EoF AA Updates

[TaleraRis]

<div></div>We've had some changes folks. Let me run down the new list. Some have changed somewhat. Some have changed drastically for the better. Also keep in mind some names will be different cause I'm lower level, but the lines apply to our lines in general <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><i><b>Poison</b></i>Enhance: Caustic Poison - Increase 2% damageEnhance: Fettering Poison - Increases trigger chance by 3%Enhance: Ancillary Poison - Increases resist reduction by 3%                                              Increases skill reduction by 4%Conservation: Increases trigger count of all poisons by 10%<i><b>Trapping</b></i>Enhance: Snare - Increases movement speed reduction by 3%Enhance: Lunging Blade - Increases duration by 0.4s Enhance: Snaring Shot - Improves reuse speed by 1s Enhance: Thorny Trap - Improves reuse speed by 6s Hook Arrow (new last of trap line) 1 minute cast, 2 minute recast, 10 second duration, 2-25 meter range                                     An arrow attack that summons your target to you. Your next melee attack will critical stike. <i><b>Focusing</b></i>Enhance: Focus Fire - Increases duration by 1sEnhance: Brutal Instinct - Increases duration by 3sEnhance: Honed Reflexes - Increases duration by 4sEnhance: Stance: Dance of Leaves - Reduces penalties by 20%Extension - Increases hit chance by 0.90%                    Increases Ranged Weapon Range of caster by 1.0%<i><b>Survival</b></i>Enhance: Sprint - Increases sprint movement speed by 5%                             Reduces power cost by 5%Enhance: Pathfinding - Increase out of combat movement speed by 6%Enhance: Escape - Improves casting speed by 0.30s                                 Improves reuse speed by 60sEnhance: Backup Quiver - Improves reuse speed by 60sEnhance: Hawk Dive - Increases duration by 2sBefriend Animal - 6s cast, 17m 36s duration, instant recast, 3(!) concentration slots                             Charms an animal, causing it to act as your pet for the duration of this spell<i><b>Multishot</b></i>Enhance: Precise Shot - Increases damage by 3%Enhance: Natural Selection - Improves casting speed by 0.2s                                                 Increases damage by 1%Enhance: Triple Arrow - Increases damage by 1%                                       Improves casting speed by 0.1sEnhance: Storm of Arrows - Improves casting speed by 0.15s                                               Increases damage by 1%Enhance: Stream of Arrows - Improves casting speed by 0.1s                                                 Reduces duration by 1.5s                                                And just to explain, here's the blurb -   Hastens the casting speed and effects of Stream of Arrows, allowing arrows to be fired faster than                                                 beforeDouble Arrow - Caster will Double Attack on 2.0% of ranged attacksIf there are any typos, other beta rangers, please let me know.Precise was a typo. Fixed now.<div></div><p>Message Edited by TaleraRis on <span class=date_text>11-08-2006</span> <span class=time_text>02:41 AM</span>

[Venez]

<P> Nope that looks right - they are really nice now.</P> <P>All the feed back helped out it seem =) </P>

[xandez]

ok, now we start talking <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />++Xan<div></div>

[TaleraRis]

I think they need to look at associations now. The poison line is good, but take the last two, Survival and Multishot. Why in the world is Selection connected to Makeshift Arrows? I still find the Sprint and Pathfinding upgrades useless and having to waste points in that line just to get Befriend Animal is kind of pointless. I've ended up taking some in the Focus line to bypass the Sprint requirement so I can get to things like the Escape upgrades. Unless the ability is extremely useful when I test it, I may be avoiding that line entirely except for the substational improvement on our Summon arrow skill. I also don't understand the connection between Hawk Dive and Storm of Arrows. As a soloer, I use Storm of Arrows more. Having it locked to Hawk Dive, which I don't even have yet, just doesn't make a lot of sense to me. But unless I want to have to put points into Selection, another skill I use in limited capacity as a soloer, I would have to choose Hawk Dive as one of my 15 in the Befriend Animal line to be able to utilize the Storm of Arrows upgrade. Most of the other lines seem okay, but those connections just don't make sense and they cause issues when trying to get abilities that I'll actually use.<div></div>

[TerriBlades]

<P>The revamp AAs for EoF are a huge change over what they were before. If they stay like this, I'll have no problem what so ever with them. Someone might, and its possible they'll even be right, but for the lines that I've been looking at.. Poison, Focus and Mulitshot.. this are just about right. (now lets just hope they work) :smileyvery-happy:</P> <P>Tal, you did a fairly good job, and its possible the line might have changed yet again, but on my screen, I have Precise at a 3% increase per point, Selection Triple and Rain all have a damage increas of 1% per point. Im gonna have to give serious thought as to how to spend points now I think.</P> <P><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN> </P><p>Message Edited by TerriBlades on <span class=date_text>11-07-2006</span> <span class=time_text>11:43 PM</span>

[Lockeye]

Did anyone on beta get a chance to look at Hawk Dive?<div></div>

[TaleraRis]

<div><blockquote><hr>Lockeye wrote:Did anyone on beta get a chance to look at Hawk Dive?<div></div><hr></blockquote>I believe I saw mention of Dad testing it and extolling its virtues <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> </div>

[Stormhawk]

<div></div><div><blockquote><hr>Lockeye wrote:Did anyone on beta get a chance to look at Hawk Dive?<div></div><hr></blockquote>I poked around with it for a bit after another ranger was talking it up.   4ish extra rounds is really nice but there is still the whole "huge aggro on death" and "no stealth" stuff that makes me think twice about this skill.Edit:  I didn't actually test the aggro part ( no raid ) but I did test stealth and it is breaking it.  Are you looking for something in particular about it?</div><p>Message Edited by Stormhawk on <span class=date_text>11-08-2006</span> <span class=time_text>12:22 AM</span>

[TerriBlades]

I'd test it, if I could get my AAs, as it is now, I only have 7 of the EoF ones.. Wanna buff me Lockeye?

[THEWELL]

<DIV>Hook Arrow (new last of trap line) 1 minute cast, 2 minute recast, 10 second duration, 2-25 meter range<BR>                                     An arrow attack that summons your target to you. Your next melee attack will critical stike. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Is this correct?   1 minute Cast time??  [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I liked the look of this, esp sence I play on a pvp server.  But the range and the cast time makes it worthless.</DIV>

[TaleraRis]

<div><blockquote><hr>TerriBlades wrote:<div></div>I'd test it, if I could get my AAs, as it is now, I only have 7 of the EoF ones.. Wanna buff me Lockeye?<hr></blockquote>Beta buffer in Kelethin is fixed. Can just hail him and choose one of the 70 options and it'll try to give you all your crap again, but you'll get AA boosted.</div>

[TaleraRis]

Well now it's 0.74s to me since I beta'd up to 70 and got full APs to test out, giving me access to Poise now.  But it could potentially be worthwhile. Use Lunge to root, back up, Hook Arrow maybe? I can't test it, because currently even getting 15 in the line won't let you choose it. <div></div>

[MacDaddy62]

<div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div>Wow, I was really quite depressed about our AA's before, but they're looking decent now.  For a raiding ranger, 45 of the 50 points are absolute no brainers, but I'd be interested to hear about what people have to say about the last 5 points.  Just to be perfectly clear, these are the no-brainer choices, as I see it (all to rank 5):Caustic PoisonFocus AimKilling InstinctHoned ReflexesPrecise ShotSelectionRain of ArrowsTriple VolleyDouble AttackThis leaves 5 points that could be spent in either Stream of Arrows or Extension.  Snaring Shot would also be a nice option to have, but getting to it requires spending 6 points in AA's worthless to a raider, so it's out.  Choosing stream would concentrate stream's damage into a significantly shorter period of time, thus increasing the amount of dps it does while active, but does this improvement make M1 stream worthwhile as an alternative to auto bow and short-recast CA's, especially for a ranger with a high-end bow, ammo from a DT bow, and dps mod buffs?  Extension would give me a 5% increase in range, which is cool but not compelling, as well as a 4.5% increase in 'hit chance'.  How significant is this hit chance improvement, especially against high yellow and orange mobs?  Does it merely improve my chance to not miss or does it also decrease the chance that the mob will parry/block/deflect my shot?  I certainly don't expect that people will have definitive answers at this point, but I am interested in hearing opinions, and maybe someone has done or will do some tests if I'm lucky. =p-Azleya, Ranger and Officer of StrikeLucan D'Lere<div></div><p>Message Edited by MacDaddy62 on <span class=date_text>11-08-2006</span> <span class=time_text>05:38 AM</span>

[jarlaxle8]

<P>Nice one Gwyn, thx for posting :smileyhappy:</P> <P>Wow, they heard us. Before I just thought 'meh, this stuff sounds so insignificant, I won't bother trying to grind AA'. But these changes make the AA more like they should be: sounding tasty, hard to decide which way to go. :smileyhappy:</P> <P>The Backup Quiver improvement: is that 60 seconds less per point? That would be great; not endless quiver, but a big help for our arrow woes nonetheless.</P>

[TerriBlades]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> MacDaddy62 wrote:<BR> Wow, I was really quite depressed about our AA's before, but they're looking decent now.  For a raiding ranger, 45 of the 50 points are absolute no brainers, but I'd be interested to hear about what people have to say about the last 5 points.  Just to be perfectly clear, these are the no-brainer choices, as I see it (all to rank 5):<BR><BR>Caustic Poison<BR>Focus Aim<BR>Killing Instinct<BR>Honed Reflexes<BR>Precise Shot<BR>Selection<BR>Rain of Arrows<BR>Triple Volley<BR>Double Attack<BR><BR> <P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Ive been debating over this. This is a decent way to go, but Im also cheap and like the returns from the poison end line. I might just skip Honed reflexes and try and get conservation instead.</P> <P>Edit.. Bah, after using the buffer.. and sadly losing all my master spells to adept 3s, but getting the AA I was missing. Ive found that you cant get Killing and Conservation, so I might have to go with the above, and spend the last 5 in either Stream, or extension as it give a + to increased chance to hit. Not a big fan of Stream, but I'll have to do some testing to see if 1.1s per shot makes this any better.</P> <P><BR> </P><p>Message Edited by TerriBlades on <span class=date_text>11-08-2006</span> <span class=time_text>03:49 AM</span>

[Nulad]

<div><blockquote><hr>THEWELL wrote:<div>Hook Arrow (new last of trap line) 1 minute cast, 2 minute recast, 10 second duration, 2-25 meter range                                     An arrow attack that summons your target to you. Your next melee attack will critical stike. </div> <div> </div> <div> </div> <div>Is this correct?   1 minute Cast time??  [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]?</div> <div> </div> <div>I liked the look of this, esp sence I play on a pvp server.  But the range and the cast time makes it worthless.</div><hr></blockquote>No, it's incorrect. it's actually a 1.0sec cast time <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></div>

[Teksun]

Oh, happy day <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><div></div>

[Saihung23]

I am shocked...SHOCKED I SAY!  Those look pretty interesting.

[TaleraRis]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Nuladen wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> THEWELL wrote:<BR> <DIV>Hook Arrow (new last of trap line) 1 minute cast, 2 minute recast, 10 second duration, 2-25 meter range<BR>                                     An arrow attack that summons your target to you. Your next melee attack will critical stike. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Is this correct?   1 minute Cast time??  [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I liked the look of this, esp sence I play on a pvp server.  But the range and the cast time makes it worthless.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>No, it's incorrect. it's actually a 1.0sec cast time <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><BR></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>They fix it? Was showing 0.74s for me last night. </P> <P>Everything listed that gives something like a duration increase or % or such is per rank. So yes, Makeshift is 60s per rank, with 5 possible ranks, which cuts the reuse time in half. This is awesome for me as a soloer. I just wish it wasn't linked to the Selection line but Storm instead, because Storm has more versatility and Selection is more situational, at least for me it's been.</P> <P>I think they could do away with the Sprint upgrade entirely and put the Makeshift line there, or put Pathfinding where Sprint is, and put Makeshift where Pathfinding is currently. But I really just don't see the use of the Sprint upgrade. I'm a soloer, and I run away a lot, and even being able to Sprint away faster isn't really going to change much. </P> <P>Doh, sorry Terri. I didn't know it would downgrade your Master spells. <BR></P>

[Tobann]

Wow! I like this much better. I was holding off on ordering EoF, but now I think Ill go ahead with it. It now seems worth while.Buaf 70 /50 Ranger Befallen<div></div>

[Crychtonn]

<P>Revamped AA's look great except for the Survival line.  The end skill is nice but I doubt I'll ever get to use it since I can't see wasting 15 points on the sub skills.  The Sprint AA is completely worthless unless you play on a PvP server.  The pathfinding AA would be great for low level characters but since everyone in their 40's can go get a free 40% speed carpet from Maj'Dul it also becomes worthless.  Escape is a decent AA and good for solo'ers along with Reclaimed Arrows.  And unless they redid Hawk Dive into a completely new skill that AA is worthless also since most never even use it.  Come up with some replacement AA's for Sprint, Pathfinding and Hawk Dive and people might go this line but as it stands now I can't see people ever going this route.</P> <P> </P>

[Stormhawk]

<div></div><div><blockquote><hr>Crychtonn wrote:<div></div> <p>And unless they redid Hawk Dive into a completely new skill that AA is worthless also since most never even use it.</p><hr></blockquote>All Hawk Dive needs is AE immunity, the stealth thing I can deal with but would be nice if it was fixed.  As it stands now, the damage boost from 10 more seconds of Hawk Dive is more then Enhanced: Triple Volley would offer.</div><p>Message Edited by Stormhawk on <span class=date_text>11-08-2006</span> <span class=time_text>10:19 AM</span>

[Prandtl]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> TaleraRis wrote:<BR> <BR>Double Arrow - Caster will Double Attack on 2.0% of ranged attacks<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Previously it was 1% of ranged attacks for a max of 5%</P> <P>So is it 2% now, with a max of 10%?   Or did I read the changes incorrectly...<BR></P>

[Crychtonn]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Stormhawk wrote:<BR> <DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Crychtonn wrote:<BR> <P>And unless they redid Hawk Dive into a completely new skill that AA is worthless also since most never even use it.</P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>All Hawk Dive needs is AE immunity, the stealth thing I can deal with but would be nice if it was fixed.  As it stands now, the damage boost from 10 more seconds of Hawk Dive is more then Enhanced: Triple Volley would offer.<BR></DIV> <P>Message Edited by Stormhawk on <SPAN class=date_text>11-08-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>10:19 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Does this mean they did change Hawk Dive ?  What does Hawk Dive do now ?  You mention a damage boost how does that work.</P> <P> </P>

[Nulad]

<div><blockquote><hr>Prandtl wrote:<div></div> <blockquote> <hr> TaleraRis wrote: <div></div>Double Arrow - Caster will Double Attack on 2.0% of ranged attacks <hr> </blockquote> <p>Previously it was 1% of ranged attacks for a max of 5%</p> <p>So is it 2% now, with a max of 10%?   Or did I read the changes incorrectly...</p><hr></blockquote>No, you are correct.</div>

[Mronin]

Ok now were talking about AA's that are worth trying to get. I can see were some other changes would be very nice but at least this is better than the crap-fest we were presented with initially.

[Stormhawk]

<div><blockquote><hr>Crychtonn wrote:<div>Does this mean they did change Hawk Dive ?  What does Hawk Dive do now ?  You mention a damage boost how does that work.</div> <hr></blockquote>Check out the "Hawk Dive Improved" thread.  Hawk Dive is now totally bad [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn].  No stealth requirements for attacks while he is out.  They are trying to fix the hate dump problem.  Add in the 10 more seconds from Enhance: Hawk Dive and you have a skill almost more important then Mortal Reminder.</div>

[Haruk]

<div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div>Fully upgraded poison line seems REALLY nice, here is what the abilities do fully upgradedcaustic - 10% Damage increaseFettering-15% Trigger count (With fully upgraded final ability, 65% chance to proc it seems.Ancilary-Increases skill reduction by 20%,increase resist reduction by 15%Conservation(Final poison AA) - Increases Trigger count by 50%Wow, that final AA fully upgraded seems really  good, poisons will be proccing like crazy, nice stuff!I'll go check some more stuff out, and add on to this <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />just found out that the final just increases the number of procs you have, not proc chance, guess it's not so great now, seems like the best choice is to upgrade caustic only[slaps self]<div></div>edit -This is the AA line I have been thinking of, what do you guys think about it?<p><img src="http://img161.imageshack.us/img161/5668/aalinedh3.png"></p><p>3 in Precise Shot(Not bad, 9% Damage increase)</p><p>3 In triple volley(Increases casting speed by 0.3 seconds, damage increase by 3%)</p><p>3 in stream of arrows(casting speed 0.3 seconds quicker, reduces duration by 4.5 seconds...Not too sure about this one yet, if it doesn't seem good I might just upgrade some of the spells more.)</p><p>3 in selection(improves casting speed by 0.6 seconds,damage increase by 3%)</p><p>3 in rain of arrows(improves casting speed by 0.45 seconds, 3% damage increase.)</p><p>5 in hawk dive(10 seconds more, now that you can do stealthed abilities while unstealthed with the hawk out, seems like a great CA now, lasts for 38 seconds total now.)</p><p>5 in double arrow (10% chance to double attack with ranged)</p><p>and finally, 5 in Focus Aim(lasts 5 more seconds)</p><p>Message Edited by Haruk312 on <span class="date_text">11-08-2006</span> <span class="time_text">04:16 PM</span></p><p>Message Edited by Haruk312 on <span class="date_text">11-08-2006</span> <span class="time_text">04:17 PM</span></p><p>Message Edited by Haruk312 on <span class="date_text">11-08-2006</span> <span class="time_text">04:18 PM</span></p><p>Message Edited by Haruk312 on <span class=date_text>11-08-2006</span> <span class=time_text>05:03 PM</span>

[Crychtonn]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Haruk312 wrote:<BR> <P>Fully upgraded poison line seems REALLY nice, here is what the abilities do fully upgraded<BR>caustic - 10% Damage increase<BR><EM><FONT color=#ff0000>Fettering-15% Trigger count (With fully upgraded final ability, 65% chance to proc it seems.<BR></FONT></EM>Ancilary-Increases skill reduction by 20%,increase resist reduction by 15%</P> <P><BR><EM><FONT color=#ff0000>Conservation(Final poison AA) - Increases Trigger count by 50%<BR>Wow, that final AA fully upgraded seems really  good, poisons will be proccing like crazy, nice stuff!<BR>I'll go check some more stuff out, and add on to this <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></FONT></EM></P> <P></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Are you sure that's how that final ability works.  I was under the impression the number of proc's you got out of an application of poison.  Instead of getting 100 proc's you'd get 150 at max level.  And the name of the skill Conservation sounds makes it sound that way also.  If it did indeed increase our chance to proc poison by 50% people will be screamming nerf faster then you can fire off an arrow.  With a long bow that'd basically be a gauranteed poison proc on every single auto attack.</P> <P> </P>

[Haruk]

<div></div><div></div><div></div> I was just corrected in the ranger channel, you were right about how that works =P I guess the only think worth upgrading in that line now is caustic, and stream of arrows does seem pretty useless still after the AAs, so that line doesn't seem so great anymoremy bad.Now, im thinking of also upgrading the summon arrow abilitiy, and the other abilities on the multi shot line more<div></div><p>Message Edited by Haruk312 on <span class=date_text>11-08-2006</span> <span class=time_text>05:13 PM</span>

[Crychtonn]

<P>I disagree on the poison line.  If you are a raiding ranger you should get 5 in caustic, 3 in fetting (to get ancillary), and 5 in ancillary.  Debuffs are one of the most important things on raids and increasing the effectiveness of all debuff poisons is a very good AA to have.  I agree the final AA is only good for the cheapies out there :smileytongue:</P> <P>I also wouldn't put any points into Hawk Dive.  The current durations is more then long enough to get off all high damage stealth required attacks.  The really nice part with the change is Hawk Dive and Veiled both have 1m 30s recast so we'll be able to use them in tandem and never have to stealth.</P> <P> </P> <P>One request to the Dev's designing the AA's.  Would you consider changing part of the multishot line to reduce the recast timers like it is for Snaring Shot instead of having the reduced cast times.  Reduced recast like what we can get with Snaring Shot would be alot better then the very minor dereases in cast times.</P> <P> </P>

[TaleraRis]

Why not both? Then it will be useful all around.<div></div>

[littleman17]

<DIV>Just a note of Befriend animal, it only costs THREE slots! The AA you have to go through to get it aren't the best, but they do have their merit to get this pretty cool little ability. I plan to go down the line to put 5 points in this skill (to get an ad1 pet) and then some points into the double shot line.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I don't raid much, so the poisen line isn't all that important to me.</DIV>

[Haruk]

That AA would be nice if I could actually find any animal pets worth using, as stated on the thread all about it, there aren't much animals to charm around level 70 to be worth using.

[TaleraRis]

Now we need BA trash (akin to EQ Live DC trash <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />)<div></div>

[Balerius]

<DIV><EM><STRONG>Hook Arrow (new last of trap line) 1 second cast, 2 minute recast, 10 second duration, 2-25 meter range<BR>                                     An arrow attack that summons your target to you. Your next melee attack will critical stike. </STRONG></EM></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><BR>Has anyone tried this?  I'm kinda curious about it (Very unlikely I'll get it, but curious nonetheless).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Specifically, if used, does the summon avoid social agro?</DIV>

[Haruk]

Hook Arrow seems to be bugged at the moment, whatever I target, it says I need a valid target to use it on(Yes, I had a real mob targeted <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />) I did a /bug and posted it in beta forums, hopefully I can test it out soon<div></div>

[Ranvarenaya]

<div><blockquote><hr>MacDaddy62 wrote:<div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div>Wow, I was really quite depressed about our AA's before, but they're looking decent now.  For a raiding ranger, 45 of the 50 points are absolute no brainers, but I'd be interested to hear about what people have to say about the last 5 points.  Just to be perfectly clear, these are the no-brainer choices, as I see it (all to rank 5):Caustic PoisonFocus AimKilling InstinctHoned ReflexesPrecise ShotSelectionRain of ArrowsTriple VolleyDouble AttackThis leaves 5 points that could be spent in either Stream of Arrows or Extension.  Snaring Shot would also be a nice option to have, but getting to it requires spending 6 points in AA's worthless to a raider, so it's out.  Choosing stream would concentrate stream's damage into a significantly shorter period of time, thus increasing the amount of dps it does while active, but does this improvement make M1 stream worthwhile as an alternative to auto bow and short-recast CA's, especially for a ranger with a high-end bow, ammo from a DT bow, and dps mod buffs?  Extension would give me a 5% increase in range, which is cool but not compelling, as well as a 4.5% increase in 'hit chance'.  How significant is this hit chance improvement, especially against high yellow and orange mobs?  Does it merely improve my chance to not miss or does it also decrease the chance that the mob will parry/block/deflect my shot?  I certainly don't expect that people will have definitive answers at this point, but I am interested in hearing opinions, and maybe someone has done or will do some tests if I'm lucky. =p-Azleya, Ranger and Officer of StrikeLucan D'Lere<div></div><p>Message Edited by MacDaddy62 on <span class="date_text">11-08-2006</span> <span class="time_text">05:38 AM</span></p><hr></blockquote>Extension is definitely much better than it was previously.  1% increased range per rank = 5% at rank 5: that adds a whopping 1.7 meters to our range using a 35 meter bow.  IMO that is pretty much nonexistant, so really the decision is whether the 4.5% increase to hit chance is worth it and we can pretty much ignore the range thing.  I'm still hoping they may upgrade that considering that it seems the point of that skill was primarily to increase range, with the added bonus of a hit chance upgrade.  As it stands it's a hit chance upgrade that happens to accidentally increase your range about the length of the dead gnome next to you.</div>

[MacDaddy62]

<div><blockquote><hr>Ranvarenaya wrote:<div><blockquote><hr>MacDaddy62 wrote:<div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div>Wow, I was really quite depressed about our AA's before, but they're looking decent now.  For a raiding ranger, 45 of the 50 points are absolute no brainers, but I'd be interested to hear about what people have to say about the last 5 points.  Just to be perfectly clear, these are the no-brainer choices, as I see it (all to rank 5):Caustic PoisonFocus AimKilling InstinctHoned ReflexesPrecise ShotSelectionRain of ArrowsTriple VolleyDouble AttackThis leaves 5 points that could be spent in either Stream of Arrows or Extension.  Snaring Shot would also be a nice option to have, but getting to it requires spending 6 points in AA's worthless to a raider, so it's out.  Choosing stream would concentrate stream's damage into a significantly shorter period of time, thus increasing the amount of dps it does while active, but does this improvement make M1 stream worthwhile as an alternative to auto bow and short-recast CA's, especially for a ranger with a high-end bow, ammo from a DT bow, and dps mod buffs?  Extension would give me a 5% increase in range, which is cool but not compelling, as well as a 4.5% increase in 'hit chance'.  How significant is this hit chance improvement, especially against high yellow and orange mobs?  Does it merely improve my chance to not miss or does it also decrease the chance that the mob will parry/block/deflect my shot?  I certainly don't expect that people will have definitive answers at this point, but I am interested in hearing opinions, and maybe someone has done or will do some tests if I'm lucky. =p-Azleya, Ranger and Officer of StrikeLucan D'Lere<div></div><p>Message Edited by MacDaddy62 on <span class="date_text">11-08-2006</span> <span class="time_text">05:38 AM</span></p><hr></blockquote>Extension is definitely much better than it was previously.  1% increased range per rank = 5% at rank 5: that adds a whopping 1.7 meters to our range using a 35 meter bow.  IMO that is pretty much nonexistant, so really the decision is whether the 4.5% increase to hit chance is worth it and we can pretty much ignore the range thing.  I'm still hoping they may upgrade that considering that it seems the point of that skill was primarily to increase range, with the added bonus of a hit chance upgrade.  As it stands it's a hit chance upgrade that happens to accidentally increase your range about the length of the dead gnome next to you.</div><hr></blockquote>Yea, I'm definitely not of the opinion that 1.7 extra meters range is a good reason to spend 5 points.  It's certainly not going to let me dodge any extra AE's, lol.  The only thing the extra range is really good for is pulling, which is one of the few unique raid utilities I have (Surveillance, Amazing Shot, Bow of Searing Missiles, Safe Fall), and I do pull for my guild a fair amount.  The 5% range improvement would give me 2.25 meters extra range on my Bow of Searing Missiles.  However, I am absolutely NOT willing to sacrifice a better dps AA for that, if indeed there is one.  I'm just wondering which is a better overall dps improvement: the 4.5% hit chance improvement on extension or the Stream of Arrows improvement.  People have also been talking about the revamped Hawk Dive today, and while I love that change, I see no need to spend AA's in improving its duration, as the only reason I will use it will be to cast my stealth CA's without being in stealth, and even if I string ALL of them off, it's only going to take me about 13 seconds to do.  So again, my debate is really between the hit chance improvement on Extension and the Stream of Arrows improvement.-Azleya, Ranger and Officer of StrikeLucan D'Lere</div>

[MacDaddy62]

<div></div>I want to point out that although we may be excited about our improved AA's, other classes also got their AA's similarly improved.  Our AA's were weak relative to those of other classes before the revamp, and unfortunately I think that may still be the case.  Take a look at assassin AA's now, for example.  They get a 35% damage boost to one of their dots, a 20% boost to another dot, and a 30% boost to their third dot.  They get a 40 second recast reduction on their mastery strikes and on 'Exacting', which is their CA which reduces the recast of short-recast CA's for a period of time.  They get a self AE immunity on a 1.5 minute recast (though they have to stay in stealth during it).  They also get boosts similar to (but different than) ours to one of their AE's, damage poison, Honed Reflexes, and their short duration dps buff.  The only things we get in our AA tree that could begin to make up for assassins' superior damage boosts, recast reductions, and AE immunity are our double attack and focus aim improvement, but I'm not at all convinced that those make up for all that.  I really think our AA's still need to be improved relative to assassin AA's, or else our relative dps may fall deeper into the pre-existing hole which is already going to be amplified by Rallos Zek and Solusek Ro and the lack of a good or neutral god of comparable worth to a ranger.-Azleya, Ranger and Officer of StrikeLucan D'Lere <div></div><p>Message Edited by MacDaddy62 on <span class=date_text>11-09-2006</span> <span class=time_text>04:21 AM</span>

[xandez]

well, im pretty sure they will look into these kind of things eventually, since the gap was alredy in favor towards other DPS classes... why would they want to make the gap larger?unless, well, dunno... hehAnyway, its still in beta, and even after launch they will continue to adjust things, it just might take a while <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />++Xan<div></div>

[SpiralDown]

<div></div>Its kinda funny, cause some assassins are saying that most their APs wont increase their DPS much... I mean, they get a 35% increase in dmg to one of their CAs, but it could be the same as increasing the dmg on Shocking Thrust by 50%.  Increasing a crap CA by alot will only make it mediocre <span>:smileytongue: Or it could be the only good boost they get to any of their CAs. Comparing things at this time about a class ya may have limited info on will only give you a headache <span>:smileywink: On our APs... sprint is the only thing the screams utter suck to me atm.  Maybe replace sprint with Dance of Leaves (fits survival I think) and then replace Dance of Leaves with Archer's Frenzy. /shrug </span> </span> <div></div><p>Message Edited by SpiralDown on <span class=date_text>11-09-2006</span> <span class=time_text>02:40 AM</span>

[MacDaddy62]

<div><blockquote><hr>xandez wrote:well, im pretty sure they will look into these kind of things eventually, since the gap was alredy in favor towards other DPS classes... why would they want to make the gap larger?unless, well, dunno... hehAnyway, its still in beta, and even after launch they will continue to adjust things, it just might take a while <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />++Xan<div></div><hr></blockquote>My, aren't we optimistic today.-Azleya, Ranger and Officer of StrikeLucan D'Lere</div>

[TaleraRis]

<div></div>Extension is now showing as 5% increase to ranged weapon range and 5% increase to hit chance. I don't have any ranks in it right now so that's the base. It's looking like all the end line ranks were changed to 1/1 though.<div></div><p>Message Edited by TaleraRis on <span class=date_text>11-09-2006</span> <span class=time_text>09:39 PM</span>

[Stormhawk]

I /bugged this but posting here since the devs are watching.We cannot unlock the last AA in the poisoning line right now.  It requires 20 points in poisoning and there is only a possiblity of 15 total.<div></div>

[jrisley69]

as far as it goes, this is probably how i'll go with my aa's for max dps.5 in caustic5 in focus3 in honed reflexes5 in killing instinct5 in our defensive stance to get 100% reduction in penalties.5 in precise shot5 in triple5 in selection5 in rain5 in double attack2 in misc, probably reclaimed arrows to knock off 2 min from recast.  as i dont have an arrow summoning bow yet.I've messed around with this and was procing some very interesting numbers.  wont say exactly to avoid any nerf bat, but i was very very VERY impressed.<div></div>

[TaleraRis]

You don't need 5 in double attack anymore. It's only 1 rank. But all the last abilities now require 20 in their respective lines.<div></div>

[gribuz]

I am in beta and have been trying all these new wonderful AAs <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />One AA that is not completely needed is 25% sprint and requires 5 AA, on the other hand its very fun and I will get it hehe. Lasts long and feels like the lil dude from The Incredibles hihi <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Teksun]

<div><blockquote><hr>TaleraRis wrote:You don't need 5 in double attack anymore. It's only 1 rank. But all the last abilities now require 20 in their respective lines.<div></div><hr></blockquote>They still only cost one point?</div>

[Zholain]

<font size="2">Was anyone here actually able to get Double Arrow to go off last night?  I was only able to play on beta for about 2 hours, but in all that time, it never fired for me.</font><div></div>

[hieronym]

<DIV>double arrow worked last night last night, we was testing a raid zone and when i opened up with rain of arrows which critted on 5 mobs then i saw it hit again before i was eating dirt :smileytongue:</DIV>

[mik]

<div></div>"as far as it goes, this is probably how i'll go with my aa's for max dps.5 in caustic5 in focus3 in honed reflexes5 in killing instinct5 in our defensive stance to get 100% reduction in penalties.5 in precise shot5 in triple5 in selection5 in rain5 in double attack2 in misc, probably reclaimed arrows to knock off 2 min from recast.  as i dont have an arrow summoning bow yet.I've messed around with this and was procing some very interesting numbers.  wont say exactly to avoid any nerf bat, but i was very very VERY impressed. Jaiden70 RangerUnrest ServerParadigm"As a raiding ranger i will never spend any AA on defensive stance. I will take full poison line, double attack, 5 in tripple, rain, focus and killing instinct. Increasing time of honed reflexes doesnt seem to bring any noticable dps increase.<div></div><p>Message Edited by mikk1 on <span class=date_text>11-10-2006</span> <span class=time_text>06:05 AM</span>

[jarlaxle8]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> TaleraRis wrote:<BR>You don't need 5 in double attack anymore. It's only 1 rank. But all the last abilities now require 20 in their respective lines.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Any info on what that 1 rank will give on the end line abilities? And if it needs only 1 point or it's unlocked by sending several points?</P> <P>BTW, can this stuff be tried out on the normal test server? I might make the effort and get on test to fumble around with the AAs... :smileyhappy:</P>

[TaleraRis]

<DIV>Except for the Extension change, the last lines are all as they would have been at 5 ranks with just 1 rank. But the problem is you now have to spend 20 points in the line. So it's 20 in the abilities and 1 for the final. </DIV>

[jarlaxle8]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> TaleraRis wrote:<BR> <DIV>Except for the Extension change, the last lines are all as they would have been at 5 ranks with just 1 rank. But the problem is you now have to spend 20 points in the line. So it's 20 in the abilities and 1 for the final. </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Hmm. That doesn't seem to fit with the poison line, where you only can get 15. :smileyvery-happy: Except if they mean to let the cross-over enhancments count (Lunging Blade, Snaring Shot).</P> <P>Another thing is that you basically have to go full out on lines 2 and 3 to get the last skill. Sounds kinda goofy, cause it leaves less choice. Looks like there still needs some tweaking done... if I understood it right that is. :smileyhappy:</P>

[Mronin]

There is also currently a problem with the requirement of putting 20 points into the poison line. That problem is that there is no way to actually GET 20 points into the poison line in order to obtain the final ability. However this is a known bug at this time and will hopefully be fixed soon. I've /bugged this twice now. I spent a half hour respecing on Beta trying every possible combination of branches off poison to get to the end ability and there is just no way at the moment.Tested hook shot and it's iffy but again a known bug that should be fixed either before or shortly after launch. Double attack seems to be working now, the improvements in rain of arrows, hawk dive, focus aim, killing instinct, etc that come as a result in some of these AA's are almost good enough to make up for how much our weapons have been messed up in terms of damage. The befriend animal thing seems to be a decent addition for soloers and using both a charmed pet and hawk I could easily solo without worrying to much about aggro management. Over all I'll repeat myself and say that while there are areas that could stand some improvement, these AA's are large step forward when compared with the utter junk they were when I first got into beta.As an aside to those of you lucky enough to have Samak War Bow. Enjoy it's insane DPS while you can cuz while it wont be a traumatic drop in it's damage there is a distinct decrease in damage on Beta when compared to the numbers I've seen posted by people on live.

[Crychtonn]

<P>Did they post anything in the beta forums regarding this latest change.  It looks like in typical SOE fashion they are making things more difficult to follow then they have to be.  I can't see them making the final skills only cost one point and expect that to change.   I could see them changing the final skills to work like the KoS ones where there is only one rank but it cost the max points to get it (8 points for KoS and 5 points for EoF final abilities).  I like the point system the way they originally had it.  The more variety and options to choose from the better I think.</P> <P>Depending how the point system end up I'm thinking of going with this:</P> <UL> <LI>5pts - Caustic</LI> <LI>3pst - Fetting</LI> <LI>5pts - Ancillary</LI> <LI>5pts - Focus</LI> <LI>5pts - Brutal</LI> <LI>5pts - Precise shot</LI> <LI>5pts - Tripple shot</LI> <LI>5pts - Selection</LI> <LI>5pts - Rain</LI> <LI>1 or 5pts - Double shot</LI> <LI>Last 2 - 6pts debating and depends how many points Double shot ends up being.</LI></UL> <P> </P> <P> </P>

[Zholain]

<font size="2">Chrychtonn, that looks a LOT like how I had mine set bofore last night's change, and I liked it very much.  Granted I only got to seriously pley with 2 or 3 other combintations, but that was by far my favorite setup.</font><div></div>

[Corwinus]

Just reposting one of my post from beta and the comments onf another ranger Twistedriddles that also shed some light on the state of the art of ours aas atm.Corwinus wrote:So, if i understand well what is still not working atm for the Ranger tree is :- No ability to get Conservation the last poison aa because of the 20 requirement poison line which is limited to 15<font color="#ffff33">At the moment that is the case, yes. It will probably be fixed.</font>- The last trapping aa  Hook Arrow not working<font color="#ffff33">Also the case, yes. Will probably be fixed.</font>- The enhancing of stream of arrows not relevant either because of the nature of that spell or because anyway that spell has been broken for some time (correct me if i am wrong there, because i never use that spell, I hate being rooted and from what i see it is worse than our auto attack)<font color="#ffff33">Not true. The casting time reduction on the stream of arrows AA now reduces the casting time of the arrow shots in the spell not the spell itself. And it reduces the duration. This means at max it takes 1 second per arrow and lasts for 22.5 seconds. Firing 22 arrows and getting you out of the bad effects faster. </font>And there is still the debate between what is more relevant : improve of casting speed or recast time for the spells that get enhancements.<font color="#ffff33">Apparantly. Though the abilities now give reduced casting time and increased damage which is very nice, imo.</font>Anything i missed on which we should focus the devs attention ? plz no trolling and no flames, just constructive comments,  i am humbly just trying to get a more clear pictures of issues and an idea of priorities in what to ask the devs to fix.<font color="#ffff33">Pathfinding is currently broke. It is supposed to give 6% run speed per point (bringing it up to a 46% run speed increase in the end. Very nice ability) it currently gives 1% per point. This will probably be fixed too. People just need to /bug it.</font>Wanderer Corwin - Ranger 70 - Oasis<div></div>

[mik]

<div></div>"- The enhancing of stream of arrows not relevant either because of the nature of that spell or because anyway that spell has been broken for some time (correct me if i am wrong there, because i never use that spell, I hate being rooted and from what i see it is worse than our auto attack)<font color="#ffff33">Not true. The casting time reduction on the stream of arrows AA now reduces the casting time of the arrow shots in the spell not the spell itself. And it reduces the duration. This means at max it takes 1 second per arrow and lasts for 22.5 seconds. Firing 22 arrows and getting you out of the bad effects faster.</font>Wanderer Corwin - Ranger 70 - Oasis"Let me be short. As long as Stream of Arrows doesnt allow for ranged autoattack, this CA is total bs and worth nothing in any form. I can prove it with many raid parses. Last night we raided Emerald Halls with 2 brigs. My record autoattack hit was 9.2k (with Longbow of Corruption and arrows from Bazkul) though str was only about 650. I could easily parse 1.4-1.8k though now i have problems with aggro and cant start fight with Focus and all big hits (will draw aggro in most cases).Tesei, ranger of Defiant, Runnyeye<div></div><p>Message Edited by mikk1 on <span class=date_text>11-11-2006</span> <span class=time_text>01:10 AM</span>

[Balerius]

<P>After playing around with them, I'm fairly unimpressed with the AAs.  Some are OK, but from what I've seen several of the other scout classes appear to have much better AAs...particularly for raiding.  Some will increase our dps and will be no-brainers to get.  After spending about 40 AAs on those, however, the remaining AAs are basically wasted.  My line up:</P> <P><U>The No-brainers</U>:</P> <P>-- Enhance Causitic Poison: 5 pts<BR>-- Enhance Precise Shot: 5 pts<BR>-- Enhance Triple Arrow: 5 pts<BR>-- Enhance Selection: 5 pts<BR>-- Enhance Rain of Arrows: 5 pts<BR>-- Double Arrow: 1pt</P> <P>That's 26 pts for the no-brainer AAs</P> <P><U>Then you have the "might as well get them" category</U></P> <P>-- Enhance Focus Aim: 5 pts...(2 seconds might get you one more shot off with variable results)<BR>-- Enhance Killing Instinct: 5 pts  (still a base 5 min recast...so longer duration will have an occasional benefit...this AA should reduce recast as well IMO)<BR>-- Enhance Honed Reflexes: 5 pts  (still a base 5 min recast...so longer duration will have an occasional benefit...this AA should reduce recast as well IMO)</P> <P>So that's 15 more points, that while not exactly wasted, will provide increased dps only sporadically. So that totals 41 AAs.  After that....who cares?  There really isn't compelling reason to spend any of the remaining points</P> <P><U>The Throw Aways</U>:</P> <P>-- Enhance Hawk Dive...why?  The duration will already be longer than any of our stealth attacks' refresh timers<BR>-- Enhance Stream of Arrows....why?  Unless you have a really poor bow/poor arrows, this CA will still be greatly inferior to autoattack, especially with the double arrow AA.  The problem with this CA is its damage per arrow...not it's casting time per arrow.<BR>-- Enhance Fettering Poison...why?  Nice for soloers I suppose.  I haven't used this poison...ever.<BR>-- Enhance Ancillary Poison...why?  My job isn't to debuff mobs.  Oh don't get me wrong, I always use GM debuff poisons appropriate to each fight.  But that isn't my reason to be on a raid...I don't like having an AA to enhance what is at best a distant secondary role.<BR>-- Enhance Dance of Trees...why?  I never use the CA.  Nice for soloers I guess.  But I would have by far liked to have seen an increase to our offensive stance.<BR>-- Extension...why?  The range increase is trivial.  The resistance decrease is also trivial since I rarely miss arrow shots anyway.</P> <P>So in summary, I see 26 AAs that are mandatory...but only OK.  15 AAs that will be marginally useful.  And the remaining 9 AAs just throw aways.</P> <P> </P><p>Message Edited by Balerius on <span class=date_text>11-11-2006</span> <span class=time_text>03:03 PM</span>

[Teksun]

I'd rather see "Enhance Archer's Frenzy" then Dance of Trees<div></div>

[TaleraRis]

I wouldn't even say Dance of Trees is useful for soloers, honestly. As a straight soloer, I rarely use defensive stance, mostly when the mob is right in my face. Since I keep this to a minimum, I end up in offensive stance 99% of the time. So Archer's Frenzy would be a much better choice. I could see where a ranger that might tank in a group might find it more useful, but the other two extremes-raiding and soloing-I see benefit more from a boost to offensive stance.<div></div>

[Shaulin Dolamite]

I would totally agree , I think the defensive stance is nearly useless even to a soloer. With that AA being in an other wise offensive line with extension to focus aim,killer instinct and honed reflex it only makes sence to change it to some king of bonus to our offensive stance and just get rid of the Defensive stance AA.

[Torrin]

Okay.. all of you saying you don't use Defensive Stance.. have you ever played on a pvp server? or Dueled on a blue server?One of our greatest advantages is how good our Stances are currently..  In Defensive I have over 60% Avoidance.. most melee classes miss me with atleast half their attacks because of it.. and if I had a shield it would be on par with a Monk / Bruiser currently.  So Decreasing the Penalties associated with it, is a very big thing..  Imagine.. Normal (Non-Offensive buffed) Attack power with the D. Stance buffs.. Your power pool is larger, your avoidance is higher.. how is that not a good thing? Oh boohoo so it's not good if you strictly Raid.. then if that's your cup of Tea then don't spend the points in it.I raid on a PvP server, I constantly have to switch from Offensive to Defensive whenever a situation calls for it.. I run in A3 Offensive most of the time, but if I get into a PvP fight and can't get range I switch quickly (thanks to a macro) to D.Stance M1.. it keeps me alive long enough to finish off my target close up.  Even Swashies I've talked to, on my server, about the D.Stance changes say it seems way powerful.And I really see no need of changing it to Enhance Offensive Stance..  What's the point in that? Yeah you'd hit a bit harder and you'd have Quick Shot to add to your DPS.. but your power pool will still be the same, your Agility would be the same.. and your avoidance would be only slightly higher along with your Mit.   Lets Compare:Dance of Trees M1+75Agi, +43Parry, +58Defense-23 Slashing / Piercing /CrushingArcher's Frenzy Adept 3+37 Slashing / Piercing / Ranged30% Proc to do 408Ranged-17.7 DefenseWith Reduction to me Dance of Trees is the clear winner.Will I always run in D.Stance? No.  But more often than not I am forced into Melee fights.. and as such I'd rather be able to throw up D.Stance as they close the gap and only lose a little hitting power while gaining a helluvalot of survivability.Besides.. as a Raid Ranger, if you do your job correctly.. you shouldn't get hit with Melee damage of Any Type..  so Reducing the -17.7 Defense isn't a big deal.. because Defense is key to Melee / Trauma.. Not Resistances..And in my experience the only AEs and AoEs Raid Mobs have that can hit a Ranger are Spells or Spell Abilities.. .meaning Resistances are what's checked.. So to sum an entirely too long to read post up:Great job SoE on the 100% Reduction capabilities of the EoF AA for Dance of Trees. Us PvPing Rangers thank you.  <div></div>

[SpiralDown]

 Whoa, calm down rain420, everyone was just talking about their own way of doing things...  Though, people obviously forget there are varrying play styles, and pvp is often the most forgotten <span>:smileytongue: It is good that all styles seem well represented and they aren't focusing only on one, like raiding.  Good to know Dance of Trees will be of use to someone and there for is a good AP.  I have to ask though: will pvp people, or anyone, use the sprint increase?  I can't think of a use myself <span>:smileysad:</span> Oh, and being able to keep the bird up 100% of the time, given the changes, should be a good idea.  That hate reduction could help others, even if it doesn't help DPS that much.  Being able to improve the ability to debuff could help too. It isn't only about boosting our personal DPS afterall. </span><div></div>

[Roark]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Corwinus wrote:<BR>...<BR><BR>Anything i missed on which we should focus the devs attention ? plz no trolling and no flames, just constructive comments,  i am humbly just trying to get a more clear pictures of issues and an idea of priorities in what to ask the devs to fix.<BR><FONT color=#ffff33>Pathfinding is currently broke. It is supposed to give 6% run speed per point (bringing it up to a 46% run speed increase in the end. Very nice ability) it currently gives 1% per point. This will probably be fixed too. People just need to /bug it.</FONT><BR><BR>Wanderer Corwin - Ranger 70 - Oasis<BR><BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Most people are making the misconception that the 6% is off base run speed.  A 6% improvement on Pathfinding is better expressed as 16% * 1.06 for 17.06% (or just a hair over 1% increase over base run speed per point).  After all 5 points are put into Pathfinding our total value for pathfinding will be 20.8%.  To quote the standard SoE line '... It is working as intended...'

[Runewind]

Thought I'd bring this topic up to date.<img src="http://bacon.sandwich.net/beta/EQ2_000269.jpg">Okay that is what our tree looks like now. Now for description<font color="#ff0000"></font><font color="#ff0000"><u>Poison Line</u></font><font color="#ffff33"><font color="#ff0000">Enhance: Caustic Poison: Increase damage by 2% per rank.</font><font color="#ff0000"></font><font color="#ff0000"></font><font color="#ff0000">Enhance: Fettering Poison: Increase trigger chance by 3% per rank.</font><font color="#ff0000"></font><font color="#ff0000"></font><font color="#ff0000">Enhance: Ancillary Poison: Increase resist reduction by 3% per rank. Increase skill reduction by 4% per rank.Conservation (Requires 14 points spent in poison) Increases trigger count by 50%</font><u><font color="#ffff33">Trapping Line</font></u><font color="#ffff33">Enhance Snare: Any ability that has an additional snare effect has the snare effect increased by 3% per rank.Enhance Lunging Joust: Root duration is increased by 0.4 per rank.Enhance Snaring Shot: Improve reuse timer by 1 second per rank.Enhance Thorny Trap: Improve reuse timer by 6 seconds per rank.Hook Arrow (requires 20 points spent in trapping) An arrow attack that summons the enemy to you. Your next melee attack with critical.<u><font color="#6666ff">Focus Line</font></u><font color="#6666ff">Enhance Dance of Trees: Reduce Penalties by 20% per rank.</font><u><font color="#6666ff"></font></u><font color="#6666ff">Enhance Focus Fire: Increase duration by 1 second per rank.</font><u><font color="#6666ff"></font></u><font color="#6666ff">Enhance Honed Reflexes: Increases duration by 4 seconds per rank.Enhance: Killing instincts: Increase duration by 3 seconds per rank.<u></u>Extension (Requires 17 points spent in focus line) Improves the range of all ranged attacks by 15% Increase hit chance by 5%<u><font color="#cc6600">Survival Line</font></u><font color="#cc6600">Enhance Sprint: Increase run speed by 5% per rank. Reduce power cost by 5% per rank.Enhance Pathfinding: Increase movement speed by 6% per rank.Enhance Reclaimed Arrows: Improves recast timer by 1 minute per rank.Enhance Escape: Improves reuse timer by 1 minute per rank. Improves casting time by 0.30 seconds per rank.Enhance Hawk Dive: Improves duration by 2 seconds per rank.Befriend Animal: (Requires 17 points spent in survival) Charms an animal, causing it to act as your pet for the duration of the spell. Duration: 24 minutes, takes 3 concentration slots resistability: 3% easier casting: 4.44 seconds.<u><font color="#cc0066">Multi-Shot Line</font></u><font color="#cc0066">Enhance Precise Shot: Improves damage by 3% per rank.Enhance Triple Volley: Improve casting time by 0.1 seconds per rank. Improve damage by 1% per rank.</font></font></font></font></font><font color="#ffff33"><font color="#ffff33"><font color="#6666ff"><font color="#cc6600"><font color="#cc0066">Enhance Rain of Arrows: Improve casting time by 0.15 seconds per rank. Improve damage by 1% per rank.</font></font></font></font></font><font color="#ffff33"><font color="#ffff33"><font color="#6666ff"><font color="#cc6600"><font color="#cc0066">Enhance Selection:: Improve casting time by 0.2 seconds per rank. Improve damage by 1% per rank.Enhance Stream of Arrows: Improves casting time of stream shot by 0.1 per rank. Reduces duration by 1.5 seconds per rank.Double Arrow (Requires 20 points spent in Multi-Shot line) 10% chance to double attack on all ranged auto attacks.<font color="#ccffff">Sorry I couldn't put in my detail on these but I figured I should put in an up-to-date list. I don't have time right now. Hope it's helpfull.</font></font></font></font></font></font><font color="#ffff33"><font color="#ffff33"><u><font color="#6666ff"></font></u></font></font><u><font color="#ffff33"></font></u><div></div>

[Balerius]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> rain420 wrote:<BR>Okay.. all of you saying you don't use Defensive Stance.. have you ever played on a pvp server? or Dueled on a blue server?<BR><BR>One of our greatest advantages is how good our Stances are currently..  In Defensive I have over 60% Avoidance.. most melee classes miss me with atleast half their attacks because of it.. and if I had a shield it would be on par with a Monk / Bruiser currently.  So Decreasing the Penalties associated with it, is a very big thing..  Imagine.. Normal (Non-Offensive buffed) Attack power with the D. Stance buffs.. Your power pool is larger, your avoidance is higher.. how is that not a good thing?   <FONT color=#ffff00><EM>It's a nice thing...if you ever use the stance.  Which most rangers don't.<BR></EM></FONT><BR>Oh boohoo so it's not good if you strictly Raid.. then if that's your cup of Tea then don't spend the points in it.<BR>I raid on a PvP server, I constantly have to switch from Offensive to Defensive whenever a situation calls for it.. I run in A3 Offensive most of the time, but if I get into a PvP fight and can't get range I switch quickly (thanks to a macro) to D.Stance M1.. it keeps me alive long enough to finish off my target close up. <FONT color=#ffff00><EM> Why not have an AA that is good for <STRONG><U>all </U></STRONG>rangers....instead of just the few who are on PvP?<BR></EM></FONT><BR>Even Swashies I've talked to, on my server, about the D.Stance changes say it seems way powerful.<BR><BR>And I really see no need of changing it to Enhance Offensive Stance..  What's the point in that? Yeah you'd hit a bit harder and you'd have Quick Shot to add to your DPS.. but your power pool will still be the same, your Agility would be the same.. and your avoidance would be only slightly higher along with your Mit.   <BR><BR>Lets Compare:<BR><BR>Dance of Trees M1<BR>+75Agi, +43Parry, +58Defense<BR>-23 Slashing / Piercing /Crushing<BR><BR>Archer's Frenzy Adept 3<BR>+37 Slashing / Piercing / Ranged<BR>30% Proc to do 408Ranged<BR>-17.7 Defense<BR><BR>With Reduction to me Dance of Trees is the clear winner.  <FONT color=#ffff00><EM>Why do you assume that an AA to enhance our Offensive Stance would simply be a reduction in defence?  That might benefit soloers (of which I'd guess there are more of than PvP rangers btw) but I wouldn't want to see that either.  What I'd would have liked is an enhancement to our Offensive Stance that increased the proc rate or the amount of damage per proc.</EM></FONT><BR><BR>Will I always run in D.Stance? No.  But more often than not I am forced into Melee fights.. and as such I'd rather be able to throw up D.Stance as they close the gap and only lose a little hitting power while gaining a helluvalot of survivability.<BR><BR>Besides.. as a Raid Ranger, if you do your job correctly.. you shouldn't get hit with Melee damage of Any Type..  so Reducing the -17.7 Defense isn't a big deal.. because Defense is key to Melee / Trauma.. Not Resistances..<BR>And in my experience the only AEs and AoEs Raid Mobs have that can hit a Ranger are Spells or Spell Abilities.. .meaning Resistances are what's checked..   <FONT color=#ffff00><EM>Again, you setup a strawman and knocked it down.  Congrats.  Now think of how a good enhancement to our Offensive Stance could benefit <U><STRONG>all </STRONG></U>rangers.<BR></EM></FONT><BR>So to sum an entirely too long to read post up:<BR><BR>Great job SoE on the 100% Reduction capabilities of the EoF AA for Dance of Trees. Us PvPing Rangers thank you.  <BR><BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>

[Balerius]

Not too much different from the new changes except that now you can potentially get two "final" AAs.  Of course, one is still just in the "might as well" category and to get it you have to put points into the useless (to me) Enhanced Defensive Stance.  So to modify my previous post:<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P> </P> <P>After playing around with them, I'm fairly unimpressed with the AAs.  Some are OK, but from what I've seen several of the other scout classes appear to have much better AAs...particularly for raiding.  Some will increase our dps and will be no-brainers to get.  Some will be only "nice to have".  After spending about 45 AAs on those, however, the remaining AAs are basically wasted.  My line up:</P> <P><U>The No-brainers</U>:</P> <P>-- Enhance Causitic Poison: 5 pts<BR>-- Enhance Precise Shot: 5 pts<BR>-- Enhance Triple Arrow: 5 pts<BR>-- Enhance Selection: 5 pts<BR>-- Enhance Rain of Arrows: 5 pts<BR>-- Double Arrow: 1pt</P> <P>That's 26 pts for the no-brainer AAs</P> <P><U>Then you have the "might as well get them" category</U></P> <P>-- Enhance Dance of Trees: 3 pts ( a complete waste, but necessary to get to the other only "might as well get them" AAs).  I never use the CA.  Nice for PvP rangers I guess.  But I would have by far liked to have seen an enhancement to our offensive stance.<BR>-- Enhance Focus Aim: 5 pts...(2 seconds might get you one more shot off with variable results)<BR>-- Enhance Killing Instinct: 5 pts  (still a base 5 min recast...so longer duration will have an occasional benefit...this AA should reduce recast as well IMO)<BR>-- Enhance Honed Reflexes: 5 pts  (still a base 5 min recast...so longer duration will have an occasional benefit...this AA should reduce recast as well IMO)<BR>-- Extension...bleh.  The range increase is trivial.  The resistance decrease is also trivial since I rarely miss arrow shots anyway.  In the end, I suppose I might get this one...it could help on orange con boss-type mobs.</P> <P>So that's 19 more points, that while not exactly wasted, will provide increased dps only sporadically. So that totals 45 AAs.  After that....who cares?  There really isn't compelling reason to spend any of the remaining points</P> <P><U>The Throw Aways</U>:</P> <P>-- Enhance Hawk Dive...why?  The duration will already be longer than any of our stealth attacks' refresh timers<BR>-- Enhance Stream of Arrows....why?  Unless you have a really poor bow/poor arrows, this CA will still be greatly inferior to autoattack, especially with the double arrow AA.  The problem with this CA is its damage per arrow...not it's casting time per arrow.<BR>-- Enhance Fettering Poison...why?  Nice for soloers I suppose.  I haven't used this poison...ever.<BR>-- Enhance Ancillary Poison...why?  My job isn't to debuff mobs.  Oh don't get me wrong, I always use GM debuff poisons appropriate to each fight.  But that isn't my reason to be on a raid...I don't like having an AA to enhance what is at best a distant secondary role.<BR></P> <P>So in summary, I see 26 AAs that are mandatory...but only OK.  19 AAs spent to get 16 AAsthat will be marginally useful.  And the remaining 5 AAs just throw aways.</P> <P><IMG src="http://i61.photobucket.com/albums/h49/Balerius/RangerAAs1.png"></P></BLOCKQUOTE>

[TaleraRis]

Here's a thought. Why doesn't SoE do what they said they were going to do and keep PvP and PvE separate? Then, on PvP servers, you guys could have Dance of Trees. And for PvE servers, we could get Archer's Frenzy. Because right now, with this change, we have to waste points in a useless stance just to get our offensively-aimed DPS and haste buff extensions. Dance of Trees just has lack of use on PvE servers, especially for raiders, somewhat for groupers if they don't tank, and you will hardly ever find me in it as a soloer. <div></div>

[MacDaddy62]

<div></div><div></div>Balerius, I really like that build for a raiding ranger.  I didn't realize that you now get the full benefit of the final skills with just one point (thought you needed 5), so I was irritated that they were making us go through Dance of Trees on the focus line, but now it doesn't really seem to be much of a problem.  As for the final 5 points, personally, I would go with Snaring Shot to start, as I do use it for damage on raids.  However, I'm not 100% convinced that this is necessarily the best choice, as it's a pretty low priority CA, and so I'm not sure the recast reduction would actually translate into it going off more often.  Other options for those 5 points, as I see it, are Stream of Arrows (if those points actually turn it into a worthwhile CA, which they probably don't) and Hawk Dive, given the coming changes to it.  However, I really can't see myself needing more than 15 seconds of Hawk Dive ever.  I would really like to have ancillary poison as an option, as well, for those last 5 points,  since I think I would actually find it more compelling than any of the other options, but there's too much other stuff in the way to get to it, as it stands now.-Azleya Ranger and Officer of StrikeLucan D'Lere<p>Message Edited by MacDaddy62 on <span class=date_text>11-12-2006</span> <span class=time_text>03:41 PM</span>

[Torrin]

<div><blockquote><hr>Balerius wrote:<div></div> <blockquote> <hr> rain420 wrote:Okay.. all of you saying you don't use Defensive Stance.. have you ever played on a pvp server? or Dueled on a blue server?One of our greatest advantages is how good our Stances are currently..  In Defensive I have over 60% Avoidance.. most melee classes miss me with atleast half their attacks because of it.. and if I had a shield it would be on par with a Monk / Bruiser currently.  So Decreasing the Penalties associated with it, is a very big thing..  Imagine.. Normal (Non-Offensive buffed) Attack power with the D. Stance buffs.. Your power pool is larger, your avoidance is higher.. how is that not a good thing?   <font color="#ffff00"><em>It's a nice thing...if you ever use the stance.  Which most rangers don't.</em></font>Oh boohoo so it's not good if you strictly Raid.. then if that's your cup of Tea then don't spend the points in it.I raid on a PvP server, I constantly have to switch from Offensive to Defensive whenever a situation calls for it.. I run in A3 Offensive most of the time, but if I get into a PvP fight and can't get range I switch quickly (thanks to a macro) to D.Stance M1.. it keeps me alive long enough to finish off my target close up. <font color="#ffff00"><em> Why not have an AA that is good for <strong><u>all </u></strong>rangers....instead of just the few who are on PvP?</em></font>Even Swashies I've talked to, on my server, about the D.Stance changes say it seems way powerful.And I really see no need of changing it to Enhance Offensive Stance..  What's the point in that? Yeah you'd hit a bit harder and you'd have Quick Shot to add to your DPS.. but your power pool will still be the same, your Agility would be the same.. and your avoidance would be only slightly higher along with your Mit.   Lets Compare:Dance of Trees M1+75Agi, +43Parry, +58Defense-23 Slashing / Piercing /CrushingArcher's Frenzy Adept 3+37 Slashing / Piercing / Ranged30% Proc to do 408Ranged-17.7 DefenseWith Reduction to me Dance of Trees is the clear winner.  <font color="#ffff00"><em>Why do you assume that an AA to enhance our Offensive Stance would simply be a reduction in defence?  That might benefit soloers (of which I'd guess there are more of than PvP rangers btw) but I wouldn't want to see that either.  What I'd would have liked is an enhancement to our Offensive Stance that increased the proc rate or the amount of damage per proc.</em></font>Will I always run in D.Stance? No.  But more often than not I am forced into Melee fights.. and as such I'd rather be able to throw up D.Stance as they close the gap and only lose a little hitting power while gaining a helluvalot of survivability.Besides.. as a Raid Ranger, if you do your job correctly.. you shouldn't get hit with Melee damage of Any Type..  so Reducing the -17.7 Defense isn't a big deal.. because Defense is key to Melee / Trauma.. Not Resistances..And in my experience the only AEs and AoEs Raid Mobs have that can hit a Ranger are Spells or Spell Abilities.. .meaning Resistances are what's checked..   <font color="#ffff00"><em>Again, you setup a strawman and knocked it down.  Congrats.  Now think of how a good enhancement to our Offensive Stance could benefit <u><strong>all </strong></u>rangers.</em></font>So to sum an entirely too long to read post up:Great job SoE on the 100% Reduction capabilities of the EoF AA for Dance of Trees. Us PvPing Rangers thank you.  <div></div> <hr> </blockquote><hr></blockquote>I see nothing that needs adjusting with the Offensive Stance as it is.  In the average Raid I'm in, in Offensive Stance, I proc Quick Shot on about every other attack and due to the Raid Buffs most of them are Critical Hits meaning instead of 380-440 it's more like 700-900 when it goes off.  I also use the Quick Shot to burn down Mages as it interrupts some of their spells in PvP.The Point I'm getting at is Rangers need more survivability.  You can't always Hit and Run.  So a D.Stance that gives you lot of bonuses and none of the drawbacks is great. And your whole thing of "There are more Solo Rangers than on PvP servers" is absurd.  Check out a PvP server sometime, you will see how many Rangers and Swashies Solo.  Until I hit my mid 50s I was a Solo Ranger about 90% of the time.  From 50s and mid 60s I was usually Duo with another Ranger and on rare occasions a Trio with a 2nd Ranger and a healer.  I was the tank, In D.Stance with healer buffs I could tank triple up even con heroics with ease and the occasional heroic yellow con as well.  In O.Stance trying the same thing I went down too fast for the healer to keep me up.  So honestly, I don't see what they can do to the Offensive Stance that would benefit as much as the Penalty Reduction on the Defensive Stance.Slight Increase in DPS Vs Big Increase in Survivability.</div>

[Gerdos]

<P>I totally agree with Rain420.</P> <P>Sure, a chance to increase offensive stances for dps classes would be better, but i dont have any problem with a improved defensive stance.   It makes no fcuking difference to me, whether i'm on PvP or PvE ... it all comes down to play style and changing the style to suit a different situation.   AA's are about fine tuning your style of play, and as long as there's a broad sprectum of enchancements, i'm fine with that.   It's up to each person to figure out which AA's they persue ... as NONE are WASTED.   Just some are more beneficial then others.  Nor do i assume or expect every AA to be highly desireable, i'll take the bad (within reason) with the good ... and a improved defensive stance (or improved debuff poisons) is NOT BAD.</P> <P>Besides, we haven't seen all the new deities yet, and we dont know what future benefits might be available.   Perhaps there might be 1 to improve offensive stance, but if not, i can live with it, as i'm more then happy with M1 offensive stance as it is.  What i'm seeing with the AA's, the deity favours and adornments is a lot of twinking to suit different situations ... and i'm all for it.</P> <P> </P>

[MacDaddy62]

<div></div>Personally, I'm completely fine with having different AA's to suit different play styles.  My only issue has to do with the placement of the Dance of Trees AA in the overall tree.  Now, it is true that, as it stands, a raiding ranger can get all the AA's that are very desiriable to him, and indeed he needs at least 2 points in Dance of Trees to have enough in the Focus line to get Extension, but the fact remains that, other than to get to other AA's, these are wasted points for raiding rangers.  Furthermore, I don't see the Focus line as a soloer's line, really.  As I see it, the Focus and Multi-Shot lines are more for raiders, the Trapping and Survival lines are more for soloers, and the Poison line is for both.  Therefore, the Dance of Trees AA is really a soloer's AA in a raider's line.  Since it is the first in the line, it is certainly useful and easily obtainable for soloers, but just an unfortunate necessity for raiders.  I would like to see it moved to, say, where Killing Instinct is now or, even better, changed to something useful for raiders (offensive stance enhancement that makes it do more damage would be nice, yes), given that it's in what I see as a raider's AA line.-Azleya, Ranger and Officer of StrikeLucan D'Lere <div></div><p>Message Edited by MacDaddy62 on <span class=date_text>11-12-2006</span> <span class=time_text>04:24 PM</span>

[Balerius]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gerdos wrote:<BR> <P>I totally agree with Rain420.</P> <P>Sure, a chance to increase offensive stances for dps classes would be better, but i dont have any problem with a improved defensive stance.   It makes no fcuking difference to me, whether i'm on PvP or PvE ... it all comes down to play style and changing the style to suit a different situation.   AA's are about fine tuning your style of play, and as long as there's a broad sprectum of enchancements, i'm fine with that.   It's up to each person to figure out which AA's they persue ... as NONE are WASTED.   Just some are more beneficial then others.  Nor do i assume or expect every AA to be highly desireable, i'll take the bad (within reason) with the good ... and a improved defensive stance (or improved debuff poisons) is NOT BAD.</P> <P>Besides, we haven't seen all the new deities yet, and we dont know what future benefits might be available.   Perhaps there might be 1 to improve offensive stance, but if not, i can live with it, as i'm more then happy with M1 offensive stance as it is.  What i'm seeing with the AA's, the deity favours and adornments is a lot of twinking to suit different situations ... and i'm all for it.<BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>No, you <EM><U><STRONG>really don't</STRONG> </U></EM>want to see the deities.  The possible rewards for rangers, whether you're talking the end-quest cloaks or the miracles/benefits are <EM><STRONG>very very</STRONG> </EM>bad.  Unless, that is, you think +30 to your healing spells from the Tunare Quest cloak is good?  (as just one example).  The fact is, evil scouts get far greater rewards from their deities than do good scouts.</P> <P>As to the meat of your post, the problem is that I don't see a broad spectrum of AAs.  I see:</P> <P>-- Two entire lines focused exclusively on soloers with no use whatsoever to non-soloers (Survival and Trapping)</P> <P>-- Two lines that could benefit everyone but with specific AAs that are of no use (Dance of Trees useless to non-PvPers and Stream of arrows useless to everyone but especially soloers)</P> <P>-- One line (poison) that has one AA good for all (Caustic) but the remainder otherwise pretty useless...certainly to anyone who raids.</P> <P>My point is that I would like to have seen more AAs that would be of benefit to all arngers...regardless of playstyle.  And if they wanted to have some uniquely oriented on specific playstyles, fine.  Just don't commit 50% of them to soloers.<BR></P>

[Balerius]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> rain420 wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR>I see nothing that needs adjusting with the Offensive Stance as it is.  In the average Raid I'm in, in Offensive Stance, I proc Quick Shot on about every other attack and due to the Raid Buffs most of them are Critical Hits meaning instead of 380-440 it's more like 700-900 when it goes off.  <BR>I also use the Quick Shot to burn down Mages as it interrupts some of their spells in PvP.<BR><BR>The Point I'm getting at is Rangers need more survivability.  You can't always Hit and Run.  So a D.Stance that gives you lot of bonuses and none of the drawbacks is great. <BR><BR>And your whole thing of "There are more Solo Rangers than on PvP servers" is absurd.  Check out a PvP server sometime, you will see how many Rangers and Swashies Solo.  Until I hit my mid 50s I was a Solo Ranger about 90% of the time.  From 50s and mid 60s I was usually Duo with another Ranger and on rare occasions a Trio with a 2nd Ranger and a healer.  I was the tank, In D.Stance with healer buffs I could tank triple up even con heroics with ease and the occasional heroic yellow con as well.  In O.Stance trying the same thing I went down too fast for the healer to keep me up.  <BR><BR>So honestly, I don't see what they can do to the Offensive Stance that would benefit as much as the Penalty Reduction on the Defensive Stance.<BR><BR>Slight Increase in DPS Vs Big Increase in Survivability.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>My point was that there were more soloing rangers total in EQ2 than rangers on PvP servers.</P> <P>But on topic.  I'll take your word for it.  The enhancement to Dance<STRONG> </STRONG>of Trees will help you more than any enhancement to our offensive stance.  OK, fine.  My point is that if the offensive stance was enhanced, you would get at least <EM><STRONG>some</STRONG></EM> benefit (since I assume you use it at least some of the time) as would rangers on PvE servers (who use nothing but offensive stance).  The point is that for everyone not on a PvP server, the enhancement to our defensive stance <U><EM><STRONG>will help not one iota</STRONG></EM></U> since that stance is never used.  So we have an AA that will help only PvP rangers vs. a different AA that could have been of benefit to all of us to some extent.</P> <P>In the end, it appears that SoE is committed to enhancing Dance of Trees, so the point is moot.  I just don't like the further bs that I have to put 3 points into the AA that I didn't want in the first place in order to access the other AAs in that tree (not that they are all that much to write home about either fwiw).</P>

[TaleraRis]

I really wish people who AREN'T soloers wouldn't speak for those of us who are.The Survival line is useless as a line no matter how you play. A sprint increase is pointless, Pathfinding's benefit is negligible, and while Escape might be somewhat handy, it's benefit would be negligible. If the problems with Hawk Dive right now (ie not letting you cast stealth CAs non-stealth) is remedied, this might be somewhat useful. The Makeshift Arrows line is the only incredibly useful AA for soloers. The end-result charm I didn't find much use for at all. So it kept me from the small amount of melee I end up doing. That wasn't a huge benefit and having to waste points in the other useless CAs in this line just lessens the likelihood that even soloers would take it. I personally have no problems taking down up to ^ yellow mobs with a minimum of melee required, so I don't see myself taking this line.The Trapping line has more use to a soloer. Perhaps a more kiting oriented soloer, or a soloer who targets heroics. A pure soloer not out there soloing heroics would find Lunging useful, but any sort of snare is rarely used in my repetoire even on a ^ because they just die too fast to worry about kiting it. I only whip out the trap and the snares when I want to see if I can take down a heroic mob, but that's heroic, not a solo mob. So nothing here except the extra second to root really helps against what pure soloers facing solo mobs are taking down.I find most use in what you're all considering the "raider" lines. I can take a solo mob down to half or more on a pull with a stealth attack because I fire off Focus and Instincts and have Honed up while I do it. Plus extra damage on the CAs I use a lot, such as Rain (my bread and butter for groups since I can root one, back up and fire it off) Triple and Precise. Stream is the only one there I wouldn't worry about. Extension's range increase is also very nice for a soloer, so long as we have room to get farther away without mobs around, because increased range=more CAs in while mob is running toward you which means the mob is closer to death when it arrives at your feet, if not there already. Granted, as I said these are solo mobs, but if you're out taking on heroics regularly, you can't really be termed a soloer.<div></div>

[TaleraRis]

I also don't like the imbalance in the end lines. 2 still require 20, but 2 others have been cut to 17 for no reason? Poison I can understand, but they need to either bring the other two back up to 20 or lower the Trapping and Multishot where Focusing and Survival are. There's no reason for that imbalance.<div></div>

[MacDaddy62]

<div></div><div><blockquote><hr>TaleraRis wrote:I really wish people who AREN'T soloers wouldn't speak for those of us who are.The Survival line is useless as a line no matter how you play. A sprint increase is pointless, Pathfinding's benefit is negligible, and while Escape might be somewhat handy, it's benefit would be negligible. If the problems with Hawk Dive right now (ie not letting you cast stealth CAs non-stealth) is remedied, this might be somewhat useful. The Makeshift Arrows line is the only incredibly useful AA for soloers. The end-result charm I didn't find much use for at all. So it kept me from the small amount of melee I end up doing. That wasn't a huge benefit and having to waste points in the other useless CAs in this line just lessens the likelihood that even soloers would take it. I personally have no problems taking down up to ^ yellow mobs with a minimum of melee required, so I don't see myself taking this line.The Trapping line has more use to a soloer. Perhaps a more kiting oriented soloer, or a soloer who targets heroics. A pure soloer not out there soloing heroics would find Lunging useful, but any sort of snare is rarely used in my repetoire even on a ^ because they just die too fast to worry about kiting it. I only whip out the trap and the snares when I want to see if I can take down a heroic mob, but that's heroic, not a solo mob. So nothing here except the extra second to root really helps against what pure soloers facing solo mobs are taking down.I find most use in what you're all considering the "raider" lines. I can take a solo mob down to half or more on a pull with a stealth attack because I fire off Focus and Instincts and have Honed up while I do it. Plus extra damage on the CAs I use a lot, such as Rain (my bread and butter for groups since I can root one, back up and fire it off) Triple and Precise. Stream is the only one there I wouldn't worry about. Extension's range increase is also very nice for a soloer, so long as we have room to get farther away without mobs around, because increased range=more CAs in while mob is running toward you which means the mob is closer to death when it arrives at your feet, if not there already. Granted, as I said these are solo mobs, but if you're out taking on heroics regularly, you can't really be termed a soloer.<div></div><hr></blockquote>If you want to disagree on my classifications of the various lines, that's fine.  I agree that these classifications aren't as cut and dry as I implied in my previous post.  I meant them more as general guidelines, a way to compare the lines to each other, not so much as the definitive classifications, though I agree that I seem to be more definitive about it in my previous post.  I agree that perhaps the Survival line isn't that useful to anyone.  I also agree that the Focus and Multi-Shot lines are of potential use to soloers, as well.  However, my real complaint (and the point I was originally trying to make) is that the Dance of Trees AA is the first AA in a line that almost all raiders are going to take (for lack of better options), yet Dance of Trees is not at all useful to raiders.  This is why I want to see this AA moved or, even better, changed.Edit: I'd like to add that, although I am primarily a raider, it's not as if I have no soloing experience or never solo.  On the contrary, I solo pretty much everything I possibly can when not raiding.  I soloed much of all of my KoS HQ's.  I solo Poet's Palace every day.  I often solo heroic names that I see up in the overland KoS zones.  These are just a few examples of my solo activities.  So I don't see myself as at all out of touch with the needs of the soloing ranger.-Azleya, Ranger and Officer of StrikeLucan D'Lere</div><p>Message Edited by MacDaddy62 on <span class=date_text>11-12-2006</span> <span class=time_text>06:24 PM</span>

[TaleraRis]

Are you soloing all this in solo-obtained gear or the gear you got from raiding? If you're using gear such as mastercrafted or gear obtained through solo-oriented quests and saying that, that's one thing. But if you're out there using raid gear to "solo" these places and saying you're in touch with the solo experience, you're not. Just because something becomes "soloable" in high level gear does not mean that is what soloing is all about. <div></div>

[MacDaddy62]

Oh, I'm doing it in raid gear, but I think it would be dismissive and irresponsible to discount my soloing as irrelevant just because it's done in raid gear.  I may be able to solo harder mobs, but I have my own limits regarding what I can solo, and when I push them, I use all the same tools and tactics that rangers with lesser gear use to solo weaker mobs.  So the bottom line is, yes, I do feel that I can speak for the needs of soloing rangers, as well as raiding rangers.  If you choose to continue to disagree, that's fine, but I personally think it sounds like you have more of a grudge against raiders for some reason than a legitimate argument regarding why raiders can't know what soloers need.-Azleya, Ranger and Officer of StrikeLucan D'Lere<div></div>

[Drainlo]

<DIV>soloing in raid gear is much different than soling in solo obtained gear.</DIV>

[MacDaddy62]

How would you know this?  I have personally soloed in KoS in both kinds of gear, and in my experience, the only difference is the difficulty of the mobs you can solo.  The way the class plays remains essentially the same.-Azleya, Ranger and Officer of StrikeLucan D'Lere<div></div>

[TaleraRis]

<div></div><div><blockquote><hr>Drainlock wrote:<div>soloing in raid gear is much different than soling in solo obtained gear.</div><hr></blockquote>Very different. I've been in relic on beta just to try it out and tactics for soloing heroics, which are the only thing that can challenge a raid-geared ranger, are much different than for soloing actual solo mobs. Even using just the relic and the ebony bow they give you, solo mobs die in two hits at the most, falling dead at my feet. No snares required, no kiting, no traps, etc. Heroic require me to whip out the trap, the snares and have room to kite. I don't even attempt heroic in normal gear because even the best tactics can't save you from those hits they can manage to get in. Even the grey heroics I've soloed for HQs nearly kill Gwyn even using traps and kiting tactics. So. A soloer, which I am, in solo-obtained gear, which I am, has very limited times they are fighting herioc mobs. Snares, traps, faster run speed, all these are unncessary or should be unnecessary on even ^ mobs, since our root and cheap shot along with proper situating when pulling a mob and when fighting it should allow us to kill even yellow ^ without resorting to kiting. I know it can be done without kiting in masteredcrafted gear. I do it all the time. So unless someone is out there killing heroics, which soloers in solo obtained gear are not out there doing on a regular basis, soloers have limited times they will need to use kiting and snaring tactics. Thus, that line is largely useless for soloers besides Lunging, as it is for raiders. Defensive stance is limited use for us, because the key to soloing well is *not* going toe to toe with the mob. We don't last very long toe to toe in solo-obtained gear. So our best defense is keeping the mob away as much as possible. The rest of this line, which results in a ranged increase that is highly useful to soloers, includes boosts to our DPS buff, which combined with the ranged increase means we do more damage from farther for a bit longer. The same with adding in the Instincts and Honed lines. If we can do more damage from farther for longer, then the chances of our being put into melee to need the defensive stance are greatly reduced.And no, I have no grudge against raiders in general. I get upset when people write of soloing and soloers, or make generalizations when they haven't experienced that playstyle. The pure soloer playstyle is a lot different than the raid-gear soloing heroics playstyle and a raid-gear soloing heroics playstyle person is not experienced enough in the pure soloer playstyle to say which AA would be useful for us and which wouldn't.</div><p>Message Edited by TaleraRis on <span class=date_text>11-13-2006</span> <span class=time_text>12:42 AM</span>

[MacDaddy62]

<div></div><div></div><div></div>Yea, I'm perfectly willing to admit that even for solo-geared rangers, a lot of solo mobs are going to drop quickly, but then why would you want AA's geared towards fighting these sorts of mobs?  Personally, my solo experience, whether it be in solo-obtained or raid-obtained gear, has always involved going beyond the mobs that die in just a couple hits.  In my experience, once I go beyond these mobs, I have always needed to employ the same set of tactics, regardless of my gear, basically roots, stuns, and snares to keep the mob away from me.  Again, this hasn't really ever changed for me, regardless of gear, and as I see it, this is what most of the ranger's really solo-oriented AA's should be all about and what they are all about in the trapping line.  Ranger solo AA's should be about raising the limit of what you can solo.  I just don't like having an extremely solo- and PVP-oriented AA (Dance of Trees) in the way of ones I need for raiding.-Azleya, Ranger and Officer of StrikeLucan D'Lere<p>Message Edited by MacDaddy62 on <span class=date_text>11-13-2006</span> <span class=time_text>01:02 AM</span>

[Drainlo]

well said TaleraRis <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[SpiralDown]

I don't think SOE really cares about defining play styles, that's what players do.  They aren't making these lines for any specific play style.  Each line has a theme, but not a play style in mind.  Poison = increasing the effectiveness of poisons         may help rangers that took the Int AP line of the current one, use the best poisons, stack 3 up and have high Int. Trapping =  improving ranger's ability to slow and stop mobs          may help rangers that solo/duo for loot or seeing what they can do.  Someone who just solos does so to level and killing fewer but tougher mobs usually doesnt yeild as much as killing alot of weaker mobs quickly. Focus = improving ranger buffs           should help most since it ups DPS, but that isnt the focus of this line (as shown with the 1st and last skills).  The line is about improving buffs, not improving DPS.  Improving DPS is a side effect of boosting our buffs, since most our buffs are about DPS. Survival = improve ranger utility           we dont have much utility, so there isnt much to boost and is probably why this line is largely lacking. Multi-Shot = increase raw ranged DPS of rangers            should help most, since it boosts our primary role of DPS.  Rangers are built around DPS, so odds are good that everyone will want this boost     None of these lines point at PvP, duo, solo, group or raid playing styles.  They're about what you use and what you want to be better at.  Multi-shot isnt for raiders, its for rangers that want more DPS.  Survival isnt for soloers, its for rangers that want to be more self reliant.   <div></div>

[jarlaxle8]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> SpiralDown wrote:<BR>I don't think SOE really cares about defining play styles, that's what players do.  They aren't making these lines for any specific play style.  Each line has a theme, but not a play style in mind.  <BR><BR>...<BR><BR>None of these lines point at PvP, duo, solo, group or raid playing styles.  They're about what you use and what you want to be better at.  Multi-shot isnt for raiders, its for rangers that want more DPS.  Survival isnt for soloers, its for rangers that want to be more self reliant.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>At last someone who seems to understand the idea. :smileyhappy: It's not about PvP, PvE, solo, group or raid lines. It's about themes.</P> <P>As for Dance of Trees: I soloed alot, in the sense of what solo is. True, most times I took the mobs down in offensive. But for some yellow ^ mobs I was glad that I could switch to def stance, cause not always it went perfect and the mob was on me, stun and root down, no room to get away. With def stance I was able to survive a bit longer till root and stun where up again.<BR>And now that I'm 70, there is no 'solo' content worth soloing anyway. So I see how far I get in dungeons and solo low heroics while doing claymore. Don't see what's so bad about something that helps Rangers to survive longer. Most other classes can survive longer, even cloth wearers (roots, mezzes, stuns).<BR>I do this only when I find no groups of course. And yes, I die a lot. But I like to try stuff out. :smileyvery-happy:<BR></P>

[TaleraRis]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> MacDaddy62 wrote:<BR> Yea, I'm perfectly willing to admit that even for solo-geared rangers, a lot of solo mobs are going to drop quickly, but then why would you want AA's geared towards fighting these sorts of mobs?  Personally, my solo experience, whether it be in solo-obtained or raid-obtained gear, has always involved going beyond the mobs that die in just a couple hits.  In my experience, once I go beyond these mobs, I have always needed to employ the same set of tactics, regardless of my gear, basically roots, stuns, and snares to keep the mob away from me.  Again, this hasn't really ever changed for me, regardless of gear, and as I see it, this is what most of the ranger's really solo-oriented AA's should be all about and what they are all about in the trapping line.  Ranger solo AA's should be about raising the limit of what you can solo.  I just don't like having an extremely solo- and PVP-oriented AA (Dance of Trees) in the way of ones I need for raiding.<BR><BR>-Azleya, Ranger and Officer of Strike<BR>Lucan D'Lere <P>Message Edited by MacDaddy62 on <SPAN class=date_text>11-13-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>01:02 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>It's not solo oriented. That's what I've been trying to explain to you. It comes in handy *if* the mob gets close, but a good soloer doesn't let them get close for long. I've used it situationally on mobs at times, but not enough to warrant an AA designed around it. Archer's Frenzy boosting is far more valuable even to a soloer.<BR>