Where our damage comes from and how this can be improved post-LU#20

[Fennir]

<div><span>(pulled from a thread from in testing feedback, figured it was better suited here)<blockquote><hr>Blackguard wrote:If 55% of Ranger damage is based on procs, there's more that needs to be fixed.<hr></blockquote>I made this picture just to give you a general idea of how much we rely on procs.  These are common T6 raid fights.I am using Translucent Adeste's Disruption poison.  There is no rogue debuffing resistances on this raid.These combat arts are at master 1:Archer's Frenzy (offensive proc stance, shows up as Quick Shot on the parse)Triple ArrowPrecise ShotSnaring ShotStealthy Fire (Master II)Debilitating ArrowCulling the WeakAncient Venom is my Valian Bow's 12% attack proc.  6% of my damage alone sometimes!<img src="http://www.improvmasta.org/eq2/procs.jpg">Without my procs, I would have been outdamaged by a monk on that last one.  Naturally, I won't be completely procless after LU#20, but with normalization, it will be a great deal less.What I'm most concerned with is not the raw number at the end, but how it compares to other classes that I am supposed to be competing with in my DPS tier.I can suggest a few things to adjust to better suit the proc changes:1.  Lower the recast on our only green AOE, Storm of Arrows.  It is currently 3 minutes.  1.5 minutes would be much better.2.  Lower the recast on the Triple line.  This will no longer be proc crazy, and as such will be a lot less useful with a recast of 1m.  30 seconds would be more appropriate.3.  Increase the duration on Focus Fire or make it a super offensive stance conc buff.  It would be nice to be able to completely give up our melee ability to have a much faster autoattack in between CAs.  If not a conc-buff, maybe a 36s duration on Focus Fire instead of the current 10s.  10s is a joke.4.  LET US FINISH HEROIC OPPORTUNITIES WITH OUR BOW SHOTS.  Our main 10 (yes ten) attacks do absolutely nothing to spin HOs.  That seems wrong to me, especially considering we will need them more after LU#20.I'm sure there are other suggestions that may be better but those are the best I could come up with off the top of my head.</span></div><div></div>

[pharacyde]

<div></div><p>What they do is just make you proc on the first hit of your CA.</p><p> </p><p>So triple arrow will only have 1 chance to proc instead of 3</p><p>Precise shot will have 1 chance to proc instead of 2</p><p>Stream of arrows, I wonder, since we have a casting time for each arrow we shoot. So it might still proc on each shot.</p><p>No more procs on quick shot, sot hat's a 30% reduce in procs for sure.</p><p>So you might get a 40% reduce in procs of your 50% proc damage (on average). That's like still 30% proc damage.</p>

[Fennir]

That's not all they're doing, actually.They're normalizing combat arts instead of having them tied to the weapon we use (longbow), so instead of having the same chance to proc on a bow shot that I do now (very high), it will be very low.  Very, very low.  Our chance to proc will be much worse than other scouts, most likely.So the proc reduction is going to be a lot worse than 40%.  Closer to 80-90% reduction from reports on beta.<div></div>

[Visay1]

 Thats great Fennir. Those pictures are easy show how much of our damage came from procs.To play my Ranger on beta now is very hard. 60^ solo mobs are a 50/50 fight now and that is with some Master1 and Legendary/Fabled equip. Everyone not playing on beta can probably not understand how hard we were hit. The 1 proc per Mulit hit CA is not the biggest problem. The problem is that the poisons now only have a proc chance of 8,3-12,5% on our Bow CAs and not the 60% we were used to.<div></div>

[Tlaloc]

<div></div><p>This is exactly the kind of analysis that needs to be done and presented post LU20, but please remember LU20 is not out yet and things could still be changed.  Great job on the graphs keep this info and logs to back it up and do similar comparisons post LU20 and present the differences.  I am very curious to see what the results will be.</p><p>Lathu</p><p>54 Assassin - Befallen</p>

[Memory]

EXCELLENT WORK !that shows what the new dps is gonna be at if ya take procs away.<div></div>

[roblinb]

<div></div>Wow that's major enough to [Removed for Content] off even the casual players lol... with or without Valian's bow

[Blackin_DeMast]

<div></div>Excellent graphs.  I hope we can get complrable data post LU 20 or even on the current test environment.

[Pins]

<blockquote><hr>pharacyde wrote:<div></div><p>What they do is just make you proc on the first hit of your CA.</p><p> </p><p>So triple arrow will only have 1 chance to proc instead of 3</p><p>Precise shot will have 1 chance to proc instead of 2</p><p>Stream of arrows, I wonder, since we have a casting time for each arrow we shoot. So it might still proc on each shot.</p><p>No more procs on quick shot, sot hat's a 30% reduce in procs for sure.</p><p>So you might get a 40% reduce in procs of your 50% proc damage (on average). That's like still 30% proc damage.</p><hr></blockquote>As of yesterday, poison was still procing off of quickshot. So that is currently not going away.Also I've noticed auto-attack damage from rangers is up a LOT. Well at least comparing T7 raids w/ a T7 fabled bow to T6 raids. Against a 1.4 million HP dragon, a ranger did 746.00dps, or 194707 damage, of which 76872(39%) was auto-attack. Also this was on monday, when procs were completely [Removed for Content]'d, and only poison was working, of which did 25428(13%) damage. So add in procs and your DPS isn't changing that much. The group the ranger was in was Someotherclass(I forgot which), Illusionist, Wizard, Warden, Defiler, Ranger. He was equipped in T6 Fabled with a helm and bracers from T7 and was using mostly T6 jewlery with some T5. Auto-attack was doing 482-2820 damage, and he was at the haste cap.Compare to his DPS on live of a similiar duration fight, that being the life and death ring, he did 763.41 DPS and totalled 193143 damage, of which posion was 33%(6386<img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />, quickshot was 22%(43010), and auto-attack was 5%(9395). So there is a huge increase of auto-attack damage that is being made up for the lose of procs as far as I can see from the parses. Keep in mind, the T7 parse was from when procs were barely working at all. So once I get some real parses from this ranger with the latest update I'll post them, and show you that the DPS you guys are doing isn't as badly diminished as everybody is freaking out thinking that it is.

[Memory]

<span><blockquote><hr>Pinski wrote:<blockquote><hr>pharacyde wrote:<div></div><p>What they do is just make you proc on the first hit of your CA.</p><p> </p><p>So triple arrow will only have 1 chance to proc instead of 3</p><p>Precise shot will have 1 chance to proc instead of 2</p><p>Stream of arrows, I wonder, since we have a casting time for each arrow we shoot. So it might still proc on each shot.</p><p>No more procs on quick shot, sot hat's a 30% reduce in procs for sure.</p><p>So you might get a 40% reduce in procs of your 50% proc damage (on average). That's like still 30% proc damage.</p><hr></blockquote>As of yesterday, poison was still procing off of quickshot. So that is currently not going away.Also I've noticed auto-attack damage from rangers is up a LOT. Well at least comparing T7 raids w/ a T7 fabled bow to T6 raids. Against a 1.4 million HP dragon, a ranger did 746.00dps, or 194707 damage, of which 76872(39%) was auto-attack. Also this was on monday, when procs were completely [Removed for Content]'d, and only poison was working, of which did 25428(13%) damage. So add in procs and your DPS isn't changing that much. The group the ranger was in was Someotherclass(I forgot which), Illusionist, Wizard, Warden, Defiler, Ranger. He was equipped in T6 Fabled with a helm and bracers from T7 and was using mostly T6 jewlery with some T5. Auto-attack was doing 482-2820 damage, and he was at the haste cap.Compare to his DPS on live of a similiar duration fight, that being the life and death ring, he did 763.41 DPS and totalled 193143 damage, of which posion was 33%(6386<img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />, quickshot was 22%(43010), and auto-attack was 5%(9395). So there is a huge increase of auto-attack damage that is being made up for the lose of procs as far as I can see from the parses. Keep in mind, the T7 parse was from when procs were barely working at all. So once I get some real parses from this ranger with the latest update I'll post them, and show you that the DPS you guys are doing isn't as badly diminished as everybody is freaking out thinking that it is.<hr></blockquote>sounds reasonable that they only way atm on test is to max out haste and go on autoattack because it still uses delay for procs.but those numbers only work for [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ing raids in a well attuned group.you forgot about our 350-400 dps solo and even less in heroic groups.you cant compare a raidbuffed lv 70 ranger with full masters, full t7+ legendary gear, AAs maxed out maybe too.so its pretty bad, just read the right numbers under the right conditions before posting everythings fine</span><div></div>

[Fennir]

Yeah there are definitely going to be ways we change our attack method for sure, but that probably won't be enough to keep us in T1 DPS.  On AOE fights especially we will be very. very weak.I also don't want to have to wait for my trap to refresh for every single solo fight.  Our combat arts are definitely going to need to be looked at.<div></div>

[Jayad]

<div></div><div>Also, doing auto-attack damage requires high level arrows.  Something to keep in mind, anyways.  You can currently do most of your dps with cheap tin/iron arrows because CAs dont' require T5/T6 arrows, but that won't be the case if auto-attack is a big factor in damage.  Yes you can summon some but never enough.  In a raid, you would need rare arrows to do real auto-attack damage and they are very expensive.</div><div> </div><div>It's good to see some hard data even if I think it's a very narrow situation view. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></div><p>Message Edited by Xney on <span class="date_text">02-16-2006</span><span class="time_text">02:00 PM</span></p>

[leafnin]

<div></div><p>So basically we are going back to before LU 13 just in the way we need to do damage.  Max Haste and STR glad I went that way with my AA setup I have planned. </p><p> </p><p>Falcon</p><p>60 Ranger</p><p>Kithicor</p>

[Bayler_x]

<span><blockquote><hr>leafnin wrote:<div></div><p>So basically we are going back to before LU 13 just in the way we need to do damage.  Max Haste and STR glad I went that way with my AA setup I have planned. </p><p> </p><p>Falcon</p><p>60 Ranger</p><p>Kithicor</p><hr></blockquote>Before LU13, soloers were much better off than they will be now, though.  We had access to all of our combat arts on the run then, so we could kite effectively.  Now, we'll have serious solo woes.</span><div></div>

[Jay]

<div></div><p>Great analysis, great ideas. Thanks for posting the graphs. Shader's right, soloer's are going to get hit extremely hard if this goes in as expected - it's like the Gimpy Ranger age without kiting. Kiting was the only thing that made Gimpy Rangering manageable without basically being reduced to melee for 70% of the time.</p><p>I'm an archer. We do have a niche in this game - we are, and should continue to be, the <strong>best</strong> ranged physical DPS class out there. That's our purpose, plain and simple. Relegating us to using our bows to pull and then sit there grinding away with a pair of knives isn't really 'ranged DPS.'</p><p>We're on the right track. Forgive me for being a cheeseball and trying to keep morale up, but I can't parse and do math and make cool graphs...I'm not the sharpest crayon in the box.. but I can post a lot <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

[klepp]

<div></div>my biggest issue is probably the same issue others have... damage from procs equations aside... all technicalities aside... simply put... If we have to "buy" our dps we should be at the top.  If we dont use poison we're far from the top so until they either A) make other classes buy dps or B) put us on top when using poisons....  Might as well re roll a mage yeash.   Nah scratch that.. we buff runspeed!! ubah!

[ChaosUndivided]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>klepp wrote:<div></div>my biggest issue is probably the same issue others have... damage from procs equations aside... all technicalities aside... simply put... If we have to "buy" our dps we should be at the top.  If we dont use poison we're far from the top so until they either A) make other classes buy dps or B) put us on top when using poisons....  Might as well re roll a mage yeash.   Nah scratch that.. we buff runspeed!! ubah!<hr></blockquote><p>Wrong, Sorceror's get Less armour, and More utility to be equal DPS,</p><p> We get more Armour, slightly less utility, Positional Restrictions and Pay For our DPS.</p><p>It's a fair trade off.</p>

[Fennir]

Sorry klepp, but that's an issue for a different thread, and one the devs have repeatedly stated they don't believe in.  They have given us damage tiers that we should fall in, and said that sometimes we will be on top and sometimes we won't, but never guaranteed a spot anywhere except inside our tier.  That won't change.This is simply about making sure we're in our tier.<div></div>

[Tes Mar'a]

<div><span><blockquote><hr>ChaosUndivided wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr>klepp wrote:<div></div>my biggest issue is probably the same issue others have... damage from procs equations aside... all technicalities aside... simply put... If we have to "buy" our dps we should be at the top.  If we dont use poison we're far from the top so until they either A) make other classes buy dps or B) put us on top when using poisons....  Might as well re roll a mage yeash.   Nah scratch that.. we buff runspeed!! ubah!<hr></blockquote><p>Wrong, Sorceror's get Less armour, and More utility to be equal DPS,</p><p> We get more Armour, slightly less utility, Positional Restrictions and Pay For our DPS.</p><p>It's a fair trade off.</p><hr></blockquote>I don't see how you can say that the armour we gets are as good as the utility that Sorceros gets.If you are on raids that extra armour have no use. It can't save me, if the mob is on me, then I'm dead anyway.In groups, yes I can take a hit or 2 extre then the soureror, but I also have a higher AGI that helps me there. And then again, if the mob is on me, then something is wrong.</span></div>

[ErikShaf]

Ugh, this is going to hurt DPS. But as of right now Rangers are super far in a long duration DPS encounter, there is no doubt about it. I don't care if the Ranger is at all Adept IIs and someone else is at 100% Masters, the ranger will be winning. So though it may hurt, it is more of a balance issue, not a nerf. Though many other classes will be feeling the sting also. But on another note...<b>{ Personal Rant }</b>If we are on the subject of ranting.. let me add that I hate how the good aligned Ranger of Qeynos use poisons on their enemies. Though there is no way to change that, I really wish we did some sort of damage like Fire + Ice (elemental), and Lightning (magic) that we were able to cast. Of course having a material component would be the most likely way to balance out the expenses. I personally think it would be easier to add those instead of poisons, with each proc buff having two concentration slots. 30-second recasts if switching between procs, so you can't just do it inbetween fights if you forget to change and still dominate in DPS. I don't know, I just really hate how the good aligned Ranger is using poisons. Bleh!Am I the only one who feels the same on this issue?<div></div>

[ChaosUndivided]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Tes Mar'a wrote:<div><span><blockquote><hr>ChaosUndivided wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr>klepp wrote:<div></div>my biggest issue is probably the same issue others have... damage from procs equations aside... all technicalities aside... simply put... If we have to "buy" our dps we should be at the top.  If we dont use poison we're far from the top so until they either A) make other classes buy dps or B) put us on top when using poisons....  Might as well re roll a mage yeash.   Nah scratch that.. we buff runspeed!! ubah!<hr></blockquote><p>Wrong, Sorceror's get Less armour, and More utility to be equal DPS,</p><p> We get more Armour, slightly less utility, Positional Restrictions and Pay For our DPS.</p><p>It's a fair trade off.</p><hr></blockquote>I don't see how you can say that the armour we gets are as good as the utility that Sorceros gets.If you are on raids that extra armour have no use. It can't save me, if the mob is on me, then I'm dead anyway.In groups, yes I can take a hit or 2 extre then the soureror, but I also have a higher AGI that helps me there. And then again, if the mob is on me, then something is wrong.</span></div><hr></blockquote>Armour isn't there to save us in raids, it's there to help with soloing. Sorceror's get roots and stuns instead so don't need to melee the mobs, we on the other hand need to go toe to toe so get Med armour.

[Tes Mar'a]

<div><span><blockquote><hr>ChaosUndivided wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr>Tes Mar'a wrote:<div><span><blockquote><hr>ChaosUndivided wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr>klepp wrote:<div></div>my biggest issue is probably the same issue others have... damage from procs equations aside... all technicalities aside... simply put... If we have to "buy" our dps we should be at the top.  If we dont use poison we're far from the top so until they either A) make other classes buy dps or B) put us on top when using poisons....  Might as well re roll a mage yeash.   Nah scratch that.. we buff runspeed!! ubah!<hr></blockquote><p>Wrong, Sorceror's get Less armour, and More utility to be equal DPS,</p><p> We get more Armour, slightly less utility, Positional Restrictions and Pay For our DPS.</p><p>It's a fair trade off.</p><hr></blockquote>I don't see how you can say that the armour we gets are as good as the utility that Sorceros gets.If you are on raids that extra armour have no use. It can't save me, if the mob is on me, then I'm dead anyway.In groups, yes I can take a hit or 2 extre then the soureror, but I also have a higher AGI that helps me there. And then again, if the mob is on me, then something is wrong.</span></div><hr></blockquote>Armour isn't there to save us in raids, it's there to help with soloing. Sorceror's get roots and stuns instead so don't need to melee the mobs, we on the other hand need to go toe to toe so get Med armour.<hr></blockquote>Ok in solo there is a trade there, but most like to play in groups, and go on raids.And this info that is given are from raids, and groups.Also the point of what you want in you group/raid.   A T1 DPS, og a T1 DPS whit utilitys.And then there is all that bout that we have to buy poison do do the damage that we do.</span></div>

[The Ban]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Tes Mar'a wrote:<div><span><blockquote><hr>ChaosUndivided wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr>Tes Mar'a wrote:<div><span><blockquote><hr>ChaosUndivided wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr>klepp wrote:<div></div>my biggest issue is probably the same issue others have... damage from procs equations aside... all technicalities aside... simply put... If we have to "buy" our dps we should be at the top.  If we dont use poison we're far from the top so until they either A) make other classes buy dps or B) put us on top when using poisons....  Might as well re roll a mage yeash.   Nah scratch that.. we buff runspeed!! ubah!<hr></blockquote><p>Wrong, Sorceror's get Less armour, and More utility to be equal DPS,</p><p> We get more Armour, slightly less utility, Positional Restrictions and Pay For our DPS.</p><p>It's a fair trade off.</p><hr></blockquote>I don't see how you can say that the armour we gets are as good as the utility that Sorceros gets.If you are on raids that extra armour have no use. It can't save me, if the mob is on me, then I'm dead anyway.In groups, yes I can take a hit or 2 extre then the soureror, but I also have a higher AGI that helps me there. And then again, if the mob is on me, then something is wrong.</span></div><hr></blockquote>Armour isn't there to save us in raids, it's there to help with soloing. Sorceror's get roots and stuns instead so don't need to melee the mobs, we on the other hand need to go toe to toe so get Med armour.<hr></blockquote>Ok in solo there is a trade there, but most like to play in groups, and go on raids.And this info that is given are from raids, and groups.Also the point of what you want in you group/raid.   A T1 DPS, og a T1 DPS whit utilitys.And then there is all that bout that we have to buy poison do do the damage that we do.</span></div><hr></blockquote><p>Well that extra defense really does help in raids and groups. In raids that are yellow can that extra armor allows the Predators to survive much longer than the sorcerors and avoid death. Same with groups.</p><p>Also Rangers are much less likely to pull aggro than Wizards/Warlocks since they get a threat reducer.</p>

[Skratttt]

<div>As a raiding Assassin i guess the OP has never been to a PPTR raid or Gates or anything in T6......U WILL DIE if you get aggro...there is no survival</div><div> </div><div>Orange mobs = 1 hit  death</div><div> </div><div>Yelllow =2-3 hit death depending on equip</div><div> </div><div>Named?? = Breathes on you and guess what....yes!! = death...and MT mad at you cause mob running arround now</div><div> </div>

[Visay1]

<div></div> Our Wizards and Warlocks do around 700 dps now at 60 without achievements. So I need to wait for lvl 70 get 50 AAs and a fabled bow with a damage rating of 90+ and get full haste to do the damage that they do now? Hmm. That has to change<div></div><p>Message Edited by Visay1 on <span class="date_text">02-16-2006</span><span class="time_text">11:06 PM</span></p>

[coltla]

<blockquote><hr>Jay42 wrote:<div></div><p>I'm not the sharpest crayon in the box.. but I can post a lot <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><hr></blockquote>LOL!

[SalBlu]

<div></div><p>Fennir:</p><p>Any way that you can make a response to this thread <a target="_blank" href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=39&message.id=22001">http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=39&message.id=22001</a> in regards to damage potential now compared to after the change goes live?  I've been trying to compile a bit of information about how much actual DPS you're losing rather than working with all the speculation that I've seen.  I'm not totally convinced yet that this is going to be as bad as we all think it is.</p>

[Memory]

<span><blockquote><hr>SalBluee wrote:<div></div><p>Fennir:</p><p>Any way that you can make a response to this thread <a href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=39&message.id=22001" target="_blank">http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=39&message.id=22001</a> in regards to damage potential now compared to after the change goes live?  I've been trying to compile a bit of information about how much actual DPS you're losing rather than working with all the speculation that I've seen.  I'm not totally convinced yet that this is going to be as bad as we all think it is.</p><hr></blockquote>dont really need calculations when i parse my numbers on beta server.</span><div></div>

[Prowler19]

I may not be an expert on high-end T6 raiding and ranger DPS relationships, but I have always thought it strange that most of my damage comes from poison procs. Flame me all you want, but I am glad they are lowering proc damage. All it means is they'll be upping the rest of our damage to compensate for this big change. In an average group, I do between 60% and 40% of the total damage my group does (provided there isn't another ranger in my group). Every class I've ever duoed with has been awe stuck when I (more often then not) kill solo mobs before they even reach me.This proc change does affect everyone. True it'll affect rangers the most, but maybe it should. Its crazy to think that we rangers are not overpowered right now. We are for sure in any typical situation right now (raiding isn't a typical situation, priests are reduced to straight healing during raids and I know that's not all my fury alt brings to the table).My point here is lets wait and see what happens when LU 20 hits the live servers. I'm not happy about having my class be less effective then it is right now, but as long as I can still compete with other T1 damage classes then I can deal with it.--Feighni Spiritarrow 56 Ranger, Unrest<div></div>

[leafnin]

<div><blockquote><hr>Bayler_xev wrote:<span><blockquote><hr>leafnin wrote:<div></div><p>So basically we are going back to before LU 13 just in the way we need to do damage.  Max Haste and STR glad I went that way with my AA setup I have planned. </p><p> </p><p>Falcon</p><p>60 Ranger</p><p>Kithicor</p><hr></blockquote>Before LU13, soloers were much better off than they will be now, though.  We had access to all of our combat arts on the run then, so we could kite effectively.  Now, we'll have serious solo woes.</span><div></div><hr></blockquote>Yeah I'm figuring that, but can't really comment since I'm not in Beta.  I'm just making a educated guess on raid/group damage sources. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  I don't even want to think about the solo issue since I solo quite a bit.</div><div> </div><div>Falcon</div><div>60 Ranger</div><div>Kithicor</div>

[Fennir]

<div><span><blockquote><hr>Prowler19 wrote:I All it means is they'll be upping the rest of our damage to compensate for this big change</blockquote></span><blockquote><hr>Well it's one thing to hope for that.It's another to know the devs track record and to know that this won't happen unless they know exactly what they're dealing with.  As you can see by the dev post, apparently they didn't even 'know' that over half our damage comes from procs.  Because of our data, now they do.  We'd rather be "re-fixed" by LU#21, not #25.And to the poster who wants to clarify my numbers with numbers from beta,  you will be able to when you see parses from beta or Test.  With normalized combat arts and procs on only the first hit on multi-hit CAs, we will be taking a huge dive and will be well below assassins, warlocks, and conjs (probably rogues too).  Just wait for the parses to start appearing and you'll see. =)</blockquote></div>

[Prowler19]

I am guessing that the parsing numbers from beta have changed from day to day right? I mean it is beta. I read somewhere that there was a day or two where the only procs that worked right were poison, and other abilities/weapons wouldn't even proc. Many many features were tested and tweaked in the DoF beta in regards to LU13. As such, things could easily change when they hit the live servers even though that's just a few days away.Provided you're right and they don't change anything else related to our class... our damage decreases dramatically and we fall all the way down to T2 or T3 DPS.How long do you think it'll take before we're right back on top blowing everyone else away? Before LU13 people laughed at rangers. Post LU13 we became gods. My advice if they screw us over again, wait it out and they'll adventually overcompenstate back in the direction we're all used to.There's always PvP while you wait <span>:smileywink: I know that's what I'm going to be doing.</span>--Feighni Spiritarrow 56 Ranger, Unrest<div></div>

[Memory]

<span><blockquote><hr>Prowler19 wrote:I am guessing that the parsing numbers from beta have changed from day to day right? I mean it is beta. I read somewhere that there was a day or two where the only procs that worked right were poison, and other abilities/weapons wouldn't even proc. Many many features were tested and tweaked in the DoF beta in regards to LU13. As such, things could easily change when they hit the live servers even though that's just a few days away.Provided you're right and they don't change anything else related to our class... our damage decreases dramatically and we fall all the way down to T2 or T3 DPS.How long do you think it'll take before we're right back on top blowing everyone else away? Before LU13 people laughed at rangers. Post LU13 we became gods. My advice if they screw us over again, wait it out and they'll adventually overcompenstate back in the direction we're all used to.There's always PvP while you wait <span>:smileywink: I know that's what I'm going to be doing.</span>--Feighni Spiritarrow 56 Ranger, Unrest<div></div><hr></blockquote>Parsing data from beta didnt change the last 4 or 5 five days (since the breakdown patch)AAs still broken and senseless like they used to be.</span><div></div>

[Kule]

Incase anybody hasn't mentioned it, (havn't read the whole thread) monks will be taking a hit form the proc "nerf". Take a look at a CA or two of thiers..Very interesting thread.<div></div>

[Tevilspek]

<div></div><p>Well there's been a lot of 'outside' classes weighing in on this proc issue throughout the various threads, with comments ranging from sadness to 'omg the sky is falling!' rants. So I thought I'd download that Combat Stats thing and give it a whirl too.This is from about 1hour 30mins or so fighting in Silent City.Guardian, Defiler, Fury, Ranger (5<img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />, Ranger (57), Wizard (5<img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />.We didn't do anything special. I didn't mention that I was recording stats. We just ran around killing everything in the vicinity that we could find.This is using Adests' with no debuff poison or stun poison for me:<img src="http://members.iinet.net.au/[email protected]/EQ2/Screens/dpsparse1.jpg"></p><p>This is the other Ranger, who's name I have blurred out as I did not tell her about this info (I only decided to post it afterwards when I loaded up the graphs and went "Oh no..&quot<img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />. Not sure what poison setup the other Ranger was using:<img src="http://members.iinet.net.au/[email protected]/EQ2/Screens/dpsparse2.jpg">As said, was about an hour and a half of killing white and yellow groups, ^^groups, ^^^s.I think the graphs speak for themselves really.But on the same token, just to show why I am NOT against some sort of DPS realignment (who can say we're not overpowered and keep a straight face?), this is the graph from the Wizard who was there with us, going hard at it the whole time and complaining of not getting to cast spells in time:<img src="http://members.iinet.net.au/[email protected]/EQ2/Screens/dpsparse3.jpg">Both Rangers nearing double the total damage of the Wizard.</p><p>It's very obvious that we do way too much damage, even though we do pay for it which blows, but all the same, for a Dev to pretty much laugh at the fact of us doing 55% damage through procs is in itself laughable.That's a sustained 1.5 hours of fighting by two Rangers. Procs are the Ranger's lifeblood fair and square.Take that away and we'll need to be compensated somehow.(... so I can't wait for LU#24 when it happens)Just some food for thought anyhoot.</p>

[Beldin_]

<div></div>Wizards need more DPS, thats the thing, when i look into parses where we were in Silent City with a wizard and swashie the wizard was mostly even far behind the swashie .. so the solution can't be to put rangers also behind swashies but put the wizards in front.

[Sirlutt]

looking at your data.. and the data i posted in another thread i think the problem is our poison procing from quickshot... i think if you stop that from happening, the amount our poison proc'd would be cut by 1/3 easily .. couple that with a reduction in the casting time of bows to 3.0, with a likewise reduction in arrow damage for auto attacks and I think you would see Rangers drop right into where they are supposed to be.Poisons procing from our offensive proc is what has elevated our damage beyond even what 90% of rangers think it should be.Devs, please consider this, dont nerf procs as a whole.  Its our procs that are the issue, not the procs of other classes and the data points to our poison in particular going off too much. I know for a fact it procs off of our offensive quick strike proc so remove that.if i knew how i'd go through the test data i used and remove the procs of poison that came from quick strike and see if that made much of a difference.<div></div>

[Sirlutt]

(1140225919)[Fri Feb 17 20:25:19 2006] YOUR Quick Shot hits a flame tornado for 338 points of piercing damage.(1140225919)[Fri Feb 17 20:25:19 2006] YOUR declining periodic poison hits a flame tornado for 440 points of poison damage.(1140225919)[Fri Feb 17 20:25:19 2006] YOUR declining periodic poison hits a flame tornado for 72 points of poison damage.(1140225919)[Fri Feb 17 20:25:19 2006] YOUR Divine Strike hits a flame tornado for 106 points of divine damage.(1140225919)[Fri Feb 17 20:25:19 2006] A flame tornado is struck with a holy weapon!(1140225919)[Fri Feb 17 20:25:19 2006] Lafear hits a flame tornado for 56 points of crushing damage.(1140225919)[Fri Feb 17 20:25:19 2006] a flame tornado tries to crush Torum, but Torum blocks.(1140225920)[Fri Feb 17 20:25:20 2006] YOU hit a flame tornado for 613 points of piercing damage.(1140225920)[Fri Feb 17 20:25:20 2006] Lafear's The Pain of Confession smites a flame tornado draining 137 points of power.(1140225920)[Fri Feb 17 20:25:20 2006] A flame tornado is struck by vengeance.(1140225920)[Fri Feb 17 20:25:20 2006] Lafear is struck by vengeance.(1140225920)[Fri Feb 17 20:25:20 2006] YOUR Quick Shot hits a flame tornado for 338 points of piercing damage.(1140225920)[Fri Feb 17 20:25:20 2006] YOUR Gleaming Strike hits a flame tornado for 199 points of magic damage.(1140225920)[Fri Feb 17 20:25:20 2006] YOUR declining periodic poison hits a flame tornado for 440 points of poison damage.(1140225920)[Fri Feb 17 20:25:20 2006] YOUR declining periodic poison hits a flame tornado for 72 points of poison damage.thats the problem right there.. quick Shot procs, then at one point procs both a gleaming strike and a poison.. that shouldnt happen.. they need to fix our offensive proc to NOT proc anything else... thats all.. no nerfing procs across the board, no changing how procs work.. just stop procs from procing procs (LOL)..<div></div>

[Crychtonn]

<div></div><p>People you missed the reason they are changing the procs to only go off on the first attack.  The main focus of the change wasn't do from Ranger CA's but from Bruiser and Monk CA's.  Currently Illusionist have a buff proc they can put on another class that is only suppose to go off three times.</p><p>Do to game mechanics if they put this buff on a Bruiser who uses his CA that does eight (think that is correct) attacks the buff procs off all eight attacks.  Bruisers more then Monks have several of these multiple attack CA's.  When used in combination they can get upwards of 20 procs off the Illusionist buff that is only suppose to go off three times.  Used with their AE attacks this buff can do huge damage.  The Dev's seem to be unable to make a fix to the buffs like the Illusionist one so they work correctly.  Instead they found a work around that sadly hurts many other classes.</p><p>If you go check Blackguards post regarding this part of the proc change he pretty much states this is why they are making this change.  They can't fix a few buff spells so instead they're just going to screw up a ton more so those few buff spells can't be exploited anymore.</p><p> </p>

[Longtrang]

<div></div>In that case, it seems it would make a heck of a lot more sense to just change the Illusionist spell. What are we talking about anyhow something like Prismatic Havoc?

[Bayler_x]

There are lots of adjustments they could make without a major upheaval, to tweek our damage, if the goal is just to bring our damage in line.  But honestly, it probably is a good thing to change the proc mechanics.  As it is right now, there's absolutely no way they can balance any proc buff spells or equipment for use on rangers vs. non-rangers.What I want to see is recognition that this change will necessitate a complete reconstruction of the ranger class.  We don't need to do tons more damage than anyone else to still be the class we love.  But we do need to be able to contribute to groups and raids.  And we do need to be highly self reliant when soloing.  We need to be able to fight at range, in all cases.Instead of speculation on what they should do *instead* of the proc change, perhaps we should think about what they need to do *in addition* to the proc changes, to keep us feeling like rangers.  Let's face it, they're not going to reverse the decision to change the procs.Ideas:+ Significantly increase the damage on our double-shot CAs.  This is a staple of soloing and would let us still shave off a decent chunk of damage before the mob gets to us.  It would also increase overall damage - which will be needed - for groups and raids.  (And increase on our triple-shot ones wouldn't help as much, because of the long reuse timer.)+ Greatly strengthen the holding power our snares, and/or add a root component to them.  In a lot of ways, we're more like mages than scouts.  We rely on having distance from our foes.  (Even more than mages, in that we have a minimum range for all of our combat arts.)  If we can't kill enemies quickly, and we can't kite, and we can't fight up close, then we need a way to keep the enemies away from us.  (Another option might be to give versions of Trap to all levels, and greatly reduce the reuse timer.)<div></div>

[Sokolov]

<div></div><span>Awesome graphs, OP.  If everything else remains equal and the proc damage is reduced by more than 50%, I can see that there is going to issues with Ranger DPS.<blockquote><hr>ChaosUndivided wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr>klepp wrote:<div></div>my biggest issue is probably the same issue others have... damage from procs equations aside... all technicalities aside... simply put... If we have to "buy" our dps we should be at the top.  If we dont use poison we're far from the top so until they either A) make other classes buy dps or B) put us on top when using poisons....  Might as well re roll a mage yeash.   Nah scratch that.. we buff runspeed!! ubah!<hr></blockquote><p>Wrong, Sorceror's get Less armour, and More utility to be equal DPS,</p><p> We get more Armour, slightly less utility, Positional Restrictions and Pay For our DPS.</p><p>It's a fair trade off.</p><hr></blockquote>Rangers have the added benefit of having a lot more potential for extra damage due to outside influences than casters do.  After a lengthy discussion a few weeks ago, I think many people decides that this was one of the major factors causing the DPS issue.  Even tho Casters get more utility from a helping others in the group prespective, how much those buffs help themselves is not as evident.  On the other hand, altho Rangers do not get the same group utility, they benefit from utility more.  So if "Utility giving" is matched with "Utility receiving" then Casters are still behind.</span><div></div><p>Message Edited by Sokolov on <span class="date_text">02-18-2006</span><span class="time_text">07:16 PM</span></p>

[leafnin]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Sirlutt wrote:(1140225919)[Fri Feb 17 20:25:19 2006] YOUR Quick Shot hits a flame tornado for 338 points of piercing damage.(1140225919)[Fri Feb 17 20:25:19 2006] YOUR declining periodic poison hits a flame tornado for 440 points of poison damage.(1140225919)[Fri Feb 17 20:25:19 2006] YOUR declining periodic poison hits a flame tornado for 72 points of poison damage.(1140225919)[Fri Feb 17 20:25:19 2006] YOUR Divine Strike hits a flame tornado for 106 points of divine damage.(1140225919)[Fri Feb 17 20:25:19 2006] A flame tornado is struck with a holy weapon!(1140225919)[Fri Feb 17 20:25:19 2006] Lafear hits a flame tornado for 56 points of crushing damage.(1140225919)[Fri Feb 17 20:25:19 2006] a flame tornado tries to crush Torum, but Torum blocks.(1140225920)[Fri Feb 17 20:25:20 2006] YOU hit a flame tornado for 613 points of piercing damage.(1140225920)[Fri Feb 17 20:25:20 2006] Lafear's The Pain of Confession smites a flame tornado draining 137 points of power.(1140225920)[Fri Feb 17 20:25:20 2006] A flame tornado is struck by vengeance.(1140225920)[Fri Feb 17 20:25:20 2006] Lafear is struck by vengeance.(1140225920)[Fri Feb 17 20:25:20 2006] YOUR Quick Shot hits a flame tornado for 338 points of piercing damage.(1140225920)[Fri Feb 17 20:25:20 2006] YOUR Gleaming Strike hits a flame tornado for 199 points of magic damage.(1140225920)[Fri Feb 17 20:25:20 2006] YOUR declining periodic poison hits a flame tornado for 440 points of poison damage.(1140225920)[Fri Feb 17 20:25:20 2006] YOUR declining periodic poison hits a flame tornado for 72 points of poison damage.thats the problem right there.. quick Shot procs, then at one point procs both a gleaming strike and a poison.. that shouldnt happen.. they need to fix our offensive proc to NOT proc anything else... thats all.. no nerfing procs across the board, no changing how procs work.. just stop procs from procing procs (LOL)..<div></div><hr></blockquote><p>Thank You!  I'm glad I'm not the only one who sees that our offensive stance was one of the factors that unbalanced the original proc formula. <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p> </p><p>Falcon</p><p>60 Ranger</p><p>Kithicor</p>

[Sirlutt]

I have more data i will post tomorrow.  I tested in table tonight, did a bit of it with offensive stance on, and then a bit with it off and then tables with it on again.Drop was about 250-300DPS and it didnt proc poison anyware near as much .. its definately the 30% proc rate for our stance (which is about 70% with a 7.0 weapon) .. and its proccing poison aswell..my suggestion to the devs would be continue to make it only proc once off each CA per target.  Make it so that if its a 3 hit CA, and it doesnt proc on the first hit it can still proc on the 2nd or 3rd .. just make it once per CA.  Also be sure to make it once per target, if we use an AE CA we should still be able to proc once per target hit.Take out offensive stance and make 2 changes to it, remove the ability for it to proc further procs when it fires, and lower the % chance to about 15%.Those are far better alternatives than what your proposing now, and they are know effects and measurable.  what your about to do touches many many areas and WILL break a great deal of things.  It doesnt need to be a game wide nerf if its our damage that is the issue.  I beg you to reconsider the changes your making, not for us but for the other classes who dont deserve to be hit with the nerf bat just because you've made a mistake in how you have handled some aspects of our damage.Please make a few small changes to our offensive stance and retest.<div></div>

[Fennir]

The proc change really isn't a proposal.  It's gonna come whether we like it or not.The problem is that some see the change as if they're doing it just to cut rangers down.   They're not.  We need to move on from debating the proc change itself, and the whole ranger vs. caster argument, if we're going to get anywhere with the devs.<div></div>

[Tevilspek]

<div></div><div></div><blockquote><hr>Fennir wrote:The proc change really isn't a proposal.  It's gonna come whether we like it or not.The problem is that some see the change as if they're doing it just to cut rangers down.   They're not.  We need to move on from debating the proc change itself, and the whole ranger vs. caster argument, if we're going to get anywhere with the devs.<div></div><hr></blockquote><p>You are right of course.I went into the beta today, and after a half hour of trying to solo I finally got a group, albeit no healer so it was slow going.We fought yellow and orange (to me) groups of ^s etc, but I was still hitting a good %.First the graph again from Live, then the graph from KoS Beta.The Live data is from about 1.5 hours, the Beta data from about 40 mins.Total damage from Live 772,888, from Beta 83,896.We were fighting some orange mobs, and we probably hunting at 3/4 the speed of Live in SC, but I don't think that makes up the 9+:1 ratio.What I DO really like about the Beta graph, however, is the MUCH more balanced %s. This in itself shows that the proc change is definitely not baseless, and that it will have a much more stabilising effect.I have a feeling we're just going to need some serious tweaking to get us up in total damage once again though.And my fear, going on SoE's track record, that it'll be two or three LUs before the changes are even implemented. Time will tell of course.Anyways, there are lots of variables here, so it's just more data:Live-<img src="http://members.iinet.net.au/[email protected]/EQ2/Screens/dpsparse1.jpg"></p><p>Beta-<img src="http://members.iinet.net.au/[email protected]/EQ2/Screens/dpsparse4.jpg"></p><p>[Edit]Ok, so we're probably getting near had enough of graphs, but the straight facts and %s are far better than wild assumptions (especially by other classes).So this is the Ranger who was in the group in KoS Beta with us.He was a level 60 buffbotted Ranger (mine was a copied version of the Live one). He has a bunch of Fabled gear, and the mobs would have been white and blue to him.He was with us the whole hunt, 40 minutes of fighting or so.His stats:<img src="http://members.iinet.net.au/[email protected]/EQ2/Screens/dpsparse5.jpg">Again, a LOT better dispersion rate for the %s in my opinion. DPS waaay down though.More food for the brain, and the Devs who I hope are taking our concerns very seriously...</p><p>Message Edited by Tevilspek on <span class="date_text">02-19-2006</span><span class="time_text">01:19 PM</span></p>

[Fennir]

I just took the amount of time you spent in combat and did simple math to even the numbers.Based on those two graphs, the proc change is possibly a 66% reduction in DPS potential.  I assume you were using similar playstyles/poisons.Most likely it's less than that, but as others have stated, just because we double other classes in certain situations on live doesn't mean a 50% overall DPS reduction is the answer to the balance issue.  A reduction by that amount will most likely kill us until our CAs are brought up to par.<div></div>

[Tevilspek]

<div></div><div></div><blockquote><hr>Fennir wrote:I assume you were using similar playstyles/poisons.<hr></blockquote>Yeah, just rebuffed, applied same poisons, and starting fighting just like Live.Edit:One thing I have noticed too, going back and playing on Live after trialing the Beta, is that the snares are nowhere near as effective.I am in SC now, I Cull then Leg Shot a white ^^ and it literally crawls towards me.On Beta, I would Cull and Leg Shot a blue solo mob and it'd pretty much jog to me as oppose to run. They most definitely were not crawling at the same pace as Live.Anyone else on KoS Beta noticed this? From memory the skills still say the same 'slows by %' on Beta, yet are nowhere near as effective.<p>Message Edited by Tevilspek on <span class="date_text">02-19-2006</span><span class="time_text">03:23 PM</span></p>

[Spite]

<div></div><p>I have noticed our slowing shot don't seem to be effective on beta.</p><p>I wanted to do some effective testing last weekend but EverLag would have ascewed the results.</p><p> </p><p> </p>

[Crychtonn]

<div></div><p>If snares are indeed broken on beta and that gets pushed into live rangers will have zero solo play ability.</p><p> </p>

[Skratttt]

<div>You know where Rangers need a lot of boosting?? Bow auto atack.....From my last knowledge bow does not bennefit from haste OR Dps + buffs (thats the saving grace of the assassin class we have a respectable auto atack, followed by spikey dmg output)</div><div> </div><div>Then CA's need to be comparable to the dmg per power/time that our assassin CA's have...plain and simple...</div><div> </div><div> </div>

[Bayler_x]

<span><blockquote><hr>Skratttt wrote:<div>You know where Rangers need a lot of boosting?? Bow auto atack.....From my last knowledge bow does not bennefit from haste OR Dps + buffs (thats the saving grace of the assassin class we have a respectable auto atack, followed by spikey dmg output)</div><div> </div><div>Then CA's need to be comparable to the dmg per power/time that our assassin CA's have...plain and simple...</div><div> </div><div> </div><hr></blockquote>You're mistaken.  Ranged autoattack definitely does benefit from haste.   (I don't know about the "DPS" buffs - I still have no clue what that's supposed to mean.)</span><div></div>

[Arhan]

<div>I can confirm the graphs also and pretty much everything is procs for us the only reason we dont suck <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />......  Well lets hope they fix us after they break us <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></div>

[Bithnar]

<div></div><div>If they would just throw us a bone.  Ok take away our proc damage but to compensate add about 25-35% damage increase to all ranger CA's to compentsate for the great loss of dps and then see what needs to be adjusted.</div><div> </div><div>What really pevs me off is that they change the way procs operate and knowing that it hurts some classes, with rangers being by far the greatest hurt, they still push it to the live servers and say that they will fix it later after they see what their changes effect.  I thought that was what the Beta and Test servers were for. TESTING changes, silly me.</div><div> </div><div>I am still hoping that during the middle of the night the patch faries snuck into SoE and did a little reworking the ranger's CA's and procs before the push of LU20 went live this morning.</div>

[Sokolov]

Hehe, like that should surprise anyone.Tier 6 crafting was released broken and incomplete and is STILL broken and incomplete as they push KoS.<div></div>