Where our damage comes from and how this can be improved post-LU#20

[Fennir]

(pulled from a thread from in testing feedback, figured it was better suited here)

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Blackguard wrote:If 55% of Ranger damage is based on procs, there's more that needs to be fixed.

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I made this picture just to give you a general idea of how much we rely on procs.  These are common T6 raid fights.I am using Translucent Adeste's Disruption poison.  There is no rogue debuffing resistances on this raid.These combat arts are at master 1:Archer's Frenzy (offensive proc stance, shows up as Quick Shot on the parse)Triple ArrowPrecise ShotSnaring ShotStealthy Fire (Master II)Debilitating ArrowCulling the WeakAncient Venom is my Valian Bow's 12% attack proc.  6% of my damage alone sometimes!Without my procs, I would have been outdamaged by a monk on that last one.  Naturally, I won't be completely procless after LU#20, but with normalization, it will be a great deal less.What I'm most concerned with is not the raw number at the end, but how it compares to other classes that I am supposed to be competing with in my DPS tier.I can suggest a few things to adjust to better suit the proc changes:1.  Lower the recast on our only green AOE, Storm of Arrows.  It is currently 3 minutes.  1.5 minutes would be much better.2.  Lower the recast on the Triple line.  This will no longer be proc crazy, and as such will be a lot less useful with a recast of 1m.  30 seconds would be more appropriate.3.  Increase the duration on Focus Fire or make it a super offensive stance conc buff.  It would be nice to be able to completely give up our melee ability to have a much faster autoattack in between CAs.  If not a conc-buff, maybe a 36s duration on Focus Fire instead of the current 10s.  10s is a joke.4.  LET US FINISH HEROIC OPPORTUNITIES WITH OUR BOW SHOTS.  Our main 10 (yes ten) attacks do absolutely nothing to spin HOs.  That seems wrong to me, especially considering we will need them more after LU#20.I'm sure there are other suggestions that may be better but those are the best I could come up with off the top of my head.

[pharacyde]

What they do is just make you proc on the first hit of your CA.

 

So triple arrow will only have 1 chance to proc instead of 3

Precise shot will have 1 chance to proc instead of 2

Stream of arrows, I wonder, since we have a casting time for each arrow we shoot. So it might still proc on each shot.

No more procs on quick shot, sot hat's a 30% reduce in procs for sure.

So you might get a 40% reduce in procs of your 50% proc damage (on average). That's like still 30% proc damage.

[Fennir]

That's not all they're doing, actually.They're normalizing combat arts instead of having them tied to the weapon we use (longbow), so instead of having the same chance to proc on a bow shot that I do now (very high), it will be very low.  Very, very low.  Our chance to proc will be much worse than other scouts, most likely.So the proc reduction is going to be a lot worse than 40%.  Closer to 80-90% reduction from reports on beta.

[Visay1]

 Thats great Fennir. Those pictures are easy show how much of our damage came from procs.To play my Ranger on beta now is very hard. 60^ solo mobs are a 50/50 fight now and that is with some Master1 and Legendary/Fabled equip. Everyone not playing on beta can probably not understand how hard we were hit. The 1 proc per Mulit hit CA is not the biggest problem. The problem is that the poisons now only have a proc chance of 8,3-12,5% on our Bow CAs and not the 60% we were used to.

[Tlaloc]

This is exactly the kind of analysis that needs to be done and presented post LU20, but please remember LU20 is not out yet and things could still be changed.  Great job on the graphs keep this info and logs to back it up and do similar comparisons post LU20 and present the differences.  I am very curious to see what the results will be.

Lathu

54 Assassin - Befallen

[Memory]

EXCELLENT WORK !that shows what the new dps is gonna be at if ya take procs away.

[roblinb]

Wow that's major enough to [Removed for Content] off even the casual players lol... with or without Valian's bow

[Blackin_DeMast]

Excellent graphs.  I hope we can get complrable data post LU 20 or even on the current test environment.

[Pins]

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pharacyde wrote:

What they do is just make you proc on the first hit of your CA.

 

So triple arrow will only have 1 chance to proc instead of 3

Precise shot will have 1 chance to proc instead of 2

Stream of arrows, I wonder, since we have a casting time for each arrow we shoot. So it might still proc on each shot.

No more procs on quick shot, sot hat's a 30% reduce in procs for sure.

So you might get a 40% reduce in procs of your 50% proc damage (on average). That's like still 30% proc damage.

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As of yesterday, poison was still procing off of quickshot. So that is currently not going away.Also I've noticed auto-attack damage from rangers is up a LOT. Well at least comparing T7 raids w/ a T7 fabled bow to T6 raids. Against a 1.4 million HP dragon, a ranger did 746.00dps, or 194707 damage, of which 76872(39%) was auto-attack. Also this was on monday, when procs were completely [Removed for Content]'d, and only poison was working, of which did 25428(13%) damage. So add in procs and your DPS isn't changing that much. The group the ranger was in was Someotherclass(I forgot which), Illusionist, Wizard, Warden, Defiler, Ranger. He was equipped in T6 Fabled with a helm and bracers from T7 and was using mostly T6 jewlery with some T5. Auto-attack was doing 482-2820 damage, and he was at the haste cap.Compare to his DPS on live of a similiar duration fight, that being the life and death ring, he did 763.41 DPS and totalled 193143 damage, of which posion was 33%(6386, quickshot was 22%(43010), and auto-attack was 5%(9395). So there is a huge increase of auto-attack damage that is being made up for the lose of procs as far as I can see from the parses. Keep in mind, the T7 parse was from when procs were barely working at all. So once I get some real parses from this ranger with the latest update I'll post them, and show you that the DPS you guys are doing isn't as badly diminished as everybody is freaking out thinking that it is.

[Memory]

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Pinski wrote:

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pharacyde wrote:

What they do is just make you proc on the first hit of your CA.

 

So triple arrow will only have 1 chance to proc instead of 3

Precise shot will have 1 chance to proc instead of 2

Stream of arrows, I wonder, since we have a casting time for each arrow we shoot. So it might still proc on each shot.

No more procs on quick shot, sot hat's a 30% reduce in procs for sure.

So you might get a 40% reduce in procs of your 50% proc damage (on average). That's like still 30% proc damage.

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As of yesterday, poison was still procing off of quickshot. So that is currently not going away.Also I've noticed auto-attack damage from rangers is up a LOT. Well at least comparing T7 raids w/ a T7 fabled bow to T6 raids. Against a 1.4 million HP dragon, a ranger did 746.00dps, or 194707 damage, of which 76872(39%) was auto-attack. Also this was on monday, when procs were completely [Removed for Content]'d, and only poison was working, of which did 25428(13%) damage. So add in procs and your DPS isn't changing that much. The group the ranger was in was Someotherclass(I forgot which), Illusionist, Wizard, Warden, Defiler, Ranger. He was equipped in T6 Fabled with a helm and bracers from T7 and was using mostly T6 jewlery with some T5. Auto-attack was doing 482-2820 damage, and he was at the haste cap.Compare to his DPS on live of a similiar duration fight, that being the life and death ring, he did 763.41 DPS and totalled 193143 damage, of which posion was 33%(6386, quickshot was 22%(43010), and auto-attack was 5%(9395). So there is a huge increase of auto-attack damage that is being made up for the lose of procs as far as I can see from the parses. Keep in mind, the T7 parse was from when procs were barely working at all. So once I get some real parses from this ranger with the latest update I'll post them, and show you that the DPS you guys are doing isn't as badly diminished as everybody is freaking out thinking that it is.

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sounds reasonable that they only way atm on test is to max out haste and go on autoattack because it still uses delay for procs.but those numbers only work for [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ing raids in a well attuned group.you forgot about our 350-400 dps solo and even less in heroic groups.you cant compare a raidbuffed lv 70 ranger with full masters, full t7+ legendary gear, AAs maxed out maybe too.so its pretty bad, just read the right numbers under the right conditions before posting everythings fine

[Fennir]

Yeah there are definitely going to be ways we change our attack method for sure, but that probably won't be enough to keep us in T1 DPS.  On AOE fights especially we will be very. very weak.I also don't want to have to wait for my trap to refresh for every single solo fight.  Our combat arts are definitely going to need to be looked at.

[Jayad]

Also, doing auto-attack damage requires high level arrows.  Something to keep in mind, anyways.  You can currently do most of your dps with cheap tin/iron arrows because CAs dont' require T5/T6 arrows, but that won't be the case if auto-attack is a big factor in damage.  Yes you can summon some but never enough.  In a raid, you would need rare arrows to do real auto-attack damage and they are very expensive.

 

It's good to see some hard data even if I think it's a very narrow situation view.

Message Edited by Xney on 02-16-200602:00 PM

[leafnin]

So basically we are going back to before LU 13 just in the way we need to do damage.  Max Haste and STR glad I went that way with my AA setup I have planned. 

 

Falcon

60 Ranger

Kithicor

[Bayler_x]

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leafnin wrote:

So basically we are going back to before LU 13 just in the way we need to do damage.  Max Haste and STR glad I went that way with my AA setup I have planned. 

 

Falcon

60 Ranger

Kithicor

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Before LU13, soloers were much better off than they will be now, though.  We had access to all of our combat arts on the run then, so we could kite effectively.  Now, we'll have serious solo woes.

[Jay]

Great analysis, great ideas. Thanks for posting the graphs. Shader's right, soloer's are going to get hit extremely hard if this goes in as expected - it's like the Gimpy Ranger age without kiting. Kiting was the only thing that made Gimpy Rangering manageable without basically being reduced to melee for 70% of the time.

I'm an archer. We do have a niche in this game - we are, and should continue to be, the best ranged physical DPS class out there. That's our purpose, plain and simple. Relegating us to using our bows to pull and then sit there grinding away with a pair of knives isn't really 'ranged DPS.'

We're on the right track. Forgive me for being a cheeseball and trying to keep morale up, but I can't parse and do math and make cool graphs...I'm not the sharpest crayon in the box.. but I can post a lot

[klepp]

my biggest issue is probably the same issue others have... damage from procs equations aside... all technicalities aside... simply put... If we have to "buy" our dps we should be at the top.  If we dont use poison we're far from the top so until they either A) make other classes buy dps or B) put us on top when using poisons....  Might as well re roll a mage yeash.   Nah scratch that.. we buff runspeed!! ubah!

[ChaosUndivided]

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klepp wrote:

my biggest issue is probably the same issue others have... damage from procs equations aside... all technicalities aside... simply put... If we have to "buy" our dps we should be at the top.  If we dont use poison we're far from the top so until they either A) make other classes buy dps or B) put us on top when using poisons....  Might as well re roll a mage yeash.   Nah scratch that.. we buff runspeed!! ubah!

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Wrong, Sorceror's get Less armour, and More utility to be equal DPS,

 We get more Armour, slightly less utility, Positional Restrictions and Pay For our DPS.

It's a fair trade off.

[Fennir]

Sorry klepp, but that's an issue for a different thread, and one the devs have repeatedly stated they don't believe in.  They have given us damage tiers that we should fall in, and said that sometimes we will be on top and sometimes we won't, but never guaranteed a spot anywhere except inside our tier.  That won't change.This is simply about making sure we're in our tier.

[Tes Mar'a]

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ChaosUndivided wrote:

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klepp wrote:

my biggest issue is probably the same issue others have... damage from procs equations aside... all technicalities aside... simply put... If we have to "buy" our dps we should be at the top.  If we dont use poison we're far from the top so until they either A) make other classes buy dps or B) put us on top when using poisons....  Might as well re roll a mage yeash.   Nah scratch that.. we buff runspeed!! ubah!

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Wrong, Sorceror's get Less armour, and More utility to be equal DPS,

 We get more Armour, slightly less utility, Positional Restrictions and Pay For our DPS.

It's a fair trade off.

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I don't see how you can say that the armour we gets are as good as the utility that Sorceros gets.If you are on raids that extra armour have no use. It can't save me, if the mob is on me, then I'm dead anyway.In groups, yes I can take a hit or 2 extre then the soureror, but I also have a higher AGI that helps me there. And then again, if the mob is on me, then something is wrong.

[ErikShaf]

Ugh, this is going to hurt DPS. But as of right now Rangers are super far in a long duration DPS encounter, there is no doubt about it. I don't care if the Ranger is at all Adept IIs and someone else is at 100% Masters, the ranger will be winning. So though it may hurt, it is more of a balance issue, not a nerf. Though many other classes will be feeling the sting also. But on another note...{ Personal Rant }If we are on the subject of ranting.. let me add that I hate how the good aligned Ranger of Qeynos use poisons on their enemies. Though there is no way to change that, I really wish we did some sort of damage like Fire + Ice (elemental), and Lightning (magic) that we were able to cast. Of course having a material component would be the most likely way to balance out the expenses. I personally think it would be easier to add those instead of poisons, with each proc buff having two concentration slots. 30-second recasts if switching between procs, so you can't just do it inbetween fights if you forget to change and still dominate in DPS. I don't know, I just really hate how the good aligned Ranger is using poisons. Bleh!Am I the only one who feels the same on this issue?

[ChaosUndivided]

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Tes Mar'a wrote:

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ChaosUndivided wrote:

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klepp wrote:

my biggest issue is probably the same issue others have... damage from procs equations aside... all technicalities aside... simply put... If we have to "buy" our dps we should be at the top.  If we dont use poison we're far from the top so until they either A) make other classes buy dps or B) put us on top when using poisons....  Might as well re roll a mage yeash.   Nah scratch that.. we buff runspeed!! ubah!

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Wrong, Sorceror's get Less armour, and More utility to be equal DPS,

 We get more Armour, slightly less utility, Positional Restrictions and Pay For our DPS.

It's a fair trade off.

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I don't see how you can say that the armour we gets are as good as the utility that Sorceros gets.If you are on raids that extra armour have no use. It can't save me, if the mob is on me, then I'm dead anyway.In groups, yes I can take a hit or 2 extre then the soureror, but I also have a higher AGI that helps me there. And then again, if the mob is on me, then something is wrong.

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Armour isn't there to save us in raids, it's there to help with soloing. Sorceror's get roots and stuns instead so don't need to melee the mobs, we on the other hand need to go toe to toe so get Med armour.

[Tes Mar'a]

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ChaosUndivided wrote:

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Tes Mar'a wrote:

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ChaosUndivided wrote:

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klepp wrote:

my biggest issue is probably the same issue others have... damage from procs equations aside... all technicalities aside... simply put... If we have to "buy" our dps we should be at the top.  If we dont use poison we're far from the top so until they either A) make other classes buy dps or B) put us on top when using poisons....  Might as well re roll a mage yeash.   Nah scratch that.. we buff runspeed!! ubah!

---

Wrong, Sorceror's get Less armour, and More utility to be equal DPS,

 We get more Armour, slightly less utility, Positional Restrictions and Pay For our DPS.

It's a fair trade off.

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I don't see how you can say that the armour we gets are as good as the utility that Sorceros gets.If you are on raids that extra armour have no use. It can't save me, if the mob is on me, then I'm dead anyway.In groups, yes I can take a hit or 2 extre then the soureror, but I also have a higher AGI that helps me there. And then again, if the mob is on me, then something is wrong.

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Armour isn't there to save us in raids, it's there to help with soloing. Sorceror's get roots and stuns instead so don't need to melee the mobs, we on the other hand need to go toe to toe so get Med armour.

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Ok in solo there is a trade there, but most like to play in groups, and go on raids.And this info that is given are from raids, and groups.Also the point of what you want in you group/raid.   A T1 DPS, og a T1 DPS whit utilitys.And then there is all that bout that we have to buy poison do do the damage that we do.

[The Ban]

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Tes Mar'a wrote:

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ChaosUndivided wrote:

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Tes Mar'a wrote:

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ChaosUndivided wrote:

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klepp wrote:

my biggest issue is probably the same issue others have... damage from procs equations aside... all technicalities aside... simply put... If we have to "buy" our dps we should be at the top.  If we dont use poison we're far from the top so until they either A) make other classes buy dps or B) put us on top when using poisons....  Might as well re roll a mage yeash.   Nah scratch that.. we buff runspeed!! ubah!

---

Wrong, Sorceror's get Less armour, and More utility to be equal DPS,

 We get more Armour, slightly less utility, Positional Restrictions and Pay For our DPS.

It's a fair trade off.

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I don't see how you can say that the armour we gets are as good as the utility that Sorceros gets.If you are on raids that extra armour have no use. It can't save me, if the mob is on me, then I'm dead anyway.In groups, yes I can take a hit or 2 extre then the soureror, but I also have a higher AGI that helps me there. And then again, if the mob is on me, then something is wrong.

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Armour isn't there to save us in raids, it's there to help with soloing. Sorceror's get roots and stuns instead so don't need to melee the mobs, we on the other hand need to go toe to toe so get Med armour.

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Ok in solo there is a trade there, but most like to play in groups, and go on raids.And this info that is given are from raids, and groups.Also the point of what you want in you group/raid.   A T1 DPS, og a T1 DPS whit utilitys.And then there is all that bout that we have to buy poison do do the damage that we do.

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Well that extra defense really does help in raids and groups. In raids that are yellow can that extra armor allows the Predators to survive much longer than the sorcerors and avoid death. Same with groups.

Also Rangers are much less likely to pull aggro than Wizards/Warlocks since they get a threat reducer.

[Skratttt]

As a raiding Assassin i guess the OP has never been to a PPTR raid or Gates or anything in T6......U WILL DIE if you get aggro...there is no survival

 

Orange mobs = 1 hit  death

 

Yelllow =2-3 hit death depending on equip

 

Named?? = Breathes on you and guess what....yes!! = death...and MT mad at you cause mob running arround now

 

[Visay1]

 Our Wizards and Warlocks do around 700 dps now at 60 without achievements. So I need to wait for lvl 70 get 50 AAs and a fabled bow with a damage rating of 90+ and get full haste to do the damage that they do now? Hmm. That has to change

Message Edited by Visay1 on 02-16-200611:06 PM

[coltla]

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Jay42 wrote:

I'm not the sharpest crayon in the box.. but I can post a lot

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LOL!

[SalBlu]

Fennir:

Any way that you can make a response to this thread http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=39&message.id=22001 in regards to damage potential now compared to after the change goes live?  I've been trying to compile a bit of information about how much actual DPS you're losing rather than working with all the speculation that I've seen.  I'm not totally convinced yet that this is going to be as bad as we all think it is.

[Memory]

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SalBluee wrote:

Fennir:

Any way that you can make a response to this thread http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=39&message.id=22001 in regards to damage potential now compared to after the change goes live?  I've been trying to compile a bit of information about how much actual DPS you're losing rather than working with all the speculation that I've seen.  I'm not totally convinced yet that this is going to be as bad as we all think it is.

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dont really need calculations when i parse my numbers on beta server.

[Prowler19]

I may not be an expert on high-end T6 raiding and ranger DPS relationships, but I have always thought it strange that most of my damage comes from poison procs. Flame me all you want, but I am glad they are lowering proc damage. All it means is they'll be upping the rest of our damage to compensate for this big change. In an average group, I do between 60% and 40% of the total damage my group does (provided there isn't another ranger in my group). Every class I've ever duoed with has been awe stuck when I (more often then not) kill solo mobs before they even reach me.This proc change does affect everyone. True it'll affect rangers the most, but maybe it should. Its crazy to think that we rangers are not overpowered right now. We are for sure in any typical situation right now (raiding isn't a typical situation, priests are reduced to straight healing during raids and I know that's not all my fury alt brings to the table).My point here is lets wait and see what happens when LU 20 hits the live servers. I'm not happy about having my class be less effective then it is right now, but as long as I can still compete with other T1 damage classes then I can deal with it.--Feighni Spiritarrow 56 Ranger, Unrest

[leafnin]

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Bayler_xev wrote:

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leafnin wrote:

So basically we are going back to before LU 13 just in the way we need to do damage.  Max Haste and STR glad I went that way with my AA setup I have planned. 

 

Falcon

60 Ranger

Kithicor

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Before LU13, soloers were much better off than they will be now, though.  We had access to all of our combat arts on the run then, so we could kite effectively.  Now, we'll have serious solo woes.

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Yeah I'm figuring that, but can't really comment since I'm not in Beta.  I'm just making a educated guess on raid/group damage sources.   I don't even want to think about the solo issue since I solo quite a bit.

 

Falcon

60 Ranger

Kithicor