Leaf Covered Tome of the Warden (Compiled List of Bugs and Suggestions; Updated: 26 Nov 2006)

[Touryn]

<div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><p><font color="#ff0000" size="6">I. Introduction</font></p><span></span><div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><div><p>Wardens, as they stand currently, are one of the better healers in solo and group play; however, in addition to a number of broken and underpowered marquee spells, our advantages rapidly vanish in raids, making us one of the weakest priests.  In this environment, the healing abilities of an individual priest become less significant than the buffs they provide to others, especially the main tank, an area where we are extremely weak.  Only in limited cases, such as when fighting elemental mobs, is the presence of a warden at all visible.  As the defensive druids, many feel that this should be the core of our strength, not our weakness.  While fixing various bugs and broken spells is appreciated, there will be discontent until we are brought to what we see as parity with other priests in raids.  This could be as simple as making sandstorm effective against epic mobs or increasing the size of our mitigation, health, and resist buffing.</p><p><font color="#ffcc00"><b>Note to Wardens:</b></font> Please read over the post for both content and wording.  Even if the post agrees with your hopes and desires, if the information is not clearly articulated, it will not be efficiently and accurately portrayed to the development staff.</p><font color="#ff0000" size="6"><span>II. Bugs and Gameplay Issues</span></font><ol><li><span><b>Mitigation Stacking (All Priests)</b>There are several instances when the effects of spells do not stack, including with those of non-druids. See <a href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=16&message.id=13506" target="_blank">this thread</a> for an example involving Mitigation stacking. In some cases, a smaller, lower-level spell is overwriting a more potent, high-level spell.<b><font color="#ffcc00">Priority:</font></b> High</span></li><li><span><b>Missing Spell (Greater Regrowth)</b>According to <a target="_blank" href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=16&message.id=14858">this thread</a>, there is no sage crafted upgrade to Greater Regrowth (Level 19).<font color="#ffcc00"><b>Priority:</b></font> High</span></li><li><span><b>Cure Arcane and Charm (All Priests)</b>Curing arcane from a charmed mob will break the charm, typically ending up with a dead enchanter. I can understand the difficulty in fixing this, as we also want to retain the ability to cure hostile charms placed on group members.<font color="#ffcc00"><b>Priority:</b></font> Low</span></li></ol><p><font color="#ff0000" size="6"><span>III. Weak Spells and Traits</span></font></p><ol><li><span><b>Tunare's Watch</b>The health provided by this spell is generally less than that being dealt by the mobs hitting the target.  This makes it unable to save anyone is a situation other than from an errant hit.</span><span><font color="#ffcc00"><b>Suggestion:</b></font> Move more of the regen into the initial heal.<font color="#ffcc00"><b>Priority:</b></font> Medium</span></li><li><b>Protecting Grove</b>This spell does not scale as we level, significantly losing utility in higher levels.  As an additional concern, many casters and ranged DPS find the large tree obstructing their vision and creating difficulties, a case were flavor has introduced real usability problems.<font color="#ffcc00"><b>Suggestion:</b></font> Have the tree scale with level like most dumbfire pets.  Make the tree smaller to be less intrusive.<font color="#ffcc00"><b>Priority:</b></font> Medium</li></ol><font color="#ff0000" size="6"><span>IV. State of the Class</span></font><b></b><ol><li><b>Soloing</b><font color="#ffcc00"><b>Status:</b></font><b> </b><b><font color="#33cc00">Good</font></b>The combination of good heals, nukes, and roots, Wardens prove to be an effective soloer.  While Furies and other priests may be better at solo groups and other xp targets, Wardens are significantly better at taking down hard targets.</li><li><b>Duoing/Small Groups<font color="#ffcc00">Status:</font> <font color="#33cc00">Good</font></b>This environment is generally a hybrid of the solo and xp group environments.  As this leverages our strengths in both areas, we are effective in this environment.</li><li><b>Full Group (Easy Content/XP)</b><b><font color="#ffcc00">Status:</font> <font color="#33cc00">Good</font></b>In these environments, the need for buffs and heals is small, meaning priests have a considerable portion of their time available for other tasks.</li><li><b>Full Group (Difficult Content)<font color="#ffcc00">Status:</font> </b><b><font color="#33cc00">Good</font></b>(I haven't done much of this since EoF release, so I'm just going to call it good to match everything else until I have reason to do otherwise.)</li><li><b>Raiding<font color="#ffcc00">Status:</font> </b><b><font color="#33cc00">Good</font></b>The introduction of the cure AAs in EoF provided a noticable jump in Warden raid desirability.</li><li><b>Player versus Player</b><font color="#ffcc00"><b>Status:</b></font><b> </b><b><font color="#33cc00">Good</font></b>(Note: I am not personally experienced with PvP)  The general concensus is that our performance in PvP generally follows the basic trend described above in PvE, representing generally above average performance and desirability when compared to all classes.</li></ol><font color="#ff0000" size="6"></font><font color="#ff0000" size="6"><span>VI. Visual Impairments</span></font><span></span><ol><li><b>Spell Casting Animations</b><a href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=16&message.id=12616" target="_blank">Many are in mourning</a> over the passing of the druid casting animations from the pre-LU13 days and would like to see them returned.<font color="#ffcc00"><b>Priority:</b></font> Low (Aesthetics)</li><li><b>Tier 7 Class Hat</b>Many people feel the class hat is rather inappropriate for Wardens, if not outright ugly.  See <a href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=16&message.id=13702" target="_blank">this thread</a> for details.<font color="#ffcc00"><b>Priority:</b></font> Low (Aesthetics)</li><li><b>Nature's Ally Animations</b>Some people are taking issue with both the red line effect drawn on the target as well as the casting animation itself.  See <a href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=16&message.id=14287" target="_blank">this thread</a> for details.<font color="#ffcc00"><b>Priority:</b></font> Low (Aesthetics)</li></ol><p>This post was inspired in large part by '<a href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=13&message.id=15176" target="_blank">Holy Books of Templar</a>'.  Wardens, please offer your feedback, criticism, and recommendations.</p></div><p><font size="3">Revision History:</font><font size="2"></font><font size="2">[27 Nov 2006] Clearing out stuff taken care of by EoF.[17 July 2006] Added itemization.  Added Sandstorm/Duststorm to specific spell issues.  Added PvP dumbfire issues.  Added PvP to status section.  Added spell casting animation item.  Revisions to buffing section.[17 June 2006] Update to reflect changes with the most recent adventure pack.</font><font size="2">[23 April 2006] Added a top-level section about buffs.  Revision to other sections to reference it.[16 April 2006] Added link to Rappy's HP buff thread.  Added link to Rappy's root debuff thread.  Further qualified mana regen statement.[15 April 2006] Striking evac: it has been changed.  Rewording group and raid messages.  The devs are discussing addressing priest soloing, so I added a reminder that increasing priest DPS does nothing to help our shortcomings.  Added greater regrowth to bugs.[11 April 2006] Revision to text of the Raid Section.  Removed roots and sandstorm from broken spells.  Just because it isn't useful on raids doesn't necessarily mean its broken.[6 April 2006] Removal of corrected bugs. Merging of 'What Works' and 'Shortcomings'.  Revision to Tranquility description.  Revision to AAs and drop in priority.[1 April 2006] Added revision to evac casting time-- Clipped older messages --</font></p><p>Message Edited by Touryn on <span class=date_text>11-27-2006</span> <span class=time_text>07:43 AM</span>

[Dragonreal]

<div></div>Nice compilation here and agree with it all.. only thing I'd add is that the cast time as well as the recast and power cost of tranquility should be reduced because shorter reacst and less power or not, the biggest hinderance to this spell is the fact that it takes so long to use it.

[Treve]

<div></div><p>omg</p><p>let's not start yet *another* compilation of warden issues...there are already a few threads that seem current and have a lot of input from many wardens</p><p>how about just reading those threads and adding your comments to them</p>

[Touryn]

<div></div><div><span><blockquote><hr>Treveur wrote:<div></div><p>let's not start yet *another* compilation of warden issues...there are already a few threads that seem current and have a lot of input from many wardens</p><p>how about just reading those threads and adding your comments to them</p><hr></blockquote>I had been watching several of them and several of the above points are based on things that are written by others in those threads.  Unfortunately, the original poster of the thread that spawned those comments have gone in and updated the original post.  To collect the actual comments would require going through the entire thread and picking it apart, something I doubt the developers would ever do to our satisfaction.  If we wish to have meaningful change, this is something that we need to do ourselves: centralization of the important points and statements in a single post with well articulated reasons behind them.  This is why people make compilations.  I too dislike redundancy, but if the central purpose of those threads, compilation, is not met, than this is not completely redundant.I had been considering a thread of this nature after I saw the first thread began to fade. I didn't commit to this course of action until someone suggested composition of a post similar to the cleric post I referenced. As I consider my writing abilities to be above average, I felt it was a task I could perform. If you can convince me that I am somehow incorrect in any of this logic, then I will happily let the thread die. It's bound to be a lot of work anyway.</span></div><p>Message Edited by Touryn on <span class="date_text">03-14-2006</span><span class="time_text">11:50 PM</span></p>

[MaldekTM]

<div></div><p>This post is a concise overview of issues currently affecting the Warden class, but it is just that: an overview. Examples and evidence are needed to qualify many of these statements. </p><p>Most importantly,there are no solutions offered. </p><p>Don't leave it up to the Developers to come up with the solutions or we'll be screwed for sure!</p>

[Golembes]

<div></div>A very well written summary of, what seems to be, the general consesus among Wardens about our shortcomings.  Hopefully we can get it stickied, keep it maintained, and get some lovin <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Treve]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Touryn wrote:<div></div><div><span><blockquote><hr>Treveur wrote:<div></div><p>let's not start yet *another* compilation of warden issues...there are already a few threads that seem current and have a lot of input from many wardens</p><p>how about just reading those threads and adding your comments to them</p><hr></blockquote>I had been watching several of them and several of the above points are based on things that are written by others in those threads.  Unfortunately, the original poster of the thread that spawned those comments have gone in and updated the original post.  To collect the actual comments would require going through the entire thread and picking it apart, something I doubt the developers would ever do to our satisfaction.  If we wish to have meaningful change, this is something that we need to do ourselves: centralization of the important points and statements in a single post with well articulated reasons behind them.  This is why people make compilations.  I too dislike redundancy, but if the central purpose of those threads, compilation, is not met, than this is not completely redundant.I had been considering a thread of this nature after I saw the first thread began to fade. I didn't commit to this course of action until someone suggested composition of a post similar to the cleric post I referenced. As I consider my writing abilities to be above average, I felt it was a task I could perform. If you can convince me that I am somehow incorrect in any of this logic, then I will happily let the thread die. It's bound to be a lot of work anyway.</span></div><p>Message Edited by Touryn on <span class="date_text">03-14-2006</span><span class="time_text">11:50 PM</span></p><hr></blockquote><p>i don't really understand your point...there is a thread about 5 below this one ("consolidated" issues) with over 80 responses from wardens...to me, it's pointless and maybe counter-productive for people to start a new thread that then becomes the "nouveau" compilation that once again splinters the issues and comments into different threads</p><p>from my own point of view, the issues are clear as presented in this forum and it takes a *very* small amount of time to get a very clear sense as to what wardens see as issues for their character...after all, we've been saying the same things over and over for a while now...i think it's a mistake to assume that the concerns are somehow invisible to the dev's</p><p>in most cases, i think we're *way* past the point of identifying the issue...we've done that to death...and i'm not sure you'll get a lot of support from the warden community to restate/re-input the same stuff we've been doing for a while now</p><p>from what i read here, wardens think they have already laid out their concerns quite clearly...what we are looking for is a response from SoE...i doubt another compliation/consolidation of the issues will trigger one</p>

[Formangenavn]

<div></div><p>If the point of this thread is to keep an updated list of "wants" from the warden comunity then this is exactly what I wanted :smileyvery-happy:</p><p>Nothing wrong with the thread we had, but it wasnt updated often, if at all, was it? If this thread will be updated every once in a while by OP then I say <font color="#66ff00">STICKY THIS POST.</font></p><p>I agree with everything here and would like to post what I already posted in the other thread. There are a few points I feel should be mentioned aswell, although this is up to OP of course :smileyhappy:</p><p><span><font size="2">"Direct heals: Make the DH part heal for more and have fewer ticks from HoT component. Keep the HoT component for class flavor, but the way HoTs work with spike damage a DH should be a DH.</font></span></p><p><span><font size="2">SOW: No bought ability/spell should be better or even as good as the vertion one of the classes has. </font></span></p><p><span><font size="2">Evac: This is, to the best of my knowledge, a spell that is supposed to save us from beeing killed. As everyone knows that is not how it works. If we are in a difficult situation we need to heal, and to stop and cast this spell for 5 sec is just not practically possible. If it's supposed to save us make evac 1 sec cast.</font></span></p><p><span><font size="2">Nature's Respite: Useless</font></span></p><p><span><font size="2">Tunare's Whatch: Useless and this hurts. An ancient spell should not be a grp version of a spell we already do not use.</font></span></p><p><span><font size="2">HG: Looking at the description, considering we are healers and how little it powerfeeds I have to belive this is meant to be used as a healingspell. Considering, as everyone knows, we can heal a LOT more when we are not using this spell and it stunns us rendering us unabel to react to anything like others taking damage, this is a useless spell in 99.9% of all situations.</font></span></p><p><span><font size="2">Tranquility: With a very short cast and recast time this can be a usefull spell, not a great spell, but usefull. I can not cast it yet, but I do not have to too see it's useless.</font></span></p><p><span><font size="2">Silver Sylph: Rooting something beside you that you do not want hitting you is a bad idea. I could move, but the mage besides me do not know I have casted this spell, so he is next in line, not the tank standing 10 meters away. Make it with a small teleport or better yet, a 3 sec stunn on mob.</font></span></p><p><span><font size="2">Protecting Groove: I find it extremely ironic that a spell that is supposed to heal aoe damag is killed by aoe damage. Right now we have a spell that is nice for extra healing on tank when no aoe is incoming. That does mean 1/6 its potential is used though. Oh, and make it scale with level plz?</font></span></p><p><span><font size="2">Sandstorm: Make it usefull vs orange con mobs and raid mobs aswell.</font></span></p><p><span><font size="2">Roots: I would like these spells to have shorter cast time. That would make them easier to use in groups. A very easy to spot grafic would be nice too so everyone could see that they should move away from rooted mob.</font></span></p><p><span><font size="2">Spike damage: With a new expantion we are running around in places we have never been before, getting adds, fighting high yellow and orange con mobs. The way HoTs work we are not that best at dealing with sudden changes in incoming damage. Either give us some kind of imunity spell or let us be the best at buffing hp. Since we want tank around 80% hp and HoTs are slow going we have the least margin of error of all the healers, yet we buff hp the least. It realy should be the otherway around. That would seriously help us with spike damage and manage tank hp so our spells effectiveness could be taken advantage of."</font></span></p>

[Rappy]

nice job mate... other posters here have provided enough extra input for a little revisionOnly thing I would add is cosmetic for the Devs - Lose of Flavor should read either Lack of Flavor or Loss of Flavor - sorry for being picky but it is highly likely this will make sticky<div></div>

[Touryn]

<div></div>I just made my first big revision. These revisions centered on the addition of Formangenoun's comments and the creation of a bright 'suggestion' field. In my prior post I rambled on about how important it is to have clearly articulated suggestions and, yet, I didn't do it. I suggest you read over the text and suggestions and make sure it matches the consensus (if one exists) of the warden community.I have been trying to follow the other three threads that share a similar name, so please message me if I missed something. For those detractors, the purpose of this post is not to replace these other threads, but to summarize them. They are a valuable resource in objectively determining and verbalizing the issues with the warden class, but unless they are summarized and made easily readable by the developers, it is all for naught. That is the purpose of this thread.<div></div>

[MysidiaDrakkenbane]

<div></div><div>Excellent post. Well thought out and I agree with you.</div>

[Feltrak]

<div>I think alot of the shortcomings that you listed should be removed. We don't need to be good at everything.</div><div> </div><div>Weak buffs / fix sandstorm - Should be same topic. Fix the usefulness of sandstorm, and our buffs will be fixed. As for sandstorm being useless in groups.... I think 4 second stun / knockdown is amazing, I had this spell up in every group at every possible moment on the grind to 70.</div><div> </div><div>Lack of Debuffs - Hmm I always use our Cold Debuff. Why do we have to get additional debuffs ?</div><div> </div><div>The level 70 upgrade of heirophantic Genesis is actually pretty good. I don't mind using this spell whenever it pops.</div><div> </div><div>Tunare's Watch? Weak? You kiddin me? 5 minute recast group DI ? I can't count the times that this has saved a group member, or not to mention the MT. We use a guardian MT and not a zerker MT, so DI's are really important. Often I will even use this one right on the pull, just in case the taunt is resisted and the mob runs for the templar, or guardian gets a triple 9k spike, etc. One of the weaknesses of Nature's Respite, our single target DI, is that we have to target the person who's getting hit. This takes longer for us to process and perform than the actual casting time of the spell. So in an emergency just throwing up the group version is alot faster.</div><div> </div><div>Tranquility - Yeah this needs to be looked at. It's useless if you're not in the MT group in a raid situation. Pretty cool for groups. Casting time needs to be dropped to the same as our other cures though. I think it'd be fixed if it were just insta cast. An insta cast heal that strips 2 of every detrimental spell (at M1) useable every minute, I like that.</div><div> </div><div>I disagree with changing evac. No evac should be faster than a scout's evac. Pop tunare's watch, then hit evac.</div><div> </div><div>Sylph line - I agree we don't have the best of the deagro's, I think the Mystic one is the best. But eh, it's still useful. I find it useful when I'm running away from something or training mobs <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></div><div> </div><div>Spike damage - It's all about how you play your warden, and the fights you're in. When a tank is prone to getting hit for more damage than you can quickly heal, you need to plan on group regen and regen being something you have up all the time. 900+ HP every 2 seconds, plus our heals. I don't think we have too much of a problem with spike damage. No, we can't heal for 1700, but if you are prepared for spike damage, you'll do fine. If you're in the MT group you can chain heal spells. On a healing parse I will be more than double the hp healed of any other healer. DH1 / DH2 / DH1 / regen / chloro / DH1 / DH2 / DH1 .... with good power regen you can hold that chain up for a few minutes at least.</div>

[Kassanthala]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Feltrak wrote:<div>I think alot of the shortcomings that you listed should be removed. We don't need to be good at everything.</div><div> </div><div>Weak buffs / fix sandstorm - Should be same topic. Fix the usefulness of sandstorm, and our buffs will be fixed. As for sandstorm being useless in groups.... I think 4 second stun / knockdown is amazing, I had this spell up in every group at every possible moment on the grind to 70.</div><div> </div><div>Lack of Debuffs - Hmm I always use our Cold Debuff. Why do we have to get additional debuffs ?</div><div> </div><div>The level 70 upgrade of heirophantic Genesis is actually pretty good. I don't mind using this spell whenever it pops.</div><div> </div><div>Tunare's Watch? Weak? You kiddin me? 5 minute recast group DI ? I can't count the times that this has saved a group member, or not to mention the MT. We use a guardian MT and not a zerker MT, so DI's are really important. Often I will even use this one right on the pull, just in case the taunt is resisted and the mob runs for the templar, or guardian gets a triple 9k spike, etc. One of the weaknesses of Nature's Respite, our single target DI, is that we have to target the person who's getting hit. This takes longer for us to process and perform than the actual casting time of the spell. So in an emergency just throwing up the group version is alot faster.</div><div> </div><div>Tranquility - Yeah this needs to be looked at. It's useless if you're not in the MT group in a raid situation. Pretty cool for groups. Casting time needs to be dropped to the same as our other cures though. I think it'd be fixed if it were just insta cast. An insta cast heal that strips 2 of every detrimental spell (at M1) useable every minute, I like that.</div><div> </div><div>I disagree with changing evac. No evac should be faster than a scout's evac. Pop tunare's watch, then hit evac.</div><div> </div><div>Sylph line - I agree we don't have the best of the deagro's, I think the Mystic one is the best. But eh, it's still useful. I find it useful when I'm running away from something or training mobs <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></div><div> </div><div>Spike damage - It's all about how you play your warden, and the fights you're in. When a tank is prone to getting hit for more damage than you can quickly heal, you need to plan on group regen and regen being something you have up all the time. 900+ HP every 2 seconds, plus our heals. I don't think we have too much of a problem with spike damage. No, we can't heal for 1700, but if you are prepared for spike damage, you'll do fine. If you're in the MT group you can chain heal spells. On a healing parse I will be more than double the hp healed of any other healer. DH1 / DH2 / DH1 / regen / chloro / DH1 / DH2 / DH1 .... with good power regen you can hold that chain up for a few minutes at least.</div><hr></blockquote><p>/completly aggree. I often solo heal groups in KoS dungeons and instances and if you are using all the spells available to you it is cake. Personally I don't see anything wrong with Wardens at all and know several people who think they are by far the best healers in a group.</p><p>Not that any of the above points are not valid, i just don't think any of them are broken to the point of being useless. Just becuase many wardens *dont* use a spell does not mean it's necessarily broken. And man... Sandstorm? kept up in a group, even one moving around in a dungeon, cuts the amount I have to heal in half, literally. Tranquility? a multiple cure and heal? even the casting time on that spell is more efficient than casting all the single cures + another heal, and it stacks, and if you look at test update notes you will see that they are going to make it raid friendly. Tunare's watch? group and single spell? um can you say 2 chances of saving someones butt?</p><p>At level 68 I have at least 1000 more power from a comparitivly equipped templar and my heals are sooo much more efficient. I've been able to handle any spike damage also. Like the above poster says, you just have to be aware of what's going on and chain those heals. With a decent mana regen class in the group I can chain heals over and over non stop and barely get my power pool down.</p><p>We are already one of the best healers around, giving in to all the stuff in the first post would possibly make us way too overpowered. And then they would end up nerfing us all to hell. Wardens are one of those classes that really define the talented player from the average player.</p>

[Touryn]

<div></div><div><span><span>I definately need to take some time to revise this list again.  Probably sort it and add priorities.  I never claimed our class was broken (read the first paragraph again).  My personal gripe is that I can never hope for the standing MT spot in a raid (my personal measure of value as a healer), something that will be addressed in reply to one of your points.<blockquote><hr>Feltrak wrote:<div>I think alot of the shortcomings that you listed should be removed. We don't need to be good at everything.</div><hr></blockquote>I'll take the easy way out and say I don't agree with all of them.  It seems to be a combination of two lists: one, a list of spells that seem to operate poorly in their intended role.  two, a list of points were we are weaker than other priests.  True, we can't be good at everything, but outside of healing, we aren't really good at anything.</span><span><blockquote><hr>Feltrak wrote:<div>Weak buffs / fix sandstorm - Should be same topic. Fix the usefulness of sandstorm, and our buffs will be fixed. As for sandstorm being useless in groups.... I think 4 second stun / knockdown is amazing, I had this spell up in every group at every possible moment on the grind to 70.</div><hr></blockquote>The real issue is sandstorm's utility when you get to end-game content.  In raids, it's practically useless.  As for seperate buff/sandstorm points, I should probably break it into seperate lists.  One is an abstract concept: our buffs when viewed as a whole is week.  The other is discrete: a specific spell, Sandstorm, is weak.As it stands, our defense against physical is pretty weak.  Yes, if sandstorm is fixed, it would resolve that problem.  However, if they would up our mitigation buff, it would also resolve that problem.  Sandstorm would still be weak on raids, but it would still be useful in groups and we would secure a reasonable position in the main tank group.</span><span><blockquote><hr>Feltrak wrote:<div> </div><div>Lack of Debuffs - Hmm I always use our Cold Debuff. Why do we have to get additional debuffs ?</div><hr></blockquote>I couldn't care less if our one and only debuff is striped; I feel it is outside the scope of a defense druid.  Only time I use it is when chaining nukes.  But, some people do care and it is a point where we are weaker than other priests.  One could argue that this balances our stronger heals, but that would still leave other issues of weakness unbalanced.</span><blockquote><hr>Feltrak wrote:<div>The level 70 upgrade of heirophantic Genesis is actually pretty good. I don't mind using this spell whenever it pops.</div><hr></blockquote>Fortunately, I haven't gotten to it, so it does give me some modivation to continue grinding.  In any case, for those not yet at level 70, HG itself is pretty worthless.<span><blockquote><hr>Feltrak wrote:<div>Tunare's Watch? Weak? You kiddin me? 5 minute recast group DI ? I can't count the times that this has saved a group member, or not to mention the MT. We use a guardian MT and not a zerker MT, so DI's are really important. Often I will even use this one right on the pull, just in case the taunt is resisted and the mob runs for the templar, or guardian gets a triple 9k spike, etc. One of the weaknesses of Nature's Respite, our single target DI, is that we have to target the person who's getting hit. This takes longer for us to process and perform than the actual casting time of the spell. So in an emergency just throwing up the group version is alot faster.</div><hr></blockquote>Congratulations.  You are one of the 2% that has ever been able to use it effectively.  Other than helping to salvage a bad pull, it requires precognition to use.  Your average warden would get far greater use out of BITF than this spell (don't interpret that as "give us BITF!&quot<img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />.  Maybe attaching a regen to the end if it doesn't rez someone would be a good compromise.</span><span><blockquote><hr>Feltrak wrote:<div>I disagree with changing evac. No evac should be faster than a scout's evac. Pop tunare's watch, then hit evac.</div><hr></blockquote>Again, the easy way out: I don't agree with it either.  I use evac primarily as a travel spell, occasionally I have successfully saved myself.  As with debuffs, I feel it is outside the scope of our class.  Others have expressed concern, so I listed it.<span><blockquote><hr>Feltrak wrote:<div>Sylph line - I agree we don't have the best of the deagro's, I think the Mystic one is the best. But eh, it's still useful. I find it useful when I'm running away from something or training mobs <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></div><hr></blockquote>I use it occasionally.  You just need to be very aware of your surroundings.  If they improve it, wonderful.  If they don't, I'm not heartbroken; it still functions as a deagro.<span><blockquote><hr>Feltrak wrote:<div>Spike damage - It's all about how you play your warden, and the fights you're in. When a tank is prone to getting hit for more damage than you can quickly heal, you need to plan on group regen and regen being something you have up all the time. 900+ HP every 2 seconds, plus our heals. I don't think we have too much of a problem with spike damage. No, we can't heal for 1700, but if you are prepared for spike damage, you'll do fine. If you're in the MT group you can chain heal spells. On a healing parse I will be more than double the hp healed of any other healer. DH1 / DH2 / DH1 / regen / chloro / DH1 / DH2 / DH1 .... with good power regen you can hold that chain up for a few minutes at least.</div><hr></blockquote>If any item on my list gave me the greatest hesitation, it would be this one.  I personally find little difficulty in handling spike damage.  Generally, if it gets past me, I probably shouldn't be solo healing it anyway.  Double other healers would be an exageration, but I would say that outside the MT group, the only healer capable of matching me on a parse is a templar or fury in the MT group, both using their group-only special heals.Any further shifts of healing from HoT to direct would probably be matched with decreases in efficiency, something nobody here wants.  I definately need to further qualify, rephrase, or even remove this point.</span></span></span></span></div>

[Rappy]

Gonna support Touryn a bit here, key quote for those considering how much they agree or disagree with the whole posted data is this -<hr width="100%" size="2"><span><span>Others have expressed concern, so I listed it.</span></span><hr width="100%" size="2">It is a consolodation of widely expressed issues rather than a consolodatoin of issues expressed by 100% of wardens 100% of the time, because as we know a post that only included those parameters would be well.. 'no text'.<span><span></span></span><div></div>

[Shadus]

<div></div>Mod, Please Sticky.Edit: Quick note on HG: It can be used effectively in raids if you are stuck with a second warden or a fury in your group.  Some of the healing spells don't stack ("this spell wouldn't have taken effect" message) using genesis and letting the other healer use standard heals provides a decent way to make sure neither person is wasting mana... you can alternate back and forth on genesis and normal healing.  Although its a kludge on the part of the player and not a real fix to the spell.  I also have found the App1/App2/App4/Adp1 versions of the spell are entirely inadaquete to use in any form.  The adept3 and Master1 versions are usable in some situations as they come to "somewhat" close (prior to level 54) to the level of healing you can provide with your normal adept3/master2 normal healing spells.  Another thing that would help genesis alot would be making it able to be used in Raids as well as groups... there have been times I could have used HG on MT but couldn't because I wasn't in the MT group.<div></div><p>Message Edited by Shadus on <span class="date_text">03-16-2006</span><span class="time_text">06:49 AM</span></p>

[heel]

<div></div><p>It is a very well written analysis of the state we wardens are in, with great input on how these may be changed to adequately assume proper definition of each skill. How these skills are, and how they should be used.</p><p>I have always thought warden class is considerably more difficult to play than other healer classes, due to the nature of our pure regenerative healing. Prediction, initiatives, timing mean literally everything in warden's role. Higher lvl damage spike still feels a little too tight to handle, but as others have mentioned, is manageable, doable. However it can feel like pulling teeth compared to what other healer classes can do with less tension. We sure are meant to be industrious spammer healer type that bestow great joy to play to some personalities, but game starts to feel strenuous when your favorite character has to do double amount of work to equal the abilities of other healers. And yes..we do fall like leather-clad druids..very quickly. All this regenerative quality makes us superb healers, but not sure enough to come to a definition. Just plenty of heals, but a great portion of it leaks through and wastes away. Mana is drained far faster than other healers and we do not have any more resources than other healers to get them back in our pool. Most of our signature spells are even more draining. I'll share my thoughts as to skills mentioned by our poster : (even though these are mentioned multiple times by others on different threads)</p><p>1. Tranquility - could use less power consumption. But more importantly, too long to cast. Otherwise, when done in timely manner, this is far more useful than just being a situational spell. I don't know about you, but my server has way too many healers that just do not cure at all unless it's raids..I am very fast when it comes to curing ('cuz I'm cheap by nature), but finding multiple trauma/debuff by KoS mobs are just too common, and most always come in package. I know when I do not cure those ill effects, I'll have to cast 1-2 more spells to get there..but by the time I cure them, tank would be dead. This looks to be a skill that's meant to be used in those times..But the number of ticks in casting of this spell states otherwise.</p><p>2. Heirophantic Genesis - is not returning enough mana to target. Need more power return to make this more useful than just slavedriving MT in groups or feeding them just barely enough for taunting. I personally like this spell because it's a great utility, however higher lvl mob mana drain debuffs are far powerful than before..need equally adequate power regain by target. Stun factor is understandable. Most healer classes have certain caster-stunning / heal abillities.</p><p>3. Protecting Grove - should be scaled to lvl of the caster. Tree size reduced, AE factor taken out, then would be a proper signature spell. Although I haven't seen it being affected by AE lately in group / raid situation.</p><p>4. Sandstorm - feels less and less useful. It's difficult to judge how often it stifles mobs now. Since it can't affect epics (which are fair enough, imo) more mitigation should be offered. Wardens are (as I understand) less desired in raids than..furies, or other healers. Importance of buffs / debuffs can't be stated enough in raids. Gears are not necessarily better in mitigation with T7 and with very selective choices of resist gears, at least our mit buff should stack with other classes. And I'd feel better if sandstom offers at least more numbers on mit as I go into high lvl epic zones. Then there, lies that something else I can offer in my bag of just plain healage.</p><p>Rest skills mentioned in original post, I personally care less. Tunare's Watch line spells tend to depend on how a warden is played. Overall we heal plenty, even though they are slow in coming..yet the question of how these seemingly abundant amount of healage actually channel through should be argued and and debated publicly like this. More often is better. Power consumption issue in warden, in my opinion has become the critical factor in warden's career. Since mobs and our groupmates have grown a chunk bit, with us remaining at the height of our lvl 60-cap effectiveness. In order to get one job done, I see myself double working at double costs. If the above mentioned skills developed better, I'd surely feel we're heading into the right direction.    </p><p> </p><p> </p>

[Treve]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Kassanthala wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr>Feltrak wrote:<div>I think alot of the shortcomings that you listed should be removed. We don't need to be good at everything.</div><div> </div><div>Weak buffs / fix sandstorm - Should be same topic. Fix the usefulness of sandstorm, and our buffs will be fixed. As for sandstorm being useless in groups.... I think 4 second stun / knockdown is amazing, I had this spell up in every group at every possible moment on the grind to 70.</div><div> </div><div>Lack of Debuffs - Hmm I always use our Cold Debuff. Why do we have to get additional debuffs ?</div><div> </div><div>The level 70 upgrade of heirophantic Genesis is actually pretty good. I don't mind using this spell whenever it pops.</div><div> </div><div>Tunare's Watch? Weak? You kiddin me? 5 minute recast group DI ? I can't count the times that this has saved a group member, or not to mention the MT. We use a guardian MT and not a zerker MT, so DI's are really important. Often I will even use this one right on the pull, just in case the taunt is resisted and the mob runs for the templar, or guardian gets a triple 9k spike, etc. One of the weaknesses of Nature's Respite, our single target DI, is that we have to target the person who's getting hit. This takes longer for us to process and perform than the actual casting time of the spell. So in an emergency just throwing up the group version is alot faster.</div><div> </div><div>Tranquility - Yeah this needs to be looked at. It's useless if you're not in the MT group in a raid situation. Pretty cool for groups. Casting time needs to be dropped to the same as our other cures though. I think it'd be fixed if it were just insta cast. An insta cast heal that strips 2 of every detrimental spell (at M1) useable every minute, I like that.</div><div> </div><div>I disagree with changing evac. No evac should be faster than a scout's evac. Pop tunare's watch, then hit evac.</div><div> </div><div>Sylph line - I agree we don't have the best of the deagro's, I think the Mystic one is the best. But eh, it's still useful. I find it useful when I'm running away from something or training mobs <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></div><div> </div><div>Spike damage - It's all about how you play your warden, and the fights you're in. When a tank is prone to getting hit for more damage than you can quickly heal, you need to plan on group regen and regen being something you have up all the time. 900+ HP every 2 seconds, plus our heals. I don't think we have too much of a problem with spike damage. No, we can't heal for 1700, but if you are prepared for spike damage, you'll do fine. If you're in the MT group you can chain heal spells. On a healing parse I will be more than double the hp healed of any other healer. DH1 / DH2 / DH1 / regen / chloro / DH1 / DH2 / DH1 .... with good power regen you can hold that chain up for a few minutes at least.</div><hr></blockquote><p>/completly aggree. I often solo heal groups in KoS dungeons and instances and if you are using all the spells available to you it is cake. Personally I don't see anything wrong with Wardens at all and know several people who think they are by far the best healers in a group.</p><p>Not that any of the above points are not valid, i just don't think any of them are broken to the point of being useless. Just becuase many wardens *dont* use a spell does not mean it's necessarily broken. And man... Sandstorm? kept up in a group, even one moving around in a dungeon, cuts the amount I have to heal in half, literally. Tranquility? a multiple cure and heal? even the casting time on that spell is more efficient than casting all the single cures + another heal, and it stacks, and if you look at test update notes you will see that they are going to make it raid friendly. Tunare's watch? group and single spell? um can you say 2 chances of saving someones butt?</p><p>At level 68 I have at least 1000 more power from a comparitivly equipped templar and my heals are sooo much more efficient. I've been able to handle any spike damage also. Like the above poster says, you just have to be aware of what's going on and chain those heals. With a decent mana regen class in the group I can chain heals over and over non stop and barely get my power pool down.</p><p>We are already one of the best healers around, giving in to all the stuff in the first post would possibly make us way too overpowered. And then they would end up nerfing us all to hell. Wardens are one of those classes that really define the talented player from the average player.</p><hr></blockquote><p>i love both of these posts :smileywink:...they represent my experience too</p><ul><li>i can out-heal any other healer i've met</li><li>i also have about 1,000 more power than many healers...i often out-power some of the mages...i can't remember the last time i ran out of power - and i'm pretty much always casting something during an encounter</li><li>i love sandstorm - yeah, sometimes it's a bit of a pain to put it down and pick it up, but it's not that big an issue to me</li><li>i don't want a spike heal...it's just not our role...like these posters said, we can do very well with skilfull use of our heals</li><li>i think playing a warden is a real challenge and therefore rewarding...not challenging because we're gimped, but challenging because we have a lot of strategy options to consider for every encounter...roots/pets/trees/heals/dps, etc.</li><li>i can solo heal in most areas of KoS...i'm not sure other classes can, but when i've grouped with other healing classes, i can tell that they couldn't solo it</li></ul><p>and my favourite line: "Wardens are one of those classes that really define the talented player from the average player."...i agree 100%</p><p></p>

[slayerwarrior]

<div></div><div></div><p><strong>Sylph Line</strong></p><p><strong>plz don't pick on this line imo, only thing i wish they give us something to help with  spike damg, </strong></p><p><strong>taking ha removing stun and puting a root inplace our making it do ungodly amount of health per tick. </strong></p><p><strong>lower recast time and casting time on tranquility, </strong></p><p><strong>giving us a buff that adds 1k group health.</strong></p><p>Message Edited by slayerwarrior on <span class="date_text">03-18-2006</span><span class="time_text">03:05 PM</span></p>

[Formangenavn]

<div></div><p>A few small things.</p><p>Evac: If it is meant to be a transport spell, then it is fine. If it is meant to get us out of heary situations then it is too slow to be reliable. I always thought it was meant to be the latter, but I might have been mistaken.</p><p>Spike damage: This is usually not a problem when you have controll over the situations you are in, unless your grp pulles something it shouldnt have. The problem arrises when you get unexpected adds. Again, if you are quick to respond this is usually not a problem. I seldom loose a tank in these cases, but if I do it is always be cause ticks from our HoTs are not fast enough. I can have casted 2k of POTENTIAL healing on the tank, but that means nothing if he is at -1 hp. The reason I meantion this is be cause of our DHs. I see no advantages and only disadvantages in having such a large part of our heal be a HoT. From a class flawor point of view I am fine with having the HoT component on our DHs, but can anyone come up with a single reason why it needs to be so big?</p><p>When it comes to DHs, up front is ALWAY better then "in 10 sec"</p>

[Sorano]

<div>Two Bugs:</div><div>As of LU19, Sylvan Touch and Spirit of the Bat can no longer be upgraded to adept3 because their are no recipes for them. This gives an unfair advantage to wardens who have upgraded their spells prior to that and disadvantages any new wardens.</div>

[Dragonreal]

<div></div>Sylvan touch SHOULDN'T be upgradeable; idc if it was put in or not, it's not fair to the shammys and clrs who have a non-upgradeable single target emergency  spell, and the very fact that not only was the ad3 recipe taken out but that the heal itself was scaled down tells me that it is now as it's supposed to be. As for sotb, yes I agree that recipe needs to be put back in if it was taken out.

[Touryn]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Treveur wrote:<ul><li>i can out-heal any other healer i've met</li><li>i also have about 1,000 more power than many healers...i often out-power some of the mages...i can't remember the last time i ran out of power - and i'm pretty much always casting something during an encounter</li></ul><p></p><hr></blockquote><p>While true in groups, it becomes less true on raids.  The core of our high power comes primarily from our wisdom buffs, but in raids, enchanters, wizards, and other buffers generally bring other priests to their caps also.  Generally, the only thing keeping me ahead of other healers on raids is my Master I Aspect of the Hawk.  Often times, when I cast it a second time to fill up my last concentration slot, I stop being the highest powered healer.</p><blockquote><p></p><hr><ul><li>i love sandstorm - yeah, sometimes it's a bit of a pain to put it down and pick it up, but it's not that big an issue to me</li></ul><p></p><hr></blockquote><p>Usage can be a pain, but the biggest shortcoming is its general uselessness against anything at high yellow or harder, especially if immune to the stun component.</p><blockquote><p></p><hr><ul><li>i don't want a spike heal...it's just not our role...like these posters said, we can do very well with skilfull use of our heals</li></ul><p></p><hr></blockquote><p>I sense the formation of two camps here.  One (which I probably align with) sees nothing wrong with our healing.  The other feels we are still unable to adequetly handle spike healing.  I would like to see more from the people that aren't able to handle spike healing:  What encounters are they fighting?  What is the level and class of their tank?  What is the level of their heals?  How are they casting them?</p><p>I have the spike healing on the list at a low priority because I personally don't agree with it, but I would like to get some solid input from those who are suffering before I either increase its priority or wipe it from the chart.</p><blockquote><p></p><hr><ul><li>i think playing a warden is a real challenge and therefore rewarding...not challenging because we're gimped, but challenging because we have a lot of strategy options to consider for every encounter...roots/pets/trees/heals/dps, etc.</li><li>i can solo heal in most areas of KoS...i'm not sure other classes can, but when i've grouped with other healing classes, i can tell that they couldn't solo it</li></ul><p>and my favourite line: "Wardens are one of those classes that really define the talented player from the average player."...i agree 100%</p><p></p><hr></blockquote>I don't really get frustrated with my Warden until I hit the hardest content, stuff you can't solo heal.  In this environment, how much you heal as an individual becomes less important than what you can provide in buffs.  I might be able to heal 10~20% more than a templar, but on a 24 man raid with 6 healers, that's only 2~3% of total healing output.  A templar's mitigation buffs in the main tank group have a much more significant impact on damage received.  Even if I have 10% more mana than the other healers, I can't keep the tank alive when the other healers dry up.  It's in this environment that I feel like I am competing against other healers and losing.

[Mrrockmeister]

Hey GuysI think they must have fixed the spirit of the bat, as I had a guildy make it for me the other night, ad3.Just an FYI.<div></div>

[Lordviperscorpian]

You know how illusionist can cast mex on the run?  Thats what i want for our single target regrowth line =) /dream. Lol.Anyway, good list.  I agree that we need something that sets us apart from other healers, esspecially furies.  I just dont see enough difference in fury/warden healing but i definatly see the difference between fury/warden DPS.  Time for a change.As for the AA abilities...some of them are nice, but are just in the wrong spot...i mean the % to crit heal should be in wisdom line...and a few others need to be swaped as well.  Whoever made the AA abilities just wasnt trying hard enough. Id also like to see a difference in the Adept 1 vs app1 evac.  Maybe a shorter cast time? Or cast on the move if we get adept 3 or higher? Give us a fire DoT.  Immolate anyone? OR Give us the wolf mini pets earlier...like a version at 35..or something.  We need it.<div></div>

[Dragonreal]

<div></div>Please leave the crit heals where they are... I can already raid with pretty much nothing but my ft gear weapon and a symbol and not lose out on any wis.. I really don't need anymore =X crit heals are fine where they are; what they NEED to do is make the wis line appealing to both the druid classes and not just the furies for the chance at a root, aggro reduction, and some easy wis.

[Treve]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Dragonrealms wrote:<div></div>what they NEED to do is make the wis line appealing to both the druid classes and not just the furies for the chance at a root, aggro reduction, and some easy wis.<hr></blockquote><p>just a question...what do you think the ratio of furies to wardens is...maybe the devs favor the classes that have the most population?</p><p>i think wardens are *scarce*...mind you, not scarcer than before, but always have been...i might guess a ratio of more than 10 furies:1 warden</p>

[Unmask]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Dragonrealms wrote:<div></div>Sylvan touch SHOULDN'T be upgradeable; idc if it was put in or not, it's not fair to the shammys and clrs who have a non-upgradeable single target emergency  spell, and the very fact that not only was the ad3 recipe taken out but that the heal itself was scaled down tells me that it is now as it's supposed to be. As for sotb, yes I agree that recipe needs to be put back in if it was taken out.<hr></blockquote>I agree.  When it was added in a patch I asked about it in the tradeskill forums why but never got any responses.  As far as I recall my adept 3 version was not scaled down or am I misunderstanding you?

[Dragonreal]

<div></div>before kos, at lvll 60 my ad3 was doing 800ish heal with a 155/tick regen; after kos, it was doing only 600ish with I forget the number on the regen =/ needless to say it WAS scaled down heh

[Unmask]

<div></div>Yeah I never noticed the change til now. <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Barand]

<span><blockquote><hr>Treveur wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr>Dragonrealms wrote:<div></div>what they NEED to do is make the wis line appealing to both the druid classes and not just the furies for the chance at a root, aggro reduction, and some easy wis.<hr></blockquote><p>just a question...what do you think the ratio of furies to wardens is...maybe the devs favor the classes that have the most population?</p><p>i think wardens are *scarce*...mind you, not scarcer than before, but always have been...i might guess a ratio of more than 10 furies:1 warden</p><hr></blockquote>And nerf too the int line for DPS, and free INT for us ?WIS line sucks for warden i agree but we can go other way and compensate our weakness</span><div></div>

[Formangenavn]

<div></div><p>I agree. Since wis is easily caped, its a good thing the wis line is useless :smileyvery-happy:</p><p> </p><p>Oh, and can we get this thread <font size="7" color="#66ff00">STICKIED PLZ?</font></p>

[Dragonreal]

<div></div><p>why exactly would they need to nerf int line if they made wis appealing to both druid classes? I  really dont' see the reasoning there.. as it is, furies can look at wis and say hey cool I could use more wis, aoe root would be neat, and less aggro or they can look at int and help max themselves on int easier, get spell crits, get more disruption, get a neat little aoe proc thingy. And of course they can look at sta and agi and see all the same advantages that we do, and actually they can even look at str and see something there because they have a buff they can put on themselves to buff their str (means more damage than we can get out of the CAs in the line) as well as give them a chance to proc haste and I'd think (haven't tested out on my fury yet) that their buff + the sword attack/haste skill + the double attack proc would be a nice combo on a fury. </p><p>What can wardens look at? sta/agi /int and see same advantages as furies, but we have no use for wis line and don't have as much advantage going down str line as a fury would.</p>

[Treve]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Formangenavn wrote:<div></div><p>Oh, and can we get this thread <font size="7" color="#66ff00">STICKIED PLZ?</font></p><hr></blockquote>i vote "no"...there is another thread that still has 3 times more responses than this one, and the content of this one is no different

[Formangenavn]

<div></div>This thread is getting updated more and has all information on first post. And if they have the same info in them, why not chose this one? Number of responses on a thread means nothing. Just look at us now, we contribute nothing to this thread with these posts.

[Formangenavn]

<div></div><p>I have another suggestion.</p><p>Tranquilizing Spores heals for x above 50% health and 2x below 50% health. Why did they do this? I have no idea, but it's a nice twist.</p><p>The problem with this spell is that you do not know when it will proc. It's a good think it will heal for more IF it procs when tank is low on health, but I think it would be better if instead it would have twice the proc chance below 50% health. We realy only need it when tank is low on health so it makes perfect sence that this is the time we would want it to proc.</p><p>So make it heal for the same amount but proc rate at 8% (I think) over 50% health and 16% below 50% health. What does this do? It makes it a little bit more reliable, and that is what this spell is lacking, IMHO.</p>

[Barand]

If they have to sticky i would prefer this one. I will not update the thread i started because i think that if a dev come one day here and look at it, i will have to see everyone point of view and not just read my interpration of warden issue.I also dont have the time to study everyone point of view and dont have enough knowledge (or influence <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> ) to choose what is right and what is wrong.In my case i m mainly concern about raiding issue concerning what we bring except for healing. No exceptional buff, no debuff, DPS only (and lower than any real DPS)<div></div>

[Touryn]

<div></div><div></div><div></div><div><span><blockquote><hr>Iranos wrote:If they have to sticky i would prefer this one. I will not update the thread i started because i think that if a dev come one day here and look at it, i will have to see everyone point of view and not just read my interpration of warden issue.I also dont have the time to study everyone point of view and dont have enough knowledge (or influence <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> ) to choose what is right and what is wrong.In my case i m mainly concern about raiding issue concerning what we bring except for healing. No exceptional buff, no debuff, DPS only (and lower than any real DPS)<div></div><hr></blockquote>I went ahead and modified the introduction to incorporate that last sentence since it agrees with my view on the class and probably most of the people here.I also agree with the 'everyone's viewpoint' thing.  No matter what I write, it will end up being colored by my own perspective.  I probably have gone a little overboard trying to include everyone (even things I don't agree with) to create some illusion of objectivity, but using ordering and priorities to bring attention to what I feel are the most important point (namely, the raiding issues).  I'm sure there are people out there that agree and others that don't, but without some strong statement as to 'we want this,' I highly doubt anything would happen other than nerfs.Don't worry, your influence is probably stronger than mine.  I went months without posting anything to any forum before I posted this.What I would like to do next is to generate a table comparing the buffing/debuffing (as a unified package) of the different priest classes in tier 7.  If we wish to continue claiming that our raid utility is weak compared to other priests, we better be prepared to back it up.EDIT: I'm not going to ask for this thread to be stickied.  I've already made a pretty pompous statement by writing this post, claiming to be a concensus on Warden issues.  If someone out there wants it to be sticked, please PM a moderator.  It would be far more effective than what is effectively a needle in a haystack for the moderators by posting here to that effect.</span></div><p>EDIT(2): Another thing I would like to see, for those who played SWG, is a return of the forum class leaders.  At least for a short while (matter of days, probably), they actually seemed effective at getting feedback to and from the developers.<span class="time_text"></span></p><p>Message Edited by Touryn on <span class="date_text">03-23-2006</span><span class="time_text">08:56 AM</span></p>

[Formangenavn]

<blockquote><hr>Touryn wrote:<div></div><div></div><div></div><div><span>What I would like to do next is to generate a table comparing the buffing/debuffing (as a unified package) of the different priest classes in tier 7.  If we wish to continue claiming that our raid utility is weak compared to other priests, we better be prepared to back it up.</span><hr></div></blockquote><p>YES, I totally agree. There already is lists of t6 buffs and debuffs (not short duration buffs though) but I am sure you already know this. Also, we should try to have all the healing numbers presented aswell. Only if those are more or less balanced (which they realy should be) can we start arguing about lacking in other things we bring to grps and raid.</p><p>I have been trying to find out what resists realy does (see under Combat Discussion, Resists) but does not have enough information yet. I realy see this as an important point. No point in beeing good at something that does nothing.</p>

[Barand]

Buff and debuff would be greatOnly issue is how to arrange it. A +59 in crushing vs a damage proc is not really comparable. But at least having all buff / debuff listed would give an overhaul view of warden against over priest.<div></div>

[Golembes]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Touryn wrote:<div></div><div></div><ol><li><font size="6" color="#ff0000"><span>IV. Weak Spells</span></font></li><li><span><b>Heirophantic Genesis</b>Both the efficiency and raw healing potential of this spell are substantially lower than what is possible while not stunned. The only viable use of this spell is as a low-quality power feed to the tank or situations where the priests spend a considerable amount of time already stunned. This spell is simply not comparable with the level 50 marque spells of other priests.  While the mana feed is a possible tool, its size is pultry compared to quantity being consumed at that tier, preventing it from being an effective counter to the less-than-stellar heal component.<font color="#ffcc00"><b>Suggestion:</b></font> Efficiency definately needs to be increased.  Additionally, either significantly increase size of heal match/exceed that while not stunned or remove the stun.  Increase size of mana feed.<u><em><strong><font size="4"><font color="#ffcc00">Note:</font> Opinion is the level 70 is an effective spell.  This issue is currently limited to the level 50 spell.</font></strong></em></u><font color="#ffcc00"><b>Priority:</b></font> Medium<hr></span></li></ol><p><span>I would have to respectfully disagree with that opinion.  First of all because I don't think the spell is very good at all but that is besides the real point I want to make.</span></p><p><span>Right now, Heirophant Advent at Master 1 only heals for about half of what we can heal normally (M1 and AdeptIII heals), and that loss in healing power is only offset by a 40 power/2sec return.  It's better than HG for sure, but then again we don't get any direct heal upgrades this tier.  So, when the next expansion hits we'll get our two direct heal upgrades, the relative effectiveness of HA immediatly decreases --a lot--, and we'll be left with a highly unused spell again.  Increasing power pools and power costs of combat arts and spells in the coming tiers will also reduce the impact of this spell.</span></p><p><span>In the in not-to-distant future this post will read: <font size="4"><strong><em><u><font color="#ffcc00">Note:</font> Opinion is the level 90 is an effective spell.  This issue is currently limited to the level 70 spell.</u></em></strong></font><font size="2">  Also, before this spell is upgraded at 90, we will again get direct heals upgraded in t9 (hypothetically), so I doubt the level 90 spell would be used instead of the two new direct heals.</font></span></p><p><span><font size="2">What I'm trying to say is, the issue isn't necissarily if the spell is effective now (which some feel it is), but will the spell remain effective through the duration we have it before it is upgraded (ala the fury's Porcupine->Urchin).  It is a problem with the spell line and not just the outdated spell:  Eventually all spells will be outdated but they should remain effective at least until they are upgraded.</font></span></p><p><span><font size="2"><em>Note:  In my opinion, either the amount this spell heals or the power it returns need to be doubled (or more for the power return) for it to be truly appealing.</em></font></span></p><p><span><strong><em><u><font size="4"></font></u></em></strong></span> </p></blockquote>

[Formangenavn]

<div></div><p>I agree to this. It is infact much the same issues Furys have with their lev 65 spell (although you can argu how smart it is to complain about the damage furys get, in principal I aggre with them). If this spell is to be worth casting there is a few vertions of the spell I can think of.  To varent the stunn effect, thereby reducing our ability to react and heal other targets, this spell should either:</p><p>1. Heal more then what we can do with our other spells</p><p>2. Be VERY power efficient</p><p>3. Give something extra</p><p>They tried with number 3 but it was not enough/the right thing. Personally I like number 1 and 2, but if this spell was to be given something more then just healing, it should be a boost to help keep someone alive longer, be course that is what we do. VERY seldom will I do anything that will reduce the probability for my tank to survive. It will have to give us something in THAT general category to be worth casting. We are supposed to be the defencive druids so give us the tools we need to be just that.</p>

[Touryn]

I've gone ahead and removed the spell level qualifier.  As I have never had the opportunity to use HA (due to not being 70), I simply went by the only comment I found: someone earlier in this thread saying they actually use HA.  It isn't inconceivable that an upgrade would be worthwhile in its tier while the original spell was trash.Yes, I agree that HG has been nerfed into uselessness.  Not only is it smaller than what is possible without the stun, it's efficiency is lower.  The power feed can only be described as "nice try."  I assume they were trying to increase the utility of the spell without upsetting the real mana feeders or "unbalancing" the spell (feel free to laugh).<div></div>

[Taval]

I would like to see this thread stickied too.The only thing that I can contribute at this time is <a href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=spells&message.id=9894#M9894" target="_blank">this thread</a>.I posted a screenshot of Sylvan Touch Apprentice II at Level 50... and a Level 50 Fury with Sylvan Touch Adept III claims that the numbers are the same.Thanks for your time and effort.<a href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=spells&message.id=9894#M9894" target="_blank"></a><div></div>

[Shadus]

True, but this thread has a much better layout and format that would be easier for the devs to deal with.<div></div>

[Oakum]

<div></div><p>Pretty good post overall. Have to disagree with the reason the hats for T7 are wrong. Druids are preservers of the balance of nature. We are like modern day conservation agents. If there are not enough predators but too many of the "food species" we increase the hunting of them to keep them from long lingering starving deaths or introduce more predators like wolfs ect. If the food species are getting too thin we protect them by cutting back on the hunting and increasing the hunting of wolf ect so they dont starve to death. We thin out what ever species we need to maintain that balance and aid the weak ones in recovering.  We are NOT "protect all thats natural no matter what the consequences and be happy because hundreds of thousand of animals had slow lingering starvation deaths were not hunted" type people. The problem with the hat in my view is that it is a bear. Bears have always been associated with Shaman. Not Druids.  A wolf would be a much better hat.</p><p>The other thing is healing. While in a long raiding fight our numbers are probably ok and solo or group they are sufficient for average mobs. We are hurt by the lack of a big heal. Even a monk heal for 25 percent is larger then our biggest DH. When the tank is getting hit hard fast due to a debuff ect, our heals can not save them sometimes whereas all other healers can throw on a big true DH and it will raise the tanks health high enough to give them time for other heals.  We have to cast both our single target dh's, and our regen heal in order to achieve the same amount of instant health. For us this is actually slower then the other healer classes since you have to add the casting times of all three spells together.  Granted once they are all cast and go through their regen portions they probably heal more then the 1 big spell the other healers cast, its sometimes too late for the tank is dead by then.  If they do increase our utility that would in some ways compensate for that.</p><p>I don't raid often so I am not as concerned or as knowledgeable with our raid problems so I won't speak about them.</p>

[Formangenavn]

<div></div>I partially agree with that last thing. Our problem with sudden increased dps is partly becouse HoTs wont scale to that, we have DHs that takes a while to deliver full load and we buff hp the least (same as Fury). Personally I do not think changing the HoTs is the solution. But haveing larger part of DH initially and giving us a larger hp buff would help a lot. I have said these things before and for the life of me I can not understand why druids boost hp the least. The logical choice would be to have us boost hp the most.

[Krien the Wick]

<div><blockquote><hr><div><p><font size="6" color="#ff0000"><span>V. Shortcomings</span></font></p><ol><li><span><b>Weak Buffs</b>Compared to other priests, our buffs are rather poor. The majority of damage mobs deal is physical in nature and our protection against physical damage is practically non-existent. Our magic resists are not sufficient to make up for this weakness. Non-elemental resists can be exceeded by other classes providing superior melee protection and even our elemental resists can be largely matched by furies, who also provide superior buffs. While our wisdom buffs help us be better healers, rarely is it sufficient to make us competitive for spots on raids, especially the coveted main tank group.<font color="#ffcc00"><b>Suggestion:</b></font> An increase in the effectiveness of Duststorm/Sandstorm against orange epic mobs would be sufficient.  Additionally, increases to mitigation or significant increases to elemental resists could be effective.<font color="#ffcc00"><b>Priority:</b></font> High</span></li></ol></div><hr></blockquote>Hey, just wanted to point something out. Your physical resistance buff is the exact same as every other priest of the same tier. It may help you to look at <a href="http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y53/Eirgorn/PriestBuffs.gif" target="_blank">this</a> list to get a better feel of what the other classes buffs do. If you look at that, you outbuff the furies (in fact everyone else) in the resistance department, which is better on raids (especially MT group) as well as more wis than anyone else, which also boosts resists. For raids, I would argue that you have THE best buffs, from a defensive standpoint.  </div><div> </div><div><a href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=combat&message.id=89606" target="_blank">This thread</a> has class comparison charts for all classes buffs and debuffs.</div><div> </div><div>Not flaming or trying to troll, just wanted to point that out <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></div>

[Lordviperscorpian]

<div></div>A simple fix for HG would be:1. Make is effect group instead of single target.2. Increase power gain.3. Lower recast time, as it currently stand 3 minutes makes this spell more of a joke than it already is. The stun can stay...Wallah.  An instant good spell.<div></div><p>Message Edited by Lordviperscorpian on <span class="date_text">03-26-2006</span><span class="time_text">08:23 AM</span></p>

[Formangenavn]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Krien the Wicked wrote:<div><blockquote><hr><div><p><font size="6" color="#ff0000"><span>V. Shortcomings</span></font></p><ol><li><span><b>Weak Buffs</b>Compared to other priests, our buffs are rather poor. The majority of damage mobs deal is physical in nature and our protection against physical damage is practically non-existent. Our magic resists are not sufficient to make up for this weakness. Non-elemental resists can be exceeded by other classes providing superior melee protection and even our elemental resists can be largely matched by furies, who also provide superior buffs. While our wisdom buffs help us be better healers, rarely is it sufficient to make us competitive for spots on raids, especially the coveted main tank group.<font color="#ffcc00"><b>Suggestion:</b></font> An increase in the effectiveness of Duststorm/Sandstorm against orange epic mobs would be sufficient.  Additionally, increases to mitigation or significant increases to elemental resists could be effective.<font color="#ffcc00"><b>Priority:</b></font> High</span></li></ol></div><hr></blockquote>Hey, just wanted to point something out. Your physical resistance buff is the exact same as every other priest of the same tier. It may help you to look at <a href="http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y53/Eirgorn/PriestBuffs.gif" target="_blank">this</a> list to get a better feel of what the other classes buffs do. If you look at that, you outbuff the furies (in fact everyone else) in the resistance department, which is better on raids (especially MT group) as well as more wis than anyone else, which also boosts resists. For raids, I would argue that you have THE best buffs, from a defensive standpoint.  </div><div> </div><div><a href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=combat&message.id=89606" target="_blank">This thread</a> has class comparison charts for all classes buffs and debuffs.</div><div> </div><div>Not flaming or trying to troll, just wanted to point that out <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></div><hr></blockquote>All of my Wis buffs increase my resists with 460 (add3 spells gives 161 wis). Since this is the best buffs in the game (on raid), could you plz enlighten us what this does? How much exactly does 460 extra in resists help? How easy is it to cap resists? How about vs orange con raid mobs? Any thoughts?

[Barand]

<div></div><a href="../view_profile?user.id=90907" target="top"><span>Formangenavn</span></a> is rightBuffing resist is not that great for 2 reason :- Resist can be easily capped, no mob do damage for all resist, so if you focus on heat for example, you can cap it easily.Imagine that the tank hp are capped at 10K, and you will feel how useless resist buff can be sometimes <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />- Resist has only use from time to time. You dont need resist on solo or heroic. You don't need resist on trash raid mob most of the time. You even don't need resist on some named. Whereas hp buff has use everywhere everytime.<div></div>

[Touryn]

<div><span><blockquote><hr>Iranos wrote:<div></div><a href="../view_profile?user.id=90907" target="top"><span>Formangenavn</span></a> is rightBuffing resist is not that great for 2 reason :- Resist can be easily capped, no mob do damage for all resist, so if you focus on heat for example, you can cap it easily.Imagine that the tank hp are capped at 10K, and you will feel how useless resist buff can be sometimes <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />- Resist has only use from time to time. You dont need resist on solo or heroic. You don't need resist on trash raid mob most of the time. You even don't need resist on some named. Whereas hp buff has use everywhere everytime.<div></div><hr></blockquote>Considering this is the heart of most people's complaint, it's good that someone finally took issue with my wording.  I've gone ahead and completely rewritten that paragraph,emphasizing points like this.  Make any and all suggestions necessary for language change.  If I felt that I was someone other than 'just another healer' on a raid (in a good way), I could live with broken spells.</span></div>

[mikemcmodmi]

<div></div>Ok, one thing.  Our AAs are fine, people who are complaining I feel are picking the wrong ones.  If anything our AAs will get nurfed before they get improved so lets just remove that from our list <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  Trust me, they're good if you pick the right ones.  You might ruin a good thing if they play around with them and take away some stuff that really helps druids a lot.

[Krien the Wick]

<div>My main point is that the mitigation was the same for all priests, and not many buffs are exceptionally strong.  </div><div> </div><div>HP/Resist debuff. All priests have the same HP on those buffs at same tier and spell level. The difference is the specialty of resists. Templars and Inquisitors have a slight lead covering three resists, however, the arcane resists don't seem to be as common as the other types, which somewhat evens it out.</div><div> </div><div>Mitigation + stat buff is a bit different. Templars do hp which is quite useful, as it can't be capped. Mystics get a tiny ward, and furies get a tiny regen per tick, which in the grand scheme of things isn't going to be something required, or even make a difference. Inquisitors get STA which is usually one of the first stats capped by tanks, or many classes for that matter. Defilers and wardens cover all resists, with wardens doing more overall.Physical mitigation is exactly the same for all classes.Each of the special parts of these buffs are marginally useful at best, with templars coming in the lead with the raw hp.</div><div> </div><div>For the class specific group buff, defilers buff raw hp, and str, which comes ahead of everyone else for this line. Everyone else get stats buffs, with wardens having the most defensive in this line, raising agi and wis, which is avoidance and resists. Considering many tanks have sta, str, agi maxed, this leaves wis for the resists. Furies get int which is maginally usefull for a tank at best. Inquisitors get a group damage proc, and templars don't recieve a spell along these lines.</div><div> </div><div>As for the single target concentration buffs, everyone except druids buff hp. This buff I can see might need to be looked at. The power/wis buff is nice for priests or maybe sk/pallys if you have one tanking. Adding hp to it would take away the power or wis though, to make it even with the other buffs. The cleric ones only help with autoattack, shaman ones help everyone, druid ones help casters.</div><div> </div><div>The single target no concentration buff is where you shine, on raids. Many people don't realize the power of this type of buff. By increasing the offensive skills of the tank, you are effectively making that orange mob yellow. Meaning more skills will hit, which allows them to keep the mob on them better. None of the other ones are essential to the MT.</div><div> </div><div>I'm not saying that wardens are the best at buffing. But your buffs are not weak by far, they are in line with other priest buffs. Keep in mind I am not trying to be rude about this at all. All priests buff stats that are useless, as they are most often capped. STR, STA, and usually AGI are all capped by the meatshields on raids. Raw hp is the difference in our buffs that matter it seems. Since templars and defilers buff the most, a warden has the second best buffs, as they can buff the priests in that group, increasing their wis and power, which are just as important.</div><div> </div><div>I can't comment on sandstorm and how it is compared to other spells, as I don't have any spells that are even close to it. I can't comment on your 50/70 spell either, as I don't use it, and mine is int + haste. At 70 we get recast timer haste as well. But Inquisitors were never meant to be in an MT group anyway <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></div><div> </div><div>Remember, I'm not trying to be difficult. It's just that most priest buffs have weaknesses the same as yours.</div>

[Formangenavn]

<div>Krien the Wicked, Can you not see the contradiction in saying no point in buffing STA since MT will be caped but it is great to buff Wis for casters? (I asume you mean healers for more power).</div><div> </div><div>Healers prime stat will be just as capped as MT prime stat. So unless you have pally or sk tank (I guess) all our buffs do is raise resists, which does very little.</div><div> </div><div>I have tried finding out what resists actually does. Noone seems to know exactly, so how can you say it is so important? Since you know it is a good buff, what does it do? What does +460 in resists do? Do not missunderstand me here. There is nothing I would like more then for resists to be a very good buff, but to me that does not seem to be the case. I would love to be proven wrong on this one though.</div><div> </div><div>Oh, and one more thing, is STR, AGI and STA USUALLY capped by MT before he is buffed by others in his grp? I can easily cap wis, and I have seen people who could cap another stat aswell, but 3 stats? Is that possible unless you are THE mt on your server? Or even then? Just asking.</div><div> </div><div>As others have said here before, buffing HP wil ALLWAYS be good, no matter what. Let me portray you a picture of the extreme difference between a defiler and warden on initial pull. With me alone as healer in grp MT will have 6k hp (just a number, but it is realistick). I put up my Protecting grove (healing tree), cast single and grp HoT and tank makes a perfect pull. On initial damage tree will heal for 200hp, grp HoT for 300hp and single HoT for 400. So in a perfect world those can tick off in 0.5 sek after damage has been done to "sort of" raise hp of tank to 6.9k hp.</div><div> </div><div>Then you have the defiler. He buff hp with 1.5 k more then me so tank is at 7.5k hp, then he cast single and grp ward (which lasts for 30 sek compared to our 10 sek HoTs right?) which increas hp by another 4k? And then they have warding pet right? In conclution tank has more or less 2x hp.</div><div> </div><div>This is just on top of the fact that HoTs are the ONLY special heal that is waisted if tank is not taking damage, so we want to keep tank at no higher then 90% hp and it has a 10 sec duration. Oh, did I mention ALL of our heals have HoTs on them?</div><div> </div><div>Do you now understand why we think we are lacking buffs? We have the worst debuffs btw (more or less same as Fury I guess).</div><div> </div><div>We are good at hps and hpp for our heal, but keeping a grp alive is NOT just about heals, but that is ALL we have.</div>

[mikemcmodmi]

<div></div><div></div><p>Hum.</p><p>Resists.  Resists are the same thing as mitigation but only effect attacks of that type of spell damage.  For example ice comet.  It's a cold based attack.  The mitigation of the tank has no bearing on how much the ice comet hits for.  What mitigates the ice comet is the cold resist.  So if it's a 10k ice comet and the tank is at 30% resist then the ice comet will hit for 7k.  If the tank is at 70% resist then the ice comet will hit for 3k.  Again, physical mitigation has no bearing on the amount the ice comet hits for.</p><p>I believe resists were made less useful not because they are inherently useless in themselves, but because of how they reworked t6 vs t5 epics.  In t5 resists were great because the mobs hit for big specials and small autoattack.  These days it seems the mob's specials are weak and their autoattack does the majority of the mob's damage.  The aoe is usually resist related but I only saw 1 t6 mob where any kind of magical attack was over 30% of it's damage.  There are even a lot of mobs where their specials are melee damage.</p><p>When it comes down to it, resists don't have to be useless... they just have to either change the content or change our class.  That's where the problem lies.  Which way ya going to go SOE.  If you keep it like t6 then change Wardens because resists just aren't something you need a Warden to buff unless it's for the cold/heat resists, and then a Fury can go in G1 to replace us.</p><p> </p><p>Message Edited by mikemcmodmike on <span class="date_text">03-27-2006</span><span class="time_text">12:45 AM</span></p>

[Barand]

Great post <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />I can confirm on that.Yesterday at lab, our mystic was late and i have seen the difference before and after. Before the tank would go in red on pull, after it was as if he didn't take any damage.I was really feeling useless at that time. Its the way our healing work, and i see no problem with that as long as they give us something to cover this weakness.I was thinking that they give us the auto-rez spell because they knew a tank would automatically die on pull with us <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />. But without joking, these 2 spell could have their use in this situation if they would put the tank back at 50%HP or more. At least the single target one have a loooooong timer recast, make it powerful 50% 70% or even 100% it's not overpowered, if the tank has to die he will die 2s later, it's just a big ward or a big heal that can eventually not proc !<div></div>

[Formangenavn]

<div></div><p>It sounds right mike, but are you sure? Seems to remember you could buff resists to 100% at one time, but I dont think that meant you took 0 damage. Just asking</p><p>Anyway, getting max resists (70%) vs lev 70 mob requires 4900 in resists. In an ideal situation where mt does not have caped resists we can buff ca 460 more resists then a Fury. This is an increase in 6.7% in resists and vs a 10k ice komet would reduce it with 600 damage (if mike is corect, and I for that matter :smileyvery-happy: ). Lets just say I am less then impressed.</p><p>Edit: Got the smiley wrong :smileyhappy:</p><p>Message Edited by Formangenavn on <span class="date_text">03-27-2006</span><span class="time_text">01:32 AM</span></p>

[mikemcmodmi]

<div></div><div></div><p>Yea, that's how they work but there's a cap on how much you can resist a magical or physical attack.  Btw, the mitigation cap and resist cap is 6k vs a lvl 70 mob, not 4900.  This will allow you to resist 80% of a kind of attack.  One thing I'm not sure about... if you're fighting a lvl 74 mob, is there an advantage to going over 6k?  The mitigation and resist number is for an even coned opponent so I'm not sure if buffing those numbers past the cap will help you resist more vs higher lvled opponents.  Not trying to derail the thread just answering.</p><p>Back in the old days of t5 magical attacks were deadly so buffing resists was key.  These days all it does it let your tank not have to switch out as much gear to cap a resist.</p><p>Btw, what happened to cross nukes?  Remember when the same mob would hit for elemental and nox attacks?  Adding resists across the board would help more if they had more of those kind of mobs.....  again, need more of t5 like content or change how much we buff. </p><p>Forget adding more resists actually, I'd like us to get a spell shield like temps and dirges get a stoneskin, except of course it absorbs magical attacks.  No reflection like troubs so they don't nurf it down to uselessness from the reflect overpowering it.</p><p>Message Edited by mikemcmodmike on <span class="date_text">03-27-2006</span><span class="time_text">01:54 AM</span></p>

[Formangenavn]

<div></div><p>I was told in this post: <a href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=combat&message.id=98492" target="_blank">http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=combat&message.id=98492</a></p><p>that 70% was max and mob lev (70) x % (70) would be max resist vs that mob (4900). There realy is no wonder why so few actually know what resists do. Does anyone REALY know 100 % what is right? Would be nice to get this comonly known once and for all.</p>

[Barand]

80% is the max for an even con and whatever happen you will never bypass this limit (even against a 1 --- you will only mitigate 80% at lvl 70 with 10K resist)after that it depend on the mobYou see the base resist % when you mouse over your resist. That says the % against a mob of the same lvl. Against a lvl 74 you will have to add a bit more to reach the cap.And some raid mob AOE are only resistable at 50% max (barakah, black queen for example), generally the boss of a raid zone.<div></div>

[Formangenavn]

<div></div><p>And 80% = 6k in resists vs lev 70 mob?</p><p>Are there any formulas for this?</p>

[Krien the Wick]

<div>I'm not sure what you meant in that your heals are wasted if the target is not taking damage. Reactives don't work at all if the tank isn't getting hit. Wards do their heal if they aren't used up. Regens heal regardless. If a tank has no damage, none of the heals are going to work. What you are saying in theory may be correct, but in situations where I have grouped with another healer, wardens and furies still amaze me with how well they heal.</div><div> </div><div>And yes I know all your heals have regen components, I think that should be changed but I'm not a warden so I don't have a say <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></div><div> </div><div>Resist percentages are capped at 70%. It shows you when you mouse over what it does for an even con opponent. It is the same as mitigation for physical attacks, ie at 70% mitigation a 1000 damage spell will only do 300. Resists, unlike other stats that anyone can buff, can technically go over the cap. These numbers aren't correct, but I am illustrating my point. Say 6k is the magic number for resists on a level 70. Now, against a level 71, it is 69%, a 72 68%, so on and so forth. However, if stats are buffed beyond 6k, the percentage will be higher, up to 70%, for higher level mobs. Also, as stated above, some mobs have caps on how much of their attacks can be mitigated.</div><div> </div><div>You are correct, auto attack damage does more than specialties total now. But, the magic attacks can be deastating. Those can be mitigated, making them less hurtful.</div><div> </div><div>And, quite a bit of gear I have seen in KoS has load of sta, str, and agi for tanks, I've seen 2 so far, in hardcore raiding guilds albeit, who already have 3 stats capped. And you are also correct that they switch out gear for resists. You can help them twofold. 1) you can buff their agi, making up for some lost with resist gear. 2) you can buff their resists, making them need to switch out less gear, so their other stats can stay higher. Also along this point, wis is lost when priests switch to resist gear, and, you can buff pure power as well. Resists are not required for all mobs or all raids, but, neither are all the other stats any of the priests can buff. If your guild or raiding party are not using resists to it's full advantage, then it's their loss.</div><div> </div><div>Granted, this is all situational. However, the strengths of ALL priests are situational.</div>

[Formangenavn]

<div><blockquote><hr>Krien the Wicked wrote:<div>I'm not sure what you meant in that your heals are wasted if the target is not taking damage. Reactives don't work at all if the tank isn't getting hit. Wards do their heal if they aren't used up. Regens heal regardless. If a tank has no damage, none of the heals are going to work. What you are saying in theory may be correct, but in situations where I have grouped with another healer, wardens and furies still amaze me with how well they heal.</div><div> </div><div><font color="#66ff00">I am glad we amaze you :smileyhappy: What I meant was, when you are fighting tank takes damage and you heal. Often you overcompensate or tank is not hit the next few seconds. So when tank is a full health, neither reactive nor wards will use its healingpotential, but HoTs will tick regardless, thereby loosing efficiency.</font></div><div> </div><div>And yes I know all your heals have regen components, I think that should be changed but I'm not a warden so I don't have a say <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></div><div> </div><div>Resist percentages are capped at 70%. It shows you when you mouse over what it does for an even con opponent. It is the same as mitigation for physical attacks, ie at 70% mitigation a 1000 damage spell will only do 300. Resists, unlike other stats that anyone can buff, can technically go over the cap. These numbers aren't correct, but I am illustrating my point. Say 6k is the magic number for resists on a level 70. Now, against a level 71, it is 69%, a 72 68%, so on and so forth. However, if stats are buffed beyond 6k, the percentage will be higher, up to 70%, for higher level mobs. Also, as stated above, some mobs have caps on how much of their attacks can be mitigated.</div><div> </div><div><font color="#66ff00">There are lots of ideas on how this works. Not sure which one is correct. Oh, and how do you know the "magic" number is correct? Are you sure there is any point in raising resists vs high con mobs over cap? You sure they dont just lower the max resist regardless of what you do?</font></div><div> </div><div>You are correct, auto attack damage does more than specialties total now. But, the magic attacks can be deastating. Those can be mitigated, making them less hurtful.</div><div> </div><div>And, quite a bit of gear I have seen in KoS has load of sta, str, and agi for tanks, I've seen 2 so far, in hardcore raiding guilds albeit, who already have 3 stats capped. And you are also correct that they switch out gear for resists. You can help them twofold. 1) you can buff their agi, making up for some lost with resist gear. 2) you can buff their resists, making them need to switch out less gear, so their other stats can stay higher. Also along this point, wis is lost when priests switch to resist gear, and, you can buff pure power as well. Resists are not required for all mobs or all raids, but, neither are all the other stats any of the priests can buff. If your guild or raiding party are not using resists to it's full advantage, then it's their loss.</div><div> </div><div>Granted, this is all situational. However, the strengths of ALL priests are situational.</div><div> </div><div><font color="#66ff00">Our stat buffs are mostly Wis, and the effect of that is higly situational. Stats that other priests can buff might also be situational, but hp buffs are NEVER situational. I can not think of a single situation where having more hp is not a good thing, can you?</font></div><hr></blockquote></div>

[Touryn]

<div></div>I guess I'll be quite honest about it.  I want to see a partial return of the pre-LU13 days, when Wardens were god-like in the MT group and Furies were god-like in the DPS groups.  I chose a woodelf druid because I wanted to hug trees.  I chose warden because it was the defensive route.  Things like priest DPS I could really care less about; I'm in it for the defense and only solo to finish up grey quests.  I loved when I was one of the reasons new guardians had a heart attack upon entering the MT group for the first time.  Back then, all the buffing classes knew their specific use on raids.In any case, any statement about buffing to the devs is likely to be an essay, not a paragraph.  It is also a complex problem to tackle, as it is part of the larger picture of raid utility and is closely associated with the list of broken spells.  Even something as simple as fixing HG or Sandstorm would do wonders for our raid utility.<b>Essence of the Great Bear</b><div></div>All the priests are pretty much equivalent here.  Maybe the clerics have the advantage as they buff three resists instead of two, but that's a minor complaint and not really worth worrying about.<b>Protection of the Oak</b>This is when we can start complaining.  You have Templars as obviously the most useful here and a scattering of other things of little to know value (due to size, caps, and other factors).  Maybe the solution to add balance without making everyone the same would be through some sort of effect.  If you want to maintain the offensive/defensive motif, Furies could have a proc or crit chance while Wardens could...okay, I'm at a loss here.<b>Benediction of the Wild</b>Clearly, defilers have the advantage here with their HP buff.  As people have pointed out, stat buffs are generally either maxed (agi/sta) on the tank or not of measurable value (wis/int).  One could argue that this is part of the reason tanks are at cap and removing it would take them down from cap, but I don't know how you can argue WIS makes us a viable MT buffer for the ~400 resist it would provide.<b>Aspect of the Hawk</b>Mystic and Defiler for the win, at least as the tank is concerned.  Clerics for the DPS increase.  Druids for the...what?  Mages are probably already at INT cap (poor Furies), priests are probably there also (poor Wardens).  Again, I could complain about resists.<b>Other Spells</b>This area gets hazy as there are no one-to-one comparisons.  We have the damage shield, mana regen, lotto regen (spores), and offensive skill up.  Obviously, torns and spores goes on the MT, offensive on your nearest scout, but does that give us any competitive advantage on the raid?  In a DPS group, the fury would still be preferred for their +50% to DPS and attack speed.   HG is pretty much all around useless except as a weak feed and Sandstorm is only good as a self mana drain.  While Porc is situational, it is very powerful when its situation comes up.<b>Resist Buffing</b>This is generally considered to be the area where wardens shine.  Besides the elemental buffing (which matches every other priest's resist buffing), we have wisdom buffs all over the place, 108 if I counted correctly.  This corresponds to roughly 523 broad spectrum resist (using a magic factor of 2.86 I extracted from myself a few weeks ago).  Add on the 214 from protection of the oak and you have yourself about 737 broad spectrum resist.Rarely does any current mob (raid or otherwise) have multiple magic types.  And on single resist lines, our guild's MT can cap the appropriate resist without taking the primary stats below cap (in part due to the stat buffs of other priests) and without a warden in the group.  Even if you had a prismatic mob, that 700 is less than 10% of a modern day resist cap.  Add in that the largest source of damage from modern mobs is physical, we start to feel a little useless.These problems may be shared with Furies in whole or in part, but with all the calls for nerfs on them already, any buff on their part would probably result in rioting in the streets.

[quetzaqotl]

<div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><blockquote><hr>Touryn wrote:<div></div>"lots of stuff I agree with"<hr></blockquote><p>I can only agree with this post above me  for the most part, tho our dps+haste increase isnt that hot as its a buff which can only be cast on 1 person and it is a proc at 10% chance for a duration of 10 secs that spell wont get us in a dps grp trust me and youre right about casters being int capped so we dont have a real very useful place in a caster grp either (troubs add much much more to casters).</p><p>And furies were never godlike for the dps grp in raids pre cu, inquisitors beat us with their haste, pre cu furies were severly broken templars and wardens were the top healers as we all know too warden dps was the same and in some cases even better than furies, so no I dont want to go back to pre cu tho I miss my proc buffs and animal form.</p><p>off topic</p><p>(Also I and many other furies are getting a bit sick of the idea that only a select few classes are allowed to discuss some flawed spells, a while ago on the spells and combat arts page we were discussing a spell which is very flawed atm called call of storms it took only 1 day till a couple of trolls destroyed that thread.)</p><p>Sorry for my semi-rant :smileywink:</p><p>Message Edited by quetzaqotl on <span class="date_text">03-27-2006</span><span class="time_text">10:50 AM</span></p>

[Formangenavn]

<div></div><p>Quertzaqotl why do you get troubadurs into this? They will never take the pace of a healer.</p><p>On a more serious note. You are quick to call others a troll, and yet here you are, complaining about Fury issues on the warden boards in a thread meant to deal with warden issues? How about looking in the mirror for once?</p><p>I actually think something should be done with call of storms, but this is NOT the place.</p>

[Owlbe]

<div></div><p>Thats not a troll.</p><p> </p><p>He offered a opinion, info about a class being compared to a warden and it was constructive and non-inflamatory.</p><p> </p><p>If you're going to call some one a troll at least get it right!</p><p> </p><p> </p>

[quetzaqotl]

<div></div><div></div><div></div><p>-edited away-  all has been said, dont want to derail.</p><p>Message Edited by quetzaqotl on <span class="date_text">03-27-2006</span><span class="time_text">11:32 AM</span></p>

[mikemcmodmi]

<div></div>Why do people keep saying resist cap is 70%?  It's 80% and has been for a long time, they changed it months ago.  Am I the only Warden that self buffs some resists to cap?  lol.  It's 6k resist/mit = 80%.

[heel]

<div></div><p>I want to see Sandstorm does cross-raid avoidance boost at least by 5% at adept 1!!, darn it!</p><p>Economically, our AA line does not offer much to the power reserves or casting/recast timer of spells. Plus, personally I don't want to have to sink all my AA points into the heal crit just to cover the shortage of that darn big heal amount. Unless my crit rate is high enough to rely on, I am forced to be bound to contingency of these small hot amount to keep up - power is costly at 70 heals, and I'm pretty much at same position where I was at lvl 60 healing lvl 60 groups. Only, with much better stat boost and relatively poor mitigation on new gears..I feel like a lvl 47 warden solohealing against flowmaster in LT.. :smileysad:</p>

[Formangenavn]

<div></div><p>You are right Mike, cap is 80. Tried it out last nite. Bought a ring for 4 gold and cast my elemental resist buff (cant remember name). Got my cold resist to 6400 and I even have items without a single resist one them. Only lev 66 atm so running around in a lot of t6 equipment.</p><p>Was thinking of getting an elemental caster to dual me, cast one spell 20 times and get average hit and do the same with a lot less resists. Would be nice to know if 25% increase in resist=25% decrease in damage taken. Didnt get around to it. If anyone is dual boxing it wouldnt be to hard to do this :smileywink:</p><p>The more I think about it the esier I see it is to cap a resist if you want to. You all realize that ONE item in inventory can buff resists with more then what we can ? (depending on spell quality I guess) This is just an example I used 10 sec to get: <a href="http://eq2.ogaming.com/db/items/AnagogMysticTunic.php" target="_blank">http://eq2.ogaming.com/db/items/AnagogMysticTunic.php</a></p><p>Yes, it's a very good item but it is a point that both resists and stats are too easy to cap, IMHO. I KNOW mystics will agree :smileyvery-happy:</p>

[Unmask]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Krien the Wicked wrote:<div> </div><div>The single target no concentration buff is where you shine, on raids. Many people don't realize the power of this type of buff. By increasing the offensive skills of the tank, you are effectively making that orange mob yellow. Meaning more skills will hit, which allows them to keep the mob on them better. None of the other ones are essential to the MT.</div><hr></blockquote><p>No matter what we or anyone else does, an orange mob is an orange mob.  Orange mobs make a lot of our buffs useless and this change from LU 13 is probably what hurt us the most.</p><p>If the MT needs to do increased damage to keep mobs on him then the raid is in trouble. </p><p>Most important stats are HP and mitigation and probably always will be (except possibly in some limited circumstances).</p>

[mikemcmodmi]

<div></div><div></div><p>Yes your right, hps and mitigation are definitely the most important stats.  Btw... how many healers do you guys raid with?  We raid with 6, but sometimes a cleric or fury isn't on so 5 healers.  I wonder if the over time nature of our heals is conflicting with bringing a lot of healers to a raid.  For example if you have 8 healers, I seriously doubt you're going to have the full effect of your heals to go off.</p><p>I don't know, I just don't understand how anyone can complain about Warden healing.  Cleric and Shamans buff hps which then allows druids to do the actual healing, that and Clerics do backup healing.  Wards aren't real heals and are more like temp hp buffs.  Reactives are heals but are more preventative and I'm talking about healing when the tank takes damage.  Is it just my guild where druids always outheal everyone else by lots?</p><p>Our problem as far as I'm concerned isn't hp buffs.  Let clerics and shamans have that.  It's being the defensive variant of a druid and not having superior defensive buffs to furies... and no debuffs.</p><p>Message Edited by mikemcmodmike on <span class="date_text">03-28-2006</span><span class="time_text">03:19 PM</span></p>

[Touryn]

<div></div><div><span><span>I agree on the healing numbers.  For much of my raiding career, as the only warden and often one of a small number of druids, I was posting numbers like no others.  As the guild's composition has changed, there are a lot more druids on our raids and I rarely have the overwealming numbers any more.  No healing class can stack their specialties, so I'm not too upset by that.As I touched on in my past post, the defensive differentiation between the two druids is very weak.  Other than more resists, we don't offer much over furies and for many targets, the temporary mitigation from porc is more attractive.  As I'm supposed to be defensive and they offensive, I would love to see stronger defense from us and stronger offensive buffs from them.My guild has also done raids without any druids (having a few number of druids, it was inevitable) and done perfectly fine.  Of the three subclasses, we (druids) have the absense least strongly felt.  Missing a cleric or a shaman, your HP and mitigation tanks.  Missing a druid, your resists are a bit lower and you might end up taking an extra 10~20% from magic, which is less than half of the output of most mobs anyway.  (I'm ignoring the shared mit/hp buffs here.)  If avoidance became stronger versus orange mobs and mobs made more extensive use of magic with mixed types, it would do a lot for making us more attractive.</span></span></div>

[Kaleco]

<div></div><div>For Mods:</div><div>This would be very good thread to have stickied as it provides a clear and concise overview of some current issues with Wardens. Perhaps even better is the fact that the OP seems to be committed to seeing this thread updated. He also seems to have genuine interest in informing and helping the Warden community.</div><div> </div><div>As a new Warden (adopted from my father in law at Level 64) I have found this thread very useful just as information on the class I am fresh to.</div><div> </div><div>Edit: Spelling :/</div><p>Message Edited by Kaleco on <span class="date_text">03-30-2006</span><span class="time_text">12:29 PM</span></p>

[Formangenavn]

<div>I second that, again. :smileyvery-happy:</div>

[iceriven2]

<div></div>latest update on test has adressed the evac issue

[Formangenavn]

<div>Jupp, and I would just like to say that if evac was not brought up in this post I do not think anything would have been doen to it. I am sure SOE is trying some small changes to satisfy som of us, but it only shows that bringing these issues up in an orderly way does work.</div><div> </div><div>1 done and 10 to go SOE. Pick up the pace plz?</div>

[Barand]

yeah i feel exactly the same <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />this change mean more : we will not change other skill here is a little things to make you happythere are lots of skill before evac that warden are not very happy with, i dont understand why they choose evac<div></div>

[Unmask]

<div></div>Well evac had a serious problem that affected a significant amount of players.  I suppose while they fixed it they decided to reduce the casting time for wardens and SKs.  I don't think they did this <strong>instead</strong> of looking at other warden issues but rather our evac got fixed <strong>despite</strong> being a warden spell. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Touryn]

<div></div><div><span><blockquote><hr>iceriven2 wrote:latest update on test has adressed the evac issue<hr></blockquote>Probably the last spell I wanted them to look at, but it is an improvement.  The existance of this change is going on the board; however, I will not strike it until it makes its way to live.I'm considering the following changes:<b>Removal of Spike Damage Item</b></span><blockquote>I don't agree with this one.  Many people, both inside the class and outside, disagree with this one.  If there is any flaw in our spike damage, it is probably due to other factors (such as buffs) and not our healing.  Unless someone can offer evidence to the contrary, I'm probably going to strike this item.</blockquote><b>Alternate Advance</b><blockquote>I'm strangely warming up to our AA lines.  While the stamina line is unquestionably the most powerful line in regards to raiding, we must not examine everything from this perspective.  There is the grind to 70 and those who don't raid to consider.  The strength and intelligence lines are well suited for those who solo.  The stamina and (possibly) agility lines are the best for raiders.  Those in groups will probably take intelligence and stamina.Unless someone has objection, I think the focus should move to more concrete improvements for the line:<ul><li>I don't believe anyone (Fury or Warden) has come out and defended our wisdom line.</li><li>As the core of warden dps is chain nuking, does the strength line offer a strong enough increase in melee dps to be useful?  Things like haste (from the first attack) are ineffective if the weapon is already faster than your nukes.  To stop nuking would likely decrease dps more than the haste would help.</li><li>I'm not convinced by the decrease to heal duration on the agility line.  Most of our spells have durations tied to their recast and to decrease one without decreasing the other doesn't improve us measurably.  Without turning into a wish list, does anyone feel that a reduction in recast should be added (possibly at the expense of the duration)?</li></ul></blockquote><b>Buffing</b><blockquote>As I've made known, this is my pet concern.  I'm going to break it down into a couple parts:<ul><li><b>Warden vs. Fury (Raid perspective).</b>  The buffing differences between all the priest classes are rather minor, but due to stacking issues (on the bug list in part), you are generally limited to one from each archetype.  Versus our counterpart, the Fury, our advantage is rather slim.  We offer agility (likely capped on the tank), resists (in the form of Wisdom buffs, primarily, but also easy to cap), and a weak mana feed.  The Fury offers an in-combat health regen (insignificant), intelligence (useless in the MT group), and porcupine.  As raid mobs are likely orange and yellow, duststorm does not enter the picture here.  Outside of magic-heavy battles (which are not the majority), we have no utility to match the effectiveness of porcupine, limited as it may be.I would personally like to see wardens become more defensive in the buff set and furies become more offensive, solidifying roles in MT vs. DPS groups.  Such a proposal, even if shared by other wardens, would require feedback from the Furies, so stop chasing them off.</li><li><b>Group Effectiveness.</b>  As we have some of the highest sustained healing numbers, I'm not sure how well we can argue for a stronger set of buffs.  However, we do lack debuffs.  Debuffs serve as a sort of buff: decreasing mob DPS is functionality equivalent to increasing mitigation; decreasing mob mitigation is functionality equivalent to increasing group DPS.  As we lack any effective debuffs (other than the elemental debuff, which is very limited in scope), we could argue with a strengthening of our buff lines.  One could counter such an argument with discussions about druid DPS.When you compare our buffs with other classes, we may offer less health and/or mitigation (the core components necessary for experience groups), but we do have duststorm, which is effective in most group situations.</li><li><b>Solo Effectiveness.</b>  Priests aren't really intended to be solo classes, but last I tried, I could solo rather effectively.  I'm not sure what asking for stronger buffing in the solo arena would gain us other than a larger lead over the other priests and some inevietable nerfs.</li></ul></blockquote></div>

[Barand]

<span><b></b></span><span><b>Removal of Spike Damage Item</b></span><blockquote>I don't agree with this one.  Many people, both inside the class and outside, disagree with this one.  If there is any flaw in our spike damage, it is probably due to other factors (such as buffs) and not our healing.  Unless someone can offer evidence to the contrary, I'm probably going to strike this item.Agree, fury doesn't have any issue with spike damage (in fact as much as other priest, i don't know a priest that can manage 5 spike in a row <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> )and they heal the same way than us. We just need some joker like back into the fray (and NOOO nature respite is not a joker its a die again card ! )</blockquote><blockquote></blockquote><div></div>

[Unmask]

<div></div><blockquote><p></p><hr>Touryn wrote:<span>I'm considering the following changes:<b>Removal of Spike Damage Item</b></span><blockquote><p>I don't agree with this one.  Many people, both inside the class and outside, disagree with this one.  If there is any flaw in our spike damage, it is probably due to other factors (such as buffs) and not our healing.  Unless someone can offer evidence to the contrary, I'm probably going to strike this item.</p></blockquote><p><font color="#ffff00">In solo/group situations I don't think we have any healing problem at all.  However I still think spike damage is a problem for wardens based on how I understand healer roles in a raiding perspective.  I don't think anyone can really question that the mechanics of wards and reactives are far better suited for keeping the MT alive against large bursts of damage than HoTs.  On the other hand our heals are quick, efficient and larger overall which is why we'll generally outparse the other healers (which is why I think these parses are somewhat misleading).  The question is whether these advantages are sufficient compensation, especially as we lack any meaningful debuffs.  A typical raid with 6 healers will definitely notice if none are shaman or clerics but how much will it really notice if none are druids?  </font></p><p><font color="#ffff00">My personal opinion is that we're missed the least which to me is a balance issue, though not necessarily a healing issue.</font></p><div><b>Alternate Advance</b></div><blockquote>I'm strangely warming up to our AA lines.  While the stamina line is unquestionably the most powerful line in regards to raiding, we must not examine everything from this perspective.  There is the grind to 70 and those who don't raid to consider.  The strength and intelligence lines are well suited for those who solo.  The stamina and (possibly) agility lines are the best for raiders.  Those in groups will probably take intelligence and stamina.Unless someone has objection, I think the focus should move to more concrete improvements for the line:<ul><li>I don't believe anyone (Fury or Warden) has come out and defended our wisdom line.</li><li>As the core of warden dps is chain nuking, does the strength line offer a strong enough increase in melee dps to be useful?  Things like haste (from the first attack) are ineffective if the weapon is already faster than your nukes.  To stop nuking would likely decrease dps more than the haste would help.</li><li>I'm not convinced by the decrease to heal duration on the agility line.  Most of our spells have durations tied to their recast and to decrease one without decreasing the other doesn't improve us measurably.  Without turning into a wish list, does anyone feel that a reduction in recast should be added (possibly at the expense of the duration)?</li></ul></blockquote><p><font color="#ffff00">Yes I think most of us agree with the STA line being the best for raiding (dispel, heal crits, anti-stun) but I think you're underestimating the INT line.  The last ability in the INT line does a small AE with each beneficial spell (e.g. heals).  I agree the AGI line is a stretch at best since the recast timers of the HoTs don't adjust with the reduction in the tick timers.  As far as the WIS line is concerned, a fury in my guild took it to the end and the self-rez has proved useful (think about raid zones with repops where a wipe can be really painful).</font></p><div><b>Buffing</b></div><blockquote>As I've made known, this is my pet concern.  I'm going to break it down into a couple parts:<ul><li><b>Warden vs. Fury (Raid perspective).</b>  The buffing differences between all the priest classes are rather minor, but due to stacking issues (on the bug list in part), you are generally limited to one from each archetype.  Versus our counterpart, the Fury, our advantage is rather slim.  We offer agility (likely capped on the tank), resists (in the form of Wisdom buffs, primarily, but also easy to cap), and a weak mana feed.  The Fury offers an in-combat health regen (insignificant), intelligence (useless in the MT group), and porcupine.  As raid mobs are likely orange and yellow, duststorm does not enter the picture here.  Outside of magic-heavy battles (which are not the majority), we have no utility to match the effectiveness of porcupine, limited as it may be.I would personally like to see wardens become more defensive in the buff set and furies become more offensive, solidifying roles in MT vs. DPS groups.  Such a proposal, even if shared by other wardens, would require feedback from the Furies, so stop chasing them off.</li><li><b>Group Effectiveness.</b>  As we have some of the highest sustained healing numbers, I'm not sure how well we can argue for a stronger set of buffs.  However, we do lack debuffs.  Debuffs serve as a sort of buff: decreasing mob DPS is functionality equivalent to increasing mitigation; decreasing mob mitigation is functionality equivalent to increasing group DPS.  As we lack any effective debuffs (other than the elemental debuff, which is very limited in scope), we could argue with a strengthening of our buff lines.  One could counter such an argument with discussions about druid DPS.When you compare our buffs with other classes, we may offer less health and/or mitigation (the core components necessary for experience groups), but we do have duststorm, which is effective in most group situations.</li><li><b>Solo Effectiveness.</b>  Priests aren't really intended to be solo classes, but last I tried, I could solo rather effectively.  I'm not sure what asking for stronger buffing in the solo arena would gain us other than a larger lead over the other priests and some inevietable nerfs.</li></ul></blockquote><p><font color="#ffff00">I really don't see the buffing differences being minor between all priest classes - we buff all resists fairly well and elemental very well, but our lack of mit/HP buffs really makes druids an optional class on many encounters.  And vs furies our buffing differences depend substantially on the class doing the tanking.</font></p><hr></blockquote>

[mikemcmodmi]

<div></div><div><p>Touryn wrote:</p><p><font color="#ffff00">In solo/group situations I don't think we have any healing problem at all.  However I still think spike damage is a problem for wardens based on how I understand healer roles in a raiding perspective.  I don't think anyone can really question that the mechanics of wards and reactives are far better suited for keeping the MT alive against large bursts of damage than HoTs.  On the other hand our heals are quick, efficient and larger overall which is why we'll generally outparse the other healers (which is why I think these parses are somewhat misleading).  The question is whether these advantages are sufficient compensation, especially as we lack any meaningful debuffs.  A typical raid with 6 healers will definitely notice if none are shaman or clerics but how much will it really notice if none are druids?  </font></p><p><font color="#ffff00">My personal opinion is that we're missed the least which to me is a balance issue, though not necessarily a healing issue.</font></p><p><font color="#ffffff">I agree for the most part, but disagree on the severity.  Druids are definietly needed for raids and I can see the difference between a group of healers with a druid and without when we setup 2 tanking.  1 shaman and 2 clerics < 1 shaman, 1 cleric and a druid.  It might be my ego talking but I cant imagine a raid surviving on a harder mob without a druid.  </font></p><p><font color="#ffffff">Agreed about spike damage.  It's the lack of hp buffs leaving us a smaller margin of error when taking a spike of damage.  It's not the damage itself because druids are best at healing with our quick cast heals.  </font></p><p><font color="#ffff00">I really don't see the buffing differences being minor between all priest classes - we buff all resists fairly well and elemental very well, but our lack of mit/HP buffs really makes druids an optional class on many encounters.  And vs furies our buffing differences depend substantially on the class doing the tanking.</font></p><p><font color="#ffffff">Well sort of disagree here again.  Wardens have a small marginal advantage in G1 with how our class is built.  However, don't discount the advantage of having a Fury for int in G1 for MT.  All procs work off intelligence and intelligence can help the tank hold aggro.  That being said our single target buff is better for higher lvled mobs becaues it adds pierce, slash, crush letting the tank hit more accurately instead of a proc that lets the tank swing and miss very often <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  Either way it's more of the player then class which shouldn't be right if we're the defensive variant of the druid.  </font></p><p>My suggestion, just to give it a bump, is to give us a spell shield.  Sort of like stoneskin for templars and dirges but it only absorbs magical attacks.  This would get rid of all the 'black pit' issues of duststorm and resist caps... especially boss mobs with that 50% resist cap.  No requiem of reflection either so they don't have to nurf it because of the reflect potentially being overpowered.  Just a spell shield.  This would make our class distinctive, desirable and have an ability that's called out for besides healing.</p></div><p>Message Edited by mikemcmodmike on <span class="date_text">04-02-2006</span><span class="time_text">12:36 AM</span></p>

[Touryn]

<div></div><div></div><div><span><blockquote><hr>Unmasked wrote:<font color="#ffff00">In solo/group situations I don't think we have any healing problem at all.  However I still think spike damage is a problem for wardens based on how I understand healer roles in a raiding perspective.  I don't think anyone can really question that the mechanics of wards and reactives are far better suited for keeping the MT alive against large bursts of damage than HoTs.  On the other hand our heals are quick, efficient and larger overall which is why we'll generally outparse the other healers (which is why I think these parses are somewhat misleading).  The question is whether these advantages are sufficient compensation, especially as we lack any meaningful debuffs.  A typical raid with 6 healers will definitely notice if none are shaman or clerics but how much will it really notice if none are druids?  </font><p><font color="#ffff00">My personal opinion is that we're missed the least which to me is a balance issue, though not necessarily a healing issue.</font></p><blockquote><hr width="100%" size="2"></blockquote></blockquote>You might be able to argue that the first mystic/templar is more useful than the first warden, but what about the second or third?  Due to intential stacking rules, only one person can be casting each specialty heal.  Beyond the specialty heals, we have the advantage in parse numbers.  This is important, as the harder raid mobs will chew through wards like candy and overwealm the size of a reactive, leaving direct heals as the primary source of healing.  Our direct heals are solid on raids and are one of the reasons we can parse so high.  From the healing perspective, you would want one mysic, one templar, and then the rest wardens.  Maybe a fury or two to get the tank out of the orange before the big healing makes it.Besides, I'm not sure what you could do to healing without overpowering us and bringing on the nerfs.  Highest demonstrated healing/second and you want to improve it?  If anything, as I said, it is a buffing issue.<blockquote><blockquote><hr width="100%" size="2"></blockquote><font color="#ffff00">Yes I think most of us agree with the STA line being the best for raiding (dispel, heal crits, anti-stun) but I think you're underestimating the INT line.  The last ability in the INT line does a small AE with each beneficial spell (e.g. heals).  I agree the AGI line is a stretch at best since the recast timers of the HoTs don't adjust with the reduction in the tick timers.  As far as the WIS line is concerned, a fury in my guild took it to the end and the self-rez has proved useful (think about raid zones with repops where a wipe can be really painful).</font><blockquote><hr width="100%" size="2"></blockquote></blockquote>My concern with an AE proc on heal is when we have our enchanters playing crowd control.  The last thing you want to do is to heal the tank and have all the mobs that were peacefully mezzed start jumping in again, but I could be misinterpretting what's going on here.The self-rez is a bit of a stretch also.  We have generally have about two monks and a necro or two ready to feign death with feathers each fight.  While less reliable than a self-rez upon button press, it doesn't require the healers (or anyone else) to give up considerable AA utility to get it (assuming there was useful AA outside of the stam line).The important part is that while raiders have the top line pretty clearly painted, we are still argueing over which is the best second and noone seems to have a strong opinion.  It's not that there several are choices just as good to argue over, but that the other lines aren't nearly as valuable.<blockquote><blockquote><hr width="100%" size="2"><b></b></blockquote><p><font color="#ffff00">I really don't see the buffing differences being minor between all priest classes - we buff all resists fairly well and elemental very well, but our lack of mit/HP buffs really makes druids an optional class on many encounters.  And vs furies our buffing differences depend substantially on the class doing the tanking.</font></p><blockquote><hr></blockquote></blockquote>Other than maybe the templar with their single-target wisdom buff (probably cast on themselves anyway), we have, by far, the highest wisdom buffing.  Wisdom (until capped), directly transfers to resists.  For me, this is roughly on the order of ~700 with, of course, the +500 to power (which tanks seem to have a severe shortage of for some reason).  So while most priests have their +1k to two/three resists, we have that plus another +700 to all of them.  No other priests (other than fury to a limited extent and templars a bit stronger, but still far less than us) have a global increase to resists.</span><span>To give up the resists probably won't be the best idea (some people seem to swear by them and some fights need them), but I do agree we are the class least missed from the MT group.  Probably the best thing for the developers to do is to make our resist buff stronger and actually make it mean something.  9 times out of 10, resists are either unncessary for the fight, the tank has the necessary ones capped, or the mob just ignores them.While mit and hp are more attractive, they do have their disadvantages.  You can cap mit just like you can cap resists (I've yet to see this happen, but I imagine top tier raiding guilds probably have) and if our only advantage is hp, we would be no different than templars and shamen with their hp buffs.  The real question is if we want something flashy (like a proc, spell effect, etc.) or something subtle (more hp, more mit, etc.).  Potentially, we could argue that the priest buffing, in general, is inappropriate for the various classes (e.g. regen classes should have the hp buffs), but I'm sure that will just lead to hard feelings.Vs. Furies and Vs. Everyone else are two different problems.  Due to stacking, our primary competition for MT slots are furies and non-priests.  You have the tank, templar, mystic and then three slots.  Are we worth the fourth slot?  In many cases, the fury is better than us.  Considering we are supposed to be the defensive druid, that just doesn't seem right.  The other issue is one of general utility and ego.  Even if our buffs are an order of magnitude worse than clerics and shamen (which would be a stretch), we still get the MT slot if we are better than everyone else.  It's just that we don't feel as useful in that situation and our absense is less of a consequence on the success of the raid.  We want to be useful and feel needed, which is why we are argueing about things other than DPS.The developers seem to have it in their heads that we are balanced, so anything gained will need to be at the cost of something else, unless you can prove we aren't balanced (through math and parses).Edit: Cleared up the healing section to try to remove confusion (I never said our direct heals were broken).  Added some points about vs. furies.</span></div><p>Message Edited by Touryn on <span class="date_text">04-02-2006</span><span class="time_text">03:44 PM</span></p>

[Rappy]

Our direct heals are not broken.  If this is the main focus in the spike damage problem on your post it should not be.  Ryala is correct in suggesting the marquee spells are the main reason why spike is a problem for us.<div></div>

[Touryn]

<div></div><div><span><blockquote><hr>Rappy wrote:Our direct heals are not broken.  If this is the main focus in the spike damage problem on your post it should not be.  Ryala is correct in suggesting the marquee spells are the main reason why spike is a problem for us.<div></div><hr></blockquote>I never said our direct heals are broken, in fact, my recent post strongly implied the exact opposite.  This is one reason why I am considering striking that section.  I am only asking if anyone has a strong opinion regarding our heals (specifically) should prevent me from striking this section from the compilation.  It only distracts attention from bigger problems, such as buffing and broken spells.Unless someone has compiled a history of situations where another class could solo heal something they (as a Warden) could not, at a comparible level with comparible spell quality and equipment (this last part is important), I'm probably going to strike it.  Having both healers in the group and one 'sitting out' (from the healing perspective) would be a decent way to isolate healing from the buff and marquee situation.  Considering we've had tanks come in and called Wardens the best HoF solo healer (which implies an ability to handle large spikes), I don't want to base a point entirely on a minority position with anecdotal evidence.</span></div>

[mikemcmodmi]

<div></div><div></div><div></div><p>Yes, agree take it out.  From a developer's standpoint we just look silly if we say that spike damage is our problem imo.  Our heals when you add up the ticks equal the shaman's heals, are recast more often, and we can cast them quicker.  We should be the best class at spike damage in the game.  Saying we need help with spike damage is missing the point, the point is damage spikes are more perilous to us because of the lack of hp buffs so there's less margin or error.  If we don't get hp buffs, and I agree we probably shouldn't and leave that to clerics and shamans, then what we actually need is improved buffs.</p><p>IMO, duststorm has to go.  From what I've heard, we're the only healer that can solo heal HoF because the stun is overpowered in grouping situations but it's too situational.  It has no solo or raid utility so strip it so we aren't overpowered and give us better buffs that are useful through soloing, grouping and raiding.  Spellshield please <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>There are many reasons why I believe we should get a spellshield:  1.  For one class variety.  Furies for mitigation and Wardens for magical attacks.  2.  With some mob's attacks only 50% resistable no matter what your resist is at, adding more resists simply wouldn't be strong enough to merit losing duststorm.  3.  We'd have a speciality where we excelled.  4.  More depth to raiding strategy and changing up who goes in what group.</p><p>Mayi - LoC</p><p>Message Edited by mikemcmodmike on <span class="date_text">04-02-2006</span><span class="time_text">01:37 PM</span></p>

[Unmask]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>mikemcmodmike wrote:<div></div><div><p><font color="#ffffff">I agree for the most part, but disagree on the severity.  Druids are definietly needed for raids and I can see the difference between a group of healers with a druid and without when we setup 2 tanking.  1 shaman and 2 clerics < 1 shaman, 1 cleric and a druid.  It might be my ego talking but I cant imagine a raid surviving on a harder mob without a druid.  </font></p><p><font color="#ffff00">Not all encounters require 3 healers in MT group but which is a better setup, 1 shaman/2 clerics or 2 shaman/1 cleric or 2 druids and a shaman/cleric?</font></p><p><font color="#ffffff">Well sort of disagree here again.  Wardens have a small marginal advantage in G1 with how our class is built.  However, don't discount the advantage of having a Fury for int in G1 for MT.  All procs work off intelligence and intelligence can help the tank hold aggro.</font></p><p><font color="#ffff00">Well that was my point, especially if your tank is a crusader.</font></p><p><font color="#ffffff">That being said our single target buff is better for higher lvled mobs becaues it adds pierce, slash, crush letting the tank hit more accurately instead of a proc that lets the tank swing and miss very often <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  Either way it's more of the player then class which shouldn't be right if we're the defensive variant of the druid.  </font></p><p><font color="#ffff00">If the MT's taunts aren't enough to grab agro then the raid has problems.  And regardless, the MT's damage is usually too low low to matter when so many other players in the raid have triple the dps or more.  I prefer giving the buff to a dps class but that's usually not an option. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></font></p></div><hr></blockquote>

[Unmask]

<div></div><blockquote><p></p><hr>Touryn wrote:<p><span>You might be able to argue that the first mystic/templar is more useful than the first warden, but what about the second or third?  Due to intential stacking rules, only one person can be casting each specialty heal.</span></p><p><span><font color="#ffff00">Actually the 2nd druid is less useful than the the others in this sense.  The specialty heals don't stack, but if a reactive/ward uses up all its healing potential early, another cleric/shaman can throw one on even if the first recast timer is still up.  The 2nd druid has absolutely no use for his specialty heal in any circumstance.  I assume you mean defiler not mystic. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></font></span></p><p><span>Besides, I'm not sure what you could do to healing without overpowering us and bringing on the nerfs.  Highest demonstrated healing/second and you want to improve it?  If anything, as I said, it is a buffing issue.</span></p><p><span><font color="#ffff00">Like I said, healing parses are highly misleading, especially with wards not parsing at all.  What would you rather cast, a 2k heal on the MT or a 500 heal on everyone in the group?  You'll parse higher with the latter but how meaningful is that?  The problem with HoTs is that they still don't scale.  I'm not saying our healing is broken at all but I'm saying that our role is different than the cleric/shaman and that its easier for a shaman/cleric to fill our role than vice versa.  The added advantage that clerics/shaman have with spike damage is how their group specialties work.  So a question I've always wondered about is if the group HoT had the same machanics as the group ward/reactive, how much an overall healing nerf we could accept (eg instead of 6 ticks on 6 players in the group, a total of X ticks - with a max of 6 in any tick - on whoever gets damaged).  It's just a thought but what would you accept for X?</font></span><span></p></blockquote><blockquote><p>My concern with an AE proc on heal is when we have our enchanters playing crowd control.  The last thing you want to do is to heal the tank and have all the mobs that were peacefully mezzed start jumping in again, but I could be misinterpretting what's going on here.</p><div><font color="#ffff00">Someone may need to correct me but I always thought encounter AEs don't break mez and afaik I never broke one with our ae root or ae dd.</font>The self-rez is a bit of a stretch also.  We have generally have about two monks and a necro or two ready to feign death with feathers each fight.  While less reliable than a self-rez upon button press, it doesn't require the healers (or anyone else) to give up considerable AA utility to get it (assuming there was useful AA outside of the stam line).</div><div><font color="#ffff00">FD doesn't give you immunity to death.  We have SKs/brawlers/necros but we can still wipe even if they FD.</font></div><div> </div><div>Other than maybe the templar with their single-target wisdom buff (probably cast on themselves anyway), we have, by far, the highest wisdom buffing.  Wisdom (until capped), directly transfers to resists.  For me, this is roughly on the order of ~700 with, of course, the +500 to power (which tanks seem to have a severe shortage of for some reason).  So while most priests have their +1k to two/three resists, we have that plus another +700 to all of them.  No other priests (other than fury to a limited extent and templars a bit stronger, but still far less than us) have a global increase to resists.</div><p><font color="#ffff00">While resists are always good there is a diminishing return here since the MT doesn't need all resists but just 1 or 2 and probably has resist gear to get any resist near the cap even without our buff.  Our added resists gives him added flexibility here but so does any other buff.  I think any MT would want more mit/HP except maybe in a few situations.</font></span></p></blockquote><blockquote><p><span>To give up the resists probably won't be the best idea (some people seem to swear by them and some fights need them), but I do agree we are the class least missed from the MT group.  Probably the best thing for the developers to do is to make our resist buff stronger and actually make it mean something.  9 times out of 10, resists are either unncessary for the fight, the tank has the necessary ones capped, or the mob just ignores them.</span></p><p><span><font color="#ffff00">Exactly.  It's difficult to see a solution here though without raising the resist cap or changing how yellow/orange mobs work.  This is probably where our marquee spells should step in but as you say that don't.  <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></font></span><span>While mit and hp are more attractive, they do have their disadvantages.  You can cap mit just like you can cap resists (I've yet to see this happen, but I imagine top tier raiding guilds probably have) and if our only advantage is hp, we would be no different than templars and shamen with their hp buffs.</span></p><p><span><font color="#ffff00">Defilers buff raw hp so they will almost always be in the MT group.  That's the sort of advantage each class should have - a buff which is uncapped - and that's exactly what's missing in the game.  I think if the devs adress that one point a lot of people, not just us, would be happier.</font></span></p><p><span>The real question is if we want something flashy (like a proc, spell effect, etc.) or something subtle (more hp, more mit, etc.).  Potentially, we could argue that the priest buffing, in general, is inappropriate for the various classes (e.g. regen classes should have the hp buffs), but I'm sure that will just lead to hard feelings.</span></p><span></span></blockquote><blockquote><span><p><font color="#ffff00">I don't think a small group in combat power regen is out of line considering we have a solo version at I think level 35.  It's been discussed before and it fits our class well.</font></span></p><hr></blockquote>

[Touryn]

<div></div><div><span><blockquote><hr>Unmasked wrote:<blockquote><hr>Touryn wrote:<p><span>You might be able to argue that the first mystic/templar is more useful than the first warden, but what about the second or third?  Due to intential stacking rules, only one person can be casting each specialty heal.</span></p><p><span><font color="#ffff00">Actually the 2nd druid is less useful than the the others in this sense.  The specialty heals don't stack, but if a reactive/ward uses up all its healing potential early, another cleric/shaman can throw one on even if the first recast timer is still up.  The 2nd druid has absolutely no use for his specialty heal in any circumstance.  I assume you mean defiler not mystic. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></font></span></p><p><span>Besides, I'm not sure what you could do to healing without overpowering us and bringing on the nerfs.  Highest demonstrated healing/second and you want to improve it?  If anything, as I said, it is a buffing issue.</span></p><p><span><font color="#ffff00">Like I said, healing parses are highly misleading, especially with wards not parsing at all.  What would you rather cast, a 2k heal on the MT or a 500 heal on everyone in the group?  You'll parse higher with the latter but how meaningful is that?  The problem with HoTs is that they still don't scale.  I'm not saying our healing is broken at all but I'm saying that our role is different than the cleric/shaman and that its easier for a shaman/cleric to fill our role than vice versa.  The added advantage that clerics/shaman have with spike damage is how their group specialties work.  So a question I've always wondered about is if the group HoT had the same machanics as the group ward/reactive, how much an overall healing nerf we could accept (eg instead of 6 ticks on 6 players in the group, a total of X ticks - with a max of 6 in any tick - on whoever gets damaged).  It's just a thought but what would you accept for X?</font></span></p><p><span></span></p><hr width="100%" size="2"></blockquote><p><span></span></p></blockquote>Guess I was being a bit overentuastic.  I mentioned the specialties not stacking, but missed the fact that the cleric/shamen spells can end before their recast time and be recast by another.  From the standpoint of direct heals only, we have the advantage, but our constant duration specialty makes us fall behind again.   Still, you want at least one warden on the raid.</span><span><blockquote><p><span></span><span></span></p></blockquote></span><span><blockquote><blockquote><hr width="100%" size="2">My concern with an AE proc on heal is when we have our enchanters playing crowd control.  The last thing you want to do is to heal the tank and have all the mobs that were peacefully mezzed start jumping in again, but I could be misinterpretting what's going on here.<div><font color="#ffff00">Someone may need to correct me but I always thought encounter AEs don't break mez and afaik I never broke one with our ae root or ae dd.</font><hr width="100%" size="2"></div></blockquote></blockquote><div>AoEs don't break single target mezzes but will break encounter targetted mezzes.  Our enchanters generally do the AoE mezzes to drop mob DPS as fast as possible and then the single target mezzes to allow AoEs.  Considering the pull is the most vital time, I would rather not risk breaking it.  Roots and debuffs will not break any mezz, only damage will.In any case, if you haven't problem with it, then I guess the argument is only academic.  I've been looking for the next line to follow, guess this is as good as any other.</div><blockquote><blockquote><div><hr width="100%" size="2">The self-rez is a bit of a stretch also.  We have generally have about two monks and a necro or two ready to feign death with feathers each fight.  While less reliable than a self-rez upon button press, it doesn't require the healers (or anyone else) to give up considerable AA utility to get it (assuming there was useful AA outside of the stam line).</div><div><font color="#ffff00">FD doesn't give you immunity to death.  We have SKs/brawlers/necros but we can still wipe even if they FD.</font><hr width="100%" size="2"></div></blockquote></blockquote><div> I mentioned it being less reliable, but it can be used more frequently than once every 15 minutes.  You could have all your druids take it, but assuming the duration effect on the agility line is improved to effect recast also, would you want them to turn down the heal crit or recast/duration decrease without other improvements to the line?</div></span><span><blockquote><blockquote><div><hr width="100%" size="2"></div><div>Other than maybe the templar with their single-target wisdom buff (probably cast on themselves anyway), we have, by far, the highest wisdom buffing.  Wisdom (until capped), directly transfers to resists.  For me, this is roughly on the order of ~700 with, of course, the +500 to power (which tanks seem to have a severe shortage of for some reason).  So while most priests have their +1k to two/three resists, we have that plus another +700 to all of them.  No other priests (other than fury to a limited extent and templars a bit stronger, but still far less than us) have a global increase to resists.</div><p><font color="#ffff00">While resists are always good there is a diminishing return here since the MT doesn't need all resists but just 1 or 2 and probably has resist gear to get any resist near the cap even without our buff.  Our added resists gives him added flexibility here but so does any other buff.  I think any MT would want more mit/HP except maybe in a few situations.</font></p></blockquote><blockquote><p><span>To give up the resists probably won't be the best idea (some people seem to swear by them and some fights need them), but I do agree we are the class least missed from the MT group.  Probably the best thing for the developers to do is to make our resist buff stronger and actually make it mean something.  9 times out of 10, resists are either unncessary for the fight, the tank has the necessary ones capped, or the mob just ignores them.</span></p><p><span><font color="#ffff00">Exactly.  It's difficult to see a solution here though without raising the resist cap or changing how yellow/orange mobs work.  This is probably where our marquee spells should step in but as you say that don't.  <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></font></span></p></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote><p><span></span></p><blockquote><p><span>While mit and hp are more attractive, they do have their disadvantages.  You can cap mit just like you can cap resists (I've yet to see this happen, but I imagine top tier raiding guilds probably have) and if our only advantage is hp, we would be no different than templars and shamen with their hp buffs.</span></p><p><span><font color="#ffff00">Defilers buff raw hp so they will almost always be in the MT group.  That's the sort of advantage each class should have - a buff which is uncapped - and that's exactly what's missing in the game.  I think if the devs adress that one point a lot of people, not just us, would be happier.</font></span></p><p><span></span></p><hr width="100%" size="2"></blockquote></blockquote><p><span>The problem right now is that there aren't three things without caps.  SOE has even gone through and slapped a cap on almost everything that lacked one this past LU.  It will probably be easier to ask for a cap on health, to finish it off, than to ask for things to be uncapped.  This is going to need a change to the mechanics of their combat system and the last time that happened, we ended up with our current situation.</span></p><blockquote><blockquote><p><span></span></p><hr width="100%" size="2"><span>The real question is if we want something flashy (like a proc, spell effect, etc.) or something subtle (more hp, more mit, etc.).  Potentially, we could argue that the priest buffing, in general, is inappropriate for the various classes (e.g. regen classes should have the hp buffs), but I'm sure that will just lead to hard feelings.</span><span></span></blockquote><blockquote><span><p><font color="#ffff00">I don't think a small group in combat power regen is out of line considering we have a solo version at I think level 35.  It's been discussed before and it fits our class well.</font></p></span><p></p></blockquote><hr></blockquote>I'm sure that will go ever well with the enchanters and bards, but if that is the best we can do, it's the best we can do.  However, even this has a cap now.</span></div>

[mikemcmodmi]

<div></div><div>nm</div><p>Message Edited by mikemcmodmike on <span class="date_text">04-02-2006</span><span class="time_text">09:38 PM</span></p><p>Message Edited by mikemcmodmike on <span class="date_text">04-02-2006</span><span class="time_text">09:38 PM</span></p>

[Sorano]

<div></div><p>Actually I would settle for them giving us a 1K single target physical mitagation buff attached to our power/wis line. That would give us a very valuable buff to bring to the MT group. Furys could get haste or some other dps enhancing buff on their line, which would help separate the druid classes into defensive and offensive.</p>

[quetzaqotl]

<div></div><div></div><div></div><blockquote><hr>Sorano wrote:<div></div><p>Actually I would settle for them giving us a 1K single target physical mitagation buff attached to our power/wis line. That would give us a very valuable buff to bring to the MT group. Furys could get haste or some other dps enhancing buff on their line, which would help separate the druid classes into defensive and offensive.</p><hr></blockquote><p>Hmm giving wardens 1k mitig buff would kick furies out of the mt group forever, as for raids our only use in the mt group is porcupine/urchin porc at master 1 gives 1600 mitig and stuns us and it only lasts for 36 secs so 1000 mitig would be a little bit much.</p><p>Sorry if this is taken as a troll post or anything, but the idea of a 1k permanent mitig buff seems a bit much.</p><p>Both druids are not really that needed in the mt group most of the times, a fix to that making both druids always a viable choice in the mt group would be nice.</p><p>My guilds mt ALWAYS (or at least 99%) includes: mt=guardian dirge coercer mystic templar .......druid/sk/pally/defiler/whatever</p><p>Message Edited by quetzaqotl on <span class="date_text">04-03-2006</span><span class="time_text">08:43 AM</span></p>

[Touryn]

<div><span><blockquote><hr>quetzaqotl wrote:<div></div><div></div><div></div><p>Hmm giving wardens 1k mitig buff would kick furies out of the mt group forever, as for raids our only use in the mt group is porcupine/urchin porc at master 1 gives 1600 mitig and stuns us and it only lasts for 36 secs so 1000 mitig would be a little bit much.</p><p>Sorry if this is taken as a troll post or anything, but the idea of a 1k permanent mitig buff seems a bit much.</p><p>Both druids are not really that needed in the mt group most of the times, a fix to that making both druids always a viable choice in the mt group would be nice.</p><p>My guilds mt ALWAYS (or at least 99%) includes: mt=guardian dirge coercer mystic templar .......druid/sk/pally/defiler/whatever</p><p>Message Edited by quetzaqotl on <span class="date_text">04-03-2006</span><span class="time_text">08:43 AM</span></p><hr></blockquote>I don't think anyone has claimed that Furies are the end-all for the main tank group, only that in many (if not a majority of) circumstances, they are just better suited than a warden for MT groups in the current state of the game.I, personally, would like to see the druids improve, but to different areas.  Wardens become comparible to clerics/shamen in the realm of defensive buffing; Furies become comparible to bards/whoever-else in the realm of offensive buffing.  Each could serve in place of the other, just not effectively, but raids would actually <i>need</i> both when tackling the harder content.  As it stands right now, you barely notice if you are missing a druid on a raid, but shamen and clerics are much more strongly felt.Balancing these changes shouldn't be to hard:  Drop the unbuffed fury DPS so that when the offensive buffs are up, it's back up to where it is now.  Drop duststorm from Wardens, but improve the defensive buff line so defensively we are just as effective as when its up.  Additionally, they need to look into fixing their combat system so that HP is no longer the end-all of buffing.  There can be no balance so long as one class has an advantage like that.</span></div>

[Rappy]

6 heal types.. 1 MT groupWhy is this issue so important?  If all healers were in MT group there would be no tank, rendering it no longer an MT group, unless of course the Templar is tanking?!?<div></div>

[quetzaqotl]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Rappy wrote:6 heal types.. 1 MT groupWhy is this issue so important?  If all healers were in MT group there would be no tank, rendering it no longer an MT group, unless of course the Templar is tanking?!?<div></div><hr></blockquote>Thats nonsens sorry, but there are 3 archtypes druids/clerics/shamans there are always and I say always 1 cleric and 1 shaman present in the mt grp on raids, druids are interchangeable.

[Sorano]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>quetzaqotl wrote:<div></div><div></div><div></div><blockquote><hr>Sorano wrote:<div></div><p>Actually I would settle for them giving us a 1K single target physical mitagation buff attached to our power/wis line. That would give us a very valuable buff to bring to the MT group. Furys could get haste or some other dps enhancing buff on their line, which would help separate the druid classes into defensive and offensive.</p><hr></blockquote><p>Hmm giving wardens 1k mitig buff would kick furies out of the mt group forever, as for raids our only use in the mt group is porcupine/urchin porc at master 1 gives 1600 mitig and stuns us and it only lasts for 36 secs so 1000 mitig would be a little bit much.</p><p>Sorry if this is taken as a troll post or anything, but the idea of a 1k permanent mitig buff seems a bit much.</p><p>Both druids are not really that needed in the mt group most of the times, a fix to that making both druids always a viable choice in the mt group would be nice.</p><p>My guilds mt ALWAYS (or at least 99%) includes: mt=guardian dirge coercer mystic templar .......druid/sk/pally/defiler/whatever</p><p>Message Edited by quetzaqotl on <span class="date_text">04-03-2006</span><span class="time_text">08:43 AM</span></p><hr></blockquote>Actually at lvl 70 Urchin increases all mitigation by 2200, so I think having warden increase physical mitigation by 1k at all times on a single target is reasonable and will make still leave both druids as a viable choice in the MT group.

[Rappy]

<div><span><blockquote><hr>quetzaqotl wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr>Rappy wrote:6 heal types.. 1 MT groupWhy is this issue so important?  If all healers were in MT group there would be no tank, rendering it no longer an MT group, unless of course the Templar is tanking?!?<div></div><hr></blockquote>Thats nonsens sorry, but there are 3 archtypes druids/clerics/shamans there are always and I say always 1 cleric and 1 shaman present in the mt grp on raids, druids are interchangeable.<hr></blockquote>No sorry its not.. I see on every single one of the SIX boards people complaining about why they arent always in the MT group and some crap about why they always should be... its plain and simple math.. they cant all be in there all the time.  But you were too simple to see the point of what i said werent  you</span></div>

[Touryn]

<div></div><div><span><blockquote><hr>Rappy wrote:<div><span>No sorry its not.. I see on every single one of the SIX boards people complaining about why they arent always in the MT group and some crap about why they always should be... its plain and simple math.. they cant all be in there all the time.  But you were too simple to see the point of what i said werent  you</span></div><hr></blockquote>Correct, all six want a slot in the MT group (I don't know why you wouldn't) and correct, not everyone can be in the group.  The goal is for the six classes to be equally desirable for the MT group and to be equally needed.  That just isn't the case.  Druids are the least necessary for the MT group and even within the other two classes, one subclass is generally more desirable than the other.  At best, if you wish to make it situational, the occurance of the situation should be 50/50.  Otherwise, unless there is some other utility which makes them equally desirable for the raid (such as debuffs), then their raid utility is lower than the other classes.  That is the essence of this entire line of discussion.I won't pretend to know about balance issues between templars and inquisitors, mystics and defilers and I don't really care.  All I care about is the utility (perceived and real) of the warden class versus furies and everyone else.  As it stands, it seems to be pretty weak.  For debuffs and buffs, we offer very little in comparison to the clerics and shamen.  All we have is raw healing, and much of that can be masked and replaced by having an extra priest (if even that).  Even versus furies, unless you encounter a mob where resist buffing becomes significant (not often), they can offer more to the tank than we can.Sure, there are wardens that have a comfortable spot in the MT group within their raiding guild, but can they seriously say they are as necessary and their loss would be felt as strongly as the cleric and shaman sitting beside them?  As what is supposed to be the defensive druid, I would like to become that: a defensive powerhouse.  Any time when I am not highly desired in the MT group, the defensive center of the raid, I feel that I have been let down as to the purpose of this class.  Sure, situations may arise that force me to take the hit to my ego and step aside, but they should be the exception and not the rule.I'm sure some Furies feel the need to be in the MT group; most probably would take some level of personal pride to be chosen for that purpose.  However, I would like to see a strong differentiation be established within the druid class: a defensive and offensive side as it was described long ago.</span></div>

[Rappy]

The elemental ward is a nice addition to help keep the other MT group healers alive on certain mobs.The two DI's do have a role in MT groups where the initial pre-debuff damage can be extreme and having even that second chance to keep the MT up can make a difference.  Even if it buys a second that is enough time for a BiTF or set of large DH's to land, for a further tic of regen, etc..There are reasons to have a warden there guys, above is just two GOOD examples.  Besides.. even if there were no examples, wardens have the largest contribution to a full burn DH of all the classes and as such filling the raid outside of MT group with Wardens is almost desirable.MT group isn't that glamourous.  Look on the bright side...  If the MT goes down its usually the healers in his group that are blamed <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><div></div>

[mikemcmodmi]

<div></div><p>The point is we're the defensive variant of the druid.  If we aren't in G1 where are our defensive buffs helping?  I think it's simple...</p><p>All healers are supposed to heal relatively equally.  We're the defensive variant of the druid and we're supposed to have stronger defensive buffs.  If we aren't in the MT group then that means, 1.  Our buffs are going to waste., plus brings up the bigger issue, 2.  Why aren't our buffs strong enough to merit always being in G1. </p><p>Since Furies are the offensive variant of the druid who are supposed to have more offensive buffs, the fact that people see it as a toss up between a Warden or Fury in G1 means that there's something wrong.  Namely in my eyes our buffs aren't powerful enough. </p><p>Think of it as the difference between Inquisators and Templars.  Anyone with thier head screwed on right prefers a Templar in G1 and Inquisators also get offensive buffs to compensate for this.  That's how it should be between Furies and Wardens.  Wardens should be the undisputed better druid to be in G1 and it should be obvious.  If it isn't then someting's wrong and our buff issues need to be addressed and corrected. </p><p>Atm our buffs are power, agi, a bit of magical resists, wisdom, sandstorm and a bit of hps.  Power really isn't a defensive buff.  66 agi isn't really a lot.  All our wisdom and resists buffs only translate into 703 to every stat with Master Aspect of the Hawk, A3 Protection of the Oak, A3 benediction of the wild.  Lastly there's sandstorm.  This buff adds 28 defense for raids at master but the power cost isn't economical.  I don't believe any wardens keep this up in raids.  We also add 321 to health with Master1 Essence of the Great Hawk, along with an additional 928 to heat and 1160 to cold.</p><p>Our trademark ability besides our wisdom buffs is supposed to be sandstorm.  This is the buff no one uses which is why I say it should be removed and replaced with a buff so that we're the defensive variant of the druid. </p><p>When the combat revamp was first done remember stuns worked on epics.  Having the stun work on epics would be awesome... but overpowered which is why they removed it.  That being said, our buffs were never reworked and rebalanced with other healers after stuns stopped working on epics.  This has been the source of our problems ever since and is where you need to start to fix our buffs.</p>

[Touryn]

<div></div><div><span><blockquote><hr>Rappy wrote:The elemental ward is a nice addition to help keep the other MT group healers alive on certain mobs.<hr width="100%" size="2"></blockquote>Again, certain mobs.  Excluding that it requires a certain level of prediction (we live in a time of called AoEs, though), it falls under the category of resists not being all that useful.  A situational spell at best that doesn't fall under some sort of 50/50 category.<blockquote><hr width="100%" size="2">The two DI's do have a role in MT groups where the initial pre-debuff damage can be extreme and having even that second chance to keep the MT up can make a difference.  Even if it buys a second that is enough time for a BiTF or set of large DH's to land, for a further tic of regen, etc..<hr width="100%" size="2"></blockquote>If I'm not mistaken, don't other priests have the single target DI?  And don't tell me you would rather have the group DI over BiTF or any other lvl52 marquee spell.  Sure, it might be useful if someone has it and knows how to use it (which is uncommon), but its pretty much an 'anyone but me.'<blockquote><hr width="100%" size="2">There are reasons to have a warden there guys, above is just two GOOD examples.  Besides.. even if there were no examples, wardens have the largest contribution to a full burn DH of all the classes and as such filling the raid outside of MT group with Wardens is almost desirable.MT group isn't that glamourous.  Look on the bright side...  If the MT goes down its usually the healers in his group that are blamed <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><hr></blockquote>I don't know, we generally blame wipes on an overeager caster or bad luck on the spikes.  The second reason generally involves moving more mitigation into the MT group, which is never us.  Sure, if you min-max, you might find wardens to be the most effective off-group healers, but our lead is often swallowed up by the noise floor.  At best, these are examples of why to keep a warden in a raid but not really reasons to go looking for a warden.I, like every other priest, want a raid leader to say "Oh crap, we don't have a XXX" every time their class doesn't show up, be it buffing the tank, buffing DPS, or offering some sort of vital raid utility that just cannot be performed effectively by any other class.</span></div>

[Touryn]

<div></div>Before I call it a night, just want to announce that I've been planning some structural revisions to the list.  I'm considering merging the 'what works' and 'shortcomings' list into a single list that describes the current condition of each type of play style.  I will need input from people who play in the various styles, especially those below certain levels (like lvl45 for duststorm).  The tenative list (terse):Solo - We are probably second only to Furies in this regard (in the realm of priests) and probably better than them before their 20's.  As this depends mainly on heals and DPS, we can probably balance other areas without strongly impacting this one.Small Groups - I don't know much about this, but considering we do well Solo and in Groups, we are probably also effective here.Groups (Easy/XP) - The amount of time spent healing is generally pretty minimal.  As we are pretty well off in the DPS department, we can contribute to a group outside of the realm of healing, making us rather desirable.  The real concern of a priest in these groups is dealing with unexpected adds, which requires the priest to be able to spin up into heal mode rapidly.  I don't feel we have much difficulty in that regard.Groups (Hard) - Considering we are probably the only priest that can solo heal HoF, we are probably pretty good here.  Of course, that ability is closely tied to sandstorm, which is a complaint in the raiding section.<div></div>Raiding - This is where the warden begins to drop off.  Individual healing and DPS becomes less significant than what you can offer to the tank (buffs), real DPS, or debuffs on the mob.  Other than resists, which are situational at best, we don't offer much in the other two categories compared to other priests.  Due to the effect of orange mobs on avoidance, sandstorm is pretty much useless.The spell deficiency list will probably remain as it is (specific issues with individual spells) and I'll expand 'bugs' to include major game-play related issues beyond obvious problems.  For example, I haven't heard anyone complain about fizzle rates in a while.  I think I'm more annoyed by the fact that other classes (such as DPS) pretty much never have to worry about them than the actual fizzling of a heal three times in-a-row after a massive spike during a raid.

[Rappy]

<div><span><blockquote><hr>Touryn wrote:<div></div><div><span><blockquote><hr>Rappy wrote:The elemental ward is a nice addition to help keep the other MT group healers alive on certain mobs.<hr width="100%" size="2"></blockquote>Again, certain mobs.  Excluding that it requires a certain level of prediction (we live in a time of called AoEs, though), it falls under the category of resists not being all that useful.  A situational spell at best that doesn't fall under some sort of 50/50 category.<font color="#ffff00">Im not saying we are equally useful, I'm saying that we do qualify in situations and I don't care about the rest.  It's impossible to assume all healers are going to be 50% 50% useful for MT groups.  My point is, why does it matter?</font><blockquote><hr width="100%" size="2">The two DI's do have a role in MT groups where the initial pre-debuff damage can be extreme and having even that second chance to keep the MT up can make a difference.  Even if it buys a second that is enough time for a BiTF or set of large DH's to land, for a further tic of regen, etc..<hr width="100%" size="2"></blockquote>If I'm not mistaken, don't other priests have the single target DI?  And don't tell me you would rather have the group DI over BiTF or any other lvl52 marquee spell.  Sure, it might be useful if someone has it and knows how to use it (which is uncommon), but its pretty much an 'anyone but me.'<font color="#ffff00">Sure I would rather have BiTF, but having done the work on the DH's i'm convinced we dont need it, but rather fury need it to keep up with us and at great power cost.  Warden have 2 DI's not 1 and can therefore keep it on the tank for a much greater length of time.</font><blockquote><hr width="100%" size="2">There are reasons to have a warden there guys, above is just two GOOD examples.  Besides.. even if there were no examples, wardens have the largest contribution to a full burn DH of all the classes and as such filling the raid outside of MT group with Wardens is almost desirable.MT group isn't that glamourous.  Look on the bright side...  If the MT goes down its usually the healers in his group that are blamed <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><hr></blockquote>I don't know, we generally blame wipes on an overeager caster or bad luck on the spikes.  The second reason generally involves moving more mitigation into the MT group, which is never us.  Sure, if you min-max, you might find wardens to be the most effective off-group healers, but our lead is often swallowed up by the noise floor.  At best, these are examples of why to keep a warden in a raid but not really reasons to go looking for a warden.<font color="#ffff00">I've said this again and again.  If you are this pesimistic about wardens then go play another class.  My reasons are not to get rid of you, but to convince you tht things are not as bad as they seem.</font>I, like every other priest, want a raid leader to say "Oh crap, we don't have a XXX" every time their class doesn't show up, be it buffing the tank, buffing DPS, or offering some sort of vital raid utility that just cannot be performed effectively by any other class.<font color="#ffff00">They may not always want the class, but I constantly have the issue when I am working and my guild are raiding where they say,  "Oh crap we dont have Tracx".</font></span></div><hr></blockquote>You misunderstand me in many ways in this post.  I get the impression you think that I am in denial regarding many of our marquee spells...  I agree that we have issues regarding debuffs, marquee spells and such.  But I do not agree that this renders us unable to get into MT group.  I have posted examples of why Wardens can end up in MT group, but for right now Wardens are excelling in many other areas and this begs the question.  Why is being in the MT group so important?</span></div>

[Barand]

<span>Why is being in the MT group so important?The issue is not to be in MT group be to be desirable in MT group. Can you really imagine a MT group without any cleric or shaman ?A combination of shaman+druid or cleric+druid ?No this is not as efficient as cleric+shaman. Druid does not equal the other archetype for a spot in MT team. If i have to drop someone to buff up mitigation for the tank for example, i will drop myself since i provide the less to the team. I want to have the choice and i dont want to be the pure healer we are now. This is not what the class was at the beginning, most of the people here play since release and have choose warden to be a  DEFENSIVE healer. To my mind it make more sens to have the cleric being the pure healer and druid the defensive buffer. This will never happen except if there is another combat change, but i really doubt it.So right now what is left to us ?Our only chance is having the marquee spell change into spell that help us fulfill their role.Tranquility recast time down to 1-1,5s : great, thats a role we can fulfill with our quick heal. Since cure is very important with KoS having a warden in MT team will help a lot for curing.Nature respite/Tunare watch change into something more usefull : good too, they can do a lot here that will please everyone. Either a permabuff, or lower the recast time, or increase the amount up to 30-50% of the health (the one i think will help the more).Sandstorm :  I dont know how to put it in game, but the idea would be to remove the mana drain if the stun is not activated (maybe no mana drain on cast, but use a small amount of power for every proc). That way it still keep it usefulness in group, and can be toggled as a defense buff for raid.Hierophantic genesis : increase the amount of heal to be in line with our heal / remove the stun / decrease the power cost / add another effect ... same here lots of possibility but a tweak is needed for this spell to be in line with what other priest get.I think we will never get a big hp buff, or even new buff / debuff. But if we can play well elsewhere everyone would be happy.</span><div></div>

[mikemcmodmi]

<div>Touryn Wrote:</div><div> </div><div>Before I call it a night, just want to announce that I've been planning some structural revisions to the list.  I'm considering merging the 'what works' and 'shortcomings' list into a single list that describes the current condition of each type of play style.  I will need input from people who play in the various styles, especially those below certain levels (like lvl45 for duststorm).  The tenative list (terse):Solo - We are probably second only to Furies in this regard (in the realm of priests) and probably better than them before their 20's.  As this depends mainly on heals and DPS, we can probably balance other areas without strongly impacting this one.</div><div> </div><div><font color="#ffff66">We are actually better at soloing then furies given our roots.  Takes a long time, but we can solo a lot harder mobs for quest updates and such.  I'd say we're the strongest healer in this regard.</font>Small Groups - I don't know much about this, but considering we do well Solo and in Groups, we are probably also effective here.</div><div> </div><div><font color="#ffff66">Again we are strong here.</font>Groups (Easy/XP) - The amount of time spent healing is generally pretty minimal.  As we are pretty well off in the DPS department, we can contribute to a group outside of the realm of healing, making us rather desirable.  The real concern of a priest in these groups is dealing with unexpected adds, which requires the priest to be able to spin up into heal mode rapidly.  I don't feel we have much difficulty in that regard.</div><div> </div><div><font color="#ffff66">In these groups we do well if we go offensive.  If 2nd healer we are generally forced to go purely offensive and pretend we're melee mages <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></font>Groups (Hard) - Considering we are probably the only priest that can solo heal HoF, we are probably pretty good here.  Of course, that ability is closely tied to sandstorm, which is a complaint in the raiding section.</div><div> </div><div><font color="#ffff66">Agreed.</font></div><div></div><div>Raiding - This is where the warden begins to drop off.  Individual healing and DPS becomes less significant than what you can offer to the tank (buffs), real DPS, or debuffs on the mob.  Other than resists, which are situational at best, we don't offer much in the other two categories compared to other priests.  Due to the effect of orange mobs on avoidance, sandstorm is pretty much useless.</div><div> </div><div><font color="#ffff66">Agreed.  Our only advantage is if we're in G1 we can provide more healing power then any other healer.  If we're in an off group this advantage is lost and we provide equal healing to any other class on MT.  However, we are the strongest AoE healers but provide no dps buffs whatsoever besides a single target buff meant for the Tank while grouping.</font></div><p><font color="#ffff66">I believe that sums it up, probably the best at soloing, we do equal > then furies in small groups.  We do well in group scenarios with sandstorm allowing us to solo heal anything if you work well with your tank.  Come time to raiding our buffs are subpar compared to any other healing class.  This is why we need to lose something (sandstorm) to gain something new for raiding or we just sound like whiners asking to be overpowered.</font></p><div></div>

[Touryn]

<div><span><blockquote><hr>mikemcmodmike wrote:<p><font color="#ffff66">I believe that sums it up, probably the best at soloing, we do equal > then furies in small groups.  We do well in group scenarios with sandstorm allowing us to solo heal anything if you work well with your tank.  Come time to raiding our buffs are subpar compared to any other healing class.  This is why we need to lose something (sandstorm) to gain something new for raiding or we just sound like whiners asking to be overpowered.</font></p><hr></blockquote>Assuming fixes/changes to the marquee spells aren't sufficient to restore some level of faith in our raid utility, I'm not above asking to trade sandstorm for improved utility.  However, for those who don't actively raid, that's a pretty big nerf to gain something they will see little use from.  Overpowered or not, they would rather things stay as they are rather than have that happen.</span></div>

[Rappy]

Ironically I feel tranquility would be best addressed by ditching the heal component all together and leaving it as a 20 second recast big cure.  Its not like I use it for healing anyway.  Currently I am using it for when the MT needs curing and the regular cures just cant strip it.  Would therefore be nice if it was lower power cost, faster and didnt bother healing.<div></div>

[heel]

<div></div><div></div><div></div><blockquote><hr>mikemcmodmike wrote:<div>Touryn Wrote:</div><div> </div><div>Groups (Hard) - Considering we are probably the only priest that can solo heal HoF, we are probably pretty good here.  Of course, that ability is closely tied to sandstorm, which is a complaint in the raiding section.</div><div> </div><div><font color="#ffff66">Agreed.</font></div><div></div><div>Raiding - This is where the warden begins to drop off.  Individual healing and DPS becomes less significant than what you can offer to the tank (buffs), real DPS, or debuffs on the mob.  Other than resists, which are situational at best, we don't offer much in the other two categories compared to other priests.  Due to the effect of orange mobs on avoidance, sandstorm is pretty much useless.</div><div> </div><div><font color="#ffff66">Agreed.  Our only advantage is if we're in G1 we can provide more healing power then any other healer.  If we're in an off group this advantage is lost and we provide equal healing to any other class on MT.  However, we are the strongest AoE healers but provide no dps buffs whatsoever besides a single target buff meant for the Tank while grouping.</font></div><p><font color="#ffff66">I believe that sums it up, probably the best at soloing, we do equal > then furies in small groups.  We do well in group scenarios with sandstorm allowing us to solo heal anything if you work well with your tank.  Come time to raiding our buffs are subpar compared to any other healing class.  This is why we need to lose something (sandstorm) to gain something new for raiding or we just sound like whiners asking to be overpowered.</font></p><div></div><hr></blockquote><p>This worries me. HoF solo-healing as a warden is still very rough, and it's not a lvl 70 average warden(I'd say about a couple/three minor t7 masters..rest being ad3 heals) in an average group(let's say-half guildies/half pickup) can accomplish daily. Do not know how the information of that wardens are *only* viable solo healers came from, but I can assure you that I've heard it done with a single mystic or inquisitor. If any, personally I've encountered more peeps who'd balk at the idea of a warden embarking on solo healing HoF instance. In average groups, you could say healing alone is not a problem, but you'd definately have more trouble managing doubled aggro and poor mitigation, utility on our part to successfully defrag the aggro.</p><p>Overall, I'm reading many responses to our original post being come from MT wardens. Somewhere sometime we seem to have shifted the focus, more concentration getting our fixes in regards of raiding. I do not see the reasoning behind such claims of "(in short, as I view it)we do solo healing the best, we parse the top in raid, we do dps equal or better than furies, but give us a definite raid buff wo we can solidify our position". It already reads certainly like "<em>we just sound like whinners asking to be overpowered</em>". I'm sure that's not how we all meant to put, moreover, it does not feel the way it is with this average (MT) warden. it's contradicting on our part imo. Spike healing is still my main concern, an issue still worthy to be readdressed imo. It's like pulling teeth yet, even with crit % maxed and with help from bard or chanter. Not even going to compare to other healer classes here just to be fair, if I could do it with ease in my 30, 40, 50, 60s..there's that warden healing mechanism no longer in par with new expansion mobs. My healing has been always my best defense, this certainly feels to slack.</p><p>Taking Sandstorm off altogether from our signature line is out of question to me. It needs to be FIXED, not deleted.</p><p>And Tranquility..its casting timer needs to be reduced. Heal amount still needs to be there somewhat in proper proportion of its casting timer.  </p><p>Message Edited by heelox on <span class="date_text">04-05-2006</span><span class="time_text">11:50 AM</span></p><p>Message Edited by heelox on <span class="date_text">04-05-2006</span><span class="time_text">11:52 AM</span></p>

[Formangenavn]

<div></div><p>Nicely put heelox.</p><p>Many times I am so frustrated and just want to make a post giving some examples of what is demanded to call something "reality" or "truth" or statistically significant. I am not a scientist though so probably shouldnt :smileyvery-happy:</p><p>But realy, I see a lot of "I can do this more or less reliably/have done it once with my uber guild all dressed in fable and with all master1 so this is not a problem"</p><p>Even if one Warden heals for 10 times more then all other healers in his/her guild that does not mean wardens can heal 10 times better then all other healers. I does not matter if you parse it or not, it does not make it more true. It only means YOU can heal for 10 times more then everyone else in that specific situation. This is the frustrating part. People base truth on their perception of a situation.</p><p>This goes for everyone though. If you can do something that noone else can do there might actually be a problem, if you can not do what everyone else can do you might be the problem. Lets all be a bit more open to suggestions and not dissmiss it just because you have no issues with it.</p><p>The Warden class is for all Wardens, not just YOU (not pointing at anyone here)</p>

[Sorano]

<div></div><div><p><span><font size="3">People do have a point. Wardens may parse ok on a raid, but we still remain the only priest class forced to rely on their group direct heal in order to cope with spike damage. That negates our heal efficiency because we are using a group heal in order to keep a single target up. And FYI I have nearly all master heals bar Wave of Healing and I have not attempted to solo heal HoF. I can most probably do it but why bother. It’s less stressful and more efficient to take two healers. There are also a few templars on their forums who have said they solo heal HoF, so we are really not the only healers who can do that in that zone. I think it will just come down to the quality of your spells more than anything else.</font></span></p><p><span><font size="3"></font></span> </p><p><span><font size="3">On a side note my guild dinged 50 last night and when I checked the status merchant there were several interesting items for sale. One item, gave the caster 1.5k mitigation against all damage types for 30 seconds, basically porc for everyone. So I still think my request to the devs to give wardens a single target 1k mit buff is reasonable..</font></span></p><p><span><font size="3"></font></span> </p></div>

[Unmask]

<div></div>There is also an evac item.  There are lots of 1-use items so there may be something that duplicates at least one of everyone's abilities.

[mikemcmodmi]

<div></div><div></div><p>Well I dont believe you will get healing for Wardens changed or upped.  It's not following the class balance as they've put forward.</p><p>The devs have come out and said, all healers will heal evenly.  What then separates healers it's the way they help their group survive.  Templars have the best buffs on top of even healing.  Inquisators buff hps (subpar to templars) along with offensive buffs and debuffs that allow them to heal evenly with templars.  Shamans have buffs along with debuffs they cast on the mob making it do less damage.  Furies have subpar heals but get the additional bitf along with hibernation, plus offensive buffs.  Wardens have... wisdom buffs and 66 points of agility.  We by far got the raw end of the deal unless you use sandstorm which gives the tank a hefty amount of avoidance, but the buff can't be maintained and roots us.  No debuffs whatsoever.  Less hps to work with.</p><p>Thing is with healing you only need enough healing for the damage the mob is doing, anything else is surplus so we hold our own.  But these damage spikes that people are talking about are actually the result of less hps buffs.  If a tank is at 7k hps with us and gets hit for 6k that brings him into the red with only 1k remaining.  With a shaman he's at 9k hps and is left with 3k hps, enough time to cure the debuff and get off a heal.  With us there might not be enough time to get off that heal which is the real source of the 'spike damage' problem imo.  You also have to take into account that shamans debuff dps and attack speed, so that 6k hit is more like 4k making the shaman's job even easier.</p><p>At the end of the day they will not make us heal more.  It's against the game design.  All we can ask for is better buffs so that damage spike is mitigated more or less of a threat to the tank dying.</p><p>Message Edited by mikemcmodmike on <span class="date_text">04-05-2006</span><span class="time_text">09:37 PM</span></p>

[Rappy]

The way our heals work the most sensible solution to our bufing problem would be plain and simple HP, we rely on the tank having slightly less than 100% hp constantly to make the most out of our regeneration line heals.  As such having much better HP buffs would give us a wider range to work with and help offset the burst damage issue.<div></div>

[Unmask]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>mikemcmodmike wrote:<div></div><div></div><p>We by far got the raw end of the deal unless you use sandstorm which gives the tank a hefty amount of avoidance</p><p><font color="#ffff00">I'm not sure what you mean by hefty but it only adds about 0.2% avoidance to the lvl 70 tank's I've tested (I have it at master).  It's much more useful in a group because of the stun.</font></p><p>With us there might not be enough time to get off that heal which is the real source of the 'spike damage' problem imo.  You also have to take into account that shamans debuff dps and attack speed, so that 6k hit is more like 4k making the shaman's job even easier.</p><p><font color="#ffff00">In a raid the MT has those buffs anyway so any lack of spike healing from a raid perspective isn't about our buffs.</font></p><p>At the end of the day they will not make us heal more.  It's against the game design.  All we can ask for is better buffs so that damage spike is mitigated more or less of a threat to the tank dying.</p><font color="#ffff00">Any real fixes to the class has to come from our marquee spells.  If we can buff or debuff as well as clerics and shaman they will want our dps.</font><hr></blockquote>

[Crimson Dragon]

<div></div>well done!some possible additions:another possible solution for the "spike damage" issue is to give the mobs <i>less </i>of these massive and devastating attacks. in KoS, it seems that almost all of them have the potential to halve, if not totally obliterate, the hp of even a level 70 tank. maybe more consistent, but smaller, attacks for some opponents would be a viable option.also, (to my knowledge) our specialty regen still does not stack with the fury one. the spells have different names, we're different classes, even more separated by the recent character progression changes - we don't even necessarily stem as "druids" anymore. why should these spells not work together instead of bumping each other off? if that's too much, why not change one? kind of a frustrating situation for me. i always seem to find myself grouped with a fury.<div></div><p>Message Edited by Crimson Dragon on <span class="date_text">04-06-2006</span><span class="time_text">09:14 AM</span></p>

[Dragonreal]

<div></div><div></div><blockquote><hr>Crimson Dragon wrote:<div></div><p> </p><p>also, (to my knowledge) our specialty regen still does not stack with the fury one. the spells have different names, we're different classes, even more separated by the recent character progression changes - we don't even necessarily stem as "druids" anymore. why should these spells not work together instead of bumping each other off? if that's too much, why not change one? kind of a frustrating situation for me. i always seem to find myself grouped with a fury.</p><div></div><p>Message Edited by Crimson Dragon on <span class="date_text">04-06-2006</span><span class="time_text">09:14 AM</span></p><hr></blockquote>No healer's specialty heal stacks with its counterpart's specialty heal; ie: only one version of each type of specialty may be active on a person at a time. This was stated as intentional back when lu13 hit. Actually even before lu13, our heals didn't stack; the only reason both a fury and a warden could each get their single target specialty onto one person was because there were buffs attached to the heals that DID stack, so you would get the benefit of the buffs (elemental resists for warden and 2% dps buff for fury) but you would not get double the regen power. These buffs have since been removed so there's no need at all anymore for them to stack.<p>Message Edited by Dragonrealms on <span class="date_text">04-06-2006</span><span class="time_text">12:23 PM</span></p>

[Crimson Dragon]

<div><span><blockquote><hr>Dragonrealms wrote:<div></div><div></div><blockquote><hr>Crimson Dragon wrote:<div></div><p> </p><p>also, (to my knowledge) our specialty regen still does not stack with the fury one. the spells have different names, we're different classes, even more separated by the recent character progression changes - we don't even necessarily stem as "druids" anymore. why should these spells not work together instead of bumping each other off? if that's too much, why not change one? kind of a frustrating situation for me. i always seem to find myself grouped with a fury.</p><div></div><p>Message Edited by Crimson Dragon on <span class="date_text">04-06-2006</span><span class="time_text">09:14 AM</span></p><hr></blockquote>No healer's specialty heal stacks with its counterpart's specialty heal; ie: only one version of each type of specialty may be active on a person at a time. This was stated as intentional back when lu13 hit. Actually even before lu13, our heals didn't stack; the only reason both a fury and a warden could each get their single target specialty onto one person was because there were buffs attached to the heals that DID stack, so you would get the benefit of the buffs (elemental resists for warden and 2% dps buff for fury) but you would not get double the regen power. These buffs have since been removed so there's no need at all anymore for them to stack.<p>Message Edited by Dragonrealms on <span class="date_text">04-06-2006</span><span class="time_text">12:23 PM</span></p><hr></blockquote>ok then. i'll deal with it. someone had told me their stacked, which got me going on this... but since they don't, i'm  gonna shut up and go back to playing. <span>:smileytongue:</span></span></div>

[mikemcmodmi]

<div></div><p>I believe HPs would work.  I don't want them to dumb down content, it's easy enough as is :smileysurprised:</p><p>I also like that there's variety in the different types of heals.  Templars are the most defensive and have low dps, Inquisators have offensive buffs along with debuffs for the mob (some offensive), shamans debuff the mob with good offensive buffs, furies get offensive buffs and have good dps, wardens get 321 health and add 700 to all resists....  yea, that's our problem right there, buffs.</p><p>I say NOOOOO to getting debuffs.  If I wanted debuffs I'd have rolled a shaman.  Atm our buffs are subpar compared to the offensive cleric, the inquisator.... maybe that's the root of the problem.  The way I see it, our buffs are subpar compared to every class save furies, where some people feel furies have better buffs with porcupine.</p><p>I like class diversity, no melting pot where all healers are the same so maybe.... turn our power buff into a hp buff.  Aspect of the hawk adds 700 power or so so maybe turn that into hps.  The reason I asked for a spell shield is because one doesn't exist atm too, it would be something similar to the troub's ability but still nothing too similar.</p><p>I'm thinking if this would be outside of the class definition when I first started the game...  Wardens were meant to be the defensive variant of the druid with powerful buffs for our group.  Well that never panned out after combatrevamp but maybe a couple of tweaks would help.  Having us add hps isn't really outside of the scope of the class too I believe.  It might just be the current setup where only clerics and shamans add hps, don't believe it has to be that way and would be treading into someone else's territory.</p>

[Sorano]

<div></div>Leave my power buff alone ty <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> I don't really think we should be asking to buff hps. Druids seem to be channeled down the resist pathway. They just need to go all the way and give us more mitigation buffs than the other priets. Furies already get that with porc, they just need to give wardens something.

[mikemcmodmi]

<div></div><div></div><p>Well I believe if we added even 1 more point of mitigation then other priests we would be overpowered.  Each healer class adds the same base mitigation and then has a secondary ability attacked to the buff.  For us it's magic resists.  That seems to be the starting point for devs.  Same added mit and roughly equivalent healing.  Porcupine is the exception but also stuns the fury.</p><p>Now if we added say a passive 300 to mitigation, we would be overpowered.  Before combatrevamp templars and guardians added the most mitigation and that was stripped away from them and they were given tower of stone and stoneskin for good reason.  This was for balance because adding mitigation is powerful where mobs hit for physical damage with 80% of their attacks.  You would have an outright best healer.  I also don't think they'd give us stoneskin to help with damage spikes since Templars already have it and should have the outright best defensive buffs.</p><p>So how do you fix the spike damage issue?  Don't think you can go down the road of mitigation with it being overpowered which only leaves adding hps.  Either that or a spell shield, not that it would help a ton with damage spikes but at least it would let us be the strongest healer vs certain kinds of mobs.  We would become magical mob specialized, so instead of just resists a spell shield would be neat.</p><p>Message Edited by mikemcmodmike on <span class="date_text">04-06-2006</span><span class="time_text">02:50 PM</span></p>

[Sorano]

<div></div>Actually I don't think it would. We still don't buff any hps bar the one on our resist buff, so adding another 300hp more mit is not going to do much. It will however give us the extra bit of breathing room we need against spike damage by mitigating it a little. And it will only be a little because 300 more mit is not going to do all that much.

[mikemcmodmi]

<div></div>Maybe you're right.  But I have a feeling if we buffed more mitigation then Templars they'd be screaming nurf :smileyhappy:

[Crimson Dragon]

you know... i was thinking (go figure).i'm trying to think of some things that would add to and fit with the flavor of the class and still not "overpower" the warden class.i think instead of new pets or recycled mystic spells (*cough*tranquility*cough*) something like a group wolf form buff would be cool.... perhaps even bring back some of our pre-combat-change procs from our group buffs - chance to proc heals, etc.i dunno... just thinking... bit of a crazy day <span>:smileyvery-happy:</span><div></div>

[Touryn]

<div></div>As the board doesn't clearly signal when a post is edited, I'm replying here to mark the revision.As I threatened to do earlier, I collapsed the itemized shortcomings and strengths into a section describing the situation for each style of playing.  It's likely to be revised several times in the immediate future.  Language and wording are especially important here.[Edit]  Other "bugs" I might include:Is anyone still complaining about the fizzle rate or was it decided that focus is a sufficient stat to prevent it?  I'm still a bit angry that healers are taking the blunt of it.Should I complain about the shortage of certain adepts versus others?<div></div><p>Message Edited by Touryn on <span class="date_text">04-06-2006</span><span class="time_text">08:20 PM</span></p>

[mikemcmodmi]

<div></div><div></div><p>That's an ok idea... sorta like our AA line.  I was just thinking, 300 mitigation as a passive buff is overpowered.  Here's why.  The difference between a tank with all legendary gear and all fabled gear in t7 is ~400 mitigation.  So with us in group we're raise the mitigation of the tank that much?  Sounds overpowered to me.</p><p>If anything give templar's the passive mitigation buff and give us stoneskin.  I'm not sure which one is more powerful but give us the weaker of the 2.  It would suck to be given something and then have to be nurfed down for balance and cause other problems.</p><p>For balance reasons the best defensive buffers should be:  Templars > Warden > Mystics > Defilers > Inquisators > Furies</p><p>That's the way I understood the game when I began.  Defilers, I believe, are supposed to have more potent debuffs then Mystics so should be behind them in buffs.  Atm I would rank the healers as:  Templar > Defiler > Mystic > Inquisators > Wardens > Furies.</p><p>I'm no expert on shamans but I believe Mystics should have better buffs and to compensate Defilers have better debuffs.  I could be wrong.  A buff that puts us up where we belong would be good.  The above ranking at least is why I rolled my Warden in the first place, because of the awesome ability of duststorm i.e. buffs ~  I could be wrong given the combatrevamp but the spirit of each class shouldn't have changed so where are our good buffs <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />.</p><p>Message Edited by mikemcmodmike on <span class="date_text">04-06-2006</span><span class="time_text">05:26 PM</span></p>

[Sorano]

<div>If you going to use that reasoning then conj mit buffs need to be removed as well. They increase mit by around 250, and that will be the diff between fabled and non fabled armour. In fact any class that buffs mit like the Pally/SK Gift of Armament and the Zerker and Guard AAs need to be taken out as well as well.</div>

[mikemcmodmi]

<div></div><p>Well conjs buff around 326 mitigation, crusaders by around 360 I believe.  Conjs also buff resists by 806 to cold and 1008 to heat, power of group by 576.  You could argue that conjs are better buffers then wardens atm... sigh.  Still, they aren't healers and the point is balance between healing classes.</p><p>If they did give us an extra mitigation buff I'd be happy, but I don't believe they will.  I'd be happy if they do though <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

[Rappy]

<div></div>I still prefer plain and simple HP, more to work with when we are tickling regens.  It makes perfect sense to give the class that relies on the tank being below full health for the heals to work properly to have a better HP buff so that there is more health to work with.Edit: - I mean why give shamen the best HP buffs when the tank doesnt have to take any damage to get a heal?<div></div><p>Message Edited by Rappy on <span class="date_text">04-07-2006</span><span class="time_text">03:18 AM</span></p>

[slayerwarrior]

no text sry<p>Message Edited by slayerwarrior on <span class="date_text">04-07-2006</span><span class="time_text">12:03 PM</span></p>

[slayerwarrior]

Duststorm/SandstormWith many tanks at or near their avoidance cap and many raid mobs ignoring avoidance as a function of level difference, this spell is nothing but a mana drain in raids. Even in groups, its use can be limited as the root component interferes with the general tendency for groups to remain mobile.Suggestion: This spell needs to be modified to provide measurable benefit against orange and epic mobs.Priority: HighI don't want this spell touch just for fact of it not being useful in raiding! OUT of all spell we got that not at all in high Priority. I 100% agree with Rappy! Even tho people might not agree with me i still want see some help for are class.<p>Message Edited by slayerwarrior on <span class="date_text">04-07-2006</span><span class="time_text">02:50 PM</span></p>

[heel]

<div></div><div></div><blockquote><hr>Unmasked wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr>mikemcmodmike wrote:<div></div><div></div><p>We by far got the raw end of the deal unless you use sandstorm which gives the tank a hefty amount of avoidance</p><p><font color="#ffff00">I'm not sure what you mean by hefty but it only adds about 0.2% avoidance to the lvl 70 tank's I've tested (I have it at master).  It's much more useful in a group because of the stun.</font></p></blockquote><hr></blockquote><p>Correct. What was broken down as Avoidance and Defense had been readjusted again some time ago(can't remember exactly when off-hand). A plate tank with a shield equipped would not benefit much from Sandstorm, partially by the issue with the tank capping avoidance with added agi <em>and</em> shield, but also they have revamped the existing <em>defense</em> rating of a shield - making it belong to the category of avoidance. Sandstorm at current state, does offer most benefit to mages / brawler classes, which is helpful still along with stifle factor it carries. Also it is no longer pbae.</p><p>Sandstorm has many potential. It needs to follow the math of current avoidance rating correctly without being negated somewhat by the shield factor, or should go wholly to the defense(physical mitigation) rating in my opinion.</p><p>Message Edited by heelox on <span class="date_text">04-07-2006</span><span class="time_text">07:37 PM</span></p>

[mikemcmodmi]

<div></div><div></div><div></div><p>Now there's an idea that would help us and not overpower us.  Take away the defense portion from sandstorm and instead make it a group mitigation buff.  Say around 400.  Since it's a cast spell and not a passive mitigation buff I don't believe it would overpower us.  It sucks our power dry as well so it's not like we would use it too liberally too, just when we needed it.</p><p>So Sandstorm from a defense of 28 buff that stuns mobs when they hit the tank to a 400 mitigation buff that stuns mobs when they hit the tank.  It might be outside of the design of each of the classes to have us add hps (a written in weakness in our class given our dps) so this would be perfect.  Plus it would make our 'marquee' buff have some raid utility.</p><p>Then reduce the cast time on tranquility to 1 sec or 1.5 secs and we're gtg.  Atm I have tranquility M1 but never use it.  I was in HoF solo healing once and 2 debuffs hit as I was spam healing a damage spike.  I had just got the tank to full health and went for tranquility.  By the time the spell went off the tank was dead.... I'm never going to use it again unless they reduce the cast time.  Plus, have it dispell pacifies and stifles too please like ancient balm <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>Damage spikes should then be more manageable since we're mitigating more of the damage... think it would be a win-win situation for everyone without overpowering us.</p><p>The only downside is how would the mitigation buff affect crusaders?  Would us adding just as much mitigation as them lessen their utility?  Personally, I don't believe so but we would definitely give the bump to anyone who puts conjs in G1.  If anything, us adding mitigation might offset the overpowered warrior AA that lets them self buff ~400 mitigation allowing crusaders to make viable raid tanks again.  Crusader mt, Temp, Shaman, Warden, Conj and dirge in G1 without losing mitigation.</p><p>Mayi - LoC</p><p>Message Edited by mikemcmodmike on <span class="date_text">04-08-2006</span><span class="time_text">11:19 AM</span></p><p>Message Edited by mikemcmodmike on <span class="date_text">04-08-2006</span><span class="time_text">11:46 AM</span></p>

[mikemcmodmi]

<div></div>Wow, so does silence mean a concensus?  Can we put the recommendations above forward to devs as something like, 'we the wardens feel tranquility should have a shorter cast time, and believe the defense portion of sandstorm should become a mitigation buff' to get a bunch of happy Wardens?

[slayerwarrior]

NO sandstorm should not be touch! u get that change it will just get nerf!<p>Message Edited by slayerwarrior on <span class="date_text">04-09-2006</span><span class="time_text">11:47 AM</span></p>

[Touryn]

<div></div><div></div><div></div>Yeah, I'm just waiting for some arguments before I run through another update to the list.  Changing duststorm is a solution to bringing parity in raid utility, but definately not the only option.  I'm sure there are a large contengent of people that would rather duststorm be left alone, if for no other reason than to make sure sure the proc stays untouched.<div></div>This is also, in part, why I went to the current layout.  Some spells (like Duststorm) aren't really broken, per say.  However, coupled with a variety of other factors, it leads to an aspect of the game having the appearence of being unbalanced (namely, raiding).  This way, I can remove the not-so-broken spells from the Broken list and then visit them during the balance section as a possible solution.  Unless someone can argue that Duststorm being ineffective against orange/epic mobs is actual brokeness, and not merely a possible solution to raid buff inequality, I'll probably yank it from the broken list in the next update and include it when fleshing out the raid section.Edit: Huk'd Un Fonics Werked Fer Me!<p>Message Edited by Touryn on <span class="date_text">04-09-2006</span><span class="time_text">04:39 PM</span></p>

[Ridea]

<div>thank you for that list. I do agree with a lot of those things. Our poor ability to pick up on raids may be eliminated with more buffs than no other class could get. To make a reference to WoW(sorry guys), the druids in that game got a buff that no one else could give, and still did decent damage and even better healing.</div>

[slayerwarrior]

So instead helping a mit mt with aviodance , u just change it to were u help aviodance mt with mit what about us who have mit tanks that have their mit cap allready? But their aviodance has not reach cap! How many time's u going see aviodance mt?<p>Message Edited by slayerwarrior on <span class="date_text">04-09-2006</span><span class="time_text">04:24 PM</span></p>

[mikemcmodmi]

<div></div><div></div><p>Nurfing the stun on sandstorm down wouldn't be good if they added mitigation, but it's just atm 28 defense should be a good thing while raiding but it just isn't.  I also don't believe it would have to be nurfed, they designed sandstorm to add defense when defense was a really good thing to buff.  It's just now where even lvl 74 epics hits the tank hit ~86% of the time on a tank with good avoidance with a shielder giving a % chance to use his avoidance... just doesn't seem to have anywhere near the kick it once had.  I imagine vs oranges it would be worse.</p><p>Like I said before though.  Wardens are SUPPOSED to have good buffs.  It's in the basic class description <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  The combat system changed and our buffs haven't changed along with it so we no longer do, so maybe change the effects so that our buffs are once more good again is all.  Like I said, atm our buffs are worse then any cleric or shaman, that's just wrong.  We're supposed to be better buffers then any shaman and better then inquis because we get no debuffs.  We've gone astray hence this thread.  If you add that it's roughly equal healing amongst all priest classes with us having poor buffs with no debuffs the 'you have dps' argument just doesn't cut it imo.  Need buffs for balance reasons.</p><p>Btw, you can almost never cap mit.  Even if you hit 6k mit that's only vs a lvl 70 mob.  Vs a lvl 74 or so mob you'd need a lot higher mitigation.  Our raid tank atm (full fabled but missing gloves) only hits 6100 or so with a conj and shielder..... not capped vs any lvl 72+ mob if we tried to cap it.</p><p>Message Edited by mikemcmodmike on <span class="date_text">04-10-2006</span><span class="time_text">01:35 AM</span></p>

[Sorano]

<div></div>Yes turning Sandstorm into a  400 mit increase rather than 28 defence is a good idea. It does suck our power majorly and roots us so  I think it's a fair tradeoff. As someone mentioned in another thread, they use Duststorm instead of Sandstorm while grouping because at the moment the defence means nothing and Duststorm's stun is just as effective with less power drain. That clearly demonstrates that the buff itself needs to change into something more uselful like more mitigation. 

[Rappy]

Plenty of mitigation boosts around, fury still have a much better than 400 mit boost.Maybe if sandstorm added 10 to 20% hp?  Now thats a buff, it works better with our healing method, it wouldnt have stacking issues.<div></div>

[mikemcmodmi]

<div></div><div></div><p>Furies would then have a stronger mitigation buff, but in exchange it stuns them.  Hps would work too, just anything but defense <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  I don't know of a single tank that buffs defense atm or avoidance.  Most tanks I see even prefer shields that give mitigation over the ones that a add higher shield factor.</p><p>Remember the days of having a troub, warden and guardian tanking?  100% avoidance made a huge difference.  Those days are long gone.</p><p>Message Edited by mikemcmodmike on <span class="date_text">04-10-2006</span><span class="time_text">10:23 AM</span></p>

[slayerwarrior]

I still agree with rappy all the way! I just don't agree with sandstorm being played with, and it will make other healing classes focus on trying get it nerf since some all ready think it's overpowering.We should focus on are buff's that are [Removed for Content] now, and i also think it should be a combo of buff's not just 1 to bring us back in line.ADD note: Everone says are buff's are [Removed for Content] but no one has ever said anything about are group hp buff and how [Removed for Content] it is. I not sure what all was done in revamp, but this buff is [Removed for Content] imo.<p>Message Edited by slayerwarrior on <span class="date_text">04-10-2006</span><span class="time_text">11:39 AM</span></p>

[Dragonreal]

<div></div>if they change the grp hp buff then they have to do it for every other hlr because the buff is the exact same across the board for all hlr classes; the only difference is in which resists it does for each hlr.

[mikemcmodmi]

<div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><div>I don't think they're going to give us an outright new buff.  We already have more buffs then other healers, the problem is their eficacy and strength.</div><div> </div><div>We have:</div><div> </div><div>Group buffs:</div><div> </div><div>Essence of the Great Bear - standard healer hp and resist buff given to each healer</div><div>Benediction of the wild - Agi and Wis buff - somewhat weak considering we're a defensive healer but a good buff.</div><div>Aspect of the hawk - Wis and power buff - power is not defensive.  You can cast this on mt or another healer for power.</div><div>Protection of the wild - standard mit buff where for us it adds resists across the board.</div><div> </div><div>Solo buffs: </div><div> </div><div>Regenerative Spores - procs heal - I love this spell. </div><div>Spikecoat - damage shield - standard druid buff.  It isn't going to be changed.</div><div>Primitive Instinct - attack buff - meant for tank, helps in hitting orange mobs but wardens generally taken out of g1 for hps so debatable usefulness.  Helps to hold aggro and is a druid buff with furies getting their own variant.</div><div>Spirit of the bat - mana regen + some agility.</div><div> </div><div>Cast buffs: </div><div> </div><div>Sandstorm - group defense and proc's stun - this is the one I'm suggesting to change</div><div>Tunare's watch - anti death group buff - not sure if most people keep it on their hotbars.</div><div>Exhaltation of the untamed - standard resist buff given to wardens (elemental), Temps (arcane) and Mystics (nox).</div><div> </div><div>Now some of these buffs aren't going to change.  Primitive instinct and spikecoat is a druid spell where furies have their own variant.  I like regenerative spores so don't want to change that <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  Spirit of the bat is an xpac spell.  Protection of the wild and essence of the great bear are standard healer buffs. </div><div> </div><div>Our specialized buffs are benediction of the wild and aspect of the hawk.  You could argue to replace one of these for a mit/hp buff.  Could work.  Either that or change sandstorm.  The problem with changing tunare's watch into a buff is it would only help from lvl 52-70 because it's a training spell and won't get upgraded. </div><div> </div><div>If we were to change one of our buffs it would have to be either sandstorm, benediction of the wild or aspect of the hawk.  There isn't really another choice.</div><div> </div><div>Now from looking at other class forums I see whining everywhere... I hope that's not what I'm doing.  Hard to tell but I do believe we have a bigger issue then most where we can point at our deficiency and say there's a problem.  If we are designed after revamp to be weaker buffers and in exchange got subzero (one extra nuke) I'd like to know.  That wasn't my expectation. </div><p><span class="time_text">Now it's obvious that defense is sort of useless for raiding.  Vs even coned opponents in grouping it's good though.  That's why I suggest we remove the defense portion of duststorm and make it mitigation.  The reason for mitigation is it might be by design that we don't add hps.  The thinking might be hps are the realm of shamans and clerics.  It certainly has been up to this point.  Mitigation, if it was changed to add mitigation, would be useful through all realms of the game.  Soloing, grouping and raiding.  That's why I suggest it change to mitigation.  If druids adding hps isn't outside of the structure of the game then hps would be a good alternative as well.  Asking for too much is just dumb imo too.  You just end up getting nurfed down in the end and getting the class envy of other healers making for reblancing issues later.</span></p><p>Message Edited by mikemcmodmike on <span class="date_text">04-10-2006</span><span class="time_text">03:20 PM</span></p>

[slayerwarrior]

benediction of the wild now that a good ideal having it change to mit/hp buff so fare is best ideal i have seen. We have a wisdom buff and make good sense in not haveing 2 buff of same type, and little over kill imo.Mikemcmodmike keep your brain going atleast your trying hard please everone <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />!!!!!!!!!!! I also like say thanks to Touryn in making this thread!!!! You guys are very good people!<p>Message Edited by slayerwarrior on <span class="date_text">04-10-2006</span><span class="time_text">04:36 PM</span></p><p></p><p>Message Edited by slayerwarrior on <span class="date_text">04-10-2006</span><span class="time_text">05:02 PM</span></p>

[Barand]

I wouldn't mind to drop one of our wis buff. I think we are the priest who cap it the more easily. At least it will give use to all of this useless +30WIS stuff.In exchange having hp buff or mitig buff or something usefull would be great.<div></div>

[frostbane]

<P>Whats wrong with benediction?  Thats a nice amount of wisdom, for the group and for the warden.  The reason warden's cap their wisdom so easily is because with full adept 3 spells benediction adds 66 wisdom, and aspect adds 95.  Thats a 161 wisdom....take even one of those away and i guarentee you will feel it.  Besides it's GREAT having those buffs, because when we tackle an especially nasty mob and we need to up our resists, i can swap out 4 jewelry slots for t7 resist jewelry and not lose any of my effectiveness because i still have so much wisdom.</P> <P>Instinct is useful on ANY melee based DPS class, not just the MT.  Aspect CAN be placed on a mage for an extra 646 power, but wouldn't it be MUCH better on say your MT?  If your not in that group then give it to the backup tank, or if your not even in that group a mage will work.    No one will complain about getting extra resists and power.</P> <P>Duststorm works GREAT in groups, and so asking for it to change so you can get some raid utility out of it is dumb because then it's usefulness in groups will change.  </P> <P>Thats like saying well i'm a warden, and my damage spells don't have a whole lot of raid usefulness, so i want them changed to have some.  Not every spell is made to work in every situation.</P> <P>But i would like to see Essence of the great bear, or protection of the oak get a revamp.  Adding say some more mitigation to Essence other then the standard healer mititgation would be nice.  Or maybe add an HP component to Protection!</P>

[Shennr]

<DIV>Sandstorm/Dustorm has to be changed</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>It has already been proven and the way this spell gets upgraded is only leading to a dead end for future increased level caps.  There is a cap on how much defence you can get, not just avoidance.  You could be at 40% avoidance but if you defence is capped then that extra 28 or however much those future upgraded spells past level 70 will give is pointless and will not increase the avoidance.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This already applies to 3 out of the 6 tanks, Guardians who already buff defence close to the defense cap and Brawlers who are already close to the avoidance cap.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The spell needs to be changed however adding Mit is not the answer.  We are druids and are not meant to be the class that buffs mit higher then others.  We were meant to buff avoidance, however, we were given the defence boost instead of a direct avoidance boost with the Duststorm line of buffs. Why do you think that both druids, fury's and Warden's, both buff Agi? Agility directly increases avoidance however right now that added agility adds maybe only 2% avoidance.  While both druids buff roughly 2% avoidance there are other priests that buff way more beneficial stats like HP and Damage.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The % proc stun portion on this buff however does greatly reduce incoming damage, much more than the + defense.  The way I see it a better change to this buff would be to take off the root portion of the buff, take away the defense portion of the buff, make the mana that is consumed to be a set amount at the beginning of the cast with no continuous power consumptions, and making the upgrades to the spell increase the duration of the spell.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This allows the wardens to move freely throughout the fight and not have to worry about running out of power.  The duration on the spell would make people very eager to upgrade it as well.</DIV>

[mikemcmodmi]

<P>Well I'm not saying we should get rid of sandstorm or change it to where it's only good for raiding.  I'm saying we should change it to where it has benefits across all parts of the game instead of just groups of 6 like it is atm.  Power cost is too high to use soloing or in small group, no benefit to raiding.</P> <P>As for changing Sandstorm to a buff that's cast with no root and less of a power cost... I don't know.  It would then be good for soloing and group but would miss the raid part of this game.  Imo too many see this game as a raider vs group vs solo.  It's all part of the same game and I'd rather something that helped us everywhere.</P> <P>There's the other issue where SoE has gone to buffs that either cost power over time for a set duration or passive buffs.  I've never seen one where upgrades make the duration longer.  I know it would seem like an easy thing to add, but it might not be.  I really think SoE messed up when they gave temps stoneskin.  Stoneskin should have been given to Wardens since it's essentially avoidance but now it's sort of too late... that would have been perfect for an avoidance healer <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P>Btw, I don't have numbers but I've been talking to a cleric friend of mine.... we might have a lot more problems then just buffs and I'm going to talk to him and test it out for numbers....</P><p>Message Edited by mikemcmodmike on <span class=date_text>04-11-2006</span> <span class=time_text>10:00 AM</span>

[Rappy]

may be nice to have some sort of power regen, PotG in eq1 had a mana regen component<div></div>

[Barand]

already have spirit of the bat and hierophantic line for manaand for people who care about group and solo, warden is already very good in those 2 part. We dont need any improvment here.Most of the complaint comes from a raid point of view. We fall behind in raid since it demand great utility tool to be efficient and one of our most important utility is useless (stun)<div></div>

[slayerwarrior]

benediction of the wild should have the wisdom remove and 17 % hp buff replace on it imo, and the hp buff would be ten X more useful then the wisdom. For sandstorm why can they just not take off the def part of it, but put in place % avoidance like a % hp buff so it has more of use and add to overall avoidance.Just to Say remove defence part even tho it add 3% to avoidance just for more time would be a nerf making it even less useful.Don't want more power regen, and please that just be something that will not help + Illusionist and Coercer thats their job imo. add when your low on power all mages can help in this part.<p>Message Edited by slayerwarrior on <span class=date_text>04-11-2006</span> <span class=time_text>12:05 PM</span><p><p>Message Edited by slayerwarrior on <span class=date_text>04-11-2006</span> <span class=time_text>12:21 PM</span>

[Unmask]

<P>The problem is that this doesn't address the core issue - that the duststorm line is completely useless on raids.  I don't think I've seen anyone complaining about this spell with respect to group/solo content.  It's a thorny issue though since we'd like to see it useful in raids and remain worthwhile for groups but without overpowering it.  </P> <P>I think the real answer is tweaking the combat rules to make defense skill more important and avoidance actually mean something.  But I don't see that happening.  Other than that perhaps this spell should be a single target buff like the instinct line since the only one who really needs this buff is the MT.  I don't know about anyone else but as a defensive healer, have a +65 combat buff but a meager +28 defensive buff seems lopsided for a defensive healer.  So maybe making it a single target but more potent buff is the best we can hope for?</P> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Shennron wrote:<BR> <DIV>Sandstorm/Dustorm has to be changed</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>It has already been proven and the way this spell gets upgraded is only leading to a dead end for future increased level caps.  There is a cap on how much defence you can get, not just avoidance.  You could be at 40% avoidance but if you defence is capped then that extra 28 or however much those future upgraded spells past level 70 will give is pointless and will not increase the avoidance.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This already applies to 3 out of the 6 tanks, Guardians who already buff defence close to the defense cap and Brawlers who are already close to the avoidance cap.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The spell needs to be changed however adding Mit is not the answer.  We are druids and are not meant to be the class that buffs mit higher then others.  We were meant to buff avoidance, however, we were given the defence boost instead of a direct avoidance boost with the Duststorm line of buffs. Why do you think that both druids, fury's and Warden's, both buff Agi? Agility directly increases avoidance however right now that added agility adds maybe only 2% avoidance.  While both druids buff roughly 2% avoidance there are other priests that buff way more beneficial stats like HP and Damage.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The % proc stun portion on this buff however does greatly reduce incoming damage, much more than the + defense.  The way I see it a better change to this buff would be to take off the root portion of the buff, take away the defense portion of the buff, make the mana that is consumed to be a set amount at the beginning of the cast with no continuous power consumptions, and making the upgrades to the spell increase the duration of the spell.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This allows the wardens to move freely throughout the fight and not have to worry about running out of power.  The duration on the spell would make people very eager to upgrade it as well.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>

[slayerwarrior]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Unmasked wrote:<BR> <P>The problem is that this doesn't address the core issue - that the duststorm line is completely useless on raids.  I don't think I've seen anyone complaining about this spell with respect to group/solo content.  It's a thorny issue though since we'd like to see it useful in raids and remain worthwhile for groups but without overpowering it.  </P> <P>I think the real answer is tweaking the combat rules to make defense skill more important and avoidance actually mean something.  But I don't see that happening.  Other than that perhaps this spell should be a single target buff like the instinct line since the only one who really needs this buff is the MT.  I don't know about anyone else but as a defensive healer, have a +65 combat buff but a meager +28 defensive buff seems lopsided for a defensive healer.  So maybe making it a single target but more potent buff is the best we can hope for?</P> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Shennron wrote:<BR> <DIV>Sandstorm/Dustorm has to be changed</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>It has already been proven and the way this spell gets upgraded is only leading to a dead end for future increased level caps.  There is a cap on how much defence you can get, not just avoidance.  You could be at 40% avoidance but if you defence is capped then that extra 28 or however much those future upgraded spells past level 70 will give is pointless and will not increase the avoidance.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This already applies to 3 out of the 6 tanks, Guardians who already buff defence close to the defense cap and Brawlers who are already close to the avoidance cap.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The spell needs to be changed however adding Mit is not the answer.  We are druids and are not meant to be the class that buffs mit higher then others.  We were meant to buff avoidance, however, we were given the defence boost instead of a direct avoidance boost with the Duststorm line of buffs. Why do you think that both druids, fury's and Warden's, both buff Agi? Agility directly increases avoidance however right now that added agility adds maybe only 2% avoidance.  While both druids buff roughly 2% avoidance there are other priests that buff way more beneficial stats like HP and Damage.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The % proc stun portion on this buff however does greatly reduce incoming damage, much more than the + defense.  The way I see it a better change to this buff would be to take off the root portion of the buff, take away the defense portion of the buff, make the mana that is consumed to be a set amount at the beginning of the cast with no continuous power consumptions, and making the upgrades to the spell increase the duration of the spell.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This allows the wardens to move freely throughout the fight and not have to worry about running out of power.  The duration on the spell would make people very eager to upgrade it as well.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR><FONT color=#ccff66>In reading both post u just made me sad >:/ sry to say that cuase it's of topic.</FONT>

[mikemcmodmi]

I don't think the devs will change around the whole combat system and then standstorm just to fix the warden class.  Just a hunch =p.  Still I think the consensus is fix something with our buffs, anything.  Do your models devs and give us anything so we actually provide some sort of benefit to anyone besides our heals.... which are broken in themselves now I believe (see 'why does everyone think wardens are broken').  Well not broken, in theory they're good but don't fit in well with the direction the game is going.

[mikemcmodmi]

<P>Actually, thinking about it there is an easy fix.  Since defense is capped I believe Sandstorm should be changed.  Please add:</P> <OL> <LI>Change defense of sandstorm (since 28 defense even pushes a healer past cap, hehe jk) so sandstorm becomes an ability that scales for the future.  Give us anything.  Mitigation, hps, whatever.  Just something that scales and isn't capped (or capped so easily) so with each expansion you don't get similar complaints.</LI> <LI>Change our Agi AA ability that makes faster hots also effect the hot portion of our direct heals.  This will get around the spell haste issue where we lose ticks on our heals if we spam heal because with haste the heal freshes and we can recast before the ticks of healing can expire.  Plus will help spike damage issues.</LI></OL> <P>Please fix them soon too =p</P><p>Message Edited by mikemcmodmike on <span class=date_text>04-12-2006</span> <span class=time_text>01:12 AM</span>

[Rappy]

<div></div>Totally agree and to illustrate this, I'm back to using duststorm because the defense capping renders the upgrade pointlessEDIT - perhaps it is time to post this on the spells and combat forum<div></div><p>Message Edited by Rappy on <span class=date_text>04-12-2006</span> <span class=time_text>03:03 AM</span>

[slayerwarrior]

Even if they add are direct heal hot still going to lower duration. making it not heal for more but same just faster, but i don't know how much it will help.

[Barand]

A good thread on spell forum  may attire attention because i think no dev read this one anymore <div></div>

[Crimson Dragon]

we might just have to deal with the fact that some spells are for raids and others are for grouping. heaven forbid, we get something that has a strength in one area, but falls short elsewhere. i'm pretty sure it's near-impossible to level to 70 on just raiding (i don't think there are even any raid mobs until about 20). i see raiding guild people in groups all the time. so... having a spell like sandstorm that's really best-used in groups isn't going to hurt our class. if it doesn't work in raids, don't use it in raids. it doesn't need to be fixed just to tailor to all the raiding people. not everyone who plays this game, or the warden class, is going to be raiding. especially not all the time. you will spend a lot of time in groups, so use it then.anyway, i've used it in raids. although the power drain is significant, it seems to make a little difference. when i can spare the power, i'm not afraid to use it. i've got enough regen gear, power taps (manastone), etc to keep my power up most of the time. don't forget that epic targets have defense debuffs too.unfortunately, we're given all these numbers to work with, but we can't parse hate values for group / raid members or see the tank's defensive stats (in full detail) at any time to know exactly how things are working. sometimes you have to put a little faith in your spells and do what feels like it works for you.<div></div>

[Unmask]

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> mikemcmodmike wrote:<BR> I don't think the devs will change around the whole combat system and then standstorm just to fix the warden class.  Just a hunch =p.  Still I think the consensus is fix something with our buffs, anything.  Do your models devs and give us anything so we actually provide some sort of benefit to anyone besides our heals.... which are broken in themselves now I believe (see 'why does everyone think wardens are broken').  Well not broken, in theory they're good but don't fit in well with the direction the game is going.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>This is not a warden issue since we're not the only ones who benefit from or buff +defense.  The fact is that avoidance means very little in a raid anyway so what's the point of even having the skill?  This is what I'm suggesting.

[Unmask]

<DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Crimson Dragon wrote:<BR><BR>anyway, i've used it in raids. although the power drain is significant, it seems to make a little difference. when i can spare the power, i'm not afraid to use it. i've got enough regen gear, power taps (manastone), etc to keep my power up most of the time. don't forget that epic targets have defense debuffs too.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>When I cast it on my non raid buffed tank it increases his avoidance by 0.2%.  I just don't even bother casting it anymore outside of group instances.  And it's a whole lot easier, cheaper and faster to cure the debuff than to cast sandstorm.<BR></DIV>

[Crimson Dragon]

<div><blockquote><hr>Unmasked wrote:<div></div> <blockquote> <hr> mikemcmodmike wrote: <div></div>I don't think the devs will change around the whole combat system and then standstorm just to fix the warden class.  Just a hunch =p.  Still I think the consensus is fix something with our buffs, anything.  Do your models devs and give us anything so we actually provide some sort of benefit to anyone besides our heals.... which are broken in themselves now I believe (see 'why does everyone think wardens are broken').  Well not broken, in theory they're good but don't fit in well with the direction the game is going. <hr> </blockquote>This is not a warden issue since we're not the only ones who benefit from or buff +defense.  The fact is that avoidance means very little in a raid anyway so what's the point of even having the skill?  This is what I'm suggesting.<hr></blockquote>avoidance means something in raids. it's only an issue against <b>orange con </b>epics, who have unholy powers of hitting and ignoring mitigation and avoidance. so against yellow con and lower (for the tank) avoidance is useful, even in raids.see my previous post (right before yours) as to why we have the skill.</div>

[Crimson Dragon]

<div><blockquote><hr>Unmasked wrote:<div> <blockquote> <hr> Crimson Dragon wrote:anyway, i've used it in raids. although the power drain is significant, it seems to make a little difference. when i can spare the power, i'm not afraid to use it. i've got enough regen gear, power taps (manastone), etc to keep my power up most of the time. don't forget that epic targets have defense debuffs too. <hr> </blockquote>When I cast it on my non raid buffed tank it increases his avoidance by 0.2%.  I just don't even bother casting it anymore outside of group instances.  And it's a whole lot easier, cheaper and faster to cure the debuff than to cast sandstorm.</div><hr></blockquote>yeah, the numbers are small. i tend to play on instinct... because they don't give us all of the numbers to work with  (we don't see the "roll" on avoidance for the tank or anything like that), there may be a succession of "checks" for avoidance (riposte, parry, dodge) and upping avoidance at one stage of it might make more difference that it seems. i don't know how the game works, specifically (maybe some of you here do). regardless, a lot of the game is by chance. and .2% could be that one hit that would have ruined the encounter for you. if it feels like it works for you - if you like how it feels - then use it. if you don't.... then i guess take it off your hotbar and forget about it. the rest of our spells are good enough to suffice. <span>:smileywink:</span></div>

[Unmask]

<P>An increase in avoidance of 0.2% is 1 more miss every 500 attacks if avoidance works as stated.  However, the avoidance number is only the chance against an even con solo mob.  Your avoidance vs a yellow mob is subtantially less and an epic mob also ignores a portion of your avoidance.  So even if the buff really stops that 1 extra hit in 500 attacks from an even conned solo mob, vs a yellow epic it might only stop the 1 extra hit in say, 5,000 (forget about the orange epic).  </P> <P>Like I said before, it's worthwhile in a group setting but it's for the stun not the extra avoidance (usually).</P> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Crimson Dragon wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Unmasked wrote:<BR> <DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Crimson Dragon wrote:<BR><BR>anyway, i've used it in raids. although the power drain is significant, it seems to make a little difference. when i can spare the power, i'm not afraid to use it. i've got enough regen gear, power taps (manastone), etc to keep my power up most of the time. don't forget that epic targets have defense debuffs too.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>When I cast it on my non raid buffed tank it increases his avoidance by 0.2%.  I just don't even bother casting it anymore outside of group instances.  And it's a whole lot easier, cheaper and faster to cure the debuff than to cast sandstorm.<BR></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>yeah, the numbers are small. i tend to play on instinct... because they don't give us all of the numbers to work with  (we don't see the "roll" on avoidance for the tank or anything like that), there may be a succession of "checks" for avoidance (riposte, parry, dodge) and upping avoidance at one stage of it might make more difference that it seems. i don't know how the game works, specifically (maybe some of you here do). regardless, a lot of the game is by chance. and .2% could be that one hit that would have ruined the encounter for you. if it feels like it works for you - if you like how it feels - then use it. if you don't.... then i guess take it off your hotbar and forget about it. the rest of our spells are good enough to suffice. <SPAN>:smileywink:</SPAN><BR></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>

[slayerwarrior]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Unmasked wrote:<BR> <P>An increase in avoidance of 0.2% is 1 more miss every 500 attacks if avoidance works as stated.  However, the avoidance number is only the chance against an even con solo mob.  Your avoidance vs a yellow mob is subtantially less and an epic mob also ignores a portion of your avoidance.  So even if the buff really stops that 1 extra hit in 500 attacks from an even conned solo mob, vs a yellow epic it might only stop the 1 extra hit in say, 5,000 (forget about the orange epic).  </P> <P>Like I said before, it's worthwhile in a group setting but it's for the stun not the extra avoidance (usually).</P> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Crimson Dragon wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Unmasked wrote:<BR> <DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Crimson Dragon wrote:<BR><BR>anyway, i've used it in raids. although the power drain is significant, it seems to make a little difference. when i can spare the power, i'm not afraid to use it. i've got enough regen gear, power taps (manastone), etc to keep my power up most of the time. don't forget that epic targets have defense debuffs too.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>When I cast it on my non raid buffed tank it increases his avoidance by 0.2%.  I just don't even bother casting it anymore outside of group instances.  And it's a whole lot easier, cheaper and faster to cure the debuff than to cast sandstorm.<BR></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>yeah, the numbers are small. i tend to play on instinct... because they don't give us all of the numbers to work with  (we don't see the "roll" on avoidance for the tank or anything like that), there may be a succession of "checks" for avoidance (riposte, parry, dodge) and upping avoidance at one stage of it might make more difference that it seems. i don't know how the game works, specifically (maybe some of you here do). regardless, a lot of the game is by chance. and .2% could be that one hit that would have ruined the encounter for you. if it feels like it works for you - if you like how it feels - then use it. if you don't.... then i guess take it off your hotbar and forget about it. the rest of our spells are good enough to suffice. <SPAN>:smileywink:</SPAN><BR></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>They do have away fix sandstorm, but it's in templar's agi aa line if u want to just read my post in (why everone think wardens are broke), but it grant them the ability to use a check to avoidance, then recheck,s the avoidance with the spell. So it's allowing to  check avoidance twice once with their on avoidance, then recheck with the spell avoidance.

[mikemcmodmi]

<P>Well I disagree that avoidance means that much.</P> <P>Vs a lvl 74 (yellow) mob our tank was being hit consistently about 85% of the time.  Of those hits, 20% of them were being eaten up by stoneskin.  You tell me what's better, stoneskin or defense.  Now this was on a zerk with a shielder giving a % chance to avoid based on his avoidance.  The temp stoneskin alone was almost just as good as everything the tank had that buffed avoidance along with a shielder.</P> <P>Now I'm not saying avoidance is useless, just that it's benefit is severely limited and there are other things, hps/mitigation/stoneskin, that make a hell of a lot more difference then avoidance.  .2% avoidance is nothing, adding to 50% avoidance for the tank and shielder which adds up to what, less then 15% of the mob's hits total vs a lvl 74 YELLOW epic.  You want to keep the .2% additional avoidance and feel that it's balanced?</P><p>Message Edited by mikemcmodmike on <span class=date_text>04-12-2006</span> <span class=time_text>01:24 PM</span>

[Crimson Dragon]

balanced? of course i don't feel it's balanced.LU13 took care of the balance.<div></div>

[mikemcmodmi]

<P>Yup, sandstorm needs to be fixed.</P> <P>The other thing that is a joke is resists.  Vs certain mobs their attacks are only 50% resistable.  So our wis buffs aren't doing anything at all.  Our buffs are a joke and need to be fixed, or SoE needs to fix their combat system because its way too simplistic.  </P> <P>Even if resists are good vs certain mobs.  Go lookup the ring called 'dragonscale ring'.  It adds 639 to every resists, 110 to health and power, 71 to mitigation.  My friends, 1 legendary ring you could argue is as good as all our buffs combined.  We add 700 to all resists with wis and resist buffs, 321 to health, additional cold/heat buffs though, nothing to mitigation (shaman and clerics mit buffs takes precendence over ours).</P> <P>So the comparision of our buffs vs that one ring:</P> <OL> <LI>We add 61 more to resists </LI> <LI>We add 211 more to health</LI> <LI>Ring adds 71 more to mitigation</LI> <LI>Our solo buffs of attack, tranquilizing spores (damage shield can be put on from an off group by a fury)</LI> <LI>We add 928 to heat and 1160 to cold</LI></OL> <P>This is all with master buffs btw...  So unless you specifically need heat and cold resists and your tank can't max them out, there's a serious argument that 1 ring is equal to all our buffs save tranquilizing spores....  a legendary t7 ring that's a quest reward.  So you think we should be in G1?  hehe.  Or have good buffs?  Can any other healer class besides say a fury say that?  Even then since int isn't capped by tanks ever maybe you can't even say that about them.</P> <P>Oh yes though, we add power and lots more, but i'm talkign about defensive buffs.</P><p>Message Edited by mikemcmodmike on <span class=date_text>04-13-2006</span> <span class=time_text>03:43 PM</span>

[Rappy]

had a level 40 mystic overwrite my buffs this week before i mentored down, my mitigation dropped until he cancelled them.  Why may I ask are these stacking issues still in the game?<div></div>

[Crimson Dragon]

<div></div>deleted remark<p>Message Edited by Crimson Dragon on <span class=date_text>04-15-2006</span> <span class=time_text>11:06 AM</span>

[Barand]

http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=16&message.id=13506this old thread already speak about stacking buff issue. Nothing has changed since then.<div></div>

[Touryn]

Announcing another update.  The primary change was striking evac since the recent LU dropped its cast time down to 3 seconds, making us nearly equivalent to scouts.  Additionally, I did some language changes of the solo, hard group and raid messages.The devs have dropped hints at Fan Faire that they will be working on priest soloing.  This will likely mean further increases to priest DPS and this will only serve to marginalize one of the few advantages we have.As for hard & raid solutions, I have started to argue that moving HP buffing to druids would probably not be a bad idea, considering that it is most compatible with our healing style.  I have also emphasized the possibility of modifying sandstorm (adding mit instead of avoidance) or adding group mana regen.<div></div>

[slayerwarrior]

Who want group mana regen not i!

[Touryn]

I can't say I particularly like the idea of mana regen either.  I feel it is redundant (several classes have it) and only serves to take more things onto our class while leaving the underlying problems unfixed (i.e. a bandaid); however, it was discussed and some people believe it is a viable option so I included it.  I try to include solutions that I don't personally agree with if they are reasonable.  Standards of reasonability are subject to change day to day.<div></div>

[slayerwarrior]

ok , and i know i also said to put overall % of avoidance on it. More in line with are class even rappy in another post said that might work.Thanks i uderstand u need to inclue all ideals.

[mikemcmodmi]

If you're going to ask for mana regen, make sure it's a cast short term mana boost.  If it's a passive buff, then it will factor into the mana regen cap.  So iow, for raiding wardens it will be useless.

[mikemcmodmi]

<P>I've been thinking.  I believe if they change our class to reblance some, devs shouldn't try and do it not through giving us buffs other classes get but something new.  If we just added hps or mitigation it wouldn't be anything terribly new.</P> <P>Here are some ideas:</P> <OL> <LI>Spell shield instead of resists from wisdom.  No one actually cares about wisdom per say, it's the resists their after.  Why not give us a spell shield absorbing say 10% of all magical attacks.</LI> <LI>Instead of buffing defense have sandstorm add a buff like 'dodge 10% of all incoming attacks'.  We got a drop from Lycatheum the other day.  Leather gloves that are a set buff of 'dodge 2% of incoming attacks' that gave me the idea.  Forget avoidance, just a set % no matter what you're fighting so it has utility vs orange cons.</LI></OL> <P>These above are what the devs had in mind when they designed our class sorta, it's just the combat system doesn't really fit what they gave us so our buffs aren't doing much.  I'd take HPs or mitigation too, but one of these ideas might be nice and we'd be going in the direction the devs intended the class to go, just adding some eficacy to our buffs.</P><p>Message Edited by mikemcmodmike on <span class=date_text>04-17-2006</span> <span class=time_text>04:59 PM</span>

[Barand]

I would love something like that, both would help us doing our job regardless of the cap. Last night sandstorm didn't move the avoidance a bit on our MT (was something like 65% so not at the cap). He has no uber geared, 2 piece of fabled T7 and the other are T6 fabled. Defense cap is reach too easily, same for resist cap (at least individually). And it will be even worse as the game goes on. The more gear we will get the less usefull i will be. Next tier will be even worse the cap will not move by a huge margin so our buff will be useless from start to end. <div></div>

[Touryn]

Since the concensus has formed that our buffs suck and are the core of miscontent (without creating balance issues or going outside the scope of the class), I'm probably going to introduce a nice long section on it.  I think it needs a lot more than "here's a problem, this is the menu of fixes we want."<div></div>

[Formangenavn]

Vs shammys I would like to say that our buffs actually has to be BETTER then theirs to compensate for the lack of debuffs. Vs clerics its a bit different, since their debuffs arnt that good it seems, especially Templars. Still better then what we have, but nothing gamebreaking.

[Rappy]

At level 60 we buffed the following differently to shamen - at best:<ul><li>321 HP -- (1630 HP less than a defiler and 643 HP less than a mystic who also buff 134 stamina which for a warden translate as approximately 600HP)</li><li>738 Power -- (246 Power more than a defiler and identical to a mystic)</li><li>Elemental resists -- (identical amounts to comparable resists to noxious for the shamen)</li><li>188 resists to all magical types of damage -- (14 more than a defiler and 188 more than a mystic who gets an 87pt ward which is constantly on and regenerates for all types of damage)</li><li>183 wisdom which translates into about 700 power unless you hit the hard cap (which most do)  -- (mystics and defilers do not buff wisdom)</li><li>75 agility translates into about 3% avoidance (most raid tanks cap their avoidance without this buff so it's effect is negligable on a raid) -- (16 more than a mystic and defiler do not buff agility)</li><li>52 to offense skills (translates into about +80 attack - equivalent of buffing 150 strength on a warden not sure if it is different for other classes) -- (Mystic buff 134 str and defiler buff 75 str)</li><li>Proc heal (defilers get a proc slow here)</li><li>Damage shield (defilers get a proc dot debuff here)</li></ul>

[Barand]

About buffing more power you may take into account that warden got the less power/lvl. (dont have stat on this, it may be wrong, just based on observation) If i put aspect of the hawk on a templar he  get something like 600 more power than me even without reaching the cap. <div></div>

[Dragonreal]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Rappy wrote:<BR>At level 60 we buffed the following differently to shamen - at best:<BR> <UL> <LI>321 HP -- (1630 HP less than a defiler and 643 HP less than a mystic who also buff 134 stamina which for a warden translate as approximately 600HP)<BR></LI> <LI>738 Power -- (246 Power more than a defiler and identical to a mystic)</LI> <LI>Elemental resists -- (identical amounts to comparable resists to noxious for the shamen)</LI> <LI><STRONG>188 resists to all magical types of damage -- (14 more than a defiler and 188 more than a mystic who gets an 87pt ward which is constantly on and regenerates for all types of damage)</STRONG></LI> <LI>183 wisdom which translates into about 700 power unless you hit the hard cap (which most do)  -- (mystics and defilers do not buff wisdom)</LI> <LI>75 agility translates into about 3% avoidance (most raid tanks cap their avoidance without this buff so it's effect is negligable on a raid) -- (16 more than a mystic and defiler do not buff agility)</LI> <LI>52 to offense skills (translates into about +80 attack - equivalent of buffing 150 strength on a warden not sure if it is different for other classes) -- (Mystic buff 134 str and defiler buff 75 str)</LI> <LI>Proc heal (defilers get a proc slow here)</LI> <LI>Damage shield (defilers get a proc dot debuff here)</LI></UL><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Bolded part is a lil incorrect: mystics get a regerating ward for physical damage ONLY and defilers get a regenerating ward for magical damage ONLY.. which means that defilers are probably equal to us in regards to the mit buff because they have a ward to soack up a little bit of damage while we have resists to make that damage not hit as hard. this is all talking about just the mitigation buff.. the resists defilers get is on a different buff; I'll check which one later cuz I have to go to raids now.<BR>

[Rappy]

The info i got this from was Sokolov.. that everso reliable creator of the so called healing guide<div></div>

[Dragonreal]

okay well looking at my lvl 40 defiler, there is no resist buff at all.. uhm I know there's a debuff for wis and agi and int(?) at like 45.. maelstrom at 50, single target only dmg proc, and the ancient spells none of which are a buff. So wherever this resist buff to grp is coming from is a mystery to me unless I'm just missing something coming up in the levels /shrug

[Rappy]

<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> was being a little sarcastic when i said reliable, he's been wrong before mate, you are probably correct.<div></div>

[Touryn]

Another update to this thread.  I added a big block about buffing as I threatened to do.  I will need to revise it in the near future, to make it more quantative and direct in comparisons, but it should have the bulk of what needs to be discussed.It would also be nice if this could be stickied so it doesn't fall off the front page in time.  (Wasn't as big as a concern when it was active)<div></div>

[Velkorb]

<P>Didnt read anywhere else in the forum due to the fact that this is the "compiled" list of things that are wrong with our class. </P> <P>I think that we need to put something in there about how the Infusion at the end of our INT line is completely useless in its current state. In a raid it seems somewhat of a small help because it will help to burn down adds while we are chain healing our status cures, hots, and direct heals. But in actuality it does not do what it sais it is supposed to do (Damage to all targets in area) and since it is only one completely random target in the area it should do a substantial amount of damage. With a INT of 428 it will do roughly 80 damage to a single target. The text of this spell leads you to beleve that it will do 100+ damage to ALL targets in the area. </P> <P> </P> <P>Meeks</P>

[Touryn]

I need to address the AAs more fully in the future, so I'm following the various threads that are centering on them.  In terms of the druid top level abilities, I don't believe any of them are so compelling as to be 'must haves'.  I haven't compared our line to other classes (but others have), as I feel it is minor compared to other problems (such as buffs).  I'll spend more time when I have time (final weeks of the semester always get hectic) or the major issues are resolved.<div></div>

[NimSul]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Rappy wrote:<BR><img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> was being a little sarcastic when i said reliable, he's been wrong before mate, you are probably correct.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Solokov is wrong in that matter :smileywink:</P> <P>BTW if you want to compare wardens to defilers i suggest you take a look at this thread here:</P> <P><A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=20&message.id=5907" target=_blank>http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=20&message.id=5907</A></P> <P>has all the info on all the defiler spells you would ever want, and then some hehe.</P> <P>enjoy.</P>

[mikemcmodmi]

<P>Defilers don't get resists buffs, what they get is a 214 or so magical ward against all damage.  It tends to regenerate fully every magical hit, but it's not the same as resists... you could even say it's better but it's totally a matter of opinion.</P> <P>Something else of concern.  Our raid tank is fully fabled save for shoulders that are legendary from the claymore questline that are better then fabled and gloves.  For gloves he has the legendary gloves that drop in Lab.  His self buffed resists are heat and cold over 6k (past cap) and everything else from 2-3k.  So about our elemental resists being useless, it's almost like SoE DESIGNED them to be useless through itemization.  They made it so any raid tank can self buff elemental to cap and only needs nox and arcane resists.  This also isn't with the tank trying to max out his elemental resists, he is trying to max his mitigation too....</P> <P>I was a little ticked when I noticed this, guess they don't want people to even put a druid in Group 1.... which means you'd always prefer a fury in an off group for offensive buffs.... which means there's no need to ever bring a Warden to a raid.</P> <P>Mayi - LoC</P><p>Message Edited by mikemcmodmike on <span class=date_text>04-24-2006</span> <span class=time_text>11:46 AM</span>

[Unmask]

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> mikemcmodmike wrote:<BR> <P>Something else of concern.  Our raid tank is fully fabled save for shoulders that are legendary from the claymore questline that are better then fabled and gloves.  For gloves he has the legendary gloves that drop in Lab.  His self buffed resists are heat and cold over 6k (past cap) and everything else from 2-3k.  So about our elemental resists being useless, it's almost like SoE DESIGNED them to be useless through itemization.  They made it so any raid tank can self buff elemental to cap and only needs nox and arcane resists.  This also isn't with the tank trying to max out his elemental resists, he is trying to max his mitigation too....</P> <P>I was a little ticked when I noticed this, guess they don't want people to even put a druid in Group 1.... which means you'd always prefer a fury in an off group for offensive buffs.... which means there's no need to ever bring a Warden to a raid.</P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>It really depends on how many different items he has for each slot.  His current set up might be max HP/mit but another set up might give him much better arcane or nox resists and less elemental or mit or HP.

[mikemcmodmi]

Well this is with his best mitigation/hp equipement, iow without trying to raise any one resist.  If he was a guardian he might not have been capped cold, but still this is the way it worked out.  Makes me sad, I'm the raid leader and I've decided to dump the druid out of G1 for a crusader.  Now if only I get can get the cleric or shaman to cure those slackers.....

[Sorano]

<P>I take it you dumping the druid because you are running a coercer/dirge combo in there? I don't really see the value of doing that.  Granted no one can beat a coercer in sheer power regen ability and the dirge has the nice group AE immunity buff/stoneskin, but I wouldn't sacrifice the druid for the both of them. Is your tank having issues holding aggro or something?</P> <P>Just as a matter of interest how many healers do you normally take? We average 5-6 and have finished Lyceum and Lab with that many. There are no mobs in those zones that can keep up with a cleric/shaman/druid MT group setup.</P> <P> </P>

[mikemcmodmi]

<P>We run 5-7 healers.  With 5 healers you run into the problem that each group doesn't have a healer, for clearing Lab it would be impossible to clear unless each group had a healer so you couldn't run druid/shaman/cleric in G1.  For Lycaeum, we've never cleared it with 5 healers and I think the least we've done it with is 6, I could see it being doable though with 5 we've just never tried.</P> <P>For Vymnn especially, it's not about healing on the MT I've found.  It's about the mem wipe on the G-flux and keeping the groups up through the AoE.  Palladins also buff mitigation and can ward but only from group1, plus have group heals and do a decent job group healing.  If you're going to have someone do a job all they have to do is do a decent job at it, just enough.  Our AoE healing is sort of overkill (example I still use my lvl 56 master group heal because it costs less power).  A palladin can do a decent job group healing which is all you need, plus buff in ways we can't (mitigation) plus can ward for 1200 as well.   That's a lot compared to spores and the attack buff that a Warden offers.</P><p>Message Edited by mikemcmodmike on <span class=date_text>04-25-2006</span> <span class=time_text>12:03 PM</span>

[Sorano]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> mikemcmodmike wrote:<BR> <P>We run 5-7 healers.  With 5 healers you run into the problem that each group doesn't have a healer, for clearing Lab it would be impossible to clear unless each group had a healer so you couldn't run druid/shaman/cleric in G1.  For Lycaeum, we've never cleared it with 5 healers and I think the least we've done it with is 6, I could see it being doable though with 5 we've just never tried.</P> <P>For Vymnn especially, it's not about healing on the MT I've found.  It's about the mem wipe on the G-flux and keeping the groups up through the AoE.  Palladins also buff mitigation and can ward but only from group1, plus have group heals and do a decent job group healing.  If you're going to have someone do a job all they have to do is do a decent job at it, just enough.  Our AoE healing is sort of overkill (example I still use my lvl 56 master group heal because it costs less power).  A palladin can do a decent job group healing which is all you need, plus buff in ways we can't (mitigation) plus can ward for 1200 as well.   That's a lot compared to spores and the attack buff that a Warden offers.</P> <P>Message Edited by mikemcmodmike on <SPAN class=date_text>04-25-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>12:03 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>We've done Vyemm with 5 healers before, 3 of which were in the MT group. It's certainly doable. Is your tank struggling for mitigation that you need a pally and conjy in g1?</P> <P> Although really speaking, the only mobs that actually require healing IMHO is Gnillaw the Demented and Priest at the end of Lyceum. And even they only require you to spam heals, no real challenge in any of the zones really.You could pretty much AFK all the other encounters since the tank takes hardly any damage.<BR></P>

[mikemcmodmi]

<P>I wouldn't say that tank takes hardly any damage.  Most raid mobs still parse from like 1.5k dps fully debuffed, I'd hardly say that the tank doesn't require any healing.  The tank being hit every 2 secs for 3k still adds up to a lot and needs healing especially with a damage spike.  Our MT hits near mit cap at 5700 mitigation with no shielder and just the shaman mitigation buff (didn't go wis line) but vs lvl 74+ mobs it's always good to go past mitigation cap.  Your tank probably went wisdom line for extra mitigation so he doesn't need a shielder but ours went str and agi for extra hate.</P>

[Sorano]

<P><BR>On most named mobs I could hit HA, go afk and come back and the tank would still be in the green. There really is no challenge to Lyceum and Lab. Just for kicks the other day we got our wizard to pull and then tank a 72 epicx4 in Lyceum. We kept him up no sweat. He held aggro just fine and even parsed number 3 for DPS. He is never going to let out MT forget that one :smileyvery-happy:</P> <P>But yeah back to the original point, 5.7k mitigation is a bit low. Our MT sits a full 1k over that, so maybe that's what's making a difference in terms of heals. Maybe you should consider sticking a fury in there and getting them to porcupine. Sounds like you could really use the mit boost.</P>

[Unmask]

Once LU23 comes out and we see shammies parse we'll know the trueth.  It's all going to the wards. :p

[slayerwarrior]

<BLOCKQUOTE><HR>Unmasked wrote:Once LU23 comes out and we see shammies parse we'll know the trueth.  It's all going to the wards. :p<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>off topic lol i wonder if shamans are scared. plus the thread needs a bump or needs to be sticky.<p>Message Edited by slayerwarrior on <span class=date_text>04-27-2006</span> <span class=time_text>09:31 PM</span>

[mikemcmodmi]

<P>I donno, I sort of thought that shamans would always win heal parses if they showed up all along.  Maybe we're supposed to be the average single target healing but best AoE healer.  Then Shamans are supposed to be the best single target healer but weakest AoE healer.</P> <P>It's hard to say because there has never been healing tiers like dps tiers.  All we know is that healing is supposed to be even, but that might just be the numbers and times on our direct heals.  Beyond that hot vs ward vs reactive each has their strength and some healers are better offensive buffers and some defensive, and then there are Wardens <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P>

[Icemaoh]

ok now i love my class i have absolutly no issues wiht the class i dont understand why you wardens complain about the class you play i mean com on you keep complainin and a necro will outheal us on parsers jsut stop this class is not broke jsut learn to play it <div></div>

[Dragonreal]

<DIV>ehh it's not that it's broken.. it's just really messed up in the buffs/debuffs/utility department.. TW does not serve its intended purpose (nor does the single target version).. duststorm line just has way too many penalties to be worth it... tranquility is uncastable because of its horribly long cast time.. agi and wis both have not very much effect on things... hg line I really have no issues with atm but I'm pretty sure that'll change before the spell gets replaced due to getting upgrades of normal heal lines before HA upgrade comes along. So really it's just that most of our special spells really aren't all that special =/</DIV>

[xenocyst]

<div><blockquote><hr>DaKrystalKiller wrote:ok now i love my class i have absolutly no issues wiht the class i dont understand why you wardens complain about the class you play i mean com on you keep complainin and a necro will outheal us on parsers jsut stop this class is not broke jsut learn to play it <div></div><hr></blockquote>Grats on your first post. Glad to have another constructive warden on these boards. Good thing none of the best wardens gamewide post constructive, informed arguments here outlining what our weaknesses are. Glad that the whole thing boils down to us being whiners and not knowing how to play, that takes a real load off my mind. Glad to find out that all these moroons on the boards are full of [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]. Send me a tell in game sometime (befallen.tastiest), I like talking to people who, like me, think they are the only person ww that can actually play a warden.</div>

[Touryn]

<div></div>Been two months since the last update and I don't have much to add.  The changes we got with the adventure pack have been patched in, but as I have not had much time to play, I can't really comment on them firsthand (not expecting any miracles).  With the puppy nerf, I'll probably be forced to drop the solo/small group ranking down as the big reason for the advantage (dps) has been mitigated by our dps decreases and every other priest's dps increase.EDIT: Nice to see the thread was finally sticked.<div></div><p>Message Edited by Touryn on <span class=date_text>06-17-2006</span> <span class=time_text>11:04 AM</span>

[Shennr]

<P>I guess I don't know how constructive my posts are and I do agree with you sometimes xeno that I can be rude on these boards.  Sometimes I do find that it is easier to get peoples attentions when I say "hey [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] are you doing" instead of "how are things going on over there".  Even though I do agree that it can make people mad. However, I myself try not to do that too much as it will only lead to bad arguements like name calling and your mother jokes.</P> <P>As a raiding Warden it is much more apparent of the inbalance between the priest classes then just grouping. Not to say that we are completely useless but rather just less useful then others.</P> <P>A lot of our previous nerfs are side effects of nerfing other classes. Our swarm pets are reduced because the summoners were getting their dps lowered. Our stun buff was reduced cause of all the other classes that had stuns from their melee combat arts.  Our roots have been changed along with all the mages, dont know for better or worse as I have not been online in a LONG WHILE. If you look back almost a year ago even our defense buff was reduced in effectiveness due to how much 1 guardian could get.  The only real change to Warden's that was directly focused at them I would say was in LU13 with our heals dramatically changed.  A lot of this would lead people to believe that the Devs do not pay attention to the Warden class.</P> <P><FONT color=#ff0000>Some of our disadvantages to our class would include how much benefit the stat buff that we get really advantages one group. 75 agi/wis group plus 108 wis single target master buffs give near to no benefit if you check how much resists and avoidance you get. While other priests stat buff increase Str, Sta, and Int which are all highly desired by the other 3 archtypes. Even if your in a group of priests you have gone above and beyond what the cap of wisdom is and reduce the benefit that the wisdom buffs provide. </FONT><FONT color=#cccc33>Sandstorm has virtually no upgrade from duststorm which is by the way 2 tiers lower. Even the effectiveness of the defense buff was lowered and is really only beneficial to both Crusaders and the Berserker in groups. The Brawlers and a guardian can be capped out of the defence modifier before you even enter the group.  The root effect makes the spell also situational with a 3 min duration and 30 recast.  It can be argued that the power drain is detrimental too. </FONT><FONT color=#6633ff>The second effect on our mit buff is the magic resist buff. The ratio on this buff is off as a defiler can ward for the exact same number as how much our resist buff gives, I think the numbers are 240 at master level. The ward will always prevent 240 damage but adding 240 resist when the cap is near 6000 solo is never going to prevent anywhere near 240 damage. While other classes like Fury's, who get a high regen, and Templar's, who get even more hp.  If you are in a group with any other type of priest and your mit buffs are the same level then a Warden should always be the first to drop his/hers. </FONT><FONT color=#66cc00>The offensive skill modifier is only really usefull against encounters that are 5 levels higher then you. You will barely notice any difference otherwise and many tanks can tell you the same.  At the time that I was playing last the only orange con mob that was in the game was Terinax who would also strip this buff off within the first few seconds into the fight.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffffff>Heals and DPS can be argued depending on the playstyle and skill but what is listed above is indeed undeniable true. I hope this was a constructive post for you.</FONT></P>

[pedigr]

<div><blockquote><hr><div><ol><li><span><b>Cure Arcane and Charm (All Priests)</b>Curing arcane from a charmed mob will break the charm, typically ending up with a dead enchanter. I can understand the difficulty in fixing this, as we also want to retain the ability to cure hostile charms placed on group members.<font color="#ffcc00"><b>Priority:</b></font> Low</span></li></ol></div><hr></blockquote>Why should this be hard to fix if the game is coded properly?if ( monster[thatone][charmed]) { dont break charm }</div>

[pedigr]

<div><blockquote><hr>Touryn wrote:<div></div> our dps decreases and every other priest's dps increase.EDIT: Nice to see the thread was finally sticked.<div></div><hr></blockquote>Yeah, nerfing dps, what a great idea that was...  Furies way out dps us and they get a dps increase?  You have to ask yourself "who thought that that was a good idea"As for the sticky, well, thats a good thing to see.  It means that at least a moderator thinks its a valid thread.  Now we just have to pray that a dev will notice it and take your great post seriously.</div>

[Formangenavn]

This thread was stickied shortly (within one day) after I pm'ed a Mod. I can not be 100 % sure thats why it was stickied, but saying they suddenly think this is an important thread to them is hoping for more then what is good for us. Thats what I think anyway :smileywink:

[MysidiaDrakkenbane]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> <OL> <LI><B>Protecting Grove</B><BR>This spell does not scale as we level, significantly losing utility in higher levels.  Additionally, as its explicit purpose is to heal the group, its primary purpose on a raid or group is to recover from AEs.  However, it is unable survive the AEs that it would be ideal for healing.  As an additional concern, many casters and ranged DPS find the large tree obstructing their vision and creating difficulties, a case were flavor has introduced real usability problems.<BR><FONT color=#ffcc00><B>Suggestion:</B></FONT> Have the tree scale with level like most dumbfire pets.  Make the tree immune to AE attacks unless targetted.  Make the tree smaller to be less intrusive.<BR><FONT color=#ffcc00><B>Priority:</B></FONT> Medium<BR>[14 June 2006] Increased hit points of tree by 250% with a disadventageous change to timing mechanics.  Most complaints still stand.<BR></LI></OL><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>FWIW (For What Its Worth), I find if you "plant" the tree in a column or a wall, it still does its job of healing and it's out of everyone's way. <BR>

[pedigr]

<div><blockquote><hr>Formangenavn wrote:<div></div>This thread was stickied shortly (within one day) after I pm'ed a Mod. I can not be 100 % sure thats why it was stickied, but saying they suddenly think this is an important thread to them is hoping for more then what is good for us. Thats what I think anyway :smileywink:<hr></blockquote>My point exactly <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  Since the modertors "sanction" people who dont like the devs and what they do, we can only hope that, in passing one day, that this thread might catch a bored devs eye.  We can hope that hes so bored that he might read it.  We can only then grasp at the slightest of slight, that he actions them.  Oh how I miss Christmas</div>

[mikemcmodmi]

<P>I think devs are aware of how we feel, but from looking at other threads lots of people still feel we're overpowered.  There was a thread in the inquis forums where someone said something to that affect.  The opinions vary back and forth with people thinking we're overpowered if they don't raid and aren't at cap to not thinking that way where they're raiding.</P> <P>I don't think it would take much to rebalance us either.  I'm expecting something this coming expansion through class specific AAs.  There were TONS of nurf furies in the templar forum back in T6 so I believe that's why we got weak AAs.  It's a side effects of toning furies down a bit.  Now that there are class specific AAs coming they can do something with each specific class without effecting it's other alignment subclass (ranger vs assassin dps for example).</P> <P>Maybe I'm just being optomistic but I think something will be done.  From looking through every 'MT group' thread most people aren't including Wardens in there, so I believe we'll get something finally added to our buffs to put us back in the strong buffing category.  Hopefully it will be like it was back in T5 where you always wanted a Warden in G1 for our great buffs.</P>

[commieb]

This thread could really use some PvP only information. The dynamics of wardens are vastly different there compared to elsewhere. For instance dumbfire pets vs pvp targets are EXTREMELY weak. Stealthers/Monks can just stealth/fd and they are off, and everyone else can use a weak ae or even just run away a little! They really are worthless in pvp, and considering how large of an amount of damage they are in PvE it seems only right they would be worth something in pvpRoot Immunity Timer: CC is a touchy subject with PvP but it seems to me that the root immunity timer is extremely long for how short it tends to last in pvp. This is compounded by the incredibly short mezz/stun immunity timersAlso, there are a few issues I dont think are getting the attention they needHoT's not stacking, at least partially, or at all, with Furys/WardensHeirophants Advent/Genesis needs to be beefed up for the cost of stunning us.Tranquility's lack of dependability. Sometimes it cures 1 spell, sometimes it cures like 7. It needs to be more dependable for such a long cast time/reuse timeEven with 250% more hp, the tree still gets 1 shotted by any ae i encounter @ level 70.And issues that seem overembelished: Tunare's Watch and Nature's Regrowth are nice spells. Lifesavers on pvp.Other than that, not being wanted in a raid is kinda dishearting. <div></div>

[Shizzirri]

<DIV>I don't see how we're overpowered.  I have to go all out nuking in order to make the dps parse in our raids, I'm never on top healing.  We may be power efficient but we run out of power just as fast if were using group heals, cures etc.  Our buffs are decent but we lack solid hp buffs that cleric/shaman have.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Haven't really read up on this thread much (too lazy) but here's my two cents</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>1.  "Druid Gear" including relic, animist, crafted etc is more geared towards furies, it all has wisdom and lots of it, wardens need gear with more int/stam and nox/arcane resists vs elemental.  We don't need excessive amounts of wisdom/ele resist, etc on our armor because we buff it.  Yet either all I see dropping in terms of leather is armor with stam/wis which is supposedly targetting druids or the brawler gear with str/stam/agil.  Most raiding wardens have at least adept 3 or master of their buffs which allow them to buff about 100 wisdom with aspect of the hawk (106 master) and about 66 ad3 / 75 master wisdom with benediction giving us like 30% of the wisdom cap just from our buffs.  What sony needs to do is give furies armor that gears towards wisdom (because they buff int not wis) and us armor that is geared toward int (because we buff wisdom).  I like seeing myself in fabled armor but I hate seeing myself in armor that leads me to having 600+ wisdom when at least 100 of that isn't doing me any good.  (ok I stole part of this from Disso's web page), heck even awakened scalelord has the same stats on every piece of armor (wis/stam or agility I forgot).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>2.  Wisdom AAs the auto rezz is not worth it for one the cost and two let's say you do come back to life, note that you have already taken a "armor hit" so if you we're fully repaired you are at 90%.  You come back at 50% when your raid wipes or group wipes whatever, you die again you take another armor hit so your at 80%, raiders in general have a heavy repair bill and we will not be inclined at all to take this skill because of the AA cost and this little fact.  This spell should probably work more like visions of madness where the zerker doesn't take an armor hit when his health goes below 0.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>3.  Infusion, for the cost of 8 aa's again not worth it, for minimal damage of like 150-200 damage every beneficial spell you gotta be kidding me, for an ability at the end of what is probably our best aa line.  The damage should probably be more imo especially if your spending 8 achievenment points etc.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>4.  Overwriting heals, it drives me nuts when I"m in the main tank group and I have greater chloro on the tank and a lesser version of the spell or the fury version overwrites this, this is probably me just venting etc but its still annoying, and I still think the fury equal of this spell at adept 3 heals for more than ours at adept 3 but again that's probably me going nuts. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>5.  Serene symbol is nice but it needs to be more useful, ie it should dispell more things, including charm on a tank because that would probably qualify under the spell's description.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>6. That skill after serene symbol, um ok lol at that one.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>7.  Our dps is fine it shouldn't be nerfed or whatever in fact I'd argue it should be upp'ed because what other utility do we have other than our healing/buffs.  We don't have any major debuffs other than glacial cold (shaman own us there), we don't have solid hp buffs (clerics and shaman own us here), our rezzes are a joke etc</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Either way to those who think we're overpowered I just laugh yes we have dps but we have to machine gun nuke to get it, personally I'm in the MT group but I'm the best geared druid in our guild so odd's are I"m going to end up there most the time, it really depends some guilds have better geared/skilled furies so they go, there's tradeoffs to having each but in the end I think the warden suits better in the MT group, both work.  I just find myself wondering what to do more outside the MT group.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Touryn]

<div><blockquote><hr>commiebob wrote:This thread could really use some PvP only information. The dynamics of wardens are vastly different there compared to elsewhere. <hr size="2" width="100%"></blockquote>Adding PvP would be appropriate.  I don't play it, so am therefore unable to post anything about it.  We need to be sure to include the good (I've heard people say good things about druids in PvP) as it makes the post sound more like constructive feedback and less like whining.<blockquote><hr size="2" width="100%">For instance dumbfire pets vs pvp targets are EXTREMELY weak. Stealthers/Monks can just stealth/fd and they are off, and everyone else can use a weak ae or even just run away a little! They really are worthless in pvp, and considering how large of an amount of damage they are in PvE it seems only right they would be worth something in pvp<hr size="2" width="100%"></blockquote>Given that the dumbfire are more of a fun spell to us, while Summoners absolutely depend on them, it would be interesting to see how they deal with the problem.  However, we need to propose a solution.  Possibly leaving the effect on a stealthed/fd'd individual, but just disabling the damage could be a compromise.  Sure you don't get hurt by the effect, but you have to sit out of the fight to do it.  Anything more and it will be passed off as a stealth/fd nerf.  AE's are a problem (for us) that is likely to stay and running seems more like a bug/oversight.<blockquote><hr size="2" width="100%">Root Immunity Timer: CC is a touchy subject with PvP but it seems to me that the root immunity timer is extremely long for how short it tends to last in pvp. This is compounded by the incredibly short mezz/stun immunity timers<hr size="2" width="100%"></blockquote>Do you have the timers?  Length of root and immunity.  Length of mezz/stun and immunity.<blockquote><hr size="2" width="100%">Also, there are a few issues I dont think are getting the attention they needHoT's not stacking, at least partially, or at all, with Furys/Wardens<hr size="2" width="100%"></blockquote>It is intential by the devs.  (assuming you are referring to the Chloro/Regen lines)<blockquote><hr size="2" width="100%">Heirophants Advent/Genesis needs to be beefed up for the cost of stunning us.<hr size="2" width="100%"></blockquote>It's on there.<blockquote><hr size="2" width="100%">Tranquility's lack of dependability. Sometimes it cures 1 spell, sometimes it cures like 7. It needs to be more dependable for such a long cast time/reuse timeEven with 250% more hp, the tree still gets 1 shotted by any ae i encounter @ level 70.<hr size="2" width="100%"></blockquote>These should already be on the list.  However, as things go, broken spells that lie within our strength (healing) should have lower priority than breakages within our weaknesses (raid buffing).<blockquote><hr size="2" width="100%">And issues that seem overembelished: Tunare's Watch and Nature's Regrowth are nice spells. Lifesavers on pvp.<hr size="2" width="100%"></blockquote>You aren't the only one that gets defense about those spells.  We can't complain about Nature's Regrowth.  All priests get that spell and other than the +WIS and regen, the effect is equivalent to other priests.  Tunare's Watch is different.  Even if you have successfully use it, it's tough to argue to the average player that it is as useful as the lvl52 utility spell other priests get.  I imagine the reason we get so worked up about it is that our partners in crime, Furies, get a heal (either BITF or hibernation, I can't remember which) that is actually useful and doesn't require a seance just to get it to do something on a lifetime timer.However, even if it proves to be a stunningly vital spell in PvP that makes Wardens absolutely required in those groups, PvE shouldn't have to suffer with a lackluster spell.  The inverse should not be true either.<blockquote><hr size="2" width="100%">Other than that, not being wanted in a raid is kinda dishearting. <div></div><hr></blockquote>I imagine any mention of not wanted on a raid is probably exaggerated.  Other than the min-maxing hardcore raiding guilds, your average raid is just looking for HP batteries.  If you need six healers, even those guilds will pick up a warden for a slot.  Outside of that, we just don't feel we are as necessary to the success of a raid as a templar or defiler since as far as raid utility goes, we are primarily just HP batteries.Another update to the list will come.  Various things need to be cleaned up.  Possibly this weekend.</div>

[chilidog8]

The Heirophants i've finally got a use for.. 100% power draining mobs, i.e. pain and suffering in Halls of seeing.  Not too tough of a mob, you can have the healers rotate their "Heirophants" for the power regen mostly, and it's a respectable heal Way too situational though still.. Tunare's still a waste to me, since it's our ancient line...  would have rather had something like another group cure or something. <blockquote><hr>commiebob wrote:Heirophants Advent/Genesis needs to be beefed up for the cost of stunning us.And issues that seem overembelished: Tunare's Watch and Nature's Regrowth are nice spells. Lifesavers on pvp.Other than that, not being wanted in a raid is kinda dishearting. <div></div><hr></blockquote><div></div>

[mikemcmodmi]

<P>Well I agree we aren't overpowered either, but it comes back to the original post and I like how it's broken down.  For light xping we're a very strong healer when we can nuke stuff down.  For more difficult content we're average and can hold our own pretty easily.  If another class compares themselves to us in light xping they could think we're overpowered because we have the ability to nuke and heal while a class like a mystic doesn't have that advantage.</P> <P>As for raiding our healing is fine, it's just buffing where we're lacking.  I'm always in the top 50% of healers without exception.  The problem is weak buffs where we can only proceed if other healing classes come out to raid.  You can raid without a warden or fury, it's just harder.  Try raiding without a shaman and you'll see what I mean.</P>

[Shizzirri]

<P>This is nothing different than the whole guardians vs brawlers garbage, there's like 2 wardens who are able to solo some yellow named mob and that causes some huge OMG wardens are overpowered nerf them crying.  Guardians have done it to brawlers, its nothing new.  I'm sure very few people in this forum could solo a yellow heroic named anyway.  As for our heals being overpowered, there not ours usually are last to hit (wards are usually first then reactives) yes they cast fast but they don't heal for much up front, spike damage is a huge problem for us etc.</P> <P>Back to the whole soloing thing from my experiences trying named the best I've done is a 68 named, it took a long time, and mainly relyed on me landing blessing of faith three times during the fight.</P>

[commieb]

I think our 46sec root has a 45sec immunity timer that gets attached, no matter if you were rooted for half a second or for 45seconds. As for Mezz, i dont know what the immunity on it is for sure but i know its much shorter. And stuns immunity is almost non exisistent it seems. As for the dumbfire, i like your idea but really all I was looking for was an increase in speed on them so they keep up with people who run in circles and so they still attack. So just moving a little doesnt nullify our greatest damage as well as necros and various otherssorry for rehashing old stuff, still new to the warden class even though im 70. never played one up on a pve server<div></div>

[Unmask]

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Shennron wrote:<BR> <P>Our roots have been changed along with all the mages, dont know for better or worse as I have not been online in a LONG WHILE.</P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Our roots are improved overall which improves our soloing ability.  Our roots now have a 5% chance to break but only on damage - hostile actions no longer break roots.  Our AE root now lasts as long as the single target root.  Our deaggro root now lasts 23s instead of 17s.</P> <P>The only downside is that you need to use your most up to date roots or risk having added resistability.  Personally I am glad they added this as otherwise there was no real reason to upgrade your root.  Until LU 24, the only upgrade to a lower tier master root was a higher tier master root and only due to the duration of the root.<BR></P>

[Unmask]

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> commiebob wrote:<BR>I think our 46sec root has a 45sec immunity timer that gets attached, no matter if you were rooted for half a second or for 45seconds. As for Mezz, i dont know what the immunity on it is for sure but i know its much shorter. And stuns immunity is almost non exisistent it seems.<BR><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Both our T7 roots are 46s.  The AE root has a 20s recast timer and the single target root has a 10s recast timer and maybe thats what you are thinking of.  There is no immunity timer, at least not on PVE mobs.  Maybe something was added for PVP? <BR>

[commieb]

Yes, the 45sec immunity is in pvp only. That is what i am referring to<div></div>

[Arielle Nightshade]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> commiebob wrote:<BR>I think our 46sec root has a 45sec immunity timer that gets attached, no matter if you were rooted for half a second or for 45seconds. As for Mezz, i dont know what the immunity on it is for sure but i know its much shorter. And stuns immunity is almost non exisistent it seems. <BR><BR>As for the dumbfire, i like your idea but really all I was looking for was an increase in speed on them so they keep up with people who run in circles and so they still attack. So just moving a little doesnt nullify our greatest damage as well as necros and various others<BR><BR>sorry for rehashing old stuff, still new to the warden class even though im 70. never played one up on a pve server<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Agree here.   The AA stun immunity behaves as though it wasn't even cast.  It certainly does not adhere to the description.    I also agree with the Wolves assessment.   Let me cast them and let them stick.   I would like to see them in the same category of 'pet' as the SK's Tainted Sacrament.  You can't dispel my dogs, you have to kill them.  They can be outrun, but they can' get 'lost' like they seem to be doing now.</P> <P>The big difference in PvE vs. PvP Wardenage is mindset.   Your spells and 'role' are set up to be defensive (indeed that defines the class), but in PvP you are called upon to be anything but.  So a PvP Warden is having to find workarounds for some of our abilities (or so it seems), instead of using them to the fullest.   It would also be nice to have JUST ONE spell of any kind..heal, damage, evac..anything..that can be cast running.<BR></P><p>Message Edited by Arielle Nightshade on <span class=date_text>06-23-2006</span> <span class=time_text>10:57 PM</span>

[Clink]

...

[Barand]

i have to agree on the dispell things !I want them to be not curable or make the pet of gnorbl the playful curable too !!<div></div>

[Arielle Nightshade]

<DIV>Duststorm/Sandstorm.....</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Since this effect roots us such that we have to click it off to move - I'd like to see it root me to my ADVANTAGE as well.  If I can't move, I should not be able to BE moved either.  Any spell used against me that has a knock BACK component should not work.    Knock DOWN, interrupt, etc....are all different things, and are acceptable (well, sort of <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> ).   I should not be able to be moved once this is cast.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If we are going to be rooted to our disadvantage, we should be rooted to our advantage, as well.    Root should be root, IMO.</DIV>

[Shizzirri]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Arielle Nightshade wrote:<BR> <DIV>Duststorm/Sandstorm.....</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Since this effect roots us such that we have to click it off to move - I'd like to see it root me to my ADVANTAGE as well.  If I can't move, I should not be able to BE moved either.  Any spell used against me that has a knock BACK component should not work.    Knock DOWN, interrupt, etc....are all different things, and are acceptable (well, sort of <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> ).   I should not be able to be moved once this is cast.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If we are going to be rooted to our disadvantage, we should be rooted to our advantage, as well.    Root should be root, IMO.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>I would agree with this except in the case of epics since the knockback part doesn't work on them.  But yeah its annoying when its up in a duel and you get knocked back out of the arena and have to cancel it

[Sylphier]

Hey OP add to this the bug about our spell graphics looking like templars. The DH and some buffs do not have druid spell graphics and this needs to be fixed. And for crying out loud, would a freakin dev please read this crap because it feels like our class has been shoved in the closet and neglected. <div></div>

[mikemcmodmi]

<P>I'm not sure the devs will be doing anything to help our class.  It's because of PvP.  If you look at all the strong pvp classes they're a bit weaker in PvE.  For example Wardens and Rangers.  If they gave us something to boost us up in PvE they'd further imbalance PvP.</P> <P>I think if they change anything it'll be with what they add to our class this coming expansion.  Maybe give us some abilities to rebalance things.  Otherwise I don't think they'll change a thing.</P> <P>On another note, it seems all the other classes are getting twinked here and there besides Wardens.  Besides the tranquility change nothing has been done to wardens.  Maybe the devs are happy with where wardens are and are changing all the other classes to put them in line with us.  Who knows. </P> <P>Personally I think we'll get something nifty in 3 months when the next expansion comes.  Until then there isn't much they'll change... unless they come to their senses and change tranquility.  I don't think they meant to give us a spell that's absolutely useless because it seems a bit silly.</P>

[Arielle Nightshade]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> mikemcmodmike wrote:<BR> <P>Personally I think we'll get something nifty in 3 months when the next expansion comes.  Until then there isn't much they'll change... unless they come to their senses and change tranquility.  I don't think they meant to give us a spell that's absolutely useless because it seems a bit silly.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Agreed.  I think the problem with Tranquility from a dev standpoint is:  it looks really good on paper.  As written, there doesn't seem to be a reason to change it - it 'sounds' pretty uber.   The reality of it in everyday useage, is where it goes wrong <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><BR>

[Dragonreal]

<DIV>so umm anyone notice if tranquillity will actually heal a target more than 3 times in one shot? cuz I could swear that I've seen it remove 4+ effects at once before yet only got 3 actual heals from it. can go check my logs after raids if I remember and don't pass out right away but thought I'd post it here and see if anyone noticed it.</DIV>

[quetzaqotl]

Out of curiousity how much does it heal for when you cure something i mean how much per cured effect?

[Shennr]

<P>One big thing to add to this thread is itemization specifically directed to Warden's.  </P> <P>The relic armor is a subclass specific armor that is geared and designed to be worn by 1 specific class. The Warden armor, however, is not really well thought through.  The stats could use a little reshuffling as any Warden "who tries" does not need such a huge wisdom boost from gear like other priests do.  </P> <P>Other priest only gear also follows the same effect with stats, but that is to be expected because all priests are different.</P> <P>Just my personal opinion here I rather now take items with Int and Sta over a wisdom piece anyday. Str is a good stat too for the Wardens who like to melee. Agi has little effect to how much avoidance it gives but can still be desired by some none the less.</P>

[Dragonreal]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> quetzaqotl wrote:<BR> Out of curiousity how much does it heal for when you cure something i mean how much per cured effect?<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>The heal depends on the lvl of the person you cure (it also getss attributed to that person ie: "<bigdumbogretank>'s Tranquil Blessing heals <bigdumbogretank> for xxx hit points" instead of "<fuzzypuppy>'s Tranquil Blessing heals <bigdumbogretank> for xxx hit points") At level 70, the heal from it is 352.<p>Message Edited by Dragonrealms on <span class=date_text>07-09-2006</span> <span class=time_text>12:35 PM</span>

[Touryn]

<div></div>I'm be updating the thread this evening.  I promise!  But first, I need to ask a question:Has anyone noticed changes to the tree?  It is looking like there is some AoE immunity going on.  Either that or I've had someone in my raid giving it some AoE immunity.EDIT:  My changes for today have been put through.  I would like to include the complaint about immunity timers, but I don't have numbers for stun and mez immunity.  Not being on a PvP server, I am not modivated to search for it myself.<div></div><p>Message Edited by Touryn on <span class=date_text>07-17-2006</span> <span class=time_text>10:13 PM</span>

[mikemcmodmi]

One thing I'd like to add.  Shamans provide group resists as well.  If they pick the int line they can provide just over 700 resists to group (more then us) with 8 points into the ability.  That being said most shamans don't bother since resists aren't that useful to buff and they have stronger AAs so choose other options.

[thedrow]

Nice list of tweaks needed for warden, but sorry to say it is useless.I've played a lot in some mmporg, DAoC, WoW, Planetside ... never see the devs take care on nice list as this one.So it i only a loss of time, the dev do what they want without care ...<div></div>

[Sylphier]

<div><blockquote><hr>thedrow wrote:Nice list of tweaks needed for warden, but sorry to say it is useless.I've played a lot in some mmporg, DAoC, WoW, Planetside ... never see the devs take care on nice list as this one.So it i only a loss of time, the dev do what they want without care ...<div></div><hr></blockquote>Quiter!</div>

[mikemcmodmi]

<P>I think devs do look at this stuff.  They have to look at the big picture though, plus they seem to rebalance by what they add every expansion.  Look at us.  In t6 I was topping the heal parser night after night pretty easily.  Heals were the latest thing to get updated in t6 (which we rely on the most for our healing) so we were pretty powerful.  Add one expansion and look at what happens.  We get a training spell that's useless and our AA abilities are pretty pathetic comparatively.  Maybe those 2 things are a sort of nurf..  No one wants to get nurfed and have abilities changed, so instead they add less to rebalance.</P> <P>I think it's pretty easy to say that we're one of the weakest healers atm so something should be coming that's pretty good down the pipeline.... or at least I hope so.</P> <P>On another note about tranquility.  I believe it works to dispell x lvls of effects of each type.  So it will usually dispell 2 trauma, 2 arcane, 2 nox and 2 elemental all at once.  So in theory it could dispell 8 effects.  There are no mobs i can think of that debuff for all 4 kinds so it'd be hard to test but that's my idea on how it works.  I don't have much experience using it though.... don't think I've used it for months.</P><p>Message Edited by mikemcmodmike on <span class=date_text>07-26-2006</span> <span class=time_text>08:04 PM</span>

[Dragonreal]

it won't always dispel 2 of the same effect, even at master lvl.. also I've yet to see it heal more than 3 times even with more than 3 effects dispelled.. but I use it so rarely (and even more rarely see it cure that many effects) it's hard to say for certain.

[Unmask]

The best time to test Tranquility is when your tank gets charmed by the eyeballs in deathtoll. By the time he becomes uncharmed he has accumulated a lot of effects. Casting tranquility on him then will often dispel 4+ effects and you get a heal for each one unless he doesn't need them all to get to full. My best (that I can remember) is 7 effects and 6 heals.Remember that just like any cure it cures X number of levels per effect and there are 10 total effects that can be cured.

[missconstrue]

i am wondering has anyone ever seen a good explantion for our hp buff being so low as compared to other healers. i am not sure i have seen a response anywhere on the forums about that. not sure how we are balanced with such a low hp buff. i am hopinng somewhere someone has seen a response to some of the concerns mentioned here. i know on a raid i get shuffled around a bit because with a warden in a group with a tank there is usually a comment bout their hps being so low. they ask what buffs are they missing <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> . at least they can't complain bout our heals. that we do well. i have read the thread and still agree that we need some buffs that are  more useful in a raid situation and some debuffs would be nice too!. i know this hs all been stated very well by all of you and i think all of the wardens for keeping all this updated. level 70 warden oasis server <div></div>

[Shennr]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> missconstrue wrote:<BR>i am wondering has anyone ever seen a good explantion for our hp buff being so low as compared to other healers. i am not sure i have seen a response anywhere on the forums about that. not sure how we are balanced with such a low hp buff. i am hopinng somewhere someone has seen a response to some of the concerns mentioned here. i know on a raid i get shuffled around a bit because with a warden in a group with a tank there is usually a comment bout their hps being so low. they ask what buffs are they missing <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> . at least they can't complain bout our heals. that we do well.<BR><BR><BR>i have read the thread and still agree that we need some buffs that are  more useful in a raid situation and some debuffs would be nice too!. i know this hs all been stated very well by all of you and i think all of the wardens for keeping all this updated.<BR><BR>level 70 warden oasis server<BR> <P><BR></P> <P></P> <HR> <P>Before the game had come out it was said that Clerics would receive a buff that would buff hp, Druids would receive a buff that would buff Power, and Shamans would receive a buff that would buff a mixture of hp and Power but not as much.  I think that is how the devs tried to balance out the classes but it always seems that hp is much more crucial then power in raids.</P></BLOCKQUOTE>

[Dragonreal]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Shennron wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> missconstrue wrote:<BR>i am wondering has anyone ever seen a good explantion for our hp buff being so low as compared to other healers. i am not sure i have seen a response anywhere on the forums about that. not sure how we are balanced with such a low hp buff. i am hopinng somewhere someone has seen a response to some of the concerns mentioned here. i know on a raid i get shuffled around a bit because with a warden in a group with a tank there is usually a comment bout their hps being so low. they ask what buffs are they missing <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> . at least they can't complain bout our heals. that we do well.<BR><BR><BR>i have read the thread and still agree that we need some buffs that are  more useful in a raid situation and some debuffs would be nice too!. i know this hs all been stated very well by all of you and i think all of the wardens for keeping all this updated.<BR><BR>level 70 warden oasis server<BR> <P><BR></P> <P></P> <HR> <P>Before the game had come out it was said that Clerics would receive a buff that would buff hp, Druids would receive a buff that would buff Power, and Shamans would receive a buff that would buff a mixture of hp and Power but not as much.  I think that is how the devs tried to balance out the classes but it always seems that hp is much more crucial then power in raids.</P></BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>it's no longer true... now the shammy buffs are just plain better than either of the drd buffs... mystic buffs 738 power at m1.. hmm same as ours... as for the  defiler's compared to the clerics.. hard to say cuz I just haven't checked out clerics in much detail yet (I will eventually!)</P> <P>edit: ok so remembered a thread I saw on tmep forums awhile back comparing all hlr's hp buffs to see who had the biggest [Removed for Content] =p anyway... temp m1 holy redoubt = 964 hp defiler m1 portent = 964 hp so pretty much the same case as with drd vs mystic.<BR></P><p>Message Edited by Dragonrealms on <span class=date_text>08-14-2006</span> <span class=time_text>05:52 PM</span>

[mikemcmodmi]

<P>Yup, shamans buff power as well as hps.  Templars buff a bit more hps then defilers but I'd still say templars have the best buffs in the game because of stoneskin.  Stoneskin rocks in raids and puts templars on top.  Inquisators buff dps mod as well as stamina plus have a short term haste/recast timer buff they put up so have strong buffs too.  It's just druids who have weak buffs, plus maybe mystics could use a boost since they buff str which is so easily capable.  </P> <P>If you count out the number of buffs we have we have the most too.  It's just they're all weak combined.  What we add is a bit of agility, resists and spores.  The number of buffs doesn't matter in the end and combined it's like 66 agi, 321 health, 700 resists and spores at the end of the day plus power which isn't defensive.</P>

[FuzzBall]

<div><blockquote><hr>Arielle Nightshade wrote:<div></div><blockquote>Agreed.  I think the problem with Tranquility from a dev standpoint is:  it looks really good on paper.  As written, there doesn't seem to be a reason to change it - it 'sounds' pretty uber.   The reality of it in everyday useage, is where it goes wrong <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></blockquote><hr></blockquote>Exactly, and its this very notion that makes me wonder if any dev <font color="#ff0000">*actually*</font> plays a warden.  It not, then were [Removed for Content]....</div>