Indirect 'nerfing' of wards

[Mattim]

Moorgard posted recently "... we are improving heavy armor to mitigate 11% more damage and light armor to mitigate 35% more damage."All of these are in a series of changes being made to make fighters more of a 'tank' than a damage dealer. Unfortunately these changes will further make the disparity between cleric, druid and shaman healing evident. Since the devs supposedly read these boards, I figured it was worth mentioning.

[BigDa]

<DIV>Oh good grief... PLEASE take mitigation into account with our wards!</DIV>

[Merrygr]

<DIV>I too noticed that and when I saw it it gave me hope. I quickly read through the rest of the patch message to read about the improvements in wards to balance this. For some unknown reason they had neglected to include it in the patch message.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Note: The above was sarcastic.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Although I don't think the change makes much of a difference by itself we seem to be getting further behind the other healers in every patch.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Chanliang]

Another thing is that druids get closer to medium armor migration (medium armor was one of the reasons I choose mystic instead of druid) and well clerics get more too... We're getting longer timer for avatar yay.<BR>

[Banditman]

<DIV>And Monks get closer to Medium armor as well.  That 35% increase is a HUGE increase for Monks.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>But hey!  We've still got Wards!  Err . . . oh yea.</DIV>

[rolan]

<DIV>any change the devs make is good for all of us dave, remeber that?</DIV>

[Spag]

<DIV>yeah for all of us that have non-mystic alts</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Edit:  My warlock just got his upgrade!  Yea!  Looks like I will be playing my Warlock more than my Mystic now.</DIV><p>Message Edited by Spagma on <span class=date_text>02-10-2005</span> <span class=time_text>11:55 AM</span>

[Coops1]

<DIV>This is definatly a bummer. I started out as a Guardian and changed to play a Mystic he is lv 30 now and I feel he is really underpowered. I now started a Wizard and am loving him, so I guess it is Wizard for the win until the Mysic gets a little lovin when it comes to wards.</DIV>

[leatia]

They most definately will have to tune Mystics in order to accomodate recent changes.The Agility nerf (less avoidance) now coupled with a future increase in armor mitigation are both large blows to Mystics as a priest/healer class. They just further widen the reach of our healing abilities.A boost to armor mitigation was unexpected. I thought they were going to compensate the agility nerf by giving avoidance classes a small perk in dodge/parry/riposte to keep avoidance constant. It seems they are going completely the anti-mystic way of just making it so when they do get hit (unwarded), they get hit for less. Ugh.

[Banditman]

<DIV>Take the equivalent specialty heal of Druids and Clerics.  Add the values together.  Divide by two.  Make that the value of the Shaman Ward.  Put it AFTER the mitigation.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Shaman = fixed.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>A "nice" gesture would be to give the Mystic informational messages on the Wards they cast on group members . . . such as . . .</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>TankTank's Spectral Ward absorbed 134 points of damage!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>CasterBoy's Wakinya's Skin of Spirits absorbed 350 points of damage!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>PaperTank's Ancestral Ward aborbed 204 points of damage!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>That surely would be nice.</DIV><p>Message Edited by Banditman on <span class=date_text>02-10-2005</span> <span class=time_text>04:32 PM</span>

[TheRealMo]

Hopefully, the impact of this increased mitigation on shaman wards will be blatantly obvious on the test server & the issue will be addressed. But I'm not holding my breath... <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Xalibur]

<DIV>i find myself rarely logging in anymore cos im [Removed for Content] about our class healing abilities and playing on 100% efficience to be able to heal in a normal group doing normal trash xp content might be a challenge, but sucks in the long run. (Maybe devs should rename shaman into Macgyver)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I want to enjoy this game. I like the quests, but i dont like being the healer. Its WORK, and NO FUN at all when you compare the healing abilites with the other classes. My GF got a cleric and well...  its an insult if you play a templar and then again your mystic.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I guess sony has no clue what the shamans role should be. It definitly cant be the group healer. It arent mastery-debuffs. Its..hmm... ask yourself...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Potentater]

<DIV>I don't believe that devs even get this far into the boards.  </DIV>

[Chanliang]

I just wondering about soloing... I can now kill most solo reds at 26 and most double arrow green ones (which are 3-4 levels lower than me) it's slow tho but helps finishing lots of quests while actually gaining xp by killing quest mobs. If wards would have migration taken into account I might be able to kill low level blue ^^ group mobs in 30min :p They would hit more often than greens and would use harder spells/specials so maybe not but ^^ group greens would be trivial. Maybe SoE is afraid of that... Dunno but we could use lil help here.

[Merrygr]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Chanliang wrote:<BR>I just wondering about soloing... I can now kill most solo reds at 26 and most double arrow green ones (which are 3-4 levels lower than me) it's slow tho but helps finishing lots of quests while actually gaining xp by killing quest mobs. If wards would have migration taken into account I might be able to kill low level blue ^^ group mobs in 30min :p They would hit more often than greens and would use harder spells/specials so maybe not but ^^ group greens would be trivial. Maybe SoE is afraid of that... Dunno but we could use lil help here.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Depending on where you are level wise this is pretty much normal. I don't know exactly what classes can or can not do this, but a change in our wards would not make any difference to us. When fighting a solo mob (including a green++ group one) like this it is rare for me to see my ward take enough damage to not run its full duration. So the ward is limited by duration, not by how much damage it can absorb. I do not think it would enable us to solo blue++ mobs any better since the problem on those (for me) is that I don't have enough power to kill them.<BR>

[Spag]

<DIV>Chan,</DIV> <DIV>   I do not think we will all of a sudden be overpowered.  I can sit and watch Clerics and Druids solo green^^ without breaking a sweat.  We just want our special heal to be on the same level as the other priests.  This will not help with blue ^^ since they both hit harder and their hit% is higher and have higher HP as well.  Merry is right you would run OOP.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Merry,</DIV> <DIV>    Mine rarely last till the timer expires, although a longer timer would be nice, as I would not have to try to sneak in my ward immediately before the tank pulls.</DIV>

[Kalam]

<DIV>Yep any increase to mitigation is an indirect nerf to the effectiveness of Wards.  The bottom line is Wards will become 11% less efficient on Heavy Armor classes and 35% less efficient on Light Armor wearers.  Hurray for Wards!  :smileyindifferent:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Mythian-Combi]

Good deal for the other healers then. Shaman are blowing other healers away in terms of effectivness. Always sucks to get the nerf, but in the intrest of game balence its still a good thing.

[DejaaVous]

<DIV><FONT face=Century>What planet are you from?</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[TheRealMo]

"Shaman are blowing other healers away in terms of effectivness."I'm speechless. I have no response for this. Perhaps this statement is true in Bizzaroworld but not in the reality where I reside.

[Spag]

<DIV>Well in effect his statement is somewhat true, as a shaman the wards work great since its before level 20.  After level 20 is when you start to see how ineffective they can be.  At that point you are a mystic or defiler, not really a shaman anymore.  Although I would not say that before level 20 we were blowing anyone out of the water, but we were able to do our job effectively.  How I long for the good ole days.</DIV>

[Spag]

<DIV>Mythian,  </DIV> <DIV>   What level are you?</DIV>

[Fel]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Mythian-Combine wrote:<BR>Shaman are blowing other healers ... <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>To join their groups?  For coin?  </P> <P> </P> <P>I'm lost<BR></P>

[Novagel]

Definitely, at the higher levels, wards are no that effective. They drop in matter of minutes, when mobs start hitting for 3000 a shot. I would like to see some armor mitigation to balance with the druids and clerics. I still love my mystic no matter what, but, please, let's do something about the wards! If you think mystics are overpowered, try playing one, especially up to the higher end areas.~VengaLevel 40 Mystic

[Mythian-Combi]

Im 50, have been for quite some time (only 9th to 50 gamewide, but still been awhile)And I don't know what you all are talking about. Every single person I play with would take a Mystic healer above any other hands down. I'm not gonna post logs and cry about how the math proves this or that. I play the game, and I can tell you that my mystic allows groups to do encounters that I've personally watched other groups wipe to repeatedly.I recomend you all play the game a bit more, play with your debuffs (you know the ones i've seen called worthless) and enjoy how much own a mystic can lay down.<p>Message Edited by Mythian-Combine on <span class=date_text>02-14-2005</span> <span class=time_text>12:59 PM</span><p>Message Edited by Mythian-Combine on <span class=date_text>02-14-2005</span> <span class=time_text>01:00 PM</span>

[Cika]

Are all of you mystics [Removed for Content]' [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] or something? Your wards work great! Maybe you should reroll a different class if you can't figure out how to use your spells to their fullest extent...

[Karla]

<DIV>I have been saying that wards are not efficient for about 3 monhts now, during that time some have agreed, some haven't, and all I can say is shaman in this game are being brought down to teh eq1 shaman level, which would be good if we got all the cool stuff shaman in eq1 got.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Basically shaman in EQ2 are debuffers, pure and simple.  We are not healers, we are not damage dealers, we debuff offensive abilities of a mob, and can heal back up if needed.......</DIV>

[Mythian-Combi]

Every 50 mystic on Mistmoore was the solo healer for thier group... I wouldn't call that back up

[Karla]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Mythian-Combine wrote:<BR>Im 50, have been for quite some time (only 9th to 50 gamewide, but still been awhile)<BR><BR>And I don't know what you all are talking about. Every single person I play with would take a Mystic healer above any other hands down. I'm not gonna post logs and cry about how the math proves this or that. I play the game, and I can tell you that my mystic allows groups to do encounters that I've personally watched other groups wipe to repeatedly.<BR><BR>I recomend you all play the game a bit more, play with your debuffs (you know the ones i've seen called worthless) and enjoy how much own a mystic can lay down. <P>Message Edited by Mythian-Combine on <SPAN class=date_text>02-14-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>12:59 PM</SPAN> <P>Message Edited by Mythian-Combine on <SPAN class=date_text>02-14-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>01:00 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> I have a 24 shaman and a 24 druid.  Anyday of the week and twice on friday my druid can out heal my shaman and add nukes. 

[Mythian-Combi]

heh, and someone was calling me out on levels. If your really upset about it, then play your druid. If you want to be a superior healer, then dont make your 915th post and go play the game instead. Level up, and I assure you mystics own closer to the end game.

[Spag]

<DIV>Mythian,</DIV> <DIV>   Maybe it gets better at 50, I don't know, I am not there.  But right now, here is some math I can provide for you:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>(Cast time for ward + recast time for ward > length of time the ward holds up) = death or /yell</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Group ward mana cost per recast time + Single target mana cost per recast time x length of fight = death or /yell</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Time taken to Group ward + time taken to Single target ward + time to debuff multiple mobs = death as wards failed 20 sec ago</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>It may just be lvls 20-25 that are like this I dont know.  I am lvl 21 and cannot be main healer in any exp group.  It may also be because lvl 20+ mobs are hitting harder.  But it is also definitely because wards are 0 AC and my debuffs get resisted 50+% of the time.    Currently for me all the equations above are true for dealing with any white or better group con mob.  Its sad, blues are tough fights for a full out group.  I ward before pull, debuff debuff, ward, 2nd attempt at debuff or two, ward heal and so on.  The only ones that seem possible are the blue group con ^^ mobs.  Less things hitting my tank, which means the wards last a bit longer, and I only have 1 mob to debuff.  I run pretty close to OOM each time.  Its pretty sad.  Once I get a second single target ward things might be looking up, as I can stack them with better mana efficiency, but our mana efficiency is still much less than that of the other healing classes, I just want equality.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Spag]

<DIV>Was not calling you out on level, simply asked what level you were.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>BTW you should never respond with, don't like it, go roll something else.  Makes you look like an [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot].  Hey just trying to help.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As for making many post, vs playing, figure it out, I would rather play than post.  I only post when I can't play.  We all can't sit in their mothers basements and play 16 hours a day, in a mad rush to make it to 50.  Some of us have our lives to attend to.</DIV>

[Mythian-Combi]

elite math skills - now go spend that effort healing people and you will see how great mystics are. My entire group made it to 50 with an average KpD over 400 so there wasn't much death going on. Thats counting numerous deaths being part of the premier raiding guild in game right now.I really don't know what to tell you, you are doing something wrong.

[Mythian-Combi]

First off, Kal already rolled something else. I didn't make that recomendation. Secondly, regardless of what the personal lives of those who beat you to 50 may be, the powergamers are often the most skilled, and certainly the most experianced gamers. If you want to know how wards work, you should look to people like Quirk. Going off the opinions of people who havent hit cap yet, much less done any real raiding is just spewing ignorance cause those people have no way to be knowledgeable about the class.<p>Message Edited by Mythian-Combine on <span class=date_text>02-14-2005</span> <span class=time_text>02:41 PM</span>

[Spag]

<DIV>There is one I have not heard in a while.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>"since I am max level and you are not, you must suck" </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Nice attitude.  And no just because you have more time to play does not make you better than me.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I must be doing something wrong, hmm what might that be?  Not hitting my buttons fast enough, should have zigged when I should have zagged.  Gimme a break this is not an FPS, its RPG.  Its all rules of the game, know the rules and you know the game.  Its all numbers.  If you ignore the numbers then I am not the one being ignorant.</DIV>

[Ze]

I have one priest of every flavor. Before 20 Wards will let you do insane things, especially when you adept 3 spectral ward. I've noticed a definate difference post 20. In fact, interestingly enough I've found Druids to be some of the best healers. BoV gets wasted a lot causing RH to take more power to keep up because it fires on every hit including the tiny ones. Wards.. My wards have been dropping fast lately. Really fast. Training and Adept 3's all seem to go pretty quick causing me to have to cast more wards and waste power. The Druid's HOT seems to be the most efficent. Require the least casting, and work really well with all types of tanks. Don't get me wrong, I love my Mystic to death. However, playing each type of healer really shows you the fighting differences of each type of heal. I clearly haven't had time to get each healer to 50, or even one healer to 50. As for my experience? I've played a healer in every game so far. Being MH is about all I'm good at, so I've really honed my healing skills. Every healer has moments where they are amazing, and a good knowledgable can make any healer shine. However in everyday play with regular players Wards are just underpowered. I'm glad someone else has done the Math for us. Having this information availible will make it easier to get us balanced with the other healers. Arguements like this will do nothing to help the Mystic class. I'm glad you have a good bunch of players with you, but please realize not every group is optimized to flow together perfectly. We shouldn't have to work that hard just to make up for the flaws in Wards.

[Aaldaaf]

<DIV>My main problem when I was healing solo as a 40s something mystic was the groups were so used to doing more faster it always put us on the edge so othen I wouldn't do unless the tank was a monk.  If the group sets the pace right then the mystic does ok, but that pace is generally better with a templar.  All that is being asked (if you  ignore some of the dramatic phrasing) is that a group with a solo mystic can play at the same pace as a group with a solo templar or druid.  Seems hard to argue with that simple idea idea.</DIV>

[Mythian-Combi]

and once again you take something I write as an insult when it is clearly not Spagma. I never said you sucked, I said you were less knowledgable. The two are completly differant. How can you claim you have as much understanding of the way wards work along with debuffs as someone who has spent 4 times the amount of time as you killing NPCs solo, in groups, and at raids?Perhaps you do suck, and thats why your so defensive about all of this, but I'm not qualified to make that call as I've never seen you play. I am however qualified to discuss the mystic class as a whole - every aspect of it. Do you really feel that you are?

[Mythian-Combi]

And Zeyr makes a good point here, and one I think many of you are overlooking. In the early 20s the ward does begin to lack a bit. The spell is blue, and goes to green as you approach the next ward spell. Its not going be affective as it was when you got it till the point where it masters. The same thing happens with all classes as thier spells become obsolite and replaced by a higher level version. Soon you'll get the upgrade and be healing better then the templer who is now dealing with under conned reactives.

[TheRealMo]

Mythian, do you have a chanter in your regular group? It's been my experience that without a good chanter to constantly feed me power, I find being the MH in a group rather inefficient. Just curious.

[Mythian-Combi]

never leveled up with an enchanter, but I've noticed during raids what a huge difference they can make.That being said if you really do better with an enchanter then without (which would be the case for every healer) the problem is not the power of wards, but the mana efficancy. I would argue that unless your going out of mana during the fight then its unimportant. With tier5 drink alone regain is insane. Add to that GEBs, a Screaming Mace, and a manastone and mana isnt an issue regardless of how much you try to waste it.While an enchanter is absolutly invaluable to a group, I dont think they can turn a backup healer into a main healer. Mearly they improve the overall efficency of the group, making everyone somewhat better, but changing nothing.<p>Message Edited by Mythian-Combine on <span class=date_text>02-14-2005</span> <span class=time_text>07:58 PM</span>

[Aaldaaf]

<DIV>If you only have one slot filled by a healer then having an enchanter or bard can make the shaman able to keep the group progressing at a pace near that of a templar.  The enchanter or bard brings enough to the group in addtion to your power that the group can be quite efficent.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The issue isn't if the mystic can heal, it's if they are the only healer can the group get experience at the same rate they would if they replace the mystic with a templar?  With a good group that is fighting to the edge of it's abilities the answer is probably not.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Every raid can use a couple of mystics so I'm not ready to give up and start over, but I wouldn't want to face 20 to 40 again they way things are now or even 40 to 50 for that matter.</DIV>

[Lyones]

Mythian,There's no way any of us can tell if you're being truthful about being a 50 mystic... I'm not saying you're not i'm just saying that you need to realize people are taking what you're saying with a grain of salt... 1) Shaman Wards are CLEARLY weaker then Druid HoTs and Cleric Reactives (I don't hear you disputing this)2) Defilers Wards are CLEARLY bugged and broken by certain spells (you can read their forum for details)3) It may be possible that a lvl 50 Mystic is the best healer in the game. But that's ALOT of playing time in which a mystic is documentably weaker then other healers to have to put up with. If you're saying that when you were in your mid-thirties you were still a kick [Removed for Content] healer then that is in direct contradiction to the many shamans who have posted here in that lvl range.4) I have a lvl 32 Paladin that was in RE tonight. Teamed with lvl 33 defiler and lvl 33 warlock we were doing mobs at front of zone. It was more difficult then when I'd been there with a 33 Templar and 32 Illusionist (and note the Illusionist was badly sub par because we were slowly pulling single mobs). 5) There is some evidence to indicate that a ward can actually be detrimental when the mob hits for large chunks of discrete damage (I.E. the blowthrough damage is large and comes through unmitigated). I have not seen this theory disproven conclusively and believe that it is at least possible.6) You espouse the value of debuffs. It has been noted here many times that debuff resists can approach 50-60%. If this changes at the end game then I would suggest to you that there is an imbalance with the end game and that those mobs will have their resistances tweaked to bring them more in line with lower lvl stuff7) Finally, there is a possibility that you are a fantastic end game healer because end game mobs are not fully balanced yet. I know for a fact that there is a great disparity in difficulty of some raid mobs (lvl 42^^^ unkillable by all but the most powerful group while a lvl 45^^^ is defeatable by people in their low 40s). Perhaps the power scale of mobs is not as exponential as the power scale of the players. If that is the case then your lvl 50 experience is actually detrimental to you and might change in the next couple months.

[Gura]

<DIV>Oh, shamans (Mystics I know about personally, I play a level 48 Mystic) can be main healers for a group in the high 40s.  I've done it many times:  Permafrost, Lavastorm, CT, the classic areas people go to for experience or minor quests.  I can still keep my group alive most of the time.  But my power efficiency is still not good with wards.  What I have been noticing lately is that AC on the tank does matter for me to keep him healthy.  Wards last all of a couple seconds at most for whoever I am casting them on.  So lately I just watch the tank for a few minutes to see how he takes damage.  The case lately (especially in Perma) is that the tank of the group takes so little damage from the enemies and they are brought down so quickly... that I find my wards to not be as effective as my instant heals.  Superior DPS compensates for low healing.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This new change to Agility I have not really noticed.  My wards have always seemed weak to me, because I see them take a great deal more damage than they are supposed to.  They don't, honestly, seem to be any more efficient to me than than the instant heals.  I still use them, I am still forced to use them in many cases to keep my group alive and healthy.  But they are weak, they are buggy, and in some cases they are even broken.  Wards aren't the only spells we have that are buggy/broken either, not to mention the horrid scaling of spells in power from upgrades.  They did not do a good job testing these things in beta at all... they left the testing to us it seems.  I still enjoy playing my mystic, even if I don't really enjoy seeing my wards so messed up.  (Taking double or more damage, not blocking Combat Arts, not blocking certain spells, and not even blocking all normal melee hits.)  I hit for anywhere between 25-65 damage in melee combat.  When I am attacking a monster with a ward on it.. guess how much I hit for?  Yesss... that's right... 25-65 damage.  Perhaps we should drop a line in the melee forums and ask them if their combat arts hit through mob wards... might be interesting to find out.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>On a side note, the people who post on these forums who are doing nothing but inciting flames aren't really proving their opinions to me.  If you have a different opinion about how efficient we are at healing, why don't you explain it?  Instead of trying to invalidate our concerns by calling everyone fools or treating people like idiots because they aren't the same level as you are.  The game is not 100% level 40-50 you know.  You're entitled to your opinion, but don't be surprised that you will have to defend it if you post something that is against the popular opinion.</DIV>

[Mythian-Combi]

Great post Lyonesse I'll try to explain these points more clearly.1) As far as our wards being weak - Yes they are, absolutly they are the weakest form of actual healing amoung the three types of healing classes. This is the way it has to be, can you imagine giving the best (or even the middle range) heals to the class with the most powerful debuffs? The fact is Mystics don't need the best heals, and yet are still the best healing class.2) Defilers can lick my balls - Freeport sucks ~ (Please see the humor of this, I've yet to outright disrespect anyone here unprovoked). If they have bugs with thier wards I'm sure sony will fix them, just as sony has slowly been fixing everyones broken spells. Thats not really an issue of balence.3) It's been awhile since I was mid-thirtys. What I am saying is end game (pretty much when you get the final debuff line - Howling/Dreadful/Chimerik), mystics are incredible. In many games, similer classes take turns being tops at what they do along the path to cap. Spell levels, types of fights, and even player skill all contribute to the way people veiw a class at any given point in the game. These levels may be the mystic down time. I already commented that the levels approaching the next ward can be difficult, and mid to high 30s is amoung that range. My response to this though is that people are going to spend alot more time at cap, then at reaching it. I'll take the class who dominates the end game myself.4) Alot of people bring up individual experinces like this one. The fact is none of these can be releated because they arnt controled experiments. That illusionist even if doing nothing but breeze and haste adds a hell of alot more to the efficency of the group then that warlock. Now if he was even mediocre he was attack debuffing in addition. Everyone has good groups, and we all have bad ones. When I joined a group leveling up my mystic made it a good one.5) Check out quirks post - Something about the state of real mystic encounters. Wards dominate the raid game right now. I would actually argue the opposite here in that wards are at thier weakest when the mob hits for small amounts and the ward times out (omg yes my wards time out ALL the time). The problem here is essentually wasted mana on a ward that did nothing cause the mob was so heavily debuffed that it couldnt manage to hit even a ZERO AC person for the amount lv41 ward.6) I have no clue what those are fighting that are claiming 50 - 60 % resist rates, but I never got rates that high. I imigine this number is inflated becuase people are frustrated, or they are fighting mobs far out of thier tier. Just as a note though, even on red mobs I have never had resist rates this bad on any mob I can cast on - and if your fighting something that gives the too powerful msg the encounter is meant to be really [FAAR-NERFED!]ing tough to you, and good job sony for not letting you trivialize it with slow.7) Perhaps, there is no way to know. I sincerly hope this is the case though. The toughest times i've had in this game (minus Darathar fight) were in runnyeye after the big mob buff like 2 months ago. It was also the most fun I had leveling to 50. The endless grind in permafrost was stupid easy, and as such uninteresting. Soluseks eye (which is now an option for leveling 45 - 50) is even easier then Permafrost. The point here though is that even thought the mobs may be too weak, Mystics still shine as superior healers. In perma toss howling on incoming, and you wont have to cast anything else the remainder of the fight, where as a templer will need to maintain a reactive.Again, good post. Outlines the concerns of mid-range mystic quite well. Maybe a dev will pop by here and do some testing at that range, but I really hope they dont mess with the class overall. Wards are fine, giving them AC mitigation would overpower us to the point the now easy mobs would become trivial, and the game would get boring for everyone. Debuffs are fine, it would be nice to see them ramp up as you increased the spell from app to adept, but that along with all other bugs will be dealt with in time. Please don't get my mystic changed to a boring pure healing class - I'd have played a templer if I wanted to be a button masher.

[Lyones]

Just wanted to confirm that Mythian is indeed a 50th lvl mystic on mistmoore... spoke to him just now on Mistmoore... I don't see how putting wards after AC mitigation is so horrible (at least based on the numbers given for the first two tiers of wards)... if the high lvl wards are so powerful maybe its because they're too powerful (maybe the hps on them are wacky) and they should be toned down and placed after mitigation as well (so that there net affect is to change little)... On the other hand if Sony is trying to promote a brawler+shaman = warrior+cleric mentality then by all means just leave it the way it is, pre-mitigation... bump the hps some and then we can worry endlessly about group makeup or [FAAR-NERFED!] and complain because there aren't enough brawlers to group with...Like many others I am troubled if our debuffs are supposed to be the "other half" of the coin. A druid/cleric never has to worry about his heal getting resisted. A druid/cleric, for the most part, gets to focus on one person (the tank). If the debuffs are truly an integral part of our healing then we are ONLY balanced when fighting single mobs without too much resistance. I'm troubled by the fact that either a) slow is crucial to raid mobs or b) fights can be survived without slow. In the first case, the game would appear to be unbalanced if a single resist is going to cause my group to wipe and any raid is doomed without one class out of 24 (isn't that what they were trying to avoid in?). In the second case, why wouldn't a group rather have a templar whom they know is going to land their spells and not get resisted. It seems that if the debuffs are so mission critical for shamans then they should be group aoe and unresistableAs for the resist issue... the RNG can be so fickle that it sometimes feels pretty bad... I know that my Paladin and Warlock typically see resist rates at about 1/10 on blue and even con mobs (was fighting a bunch today to test some things) and that number rises to approximately 1/7 against yellows. When fighting orange^^ mobs it "feels" much higher which is why i didn't not question the 50% claims (lord knows it feels that high with my warlock but i don't have any logs to check). I guess it comes down to this, either wards should roughly equal HoTs and Reactives or wards + debuffs should roughly equal HoTs and Reactives... if (as you seem to be claiming) Ward + Debuff > HoTs then I submit to you that that makes shaman's the most random of classes... to have the ease of a fight (or at least the first 30 seconds of it) decided by a resist (and remember this must be a single mob fight... multiple mobs are much tougher to debuff properly). And we still haven't even discussed the DoT issue...Finally, I'm curious about the end game in one aspect. Through the vast majority of the game (at least through lvl 36 mobs that I have logged) it is pretty clear that mobs do roughly 1/3 of their damage in the form of "regular" attacks and the rest in the form of special attacks... Slow appears by all testing to only reduce the speed of the swing for the "regular" attacks... Assuming a 15% slow then you're only reducing damage by roughly 5%. Other debuffs may reduce by additional amounts. So are the high lvl encounters not like that? Do they do a higher percentage of their damage through regular attacks that are affected by slow? Are the highest tier wards more even with druid and cleric heals? what makes up the difference?<p>Message Edited by Lyonesse on <span class=date_text>02-15-2005</span> <span class=time_text>10:55 AM</span>

[Mythian-Combi]

The problem with putting mitigation on wards is that it makes the ward as viable a heal as the other two types of priests. We would no longer need to rely on debuffs if we had such a heal. Now I understand everyone here thinks counting on debuffs is unfair as they can be resisted and such, but what Im trying to get across is that its worth it. Yes, you take a resist rarly however when you dont your debuff + ward is far better then vitae, or regen.Taking away shaman reliance on debuffs is overpowering the class beyond belief.

[Banditman]

<DIV>I would love to see explained how taking away 8 to 12 percent of mobs overall DPS makes us a superior healer.  I don't get that at all.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Wards should not have any different rules than other heals.  It's that simple.  Wards already have a smaller raw value than any other heals, AND they go in front of mitigation, which on a Guardian can currently run as high as 60 percent!  This doesn't even address the upcoming patch where heavy armor is going to mitigate 11% MORE.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Imagine the reaction of the Druids and Clerics if SOE decided to put their heals in front of mitigation.  "Hey, we thought it'd be a great idea if we took all your specialty heals and reduced them to 40% of their current effectiveness.  Good luck!"</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Spag]

<DIV>Myth,</DIV> <DIV>   I think I figured out the difference.   Since you are at 50 now, it was a while ago you were in your 20s.  You mentioned you had a problem early in  your 20s as it was before you got your next level ward.  Since it was a while ago that you were there, things have changed since then.  They upped the power of the 20+ level mobs cinsiderably since you were there, along with some other things along the way.  If you had a problem then, and these mobs are much harder now, try to imagine the problem I / we are having.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>   I may not be all knowing about all mystic levels, but I am pretty much an expert about the level I am at now.  As stated previously, it is not the same now as when you went through this level range.  This means I think I, and many other people on this forum know a little bit more about how it is now for mid 20s than you do.  Sure you know how it used to be, but thats irrelevant now.  Like I said, I don't know how it is for you, I am not at level 50, things may be better, but right now they completely suck at my level.  My mystic is not a viable healer, period.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I most certainly do take offense to what you said:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>"Secondly, regardless of what the personal lives of those who beat you to 50 may be, the powergamers are often the most skilled, and certainly the most experianced gamers."</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Whether you meant to do so or not, this implies if you are not lvl 50, you are not a powergamer, and hence are not skilled.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>To be honest, I feel I am a power gamer but limited in the amount of time that I have to play.  I am also not at level 50 because I am levelling up multiple characters along with tradeskilling.  I have three characters above level 20, another that is almost there,  and have also deleted 4 more that I did not like that were in and around their mid teens.  I have played many different characters in this game and although not all the way to the end game, I feel I have a good understanding of what most of the characters have to offer.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Back to the point, wards are weak, way too weak.  This is because of 0 AC.  As was stated by the devs, any of the priest classes should be equal in doing their main task, although doing it differently.  Our wards are not equal to the other healers ways of "doing it differently"  You yourself mention that they are weak, and not mana efficient.  That is the entire problem we are discussing.  They are weak and therefore not mana efficient, ergo not equal.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Back this all up with what many other mystics of various levels are saying, and I think we have a pretty good point.  I am not looking to be better, simply equal.   If the level 50 mystic is overpowered compared to other healers, then that should be looked at as well.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Edit: Updated spelling and gramatical errors.</DIV><p>Message Edited by Spagma on <span class=date_text>02-15-2005</span> <span class=time_text>02:19 PM</span>

[Mythian-Combi]

True, mob power was increased since I was level 20, but I fail to see how this affects mystics differently then other classes. Its tougher for everyone, not just us.Also I am saying that we are equal healers (more then that imo) - We do it differently, and with more effort expended, but I will put my mystic up against any other subclass any day. Sure the wards themselves dont have the raw healing power of vitae, but it would take a horrible mystic to do nothing but ward and think they are playing the class to its potential.And spagma - Once again, I wasnt calling anyone unskilled. I said "powergamers are often the most skilled" This doesnt mean that people who arn't suck, in fact it implies nothing about them at all. Your reading what isn't there. It's a logical fallacy that often occurs on message boards. You are excused. Also to claim your a powergamer is a bit silly. Powergamers may not all be level 50, but they for sure dont waste thier time with 6 alts before they have a charecter dominating the end game. And you can get to level 20 in less then an evening played. Don't be one of those people who adds up all thier lowbs, and then compares it to running the loop in perma from 44 - 50.

[Spag]

<DIV>Myth,</DIV> <DIV>    Now I don't normally say this but I feel you deserve it:   "F" you and your "you are excused"  Don't patronize me.  Can you honestly say you were not thinking that you are a much better player while you were writing your replys?  Your writing, while you may not have intended it to do so, reflected your thought process.  Any time you set a group aside from anyone else and say they are better or smarter, implies that those are not, are not as good and not as smart. There is always someone on the down side of every comparison.  Sure some things can be taken out of context since message boards have niether body language nor tone, which is why you should be more careful how you choose your words.  If you really feel you were not putting anyone down, then fine, lets continue the discussion.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Quote:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>"We do it differently, and with more effort expended"</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>"Sure the wards themselves dont have the raw healing power of vitae"</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Case and point, glad you see our side of the arguement.  We just want equality, its all we area asking for.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Since the patch I mentioned, the mobs hit harder and have higher HP.   This means warding more often, over a longer period of time.  End result, harder to find time to get in a debuff, but also you end up running out of power before the encounter is over.  Sure it affects the other healers but they have a much larger room for error, and dont have to try to sqeeze in a debuff or two just to be somewhat affective.  This simply widens the gap a great amount at this level.  From the other posts from higher level mystics I can only go on the assumption that this will not change for a while.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I am not saying I know all, never said that.  I said I know my level and my job.  I use all my tools available to me, and weigh which ones are effective use of mana to the others.  I try to make the most efficient use of my mana while still doing what I need to do.  Problem is that I run out of mana before the fight is over when fighting grouped mobs that are equal level to me.  Where as clerics and druids do not seem to have this problem, or as much of a problem.  I have seen this first hand, and will mention it again later in this post.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I would like to see you get to level 20 in one evening.  Lets consider an evening 6 hours of straight play time, which is a large chunk of time.  Sure you might make it to lvl  15 if you purchase all the collection quest items with money from your main character, but I highly doubt you will make lvl 20 in one evening.  Its easy to exagerate, double check that you are not.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I have multiple alts because I want to see what characters I like enough to concentrate on.  This does not make me any less of a gamer.  I want to see which one I like the best then concentrate my effort there.  I believe the 20-25 mark for each is a good idea of what tools the character will have to use, and what will be expected of them.  After that it all seems to be repitition.  I like my mystic, I like the idea behind wards.  I  just want them to work right.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I realize my different level toons don't add up to a single lvl 50, I am not a [Removed for Content].  If I spent that time leveling one character instead, he would probably be low 40s where many of my rl friends are.  But again that does not mean that I know anything about levels 25-50, as I am not claiming to.  I also have friends that got to that point, got bored and quit playing, I am glad that I chose to level multiple characters as I don't want the possibility of getting bored 3 months into a game.   Do you tradeskill?  That takes a good amount of time as well.  You should not generalize powergamers to be exactly like you.  Do you do that to make yourself feel better, thinking people want to be like you.  Personally I don't want to race to level 50 with one character.  My plan is to hit level 50 with 4 characters around the same time, one of each main class.  If this makes me less of a player in your eyes so be it, I don't know who you are or care to know.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I am on these forums to learn more about each class and to discuss their faults.  I believe the wards are faulty, I discuss this normally in a civilized manor.   When you come in guns blazing and spouting things that are now irrelevant, then you are simply taking away from the conversation.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Sure the level 50 Mystic may be great, although I am doubting it, but for the time being I will look forward to it.  The reality is the low 20s, mystics are ineffective without a doubt.  Any exp group seems to require a second healer.  Where is Clerics and Druid classes don't seem to have this problem.  Now I don't just see this problem while playing my mystic, but my other classes as well.  It is harder and slower to do anything when the only healer is a mystic.  And this sir, I can safely say I am much more knowledgable on this topic than you seeing as I am right there right now with 3 characters, where as you went through there with 1 character 3 months ago before previously mentioned changes took effect.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[ChristopherK]

<DIV>You know what.. I think mystics are prefered in group because we are use to being "very very" active. Not like those Templars with their "cast an uber heal and watch tv" play style.. We Mystics are in there down and dirty beating on the mob to kill it faster.. debuffing all the encountered mobs, warding those who pull unintentional agro.. Spot healing when we have time..</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If equality means I'm gonna just watch TV while I play, I prefer to be as I am now. Im not fighting the fact their is room for improvment, I'm just saying I like being who I am. I don't know how to play a shaman any other way.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[obe]

<BLOCKQUOTE> <P> <HR> <P>Spagma wrote:</P><BR> <DIV>Now I don't normally say this but I feel you deserve it: "F" you and your "you are excused" <STRONG><U>Don't patronize me</U></STRONG>. <BR> <HR> <BR>Its easy to exagerate, double check that you are not.</DIV> <BR> <DIV>You should not generalize powergamers to be exactly like you. Do you do that to make yourself feel better, thinking people want to be like you?</DIV> <BR> <DIV>And this sir, I can safely say I am much more knowledgable on this topic than you</DIV> <DIV><BR> <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>:smileyindifferent:</DIV><p>Message Edited by obemi on <span class=date_text>02-15-2005</span> <span class=time_text>10:51 PM</span>

[Mythian-Combi]

wow, hit a nerve there eh Spagma.First off, quoting half of my statments and then passing them off as agreeing with you is poor form. You want equal heals to a templer? Im telling you thats stupid. Why would a mystic have the same healing ability, and then get the power to debuff a mob on top of it? This is seriously what you keep asking for, and it's not going to happen. Have fun crying about it if you really think its going to make a difference, but Mystics need to be weaker healers in order to balence debuffs. The game devlopers know this, and is why its not getting changed in the upcoming class balence patch.As far as getting to 20 in an evening, yes is possible. I don't waste my time with alts, but a number of people in AL have 20 plus alts leveled off collections and discovery exp done in an evening. Your multiple level 20 charecters mean nothing. If you really care yes I also have a tier5 tradeskiller, and realize it takes time, but that doesnt relate to anything in this post other then you trying to defend the fact that you are an elite powergamer. Don't waste any more time, you're not.

[Mythian-Combi]

Really well said Christopher.It does take more to play a mystic. The reward is really worth it though.

[Mattim]

Thank you Banditman for attempting to re-rail the conversation. My OP was strictly a notice that wards will now be less efficient than they were. Whether SOE realizes this or not, I don't know but think it's very important to point out. Two of three priests get an upgrade if mitigation goes live, why not Shamans too? Our wards are not far and away more efficient than the other priests, why are wards destined to be the red-headed stepchild of this update?

[Aaldaaf]

<DIV>Same people, same loop in perma, top to middle to top and over and over.  For one healer a good templar and the group does somewhat better than with a good mystic.  Even with the mystic using all the tools at hand.  Now the difference is a lot more obvious with a 42 tank compared to a 48 tank.  The damge taken by the 42 tank between wards is just so much higher that you have to chain wards hard to keep up.  Catching back up isn't something a mystic does well.  It used to be you could stick a monk in there and I could equal or out do the templar but from what I hear those days are gone.</DIV>

[Spag]

<DIV>Myth,</DIV> <DIV>  I was not misquoting you those were things you said, and they are true.  Wards are weaker, and we have to work twice as hard and spend twice the amount of mana to be equal.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I also did not say you agree with me, just that you help prove my point.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Devs said all healers are to be able to do their job equally, but in a different way.  I take this to be wards in comparison to reactives and HoTs.  Not wards + debuffs.  Reason being, the debuffs are not extra spells we get when we get the wards.  They are spells we get at different levels.  We do not get more spells than any other healer, so they are getting something in place of our debuffs.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If we are in an encounter with 4 mobs, we have to ward the MT, and proceed to debuff each mob one by one.  This chews up mana, not to mention your ward being before AC is gone pretty quickly, time to start firing off those instant heals, or go back to chain warding.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I come into this conversation with an open mind, with the willingness to be swayed by the oposition, if they present a valid point.  You do not.  Like I said, I am not at 50 so it may be well and good I don't know.    You are not at 20, yet you refuse to see it from my side.  Its like arguing with a drunk.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>No matter, enjoy your mystic.  I am giving up on trying to prove anything to you.  Good day.</DIV>

[Xalibur]

<DIV>hehe i just played with my guilds paladin</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>same lvl, he heals a bit more hp then me</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>my power cost: 107  i heal: ~350 hp RECAST: 13.0 Seconds</DIV> <DIV>paladins power cost: ~60, heals ~400hp RECAST: 5.0 Seconds</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>after i told him about my healing spell he felt asamed..</DIV> <DIV>well, i just debuffed and did dps most time, while HE healed himself cos it was just more efficient. we are a great healing class. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[EgilRon]

<P>As a Defiler, I have 1 question for the "Shaman heal by also using debuffs" crowd.  As a Defiler, I get 0 AoE debuffs.  No AoE slow, no AoE Str. reduction.  NOTHING.  If my healing ability is intricatly linked with debuffs (which I can accept), then I need some more tools to make this so.  As it currently stands, I have NOTHING to let me deal with groups of mobs (a sinlge ^^ is fine though).  And this is a problem, a problem I don't think is shared by you Mystics.</P>

[Mystiq]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> EgilRonin wrote:<BR> <P>As a Defiler, I have 1 question for the "Shaman heal by also using debuffs" crowd.  As a Defiler, I get 0 AoE debuffs.  No AoE slow, no AoE Str. reduction.  NOTHING.  If my healing ability is intricatly linked with debuffs (which I can accept), then I need some more tools to make this so.  As it currently stands, I have NOTHING to let me deal with groups of mobs (a sinlge ^^ is fine though).  And this is a problem, a problem I don't think is shared by you Mystics.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <P>I too am perplexed at the debuffs not given to Defilers, a class I figured would be crawling with group debuffs in place of whatever beneficial group spells a Mystic gets. I think the Defiler class deserves just as much looking into as Mystics do when it comes to class balance.</P> <P> </P>

[Kalam]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> EgilRonin wrote:<BR> <P>As a Defiler, I have 1 question for the "Shaman heal by also using debuffs" crowd.  As a Defiler, I get 0 AoE debuffs.  No AoE slow, no AoE Str. reduction.  NOTHING.  If my healing ability is intricatly linked with debuffs (which I can accept), then I need some more tools to make this so.  As it currently stands, I have NOTHING to let me deal with groups of mobs (a sinlge ^^ is fine though).  And this is a problem, a problem I don't think is shared by you Mystics.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>This is why I have a hard time buying the "our weaker healing ability is made up by our ability to debuff" arguement.  Inquisitors get an AoE offensive skills debuff and a single target Str debuff.  This is a class where I have yet to see an arguement saying they rely on their debuffs to be effective healers.  You'd think those debuffs would've gone to Defilers.  Oddly enough, Inquisitors get more debuff spells than either Shaman subclass.</P> <P> </P>

[Spag]

<DIV>Interesting point, I did not know this. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>One other thing to note, the group buffs we get are limited by the number of Conc slots.  Once you have enough buffs to fill your Conc slots, any additional debuff decreases the value of previous ones.  This means that you cannot use the arguement of how our buffs balance us either, since I am already not able to use 2 or 3 of them due to lack of Conc slots, and I am only in my early 20s in level.</DIV>

[BigDa]

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Mythian-Combine wrote:<BR>...the powergamers are often the most skilled, and certainly the most experianced gamers. If you want to know how wards work, you should look to people like Quirk. Going off the opinions of people who havent hit cap yet, much less done any real raiding is just spewing ignorance cause those people have no way to be knowledgeable about the class. <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>I don't wish to be confrontational, I really don't, but I'm getting pretty fed up with, in essence, being called a worse player because I take a few months to get to 'cap' level.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Most players - the vast majority - do not look upon raiding at 50th as the peak of the game.  Personally, I look upon it as the near-<EM>end</EM> of the game.  When I reach 50 I will wheel out my character for the odd raid, but I'll be playing a different class and race as my main.  Role-playing games are about progression and discovery for most, not 'beating' the game or bragging rights or uber-loot.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Powergamers are more 'experienced'?  I dispute that.  I would estimate that I've put in more hours per level than you.  I would say that makes me <EM>more</EM> experienced.  Because I haven't tried to simple grind through levels to get to raid content I have attempted to experience as much content as possible and take my time learning my abilities.  I do try and be as efficient as possible in my play, but I don't let that get in the way of fun and role-playing.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>That's just my opinion, though.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And anyone who hasn't done any raiding is 'spewing ignorance' and have 'no way to be knowledgable about the class'?  Well, sorry, but that's as much spewing ignorance as is possible.  No one here even <EM>mentioned</EM> a problem with when they raid, so holding it up as a reason mystics are great and saying we know nothing is just redundant.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I've said it before in similar threads where high-level folks have popped up and intimated "mystics rock, you just don't know how to play them": If you are having fun with your 50th level mystic, that's great - I'm happy for you - but this game is not all about raiding - a lot of people here (including myself) came here from EQ1 because they were sick of being stuck with round after round of raids and wanted a more relaxed gaming experience.  So don't try and tell us we don't know how to play or our opinions aren't as valid as yours.  You desires from the game and the class seem utterly different to me.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Personally, if I have to wait until 50th for the frustrations to stop, then I'll give up.  It's not worth it.  I'd rather have a consistently challenging game than one that is frustrating and weird for 49 levels and then becomes easy.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>But *shrug* whatever floats your boat....</DIV>

[Aaldaaf]

<DIV>In spite of all the snippy comments, it is important to consdier the Mystics abilities at various levels of the game.  I've played characters in games where the class was great from 20 to 40 and useless in the raids.    Any adjustment needs to be done considering the full range not just one or the other.   There is one thing that will make SoE come down with a fast nerf other than getting too much cash,  that is beating their "epic" content faster or easier than they inteneded.  The agility issue wasn't a big deal until raid targets couldn't hit tanks.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Bottom line, they will not improve wards unless they are convinced that it will NOT lessen the chalange of epic encounters.   I also notice they don't mention an issue until they think they have a plan.  They still haven't blanced the damage between scouts and fighters even after they admited it was screwed up.    Mr. Moorguard isn't going to say anything about wards until the dev team decides it's an issue worth spending time on.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As to our debufs countering the weakness in our wards, after finally seeing the numbers on our spells, they don't.  They help but they do not let a group targeting orange/red stuff in runnyeye or permafrost switch from a templar to a mystic and continue to play equally as well unless you have a significant power regen (enchanter/bard) helping.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Have to remember that not only are wards continuing to get weaker compared to reactives, our stamina debuf is still disabled with no indication that it will ever work again.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>