'm guessing same as Monks but I don't group with them much)</DIV> <DIV>Illusionists - 200 constant dps every fight</DIV> <DIV>Assassins - 200 constant dps every fight, 250 per fight if I keep t5 rare poison and burn 2 t5 arrows every fight, 300 once every 5 minutes or on AE encounters, 500 once every 15 minutes.</DIV> <DIV>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I've seen wizards/warlocks hitting for much higher than that on average.  I've also seen Bruisers do significantly more damage than monks and they can tank! haha</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If you look at all these classes,  they can all solo a hell of alot better  than assassins too.    So basically we tank like casters and the only people we out do in dps are priests.  We are totally dependant on a group to be successfull and then we have to worry about mob positioning and getting in and out of stealth, turning attacks off, keeping poisons up, and AE interrupts breakign stealth.... to even compete with the Tier 4 people.  Charming.  Like I've been saying since combat changes went live...  the parsers dont lie. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Keep parsing guys, it'll be frustrating as hell but atleast you'll have more solid data to back up our sad state of affairs on this thread.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>How did this make it through the testing phase?  I just don't get it.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV></DIV> <P>Message Edited by Jvaloth on <SPAN class=date_text>10-01-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>04:46 PM</SPAN></P><p>Message Edited by Jvaloth on <span class=date_text>10-01-2005</span> <span class=time_text>04:58 PM</span>

[dea]

For soloing capability we can't compete with the Rogues, their multiple stuns will allow them to manage the battle like we never can. If we are to be able to solo like other classes, we certainly need a stun that holds well on heroic mobs. But that isn't even what I'm here asking for. If we are to be able to solo competatively with other classes we need to be able to manage mobs like other classes can in order to get our positional attacks off, if we are to reveal our awesome DPS in groups then we similarly need our damage increased across the board and our casting and recasting timers reduced. What I'm looking for is the development team to vocalize a direction for us and provide the tools for us to make it a reality. Failing that, we as a community have come together here to say what is wrong with our class as it stands, suggest ways to alleviate these inequities, and allow our class to be fun once agian. Being told that we will be Tier 1 DPS, yet being put in a position where any similarly leveled and equipped DPS class is more desirable than we are does not make this class fun to play and it certainly doesn't show our DPS superiority. <div></div>

[Gorhauth]

<div></div><span><blockquote><hr>NerroVI wrote:I was also watching a brigand today, was sick, lvl 52 ^^ heroic gnoll mobs out by the second lake near Twin Tears, he was level 55 so 3 levels diffrence, I timed him from start to finish he was killing them in less then 45 seconds, the mobs HP's were just flying down, he usually ended up with 1 bub of health gone by time he looted he was already onto the next ^^ heroic.  So at 55 I am going to give that a try and just see how I stack up and if in 45 seconds I can mow thru blue ^^ heroics, like they were solo tagged v mobs.  Im guessing though I will have to wait 15 minutes before each attempt =p<div></div><hr></blockquote>Up until yesterday there was an exploit that Brigs could use.  All I know about it is that it involved an outdoor zone, a proc buff, and evac.  Apparently they were able to get the buff stuck 'on' as opposed to the 30sec or whatever timer.  I've heard of them sustaining over 2k DPS per fight with that.  That exploit might have been what you were watching in action.Of course, they do have really sick DPS anyway because of their short recast times, but I don't think that dropping those guys in 45secs was normal.</span><div></div>

[spankosaurus]

<DIV>Well, after doing a rognog raid today, I can say that we are not that bad off. While our grind group DPS does still suffer mroe than most, in a medium length raid fight, we dominate. I parsed over 690 on the rognog fight (counting the inital Rognog pull, not the fish), which beat out a swashbuckler by almost 200. Then again this was help by assassinate, but since the the timer is only 15 mins now, you can almost use once a raid per night, which helps tremendously.</DIV>

[Darth Rev]

<div></div><span><blockquote><hr>spankosaurus wrote:<div>Well, after doing a rognog raid today, I can say that we are not that bad off. While our grind group DPS does still suffer mroe than most, in a medium length raid fight, we dominate. I parsed over 690 on the rognog fight (counting the inital Rognog pull, not the fish), which beat out a swashbuckler by almost 200. Then again this was help by assassinate, but since the the timer is only 15 mins now, you can almost use once a raid per night, which helps tremendously.</div><hr></blockquote>Ya, that title above your exp bar on your stats page says swashbuckler chucko,  if your parsing those numbers your on a server where nobody knows how to play their class and they are all buffing you. Maybe your parser is broken, but we are NOT well off and you need to check those numbers again. Perhaps your 60 and those swashbucklers were 30, then maybe thats compareable. </span><span>Of course all the assassins that play this game could be wrong and you alone could be right... /sarcasm off</span> <div></div><p>Message Edited by Darth Revan on <span class=date_text>10-01-2005</span> <span class=time_text>10:50 PM</span>

[Sharill]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Darth Revan wrote:<BR> RECAST TIMERS - our timers on many of our arts are just TOOOOOO long, gorestrike should be 30 seconds, deathly blade should be 45 seconds, and assassinate should be 5 minutes. before you all jump outa yer seats, or call the guys in the white coats to take me away let me say something. Gorestrike does around as much damage, actually less mind you, than the brigands surprise blow line and thats 30 seconds, but gorestrike requires stealth and position, whereas surprise blow requires neither of these. To me that would seem a fair adjustment since you all SAID we were supposed to be tier1 dps right? Deathly blow, there is no excuse for how long that timer is, with 285str my deathly blow does 1885-3139 dmg on a FIVE minute timer, that means maybe once every 3 pulls tops. I have two comparisions for this, 1.) ice comet... 45 sec cast, 5500 dmg.... uhh ya that seems fair to me... 2.) Hurricane.... nuff said, how can you even THINK deathly blade is a more powerful ability thus a longer timer than 3 minute hurricane... plz explain this one to me... really... Ok and 1 more thing, wizards too get surging tempest, 2k-3500 at app1 with a dot and a proc... 1 minute recast....? how is this even close to anything we got and we are supposed to be same tier. Yes i believe wizards should be doing more dps than us, but... thats ridiculous<BR> <P>Message Edited by Darth Revan on <SPAN class=date_text>09-29-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>04:17 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Brigand's surprise blow? If you mean the Ruse-TRickery-Deceit line, that's a 1 min recast, and while it does not require stealth it does require the mob to hit you during the 10 seconds you are down, looking feigning. It states it moves you up 2 steps on the hate list when you cast it, but that may be bugged - I found it hard to use in a group with a tank or pet. It is also entirely possible that some lower level mob doesn't land a hit at all - you riposte and parry during the time "on the ground" as well.</DIV>

[spankosaurus]

g <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Darth Revan wrote:<BR> <SPAN><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> spankosaurus wrote:<BR> <DIV>Well, after doing a rognog raid today, I can say that we are not that bad off. While our grind group DPS does still suffer mroe than most, in a medium length raid fight, we dominate. I parsed over 690 on the rognog fight (counting the inital Rognog pull, not the fish), which beat out a swashbuckler by almost 200. Then again this was help by assassinate, but since the the timer is only 15 mins now, you can almost use once a raid per night, which helps tremendously.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Ya, that title above your exp bar on your stats page says swashbuckler chucko,  if your parsing those numbers your on a server where nobody knows how to play their class and they are all buffing you. Maybe your parser is broken, but we are NOT well off and you need to check those numbers again. Perhaps your 60 and those swashbucklers were 30, then maybe thats compareable.<BR><BR></SPAN><SPAN>Of course all the assassins that play this game could be wrong and you alone could be right... /sarcasm off</SPAN><BR> <P>Message Edited by Darth Revan on <SPAN class=date_text>10-01-2005</SPAN><SPAN class=time_text>10:50 PM</SPAN><BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Here's a thought genious, when everyone does alot of damage, my DPS gets even higher, im not saying i put out and insane amount of damage although it was a good bit, but come on, a full raid force averaging lvl 55, on ROGNOG? how hard do you think it is to drop to that guy? on short fights (like that one is if you count from when the parse started) it is very easy to get that high with assassinate up. autoattack melee with adept 3 blade storm+brutal focus+ honed rflexes can get near 300 DPS if the mob is debuffed alot. I'm not saying assassins are perfect, but they are not the worst class either.</DIV>

[Darth Rev]

Look im not gonna argue with either of you who replied to what i said. Its simple, assassins are broken, if you dont agree either you arent playing one, dont know anything about them, or you dont want them to be fixed for some reason. I'll say no more because i dont want this thread to degenerate from the point of getting us fixed. <div></div>

[thebigtime]

Well we have quite the discussion going on. I won't get into details about what changes need to happen for us, my fellow high-end assassins have taken care of that for me. I will however post some insight into dps of classes. I continually parse, I get averages over many hours, yadda yadda yadda. So where do we stand? Well I could just say a bunch of numbers but of course it all depends on the group make-up, buffs, etc. So assuming on a 1 to 10 scale, 1 being the lowest dps and 10 the highest respectively. BTW I've used a scale of 10 because I am including 10 sub-classes in this comparison. Predators, Sorcerors (Tier1 dps), Rogues, Summoners (Tier2 dps), Brawlers (Tier4 dps). These tiers I've just listed are via moorgard's post about relative dps between classes some many weeks ago. Anyhow moving onto the comparison. So we are all on an equal page, everyone is similarly geared (ie. fabled/legendary) and the majority of encounters are in fact AE encounters (designated as 2+ mobs) as we have all seen the majority of mobs in DoF are in fact, AE encounters. 10- Necromancer     5- Ranger 9- Warlock                4- Bruiser 8- Conjuror               3- Brigand 7- Swashbuckler      2- Assassin 6- Wizard                 1- Monk Now to be honest, this little chart I've got here has discrepancies, but after close to 100 hours parsing I feel it is fairly accurate. I will note however that I just threw the brigand in there where I expected one might fall, I have not parsed a single brigand post expansion and I'm not even sure there is one in my guild. Moreover I would like to point out the fact about pet and priest DPS. I have been parsing Necromancer pets upwards of 300dps and Conjuror pets not far behind. I find it hilarious when I see their pet solely outdamage 80% of the people in my guild. Regarding priest dps which I will not get into much, something has to change. I have parsed furies, over 10+ hours so this isn't some freak occurance doing well over 300dps. Let's not forget furies can /drumroll......HEAL. That doesn't include porcupine either which is added to the reciever's dps and not the furies if used. Lastly before you go ranting about how off base and stupid I am, go grab your local guildies, hit up some xp and crank up that parser my friend's. Read it and weep.             - Anarke Khan of Ethereal Legacy formerly of Genesis            

[Armill]

My biggest grife, is recast timers. I feel when im soloing that I have no options to use, just cause we can go through almost all of are combat arts in a ridcliously short amount of time and than have to wait a minimum of ten seconds to use one.

[SmEaGoLLuM]

I am going to add my opinions here and hope the devs note our thoughts and suggestions - I have a 52 warlock, 50 defiler, 50 swashy and 51 assassin. Right now the assassin is very sub par in dps compared to the top 4 dps class - wizard, warlock, ranger, assassin. I am consistently outdpsed by rangers by 180%, that means they are almost doing double my dps. Wizard dps is phenomal (highest dps) and warlock dps is very situational but can be up there. In fact summoners and even my swashy who I haven't played in months is outdpsing my assassin and it's not cos my assassin is not well upgraded, is has 248 self buffed str and few masters and rest adept3s. Only my warlock is prob a little more upgraded in terms of spells and gear. There are a few reasons why assassin's are suffering quite a lot on the dps charts and <i>especially</i> in ae situations. For one, two our frontal attacks do very miniscule damage, namely our seeping wound and infected wound lines. Seeping wound imo should be the true dot but infected wound should be a much larger frontal attack and hence should have a larger initial damage. Right now infected wound's initial damage is very miniscule, it hardly breaks the 200 mark. I believe our lingering blow line is quite good in terms of dmg. Our seeping wound line needs to do a higher dot as right now it produces a very low dps outflow and is barely noticeable. In fact, my defilers suppuration and fulginous lines do about the same damage each and a defiler is a priest. Another reasons is our huge downtimes going into sneak and also the fact that we only really have 2 sneaks, and one of them is a 2 sec cast. Our mask of night sneak goes with our punch blade line so that doesn't count. So <i>both</i> our aes require sneak and <i>four</i> (4) of our mellee attacks require sneak. That is a huge amount of downtime but I am ok with that due to our classes unique ability of doing high dmg sneaking up on opponents and devastating them from behind - so in a unique and role playing sense it is fine that so many of our attacks require sneak and even though one of our sneak requires 2 sec cast which is huge downtime. <i>But</i> our sneak attacks don't do much damage at all. I am also ok with the fact that we are supposed to do high damage and have very high recast timers but that is not the case with our damage. For example our bloodthirster does about 700-1100 but on a 1 min timer, a wizard has a nuke (namely ball of flames) about 1.1k on a 9 sec recast. Sure it's 3 sec cast but with so many of our skills requiring sneak and our sneak casts taking quite a long time to cast and only having 2, it actually has us taking longer to cast our combat arts. We have condemning blade which does about 2k+ on a 5 minute recast and wizard get ice comet on a 45 recast which does about 4.2k+ so go figure. Not to mention our cripple is about 3 min recast for about 500 dmg. (Is cripple just there to help us get a highest hit or something?) We also have to attack from behind but I don't mind that and that is part of being a scout. Also I pity the damage on our Garrote line. Not only does it require to use a precious sneak, it stifles for only 4.5 secs and does less damage than a templar nuke, which is why it's so sad. As we are not a rogue but a pred class, the damage on it should be greatly increased, whereas if this skill were on a rogue I would recommend it stifle for longer. As it stands right now there is no point in using it and I know SOE made a huge effort in making many worthless spells and cas useful in the combat revamp but I am sincerely saying this ca is never used by me. Lastly, 5 min recast on murderous intent which lasts 36 secs? I know post revamp many classes had spells which were useless such as this one and SOE eliminated them to something like 30 secs 45 sec recast or 15sec 1.5 min recast but the spell vastly improving. Inspired daring on my swashy for e.g. Right now the murderous intent's recast is too high. Either it should be lowered or the buff made much better and leave it at 5 min recast. Ok our aes are aweful and probably the worst out of all the dps classes, sorcs, preds, summoners, rogues. Our shadow assault and massacre lines take a huge time to cast and also require us to be in sneak for both of them. But smart assassin's will prob sneak before the combat beginss with our insta sneak but that does not warrant their huge cast times (being a scout and pred especially) and doing mediocre damage. This also brings me to positioning which is a thing that other classes dont have to worry about and also the fact that our sneak usually break from the mob's aes. Because we are moving like snails while in sneak it usually takes us a while to position ourselves to produce the max dps (hitting the most targets) and also the tank moving around doesn't help. <i>In addition</i> to that our massacre line only hits mobs in front of us while also having a huge cast time so not only does it take us a while to position ourselves so we hit the most targets, and also usually being ae'ed out of sneak around the 2.5 sec cast mark, 9 times out of 10 we end hitting 60% of the multiple mobs. Commenting on our bow attacks, I like the damage on 2 out of the 4 but faltering shot and improvised weapon are really sub par. I know SOE wants preds, rangers obviously but also assassin's to have a few ranged attacks but the damage on those two mentioned above is lower than a rogue bow attack, or in their case throwing ranged attacks. Yes faltering blade coupled with poisons and othe procs it can do quite a noticeable amount but that is not from the ca itself, and it is higher dependant on chance not to mention very costly. Improvised weapon is just as sad as it is 2 sec cast and does even less damage than faltering shot and also having a longer recast than faltering. These two bow arts should be increased in damage slightly in my honest opinion. These are the thoughts I have gathered since DoF released and as I gather more info and experience I might add more here. Sorry if you did not understand some points, I wrote this very fast late at night as I wanted to spill out all my feedback before I forgot anything. Btw I am very happy with the changes to swashy and defiler, not so much with warlock either (they still rock but very situational) and the fact that I did not pick a sorc to specialist in multiple targets, that is another topic altogether though. But my biggest concern by far is the post revamp assassin as these guys are really suffering in their role as a top dps class. <div></div>

[Kimira]

<DIV>Great post.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Easy fix is like the mentioned 3 min timer for assassinate (same timer as beserkers rampage) and for whirling blades to actually proc 10% of the time.</DIV><p>Message Edited by Kimirahi on <span class=date_text>10-02-2005</span> <span class=time_text>10:42 AM</span>

[spankosaurus]

<DIV>I never said that the assassin class was perfect, what i was trying to say that in the right situation, i.e. a single mob and the fight lasting just long enough for all dots to run there full route, and assassinate, with deathly blade, we can be the best. If you take 2 seconds to think about what i was saying, you'll notice that this situation barely ever occurs. I stated in my orignal post that we get beat 80% of the time in grind groups and we are not as capable of a solo class as other scouts. Im simply trying to say it is not always that bad, take two seconds from your whining and realize there are times, albeit very few, that we can shine.</DIV>

[dea]

<span><blockquote><hr>spankosaurus wrote:<div>I never said that the assassin class was perfect, what i was trying to say that in the right situation, i.e. a single mob and the fight lasting just long enough for all dots to run there full route, and assassinate, with deathly blade, we can be the best. If you take 2 seconds to think about what i was saying, you'll notice that this situation barely ever occurs. I stated in my orignal post that we get beat 80% of the time in grind groups and we are not as capable of a solo class as other scouts. Im simply trying to say it is not always that bad, take two seconds from your whining and realize there are times, albeit very few, that we can shine.</div><hr></blockquote>First off, using every single high delay CA that I have in a battle is not effective. For a battle that last long enough to cycle these powers it is still a waste as the other DPS classes are burning the mob down faster than you can drop into stealth. In a standard cycle, putting in debuffs and DoTs, moving onto stealth spells, auto-attacking when the short duration haste/dps buffs are up -- I can approach 600+ DPS (parsed with Combat Stats, don't compare apples to oranges if you use another parser). This is pretty sad since my Necro's pet regularly posts 300 DPS itself and the other DPS classes are routinely posting 600-800 DPS on long battles and over 1000 DPS (some much higher in the 2-3k range) in the majority of our short battles. The sad reality is that there are <u><b><i>no</i></b></u> single-group situations that an Assassin can be more of an asset to than any other DPS class (Wizards, Warlocks, Conjurors, Necromancers, Berserkers, Bruisers, Swashbucklers, Brigands, Rangers). All of the above can both provide more group utility and deal non-positional damage that we can't compete with. For single-groupable encounters, if the battle lasts long enough for an Assassin to deal significant positional or from-stealth damage it is already taking too long and someone is slacking off. That leaves raid situations. OK, in a raid zone we are dealing with multi-mob encounters for the majority of the content. Are Assassin's better in these cases than Warlocks, Beserkers, and Swashbucklers? Of course not. OK, how about the final mob. We can help the main tank to hold aggro with our aggro transfer buff while we burn all of our long delay timers, can't we? Well, no -- our aggro transfer is Group Friend only, not Group/Raid Friend as it was in DoF Beta. What is that you say? We did more damage per unit time (DPS) on the other encounters when we were auto-attacking more instead of dropping into stealth to make use of our long recast spells? Well, that is just sad. That leaves perhaps solo situations. But it is obvious that with a repertoire of positional and from-stealth skills yet only a single short-duration stun (that gets shrugged off by even single-delta solo mobs much less double-/triple-delta heroic mobs) and a single root we are woefully without the tools to make good use of those positional and from-stealth combat arts that are <b><i>supposed </i></b>to balance us against other classes.</span><div></div>

[Forsaken_God]

<DIV>Assassinate to a 3min timer is not going to fix anything. compare that to ice comet. 5500 damage master 1 and assassinate 7500 master 1. 5500 x 4 = 22000 in the amount of timer we do 7500 damage, is that balanced? If procs were fixed, damage increased and restrictions lowered on AoEs and timers lower on gorestrike(30s), Deathly Blade(45s) and Assassinate(1min) things will be balanced.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>From parses with Brigands, brigands actually do almost the same dps as we do in our broken state. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Roloc]

I just want to throw out here that I am in agreement with this post.  We need fixing and fast.  I really was hoping the combat upgrade would help us out, but after I gave it some time it looks as though we went the other way.  Please devs, make this a priority. Roloc 49 Iksar Assassin Unrest <div></div>

[NerroVI]

Here is how I look at it. Wizard can walk around and every 45secs can take a solo mob to 1/4 health and in 1  more nukes mob dead, wait what 15 secs to get power back and 30 more secs and repeat. Assassin can stealth Assassinate some mob <if they dont block, parry, see stealth> maybe 1 shot or 3/4 life it then finish it up, restealth go over and Deathly Blade another solo mob for maybe 1/2 life kill it in another 10 -15 secs or so. Now the assassin has to wait about 5 more mins for Deathly Blade, and another 13 mins at this point for Assassinate.   We then have to depend on Gore Strike mask of night then punch blade or Garotte as our main backstabs and depend on our med damage CA's, which is pretty much how I do it now, mix in a ranged attack here and there so I am using the full arsenal of CA's while another class can sit around root, ice comet and kill a mob easily at no real risk, this isnt even getting into the whole classes that can easily solo ^^ heroics and ^^^ heroics in some cases. We have 1 stun, we have 1 root, even though I use the root I still don't fully understand why a assassin would get a root, at times I feel like a ranger from EQ, I can root, and snare, and then im a druid to I can succor my group, I truely sometimes wonder if I am really playing a assassin, I mean I really played a assassin because I didnt wana buff ppl, I didnt wana snare mobs or root them, I didnt even really wana fire arrows at mobs, I thought as a assassin I would be the best at stealth, the top at putting out damage on a target from BEHIND a mob, which I have no prob at all being forced to stand behind a mob, IF the damage was consistent with having to be a strictly positional class.  I personally would rather see our snare go, our root go, and at this point our ranged go for improved BETTER then anyone stealth ability, and HIGH damage positional attacks, not just stealthed, a simple med/high damage no stealth BEHIND the mob 30 sec attack would be a real increase. Anyway hopefully we can get heard and some changes in, once again while we are better then before in some cases and some changes are really nice, i still don't feel like the master of stealth and death from behind. <div></div>

[dea]

<div></div><div></div>Many who haven't played an Assassin as their main character simply don't realize the restrictions placed upon our class in order to deal our damage. I've attempted to capture some of those limitations and have posted them on the Internet for the benefit of any who care to read it. [<a href="http://janus.ntsj.com/eq2/assassin_essay-time_is_precious.html" target="_blank">Short Essay</a>] - Last Updated 02:17, 03-Oct-2005 <u><b>Mitigation From Stealth Breaking Due To Non-Direct Damage</b></u> A suggestion made on the world-wide Guk.assassin channel is to provide a type of mitigation from non-direct damage breaking stealth. Either something based upon the Focus ability that provides a chance to resist the stealth-breaking effect for non-direct damage while in stealth (with corresponding +Focus buffs on our stealths that scale with combat art quality and tier upgrades) or else an effect added to our combat-stealth lines (Stalk and Shrouded Blade lines) that cannot be broken by non-direct damage at all. Such a change would make major inroads with our community, we would still pay the cost to get into stealth but it would not be wasted as often as it currently is by that stealth being broken. <u><b>Controversial: Bring Back Disappear As A Class Flavor Combat Art</b></u> Assassins should be the masters of stealth. Indeed our instant-cast stealth powers and faster-than-others travel stealth have certainly suggested that is where the development team wants our sub-class. One thing that has always been missing from stealth is the ability of stealth to make you actually disappear from a mob. Similar to a feign death effect, a stealth effect with a severe movement penalty that actually removes an Assassin from the hate list entirely during its effect would be a great spell to add flavor to our class. This is what I had been hoping for from our Slip Away/Disappear line as I was leveling up, needless to say I was greatly disappointed. Yes this adds a bit of utility to the Assassin class, but there is no class in the game that this type of flavor fits as well as ours. I understand that the Brigands had a feign-death effect on one of their stealth powers before the revamp, that power has now been removed and an addition of this capability to the Assassin class would not replicate an ability already present in another Scout-archetype class. With the removal of speed as a distinction between travel stealth powers, this addition could provide much needed distinction for our class in terms of stealth. <u><b>Stealth As A Damage Multiplier, How About A Damage Bonus</b></u> Providing a damage bonus for the Assassin sub-class while attacking from stealth would be another step in the right direction to make up for DPS lost while dropping into stealth. If a damage multiplier could be provided by one or more combat stealth lines (say the Stalk line for example) it can be used to balance our damage output against the lag time associated with dropping into stealth and executing a stealthed attack. <div></div><p>Message Edited by deaks on <span class=date_text>10-03-2005</span> <span class=time_text>02:20 AM</span>

[Kokus]

<DIV>Something I had thought of today when fighting... When wizards or warlocks get a resist on their big nuke, their recast is shortened so they can try it again fairly quickly.. When assassinate is blocked/misses, etc. we wait 15 minutes for another attempt as some high end damage.  Nothing more irritating than saving deathly blade and assassinate for a fight, hit concealment and fire through your stealth attacks to down the mob to have deathly blade and assassinate both miss... and get have to wait the full recast time which is agonizingly long.</DIV>

[SmEaGoLLuM]

<div></div>Yes, if for example mask of night is parried/blocked/misses we also lose a sneak there. For some reason the mob can be stunned and I can be behind the mob and my sneak attacks, condemning blade, bloodthirster etc can still miss and it severely hinders our dps. And this is not because I am fighting mobs 10 levels higher, but fighting yellow cons with my offensive stance and swindler's gift on. Not only do wizards do more damage than us over time, I was in a group with a wizard in living tombs just earlier and I could hardly get any attacks off cos the wizard kept nuking things dead so quickly. In fact, even if a wizard does not cast ice comet, their dps is still much higher than an assassin's. All in all in relation to what many have said and what I posed above with our sneak downtimes etc, the damage on our cas are very minimal in relation to their relative recast timers. I sincerely encourage a developer to play an assassin and to group with an assassin. Next put in any of the tier 1 <i>or </i>2 dps classes and you will see we fall short from all of them. Please have a second browse through these assassin forums please devs and see for yourself the current state of the assassin. Our dots as mentioned are mediocre at best, their damage is minimal for its full duration but the main problem is that fights do not last the whole duration and we are able to recast the ca before the whole duration is even past. On another note, currently cheap shot does not work at all against solo one up arrow mobs. Also sometimes surveil does not refresh and we have to rezone for it to be used again, but does not happen often. Also I see that my mask of night hits yet I do not go into sneak, there is a bug relating to that, sometimes when I use surveil and I am not damaged, I immediately come out of sneak for no reason. I would also like to add the other classe's dps on continuous fights is very very consistent, this includes all other tier 1 and tier 2 dps classes. Yet <i>even</i> with all our timers up, we end up short by a severe margin. Yet the next fight on the next pull half our cas aren't even up to use and hence we end up doing less than the tank, a shadowknight for example. <div></div><p>Message Edited by SmEaGoLLuM86 on <span class=date_text>10-03-2005</span> <span class=time_text>06:56 PM</span>

[SWeav]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> SmEaGoLLuM86 wrote:<BR> On another note, currently cheap shot does not work at all against solo one up arrow mobs. Also sometimes surveil does not refresh and we have to rezone for it to be used again, but does not happen often. Also I see that my mask of night hits yet I do not go into sneak, there is a bug relating to that, sometimes when I use surveil and I am not damaged, I immediately come out of sneak for no reason.<BR> <P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P> </P> <P>Cheap shot discription says it doesn't work against anything other then no arrow or lower mobs.  So hoping that it will work vs up arrows is pretty much out of the question.  They won't be giving us any stuns other then this from what I see it would be "unbalanced" for Assassin's to be able to stun mobs I guess.</P> <P>Surveil not refreshing is because there is and has always been a bug with finishing HO's with it.  If you finish a HO with Surveil it won't refresh and you have to zone / relog to be able to use it again.  Just another reason why we are broken and overlooked.</P> <P>Reading through this thred I don't think we will ever be "fixed".  As of now this thred shows just about everything that is wrong with Asssassin's currently but no dev's have posted on this thred, no changes have been pushed to test, and there is absolutly no sign of a "fix" for us.  I don't think they really care to much about Assassin's as we aren't an essential class to the game.  We are pretty much a filler class to add some fluff and variety.  We aren't needed to make the game work so why should they bother fixing us.  If we were a fighter or a priest we might get fixed but as it stands noone cares about Assassin's were just some lame dps class that is broken.  The other thing is if you look through the threds on the other forums most the time they are 5-6 pages long and this one is now reaching 2 pages.  It just shows you that there aren't many high lvl Assassin's still out there and the way it seems is the more people who play the class and complain about the class determines who gets fixed first.  EQ2 has proven this time and time again.  If Assassin's were an essential class or a large number of people played them they would already have been looked at or fixed.  As it is now SoE doesn't have to much priority on us because we are such a small # in the community.</P> <P>Weaver 56 Assassin</P> <P> </P>

[dparker7]

I think the first post has most of the info we need, but I think that the part about blocks and misses still giving us the full downtime and the hit rate of MoN also need to be included.  MoN is especially worrisome given our absolute reliance on stealth.

[dparker7]

<P>So, one of the trolls on the forum got me to thinking about how it would be possible to post the massive sustained DPS he claimed his guild assassin was doing and how we're all just bad at playing our class. </P> <P>In response, I decided to go through my abilities and what I would use in full burn mode on a single target encounter - where we are supposed to be best.  This is all from memory so some timers and damage may be off.  I used the high end of damage in each case with the abilities I have at 53.  This does not include autoattack, poison or procs, but it also doesnt include casting time, the need for stealth or movement between melee and ranged.  Also, all values are based off of ad3 or M1 or M2.</P> <P>Skill - Approx. Max Damage - Refresh - Max DPS</P> <P>Assassin's Shot - 1200 - 30 - 40</P> <P>Spitting Viper - 1300 - 60 - 21.67</P> <P>Mask of Night - 500 - 10 - 50</P> <P>Punch Blade - 600 - 10 - 60</P> <P>Exposed Mark - 400 - 60 - 6.67</P> <P>Paralyzing Strike - 800 - 60 - 13.33</P> <P>Cripple - 800 - 180 - 4.44</P> <P>Deathly Blade - 3000 - 300 - 10</P> <P>Assassinate - 10,000 - 900 - 11.14 (I think Ive hit this high on assassinate once)</P> <P>Gore Strike - 1800 - 60 - 30</P> <P>Garrote - 400 - 60 - 6.66</P> <P>Lingering blow - 560 - 12 - 46.66</P> <P>Infected Wound - 714 - 24 - 29.5</P> <P>Oozing Wound - 1200 - 36 - 33.33</P> <P>Faltering Blast - 400 - 20 -20</P> <P>Improvised Weapon - 500 - 30 - 16.66</P> <P> </P> <P>Grand total is 400.4 sustained max DPS.  This does not include Deadfall, Honed reflexes, Murderous intent (or focus can never keep them straight), Anathema, Apply poison, and Finishing Blow ( I dont have that yet)</P> <P>There of course is no possible way to be able to hit all these skills everytime they pop nor is it possible to hit the top end of the damage ranges every time.  But even when you add in other skills and our autoattack, I dont see how we outshine a necro whos pet does 300 sustained DPS by itself.</P> <P> </P>

[Cassius6]

<div></div>It don't seems so that SOE cares about it, but at this point the assassin doesn't fit in the gameplay. As a conclusion I wrote a bug-report ingame ( /bug,  mechanics, other, gameplay, everytime) and put the link to this forum-posting in it. Maybe if enough assassin-players do this, someone of the development team will have a look on it. <div></div><p>Message Edited by Cassius666 on <span class=date_text>10-03-2005</span> <span class=time_text>10:58 AM</span>

[Jvaloth]

<DIV>Was grouped with another level 57 guild assassin today and we were discussing this thread and our classes in Ventrillo.   The rest of my guildies started chiming in on the kind of dps they do consistantly and the max dps they've ever done and I was once again ashamed to play an assassin.  Not only that but I started worrying that by telling my guildies just how pathetic our assassin dps was... that this may somehow effect our number of invites to groups and raids. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>A 57 zerker in guild said he did consistant DPS  of 495-710 against blue con  ^ ^ ^  3 mob epic X 2's.    His max dps score was 1880.  Lets remember this is a tank.  A tank that almost doubles our max avg dps and  nearly triples our max dps scores.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>A troubador in my guild said his highest dps score was in access of 3k.   </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>After speaking with pretty much every guildy that was in DoF Beta and experienced combat changes before they were live, they all stated that they never saw any assassins in the beta. They said that maybe 2-3 were ever on.   If this is the case,  it makes sense as to why these changes went through without a hitch and with little resistance within the Assassin community.    Now its up to us  to make it right.  We must remain vocal and see this through to the end.  Tier 1 dps or bust.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Darth Rev]

<span><blockquote><hr>Jvaloth wrote:<div> </div> <div>After speaking with pretty much every guildy that was in DoF Beta and experienced combat changes before they were live, they all stated that they never saw any assassins in the beta. They said that maybe 2-3 were ever on.   If this is the case,  it makes sense as to why these changes went through without a hitch and with little resistance within the Assassin community.    Now its up to us  to make it right.  We must remain vocal and see this through to the end.  Tier 1 dps or bust. </div><hr></blockquote>The reason for this is because we were broken for so long that assassins just started dropping like flies once they hit 50 and realized they were useless. I can still recall the names of at least 15 assassins i watched during my grind to 50 to see where i was at. a /who all assassin would bring 100 results alot of the time. Now i can say that im the oldest assassin who has not yet quit his class, and that time is fast approaching. We are a dying breed and soe could care less.</span><div></div>

[Gorhauth]

<span><blockquote><hr>Jvaloth wrote: <div>After speaking with pretty much every guildy that was in DoF Beta and experienced combat changes before they were live, they all stated that they never saw any assassins in the beta. They said that maybe 2-3 were ever on.   If this is the case,  it makes sense as to why these changes went through without a hitch and with little resistance within the Assassin community.    Now its up to us  to make it right.  We must remain vocal and see this through to the end.  Tier 1 dps or bust.</div><hr></blockquote>There were assassins on, and often.  The issue was that we got fixed early in the process and everything worked.  Assassins were great and had minimal complaints.  Then the strength thing hit that broke us.  That took a while to fix.  After they fixed it, we were still OK.  Then, within a week of release, they gimped us.  I quit playing beta by that point because I was satisfied with the class.  We got hit hard, with no explanation and with no dev response since.  You can't blame the beta assassins for this.</span><div></div>

[Skratttt]

<P>Yeah its sad.....</P> <P>Our offensive ability SUCKS......its broken...10%?? more like 0.1% proc rate</P> <P>The suposed improoved assassins mark line is worse than the old version...(if u had a master1/adept 3 of this u know its so)</P> <P>The changes to our dot mele are killing our dps....our skills now have LESS dmg than before (exept assassinate, CB)...werent we suposed to upgrade our dps in reference to other classes?</P> <P> </P>

[dea]

<span><blockquote><hr>Gorhauth wrote:<span><blockquote><hr>Jvaloth wrote: <div>After speaking with pretty much every guildy that was in DoF Beta and experienced combat changes before they were live, they all stated that they never saw any assassins in the beta. They said that maybe 2-3 were ever on.   If this is the case,  it makes sense as to why these changes went through without a hitch and with little resistance within the Assassin community.    Now its up to us  to make it right.  We must remain vocal and see this through to the end.  Tier 1 dps or bust.</div><hr></blockquote>There were assassins on, and often.  The issue was that we got fixed early in the process and everything worked.  Assassins were great and had minimal complaints.  Then the strength thing hit that broke us.  That took a while to fix.  After they fixed it, we were still OK.  Then, within a week of release, they gimped us.  I quit playing beta by that point because I was satisfied with the class.  We got hit hard, with no explanation and with no dev response since.  You can't blame the beta assassins for this.</span><div></div><hr></blockquote>This is right on the money. I had no serious issue with my Assassin during DoF Beta, at 50, 55, or 60. Standard t5 gear, or half-fabled t6 gear it was very playable and our damage output was good. I didn't have any issue with Warlocks posting multiple-thousand DPS parses on group mobs, my single-target damage was fairly consistent and at times impressive. Granted I didn't group with a Berserker, Brigand, or Swashbuckler at all in Beta, I may have had more to say if I had seen them in action. I did, however, group with Rangers and while they owned most encounters Assassins still had a role on non-trivial fights where we can bring our large hits into play. Fast-forward to Live. Rangers comparatively don't seem to show any ill effects in the damage output department yet as an Assassin I am woefully worse than during Beta. Also, please don't compare our DPS to Berserkers when they are main tanking. The various buffs placed on them in such situations make a comparison relatively worthless, they are doing tons of DPS to help them hold aggro thru direct, AE, and damage-shield attacks. Taunts were certainly increased but DPS remains key to allowing strong aggro control for many tank classes. If anything, get raiding (t5 or t6, whatever you please) and put these classes in your DPS groups to get a better gauge on them when they are buffed similarly to yourself; alternately, you can simply have them play main assist to another tank in your XP group and watch them in that role (keeping in mind they are likely trading off damage output for buffing your main tank, so they can probably reach even higher numbers when raiding in DPS mode). You may be surprised to see that although the damage output of your tank classes (Berserkers, Shadowknights, and Guardians for example) is still considerably higher than ours, it is nowhere near as astronomical as when they are buffed for tanking with multiple damage shields and the best buffs your groups have to offer.</span><div></div>

[bboymike]

<P>I dont understand why a tank class is able to out dps an assassin in every encounter... i dont even know why our class is call assassins, we dont fit this name at all! I was pretty excited to try my assassin with the new promised changes for assassins to be one of the highest dps classes in the game, and bam! we do the same dps as we did before, the swashy's who were crying the most durring the test/beta are out dpsing my assassin consitantly... the only time we have a chance to out dps the other scout classes is when we use our two hardest hitting skillz which have a horrible recast of 5min and 15 min.... i dont understand that at all, everyone knows that another tank class besides the berzerker can out dps us? the bruisers [Removed for Content] they have a skill called devastating strike or somthine that i have personally seen hit well over 11k dmg... recast is 5 mins for them and there is no stipulation one them having to be stealth, or be flanking or be behind the target.... and thats a lvl 35 skill for them... i dont know what gives berzerkers so much dps but they own everyone i have seen play even warlocks in groups, raids they might be a little behind those warlocks and wiz but other then that they seem to be the highest dps in the game melee wise and they were heavy armor.... insane! so note to assassins dont bother with any duels with bruisers or berzerkers... another thing that gets under my skin is the fact we have no skillz that help our str... str is the main thing for us for dps since revamp and our self buffing skillz ONLY BUFF AGI whats up with that.... i dont need to be super effective at avoiding mobs... needless to say SoE's promises on fixing our dps has failed, and i'm not real motivated on playing my assassin or the game at this point!</P>

[Kokus]

<DIV>updated post with Mask of Night data.</DIV>

[Gerrie]

<div></div>hell on nearly every board of all classes you see so many people whining, and everybody you meet ingame and whom you have known to do awesome dps before the combatchanges still shines ingame and is all happy. the assasins i know from my server who have constantly hit over 300 dps on normal heroic encounters before the combatrevamp are still  quiet happy with their dps after the revamp and actually say they got some love. if you dont like "^^ + ^^" encounters just go somewhere else and do the "^^^" mobs. i dont suppose most of the raids will be huge "aoe" fights allthough i dont know about that one, those i have yet seen past 50 appear to be single or only a few adds. maybe something isnt in place with you guys, but seriously not all classes can be broken. <div></div><p>Message Edited by Gerrie on <span class=date_text>10-03-2005</span> <span class=time_text>05:19 PM</span>

[Tealdea]

<div></div>WE OWN MAGES IN DUELS!!! I just wanted to say that... <div></div><p>Message Edited by Tealdeath on <span class=date_text>10-03-2005</span> <span class=time_text>06:26 PM</span>

[Kimira]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gerrie wrote:<BR> hell on nearly every board of all classes you see so many people whining, and everybody you meet ingame and whom you have known to do awesome dps before the combatchanges still shines ingame and is all happy.<BR>the assasins i know from my server who have constantly hit over 300 dps on normal heroic encounters before the combatrevamp are still  quiet happy with their dps after the revamp and actually say they got some love.<BR>if you dont like "^^ + ^^" encounters just go somewhere else and do the "^^^" mobs.<BR>i dont suppose most of the raids will be huge "aoe" fights allthough i dont know about that one, those i have yet seen past 50 appear to be single or only a few adds.<BR>maybe something isnt in place with you guys, but seriously not all classes can be broken.<BR> <P>Message Edited by Gerrie on <SPAN class=date_text>10-03-2005</SPAN><SPAN class=time_text>05:19 PM</SPAN><BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>No, this one is.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Well, it's not that we're broken.  But not we're we should be.  Please read what people post.</DIV>

[Mishtar99]

<P>  Just curious, has a dev even responded to any of our posts in the scout/assassin forums? I do not remember ever seeing a post by any dev to any of our posts in here. Would be nice if we had something telling us that they atleast read this stuff.</P> <P> </P> <P>Mish</P>

[SmEaGoLLuM]

No they are too busy posting stuff like this hehe http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=Non-Gameplay&message.id=190956#M190956 <div></div>

[pist]

I recall when DoF went live, see invisibility was supposed to mean "see invisibility" - with no level stipulations. In dueling a swashbuckler tonite, when I dropped into any of my (horribly gimped) stealths he could see through them.  When I used "Hunt", which is supposedly a scaling stealth with a see invis modifier on it - I could not see him in his stealth, despite being 3 levels above him. --- DPS I'd like to see better, and I've always been irked about resists and all that - eh, [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] I can live with.  One thing that [Removed for Content] me off about the changes though was that they COMPLETELY nerfed all our awesome stealths.  The run speed one?  That was great!  Stack sprint and some jboots on it and you're movin 90+ run speed.   When you upgraded your stealth you could even sneak by some red mobs.  Now though, you're lucky to get by even half of the orange ones.  Thats bull[expletive ninja'd by Faarbot].  We're Assassins - masters of stealth, hard hits, and deception. <div></div>

[Forsaken_God]

<DIV>The only way an assassin can be happy with the changes is if they are clueless. They see that some things have been uped and we do alittle better than we did before combat revamp. I was actually happy with the changes at first but then I decided to see how I compare to other classes. Thats when I found out how bad we really were. We are a tier 2 dps class, with no utility. We have timers on damage skills that other classes have no timers on skills that are comparable. Our dps is nothing compared to other tier 1 dps classes.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>We arn't just complaining about a class that is alright but we think we should be alittle better. We are complaining about a broken class. We ARE broken because of our broken proc rates, tier 2 dps when we are SAPOSE to be a tier 1 dps class and or horible AoEs.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I wouldn't have a problem with our AoEs if we were the best class at single target mobs but we arn't. We can't even compare to tier 1 dps classes in either single target dps and multiple target dps. This isn't an over exaggeration either. We are a broken CLASS.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Epic raid instances have LOTS of AoE fights.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>O and we do own mages in duels! =P</DIV>

[Demonskill]

Well what im thinking is that, since we are tier 1 class, they should really up our skill dmg. When i say up, i mean MoN, Punchblade hits up to 1k dmg, Gorestrike 2k range, DeathBlade 5k with 1 or 2 mins timer, Assassinate 10k with 5 mins timer. and our frontal CA should +500 dmg to all of those skill.You might think i am crazy. But hey, we are Tier 1 DPS class. To become Tier 1 DPS i mean we should have WAAAAYY higher dmg CA than now, i mean WAAY higher. Giving us 100 more dmg on a skill dosen't help. We are DPS, we do BIG BOMB attack from the back, not scratching the mob's skin and fur.Giving us those dmg will not make the game unbalance, it will just make us whereever we're stuppose to be, i guess with those changes it should push us up to 400-500dps which is what tier 1 DPS are doing.

[Achar]

<DIV>DPS comparison, I still don't know what the designers use as their baseline encounter for ranking classes. I have not been to every raid mob in the game, since the changes, but I am consistently in the top three. Granted the DPS classes that are four levels above are out damaging me (Levels make a huge difference now), I am not considering in the equation. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Things I would like to see fixed/changed. Apply poison, utility, don't want it, change it to boost my DPS. Lower AE combat art casting times and stop letting non-direct ae break stealth. I want a stealth that will let me be the sneaky, creepy assassin, hence can't be seen, it can have a 60% slow to it. We have another stealth that allows us to keep pace with the Jones'. Any CA that gets blocked, parried, or misses you should be able to reuse within a few seconds, kind of like fizzles.They can have Blade Storm proc (keep the buffs), add the damage to vulnerable strike and that would make me giddy.:smileywink:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The true wet dream change. Give me some ASSASSIN missions/quests. I know, star gazing, huh?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Arch</DIV> <DIV>53 Assassin</DIV>

[Demonskill]

oh 1 more thing, our Mercelliry Villanry whatever name it is, give us 150% DPS increase ok, 18.8% doesn't mean a [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot]. if we are tier 1 DPS, put up some good number and it will do us good. Since other tier 1 class DON'T NEED THAT MUCH SKILL TO PLAY, whereas assassin requires lots of restriction, technique and combo to play well, I demand way higher DPS than now from the efford i pay

[bboymike]

Well obviously we are not getting noticed on this forum, where else can we post besides test about our problem with the assassins class? Our biggest problem is probably our recast timers for probably 50% of our skills, assassinate is should be the most obvious... should be under 3min recast... when a bruiser has the ability to assassinate(Devestating blow or strike whatever its called) that does higher dmg then some of the assassinates i have seen, then something needs to change... they dont have to be in stealth its a 5 min recast! Deathly Blade should be 1min or under.... the spikes in our dps is pretty lame... i dont want to just out dps someone every 15 mins cause assassinate is the only way u can come close to the dps of the other T1 dps... if it hits... i want to be able to out dps almost every fight.... we are pretty gimped in that department... i have been parsed  and its so sad to see urself at mid range after the promise of being on top... all other skill we should have it reduced by 30sec or more cause we have alot of skills over 1 min on recast... this has alot to do with our dps sucking! But I am just complaining to u ppl that cant do anything about it, i dont see any DEV/SOE responses on our forums so they think everythings all good i guess...

[Armill]

We should take are grievances to the test server...than expalin are situation...but someone else should make the inital post, im not very articulate and good with word choice.

[Forsaken_God]

<DIV>Post wherever this is slightly related and put links to this thread. Posts all over the place will atleast let the devs know how badly we need fixing.</DIV>

[Demonskill]

<blockquote><hr>jagdraco wrote:<font face="Arial">A lot of you make great points as to how the assassin class should be improved, but if anyone here was part of EQ1 and used the MONK class, you'll remember that it went from being "teir 1" to a waste of space.  I'm talking up to L65.  It broke my heart that nothing was ever changed with that dps class even though it was very obviously broken.  I am also ashamed when people parse in a fight and I come out in the middle or middle bottom when there are people that just purchased an account from Station or have half [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] characters.  Does anyone remember a time when a patch came out seriously boosting a class from where we stand?  I sure can't.  I don't think there will be a patch stating that the assassin class will have timers changed...blah blah blah.  I think it's time for people to get used to the change and move on.  I hate to say that, and I know it will [Removed for Content] off a lot of you, but historically, that is how it goes.  Anyway, I'm getting my assassin to 55, and then he's on the chopping block "stationexchange.com" This is pretty sad...I guess I'll buy a wiz or warlock.  It must be what Sony wants people to use.  I can't buff others, and I can't outdamage half of the field even though I'm supposed to. Cass 54 Assassin </font><div></div><hr></blockquote>Well i know what you mean, but at least Monk had Feign Death by that time and that is UTILITY, in EQ2 assassin we got NOTHING, so ya~ we should deserve in the highest DPS department

[BlackAdderDr]

Hi.  53 Ranger hear and sad to hear so many sad Assassins.   I have grouped with a few of your brethren and they were amazed at the rangers DPS.  One thing I have noticed is that our bow buff (30% chance to proc 300 dmg at adIII) has a chance to proc poison instead of every 4 secs.  This is the secret to our DPS.  If u had a melee equiv (uber blade flurry)  I think we would come come closer to being equal. Ask a ranger to fight without using that buff and I think u would see that we are nearly the same,  actually u will top us alot. If any of u need to compare notes and are on Nek,  I would be happy to help <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Best Wishes, -Alaulai 53 Ranger of Nektulos <div></div>

[snipes]

<DIV>This has probably been posted in here somewhere but,</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> <P>I think one fix without nerfing anyone or completely reworking the skills would be to just lower the recast time on 3 lines of spells: Gore strike , deathly blade , and assassinate.</P> <P>If I had my wish( though this would probably never happen) recast on gorestrike would be about 15 seconds lower then its current state, Deathly blade be dropped to 2min, and assassinate be made 5 min. That would increase our dps some without taking too much effort to do. Also it wouldn't make assassins over powered because under must fighting except raid mobs you would still only be able to use the 2 big attks maybe once a fight if you kill slow enough.( the 5 min timer would still be large enough that you wouldnt be able to use it every fight or even every other)</P> <P>Another thing that would be nice would be the mask of night skill to automatically turn off attk. Obviously you can make a hotbutton for it but during lag it never seems to turn it off.( works most the time , unless I'm making the hotbutton wrong ? ) </P> <P>Daedan </P> <P>52 assassin unrest</P></DIV>

[HammerHa]

Hey BlackAdderDrop, I talked to you in chat for a brief moment while our server was down today.  I'm going to try and make some noise about the assassin class today because it sucks to see so many people down.  Good Luck all and make sure to respond on  the test page so our class can be heard.

[Sylnt]

<DIV>Boy your guys sure get bent out of shape easy.  Apparently no one actually read my absurd post.  I just stated what SoE provided us from memory.  I thought they had summoners w/dammage pets above us.  Obviously I was mistaken.  How dare I make a mistake on something so life important as an online game.  All I was trying to say was I enjoy playing the class; and if we are not out-dammaging the classes we are supposed to then yes it needs attention.  We should never be able to out-dammage a wizard or warlock so comparisons to them are kind of pointless. I know we should be doing the same dammage as Rangers since they are also predetors.  I even stated that I had run no comparisons myself.  I never said the class was perfect.  I just said from my limited experience with it I enjoyed playing it.  I was agreeing with everyone for gods sake.   Assassins/Rangers should be the highest MELEE dammage output in the game ALWAYS.  Excuse me for trying to back up the Assassin class.  I don't get as worked up about this game as most people.  I pay to play for entertainment, and so far I am entertained.  I prefer not to fall on the ground kicking and screaming when I do not get exactly what I want.  Don't worry I won't try and help the cause anymore.  I am sure you all telling everyone they are stupid idiots will get it fixed in no time. </DIV> <P>Message Edited by Sylnt on <SPAN class=date_text>10-06-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>08:51 AM</SPAN></P><p>Message Edited by Sylnt on <span class=date_text>10-06-2005</span> <span class=time_text>09:03 AM</span>

[Kimira]

<DIV>Raiding last night, 62-64 GX4 Triple Ups, and group AOE mobs.  (Averages go for the same as single target mobs, and AOE mobs, suprisingly.)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Was constantly being out-damaged by our 58 necro and 60 necro, On average of 100-300 dps total. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I averaged 320-450.  They averaged 550-700.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Also offense stance zerker, on average 600 dps.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>(Conjuror not present, but when grouping they would outdamage me on average by 200 DPS)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>O, and of course the ranger was the best dps, and he used like 7% power per ^^^ mob, and I'd use 60%</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>- Something to note.  Monk/Rogues just on average 50-75 DPS below me.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Conjurers/Necros - Supposedly Tier 2 DPS (since they have awesome group buffs/debuffs)</DIV> <DIV>Bezerker/Monk- Supposedly Tier 3 DPS</DIV> <DIV>Rogues - Supposedly Tier 2 DPS</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <P><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN> </P><p>Message Edited by Kimirahi on <span class=date_text>10-06-2005</span> <span class=time_text>11:56 AM</span>

[Handleba]

There is a lot of misinformation about summoners on this thread.  Stroll over to our forums and read some of the posts.  Only browsing through here because this thread was posted by an assassin on our boards. <div></div>

[Kimira]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Handlebars wrote:<BR>There is a lot of misinformation about summoners on this thread.  Stroll over to our forums and read some of the posts.  Only browsing through here because this thread was posted by an assassin on our boards.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>What's the misinformation.

[Handleba]

This statement for one: <span>Just so you know Conjurors/Necros have <u><b>amazing group buffs</b></u>, and <u><b>lots of utility.</b></u> These two statements just aren't true for Necro's. </span><div></div>

[Vuron]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kimirahi wrote:<BR> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>O, and of course the ranger was the best dps, and he used like 7% power per ^^^ mob, and I'd use 60%</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>This is why I don't think lowering our casting timers is going to help our DPS situation.  We have always been a very power hungry class and lowering the timers is only going to make the situation worse.  We won't gain any DPS if we run out of power 1/3 into the fight.</P> <P>I think the way to go is to seriously increase our autoattack damage, give us back our haste, fix our AE's, modify our bow skills, and give significant damage boost to our short recast CA's.</P> <P>I've compared a lot of data pre and post revamp and noticed that I'm now proc'ing a lot less than before because my number of autoattacks are way down.  Pre-revamp, my Cryptic Metallic Coat sometimes did over 1k damage during a single fight, now I'm lucky if it procs twice an hour.  Procs are being resisted a lot more, and this is having an impact, too.</P> <P>On a side note, I'm still happy with the class.  Although I hate to do it, soloing is much easier than it was before, even with the nerf to bow skills.  Grouping is still great fun and I like the way we operate with stealth and backstabs.  I just think we are below where we should be in DPS compared to some of the other classes (just like before the revamp).  I have no desire to quit playing my assassin, but would be much happier if we could get some of these issues resolved.</P> <P> </P>

[Demonskill]

Here is what i remember when my GF plays her necro to level 35ish:Necro can:invis othermod rodpetpet healbuffpower drainall i remember necro, and these already are the utility that assassin don't have. I dont' mean we want those, in reality i don't want any of those at all, i just want DPS.

[Armill]

Us not being able to outdps wizards and warlocks to me is absurd...sure we wear chain...but they are still able to do so much more damage, plus they have utility, where we only got damage and we don't beat them there.

[Demonskill]

<blockquote><hr>Armill wrote:Us not being able to outdps wizards and warlocks to me is absurd...sure we wear chain...but they are still able to do so much more damage, plus they have utility, where we only got damage and we don't beat them there. <hr></blockquote>We also has to walk in close for the risk of getting aggro in melee range.

[Jvaloth]

<P>And I dont know about you guys, but when a caster tanks a mob he seem's to stand up just fine compared to me.  They've got stone skin and other spells that seem to allow them to weather temporary agro just fine. Where as if I get agro,  my health drops in huge chunks.   </P> <P> </P> <P>Ever fight a green ^  heroic?    If you don't have assassinate up this guy will rip you a new one.    Yet my zerker runs up and can beat the same mob down with auto attack and lose less than 1/10th his HPs.     Our ability to mitigate and avoid melee damage is really really subpar.  All we have is damage, period... and its Tier 3 atm.</P> <P>SOE, FIX US.</P> <P> </P> <P> </P>

[Demonskill]

guys, post all ur opinion here in combat test forum where the dev MIGHT look at:http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=comtest&message.id=14484help bump it up

[soulrais]

<P>Fiirst i agree Assassins should be one of the TOP melee dps class, and should out dps most summoner classes. as it is right now your dps is lower then it should be but does not mean summoners are doing more dps then we are expose to.</P> <P> </P> <P>i run parsers alot and i average 350 or so dps 400 if long fight and i push myslef <FONT color=#ff3300>BUT </FONT><FONT color=#ffffff>i also have alot of fabled gear and very high int (360 self buffed) with either all my spells adept 3 or MASTERs. An average equiped/decent spell list summoner should hit 250 dps range. Necros have a few utilitys i agree think conj bring slightly more.   But someone well equiped and knows there class well should be able to push the limits of there class and be in teir 1 dps. In an AoE fight summoners should generaly also out dps assassins. </FONT></P> <P>as far as agro goes and withering dmg not sure on conj with there stoneskin but necros drop fast, 1 mistake or over agro and mob switches to me instead of pet im dead even if green con </P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P>im not trying to put down your class or glorify mine by no means, just simply stating that some the posts on here saying summoners are this godly dps are missing judging us and posting falsifed information </P><p>Message Edited by soulraiser on <span class=date_text>10-06-2005</span> <span class=time_text>08:00 PM</span>

[Forsaken_God]

<DIV>The thing is soulraiser you are not a tier 1 dps class you should never exceed tier 2 dps even if you push you should not beable to push to tier 1. The only way you should be better at AoE fights is if assassins were the TOP single target dps and in return lack multiple target dps.</DIV><p>Message Edited by Forsaken_God on <span class=date_text>10-06-2005</span> <span class=time_text>08:50 PM</span>

[Uglukson]

<FONT size=2> <P>Absolutely. Noone is saying that Assassins don't need a fair tweak upwards to get to their rightful place in tier 1. However some of the data being quoted here for other classes (and I can vouch for necros in particular) is clearly best case scenario peak DPS rather than average DPS. Plus necros just don't have that great a set of group buffs or mob debuffs, they are mediocre. We look great on long fights against single targets, where our pets and DoT spells have the most effect. Put them in other circumstances, in fast fights or where we can't use our dumbfire pets or normal pets properly (we need the back of a mob and/or no AEs just as much as assassins do for those) our DPS looks very much fourth-rate. It's situational - what you're fighting is important.</P> <P>Assassins have a genuine gripe right now. Be careful not to shout nerf at other classes too loud, especially when you're working with misinformation.</P></FONT>

[soulrais]

<DIV>***The thing is soulraiser you are not a tier 1 dps class you should never exceed tier 2 dps even if you push you should not beable to push to tier 1. The only way you should be better at AoE fights is if assassins were the TOP single target dps and in return lack multiple target dps.**</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>in general we should not be teir 1..... BUT a well equiped experiance player should be able to be in tier 1 <FONT color=#ff0000>IF</FONT> they have the spells/gear and play there class to the max.  not saying i should be out dpsing everyone in teir 1,      but i should be able to push myself and have the dps to compair with classes in teir 1 with medium to lower gear and only semi decent skills/spells</DIV> <DIV>If not then why would anyone ever want to upgrade spells/skills or gear if they are stuck at a certain dps Only-- thats they hole reason we had the CC was to make gear and spells worth upgradeing so a master would be better then adept and so on</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Morgand even posted that well equiped players would be able to defeat mobs higher lvl then themself even heroic with fabled gear/ masters (( wish had link to that post ))</DIV> <P> </P> <P><SPAN class=time_text>Agin agree assassins need a dps boost, not trying to downsize u guys just dont like when some ppl downtalk or screem nurf to another class just ot make thereself look better</SPAN></P><p>Message Edited by soulraiser on <span class=date_text>10-06-2005</span> <span class=time_text>09:14 PM</span>

[Kimira]

<DIV>Where the hell is anyone saying necros should be nerfed, I can't seem to find it.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>No one should be nerfed, we should just be buffed. END ~</DIV>

[Armill]

I just hope we get tweaked soon

[Demonskill]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> soulraiser wrote:<BR> <DIV>***The thing is soulraiser you are not a tier 1 dps class you should never exceed tier 2 dps even if you push you should not beable to push to tier 1. The only way you should be better at AoE fights is if assassins were the TOP single target dps and in return lack multiple target dps.**</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>in general we should not be teir 1..... BUT a well equiped experiance player should be able to be in tier 1 <FONT color=#ff0000>IF</FONT> they have the spells/gear and play there class to the max.  not saying i should be out dpsing everyone in teir 1,      but i should be able to push myself and have the dps to compair with classes in teir 1 with medium to lower gear and only semi decent skills/spells</DIV> <DIV>If not then why would anyone ever want to upgrade spells/skills or gear if they are stuck at a certain dps Only-- thats they hole reason we had the CC was to make gear and spells worth upgradeing so a master would be better then adept and so on</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Morgand even posted that well equiped players would be able to defeat mobs higher lvl then themself even heroic with fabled gear/ masters (( wish had link to that post ))</DIV> <P> </P> <P><SPAN class=time_text>Agin agree assassins need a dps boost, not trying to downsize u guys just dont like when some ppl downtalk or screem nurf to another class just ot make thereself look better</SPAN></P> <P>Message Edited by soulraiser on <SPAN class=date_text>10-06-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>09:14 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>mind you even if assassin are well equiped and all adept 3 spells, we still ain't come close to any of the tier 1 classes, and probably nec/conjourer as well.</P> <P>Yes someone said necro are weak and die easily if they get aggro when they solo the mob, but the problem is we dont' even have a "chance" to kill it at all. our stun doesn't work on single arrow up mob, all our frontal CA are [Removed for Content], our 3rd backstab with 1 min recast timer is not even strong (like 1k dmg) and requires positioning and stealth. </P> <P> </P> <P>Honestly, i feel like begging SOE to fix my class now instead of asking for it.</P>

[NerroVI]

If you are going to post on the test thread thats going on, lets try and make it civil and constructive aswell. The only way we are going to get the attention is not thru I quit posts, those don't work.  Threats aren't going to work DEVs and stuff have a immunity to those, the best way to get stuff done, is simply to point out hard and verifiable facts, followed up with ideas and suggestions to make it balanced, don't throw out wild figures, while I compare a wiz 90k to my 7k assassinate I have no reasonable expectation to be able to stand behind a mob on a raid and power dump 30k damage in 5 minutes, well not unless taunt gets alot better and our evasion/surveil lines decrease threat a whole heck of a lot more then it does now, cos even now a random assassinate after the mob is 50% dead <talking simple ^^ ^^^ mobs non epic> I sometimes even after using surveil evasion turn the mob because of the burst. Anyway ideas, balanced, polite, but direct will get the attention of them, even if they dont post today or tomorrow, you can bet they know we are here and as obvious from the test thread and this thread right here, it is not just assassins who know we are far below where we should be, but the other classes even agree, we need to keep them on our side, if we get a troll, ignore it, and don't bust out the flame throwers, if you disagree with something someone posts then disagree with it, but try to do it short to the point and don't distract the attention from the end goal, only way we get this done is to keep pressure on them by posting facts and doing it in a constructive manner.  If you have friends that wana help then group with them, especially wiz warloks rangers bruisers beserkers etc run logged parses find a way to store them not just post last night i was in a group and this class did ### dps and I did ### dps, we need hard data posted to the boards that the devs can take and look at it and see the actual hits misses dodges etc. Now lets get this class fixed! <div></div>

[Scanline]

<span><blockquote><hr>Forsaken_God wrote:<div></div> <div>The thing is soulraiser you are not a tier 1 dps class you should never exceed tier 2 dps even if you push you should not beable to push to tier 1. The only way you should be better at AoE fights is if assassins were the TOP single target dps and in return lack multiple target dps.</div><p>Message Edited by Forsaken_God on <span class="date_text">10-06-2005</span> <span class="time_text">08:50 PM</span></p><hr></blockquote>Why not? I really don't believe in the idea that some classes should have unbeatable DPS just becaused they chose the wanna-be-leet class at the char create screen months ago. The classes that get tier 1 DPS should be the ones with tier 3 utility, and vice versa. Right now necros aren't that uber in the utility department, so I don't see anything wrong with us having good DPS. Furthermore I think some overlap between the DPS tiers should be possible, since this makes the game more interesting and rewards good players. And please remember that our DPS is very much dependent on pets, which can be killed. I have a feeling that our DPS won't be so good when it comes to the end game content. I feel for you assassins, 'cause I used to be in your position until LU13, and I really hope you get your class fixed more quickly than necros got theirs.</span><div></div>

[Mol]

Obviously a slack assassin should be easily beaten by others, but the fact right now is many can work very hard (all our main attacks grey) and still not beat necromancers and other tier 2 dps classes, we really dont compare to tier 1 dps classes and in most cases we expend alot more power for less damage output.

[Urbanna]

<span><blockquote><hr>Handlebars wrote:This statement for one: <span>Just so you know Conjurors/Necros have <u><b>amazing group buffs</b></u>, and <u><b>lots of utility.</b></u> These two statements just aren't true for Necro's. </span><div></div><hr></blockquote>Yup. Necro's utility is limited to FD, rez, useless mod rods, and a health transfer....we basically can only do DPS now.  Also, the 'sustained 300 DPS' of necro pets is utter bullflop. Would be nice though =) Another thing to consider about pets...our best DPS pet is our Assassin pet, which just so happens to have alot of high hits on long timers, which can make some great spike DPS....ironic eh? lol Anyways, I completely agree that Assassins need more DPS, just wanted to point out some disinformation about highly situational DPS.</span><div></div>

[NerroVI]

Useless mod rods that every raid both necros in my guild pass out and casters send <3 the heart messages to the necros hmmm, maybe useless soloing for you but on a raid that consumes alot of power maybe not so useless.  <div></div>

[Urbanna]

<span><blockquote><hr>NerroVI wrote:Useless mod rods that every raid both necros in my guild pass out and casters send <3 the heart messages to the necros hmmm, maybe useless soloing for you but on a raid that consumes alot of power maybe not so useless.  <div></div><hr></blockquote>1 min recast lore items that give about 34 power every 4 seconds in exchange for health over 24 seconds. Also, so you know it takes 2 seconds for me to cast with a 30 second recast...single target. BTW that comes out to 12 minutes to cast just once on 23 people. They used to do 3x's the power, and people loved me for giving it to them, now people pretty much just humor me and take one out of pity when I offer. Also, don't forget the fun of searching through your inventory to find it and having to equip it as well. I think it's pretty useless when the time I spend casting it could be spent doing alot more useful things, like killing the mob or in a dire situation, using one of our actually useful utilities and rezing the dead healer. It's about as usefull as the pet mushroom, because occasionally, he can take a hit for ya. </span><div></div>

[Hawgeous]

<P>Yea I hope we get our DPS fixed soon.</P> <P>The thing that realy concerns me is the lack of replies or comments by and DEV.</P> <P>To many threads and posts not to have any reply IMO.</P>

[Nainitsuj]

<BLOCKQUOTE> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Demonskiller wrote:<BR>Here is what i remember when my GF plays her necro to level 35ish:<BR><BR><BR>Necro can:<BR>invis other <FONT color=#ff0033>- 10 min invis, no better than smuggle, 1 person at a time.</FONT><BR>mod rod <FONT color=#ff0033>- 2 charges at adept 1, 1 stone can not fill 20%, 30 seconds per cast, 1 min reuse time</FONT><BR>pet <FONT color=#ff0033>- DPS, summoner is nothing without the pet</FONT><BR>pet heal <FONT color=#ff0033>- Key word here, <U>PET</U>  200 hp heal, with additional 100 over 4 seconds (that's a single hit at lvl 34)</FONT><BR>buff <FONT color=#ff0033>- resist against disease, self buff (everyone has one) and +20 to all group members int.  That's all we have for buffs.</FONT><BR>power drain <FONT color=#ff0033>- If necro has power drain then assassin has wards and mega heals that compete with clerics.</FONT><BR><BR><BR><BR>all i remember necro, and these already are the utility that assassin don't have. I dont' mean we want those, in reality i don't want any of those at all, i just want DPS.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR><FONT color=#ff0033>Care to try again?</FONT></BLOCKQUOTE><p>Message Edited by Nainitsuj on <span class=date_text>10-07-2005</span> <span class=time_text>08:52 AM</span>

[ranma5]

Just thought I'd point out, assassins don't smuggle, that's swashbucklers.  We get self sneak, that's it.  Thanks for stopping by. <div></div>

[bboymike]

kinda off topic but i think its rather funny that they want everyone to /vote but they dont want to take care of the problems of the main broken classes Guardians/Assassins! Why should i spend my time to help them attain a higher vote rank when they dont even acknowledge there classes problems?

[Endr]

<P>Alright, so a dev has yet to post on this "hot" posting, what's the deal.  I really would love to hear a response to what this post states.  I mean I'm a baby sassin compared to most but this is my class of choice.  I hate to see is get ripped, it's bad enough we got huge recast timers on our better skills.  Least they can do is respond, but anyhow I skimmed the posting and saw no response, thought I'd throw in my 2 cp.  I haven't quite noticed the dps loss this board talks about but I notice I get beat down a ton quicker than I used to and if I'm getting beat quicker and not getting the dps we used to have we're doomed as a soloing class.</P> <P> </P> <P>P.S.  I'd hate to see Sassins become what Rangers became to EQ1.....I'd rather strip down, get kicked in the groin 1000 times, and sit in a bucket of starved fleas.  Call me crazy =)</P> <p>Message Edited by Endran on <span class=date_text>10-07-2005</span> <span class=time_text>01:09 PM</span>

[Kokus]

<DIV>Let's try and keep the posts on this thread focused on the Assassin class and skills and proposed changes.</DIV>

[Skratttt]

<DIV>Honestly i hope u guys read my post....</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I feel we need to  have long parses of  our +% dps CA, and stances....i dont think they are working or if so they need a boost...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Seriously though  we could fix a lot of this by changing ONE of our  CA lines.........our offensive stance make the proc go off every 3rd atack/CA swing (or enought to boost our dps out of the hole its in) and make it give us a big stat buff like our defensive ...but for offense...so str would be good....honestly that could balance our damage</DIV>

[dea]

To the necro's posting here, I routinely adventure with a necro using his master assassin-type pet. This pet can regularly out DPS me, this takes no effort on the behalf of the necromancer to make this happen. I do not subscribe to the "anyone can be a tier 1 DPS class with the right equipment" the whole idea of tiers negates that argument completely, we are segregated into tiers for a reason -- if both classes are making a concerted effort to deal damage and equipped comparably there should be no chance for a lower tier character to out DPS one from a higher tier. My necro groupmate offers damage spells that can be leveraged w/o closing to melee distance (better for aggro generation, better for getting early hits in during the short battles that we fight), a pet that deals damage on-par with an Assassin wielding t5/t6 fabled equipment, minor heals that have proven surprisingly useful at times. Take away any heals (I can't self heal, why should you be able to heal a pet that does similar damage to myself?)and ranged DPS spells and you still have a pet that can deal more damage than I can. This just doesn't make any sense. I certainly am not asking for a nerf to any class but instead for upward balancing. The extreme damage output of the Wizards/Warlocks, however, may mean that we can never be given DPS like theirs (much less be expected to hold aggro during such DPS fests) and as such the only way to level the playing field would be to reign in the unrestrained DPS of these classes. That would not be my choice, but one that seems thrusted upon the developers by their own unbalanced actions. Should Assassin's be melee Wizards? The answer is yes. But that means more than just an increase in DPS, that necessitates: improved ability to deal damage (fixes to stealth breaking in combat, damage mulitpliers when in stealth to make stealth meaningful), improved damage for all non-stealth combat arts as well, enough aggro management through -threat powers to survive DPS dealing (on-par with Wizard roots that provide capability to avoid aggro in many cases). Do Wizards provide group utility in the form of group buffs that are desirable in battle? Yes. Are Assassins saying that we need such utility in order to be fixed? No. Would we turn down class-flavor powers which provide small amounts of utility? Hell yes if it was instead of a DPS increase, otherwise we'd be thrilled to finally have a flavorful class. <div></div>

[Urbanna]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> deaks wrote:<BR>To the necro's posting here, I routinely adventure with a necro using his master assassin-type pet. This pet can regularly out DPS me, this takes no effort on the behalf of the necromancer to make this happen.<BR><BR>I do not subscribe to the "anyone can be a tier 1 DPS class with the right equipment" the whole idea of tiers negates that argument completely, we are segregated into tiers for a reason -- if both classes are making a concerted effort to deal damage and equipped comparably there should be no chance for a lower tier character to out DPS one from a higher tier.<BR><BR>My necro groupmate offers damage spells that can be leveraged w/o closing to melee distance (better for aggro generation, better for getting early hits in during the short battles that we fight), a pet that deals damage on-par with an Assassin wielding t5/t6 fabled equipment, minor heals that have proven surprisingly useful at times. Take away any heals (I can't self heal, why should you be able to heal a pet that does similar damage to myself?)and ranged DPS spells and you still have a pet that can deal more damage than I can. This just doesn't make any sense.<BR><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>To the assassin posting about other classes that he knows nothing about: stick to talking about what needs to be fixed with your own class, not wild claims about others. We have small heals so we can keep our pet alive long enough to kill the mob, otherwise we die (since we ourselves have no huge nukes, nor unbreakable roots, nor useful stuns, nor charms...nor avoidance/pary/health or mitigation for that matter). Our pets have a very distinct lack of mitigation and health, especially the DPS pets. Our tank pets have more health, but very little DPS. This allows us to solo with the tank pet, and be useful in a group for pure DPS with the DPS pet. Both are a necessary part of a summoner. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>On the 'DPS tier' arguement...please read Moorgards most recent posts about it. He basically says it means nothing. They've specifically gone out of their way to NOT clearly define class roles for this reason...because no one class should always be the best at anything, ever. They want it to be generically, "assassins do DPS, healers heal, tanks tank", but they have also stated that depending on alot of things, a bruiser might be the best DPS or a brigand could be the tank. The DPS teir arguement just isn't a 'rule'...more like guidelines really heh.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>For assassins, from reading your posts it's kinda clear that your biggest problem is that you aren't putting up the DPS you should. Seems like a better thing to post about would be EXACT dps numbers and why they aren't right/how to fix them than complaining about how you can't mez like a chanter, or transfer life like a necro (not everyone is doing this, but it seems to be fashionable).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Anyways, good luck...I hope you all get a 200% DPS increase...wouldn't bother me a bit. (though I might regret that when dying in pvp heh)</DIV>

[Armill]

<DIV>Yarr thats right...cause im gonna make frog legs outta YOU!!!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Lol, but really this is for other assassins to, on are thread in the combat forums if your posting there, don't just bump that thread with a </DIV> <DIV>Bump </DIV> <DIV>Cause, thats a surefired way to get it locked</DIV>

[TinckTrink]

<P>Fair enough Urbannaja, but your misunderstanding Moorgard.  He is trying to demonstrate that a Swashy that focuses on defense (STA, AGI instead of STR) may do better at tanking than a Zerker who is all STR, no STA or AGI.</P> <P>He is NOT, saying that all DPS classes, meaning non-healer, non-tank, non-utilty are going to have huge variances when they are all spec'd the same.</P> <P>My guess is that you do not understand the discrepancy in offensively spec'd classes (same armor, weapon, CA qualities)</P> <UL> <LI>Wiz, Warlock, Necro easily double our DPS on every fight.  Once every 15 minutes, we can match them with Assassinate.</LI> <LI>Bruiser, Monk, Swash, Brigand - all having several utility CA's or abilities will easily out DPS us by 100-200 every single fight.  We will slightly surpase them when Assassinate or Deathly Blade is up every 5 minutes.</LI></UL> <DIV>Scouts are not an easy archtype to play.  Almost all of them have parsers because they need to figure out what works best.  You won't see any of us chatting while we are fighting.  Its impossible.  Given this, WE KNOW, we are gimped.  WE HAVE the numbers to prove it.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Are you saying that every raid should be made up of 3 tanks, 7 healers and 14 Necros?  Sounds fun.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Scanline]

<span><blockquote><hr>TinckTrinket wrote: <div>Are you saying that every raid should be made up of 3 tanks, 7 healers and 14 Necros?  Sounds fun.</div> <hr></blockquote>All that we necros want is that each class should have as much as any other to bring to a raid. You gotta remember that we were in the position that you are in now for months, and only got fixed in LU13, so when you guys are making it look like we have some game breaking DPS and post about it on our forum some people get upset. Assassins sure need to be fixed, but we necros don't wanna pay for that by being nerfed back to where we were. I think everyone should benefit if this discussion was about the problems with assassins and not about necromancers.</span><div></div>

[Jvaloth]

<DIV>" You gotta remember that we were in the position that you are in now for months, and only got fixed in LU13, so when you guys are making it look like we have some game breaking DPS and post about it on our forum some people get upset. Assassins sure need to be fixed, but we necros don't wanna pay for that by being nerfed back to where we were. I think everyone should benefit if this discussion was about the problems with assassins and not about necromancers"</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Whoever went over to the necro forums and posted stuff, you are a tool.  Try focusing on your own class forums to get something done.  Bringing in other classes that are worried they are going to get nerfed because we are complaining only muddles the situation.  That being said,  nice to see you guys got "Fixed". </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>To the necro's coming here and saying you dont do the damage people have claimed you do afer revamp,   I'm sorry but your full of it.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>A level 49 Necromancer was doing 400-450 dps and his pet was doing 180-250  every fight against   level 57 ^ ^ ^ Cyclops.  Not one fight every 10-15 minutes... but EVERY fight.  At 55th assassin, I've got to pull out all the tricks in the book to exceed 450 DPS without Assassinate/Deathlyblade up.  And everythign has got to be perfect as far as mob positioning, my AE's not getting interrupted, etc etc. Where as this alt necro 6 levels below me is able to sustain 400-450 dps against mobs that are orange or possibly even red versus him. He was running the parser and linking it to /g after every fight and laughing because he was out damaging all the 55's in the group.  To add insult to injury, he was a third string alt.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Its like the summoners are coming to this thread trying to dispell our comments so they dont get their butts nerfed.  Its pretty easy to take the high road and not talk about other peoples dps when you are right where you want to be.  But take into considering the fact that we are supposed to be Tier 1 dps. We are supposed to be doing more damage than your class, PERIOD.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>During AE pulls, a conjuror in my guild often says in ventrillo "Just focus on the named, I'll kill the adds in 2 seconds"  and he does.  I can't even get my 1st AE off before all but maybe 1 lucky mob are dead.   I routinely see conjuror/necros camping named in Silent City that would rip me a new one, whether I had both big hitting backstabs up or not.       I mean seriously...  50 second root?  uber snare?  dots?  AE, DD,  mod rods, FD,   a pet that does dmg equivalent to most player characters by itself??   </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Now don't get me wrong, I'm not asking for anyone to get nerfed but when you play an assassin... And you run all over Norrath and see what everyone else can do that you could never in a 100 years dream of doing... Then get into a group where the mobs back is to you the whole time and you are getting out dps'd by every class save for healers....  Its gets a little frustrating. I can post simular stories about every other class in teh game that I've encountered.  Bruisers, these are always fun to talk about. You know.. the guys that can tank better than plate classes, do more dps than assassins, heal themselves and if it was a bad pull they can FD while everyone else in the group dies! haha   Oh hey Mr Wizard,  I hope I'm not interrupting you as you permaroot and kill a ^ ^ ^ yellow named mob!  Hope you enjoy the huge exp and solo loot this provides you!   Hey Mr. Beserker,  I really enjoyed watching you take out 5 yellow con heroics  with your rampage, slaughter, beserker barrage, and stunning roar!  Don't look at me, just 2 of those guys would have killed me in less than 10 seconds.   </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You ask yourself how long have we had to put up with being the worst of all the DPS classes currently in teh game, with no utility, with no soloability,  etc etc etc.    Gets pretty old.     When the combat changes were announced and I saw Rangers/ASsassins in Tier 1 I expected big things.   Initially I was pleased with the dps I felt I was doing, though I was concerned about the long timers on some of our abilities and the long cast times on our AE's.  Then I started parsing and seeing everyone and their mother destroying our DPS and I got down right mad.  When are we going to ascend to our rightful place as Tier 1 DPS?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The below post is a start I guess...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <P>Message Edited by Jvaloth on <SPAN class=date_text>10-07-2005</SPAN><SPAN class=time_text>03:02 PM</SPAN></P> <P>Message Edited by Jvaloth on <SPAN class=date_text>10-07-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>03:02 PM</SPAN></P> <P>Message Edited by Jvaloth on <SPAN class=date_text>10-07-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>03:25 PM</SPAN></P><p>Message Edited by Jvaloth on <span class=date_text>10-07-2005</span> <span class=time_text>03:27 PM</span>

[Tolil]

<P>This is the result from the thread on the CU forum</P> <P> </P> <P>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------</P> <DIV>The cast time on assassin AoEs are being looked at, as are other issues.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Jared and the mechanics folks are reviewing all spells and arts. But rather than look at each class in isolation, abilities are being looked at in light of other classes as well. That is, they aren't rushing in and making a bunch of changes to assassins (or any other class) without first looking at overall game balance.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This approach takes more time, and I realize many folks are anxious to see changes as quickly as possible. But by being methodical in this process, the end result should be better balanced and less susceptible to future revisions.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This applies to all classes, by the way. I realize you want specific details on what we plan to change. However, doing so at this point would be premature until the overall evaluation is complete. No class or ability stands on its own; everything is connected.</DIV> <P>===========================<BR>Steve Danuser, a.k.a. Moorgard<BR>Game Designer, EverQuest II</P>

[Sonic X]

<span><blockquote><hr>Jvaloth wrote:<div></div> <div></div> <div></div> <div>" You gotta remember that we were in the position that you are in now for months, and only got fixed in LU13, so when you guys are making it look like we have some game breaking DPS and post about it on our forum some people get upset. Assassins sure need to be fixed, but we necros don't wanna pay for that by being nerfed back to where we were. I think everyone should benefit if this discussion was about the problems with assassins and not about necromancers"</div> <div> </div> <div> </div> <div>Whoever went over to the necro forums and posted stuff, you are a tool.  Try focusing on your own class forums to get something done.  Bringing in other classes that are worried they are going to get nerfed because we are complaining only muddles the situation.  That being said,  nice to see you guys got "Fixed". </div> <div> </div> <div>To the necro's coming here and saying you dont do the damage people have claimed you do afer revamp,   I'm sorry but your full of it.</div> <div> </div> <div>A level 49 Necromancer was doing 400-450 dps and his pet was doing 180-250  every fight against   level 57 ^ ^ ^ Cyclops.  Not one fight every 10-15 minutes... but EVERY fight.  At 55th assassin, I've got to pull out all the tricks in the book to exceed 450 DPS without Assassinate/Deathlyblade up.  And everythign has got to be perfect as far as mob positioning, my AE's not getting interrupted, etc etc. Where as this alt necro 6 levels below me is able to sustain 400-450 dps against mobs that are orange or possibly even red versus him. He was running the parser and linking it to /g after every fight and laughing because he was out damaging all the 55's in the group.  To add insult to injury, he was a third string alt.</div> <div> </div> <div>Its like the summoners are coming to this thread trying to dispell our comments so they dont get their butts nerfed.  Its pretty easy to take the high road and not talk about other peoples dps when you are right where you want to be.  But take into considering the fact that we are supposed to be Tier 1 dps. We are supposed to be doing more damage than your class, PERIOD.</div> <div> </div> <div> </div> <div>During AE pulls, a conjuror in my guild often says in ventrillo "Just focus on the named, I'll kill the adds in 2 seconds"  and he does.  I can't even get my 1st AE off before all but maybe 1 lucky mob are dead.   I routinely see conjuror/necros camping named in Silent City that would rip me a new one, whether I had both big hitting backstabs up or not.       I mean seriously...  50 second root?  uber snare?  dots?  AE, DD,  mod rods, FD,   a pet that does dmg equivalent to most player characters by itself??   </div> <div> </div> <div> </div> <div>Now don't get me wrong, I'm not asking for anyone to get nerfed but when you play an assassin... And you run all over Norrath and see what everyone else can do that you could never in a 100 years dream of doing... Then get into a group where the mobs back is to you the whole time and you are getting out dps'd by every class save for healers....  Its gets a little frustrating. I can post simular stories about every other class in teh game that I've encountered.  Bruisers, these are always fun to talk about. You know.. the guys that can tank better than plate classes, do more dps than assassins, heal themselves and if it was a bad pull they can FD while everyone else in the group dies! haha   Oh hey Mr Wizard,  I hope I'm not interrupting you as you permaroot and kill a ^ ^ ^ yellow named mob!  Hope you enjoy the huge exp and solo loot this provides you!   Hey Mr. Beserker,  I really enjoyed watching you take out 5 yellow con heroics  with your rampage, slaughter, beserker barrage, and stunning roar!  Don't look at me, just 2 of those guys would have killed me in less than 10 seconds.   </div> <div> </div> <div> </div> <div>You ask yourself how long have we had to put up with being the worst of all the DPS classes currently in teh game, with no utility, with no soloability,  etc etc etc.    Gets pretty old.     When the combat changes were announced and I saw Rangers/ASsassins in Tier 1 I expected big things.   Initially I was pleased with the dps I felt I was doing, though I was concerned about the long timers on some of our abilities and the long cast times on our AE's.  Then I started parsing and seeing everyone and their mother destroying our DPS and I got down right mad.  When are we going to ascend to our rightful place as Tier 1 DPS?</div> <div> </div> <div> </div> <div>The below post is a start I guess...</div> <div> </div> <div> </div> <div> </div> <div> </div> <div> </div> <div> </div> <div> </div> <div> </div> <p>Message Edited by Jvaloth on <span class="date_text">10-07-2005</span><span class="time_text">03:02 PM</span></p> <p>Message Edited by Jvaloth on <span class="date_text">10-07-2005</span> <span class="time_text">03:02 PM</span></p> <p>Message Edited by Jvaloth on <span class="date_text">10-07-2005</span> <span class="time_text">03:25 PM</span></p><p>Message Edited by Jvaloth on <span class="date_text">10-07-2005</span> <span class="time_text">03:27 PM</span></p><hr></blockquote> Your just making crap up, i think it's class envy. PERIOD. 1.)The Assassin pet can draw aggro very easily and dies very easily, it has horrible mitigation, you have to babysit it while it is doing damage otherwise if it dies there goes half of your damage. 2.) 2 of our most high damage DoT spells can be canceled if the mob decides to attack them or you don't position them behind the mob: IE: Pack hounds and Ghastly Corpse. And even this doesn't prevent it. 3.)Tank pet's barely mitigate any damage on anything over blue, and all of our heals as well as pet heals use health. 4.)Umm yea just because a Conjuror has great AE's doesn't mean necro's do. We have like 2 and the life tap one can get you killed very easily if overused, and the life tap component won't save you from dieing. 5.)Our Feign Death spell is on a <b>15 minute timer... </b>6.)Our damage has ALWAYS been high during excessively long fights, in fact before the revamp it was the only saving grace of our class. We have one nuke, we don't have no ice comet equivalent or some BS people seem to think. We have always been able to sustain damage over a long period of time because we could regen power quickly and low cost DoT's. In a short fight against anything easy a wizard or a warlock is always guaranteed to do more because they BURST damage. 7.)Barely anyone uses my mod rod's a.k.a Sacrificial Heart, it is better then the Manastone but people just plain don't like having to equip it into their activate slot and most people don't even realize i gave it to them after i explain it. At Adept 1 it has 2 charges, and it takes a good amount of time to hand them out to the group. Even after telling people so i have like 1 good friend who uses it and a healer who would for emergency's. 8.) Stop making crap up, a 51 necro vs. 57 mob any necro would get resists and the damage pet would probably get aggro then die and we'd have the hate transfer right to us. Hell the caster pet would get resists too. 9.)None of the freaking necro's care about the DPS Tier chart, stop pointing fingers at us because we can actually put damage in on a small fight so now we need to be mr.second-rate everything because something is wrong with your class. Even the dev's stated certain classes may excel in specific situations. If the guy who was trying to garner attention didn't come into our forums and link a thread where people who are crying nerf about us maybe you wouldn't have heard anything out of us. Try learning something about another class before you just assume we have everything perfect.<span>:smileytongue: Wow i can finally cast spells while my pet tank holds aggro so i can solo instead of casting [expletive ninja'd by Raijinn]ty dot's and getting all the aggro and praying i can get it back on pet. I AM DA UBAR KING TIER 0 DPS CHART KANG. I love all these wonderful assumptions about our class, i wonder how come i never get groups because of how super important i am according to some assassin. Give everyone a /kill entire zone button, then we can all lvl and be super cool max supremo. </span> </span><div></div>

[Jvaloth]

<P>Hey Sonic X,</P> <P>-----------------</P> <P>1.)The Assassin pet can draw aggro very easily and dies very easily, it has horrible mitigation, you have to babysit it while it is doing damage otherwise if it dies there goes half of your damage.<BR></P> <P>-----------------</P> <P><STRONG>Ya... I have news for you,  your pet probably has more hps and more mitigation than I do.   So welcome to my world.    Atleast you can recast your pet,  when I die, I have repair costs and debt.  You on the other hand can fall over with Feign Death and live to fight another day if things don't go your way.</STRONG></P> <P>-----------------</P> <P>2.) 2 of our most high damage DoT spells can be canceled if the mob decides to attack them or you don't position them behind the mob: IE: Pack hounds and Ghastly Corpse. And even this doesn't prevent it.</P> <P><STRONG>-----------------</STRONG></P> <P><STRONG>Oh ya, as an assassin I have no idea about positioning issues directly effecting DPS.  hahaha NEXT..</STRONG></P> <P><STRONG></STRONG> </P> <P><STRONG>-----------------</STRONG></P> <P>3.)Tank pet's barely mitigate any damage on anything over blue, and all of our heals as well as pet heals use health.</P> <P>-----------------</P> <P><STRONG>I'm betting your pet tanks better than me, and if I'm soloing, I don't have some skinny dude in a robe tossing heals at me.  I barely mitigate damage on anything over green.   </STRONG></P> <P><STRONG>-----------------</STRONG></P> <P>4.)Umm yea just because a Conjuror has great AE's doesn't mean necro's do. We have like 2 and the life tap one can get you killed very easily if overused, and the life tap component won't save you from dieing.<BR></P> <P>-----------------</P> <P><STRONG>Necros and Conjurors both destroy assassin DPS in both solo and group encounters.   We are both alike then.. in the event that we over agro.. chances are we'll get owned.</STRONG> </P> <P>-----------------</P> <P>5.)Our Feign Death spell is on a 15 minute timer...</P> <P>-----------------</P> <P><STRONG>Our assassinate is on a 15 minute timer! Whats your point? </STRONG></P> <P><STRONG>-----------------</STRONG></P> <P>8.) Stop making crap up, a 51 necro vs. 57 mob any necro would get resists and the damage pet would probably get aggro then die and we'd have the hate transfer right to us. Hell the caster pet would get resists too.</P> <P>-----------------</P> <P><STRONG>Parsers dont lie, nor do I.   The tank was a 58 Paladin and kept agro no problem.  And for the record the necro was 49 and dinged 50 during the grind. The necro and his pet did the numbers I stated...  regardless of your accusations that I am "lying or making crap up".</STRONG></P> <P><STRONG>-----------------</STRONG></P> <P><BR>I'm not making anything up.  Class Envy? Heh no I dont envy your class, I'm [Removed for Content] to hell off that your class which is supposed to be Tier 2 DPS is obliterating assassin DPS.  </P> <P>I learned all I needed to learn by viewing parses.   I could care less what you have to say... because  in the end,  parsers do not lie.</P> <P>I'm not saying necros could do all of what I posted, that was a blanket response to both summoner classes that kick butt equally in different ways.  Necro and Conjuror = Two different ways to annihilate assassin's DPS. </P> <P>If you are saying you can't easily out damage an assassin, you are lying to protect your precious class for fear of being nerfed.  (Don't think they'd nerf you but they dang well better boost Assassins to Tier 1 DPS).  </P> <P>End.</P> <P> </P> <P>P.S. I agree with you that whatever assassin went trolling into other classes forums complaining about assassins was in the wrong.  We don't need all these other classes that have it good now, coming in here and trying to protect their little dps nest egg.  Things also seem a bit more rosey when you're on top of the food chain looking down.   We've been looking up now for sometime, its about time we start cutting achilles tendons and clawing our way out from the pit we're in.</P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P>Message Edited by Jvaloth on <SPAN class=date_text>10-07-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>08:53 PM</SPAN></P> <P>Message Edited by Jvaloth on <SPAN class=date_text>10-07-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>08:56 PM</SPAN></P><p>Message Edited by Jvaloth on <span class=date_text>10-07-2005</span> <span class=time_text>09:09 PM</span>

[Kokus]

<DIV>Enough of this comparison and justification from other classes.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The bottom line is that SoE said assassins are supposed to be tier 1 dps.  This is not what players think, this is what SoE came out and said.  They dropped the ball when it came to assassin dps, and there is no justification for it whatsoever.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Moorgard said that they are looking at our AEs, and other abilities.  That's great news!  Now enough of this crap comparing ourselves to tier 2 dps.  We know we are broken, they know we are broken, and any tier 2 dps class should not justify doing more damage than us, it makes utterly no sense at all.  Let's keep this thread productive torward our abilities and what can be done to improve them and ignore anyone else claiming that assassins are doing what they are supposed to do which is obviously not the case.</DIV>

[soulrais]

this could of been a constructive post to help fix the assassin class but ..... instead to many ppl have turned it into a [Removed for Content] contest  crying hes got more then i do nurf nurf nurf <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Assassins should be teir 1 dps </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>summoners should be teir 2 dps.. but top end players of  teir should be able to reach teir 1 dps same as a slacking teir 1 class should be able to fall to tier 2 dps </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>as far a ungodly dps i run parsers alot and i know how much dps i can do  and one thing ppl always over look on parsers is when it lists dps of summoner classes it is our dps and pet COMBINED and then it lists pet dps agin (example XXXX dps 427 XXXX's pet dps 124 meaning combined the summoner AND pet did 427 dps but pet itself did 124 dps---- u dont add them together like most think</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>wish ppl would stop useing other classes saying they need nurfed and such just so they can get there class fixed --- took us forever to get summoners finnaly where we should be spend months at bottom of food chain</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>post the numbers of your skills,  dps in fights, timers, and your SUGGESTIONS to <U>FIX</U> your class not how to bring another one down</DIV> <P><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN> </P> <P>Message Edited by soulraiser on <SPAN class=date_text>10-08-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>01:20 AM</SPAN></P><p>Message Edited by soulraiser on <span class=date_text>10-08-2005</span> <span class=time_text>01:22 AM</span>

[Koltur]

Well, I agree. It seems to me that compared to pre-LU13, I have pretty bad damage.I used to be rather unbeatable in damage by all but a warlock or a bruiser during raid situations.Now, I'm unbeatable by a Guardian... unless of course, it's an AE fight with like 15 green, down-arrow mobs...I could care less about other classes, I don't care how much damage, how much this or that, that they do, I'm selfish, and I only care about my own class, and my classes ability (or lack thereof) to be useful not only to myself and my playstyle, but to the raids that I embark on. I think right now, the most useful thing I'd bring to raid would be my wit and charm (of which I lack horribly).I don't have any solid numbers to post or anything of the sort, but I can say from my grinding experiences up to this point (level 57.3 atm), I can say that the only time I can DPS my way out of a paperbag is, if and when, Assassinate, Gorestrike & Deathly Blade are used in conjunction with Concealment. And for that one fight, which I saved those abilities for, I'm pretty good at doing my job. For any other fight, I could be afk and no one would notice, except me.I'm not so sure that simply decreasing the timers on those skills would be the right thing, because I can only imagine the power consumption rates that would cause. If those skills were reduced for casting time, power consumption would play a somewhat big deal, although changing the timers would be a step in the right direction.More or less though, I agree completely with the Original poster, that guy who wrote that, has a much better way of saying something about it then I do.KolturBefallen

[Sonic X]

<div></div><span><blockquote><hr>Jvaloth wrote:<div></div> <div></div> <div></div> <p>Hey Sonic X,</p> <p>-----------------</p> <p>1.)The Assassin pet can draw aggro very easily and dies very easily, it has horrible mitigation, you have to babysit it while it is doing damage otherwise if it dies there goes half of your damage.</p> <p>-----------------</p> <p><strong>Ya... I have news for you,  your pet probably has more hps and more mitigation than I do.   So welcome to my world.    Atleast you can recast your pet,  when I die, I have repair costs and debt.  You on the other hand can fall over with Feign Death and live to fight another day if things don't go your way.</strong></p> <p>-----------------</p> <p>2.) 2 of our most high damage DoT spells can be canceled if the mob decides to attack them or you don't position them behind the mob: IE: Pack hounds and Ghastly Corpse. And even this doesn't prevent it.</p> <p><strong>-----------------</strong></p> <p><strong>Oh ya, as an assassin I have no idea about positioning issues directly effecting DPS.  hahaha NEXT..</strong></p> <p><strong></strong> </p> <p><strong>-----------------</strong></p> <p>3.)Tank pet's barely mitigate any damage on anything over blue, and all of our heals as well as pet heals use health.</p> <p>-----------------</p> <p><strong>I'm betting your pet tanks better than me, and if I'm soloing, I don't have some skinny dude in a robe tossing heals at me.  I barely mitigate damage on anything over green.   </strong></p> <p><strong>-----------------</strong></p> <p>4.)Umm yea just because a Conjuror has great AE's doesn't mean necro's do. We have like 2 and the life tap one can get you killed very easily if overused, and the life tap component won't save you from dieing.</p> <p>-----------------</p> <p><strong>Necros and Conjurors both destroy assassin DPS in both solo and group encounters.   We are both alike then.. in the event that we over agro.. chances are we'll get owned.</strong> </p> <p>-----------------</p> <p>5.)Our Feign Death spell is on a 15 minute timer...</p> <p>-----------------</p> <p><strong>Our assassinate is on a 15 minute timer! Whats your point? </strong></p> <p><strong>-----------------</strong></p> <p>8.) Stop making crap up, a 51 necro vs. 57 mob any necro would get resists and the damage pet would probably get aggro then die and we'd have the hate transfer right to us. Hell the caster pet would get resists too.</p> <p>-----------------</p> <p><strong>Parsers dont lie, nor do I.   The tank was a 58 Paladin and kept agro no problem.  And for the record the necro was 49 and dinged 50 during the grind. The necro and his pet did the numbers I stated...  regardless of your accusations that I am "lying or making crap up".</strong></p> <p><strong>-----------------</strong></p> <p>I'm not making anything up.  Class Envy? Heh no I dont envy your class, I'm [Removed for Content] to hell off that your class which is supposed to be Tier 2 DPS is obliterating assassin DPS.  </p> <p>I learned all I needed to learn by viewing parses.   I could care less what you have to say... because  in the end,  parsers do not lie.</p> <p>I'm not saying necros could do all of what I posted, that was a blanket response to both summoner classes that kick butt equally in different ways.  Necro and Conjuror = Two different ways to annihilate assassin's DPS. </p> <p>If you are saying you can't easily out damage an assassin, you are lying to protect your precious class for fear of being nerfed.  (Don't think they'd nerf you but they dang well better boost Assassins to Tier 1 DPS).  </p> <p>End.</p> <p>P.S. I agree with you that whatever assassin went trolling into other classes forums complaining about assassins was in the wrong.  We don't need all these other classes that have it good now, coming in here and trying to protect their little dps nest egg.  Things also seem a bit more rosey when you're on top of the food chain looking down.   We've been looking up now for sometime, its about time we start cutting achilles tendons and clawing our way out from the pit we're in.</p> <div></div> <p>Message Edited by Jvaloth on <span class="date_text">10-07-2005</span> <span class="time_text">08:53 PM</span></p> <p>Message Edited by Jvaloth on <span class="date_text">10-07-2005</span> <span class="time_text">08:56 PM</span></p><p>Message Edited by Jvaloth on <span class="date_text">10-07-2005</span> <span class="time_text">09:09 PM</span></p><hr></blockquote> 1.) My pet doesn't mitigate any damage above anything blue period, healing the assassin pet, keeps it alive for what 2 more seconds? Any damage it takes goes directly to it's health and healing comes directly from mine. And yea i might be able to FD, but its on a 15 minute timer, which means AFTER i get up i must wait 15 minutes before i am able to use it again. There have been Numerous times when I've died when it was not up or from a  DPS pet gaining to much aggro and having the hate transfer to me. 2.)Next? LOL huge difference between pack hounds and you going into stealth and using a back stab. The main one has a pretty long reuse timer for some super damaging spell and i have it at adept 3. Cast it at the wrong time or angle and it dies and there goes your chance at doing damage with them. 3.) Hey if you want a healer join a group, contrary to popular belief our tank pet's aren't these unstoppable soloing machines, damage is lowered when it is in defensive mode and it must be constantly healed, heal it too much at the wrong time mob comes after me while im low from healing the pet. So for the ability to have something take the damage for us our DPS is lowered because of it, you'll never see me kill stuff as fast as a wizard or warlock. 4.)That wasn't really the point, my point is most necro spells are focused on single target damage. 5.)Heh, read #1 FD doesn't always save the day. 8.)Uhh sorry my 51 necro has all adept 3's and unless some high level guy was seriously debuffing the mob resist would lower my damage output or any mages severely. Even if i was going all out trying to go full damage it's impossible i wouldn't pull aggro off any tank. I don't care what your parser says most of them don't even count all of our spells properly let alone pet damage towards are own. I love how everyone HAS to fit into this [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] chart when the devs simply stated it was a guideline for where people should be. We were before and will always be a SUSTAINED DPS CLASS. Anytime we fight something that has allot of HP'S we can constantly keep doing damage over the long period, we did before and no one screamed and now because we can get a few spells in before a warlock or wizard blows it up we're over powered? You guys have had it bad? LOL EVERYONE HAS, another case of the grass is always greener on the other side. Almost every week they make some silent tweak to our pet's and spells because suddenly having a pet has ya know a purpose besides being a dot with a graphic. You wouldn't be happy until your the only class able to do damage period. Fear of being nerfed heh, few days ago suddenly my pet started taking more dmg hmmm... Things rosey heh, maybe you should read the necro board sometime. Believe what ya want, no matter what SOE does some one will still have a chance to out DPS someone else PERIOD. Stop pointing fingers at other classes, all this complaining about summoners but nothing about sorcerer's, oh woops gotta follow a chart and not be allowed to out damage the almighty assassin, ranger, wizard, or warlock. We get some utility but... oh wait i was going into a rant about unbalanced stuff and the whole grass thing. And no the only reason people came here was someone linked this thread and saw the 85% post about NERF SUMMONERS,  like ya'll wouldnt do the same if rangers complained you could do too much. </span><div></div><p>Message Edited by Sonic X on <span class=date_text>10-08-2005</span> <span class=time_text>11:41 AM</span>

[Kokus]

<DIV>That's fine, whatever.  Enough of this pointless bickering.</DIV>

[Dup]

Necros with [Removed for Content] problems, please stop posting in this thread. kthanks <div></div>

[Jvaloth]

<P>If only /ignore command worked on the forums.</P> <P> </P> <P> </P>

[Gerrie]

200% dps increase certainly wouldnt be bad.assasin friend of mine constantly parses between 400 700 dps, 200% increase would be 1200-2100 damage per second <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />=

[Nainitsuj]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> TinckTrinket wrote:<BR> <P>Fair enough Urbannaja, but your misunderstanding Moorgard.  He is trying to demonstrate that a Swashy that focuses on defense (STA, AGI instead of STR) may do better at tanking than a Zerker who is all STR, no STA or AGI.</P> <P>He is NOT, saying that all DPS classes, meaning non-healer, non-tank, non-utilty are going to have huge variances when they are all spec'd the same.</P> <P>My guess is that you do not understand the discrepancy in offensively spec'd classes (same armor, weapon, CA qualities)</P> <UL> <LI>Wiz, Warlock,<FONT color=#ffff00> Necro easily double our DPS on every fight</FONT>.  Once every 15 minutes, we can match them with Assassinate.</LI> <LI>Bruiser, Monk, Swash, Brigand - all having several utility CA's or abilities will easily out DPS us by 100-200 every single fight.  We will slightly surpase them when Assassinate or Deathly Blade is up every 5 minutes.</LI></UL> <DIV>Scouts are not an easy archtype to play.  Almost all of them have parsers because they need to figure out what works best.  You won't see any of us chatting while we are fighting.  Its impossible.  Given this, WE KNOW, we are gimped.  WE HAVE the numbers to prove it.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Are you saying that every raid should be made up of 3 tanks, 7 healers and 14 Necros?  Sounds fun.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>This post is horse sh*t and you know it.  Every fight?  No.  Named fights and raid mobs? It's possible.  MOST FIGHTS I have enough time to cast my AoE life tap, send my pet in and begin casting my single target life tap.  I might have enough time to cast my other AE spell.  It's a rare occasion when I do.  </P> <P>Instead of looking at your parses and picking out the longest battle of the day to prove your point, why not do a total average then compare?  Afraid of the results you will see?  The necromancers know what the result will be.</P> <DIV>You want us to stop posting in your forum?  Quit making stuff up and trying to peddle it off as proof.  Don't post in our forum asking for help with your class then try to derail our class.  Yes, we might be able to out damage you sometimes, but it's extreamly situational.</DIV><p>Message Edited by Nainitsuj on <span class=date_text>10-09-2005</span> <span class=time_text>09:59 AM</span>

[Gerrie]

nani why dont you make a long parse yourself with an assasin in the group?i want to see how necromancers do over 1200 dps minimum on every ^^^heroic encounter, as that guy pointed out they do.

[Kimira]

<DIV>Necros are funny, complaining about their class when they have an in-combat rez, heals(Albeit not so great, but you have it), feign, invis, group buffs and are Tier 1 DPS.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Sarkoris]

<DIV> <P>The reason Necromancers are coming here to post on this topic is simple. It was linked to our forums. That being said I see no reason why the issues addressed by the OP should not be adressed. The problem is not that you are not Tier 1 dps. The problem is that your dps is very situational, depends on a lot of things going right (no aoe interrupts dropping stealth, correct almost exacting positioning). The changes to your ca's such as no ranged attacks while moving etc have inhibited your soloing capabilities which needs addressing I agree. The original poster listed a logical presentation of which abilities worked and which didn't which is exactly what the dev's need to see. But posting in other classes forums saying I parsed xyz and he outdamaged me will never get you a correction from a dev but only a nerf of the class you posted. This is why the classes you have mentioned get defensive.</P> <P>So in summary we Necromancers are happy to support your call to have your dps increased if it as deficient as you say (we have to take your work on it as you play that class and are hence the ones to know - not us). If you can increase dps in a wider range of situations its good for you and everyone you group with so of course we support you. Just not at the expense of our own class stability.</P> <P>Sadly, the truth is if you don't want us to bring argument to your house, don't bring the argument to ours. By the way, this was prefixed on a post in the necromancer section with "Don't get offended". I for one was not offended at all, just confused what we had done to the Assassin community to warrant such scathing attacks.</P> <P>Sark.</P> <P>Level 54 Necromancer Of Allure / Najena</P></DIV>

[Jakr]

<div></div>alright enough is enough,  pls stop   crying back and forth.  this post was NOT made to  compare assassins to necros, nor was it a /cry nerf another  proffesion thread. it was created to shine some light on whats wrong with our proffesion.  to the people  that keep bringing up other topics and fighting with eachother cut it out seriously.  acting like children. everyone has made their points. if you need to argue more. take it to tells, ingame or   pm's  no one else wants to hear your bs. now then, pls guys stay on topic.  whats wrong with our proffesion ASSASSINS NOT NECROS,  dont whine about anything that  doesnt directly affect us.  beein that necros arent even the same field as us  this was not a fair comparison in anyway. clean this up before  it gets locked. elv and the other assassins  did not post this to have it locked. <div></div><p>Message Edited by Jakron on <span class=date_text>10-10-2005</span> <span class=time_text>12:17 AM</span>

[Tealdea]

<div></div><div></div><span><blockquote><hr>Jakron wrote:<div></div>alright enough is enough,  pls stop   crying back and forth.  this post was NOT made to  compare assassins to necros, nor was it a /cry nerf another  proffesion thread. it was created to shine some light on whats wrong with our proffesion.  to the people  that keep bringing up other topics and fighting with eachother cut it out seriously.  acting like children. everyone has made their points. if you need to argue more. take it to tells, ingame or   pm's  no one else wants to hear your bs. now then, pls guys stay on topic.  whats wrong with our proffesion ASSASSINS NOT NECROS,  dont whine about anything that  doesnt directly affect us.  beein that necros arent even the same field as us  this was not a fair comparison in anyway. clean this up before  it gets locked. elv and the other assassins  did not post this to have it locked. <div></div><p>Message Edited by Jakron on <span class="date_text">10-10-2005</span> <span class="time_text">12:17 AM</span></p><hr></blockquote>/clap /nod Oct. 11, I am now the only 50+ assassin in my guild whose been on more than 1 day (15 days and climing)... About the only thing that works out for me lol, Assassin master's to me (not like they're badarse anyhow)</span><div></div><p>Message Edited by Tealdeath on <span class="date_text">10-11-2005</span> <span class="time_text">03:47 AM</span></p><p>Message Edited by Tealdeath on <span class=date_text>10-11-2005</span> <span class=time_text>03:47 AM</span>

[KapHn8d]

<P>It makes me sad to see so many of my assassin buddies on Mistmoore abandon their toons. I know of so many that either adopted an Alt as their new main or simply rolled a different class due to this issue. *sigh*</P> <P> </P> <P> </P>

[Kokus]

<DIV>Update on test, with assassins being untouched.</DIV>

[NerroVI]

I dont think we will see anything major till maybe LU17 possibly LU18 might see a little tweak here and there before that, but I have a feeling it will be atleast 2 months before anything groundshaking happens, they will have to test etc before just tossing out anykind of mass DPS fix because if taunts and aggro buffs etc dont keep up all we will be is dead toons who just got more DPS =p <div></div>

[judged_one]

LOL Love the scritchy part.That stupid lucky rat keeps winning fat loot on raids that I couldn't attend.Great post. Have been posting on the combat changes feedback section to give SOE some pressure. Seriously, this assassin issue is getting old, and I am on the blink of quitting or re-rolling, Well I have 2 lvl 20 toons (Druid and Mezzer)Which one you guys think I should lvl up, if we don't get fix by Christmas.or any other cool MMORPG coming up?

[NerroVI]

Im in process of making a Mystic and also have a bruiser <cough 6 hours played lvl 19 cough cough> that is just tearing thru mobs like a warm knife thru butter.  I also got a warlok but I really didnt wana be a finger wagler in EQ2 or a healer i wanted to be a assassin =x  So I still am holding on to the hope they will get to us SOON ie QUICKLY /poke poke nudge nudge devs mechanics ppl =p <div></div>

[Demonskill]

necro and conjourer is not a bad choice too <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[WhispersEdge]

Well heres the problem with just saying this is an assassin issue. My assassin is 60 my conj is almost 60, and at level 53 I was outdpsing Entreri on my conjuror. Now you can say fix us to be tier one but you need to understand how much damage the summoner classes are doing to give us some sort of dps increase. To make tiers you need things to be <u><b><i>relative to one another</i></b></u>. You cant just post this and say fix our dps without saying how much more dps we need to be doing. You do realize that for me to outdps my conjuror my dps would have to basically double? I dont think theyre going to do that, and summoners <b><i>do</i></b> need to be nerfed imo. I hate calling for nerfs on other classes but.... My air pet autoattacks for over 400 with a coercer in the group. Do you see how stupid this is? Im talking dual wield, then I toss on blazing presence (only 45 sec recast) and the pet starts dropping each hit of 300-400 and every time it hits proc'ing a fire proc (100% chance proc) to do 350-600 dmg a hit. So every hit with that buff on is about 600-1k damage *<i>per hit</i>*. If you dont believe me, (dev or player) come make a toon on Mistmoore, and you can come parse it for yourself. I regularly churn out 500dps minumum, thats is absolute minimum. With modrods and good power regen I can sustain this indefinately. This is on top of all the group buffs, coth, proc buffs, modrods, dmg shield to the MT I already give on top of this. So my question is, why play assassin? Bingo, im not, till they fix this. So you can say<i> just focus on assassin issues</i>,<u><i><b> but you have to understand where everyone else stands in relation to us in any kind of tiered dps ranking</b></i></u> or we are just going to get a crappy dps increase and assassins will<i> still be second rate yard trash</i>. <div></div>

[Jvaloth]

<DIV>Bingo.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>People have mentioned multiple times in this thread not to mention other classes, to focus on the assassin.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>But in order to truely understand how pathetic assassins are,  you need to know just how much insane damage virtually every other class in the game is doing.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>In order to boost us to Tier 1 dps they need to do alot of reworking on our cast times, refresh rates and power consuptions.   For us to get to Tier 1 they need to bump us substantially if not almost double our dmg output as the previously eluded to.    What I suspect they'll do instead is give us some more dps and nerf down some of the other classes that are blowing our dps away when they shouldnt be.  The combination of the two moves would boost our dps, lower our competitions dps and put us in Tier 1 above those supposed Tier 2 classes.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>But given the [Removed for Content] poor track record in regards to assassins,  I'm not putting money on it.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Demonskill]

<DIV>updated my combatstats to 2.58 newest version, prased today in group, been doing avg 240 dps per fight, this is seriously [Removed for Content] me off...</DIV>

[Gorhauth]

<span><blockquote><hr>WhispersEdge wrote: You do realize that for me to outdps my conjuror my dps would have to basically double? I dont think theyre going to do that, and summoners <b><i>do</i></b> need to be nerfed imo. I hate calling for nerfs on other classes but.... <div></div><hr></blockquote>That is part of the problem.  To outDPS the rogue classes, my DPS would almost have to double also (swashy two levels below me doing about 700 a fight, I was doing about 400 a fight - same idea with the brigand but didn't keep the numbers).  That is how telling the problem is, not that we are getting worked over by other classes that we are suppose to be beaten, but by how much they are beating us.</span><div></div>

[Trei]

<div></div>Which of course would come down to the question:  is any class supposed to do that much damage? Could <i>we</i> infact be the only balanced ones and actually at the intended Tier 1 range of damage and all the others are not? If our DPS are boosted to above the summoners/brawlers/rogues with no other tweaks... what happens to mob balance? <div></div><p>Message Edited by Trei49 on <span class=date_text>10-15-2005</span> <span class=time_text>08:25 AM</span>

[Demonskill]

i can imagine in the near future, all mob will die in 5 secs after they being pull to group caused by their HP is being reduced heh

[Aienaa]

<P>I'll have to run my parser, but I was playing my friends Troubador the other day (I also  have a 45 Troubador of my own, so I do know how to play the class)....  Anyways, she is level 59 and I was helping to grind her to 60 while she is gone for the weekend...  Troubadors get a really nice spell at level 55 ( either 55 or 58 Ancient Teaching) called Precision of the Maestro...</P> <P>Here is how I worked it....  I threw on all the +INT gear she had on her, since INT increases spell damage... I had Aria up (30% chance to proc roughly 450+ damage on any offensife spell cast) and then every 3 mins I would use Precision (100% chance to proc roughly 400+ damage on any offensive spell cast)....   Both of these spells work on all group members....</P> <P>Granted, we did not have any other class in the group that could buff my INT, so I just had self buffs on... I only had my INT up to about 290, so I still had a long ways to go before I hit the cap, meaning I could have increased damage even more....</P> <P>We were up just outside of Ancient's Table in PoF...  When Precision would refresh, our tank would run and pull usually 2-4 groups of level 58-59 Cyclops... Once the mobs got back to the group I would hit Precision and everyone would go AE spell happy....  Precision only lasts 1 minute and all of the mobs would be dead, sometimes had to pull another group to finish off Precision, before the buff was gone.... Needless to say, after that 1 min Precision buff, we generally had lots of bodies we had to loot and a decent chunk of exp in level 59 to boot...</P> <P>I'll have to run the parser tonight, but I am sure that it will read well over the 600+ DPS range...  Precision is a 1 min buff with a 3 min recast...  This means you can run this buff for 1 min out of ever 3, so only 2 mins where you would not be able to have it up...</P> <P>If this parses out the way I believe it will, then this means that for 1 out of every 3 mins Troubadors will be far above our DPS, and if I remeber right, they were suposed to be Tier 3 on the DPS table....</P> <P>Just another example of understanding other classes DPS compared to our own and where this puts us in the DPS food chain....</P> <P> </P> <P>Gwern - 60 Assassin</P>

[Jvaloth]

<P>Haha jesus...</P> <P> </P> <P>Yet another example of how lopsided the dps charts are in favor of other classes.</P> <P> </P>

[Aienaa]

<P>Ok, ran the parser today...  While I was using Precision of the Maestro, I was recording DPS in the 800-1200 range where mid 900's were the norm....</P> <P>I do need to make 1 correction to the info I posted before...  It's a 4 min recast, not 3 min....</P> <P>Just a little comparison....   when I have all my high damage  stealth attacks up, I can get to around 750 DPS (have not really been pushing for extream DPS though).... But I can only do this once every 15 mins....</P> <P>The Troubador I played, can not only exceed my Assassin's DPS, but can do it once every 4 mins....  Keep in mind that I was the one playing the Troubador, and I do not play that class all the time, so I don't know every little trick to get more DPS out of the class....  IE while playing I found I could get more DPS by clicking off my DOT / Debuff songs and reapplying for far superior DPS while using Precision....</P> <P> </P> <P>BTW, Dirges have a similiar song...  the difference is that it adds a proc to every melee hit... It's a 12 second duration and 1 min refresh...  I have not had the opertunity to parse that yet, but it sounds like it has potential for high DPS...</P> <P> </P> <P>Gwern - 60 Assassin</P>

[NerroVI]

Well I was out and around the boards today, happen to see not only a CSR person but a Dev made it into the disscussion on Wardens issues in their little forum to explain what they are working on and currently putting in place for them, was just wondering why is it so hard for someone to simply come over here and give us a idea of what they are planning for us, why cant we get a 2 paragraph post saying, yep were aware of this issue and were going to work on this issue and we know that the timers on your main attacks might need some lowering etc etc. I mean the dev over there and the CSR person say they really look at constructive feedback only and that they respond better to it, and we sit here and put out overwhelming issues and back them up with our trials and tribulations out in the real game and what we go thru nightly and encounter on raids in groups soloing and type and type and post and talk in the assassin game channel about nightly and we don't even rank a general ideas about where were going with assassins post from anyone, I mean if you think were just going to roll over and let posts that contain valuable info just die your nuts, we know what the issues are and we post them and we have been for months now, I think of all the classes in the game we have been far more patient and willing to wait just a bit longer then anyone while still trying to play the actual class as broken as it has been since release. While I am happy other classes are getting fixes rather they think they are for the better or not, they are still getting fixes, and we are still waiting, way it looks atm to me I am basically thinking it wont be LU 15 or 16 maybe we will see something by LU17 but more then likely now I am even starting to think this is going to be another 3-6 month wait and see thing =x <div></div>

[Jvaloth]

<DIV>3-6 months...  We've waited long enough and now they want to have us wait longer?  <taps foot></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>6 months from now Assassins better be GODS of DPS to make up for 1.5 years of complete and utter BS.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Tealdea]

I wonder who pulls the strings at the top of the SoE empire... Do they not realize that no communication and no ETA's are fustrating and making people uncomfortable? We pay for this game, we choose to pay for this game, it is fun to play, so we continue to play. Now that things are becoming more and more of a burden and that fun is fading away. Things that are broken we want fixed and that means classes first please, not my stupid skills window or guild window. Don't put off the more diffulcult coding and programming until later after you've finished the easy stuff (the easiest stuff should be last becasue well... it's easy, duh!) We are not going to pay for this game forever if we lose interests in it, we will not waste more money on something we no longer care for and see that things just aren't moving in a steady straight forward dirrection to making this game better. In other words... <font color="#0000ff" size="5">We expect results... </font> <div></div>

[Hawgeous]

Yea, I did expect results, now I just expect I'll be tradeskilling to help out my friends so they can have fun playing the game.

[dparker7]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Tealdeath wrote:<BR> we choose to pay for this game, it is fun to play, so we continue to play. <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Not anymore.  </P> <P>Horrible customer service on all levels from worthless farmed out GM work, auto response runarounds, poor response on the board that dont even work properly half the time.  </P> <P>A full year of expecting a class to be ontop of the DPS charts and hovering near the middle while I pay for legendary poison and arrows.  </P> <P>Having all our debuffs removed, yet getting nothing but an agro transfer and a proc added.  </P> <P>Continual nerfs to the class despite all our problems.  </P> <P>Its gotten to the point where Im spending more time upset about this class than I am having fun with my friends.  I was already going to reroll another class, but they started talking about screwing guardians and I could see the writing on the wall.  So now, I wonder why I'd want to give them more time.  Its coming up on 12 months we've been paying to beta test this game and Im not even sure that they're going to keep the major things steady.  They want time and patience.  They already got that.  I want action.  Overpower our class so that it needs to be hotfixed.  Nerf it to oblivion.  Remove it from the class tree.  Just do something, and do it now.<BR></P>

[Paragon100]

<P>Yes I can see this issue is a pain for all the assassins now. I have myself left eq2 and my assassin account (level 55) for the past 7 days now for WoW which I just purchased. Untill SOE fixes the game and assassins they wont get my money. Once the institute better looking armor with varied colors, and likewise with weapons, fix fabled loot and the stats of the t6 food/drink and craftables which they did some for LU#15, fix assassin dps to be on the top again and decrease the damage and hp pool of the epic mobs when your level 60 grp cant take a lvl 52 epic pre DoF thats crap.</P> <P>Personally i noticed also on Mismoore where I play that alot of people are leaving weekely to other games, namely WoW and Guildwars till vanguard comes out or EQ2 fixes alot of stuff. Its sad because honestly EQ2 is the best game out right now hands down, if they would just fix their mistakes it would be soo much better. Imagine a game that loks and feels like EQ2 but has the items of WoW, the no fail combines, but keeps the quest part of this game.  The player base of other games in ours? The game would be huge.</P> <P>I hope I can come back to my assassin some day soon, but I hope it doesnt take them too long to fix these problems or I may, as well as others, get too atatched to another game and never come back. =(</P>

[Tealdea]

<span><blockquote><hr>Paragon100 wrote:<div></div> <p>Yes I can see this issue is a pain for all the assassins now. I have myself left eq2 and my assassin account (level 55) for the past 7 days now........</p><hr></blockquote>I've been 52 for about 8 days now, maybe longer, and now I'm a 59 Tailor, 30% from 60... I do nothing but craft for my guild and other players... Just making money... pretty sad, I don't really feel like going out and getting killed by a ^ solo mob or try and go LFG if the guildmates are busy (My guild are the only ones who I group with anyway because I just know the game well, and I'm a cool guy believe it or not.. Im just a bit blood thirsty >=)</span><div></div>

[Cassius6]

<div></div>...now they closed the Test:"Combat and Spell Changes - Feedback" Board... SOE I have no clue what is going on with you... no answer to the Assassin-Thread and then you are closing the whole Board. Do you think thats funny to write you down the whole problem of the assassin-class again and again and again... and at the end you are ignoring it. <div></div><p>Message Edited by Cassius666 on <span class=date_text>10-20-2005</span> <span class=time_text>02:56 AM</span>

[Vumuud]

<DIV>LvL 40 assassin here..Just starting to see what you guys have been saying for along time. :smileysad: I can solo pretty well at 40 but have noticed a few other classes just destroying the same mobs but a few lvls less than me. No wonder why I dont see some certain classes group at all when they can blow thur yellows^ and ^^ all day. I really think they need to reduce the timers and add some frontal attacks that do good dmg. Why not give assassins another stun or dizzy attack also so we can get behind the mob more than 2x a fight when we solo?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Armill]

Whats funny is how SoE really doesn't seem to care. I've been observing this kind of trend. A post about brusiers thats only 20 posts long gets a response. Are assassin post only got a response when it was almost 100 posts long. Even than that was about are AE's. This post has gotten none and I'm feeling great animosity towards SoE now.

[Demonskill]

if next LU doesn't have assassin update im thinking of quiting the game

[Trei]

<div></div>["... Once the institute better lo... ... for LU#15, fix assassin dps to be on the top again and decre..."] What do you mean.. <i>'again'</i>.. ? When were we ever on the top before? edit:   oh yeah... during combat revamp beta, <i>right up to the day before</i> it hit live servers, I remember now. <div></div><p>Message Edited by Trei49 on <span class=date_text>10-20-2005</span> <span class=time_text>08:55 AM</span>

[Stormwitt]

Looks like the assassin class was nerfed, and continues to be nerfed, on purpose then. Why? No wonder the devs closed the combat test feedback board. No wonder they wont show up on our board. Too many hard questions for them. They will not show up here either. If they show up and are asked why the beta changes did not go live what are they to answer? That they did not work? That the assassins were overpowered? Well if assassins were in fact overpowered during beta was the correct answer to that problem to nerf the class to tier 3 status when going live? Don't think anybody would agree that is the correct answer. But that is what happened. Yet the devs have still not managed to get it right and fix assassins. Again the question is why. Again I doubt the devs can come up with a satisfactory answer. Yet at the end of the day I doubt few people really care about the answer. People simply want the class to be fixed. The damage to the credibility of the game developers is already done. There is only one way for them to make up for it. Fix the assassin class.

[big da]

I dont know about the rest of you but don't you hate when you have these wizards warlocks rangers and such parsing the fights in game.Embarrasing to see my assassin down the list. I'm only medium well equipped. Chalandria s fang my main hand weapon with self buffedstr over 200 but the only time he gets his name up there is if i use assassinate. Of course they mostly dont show that round <span>:smileywink:</span>Truth is what with our highly positional attacks it s pretty hard to match damage with other DPS classes. Nothing worse than hitting a bowshot and oops im not quite flanking the target so nothing....I'm not sure what the answer is. Maybe remove the positional situation for our bow attacks. I  mean do i really need to be behind the mob to hit him in the head. Seems an eye shot would be more damaging. I mean at least we could take a couple shots while we get in posttion.Maybe the only two strikes that need to be stealthed and from behind are our two biggest damagers. I dont think that would make us overpowered.Just a thoughtNikodimusLvl 55 assassinNajena<div></div>

[Hawgeous]

I don't wish anything bad on any other class but man it ticks me off to see a DEV response to other class problems after two or three posts. <p>Message Edited by Hawgeous on <span class=date_text>10-20-2005</span> <span class=time_text>01:43 PM</span>

[Kokus]

small addition to the end of the original post.

[Lagge]

<DIV>If we need stealth and positional attacks then it should imho boost us to the top of the dps charts.  No other classes need this, no other classes (bar rangers I guess, who imo shouldnt use poisons being of "good" class) have to pay to get their DPS in the form of poison (which costs a fortune), no other class has to pay for arrows to use some of their big attacks.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Our damage totally depends on all of the above.  So many times ive hit stealth attack or ran back for a bow shot and some numpty (usually if we have a swashbuckler in the group) pulls WAY too much aggro and makes the mob turn which kills off any flank attacks I was about to do = dps bottom of the chart.  This is really bad when you stand back for a bow shot only to get the message that you should be behind the mob, all the time backing off and hitting your bow attack just totally wasted...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I still dont see any need to log into the game, 2 weeks with no groups and a week of not even bothering logging in.  Fun...</DIV>

[Hawgeous]

<DIV>Just a few changes I've seen playin an assassin.</DIV> <DIV>1. most all CAs now require position, didn't use to be this bad when some were non positional.</DIV> <DIV>2. rooted mobs can now turn, this one makes me red in the face when I go through the steps to pull off a decent stealth attack and see the mob looking me in the eyes when I hit the button.</DIV> <DIV>3. all real sef haste for our class is gone, yes we have some but are they even worth using?</DIV> <DIV>4. we have an out of combat stealth that is the same as our in combat but we can't attack when using it, why have it, yes the insta stealth is nice some times but I use in 1 out of every 20-30 times I stealth. Oh yea, it blows when grouping, to get hit by AOEs and never get a stealth hit off.</DIV> <DIV>I could go on but as has been stated before, most of our CAs took a hit through the CU and I think the hardest thing for me is each time a change is pushed to live it has some negative impact on this class.</DIV>

[Tealdea]

Hmm... Been 2 weeks nearly... Still no adventure exp... only crafting, level 60 now, stuck at 52 assassin... Just don't feel like going out with the hassle of killing when your so gimped (I was 2x my dps before the combat changes, invyed by my assassin friend who has quit his 50 assassin and 50 templar) <div></div>

[Paragon100]

<P>I can understand your frustration!</P> <P>I havent played my assassin in 2 weeks now. I wont reopen that account till they fix the assassins dps. Untill then Ill keep playing WoW because its the only other thing out there next to EQ2 in my opinion. When they fix assassins, I will come back. IF they ever fix them.</P> <P> </P>

[pczry]

<div></div>if we ever get fixed and out dps rangers or mages, they might end up quitting their toon =D <div></div><p>Message Edited by pczryan on <span class=date_text>10-22-2005</span> <span class=time_text>05:34 PM</span>

[Hawgeous]

Woot, looks like jumpin back on my crafters has paid off, can't wait until my assassin gets some help and is ready to play again.

[judged_one]

Was fighting against guildies in pvp last night.ONCE AGAIN WE ARE [Removed for Content] GIMPED.Once again the briuser kicked everyone around.LU15 Still no fix. [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] is an assassin doing using freaking cheapshot a lvl 6 scout spell.When our stealth attacks is resisted we are screwed in PVP.When someone does DoT we can't StealthWhen someone does true AoE we can't stealthJust 3 more retarted SOE things.FIX THE FREAKING LIST.

[Vumuud]

<DIV><EM><STRONG><U>Judged one wrote</U></STRONG></EM></DIV> <DIV><EM>Was fighting against guildies in pvp last night.<BR><BR>ONCE AGAIN WE ARE [Removed for Content] GIMPED.<BR><BR>Once again the briuser kicked everyone around.<BR>LU15 Still no fix. [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] is an assassin doing using freaking cheapshot a lvl 6 scout spell.<BR><BR>When our stealth attacks is resisted we are screwed in PVP.<BR>When someone does DoT we can't Stealth<BR>When someone does true AoE we can't stealth<BR><BR>Just 3 more retarted SOE things.<BR><BR>FIX THE FREAKING LIST. </EM></DIV> <P></P> <DIV> <DIV><EM>Hearth (SIN) Iconoclast </EM></DIV></DIV> <P>------------------------------------------------------------------------------------</P> <P>You forgot to mention the loss of poison when you got your A S S kicked in PVP! How long does it take for us to get an answer?</P> <P> </P> <P> </P>

[Demonskill]

think they are investigating each class's each skill one by one every day. So i'd estimate 12 more months =)

[Noxium]

<p></p><p>Hi,I've recently returned to EQ2, I left originally as I hit level 50 around Feb, being the first assassin on my server to do so - we had issues back then.  I still kept in contact with my friends, and they have raved about the combat changes, and convinced me to return - I was somewhat skeptical, but everyone was raving about them so figured I'd give it a go.DoF - very nice, nice surprises being chased by angry mobs around Maj'Dul just from heading into the wrong area - something I missed from Qeynos/Freeport early days in EQ1.  I'm not here to express my opinions on DoF though.My gear isn't great - I haven't played for 6 months, I wield things like an SBD, have numerous 46+ daggers, and a 1HS/shield in my bag.  I also use a bow.I'm now level 51.  Last night, I start a group up - previously, I’d have LFG on for literally minutes before joining a group (before people knew how bad assassins were) but nothing was happening much and we head over to LT.  One of my old friends, a 51 wiz joins us - he has seriously good items, and various adept3/master1 spells.  His DPS is amazing, it’s almost double that of the level 52 wiz that joins us, at my request, he parses group damage, and is sending them to me in tells.  I am embarrassed, quite simply embarrassed.  What use am I to a group when the paladin is managing a comparable dps?  I'm not talking about the 'special' fight every 15 minutes.  The level 52 wiz has around double my dps, making me around 1/4 that of my 51 Wiz friend.Around 6 months ago, before I quit, I could see a few major problems - they've not changed.  Assassins have to be the most mobile class, if the tank moves 1cm, it could mean the mobs move a much larger distance - meaning your AE gets 1 mob or your backstab completely misses, and stealth drops as you've just been caught in some unlucky AE.  No other class is restricted so much.  Casters can stand anywhere and nuke.  Where is the 'the wizard has to be directly behind the mob, within melee range and have stealth up to cast their nuke?'  They don't have it.  We wear chain, I’m willing to accept some restrictions, but that triple restriction is a killer.  All our abilities, and melee dps should be tripled to bring us in line with Tier 1 dps - Rangers out dps my wiz friend, he can't get near them unless they are poorly equipped.  They are meant to be our brothers. My thoughts?  Do I have an answer?  No, I'm not a game designer, and anything I could suggest will probably not fit in with the way the game works, but the assassin class is in need of help.  Or is it our destiny to be a Tier 3 dps class?  Please just say so, and I’ll done my leathers and play a bruiser, at least until I get sidetracked again.I do however have ideas, lost of ideas.  One day one will make me rich beyond my wildest dreams, or more likely be patented and stolen making someone else rich.Maybe a consideration should be the way our limitations, such as positioning and stealth work.  I say remove these restrictions from our abilities completely.  Make them into 'bonus' damage multipliers.  We try a backstab?  The game looks and sees our state?  Are we invis?  Yes, ok, we'll double the damage.  Are we behind?  No, ok, we won't double it, but hey look, he’s at the side, I’ll just grant a bonus of 50%, and stacks these against our currently restricted abilities.  We'll still have to work our nuts off to get the tank to remain still, and pray the mobs don't move out of range, and still have to run around chasing a mobs back like a ferret, but that should be our domain, and we'll at least have the potential to get to Tier 1.Just an idea.Oh and PLEASE make the high damage charts vs NPC's only.Nox51 Mohawk, Splitpaw.</p><p></p>

[SmEaGoLLuM]

Meant to post it here. Just a letter a friend used for a /feedback that he wanted me to add here. Dear SOE, There are some serious issues with the asssassin dps currently. There are issues with so many skills requiring stealth resulting in long cast times and not enough stealth and also huge recast times and damage is simply very low for a tier 1 dps class. They are currently not functioning as a tier 1 dps class, they are tier 3 currently at best. Almost all the main assassin damage attacks require stealth which results in huge cast times which is not characteristic of a scout and there are positioning issues and issues resulting in stealth breaking and ending up not even getting the stealth, from the mob AE and even the bug which bas been around for months. If we look at the wizard class for example, not even looking at the all their other benefits for the group like mez, power xfer, group buffs, debuffs, they have evac just like us. Ok they have all that in addition their ice comet is 45 sec recast, out assassinate is 15 min recast, their ball of incineration is 9 sec recast, our deathly blade is 5 mins recast, their sunstrike is 3 sec recast, our gorestrike is 1 min recast. Do you see the disparity there? To top that off, even the furies storm spell which can get to master2 does 1250-2100 exactlly the same as the assassins gorestrike at master2 also. So both are at master2 and all this is comparing the same str and intel, but guess what, the gorestrike is 1 min recast, the storm spell is 15 sec recast. A priest's nuke is superior to one of our big backstabs at master2.  Gorestrike also requires stealth. Did the devs just test each class from fighting one encounter and that's it, and did not look to recast timers and just thought up some recast numbers that they thought were approriate for that spell/art? Please don't give me crap about the sustained dps we do currently, yes we do have it but summoner's have many times our sustained dps from their pets and they are a tier 2 dps class. In fact, summoners, sorcs, rogues, bruisers, rangers currently outdamage assassins on average by a large margin. Rangers are where they should be but the evil representitive of the predator is many many steps down the ladder currently. This is parsing both good and average players. Not only that, the assassins barely does more dps than some other fighters. The class role is at stake with them not acting at all as a tier 1 dps class. Namely, I would suggest staggering blow do more initial damage, insidious wound needs to do more initial damage also and reduce the duration dot and make each tick do more, and oozing wound should tick faster also, as in have higher dmg ticks but less ticks, it should be 16 sec dot so its termination effect actually has a chance to go off. Freezing strike line needs to do slightly more damage, gorestrike needs to be on a 30 sec recast and do slightly more damage, deathly blade needs to be on a 1 min recast. I would like to say that garrote is the most worthless spell we have, not only does it require stealth it does about 250 dmg at adept3. This is sickening for a tier 1 dps class. The damage on it should be magnitudes higher than it currently is. Assassinate needs to be on a 3 min recast.  Out of all the dps classes, both tier 1 and tier 2 we have the worst aes of them all. We have positioning issues, both aes requiring stealth and they are ALWAYS broken from mob ae or the stupid bug that will probably never be fixed. And they have huge cast times for their miniscule damage. And why does massacre have to only hit the mobs in front? Murderer's assault needs do tick faster and do more dmg per tick, also a slight dmg increase on the initial damage and should be 1 sec cast or 1.5 sec cast at the most. Massacre needs do hit all mobs around the assassin and should be 2 sec cast. Our surveil line needs to be 10 sec recast and instant cast. Fel shot and spitting asp both need to be 1 sec cast and spitting asp made able to be used while flanking, and whoever thought of the damage numbers on assailing blast and contrived weapon I salute you. Both of these need to do multitudes more damage and contrived weapon needs to be 1 sec cast also. Whirling blades needs to be a 30% proc just like all the other pred and rogue procs, why do assassins get the shaft here? Also it should give a str bonus. Exposing mark is currently useless like garrote and contrived weapon, it should be made better in some way but I cannot think of any way other than increase its proc rate and damage. Brutal focus needs to have a shorter recast or made to last 1min 12 secs. Lasting 36s and recast of 5 min is not right, and many of these kind of spells post revamp were made to be more useful with shorter recast and longer duration, apparently they missed our focus line. Only with many of these changes will assassins be more in line as a tier 1 dps class for goodness sakes. If you guys are looking hard, look harder please, look at the assassin class at every angle, from long fights to short fights, to slow pulls to fast pulls, from having lots of mobs meant for ae to a single mob. Just look at the assassin class and say to yourself we have a problem and must look into this thoroughly and carefully. Thank you for reading. <p></p>

[SteveS]

<P>I wasnt even going to bother writing on this thread because there are so many other assassins already stating the obvious in the first 100 posts whats another to matter?</P> <P> </P> <P>But, in saying that....I have only just hit lvl 25 so forgive for not having the immense experience of my fellow assassins, having grouped all this week to do my armour quests in Fallen Gate and Edgewater....I feel i too must add my frustration at how bad my DPS is compared to other members of my group.</P> <P>The wizard is mostly top of the parse list, followed usually by the bruiser....then me, then a crummy shadowknight, then the shaman.  And i am just about beating the shadowknight lol by about 25 pts</P> <P>May as well take a bleedin'nother bruiser, apart from ESCAPE i am somewhat just another majority group player.  Dosnt the word ASSASSIN imply soemthing more than what we have become??  We are supposed to be masters of stealth, Trained in the arts of poison and are highly trained with almost any weapon.</P> <P>At first i couldnt see what everyone was complaining about....solo'n at low levels were a breeze, I was really enjoying it, however fights are getting harder and I feel that groups are only taking me on because they need the extra plyr</P> <P>Please fix our DPS <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P></P>

[Tacp]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> SteveSKZ wrote:<BR> <P>I wasnt even going to bother writing on this thread because there are so many other assassins already stating the obvious in the first 100 posts whats another to matter?</P> <P> </P> <P>But, in saying that....I have only just hit lvl 25 so forgive for not having the immense experience of my fellow assassins, having grouped all this week to do my armour quests in Fallen Gate and Edgewater....I feel i too must add my frustration at how bad my DPS is compared to other members of my group.</P> <P>The wizard is mostly top of the parse list, followed usually by the bruiser....then me, then a crummy shadowknight, then the shaman.  And i am just about beating the shadowknight lol by about 25 pts</P> <P>May as well take a bleedin'nother bruiser, apart from ESCAPE i am somewhat just another majority group player.  Dosnt the word ASSASSIN imply soemthing more than what we have become??  We are supposed to be masters of stealth, Trained in the arts of poison and are highly trained with almost any weapon.</P> <P>At first i couldnt see what everyone was complaining about....solo'n at low levels were a breeze, I was really enjoying it, however fights are getting harder and I feel that groups are only taking me on because they need the extra plyr</P> <P>Please fix our DPS <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P></P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>I am 25 as well and I have not had any issues being 1 or 2 DPS in any group I am in, please lets not post non factual statements, our DPS problems start 40+. If you can't pump out DPS at 25 then maybe you should roll a bruiser and mash buttons. <P></P>

[Tealdea]

<span><blockquote><hr>Tacp wrote: <blockquote> <hr> SteveSKZ wrote: <p>I wasnt even going to bother writing on this thread because there are so many other assassins already stating the obvious in the first 100 posts whats another to matter?</p> <p>But, in saying that....I have only just hit lvl 25 so forgive for not having the immense experience of my fellow assassins, having grouped all this week to do my armour quests in Fallen Gate and Edgewater....I feel i too must add my frustration at how bad my DPS is compared to other members of my group.</p> <p>The wizard is mostly top of the parse list, followed usually by the bruiser....then me, then a crummy shadowknight, then the shaman.  And i am just about beating the shadowknight lol by about 25 pts</p> <p>May as well take a bleedin'nother bruiser, apart from ESCAPE i am somewhat just another majority group player.  Dosnt the word ASSASSIN imply soemthing more than what we have become??  We are supposed to be masters of stealth, Trained in the arts of poison and are highly trained with almost any weapon.</p> <p>At first i couldnt see what everyone was complaining about....solo'n at low levels were a breeze, I was really enjoying it, however fights are getting harder and I feel that groups are only taking me on because they need the extra plyr</p> <p>Please fix our DPS <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p> <p></p> <hr> </blockquote>I am 25 as well and I have not had any issues being 1 or 2 DPS in any group I am in, please lets not post non factual statements, our DPS problems start 40+. If you can't pump out DPS at 25 then maybe you should roll a bruiser and mash buttons. <p></p><hr></blockquote>Scold him why don't ya? He's so young, probably not even useing the best poison's. I have a level 50 assassin friend who is STILL asking me questions about the class because we are still so [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]'d up. Keep your attitude for the mages.</span><p></p>

[Tacp]

I was not scolding him for asking a question it was his statement that at 25 we suck, which we hardly do. Lets not send the devs the totally wrong message and have them chasing ghosts. <P></P>

[Historios]

<P></P> <P></P> <P>Just had to add my 2cp to this as well.  Was parsing in a group with me (51 assassin), 53 necro, and 53 conj.  Fighting against white/blue con mobs in PoF they were doing almost double my dps unless I had assassinate or condemning blade up.  THen I could usually get up to number 2 on the list.  The saddest thing for me was in some fights when all 3 of my biggest backstabs were down I actually got outdamaged by the necro's assassin pet.</P> <P> </P> <P>The biggest problems I notice is recast timers on out attacks, its mighty frustrating to sit there during a fight staring at a bar of grayed out abilitys waiting for something to refresh.  Granted this will cause power use problems, but I'm pretty sure that wizards dont have to wait 5 or even 15 mins to use ice comet.  In my mind the bloodthirster line should be on about a 30 sec retimer, condemning blade line should be 1 min, and assassinate could be a 5 min retimer.  Then we could actually do some damage each fight rather than just pretending.  Of course we would also probably need another ability which will stealth us because we're the only class that has to disappear to do damage.</P> <P> </P> <P>Which brings me to my last point, why exactly do we have to be invisible to do damage?  If I'm attacking something, why should I have to stop, then hide, just so I can hit him again?  This just makes no sense to me, so not only do I have to be behind the mob, but now, if he DoT's or AoE's me, all I did was waste time and have my invis break, so I cant use any of my higher damage abilities.  And of course now I'm stuck waiting for one of my TWO whopping combat invis spells to refresh so I can try and backstab again. </P> <P> </P> <P>I like my class, I like the idea of doing lots of damage and being a mean underhanded rotten bastich that gets behind people and stabs them in the back, but the implementation of this idea still needs work.</P><p>Message Edited by Historios on <span class=date_text>10-26-2005</span> <span class=time_text>11:36 AM</span>

[Hawgeous]

<P></P> <P></P> <P>While I don't think the issue is as big through 20s and 30s I do think it exist.</P> <P>I spent most of those levels with a Monk that gave me a run for my money in the DPS department.</P> <P>Most of the CAs lines that have been aluded to as having very long refresh timers are given in the twenty levels and if you upgrade you can typically do pretty good, not as good as some, but it becomes much more obvious after that.</P> <P>I mean really, if I have a CA that does 5,000 points damage at a 5 min refresh rate the equals 16.7 dps. Not much help overall is it.</P><p>Message Edited by Hawgeous on <span class=date_text>10-26-2005</span> <span class=time_text>10:09 AM</span>

[judged_one]

Guess SOE didn't like thatI started a new thread calling for [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]assin to cancel their account if no changes were made or news by Nov 15th.They stealth remove it in a heart beat.Seriously Many people already said that in this thread. So I am sure you are monitoring this forum.Here is the stat 2 guild [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]assin already left, 2 guardians are leaving.That's 4 accounts our of 80 from my guild.Do the math. Is it too hard to post a statement. What kind of freaking customer service is this SOE.btw unnerf [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]assin (a s s a s s i n) in the forum, another bright no-brainer script by SOE.do you guys have quality [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]urance?

[judged_one]

I can [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ure you that this [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ortment of bugs is the result of poor [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]embler of product. This is a direct [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ault on the [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]assin class.I hereby call on your [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]istance to help me create an [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]embly of astounded players to prevent further passing of such poorly written script. I call for them to be more [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]iduous from this point on cause I am truly embarrassed to be [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ociated with them, even only as a mere customer. Please give me some [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]urance that [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]assin will be fix in the near future. I look forward to your [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]uagement.

[Paragon100]

<P></P> <P>Immature, lazy and foul mouthed.</P> <P>In before the lock!! =P</P>

[Hawgeous]

<P>There is absolutly no reason to lock this thread.</P> <P>Yes there have been some comments that could have been left out but in my opinion this is a result of frustration on the part of players (paying customers) that has gone unaddressed for to long.</P> <P>I do realize a need to take the appropriate amount of time and fix the issues rather than just patching but I think most of use would appreciate any sort of patch at this point while they continue to work on the bigger issue.</P> <P></P>

[Craien]

<P></P> <P></P> <P><SPAN><BR> </P> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> judged_one wrote:<BR>I can [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ure you that this [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ortment of bugs is the result of poor [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]embler of product. This is a direct [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ault on the [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn][expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]in class.<BR>I hereby call on your [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]istance to help me create an [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]embly of astounded players to prevent further passing of such poorly written script. I call for them to be more [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]iduous from this point on cause I am truly embarrassed to be [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ociated with them, even only as a mere customer. <BR><BR>Please give me some [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]urance that [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn][expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]in will be fix in the near future. I look forward to your [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]uagement.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR></SPAN><SPAN>Not that I don’t agree, but perhaps an emphasis on the positive and constructive would serve us better.<SPAN>  </SPAN>Our class definitely took several steps back, but our attitude and maturity shouldn’t have as well.<SPAN>  </SPAN>Don’t mean to be harsh, though, so please don’t take it that way.</SPAN></P> <P><SPAN></SPAN> </P><p>Message Edited by Craien on <span class=date_text>10-26-2005</span> <span class=time_text>12:09 PM</span>

[Jakr]

<div></div><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p>cut the   crying and flaming  this post is supposed to be filled with  constructive clear posts about our proffesion. not   crying   nonsense,if you wanna  cry  pls take it elsewhere. none of us want this post locked  people  worked to hard on this post to have you ruin it for everyone. <p> <span class="time_text"></span></p><p>Message Edited by Jakron on <span class=date_text>10-29-2005</span> <span class=time_text>09:22 AM</span>

[Tacp]

<P></P> <P>I would hate to see him if someone p.i.s.s.e.d in his Rice Krispies</P> <P>Message Edited by Tacp on <SPAN class=date_text>10-26-2005</SPAN><SPAN class=time_text>12:39 PM</SPAN></P><p>Message Edited by Tacp on <span class=date_text>10-26-2005</span> <span class=time_text>12:40 PM</span>

[Jakr]

<p></p>looks fine to me ,  assassin  <----- doesnt get [Haxx0red] <p></p><p>Message Edited by Jakron on <span class=date_text>10-26-2005</span> <span class=time_text>12:41 PM</span>

[Tacp]

noticed after I posted but in judged_Ones post the word Assassin is Haxxored <P></P>

[Tacp]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> judged_one wrote:<BR>I. This is a direct [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ault on the <FONT color=#ffff00>[expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]assin class</FONT>.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <P>Haxxored there</P>

[Jakr]

hes probably  putting a space in or somthing. hes the only one that cant type it lol <p></p>

[Daramm]

For a couple hours, any word with that naughty three-letter word contained in it was nerfed, due to <a href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=ForumHelp&message.id=8104" target=_blank>this</a> post; he didn't swear once in that post, nor manually edit in those hax. . .

[Jakr]

you should  check his other posts he got locked those are pretty  entertaining as well <p></p>

[judged_one]

<P>Just a slow day at the office. </P> <P>And that other post was jsut a test to see if they actually read the forum. nothing more, and nothing less.</P> <P>In case you guys can't really read what I wrote I will post the original message tomorrow at work.</P> <P>Now it is time for raid.</P> <P>And my sincere apology to these that are truly offended ! </P> <P>but, hey, I am an assassin.</P> <P>Cheers and hopefully we will be fixed soon.</P>

[Tealdea]

LOL... grouping togethere tonight in the Living Tombs with my healer/jeweler friend... I told her on audio... "Yep... that's the 5th time tonight Assassinate and my other two big hits were blocked or parried" lol, she totally agrees that, be them brawler or not, blocking and parry abilities should not apply to a class when it's back is turned to the attacker, I mean come on... Does the dam n thing have arms on his back? <p></p>

[Kokus]

<P>Test updates in.. No assassin changes.</P>

[Noxium]

Do any devs actually play high level assassins much?  I would like to see the personal/company opinion of the class from one of them, particularly with a comment about how the assassin stacks up in dps terms when compared to the ranger. I was playing last night, and a regular bow shot landed for some crazy damage - I was stunned.  Wow, considering this is a level 35 bow...  I'm now looking at using a bow regularly to up our pathetic attempt at group usefulness!! Nox <p></p>

[Tealdea]

<p></p><p></p>AND ANOTHER THING!! LOL, for the sake of all that is stealthed and evil!! Please! Please make poison's 1)Maintain their effect even after we've died and 2) <font color="#66ff00" size="5">STACKABLE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!</font> <p></p><p>Be a little more clear on stackable =)... 1 vial... change it to stackable properties, a stack of 20 vials.<span class="time_text"></span></p><p>Message Edited by Tealdeath on <span class=date_text>10-27-2005</span> <span class=time_text>03:08 AM</span>

[Skratttt]

<P>I gota agree on point 1....point 2 no way</P> <P>could u imagine the dps of rangers with MORE poisons??</P> <P>WE need our offensive buff and proc fixed......that might be the key to it all</P>

[Tealdea]

<p></p><span><blockquote><hr>Skratttt wrote:<p>I gota agree on point 1....point 2 no way</p> <p>could u imagine the dps of rangers with MORE poisons??</p> <p>WE need our offensive buff and proc fixed......that might be the key to it all</p><hr></blockquote>I meant physically dude =)... As in... Um... Wash, Oil, Resin, Stacks of Arrows, that kind of stackable. Lol, yeah, I should have been a bit clearer about that with more detail. </span><p></p><p>Message Edited by Tealdeath on <span class=date_text>10-27-2005</span> <span class=time_text>09:08 AM</span>

[dea]

Inventory stackable Poisons would be handy, but not a game breaker for me. I currently have more than enough inventory space to make it a non-issue. <p></p>

[dea]

Help Us, Raijinn ThunderGuard; you're our only hope! <p></p>

[pczry]

we will get fixed in a couple of year or so.... <p></p>

[NerroVI]

Im starting to think we will have to wait for the next adventure pack and it will contain instances where we have to go thru hours of quests to actually get the fixes and changes needed, and we will only have to pay another 7.99 usd for that <span>:smileywink: Like I said I am not sitting by watching I have already started a few other toons to get a idea for what I like if they don't do something/start communicating SERIOUSLY not BSing us very VERY soon.</span><span></span> <p></p>

[Sneddle-UNREST]

<P></P> <P>Hey guys......  read the thread:   <A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=40&message.id=8981" target=_blank>http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=40&message.id=8981</A>  </P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P>1 word:   WOOOHOOOO!</P> <P> </P><p>Message Edited by Sneddle-UNREST on <span class=date_text>10-27-2005</span> <span class=time_text>09:41 PM</span>

[Kimira]

<P><BR></P> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Sneddle-UNREST wrote:<BR> <P></P> <P>Hey guys......  read the thread:   <A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=40&message.id=8981" target=_blank>http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=40&message.id=8981</A>  </P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P>1 word:   WOOOHOOOO!</P> <P> </P> <P>Message Edited by Sneddle-UNREST on <SPAN class=date_text>10-27-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>09:41 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Sounds like a half-[Removed for Content] job to me.<BR></P>

[SmEaGoLLuM]

I would like to ask a quick question SOE/MG/Dev. Why are the rogue's and ranger's offensive stance proc rate 30% and our offensive stance proc rate is 10%? Please explain this reasoning to me. <p></p>

[Gyilok]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> SmEaGoLLuM86 wrote:<BR>I would like to ask a quick question SOE/MG/Dev. Why are the rogue's and ranger's offensive stance proc rate 30% and our offensive stance proc rate is 10%? Please explain this reasoning to me.<BR> <P></P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>because someone came up with the idea that rangers should do [Removed for Content] damage afk, they should make theirs to 10% <P></P>

[Forsaken_God]

<P></P> <P>Has anyone woundered why brigands get to stand in AoEs instead of us. The other 3 tier 1 dps classes get to do there dps without having to worry about most AoEs but we have to worry about all of them. Would make sense that assassins would get this skill other than brigands. If they properally fix assassin dps we will still be left behind the other tier 1 dps classes because we spend half our time runing out of AoE range. I wish I didn't like my assassin so much I could have a tier 1 dps class in the time I have been waiting for assassin changes and could be happily doing tier 1 dps. Atleast some changes are starting to happen. /sigh</P><p>Message Edited by Forsaken_God on <span class=date_text>10-27-2005</span> <span class=time_text>11:29 PM</span>

[SmEaGoLLuM]

<div></div><p></p><p>Message Edited by SmEaGoLLuM86 on <span class=date_text>10-28-2005</span> <span class=time_text>08:50 PM</span>

[Onyx Cu]

<DIV>Why are things broken?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Because sony decided to allow other classes a chance to take stealth out of the assasins I.WIN catagory in <STRONG>PVP</STRONG> fights due to the insane damage they could acheive prior LU15.Now we are in a new world where Sony are juggaling PvP and PvE and Customer satisfaction all at once and honestly they wont find a happy medium if they dont take the one of those elements which can be changed <<EM>uhum without Brainwashing></EM> by the developers and modify what they can <EM>(suprisingly this means some overtime work from the dev chaps but afterall they pushedout the PvP element and broke the old game in the same movement so they need to)</EM>, that would leave the PvP or PvE elements and my best advice for Sony is is to leave the PvP balances theyve made and just dismantle the PvE enviroments and rework them for the new EQ2 game theyve blundered together.</DIV><p>Message Edited by Onyx Cube on <span class=date_text>10-28-2005</span> <span class=time_text>12:56 PM</span>

[dea]

<span><blockquote><hr>Forsaken_God wrote:<p></p> <p>Has anyone woundered why brigands get to stand in AoEs instead of us. The other 3 tier 1 dps classes get to do there dps without having to worry about most AoEs but we have to worry about all of them. Would make sense that assassins would get this skill other than brigands. If they properally fix assassin dps we will still be left behind the other tier 1 dps classes because we spend half our time runing out of AoE range. I wish I didn't like my assassin so much I could have a tier 1 dps class in the time I have been waiting for assassin changes and could be happily doing tier 1 dps. Atleast some changes are starting to happen. /sigh</p><p>Message Edited by Forsaken_God on <span class="date_text">10-27-2005</span> <span class="time_text">11:29 PM</span></p><hr></blockquote>Agreed. For a class that doesn't depend on stealth not being broken by AEs to deal their damage, this power is a wierd pick for the Brigand class and makes much more sense as an Assassin skill. For some reason, the Rogues seem to get all of the good combat arts; we should get used to that I guess.</span><div></div>

[SmEaGoLLuM]

Practically, assassin's aes are the worst out of all the dps classes for many reasons. Actually even theoretically they don't look right. Massacre being 3 sec cast and only hits in front and requires stealth which is either 1.5 sec before the ae or 2.5s before the ae so it ranges from 4.5sec cast to 5.5s cast and nevermind the positioning and every mob aeing after 1.5 seconds breaking the stealth, and lastly not to mention the two stealth bugs that has been around for months with one relating to a ho. <div></div>

[Sta]

<DIV><STRONG><FONT color=#66ff33>I think the reason why nothing is being made to the class assassin might be because developers are not quite happy with the class and are planning to remake it completely. </FONT></STRONG></DIV> <DIV><STRONG><FONT color=#66ff33>Out of that presumption I write..</FONT></STRONG></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#99cc00><U>I have 2 main parts that I feel are essential for an assassin that are completely overlooked.</U></FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#99ff99><EM><STRONG>First out. </STRONG></EM></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffffcc>Assassins are shadowy characters in nature, alas they should not have to constantly use skills to go into stealth and then constantly break stealth when an attack is performed.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffffcc>So, they should have  a skill that lets them "shadow", meaning not completely invisible from mobs , but invisible enough to do "stealthed" attacks without first having to cast stealth. </FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffffcc>In a way this would translate as having stealth attacks removed from assassin with a minor exceptance, if the assassin where to obtain aggro from a mob it would come out of shadow. Not necessarily having to recast, if aggro is turned away the assassin would slip back into shadowed mode.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffffcc></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffffcc>This would open up possibilities as the "go into stealth" skills could be remade. </FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffffcc>Mayhaps interesting self enhancements and debuffs, such as reduced magic damage, buffs/debuff in the anatomy line.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffffcc></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG><EM><FONT color=#99ff99>And anatomy is second out.</FONT></EM></STRONG></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffffcc>Assassins are supposed to know anatomy very well, where to stick the knife to make it hurt the most. </FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffffcc>And type of damage is one of the things an assassin might be able to work around/with..</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffffcc>Enhancing their weapons with additional types.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffffcc></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffffcc>Assassins also know that poison is never good for bodies. Weirdly enough rangers possess this knowledge aswell, well then give assassins higher proc rate on poisons and/or possibility to apply one poison for each blade.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffffcc></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffffcc>And assassins are agile? 1 or 2 quick AoE attacks would fit the pattern aswell.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffffcc></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffffcc>Thanks for your time.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffffcc></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffffcc>Brgrds</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffffcc>Rennie / 47 Assassin / Runneye</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[dea]

<span><blockquote><hr>deaks wrote:<span><blockquote><hr>Forsaken_God wrote:<p></p> <p>Has anyone woundered why brigands get to stand in AoEs instead of us. The other 3 tier 1 dps classes get to do there dps without having to worry about most AoEs but we have to worry about all of them. Would make sense that assassins would get this skill other than brigands. If they properally fix assassin dps we will still be left behind the other tier 1 dps classes because we spend half our time runing out of AoE range. I wish I didn't like my assassin so much I could have a tier 1 dps class in the time I have been waiting for assassin changes and could be happily doing tier 1 dps. Atleast some changes are starting to happen. /sigh</p><p>Message Edited by Forsaken_God on <span class="date_text">10-27-2005</span> <span class="time_text">11:29 PM</span></p><hr></blockquote>Agreed. For a class that doesn't depend on stealth not being broken by AEs to deal their damage, this power is a wierd pick for the Brigand class and makes much more sense as an Assassin skill. For some reason, the Rogues seem to get all of the good combat arts; we should get used to that I guess.</span><div></div><hr></blockquote>I thought about this a while, and actually having a Rogue be able to avoid AEs is highly useful as it allows them to keep their debuffs in for the majority of the fight. With that in mind, I'm not that bummed about Brigands having this ability.</span><div></div>

[Forsaken_God]

<DIV>I don't really mind that brigands have it, my problem is that assassins don't have an ability which they SHOULD have and after assassin dps is fixed we are still going to never be on par with the other tier 1 dps classes because we don't have it.</DIV>

[SmEaGoLLuM]

We need it more than any other scout haha cos of all our breakings of stealth but a better solution would be to make the surveil line 0.5s cast, 0.0s recovery time and 10 s recast. <div></div>

[twiddlethumb]

Yeah, block & parry - when the mob's back is turned to you - is stupid. On several occasions I've thought the mob probably is using a (temporary or not) skill to improve block and parry, because players of my level are hitting the mobs for full non-melee damage while I keep going *tink* <div></div>

[Forsaken_God]

<DIV>Quicker cast on surveil doesn't help us avoid AoEs, I guess are ranged attacks help us continue dps well we are not in melee range so I guess it isn't as bad and we shouldn't see that much of a difference in our dps but still think the skill is alot better suited to an assassin rather than a brigand.</DIV>

[Hawgeous]

<P>Was just another useless rant.</P> <P> </P> <P>Sorry</P><p>Message Edited by Hawgeous on <span class=date_text>11-01-2005</span> <span class=time_text>09:21 AM</span>

[DaigleD]

You know what really makes me mad .... the fact that I chose this class specifically to be an "Evil Ranger" and I turned out to be more of a rogue than an actual rogue class. It's pathetic and dis-heartening

[Forsaken_God]

<P>All I can say about the resent changes is its a start, with those changes we are still not comparable with  the other tier 1 classes but we did get some boosts and some positive changes to some skills. Deffinelty didn't see anything negative other than cheap shot changes for PvP. =P </P>

[DaigleD]

what changes have been made to cheapshot regarding pvp?

[Forsaken_God]

<DIV>miss read the change still good for PvP.</DIV>

[Jakr]

<div></div>info on changes check my post. i went and played around with the changes for about an hour or 2 on test with my lvl 50 <div></div><p>Message Edited by Jakron on <span class=date_text>11-03-2005</span> <span class=time_text>09:17 PM</span>

[Stormwitt]

Ty Devs. Don't lose the momentum now <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[kopingOwen]

I´ll start to say: I play assassin period! My main will always be assassin, I´m glad only to have assassin under my name.. But how much i love the assassin i must agree we have issues... Over all i like the CU but as many before me have stated there is 2 big issues.. 1. why did our attacks take a dump when they told us that they would be higher? the foremost reason i think is that almost all melee ca´s are str based.. I have no issue with it, its logical if you got more str sure you should be able do use more force to putt that dagger in the chest of that person.. BUT! since we only have agi buffs assassins/rangers MUST rely on gear/potions/food to get our str up.. before the cu the agi buffs also made our ca´s do more damage.. OK i could had lived with this if not all scouts exept the predator line get a str buff! in raids at the moment all other scout classess i play with have caped 400 str wile i tend to be 50-100 str short.. I know i still don´t have top of the notch fabled all over but.. should i have to? since other scout classes don´t.. 2. recast timers... I know there is NO class in the game that can put out as much damage as an assassin in a short period of time and why would they its class defining to the assassins.. assassin are suposed to silently kill targets fast and without a sound aka stealth + assassinate + surveil line + deathly blade.. look at the cast timers people in 1.5 sec(often more since its almost inhuman to pull off all in that time period) we do insane damage! BUT! why do we need to wait 15 mins to do i again? oh i know we need to plan our assult..?! well it ain´t working like that in this game you don´t have time to sit around planning for 15 mins before you can put out some desent damage.. BTW can we stop the BS about the rouge class line being able to solo better then the predator class line! just LOOK at the ca´s people assassins = 6 or 7 positional close combat ca´s swashbuckler = 6 or 7 nonpositional close combat ca´s there you have it black on white why the rouge class line have it easier solo just accept it <div></div>

[Tealdea]

What genious came up with the idea of even having skills on a 1 hour timer? (old Assassinate, Harm Touch... I think HT anyway.., etc.) Lol, was brilliant of that person to say "hmm... arround 6k damage.. yeah, this will be a last resort for the classes, they're gonna love this!!" Yeah, well... We do love it.. We love it tooooo deeeeeeathhhhhhhhhhhh <div></div>

[Kokus]

<DIV>Changed original post.</DIV>

[Forsaken_God]

Sooo, whats next, is that it, we got our changes in 16b and they are done with us for a while? Any update would be nice.

[deciever]

<span><blockquote><hr>Forsaken_God wrote:<div></div>Sooo, whats next, is that it, we got our changes in 16b and they are done with us for a while? Any update would be nice.<hr></blockquote>The update was nice, but, it certainly didn't do enough for us to be happy.. Our core problems still aren't fixed. As for me, the longer I have to go without getting a bone thrown to me, the worse my attitude will get. I can only put up with crap for so long. I'm hoping that they are looking into us, and working on us, and working on class-balancing and fine-tuning. I assume they are.. If they aren't, well.. That's just terrible, isn't it?</span><div></div>

[Skratttt]

<DIV>Now honestly i think the other 3 scout DPS classes get WAY beter skills than us...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Hmmm hail of steel, amazing reflexes, hail of arrows i would trade ANY of those for BOTH Finishing blow and Concealment (in a heartbeat)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[dea]

<span><blockquote><hr>Skratttt wrote:<div>Now honestly i think the other 3 scout DPS classes get WAY beter skills than us...</div> <div> </div> <div>Hmmm hail of steel, amazing reflexes, hail of arrows i would trade ANY of those for BOTH Finishing blow and Concealment (in a heartbeat)</div> <div> </div> <hr></blockquote>I won't trade Finishing Blow or Concealment for anything. But I'd love a replacement for Apply Poison and Brutal Focus could see some loving.</span><div></div>

[Aienaa]

<DIV>Think we could get another tread going on this that deals with post LU16 Assassin concerns, so that it's not cluttered up with material from before the LU16....</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Many things continue to be wrong, but it's getting mixed in with material from before the last major patch...  with 11 pages of material, most concerning pre-LU16, I think it's time to start fresh and work on the problems at hand, rather than discussing the older stuff that does not necessicarly apply  in the current state of Assassins....</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Gwern - 60 Assassin</DIV>

[deciever]

<span><blockquote><hr>deaks wrote:<span><blockquote><hr>Skratttt wrote:<div>Now honestly i think the other 3 scout DPS classes get WAY beter skills than us...</div> <div> </div> <div>Hmmm hail of steel, amazing reflexes, hail of arrows i would trade ANY of those for BOTH Finishing blow and Concealment (in a heartbeat)</div> <div> </div> <hr></blockquote>I won't trade Finishing Blow or Concealment for anything. But I'd love a replacement for Apply Poison and Brutal Focus could see some loving. <font color="#ff0000"><i><b>We</b></i> could see some loving.</font></span><div></div><hr></blockquote>Finishing blow is a really cool move if the mob lives long enough below 20% for me to get it off. I usually click it when the mob is at 25% or lower depending on the speed at which my guild group is killing, and by the time it goes off, it usually helps finish off the mob. Sometimes, it doesn't finish the mob though. Regardless, it's a pretty good addition to our usefulness, especially since it's on a 45 second recast, although I can't see why I had to wait until level 58 to get it. It's an awesome spell, but.. I needed it long before I got to 58. Concealment.. Wow. That is a cool spell, but, our backstabs casting time and recast time kind of make it far less useful than some of the spells I've seen other classes get. Apply poison is just ridiculous. It's cool to give my group better DPS... But, I'd rather have the DPS coming from me specifically.. I think this skill needs work, too. I wonder what the developers were thinking when they put that with assassins. It's one of 3 of the only new spells we get from 51-60, and it's completely worthless to us in a solo situation--- and that situation, well.. We need anything we can get. <b>COME ON.</b></span><div></div>

[Birkenstocky]

Not to beat a dead horse, but I liked the idea of apply poison.  I typically use it on my MT, to increase their damage output and hate and if I go ape excrement crazy in damage they still good on controlling target.  Useless if soloing and frankly I don't know if it even works since I am not running a parser nor disecting each hit a group member makes maybe someone else knows how effective it is .. I went ahead an upgraded it to adept 3 to try to help my tank friends which some of you may find me silly to have done but if it works right then it helps a team. <shrug>

[dea]

I don't have a problem with Apply Poison attributing damage to another member of my group, that is just fine with me, more damage output per unit time for my raid and less aggro for me. The problems I have with it are that it is a fairly minor damage adder for a new level 52 spell that doesn't upgrade very well from Adept I to Adept III. Now Concealment fills the need for additional stealth combat arts in many situations, indeed it can eat up enough recast timers that it fills its role as an additional combat stealth quite nicely. However, I'll ask the same question someone else did: why did we have to wait until level 55 to get another combat-useable stealth?!?! It is not really a damage adder, and lets face it dealing damage is all that Assassins do, it only serves to compress the timespan under which multiple from-stealth attacks can be brought to bear. I would much rather have seen this added at a lower level instead of Slip Away to address our lack of combat stealth at those levels. I'm not sure I have a good suggestion for a replacement at level 55 if this had happened. Finishing Blow is a combat art that I do like, 45s recast is fairly fast as far as Assassin combat arts go so that is a plus. I currently use it mainly on Epic mobs, most other trash mobs die quickly enough once hitting the 20% mark that even a low hit of 4k damage is overkill. <div></div>

[Tealdea]

The little delay on concealment is hard to get use to lol, I'd still perfer an effect of old day bugged Slip Away instead of the "place caster in stealth on a succesful attack" because 5 seconds is a bit short for succussful melee attacks, especially if one's parried or blocked or just flat out misses (which happened 3 or 4 times the whole night (but this is about an hour or two of fighting so... not too fustratiing, just for that one fight). <div></div>

[steelbadger]

<DIV>now i'm confused...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The general concensus is that Assassins are borked, yes?</DIV> <DIV>Now i have been reading these forums and the coercer also seems well and trully borked.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>why is it that the only place that i see any complaints about the situation that the assassin is in is this board.  i mean, Coercers have just about taken over the general boards.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>now i would make some noise on the general board, but i don't have the first hand knowledge of assassins (yet) to be able to carry an argument.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I spent quite a bit of time on the dev tracker and i did not see any posts on the assassin forum.  You need to carry your argument to the devs.  don't just hope that they will hear you.  make them hear you.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>or am i missing something...?</DIV>

[dea]

Our efforts have been stymied at every attempt to move our problems beyond these forums. In an attempt to post on the general combat forums our post was moved back here since it involved discussion of our class -- that was stupid since the content in that post was already present here and was being opened up to a wider audience for review. Our only successful attempt to bring our issues to light were in the combat test forum which was closed while our issues were still unresolved when it was determined by someone at SOE that enough time had passed since the combat revamp.So, its not like we haven't tried.To address your other quesetion, I'm not sure the consensus is that our class is still broken. Many on these boards still have their own complaints but most of the assassins I speak to daily are pleased with their damage output capability.<div></div>

[Tealdea]

<div></div><span><blockquote><hr>deaks wrote:.............the assassins I speak to daily are pleased with their damage output capability.<div></div><hr></blockquote>It is, truely the damage we deal right now is decent, BUT it is not what it should be. The current DPS I get on average without DBlade and Assassinate (THAT IS TWO SKILLS <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />) is arround 400+ (no less, and that is on a good q<u>uick</u> kill) We're going to either need a seriously boost in damage on some of the CA's (along with lower recast timers) OR we're going to need utility. Now, as many other assassins will do, I take the damage over the utility (except a nice self Str buff) One thing I do not get. I was talking to some guildies on an audio program about this. Assassin's have hate buffs, we transfer hate and we reduct our own hate, we have extreme hate management and our biggest attacks are over 5 minutes in recast and do 4k+ and 7k+ where as Ice Comment can do 6k+ EVERY 45 SECONDS and have absolutely no means of loseing that hate. Concealment got a nice hate reduction SO GIVE US MORE DAMAGE WITH SHORTER RECASTS TO JUSTIFY IT Look at this, Warlocks/Wiz are T1 DPS and they have great utility, Assassin's have absolutely nothing but damage to deal and we are still meant to be slightly lower in DPS than them (for what? Chain armor? rofl, ya, we die two pretty quick) Why is the assassin class to suffer dreaming of being not top DPS, but close or equal? Why must we suffer knowing there's no one lurking in the back ground taking care of our class like the bruiser monk and mage classes are being taken care of? ROFL, a warlock one day on teamspeak told me (here's the entire chat) : Me - "I hate Assassinate's recast timer, it sucks, I want to use it more often." Him - "Dude Assassinate should be on a long recast timer, it's your biggest attack isn't it?" Me - "Ya it is, I want it lowered tho." Him - "Well what is the timer?" Me - "It's up to 7k damage for me on a 15 minute recast" Him - "[expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]! Dude... that's stupid... I thought it was on like... 45 seconds like Ice comment or atmost 1 minute" Him again - "[expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] man... that sucks..." Me - "Yeah... yeah..." This is a true story rofl, I remember it so well because he was the first person who thought it was on a shorter duration than what it is, the first person who though we had balance. PS : the most DPS I've ever gotten was 1.2k on a blue con'd named creature, I practically killed it myself. This was the line used. A macro combining Concealment and Crippling Strike in that order is the XXX, both Adept3 Dealfall(M1), Anathema(Ad1), XXX, Gore Strike(Ad1), Garrote(Ad3), Deathly Blade(M2), Assassinate(Ad3) (mob was at 7% after that) and to finish the job Finishing Blow(Ad3) (I was and still am level 59 during this parse). With my hate buffs on, and the tank had little time to taunt, I did not draw aggro because of our now extreme aggro management, pretty nice job, now just add more damage. Now only if I could do that kind of damage more than every 15 minutes, that would be nice, people could actually say "wow, dude you rock, we would have totally all died if not for you" maybe gain 2 or 3 more stuns (I'd like to use more than just 3 or 4 stealth skills solo'n and still have a stun left to use finishing blow when the time comes) Please, lower the recast timer's of DBlade and Assassinate to 1 and 2 minutes. Please? Make this Chirstmas really specially to your Assassin customer's. (BTW, Anathema needs it's recast timer changed back to 10 Seconds IMO, just for Heroic Order reasons)</span><div></div><p>Message Edited by Tealdeath on <span class=date_text>12-04-2005</span> <span class=time_text>09:16 AM</span>

[dea]

Before LU16+17 I was parsing 600+ DPS regularly on the Silent City x4s. I haven't parsed much after these last updates but I have no need do, I notice the difference and am fairly well pleased with my contribution to the group/raid.<i>Teal</i> -- I'm not going to argue that I'm right, you are welcome to your views and opinions as much as I am welcome to mine. But from what I've seen, the Assassin is one of the few classes, that does not fulfill the raid tank role, that can open up all of our attacks across the span of a single battle and not draw aggro (or at least not draw aggro too much).Most other classes that have far higher DPS spells and combat arts than we do will draw aggro very easily if these combat arts are used continuously (as fast as they refresh). For our Rogue brethren, they'll tend to draw aggro regularly if they use their large damage arts while keeping their debuffs in (their balance is to be able to better withstand these attacks and lose aggro quickly, they also have better maintainance aggro management powers that they can use to stay off the top of the hate list during regular debuff cycles). For the mages, they tend to feature little to no aggro management whatsoever, their technique of aggro management involves the lack of auto-attack damage, their ability to deal damage from range (which attenuates hate to some degree), and simply *not* using combat arts (hence their other utility powers for buffing and limited power feeding to maintain usefulness when not nuking).As far as I'm concerned in a raid setting our dps is well balanced against our aggro management. It is not that we have the best aggro management, it is that our aggro management capability is well balanced to the aggro we generate (given our lack of debuffs, not because of our lack of damage output).In group and solo settings we can suffer in comparison to other classes. If we can open big then it is often easy to win, if we get ambushed the battle can usually be quite ugly. Our new-found reliance on auto-attack bothers me but at least provides us a solid measure of frontal damage dealing, decreasing our positional reliance when soloing and increasing our dps when aggro jumps around in small-groups.In my opinion, our current biggest problem is our biggest asset. The majority of our combat art damage is both positional and carry a long recast. The tradeoff is that our auto-attack damage is now quite respectable. How is a long recast an asset? Well we certainly wouldn't be dealing the kind of single-CA damage that we do if our recasts were much shorter. The only exception to this is Assassinate, it could probably be on a faster recast in order to make it more generally useful instead of being as situational as it currently is.<div></div>

[Aienaa]

<P></P> <HR> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>Before LU16+17 I was parsing 600+ DPS regularly on the Silent City x4s.  I haven't parsed much after these last updates but I have no need do, I notice the difference and am fairly well pleased with my contribution to the group/raid.</FONT><BR></P> <HR> <P>Yes I agree, our DPS is better than what it was before and a bit more respectable....</P> <P>But.... what you are missing is that they raised the bar across the board...  They didn't fix anything for Assassins, what they did was increased DPS from Dual Wield weapons</P> <P>If you only compare your DPS before to your DPS after, without looking around you, then yes, we are were we should be for DPS... But like I said, the DPS increase was a across the board increase to all dual wield....  So, if our DPS increased by 200 DPS, so did all the other dual wield weapon classes, which puts us no closer to where we should be because the bar has been raised and we are still behind...</P> <P></P> <HR> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>As far as I'm concerned in a raid setting our dps is well balanced against our aggro management. It is not that we have the best aggro management, it is that our aggro management capability is well balanced to the aggro we generate (given our lack of debuffs, not because of our lack of damage output).</FONT></P> <P></P> <HR> <P>With or without the agro reduction to concealment, It was possible to not pull agro before while maintaining DPS...  Between Hate Transfer, Improved Surviel, and Elude, I had no problems with pulling agro.... The only time I have pulled agro is when the mob is down to the last few % of health and I drop Assassinate and/or Deathly Blade...</P> <P>We have our share of debuffs...  Deadfall, Anethma, Cripple Strike and what ever poison debuff your using at the time, which is about the same number of debuffs as I have on my troubador (Oppresive, Zanders, Guvinia's, Lores and then the DOT Kians)....  We also generate hate from the poisons we use, and we can easily rack up 20k damage from poisons...</P> <P>We don't have a lack of debuff capability compared to other similiar classes, what we have is a lack of DPS compared to other classes....</P> <P> </P> <P>Gwern - 60 Assassin  /  Parody - 54 Troubador</P><p>Message Edited by Aienaa on <span class=date_text>12-04-2005</span> <span class=time_text>11:47 PM</span>

[dea]

I'm not ignoring that all dual-wielders got a damage increase with respect to weapon damage and proc rate. I'm noticing that with our doubled buffs for +dps that we got more than others did. Keep in mind that I don't care about solo settings, in a raid or even most groups I'm getting group haste that evens the playing field with respect to the perma self-haste that other classes can achieve and that we no longer have.Our debuff capability is pathetic compared to the debuffs of the Rogue classes. I have no problem with that, but we won't be generating aggro from our debuffs anywhere near what they do. Concealment didn't change much about our aggro management except to make it a little safer for us to use our heavy hitting attacks during its effect. My statement about aggro management is meant to show that one area where the Assassin shines is our ability to deal all of our damage without pulling aggro from our tank.I continue to disagree that we are unable to deal solid dps. Against a single-target mob I have no problem feeling superior as compared to the other damage dealers in my raid which include the various mage classes (sans a coercer), fighter classes, and scout classes. At least for me, the dps seems acceptable.<div></div>

[Tealdea]

I'm not stating our damage is low, I'm stating our best attacks needs adjusting with they're recast timer's. The damage is indeed nice, but 15 minutes to do just 8k atmost (depending on your str) is just wrong. Assassinate IS NOT a life saving skill. Games will never exsist to have such skills because they will never have the capability of having worthy properties without ruining balance. Assassinate is just one example of our skills, Gore Strike could use a lower recast, lets face it, our damage is nice, our recast are not. No one is argueing that our damage isn't good (atleast not me) our damage just takes too long, and raids last a long time so our DPS can be great during raids, I even see mine better than normal. BUT YOU CANNONT BASE OUR DAMAGE OFF OF RAIDS. Not every guild raids, not ever assassin raids, not every assassin is that hardcore of a player to be in a raiding guild nor plays as much. You have to take those player's into account. <font color="#ff0000">Assassinate</font> 5 min recast, <font color="#ff0000">DBlade</font>, 1.5 minutes, <font color="#ff0000">Gore</font> <font color="#ff0000">Strike</font> 45 second, <font color="#ff0000">Finishing Blow</font>, up the 20% to 30% (kind hard to time it just right when the grp rocks, and the grp rockin is an everyday thing with my guild) lol, i useually get it off arround 8% because that 20% suddenly dropped to that right before I hit the skill or predicted it to hit 20%... .5 seconds isn't a very long time, but it's long enough. <font color="#ff0000">Concealtment</font> needs it's recovery time changed to Instant, that's where the lag effect is coming from, the recovery plays a huge part in that. <div></div>

[dea]

Until recently we had a mid-level Assassin xping, he is not amazingly outfitted. For his xp groups, he was routinely posting his parses to us showing well over 1k dps. This was not just every 15 minutes, but fairly regular.If I'm not slacking in a normal group situation, I also have no problem being useful when we face triple-up-delta or named mobs. It's really the masses of AEable mobs that cause me to stop being useful -- making my big hits refresh faster won't really help there. When facing these groups of weak mobs, by far the norm in the XP groups I remember and in instances, my AEs refresh just a little too slow for me to be helpful in every pull. Luckily we are pulling multiple groups so my out-of-encounter AEs can do their work best.I imagine that almost everyone who raids regularly is still grouping to help xp guildmates/alts or to run instances. I have some idea what it is like in a single-group situation although that is no longer the totality of my gameplay experience. For the most part in such settings I am an auto-attack bot using my AEs as they refresh and periodically burning a heavy hitting recast timer on a mob that has been standing for too long for my liking.I had previously asked for our long recast timers to be adjusted I'm not sure that it necessary anymore with respect to DPS but it would be nice to see more use of our combat arts especially in single-group situations. I could see asking for at least a shorter recast on Massacre.<div></div>

[dparker7]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> deaks wrote:<BR><I>Teal</I> -- I'm not going to argue that I'm right, you are welcome to your views and opinions as much as I am welcome to mine. But from what I've seen, the Assassin is one of the few classes, that does not fulfill the raid tank role, that <EM>can open up all of our attacks across the span of a single battle and not draw aggro (or at least not draw aggro too much).<BR></EM><BR><EM>Most other classes that have far higher DPS spells and combat arts than we do will draw aggro very easily if these combat arts are used continuously (as fast as they refresh).</EM> For our Rogue brethren, they'll tend to draw aggro regularly if they use their large damage arts while keeping their debuffs in (their balance is to be able to better withstand these attacks and lose aggro quickly, they also have better maintainance aggro management powers that they can use to stay off the top of the hate list during regular debuff cycles). For the mages, they tend to feature little to no aggro management whatsoever, their technique of aggro management involves the lack of auto-attack damage, their ability to deal damage from range (which attenuates hate to some degree), <EM>and simply *not* using combat arts</EM> (hence their other utility powers for buffing and limited power feeding to maintain usefulness when not nuking).<BR><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Think about this.  If you're constantly casting, and another class is just using a few of their skills, and you have comparable DPS, who is more worthwhile to the group or raid?  Who will be able to sustain damage longer?  Who has the ability to manuever and maintain damage?  </P> <P>Last time we parsed raids, I was in the top 4 in 4 separate jousting encounters, single target.  The brigand, ranger and conjurer or warlock rounded out the top 4.  Each of those other classes used only a few of their skills (ranger only used 3 and stream wasnt one of them) and had plenty of power after the fight.  I manastoned when possible and was nearly oom by the end of the fight.  I used assassinate on 2 out of the 4 encounters.  Not once did I top the DPS chart even though I burned through all the power I could.  That means we're still broken - raw parse numbers dont tell the whole story, you need to examine the parses.<BR></P> <p>Message Edited by dparker713 on <span class=date_text>12-05-2005</span> <span class=time_text>11:55 AM</span>

[silentpsycho]

I feared the worst as I approached 50 (there is another thread about when Assasin's start to suck compared to other dps classes, and it pegged 48 as the magic level).Well last night, I finally dinged 50. I was grouped with a 54 dirge, 55 troub, 55 ranger, 56 guardian and 56 fury (later a 49 warlock joined us), and while I averaged about 250 dps I was usually first or 2nd for dps. It was always the ranger or warlock (I think once the Guardian) who parsed higher, so I felt good that the predator's ruled the night.Now mind you, I am fully equipped in legendary armor and weapons, use legendary or better poisons and tier appropriate arrows, so I dropped probably 10g in equipment for the night. I also was the only one sprinting like a chicken with his head cut off from mob to mob trying to get in position behind the mob. I got to use assasinate twice - once it was blocked and I almost cried; and the second time it hit for minimal damage. The 15 minute time on Assasinate has got to go. Someone needs to tune this so we get to use our big hits more frequently if we're doing all the work to position ourselves correctly.I had a private conversation with the ranger and warlock about how they were staying to fresh on power, and it turns out they were only using certain abilities that didn't require them to move or work much. I don't see how this is fair, I was working my [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] off all night and they just had to hit a few abilities to keep up with me. I felt great about assasin DPS until this conversation - thinking perhaps we were fixed. But clearly, this is not the case. Does this get worse at later levels?Oh, and don't even talk to me about summoner/necro dps. It makes me sick. Story for another time, I guess.

[Tealdea]

Lol, who say's we're not gimped? We're the underdogs, ignored, works the hardest, waits the longest... Might as well roll a bruiser or monk, maybe some type of mage (What Assassin doesn't have a brawler class as an alt right now? Come on, don't lie, I myself have a small Brawler running arround) <div></div>

[Skratttt]

<P>Ok ok i do have to admit i do parse torwards the top of the dps chain in my guild in single target epic 4x-2x mobs....mainly because i am prety sure our rangers dont have 3 diferent proc weapons...just gleaming strike stuff......</P> <P>Last Rognor fight i did parse a total of 120k dmg (including crabs)....76k coming from auto atack (BF master 1 + wicked villany master 1, think i had a fury in group with that 40% haste 44% dps buff also on me and zerker....)  and poison....closest ranger was 76k total dmg......then again rognor is a blue to me epic 4x encounter</P> <P>I would say decent dps...because really i think since we dont have a real debuffer for resistances our mages dont do as much dmg.......</P> <P>Yes maybe we should just have massacres refresh halved or to be same as Murderers assault (which in master 1 is amazing ...too bad i only have add 1)</P>

[hosaf1]

<DIV>I was out soloing today and I noticed something very weird..... I could not solo Siphon ( a named lvl 49 spider ) in the sinking sands ( I being 60 made the mob green by inviteing a lower lvl )</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I did everything possable to kill it, started with all my bow attacks while useing a stun poisen and got it down to about 70%.</DIV> <DIV>Then when the mob got to me I used cheapshot, which broke before I could even get behind the mob so I ran back and used my bow to proc my stun poisen then I got behind, used a rear attack.  By the time all is said and done im down to like 10% health and Siphons still at like 20% and I end up dieing.....</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>whats going on here?   Either I have no idea what im doing or somethings messed up.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>( please dont say I dont know what im doing lol )</DIV>

[ChevelleXT]

I've never been able to solo a green or barely-grey named.  Siphon in particular has a very nasty poison. <div></div>

[Tealdea]

<span><blockquote><hr>hosaf150 wrote:<div>I was out soloing today and I noticed something very weird..... I could not solo Siphon ( a named lvl 49 spider ) in the sinking sands ( I being 60 made the mob green by inviteing a lower lvl )</div> <div> </div> <div>I did everything possable to kill it, started with all my bow attacks while useing a stun poisen and got it down to about 70%.</div> <div>Then when the mob got to me I used cheapshot, which broke before I could even get behind the mob so I ran back and used my bow to proc my stun poisen then I got behind, used a rear attack.  By the time all is said and done im down to like 10% health and Siphons still at like 20% and I end up dieing.....</div> <div> </div> <div> </div> <div>whats going on here?   Either I have no idea what im doing or somethings messed up.</div> <div> </div> <div>( please dont say I dont know what im doing lol )</div><hr></blockquote>Just because we was gray, doesn't mean he can't hurt you still <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></span><div></div>

[dparker7]

<DIV>it would be dead before it reached a ranger, if the ranger allowed it to move at all</DIV>

[Sokolov]

<div></div>I think Concealment should also have the effect of resetting skill timers <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> And there is no reason that Assassinate should be on a 15 minute timer.  That's idiotic, especially when you compare it to other "marquee" skills of other classes such as the Zerker's Rampage and Wizard's Ice Comet. <div></div><p>Message Edited by Sokolov on <span class=date_text>12-12-2005</span> <span class=time_text>10:02 AM</span>

[Tealdea]

<span><blockquote><hr>dparker713 wrote:<div>it would be dead before it reached a ranger, if the ranger allowed it to move at all</div><hr></blockquote>Ya... but no love for an Assassin on this game. You know that. <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></span> <div></div>

[Alarye]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Tealdeath wrote:<BR>Lol, who say's we're not gimped?<BR>We're the underdogs, ignored, works the hardest, waits the longest... Might as well roll a bruiser or monk, maybe some type of mage<BR>(What Assassin doesn't have a brawler class as an alt right now? Come on, don't lie, I myself have a small Brawler running arround)<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>:smileyvery-happy: I actually started out playing a monk and got bored with it a very long time ago.  I still don't play that char.  I like my assassin.  It's fun to be the underdog. </P> <P> </P>

[silentpsycho]

Don't forget the Bruiser 40ish CA Deadly Fist, which outright kills a full health non-epic mob in one hit every 5 minutes...  Parse that!

[Gandi]

Devestation Fist. Counts as Magic dmg not melee<p>Message Edited by Gandino on <span class=date_text>12-15-2005</span> <span class=time_text>04:23 PM</span>

[Logan]

<P> Devastation Fist..Its non heroic, or specifically any mob with no ^ , ^^, or^^^. You can actually use devastation fist on a mob in a linked heroic encounter if it has no arrows up. And really it isnt that overpowering. Certainly it's the best bloodlines skill out there but it has no use grouped or raiding. Basically its a tool for soloing the cost is being stifled for 10 sec. Anyways way off topic of the post but needed to be said.</P> <P> </P> <P>Rhys 60 Assassin/Logann 58 Monk...Kithicor</P>

[dea]

It is an entertaining power, not exactly unbalancing although I can see that it would apply equally to a Monk or Assassin (sadly it was not a sub-class power, and giving this power to the Brawler class does tend to make more sense than the Predator).I found it fustrating only once, after I had used Condemning Blade on a zero-up-delta mob and my Monk group member walked over and insta-killed it. Shame on me, I should have coordinated attacks better or left the trash mob to the Monk entirely.<div></div>