Templar Class Issues - What do we need? (Now updated Post-GU51)

[Caethre]

<div><div>OOC.</div><div> </div><div><span style="color: #ff6600;"><strong>Here is a new List of Templar Class Issues (post-GU51)</strong></span></div><div> </div><div>The initial content of this thread is based heavily on one started by CuCullain, and then edited based on contributions/modifications from other templars.</div><div> </div><div>It is noted that this thread is not intended to be requesting:- strongly overpowered suggestions- "it would be nice" suggestions removed (leaving just the more important issues)- suggestions containing demands for specific hard numbers;</div><div>- suggestions that the devs have already specifically said are not going to happen.</div><div> </div><div>It is intended (as every incarnation of this thread has intended) to represent Templars of many playstyles, whether raiding or soloing or anything in between.</div><div> </div><div>The following are in no particular order, but they are as "current" as contributions to this and other threads allow.</div><div> </div><div> </div><div><strong><span style="color: #ff6600;">(1) TSO AP Ability "Focused Prayers"</span></strong></div><div> </div><div><strong><span style="color: #ff6600;">Issue</span></strong>:</div><div>This is arguably one of the worst problems. The stance is much too weak. As the final ability from the TSO tree, this should be an ability that has more effect that any other gained from AA. The extra healing boost from this ability is seen as very poor, whereas the drop in DPS we get to achieve that relatively large. Other priest classes seem to have an ability of greater performance here, with a third benefit to their healing stance. In addition the penalty to casting speed in this stance affects two of the templars debuffs which are used to generate healing.</div><div> </div><div><strong><span style="color: #ff6600;">Suggestion</span></strong>:</div><div>Add a third benefit to this stance on par with the other healing classes, +casting speed or an increase to the heal amount of the two heal procing debuffs are good examples. Remove casting speed penalty to the Mark and Involuntary gift spell lines.</div><div> </div><div><strong><span style="color: #ff6600;">(2) TSO AP Ability "Sacrifice"</span></strong></div><div> </div><div><strong><span style="color: #ff6600;">Issue</span></strong>:</div><div>No matter how much or how little the target of this spell is healed, the Cleric is reduced to around 5% of his total health. Even if the person is at 100% health you still loose all of yours except 5%.</div><div> </div><div><span style="color: #ff6600;"><strong>Suggestion</strong></span>:</div><div>Have the spell only reduce the Cleric's health the amount healed, up to 95% of the Clerics total health - his current missing health. (e.g. Cleric accidentally hits sacrifice while targeting Guardian at 100% health, no health removed form Cleric).</div><div> </div><div><strong><span style="color: #ff6600;">(3) Spell "Focused Intervention"</span></strong></div><div> </div><div><strong><span style="color: #ff6600;">Issue</span></strong>:</div><div>The amount the reactives heal for is to low to make this spell worth using. Most mobs hit for far more than this heals for and if you are using it the likely reason is you are out of mana and are desperate. In effect it simply becomes a slow down and watch the tank die a little later spell.</div><div> </div><div><strong><span style="color: #ff6600;">Suggestion</span></strong>:</div><div>Either increase the amount healed or add some additional benefit to using the spell such as a power boost to caster at expiration or an automatic death ward if target dies while the spell is on him.</div><div> </div><div><strong><span style="color: #ff6600;">(4) Spell "Forgiving Salvation"</span></strong></div><div> </div><div><strong><span style="color: #ff6600;">Issue</span></strong>: The amount of health restored is too low, especially in raid settings, 1700 health is less than 10% of a decently geared MT.</div><div> </div><div><strong><span style="color: #ff6600;">Suggestion</span></strong>: Increase the amount healed. Some would prefer a percentage, however a higher fixed amount would also be an improvement.</div><div> </div><div><strong><span style="color: #ff6600;">(5) Templar AP Ability "Mana Cure"</span></strong></div><div> </div><div><strong><span style="color: #ff6600;">Issue</span></strong>:</div><div>As it is now the spell is very unreliable. If that one person casts the right kind of spell after you get a debuff of the same type it might cure it. That is a lot of variables which in the end equals hardly ever.</div><div> </div><div><strong><span style="color: #ff6600;">Suggestion</span></strong>:</div><div>First idea would be to simply make it always cure IF the person happens to cast the right type of spell when you get a debuff. As it is even then the spell would likely have to not be resisted to even work then. A better idea would be to leave it as is but give it a chance to cure uncurable debuffs instead. The fact is this is an endline ability and should be better.</div><div> </div><div><strong><span style="color: #ff6600;">(6) Templar AP Ability "Cure X"</span></strong></div><div> </div><div><strong><span style="color: #ff6600;">Issue</span></strong>:</div><div>The amount the reactive actually triggers for is very low. The description states that the heal amount will come close to our current Bestowal of Vitae spell at max ranks.</div><div> </div><div><strong><span style="color: #ff6600;">Suggestion</span></strong>:</div><div>Increase the heal amount considerably.</div><div> </div><div><strong><span style="color: #ff6600;">(7) Spell "Divine Arbitration"</span></strong></div><div> </div><div><strong><span style="color: #ff6600;">Issue</span></strong>:</div><div>The amount of health lost when redivided is severe even at master level. With AoEs as common as they are it makes it more likely you will kill your whole group and not save one person by casting this. This dissuades some Templars from even having this spell on their hotbars.</div><div> </div><div><span style="color: #ff6600;"><strong>Suggestion</strong></span>:</div><div>One solution might be to decrease the number of hitpoints lost when this ability is used. Another is to actually heal the targeted group member (partially or fully) before redistributing the remaining health amongst other party members (making it viable but risky).</div><div> </div><div> </div><div><strong><span style="color: #ff6600;">(8 ) TSO AP Ability "Focused Prayers"</span></strong></div><div> </div><div><strong><span style="color: #ff6600;">Issue</span></strong>:</div><div>The numbers associated with this stance make healing overly difficult, the penalty given the boost is overly high.</div><div> </div><div><span style="color: #ff6600;"><strong>Suggestion</strong></span>:</div><div>Reduce the casting speed penalty to heal spells from 30% to a lower value.</div><div> </div><div><span style="color: #ff6600;"><strong>(9) Spell "Smite Corruption"</strong></span></div><div> </div><div><strong><span style="color: #ff6600;">Issue</span></strong>:</div><div>The wisdom reduction is to low to make much of a difference in any particular fight, especially raids. Though this was originally an adventure pack bonus spell, the fact that it was upgraded and made part of an AA line necessitates that it be kept relevant.</div><div> </div><div><span style="color: #ff6600;"><strong>Suggestion</strong></span>:</div><div>Increase the wisdom debuff, maybe even slightly increase the damage output from it.</div><div> </div><div><strong><span style="color: #ff6600;">(10) Templar AP Ability "Smite Wrath"</span></strong> <strong><span style="color: #ff6600;">Issue</span></strong>:</div><div>This is supposed to only be disabled when beneficial spells are cast. Once upon a time it was disabled by the HO starter, but SOE have fixed this now. However, it is still disabled by other actions that one would not normally expect to be considered "beneficial". Anything that is designed primarily to cause damage to an enemy, or directly supporting such, should more relevantly be classified as "hostile".</div><div> </div><div><strong><span style="color: #ff6600;">Suggestion</span></strong>:</div><div>Some or all of the following actions could be modifed so as not to cause 'Disable Smite Wrath" to proc:</div><div>Casting Unflinching HammerCasting YaulpCasting any of the Litany of combat spellsEnabling our "DPS" stanceSummoning an attack pet from an item such as "Fright and Dread" from "The Shard of Fear"Using the Earing of Void ChannelingUsing the "Fragment of the Eternal Prism" quest item</div><div> </div><div><strong><span style="color: #ff6600;">(11) General Class Issue: Use of INT by Priests as the Critical Mitigation Stat.</span></strong></div><div> </div><div><strong><span style="color: #ff6600;">Issue</span></strong>:</div><div>Intelligence is one of the lowest stats for Templars. The vast majority of our gear does not have INT bonuses, nor do we benefit much from having a high INT even if it was achieved (in traditional roles). Fighters and Rogues use AGI a stat that they have on a lot of their gear and a stat that they benefit greatly from beyond Critical mitigation. Casters and Healers use INT a stat that ALL casters have on lots of their gear and all benefit from in other ways also. So in the end Templars as well as all other healing classes, except maybe Fury, are the only classes to have their critical mitigation stat not found on most of their gear, nor a stat that is highly sought after for other uses by their class.</div><div> </div><div><strong><span style="color: #ff6600;">Suggestion</span></strong>:</div><div>Change healer Critical mitigation bonus to Wisdom.</div><div>.</div><div>.</div><div>.</div><div>.</div><div>.</div><div>.</div><div>.</div><div>.</div><div>.</div><div>.</div><div> </div><div><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">Earlier version of this post:-</span></p></div><p><span style="color: #ff6600;"><strong><span style="text-decoration: underline;">Class Balance issues for Templars, Post GU37</span></strong></span></p><p>Some of the issues raised in the early editions of this thread have been addressed over the months. However, at the very heart of things, the key essential class balance issues remain in some form. I will re-summarize here the key points, but leave the previous incarnation of this post in place below.</p><p>The main perceived problems remain as follows:</p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;"><span style="text-decoration: underline;"><strong>1. The DPS Issue</strong></span></span></p><p>Templars still have significantly less DPS than some other priest classes.</p><p>Templars can achieve quite large boosts in DPS by spec-ing their AP skills to maximize this, and equipping accordingly. One possible set of AP skills to maximize DPS ratings would be:</p><p>KoS:STA 448 (to get 100% Melee Criticals)AGI 448 (to get 32% Melee Double Attack)INT 4445 (to get as much casting haste as possible given the points remaining)</p><p>EOF:Smites: 21 points spent, including Smite Wrath.</p><p>Combining these with running Yaulp at all times, using heroic opportunities whenever possible, and acquiring a very high ratio melee weapon (1:5 at least), for example, the Blackscale Maul, can help raise Templar DPS hugely.</p><p>However, even after doing every single one of these, and even purchasing adornments to help DPS as well, the DPS-Spec'd Templar still cannot compete for DPS with an equivalently-geared DPS-spec'd Fury. Furthermore, by choosing the above AP Spec as a Templar, and playing with Yaulp up, leads to other issues (see below).</p><p>Overall: The DPS is still lacking (compared to some other priest classes). This may not matter at all in challenging group content (and in raids) where the Templar is largely healing and their DPS is not especially important, but in easier group content, and especially for small group players and solo players, this can be a significant defecit.</p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;"><strong><span style="text-decoration: underline;">2. The Healing Casting Times and Recast Times</span></strong></span></p><p>The Templar class suffers from having long casting times on its heals compared to some other priest classes. The group reactive is particularly an issue, with a casting time of 5.0 seconds.</p><p>Casting times can be reduced with APs and certain items, as they can for other classes, but it still leaves us on occasions struggling to get heals off in time in hostile environments, where another class in the same slot might not have that issue.</p><p>This means that under many circumstances, combined with the interrupts issue below, the Templar in a small group or group setting can sometimes struggle to get out enough healing quickly enough, compared to faster-casting healers.</p><p>The author certainly finds, that healing can be pumped out in an emergency somewhat faster on their other priest class character than it can on a Templar, helped also by the latter having numerically less actual independent healing lines to use.</p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;"><strong><span style="text-decoration: underline;">3. Interrupts</span></strong></span></p><p>These remain the absolute bugbear of our class, whenever our healing draws us the attention of a mob, or when we are tanking ourselves and trying to heal. Due to having mitigation-based armour, we have very low avoidance "built in". Using lower tier armour no longer helps with this, as the class is penalized for being plate-wearing by the assumption that it will wear plate, whether we do or not. This very low avoidance means we get hit more often (for less, but still hit, and interrupts are based off being hit).</p><p>This is made worse by our longer healing casting times (see above), making us easier to interrupt than those priests with shorter casting time heals. Even "unavoidable" interrupts (caused by mob combat arts) are more painful to a Templar because of the longer casting times on heals (see above).</p><p>Furthermore, we are penalized heavily for using our Yaulp AP skill, taking a large negative hit to our Focus skill if we have Yaulp running, making us even easier to be interrupted.</p><p>We can cancel Yaulp of course, but then our already small DPS (compared especially to the Fury class) is made considerably smaller still. And we even have the option to acquire AP skills that will reduce our problem with interrupts, but this will then prevent us purchasing most of the DPS-based APs noted above, which will reduce our DPS yet further.</p><p>So, it's a lose-lose situation here. As a first step, that negative hit on the Focus skill on our yaulp ability needs to be removed.</p><p><strong><span style="text-decoration: underline;"><span style="color: #ff6600;">4. Resists</span></span></strong></p><p>There appears to be an increasing issue with our debuffs being resisted. Even with all debuffs at Master I quality, debuffs are often found being resisted multiple times even against standard group content. For example, a Level 70 Templar in the Obelisk of Blight, an EOF instance for normal players, will typically see multiple debuff resists in many encounters in the zone.</p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;"><strong><span style="text-decoration: underline;">Summary</span></strong></span></p><p>Even today, another year on from the first incarnation of this post, the author (who plays two priest classes in solo and group settings at level 70) continues to find that in solo, small group and full group settings, the Templar class is still at a disadvantage in class balance terms, and requires some attention. There is a reason why there are "flavour of the month" priest classes (and why Templar is not one of them, and has not been one of them for the last two years).</p><p>Message Edited by Caethre on 09-27-2005 11:24 AM</p><p>Message Edited by Caethre on 07-09-2006 07:42 PM</p></div>

[Luey]

<DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00>(1) Interrupts</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00>If we are going to take the same penalty in the reduction of avoidance due to plate armor as a tank class does, then we should also recieve the same benefit.  It is my understanding that if a templar and a warrior (any class) have the same total mitigation value, the templar will not mitigate the damage as well.  Although really I'd just prefer if the capability of all mobs to interupt casting was reduced. </FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00>(4) Solo Capability</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>How about a self only damage shield?  It would increase our dps solo, but would not affect a group setting unless we were being hit.  It also would aleviate to a certain extent our dependancy on power to do damage, and I would argue that our ability to do damage should not be as dependant on our power as it is.  It would also allow us to continue to do damage while we were trying repeatedly to channel a heal through interupts and fizzles.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Note we should not have to attempt to recast this self ds during a fight, to further limit the possibility of it's use in a group environment possibly make it a concentration skill, or make it last long enough for a longer fight (because we don't really do short fights).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00>(5) Utility</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00>I think a significant improvment would be to change the recast or duration on the mez so that we could keep a mob locked down.  Keep in mind that because we are watching group health and casting spells when they are needed, not when we choose, that extending the duration is probably a better idea.  If the recast was simply adjusted to the duration, in many cases it wouldn't matter because we would have no choice but to ignore the fact that the mez expired and the mob was beating on us because we needed to heal someone instead.  If the duration were longer, and the recast time were shorter, balancing when you will need to dish out heals, and if you are better of remezing early (at the expense of efficiency) vs later (at the expense of saftey) would add an interesting dynamic to the class in general.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV></DIV> <P>Message Edited by Lueyen on <SPAN class=date_text>09-27-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>03:46 AM</SPAN></P><p>Message Edited by Lueyen on <span class=date_text>09-27-2005</span> <span class=time_text>03:54 AM</span>

[Antryg Mistrose]

We have 2 "utility" spells that are somewhat useful.  It would be nice to have them enough more so, so that Templars (now all healers are supposed to be equal), are welcome for their utility. <ul> <li>Odyssey - Given this is the only spell in the entire game that you have to pay to use (and at the level you get it, the cost is significant), it should be a VERY impressive spell - but it isn't.  How about it send a player to ANY zone they have access to, rather than just home?  Or allow the Templar to rebind it to their current location (anywhere in the game, not just home city as for CoQ/CoO)?</li> <li>Soothe -   Useful in harvesting somewhat - although the occasional "Resist and goes for your throat", makes the decision to use it challenging.  For adds though? The range between, close enough to cast, and "Oh dear, is evac up?" make it of somewhat limited use, seeing it has to be cast before the mob has noticed you, and one minute and one target?  Perhaps allow longer duration - with a concentration slot?  Although I'm not sure I want my templar to be a mezzer, it at least fits in with Templar roelplay -none of the invis/sneaking of non-armour wearing classes. </li> </ul> I'd agree about the timers - as has been stated elsewhere. - especially grouped with a power regen class, It's not a case of can't heal - just the "£$$%"£%$ timers won't let me!  Big, power inefficent direct heals should NOT have a long timer, their inefficiency is enough to limit their use.  Currently if I'm grouped, anyone but the MT getting beat on is on their own, if group heals aren't enough, because I do not have a heal spell free to use on them (bar Radiance). But then again, I'm not grouped a lot now, as I can do without the much increased pressure trying to keep a group alive.  Instead I'm endlessly harvesting, looking for adept 3 spell upgrades.  What fun <div></div>

[SenorPhrog]

<DIV>I'll toss my thoughts in again....</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>(1) Interrupts.   Yes extremely annoying especially in large groups.   Its not bad with one or two targets but three or heaven help you four I can get interrupted 5 or 6 times in a row easily.   Suggestion for solution?  Good question.   How would reducing interrupts for plate wearing characters effect other classes?  The real challenge in this is to come up with a solution that will only help us in those large groups and not give us too great of an advantage against single targets.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>(3) Healing Power.   From a solo capability I think we're doing fine.   I'm not 50+ in fabled gear and my reactives plus a very rare single point heal are doing just fine.   Now in a group depending on who is tanking it does become more apparent.    I'd maybe like to see a recast reduction on our heavy single target heals.   Being able to use the spell faster because of its enormous power cost isn't really going to make the encounter easier but I could be missing a side of that.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>(4) Solo Capability.   Templars have never killed fast....ever.  I don't find LU13 any harder just different.   Maybe increase the damage and power cost of our Strike and Smite lines.   Solo capability isn't something that really seems to be in the design of the Templar and from someone who solo's/duo's a ton I can tell you its painful.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>(5) Utility.    I kind of see this one as the gravy on the meal.   I mean they've actually made the Mark and Healer debuffs useful so I can't really immediately chide them.   I saw someone mention the Odyssey spell.  Honestly I haven't used that in 6 months except when I burned my Call spell.   My suggestion on this?   I'd like to see some upgrades to the summon food and water spell.   The stuff we get now is useless after a certain point.  </DIV>

[toxe14567]

<span>Very nice post </span>Felishanna! <span><blockquote><hr>Lueyen wrote:<div></div> <div></div> <div> <div><font color="#ffff00">(4) Solo Capability</font></div> <div> </div> <div>How about a self only damage shield?  It would increase our dps solo, but would not affect a group setting unless we were being hit.  It also would aleviate to a certain extent our dependancy on power to do damage, and I would argue that our ability to do damage should not be as dependant on our power as it is.  It would also allow us to continue to do damage while we were trying repeatedly to channel a heal through interupts and fizzles.  </div> <div> </div> <div>Note we should not have to attempt to recast this self ds during a fight, to further limit the possibility of it's use in a group environment possibly make it a concentration skill, or make it last long enough for a longer fight (because we don't really do short fights).</div></div> <hr></blockquote>I think a self only damage shield would be a very good idea! That could help alot while solo and would be pretty useless while in groups - the way it should be I'd say.</span><div></div>

[Luey]

<P><BR> </P> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Radar-X wrote:<BR> <DIV>   Solo capability isn't something that really seems to be in the design of the Templar and from someone who solo's/duo's a ton I can tell you its painful.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>From the in game help:</P> <P>Will there be a particular class designed specifically for players who want to solo?<BR><BR>We are not designing any specific classes to be more efficient at soloing than others.  We intend to provide lots of solo content for all classes in EverQuest II.<BR></P>

[Kendricke]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Lueyen wrote:<BR> <P><BR> </P> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Radar-X wrote:<BR> <DIV>   Solo capability isn't something that really seems to be in the design of the Templar and from someone who solo's/duo's a ton I can tell you its painful.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>From the in game help:</P> <P>Will there be a particular class designed specifically for players who want to solo?<BR><BR>We are not designing any specific classes to be more efficient at soloing than others.  We intend to provide lots of solo content for all classes in EverQuest II.<BR></P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Blackguard and other designers have already admitted that help files and class guides are outdated at this point based on the combat revamp.  Documentation and the knowledge base are being currently updated.  Trust me, the last time I checked, there was still a category for guild housing in the knowledge base...left over from early beta.</P> <P> </P>

[xyriel]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00>(1) Interrupts</FONT>.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Templars are reporting a considerable increase in the number interrupts since LU13. This is particularly noticeable when facing encounters with multiple creatures, with soloable groups or 3 or 4 creatures all with multiple down-arrows. This causing some Templars undue problems.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV><FONT color=#3399ff><STRONG>By learning to use the pacify spell, I can deal much more with these multiples. I don't really find it an issue anymore. Just took some getting used to.</STRONG></FONT></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00>(2) Linked timers for heals.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Some Templars are reporting severe problems keeping groups alive, especially in raiding situations, not due to a lack of power, but due to simply having to wait for timers whilst helplessly watching friends die.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV><FONT color=#3399ff><STRONG>Definitively a problem.  With a hard hitting mob (named level +6 or raid) I'm having problems keeping the tank alive. I have Greater Resto adept 3 (1k ish), Greater inter master 2 (400ish), Crucial inter adept 3 (300ish), Greater amer adept1(400 ish) and focused ben adept 3 (400 ish).  With a mob hitting 500 with abilities at 1k, the only effective spell I have is Greater resto.  All the other ones only "maintain" the tank at the same level of hp.  So, in a long combat (example named lvl 5<img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />, i loose the battle in keeping the tank alive.  Before LU 13, crutial healed for 490 9 times which was far better healing power. Then I could wait for the greater resto to recycle.  Now,  I often have all my healing spells in recycle.  </STRONG></FONT></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV><STRONG><FONT color=#3399ff></FONT></STRONG> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00>(3) Healing Power</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Many Templars have suggested on other threads, that post-LU13, their relative healing power leaves them feeling unhappy with their ability to bring enough to a group or raid to justify their position, compared to the other priest classes, given that those other priests bring more that is perceived of value to the table. Indeed, some Templars are already reporting being overlooked in favour of other healers in groups, and with a lower soloing capability, this is leaving them frustrated.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV><FONT color=#3399ff><STRONG>See above.  Making our heal better for exceptionnal cases where mobs are really above average will make the game too easy.  On ordinary mobs, our healing power would take out the challenge of the encounter.  We need a line a spell that really shines in tough combats.  The Mark line spell was like that before patch.  Maybe the procs of the spell could now "stack" having multiple "Mark" spells trigerring heals.  On short combats, it wouldn't make much of a difference since mob dies quickly.  On longer combats, having multiple ticks of heals of 50 or 75 (instead of 25) would really make a difference.  </STRONG></FONT></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00>(4) Solo Capability</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Some Templars have reported that soloing is now painfully slow, compared to other classes, and this is particularly poignant with comparison to the other priest classes. With this in mind, an increase in our capability to inflict damage in solo and small group settings might help.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV><FONT color=#3399ff><STRONG>Would really like to know what we expect to do in soloing.  I currently can solo any solo mob up to level +3 (53). No fabled armor, a few legendary and did invest in 5 adept 3s. The only ones that really strech my limits are the single 1up arrows even con or more.  </STRONG></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#3399ff><STRONG></STRONG></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#3399ff><STRONG>You need to play a lot with the pacify and stun lines added in lu13.  Search this board with various strategies on how to use these new spells. However, this is my view is from level 50.  Maybe at lower levels, soloability is lower, I wouldn't know.</STRONG></FONT></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00>(5) Utility</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>A number of Templars are unhappy that in the light of (3) above not being addressed, that Templars do not have utility spells of sufficient value and/or perceived value to small groups, full groups and raids, compared to other priest classes. Abilities such as SoW, Evac and Group Invisibility have proven considerably more appealing to groups than our relatively unexciting proc-heals and "mezzes".</DIV> <DIV> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV><STRONG><FONT color=#3399ff>Remebering the old EQ1, the cleric is pretty much what i looks like now: a lot of healing, some crowd control (sooth and root back then), average dd, stuns and what I feel is missing: great AC/HP buffs.  In terms of utility, I think the mitigation / hp buff should be spiked up a lot.  In EQ1, you could get up to 30% more AC / HP with a cleric. Now, I feel the impact is not as much.  Adding another line of stun would be also appreciated with maybe a different feel (stiffle?).</FONT></STRONG></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><BR> </DIV> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>

[Blast2hell]

<DIV>oops double post</DIV><p>Message Edited by Blast2hell on <span class=date_text>09-27-2005</span> <span class=time_text>01:49 PM</span>

[Blast2hell]

<FONT color=#ffff00></FONT><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Caethre wrote:<BR> <DIV>OOC.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This is a thread which will attempt to put in constructive terms what it is that templars feel is needed to make our class feel viable and fun once more, to the many of us who are unhappy after the rebalancing in LU13.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><EM>Unlike the other thread with a similar title, this thread will not begin from the assumption that the Templar class is essentially fine, and that anyone who disagrees is a 'whiner' who doesn't know how to play their class, but rather, that we Templars have a set of valid concerns, and we do not want to see our community split apart and many leave the game. This thread is not going to play the fanboy tune, but it is not going to assume the sky has fallen either, it will just list suggestions for making us feel we have a role to fulfil</EM>. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#33ccff>Hehe, no comment.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I will start the ball rolling with some initial ideas, in no particular order, put together by re-reading the other long thread and taking peoples' thoughts. I will update this post as regularly as my busy real-life work schedule will allow from any replies to it. Please feel free to post with any points you agree or disagree with, and any extra points you wish to make.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00>(1) Interrupts</FONT>.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Templars are reporting a considerable increase in the number interrupts since LU13. This is particularly noticeable when facing encounters with multiple creatures, with soloable groups or 3 or 4 creatures all with multiple down-arrows. This causing some Templars undue problems.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Suggestion: reduce the capability of down-arrow mobs to cause interrupts to plate-armoured characters, and/or give templars some facility by which they can improve their resistence to interruption.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#66ccff>I don't think one priest should have a better chance to not be interrupted then some other priest.   The avoidance/mitigation debate shouldn't apply to healing.  So I think clerics (not just templars)  should get less chance of being interrupted due to our Armor protecting us from such hard hits.  I haven't checked to see if other priest classes are complaining about interrupts, and if so, maybe too many creatures are using abilities that interrupt too often.   </FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00>(2) Linked timers for heals.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Some Templars are reporting severe problems keeping groups alive, especially in raiding situations, not due to a lack of power, but due to simply having to wait for timers whilst helplessly watching friends die.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Suggestion: remove the link between the timers on some of the healing spells. (suggestions of which links need to be removed please).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#33ccff>Give priest back the splitpaw heal at least, that spell was made completely redundant when it was timer linked.   If you want all our spells on same timer, at least let us stack the older versions, let me put GI and SP on at the same time.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00>(3) Healing Power</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Many Templars have suggested on other threads, that post-LU13, their relative healing power leaves them feeling unhappy with their ability to bring enough to a group or raid to justify their position, compared to the other priest classes, given that those other priests bring more that is perceived of value to the table. Indeed, some Templars are already reporting being overlooked in favour of other healers in groups, and with a lower soloing capability, this is leaving them frustrated.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Suggestion: Improve the healing power of some of our basic heals. (suggestions of which spells need to be tweaked and by how much, needed please).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#33ccff>In raiding, the priest ability to heal on a whole has been greatly diminished, due to priest not stacking with each other, and spells not checking quality before overwriting.  In raids, most of your priest can only cast there two direct heals, for us it's Greater Amelioration, and Greater Restoration, so unless your in MT group, or one of the two clerics assisgned to put Single Target reactives, these two spells are all you got, and by far the least power efficent.  Major changes in Healing power needs to be done to raiding.   They need to make it so priest stack better together, if we have 8 priest, they should be able to heal full out, not reduced to barely using half there healing power.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00>(4) Solo Capability</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Some Templars have reported that soloing is now painfully slow, compared to other classes, and this is particularly poignant with comparison to the other priest classes. With this in mind, an increase in our capability to inflict damage in solo and small group settings might help.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#33ccff>Soloing we can keep ourselves alive, but it does take forever to kill stuff.   An increase in DPS, is only fair.   A templar should be able to easily break 100 DPS if there casting mainly Damage spells, and currently that's not the case.  Even in the low 100 dps range, we by far wouldn't be the best Priest DPS.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00>(5) Utility</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>A number of Templars are unhappy that in the light of (3) above not being addressed, that Templars do not have utility spells of sufficient value and/or perceived value to small groups, full groups and raids, compared to other priest classes. Abilities such as SoW, Evac and Group Invisibility have proven considerably more appealing to groups than our relatively unexciting proc-heals and "mezzes".</DIV> <DIV> </DIV><FONT color=#66ffff>I would really like to do a level by level comparison, to figure out who's getting what and when.  Because were all gettings spells every level, so when the fury or whoever gets that invis spell, what did we get?   We had to get something...but what.   They don't have more spells then us do they?   Being there utility is the "more spells".   I guess the best way would be to categorize spells as  Heal/debuff/utility/buff.   Because, if templars get more utility, would they have to take away spells to keep the balance?  These things I don't know and want to look into more.</FONT> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00>(6)  Stacking</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00>     </FONT>When grouping more then one priest or raiding, priest are noticing spells are being overwritten regardless of quality of spell(be it adept 1 or master2).   The revamp proclaimed classes would stack better together, but it appears it's gotten worse for priest, and thereby limiting priest healing ability on raids and in two priest groups.   Bring us the truth in stacking better together, because right now healing on raids has been drastically reduced due to the limitations.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00>(7)  Timers</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>   A lot of templars feel they could heal better if the timers weren't so long on some of our spells, or if the durations were longer.  For example, our level 52 spell Reverance is a great spell, but a 15 second duration is silly, and should be changed to at least 45 seconds to 1 minute. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>(EDIT:  all references to  "you" or anything like that refers to SOE not the original poster)</DIV><p>Message Edited by Blast2hell on <span class=date_text>09-27-2005</span> <span class=time_text>01:51 PM</span>

[Ghedrain]

I want invis vs. undead.  Actually I think the whole cleric subclass should have this spell and be able to cast it on group members. <div></div>

[Caethre]

<P>OOC.</P> <P>Finally found some time (been a very busy week) to come back here and read/update this.</P>

[AzraelAzgard]

<P>Unlink Fast heal line Amelioration and Bounty of the Virtuous (Splitpaw heal)</P> <P> </P> <P>Before seperate timers made it possible to save casters while the large heal was on a recast timer, but now after 1 fast heal the caster usually dies soon after while you wait on recast.</P>

[Hakthaf]

<DIV>A thing that would help us in the ability to solo would be Kite Shields. We are already a heavy armor class so why not let us wear them? A lot of the kiteshields would be perfect for us since a lot of them give a good amount of wisdom and power. the block bonus would help us a lot as well as the extra mitigation.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As far as interupts go there is a good reason for it. Since we not longer have avoidance we get hit more, and getting hit more means more chance for interupts. I agree it is stupid the amount of times i have to recast a spell to get it to cast between the fizzles and interupts. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I think if they removed the linked timer on the heal we get from Splitpaw and took it off the smaller heal timer and put it on its own that would help us a lot. I personally dont see why it is on a linked timer, its not even the same heal line. Shouldnt these bonus spells be worth getting for the reason that they are their own timer?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I think our utility needs a little work, our pacify is worthless in groups cause most groups have someone needing to cast AoE's so its gonna keep unlocking. Soothe just needs to be changed to work on entire encounters not just one mob.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Possibly increasing the amount healed in our mark line by like 10-20hp per tick, not much but enough to make it better than 17 at level 38.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Our reactives need their intial and final heal brought back, before as soon as you casted it on the target it would heal right then, and then when it ended it healed again. This would significantly increase our heals. This is what made reactives good, even if all the heals didnt go off you still were guaranteed at least 2 heals. There was no good reason why they removed this before, other than when reactives stacked that made it overpowered, but since reactives no longer stack this would no longer overheal for us. So bring back intial and cancel heals on our reactives.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>These are just a few thoughts on what i wouldn't mind seeing changed.</DIV>

[Dekedar]

<P>just a few of my thoughts</P> <P> </P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>(1) Interrupts</FONT>.</P> <P>Just make plate armor more effective in general.</P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>(2) Linked timers for heals.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffffff>Everyone has this problem, and I know that is a respone to the majority of what we call problems. I disagree with ppl that try and shrug off our problems by saying this, but in this situation I see that everyone equally has this problem. Almost 100% equally, its a good equalizer and I'm fine with timers as is. If they change ours, others will be changed also, and healing will become easier. Not a problem by me, but I don't think they were trying to make healing easier, though a little easier would be really nice, just a little. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>(3) Healing Power</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffffcc>My opinion on this ties into my opinoon on number 4. I think we should have the greatest healing power and strongest direct heals, maybe I'm just a greedy arrogant full of myself/templars [Removed for Content]. All opinion I guess, everything opinion. But IMO a templar by everquest definition is the purest form of a healer. I'm not asking to be twice as good as every other healer, just slightly stronger heals and healing capabilites.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>(4) Solo Capability</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffffcc>I</FONT><FONT color=#ffffcc> personally don't care for soloing, actully I find it the 2nd most unenjoyable thing in game, following crafting. just my opinion. But, like I said in number 3, I think we are the purest form of healer, and I think we should be group based strong healers, weak in solo strong in group. You have to take the good with the bad. You want to be the best healer around? Fine, its going to take you 3 minutes to kill a white solo encounter.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>(5) Utility</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffffff>Some ppl mentioned buffs/debuffs, I don't consider those utility, I consider utility spells sow, evac, our "mez", soothe, some others. Though I guess you could call soothe and mez debuffs and sow a buff... more opinion I guess. Soothe is not a bad spell, but I only use it during harvesting and going after ?'s. I've noticed I still get aggro if the mob gets close enough so it must not completely make it a non aggro mob but just make it have a very low aggro range. I think it hsould make it non aggro, completley. the mez line, make it longer duration, or preferably just get rid of it, give us something else, anything else. That spell does not fit our role IMO. Summon food, well, the numbers are incredibly weak, but it does stack with with homeade food and drink, I think it should grow with you as you lvl, but SoE said they were getting rid of that sort of thing, but they alrdy broke their word on that because look at invis, grows with you as you lvl, items, totem of chameleon. Our debuffs, mark and curate, someone said more effective, not too much. They proc more often, but I have adept 1 of them and the numbers are very weak. I wouldn't mind seeing the numbers increased a tad, even at the cost of more power. I more often that not do not cast these spells. Not saying I dont use them, but about 75% of the time I don' tbecause the benefit is not that much. The biggest thing I have is, why doesn't our stun effect epic targets, it makes no sense. enchanters can chain stun epic mobs, today meathooks stopped doing damage to our tank 1/4 through the fihgt/ We started, teh chanter did his thing then started chain stunning and meathooks did 0 damage to our tank for literally 3/4 the fight. Only the beggining he hit him, after that nothing at all. Other classes stuns effect epic mobs, I know, not all of their stuns, but quite a few, we only have 1 stun, pls give us 1 more useful thing to do on raids. </FONT></P> <P>Though I'd take increased healing ability over any type of utility anyday.</P> <P> </P> <P>Thanks for listening, just some of my, maybe biased, veiws.</P>

[Eepop]

<div></div>I've always thought Templars should get some kind of angel shapechange buff for soloing, similar to the animal forms the other  priest classes get.  Given, right now those shapechange buffs arent helping much...but it would be alot easier making them fair if clerics got versions too.  Then whenever one of the priests has problems soloing they would know right where to look to fix it. Best of luck getting this stuff addressed. EDIT <span> If priestly DPS fixes are important to you, see <a href="message?board.id=11&message.id=4506" target="_blank">this post</a> on the priest forums, for a consolodated approach to getting priests more solo DPS.</span> <div></div><p>Message Edited by Eepop on <span class=date_text>10-13-2005</span> <span class=time_text>03:24 PM</span>

[bobdbutcherer]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Lueyen wrote:<BR> <DIV> <DIV>Note we should not have to attempt to recast this self ds during a fight, to further limit the possibility of it's use in a group environment possibly make it a concentration skill, or make it last long enough for a longer fight (because we don't really do short fights).</DIV></DIV> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>I do like the self-DS idea.  Make it Holy Aura, or something to that effect.  Make it return Divine damage. And YES, make it require one concentration.  By doing all these things you:</DIV> <OL> <LI>Fall within Templar flavor lines</LI> <LI>Increase the DPS a templar can dish out while soloing</LI> <LI>Being a self only buff the Templar won't be using it in a group situation, as they won't be taking damage (in theory).</LI> <LI>And most importantly, you fill up that 5th concentration slot while soloing.  At least I always have one slot open while soloing.</LI></OL> <P>One other idea I had to give us slightly more utility is as follows, bare with me here.</P> <P>We (clerics) are able to wear plate armor.  Therefore we can mitigate damage better than 75% of the other classes out there.  With the recent updates I've noticed two things that make life as a templar psuedo-hell.  Tanks have alot harder time keeping aggro and mobs break off to bash on the paper dolls known as mages, especially wizards and warlocks.  The other is, with how slow all our heals are you have to be right on the ball or your tank has to be even more on the ball to save that caster.  Too many times now I have thought man if there was just some way I could get in the way.  I mean what good is this [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] heavy armor if I'm not being pummeled.  Meanwhile the over zealous warlock dies and you have to hustle over rez and then back to healing the tank.</P> <P>My suggestion...an emergency Taunt.  I'm not asking for an entire taunt line like the tanks have.  I'm looking for something similar to Rescue.  A high hate generating taunt that you can only use every 20-30 minutes.  Lets face it, who is gonna last longer with a mob whacking away on them, the mage? or the plate wearing cleric.  While it takes its swipes at you, you can go back to healing the tank and he can focus on taunting the mob off of you instead.  Now granted the problem this could present is that your heals are getting interrupted a little more frequently, but there have been few times that my MT died because of interruptions on my part.</P> <P>Would like to see other's ideas regarding the Cleric taunt <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P>

[Aaf]

Not sure about the DS idea, I think a return of our Hammer Pet from eq1 may solve the issue, about soloablity and dps that was raised in another thread quite a bit ago.  If they're trying to make the game more eq1-ish instead of WoW-ish, I would like to see the return of some of our ablity's from eq1, hammer pet, stuns, bigger sheilds *kite or somthing instead of bucklers*

[Brallin]

The only thing that I could hope for changing is the linked recast timers of Bounty of the Virtuous and the Amelioration line, but even if that never happens Im still having fun with my Templar.:smileyvery-happy:

[Urth]

<P>Delete the link between Bounty of Virtuous & Amelioration spells recast timers. It was very usefull because of a short cast time and an regen mana possible ...</P> <P>But I'm still enjoy playing my templar <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P>

[Jida]

<span><blockquote><hr>Aafek wrote:Not sure about the DS idea, I think a return of our Hammer Pet from eq1 may solve the issue, about soloablity and dps that was raised in another thread quite a bit ago.  If they're trying to make the game more eq1-ish instead of WoW-ish, I would like to see the return of some of our ablity's from eq1, hammer pet, stuns, bigger sheilds *kite or somthing instead of bucklers* <hr></blockquote>/agree The hammer pet should be up there in the main post. Please update the main post as this being a suggestion Thanks.</span><div></div>

[Wildi]

<P>**PLEASE BE AWARE OF YOUR LANGUAGE WHEN POSTING**</FONT></P><p>Message Edited by Raijinn Thunderguard on <span class=date_text>10-13-2005</span> <span class=time_text>01:05 PM</span>

[javis]

I wouldn't mind seeing Odyssey giving choices: TS Nek Your bind points (Q, FP, RO, etc.) But hey it is a utility, just a thought. -Iz <div></div>

[Blast2hell]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> javis wrote:<BR>I wouldn't mind seeing Odyssey giving choices:<BR>TS<BR>Nek<BR>Your bind points (Q, FP, RO, etc.)<BR><BR>But hey it is a utility, just a thought.<BR><BR>-Iz<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Add a Group Odyssey spell  that's  called   Greater Odyssey which ports the whole group.</DIV>

[Aaf]

Bump for Hammer pet, hehe.  Personally, I could care less if it was a 3 concentration buff, long term pet, or like, a no-con short term, like the SK pet...maybe give us a summoned item after a spell line, like whenever a reactive heal ends we get a "Peridot" and use that too summon our pet...  or w/e.

[Supernova17]

<P>**REMOVED FLAME BAIT**</FONT></P><p>Message Edited by Raijinn Thunderguard on <span class=date_text>10-14-2005</span> <span class=time_text>10:02 AM</span>

[gtasmil]

<font size="3"><font face="Arial">    As a 48 templar the only suggestion I would make is for the parry ability back.  This would solve the whole interrupt problem.  I can deal with debuffs only working on a single target and the long recast timers (which in most cases seem to have been reduced).  Due to the fact that spells do not cost as much power to cast, I just cast reactive heals and throw all minor and major heals until reactive recharges. </font></font><div></div>

[Kiara-]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> gtasmiley wrote:<BR><FONT size=3><FONT face=Arial>    As a 48 templar the only suggestion I would make is for the parry ability back.  This would solve the whole interrupt problem.  I can deal with debuffs only working on a single target and the long recast timers (which in most cases seem to have been reduced).  Due to the fact that spells do not cost as much power to cast, I just cast reactive heals and throw all minor and major heals until reactive recharges.<BR></FONT></FONT> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#cc99ff>They took the parry ability away for a reason.  And with templars in heavy armour it makes sense.  We're wearing plate for goodness' sake.  We're not going to be agile little monkies dodging every blow.  Or deflecting every blow.  We're supposed to get interrupted.  Now, granted, it might be a little too much interruption, but a bit of tweaking there could fix it nicely.</FONT></P> <P> </P>

[Jida]

Wow, this is a great post. Does anyone else have any other constructive suggestions that would make the class more fun to play?

[Curati]

<P>what do we need:</P> <P> </P> <P>unlink the timers on all heals (do for all priests)</P> <P>shorten the recast timers to at least 3/4 of what they are now (do for all priests)</P> <P>Increase our defensive abilities with added spells or avoidance...i would even sacrafice dps  to be able to last longer if I happen to get agro</P> <P> </P> <P>we need our plate to mitagate like a guardian i picked a templar for the reason that I could wear plate</P>

[Jida]

<DIV>Curative,</DIV> <DIV>Unlinking heals would make all healers way overpowered. They are linked to have some type of control (i may be wrong here) and so the mob's are still doable by all classes. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Plate mitigation is another story, yes i would like to see it higher, but as in any caster we were not meant to tank, in ANY regard. we were meant to take a few hits here and there, but not tank.. Dont get me wrong, i do believe that plate armor should have more value to a templar due to the sacrafice in avoidance, but no where near a guardian. IMO our job in groups is to heal, not tank.<BR></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Curative wrote:<BR> <P>what do we need:</P> <P> </P> <P>unlink the timers on all heals (do for all priests)</P> <P>shorten the recast timers to at least 3/4 of what they are now (do for all priests)</P> <P>Increase our defensive abilities with added spells or avoidance...i would even sacrafice dps  to be able to last longer if I happen to get agro</P> <P> </P> <P>we need our plate to mitagate like a guardian i picked a templar for the reason that I could wear plate</P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV><BR></DIV>

[bobdbutcherer]

<P>As far as I know, mitigation is mitigation is mitigation.  2000 mitigation on a templar is (should be) = 2000 mitigation on a Guardian.  It may just seem like they are damaging us for more because of our avoidance.  I know that my templar has roughly 15% avoidance whereas my Pali friend using a kite shield has about 30% or so (rough estimate, haven't inspected him in awhile <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />).  Therefor he has a better chance of avoiding that shot the mob is trying to land, but if we both have 2000 mitigation and the mob manages to land the exact same blow on us, it SHOULD be mitigated the same.</P> <P>Of course this is all in theory.</P> <P>Now as far as do we need a boost in mitigation?... I don't think we do.  Currently fully buffed at lvl 53 I have just over 2600 mitigation.  That's with cobalt head, chest, boots, ice glacier gauntlets, ebon pants, rubicite (not forged rubicite) gussets, and murkwater spaulders (i think, plate spaulders that drop in Hidden Cache).  Now yes, I have above par gear, but it isn't full on raiding gear either and it has been awhile since I grouped with a tank with superior mitigation.  I'll have to get back in touch with my old guardian friend and compare stats.</P> <P>Now back to on topic <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P>I'd say there is no end all, be all tweak that we need.  No one change that would make everyone happy.  I do think however, especially with the beef up that the druids are getting to their heal lines (no druid flames please), that we could use a skooch more DPS (1conc pet, or 1conc DS sounds good, although it starts to take away from the uniqueness of summoners and druids) and/or a little more on the utility lines to bring us in line with them in other areas.</P>

[SnowKnight]

<P>More dps and one good group utility along the lines of other healers. Perhaps a small haste buff of some sort seing as we seem to be melee inclined healers (ie GOC, Fate line, would make them proc more too). This could also help ease some of the dps problems, power our nukes up in both mana cost and damage, so that we have dps in line with other preist classes at least.</P> <P>Healing is fine, at least in my opinion.</P> <p>Message Edited by SnowKnight on <span class=date_text>10-20-2005</span> <span class=time_text>03:07 AM</span>

[Jida]

I believe the self only DS is the way to go. It will make most soloing templars stop complaining as long as it put our solo dps in line with other healers. <div></div>

[Shackler]

<DIV><FONT color=#ffff00>4) Solo Capability</FONT> <P><FONT color=#ffffcc>I</FONT><FONT color=#ffffcc> personally don't care for soloing, actully I find it the 2nd most unenjoyable thing in game, following crafting. just my opinion. But, like I said in number 3, I think we are the purest form of healer, and I think we should be group based strong healers, weak in solo strong in group. You have to take the good with the bad. You want to be the best healer around? Fine, its going to take you 3 minutes to kill a white solo encounter.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffffcc></FONT> </P> <P><FONT color=#ffffcc>Yes if i were the best healer around, i would gladly take the diminished solo capabilties but we arent. Wardens are by far the best healers regarding power/heal ratio.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffffcc>Wardens buffs make templar buffs look silly.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffffcc>If you want to be the best healer and have more solo power, go for warden.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffffcc>SOE clearly have no clue how to balance priest classes</FONT></P></DIV>

[Laralma]

<DIV>I don't think a damage shield is good enough for raising DPS.  The real issue is, what do I do when in a group where there just isn't enough healing to do to keep me busy?  I am really thinking of small groups, like duoing with a warrior or scout, or even with a mage who knows how to avoid being hit.  Other people are going to have the agro because they do far more damage, so a damage shield is not going to help.  I suggest a spell which increases your strength enough that you can do decent direct melee damage (comparable to the damage a druid or shaman would do, I suppose).  This would fit conceptually with our plate armor.</DIV><p>Message Edited by Laralma on <span class=date_text>10-20-2005</span> <span class=time_text>06:31 AM</span>

[Sinnester]

<P><FONT color=#66ffff>Laralma stated:</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#66ffff>I suggest a spell which increases your strength enough that you can do decent direct melee damage (comparable to the damage a druid or shaman would do, I suppose). </FONT></P> <P>We already get a strength buff, one of the best in the game.</P> <P>What do we really need:</P> <P>1.  Lets begin with fixing the fizzle rate!  </P> <P>2.  Yes, a self buff damage shield.  We could be given this DS around lvl 20 and let it scale up.  The DS should be comparable to the scale up of a damage potion.  I believe at lvl 40 the potion hits for 30hp's but it only lasts for 15 seconds (not sure on that).  Can you imagine having a self buff damage shield that hits for 15hp a tick and lasts for 30 seconds and you could recast every two minutes (ok, that example is probably overpowered).</P> <P>3.  Lessen the interrupt amounts on heavy armor users.  If I am not mistaken this is a problem with all plate armor classes, not just Templars.</P> <P>4.  It would be my dream to have a small 3rd independant direct heal.   I don't like the feeling I get when I am raiding and I have both reactives on, both direct heals are down and I still need to cast a heal.  Perhaps improving the Mark line a small fraction would help on this also.</P> <P>5.  Improve the resist rate on our Sooth/Mez line or get rid of it entirely (get rid of one of the mez's and you have a place for the self only DS spell).</P> <P>6.  Less cast time on our one group cure for ALL healing classes is needed.  When a epic mob casts a poision AE every 10 seconds and your group AE has a 30 sec recast no one will live.</P> <P>6.  Please do not nerf our Sanctuary spell.</P> <P>Sinnester - <FONT color=#00cc33 size=1>who once got booted from a EQ1 guild because she was "too hardcore".</FONT></P>

[Andalla]

<span><blockquote><hr>Sinnester wrote- <p>What do we really need:</p> <p>2.  Yes, a self buff damage shield.  We could be given this DS around lvl 20 and let it scale up.  The DS should be comparable to the scale up of a damage potion.  I believe at lvl 40 the potion hits for 30hp's but it only lasts for 15 seconds (not sure on that).  Can you imagine having a self buff damage shield that hits for 15hp a tick and lasts for 30 seconds and you could recast every two minutes (ok, that example is probably overpowered).</p><p>Sinnester - <font color="#00cc33" size="1">who once got booted from a EQ1 guild because she was "too hardcore".</font></p><hr></blockquote>Hey, this is a good idea. Oh wait, it sounds startlingly like the damage shields that Inquistors are reliant upon for their DPS, since they don't get templar increased smite/nuke lines. Yeah, yours uses concentration, and/or is self only. People need to understand that Sony is intent on not mixing the roles of classes. Inquisitors get the damage shields to compensate for their lack of nukes. You get nukes to compensate for your lack of damage shields. </span><b>"Perhaps a small haste buff of some sort seing as we seem to be melee inclined healer" </b>Hey, another good idea. Oh wait, that sounds kind of like the haste buff that Inquisitors get at lvl 50 that stuns them, while templars get a (still) solid, though nerfed from broken disgustingness, reactive heal. But wait, templars don't even want theirs to stun them. That sounds like a great idea, I agree. In all: You guys cannot make your bed and lay in it at the same time. I think templars were used to being the "badass" healer, and now that they are no longer brokenly powerful, and are more in line with inquisitors in healing power, templars are now feeling what some other classes have been dealing with all along. Comparatively, you guys got wrecked, and I'm sorry for that. But you're not broken, you're just back at the level with the rest of us mortals. On a side note- I do think reinstituting the cleric hammers is a great idea. And that priest plate mitigation is borked, and needs to get fixed. But that's more of a universal issue, as is the rediculous lack of avoidance. <div></div>

[zorbdan]

<P>All of the above ^^^ </P> <P> </P> <P>I would like to point out some spells in my book that currently do basically nothing, replace them with some of these suggestions above.</P> <P>holy acolyte</P> <P>detect evil </P> <P>summon holy symbol</P>

[Jida]

<span>Those spells are meant to have no impact on play style. Hence them being "fun spells". Each class gets some subset of meaningless playthings, they all do basicly nothing.<blockquote><hr>zorbdan wrote:<p>All of the above ^^^ </p> <p>I would like to point out some spells in my book that currently do basically nothing, replace them with some of these suggestions above.</p> <p>holy acolyte</p> <p>detect evil </p> <p>summon holy symbol</p> <div></div><hr></blockquote></span><div></div>

[dwor]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <BLOCKQUOTE> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#cc99ff>They took the parry ability away for a reason.  And with templars in heavy armour it makes sense.  We're wearing plate for goodness' sake.  We're not going to be agile little monkies dodging every blow.  Or deflecting every blow.  We're supposed to get interrupted.  Now, granted, it might be a little too much interruption, but a bit of tweaking there could fix it nicely.</FONT></P> <P> </P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>It is fatiguing to fight in heavy armor, but fighters wearing this protective gear are far from the clumsy behemoths often portrayed in film. If armor were that encumbring, no fighter in his right mind would have bothered with it, because being slowed that much would be tantamount to suicide. Modern reconstructions have shown that fighters in full suits of mail or plate can perform cartwheels, leap up directly from the ground, and even sprint for short distances. Great endurance is obviously required to fight for long periods in armor, and men-at-arms trained in armor from childhood to be able to do so. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I dont think that parry is unreasonble. You might want to do some research into medevil armor before making uninformed statements</DIV>

[Xerxess]

<DIV>1. I agree with the fizzle rate...I seem to fizzle way to much now and I have maxed out some of the skills to cast these spells</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>2. Lessen the interrupts</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>3. Better Buffs or atleast a slight increase to the ones we have.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>4. Maybe another utility spell?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>5. Another debuff ooo say our Str debuff line back??</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>6. A Complete Heal spell *snickers*</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I dunno...I don't want higher DPS nor do I want a DS...its just not templar enough...we are suppose to be good healers not nukers or tankers. If anything I just want to be able to heal a group then solo or join a group and become a battle cleric. Just me though</DIV>

[Sinnester]

<P> </P> <P></P> <HR> <FONT color=#66ffcc size=2>Andalla stated:</FONT> <P><FONT color=#66ffcc size=2>Hey, this is a good idea. Oh wait, it sounds startlingly like the damage shields that Inquistors are reliant upon for their DPS, since they don't get templar increased smite/nuke lines. </FONT></P> <P></P> <HR> <DIV>You have got to be kidding me! Lets go over a few of the spells Inquisitors receive for damage.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Purifying Flames - inflicts 138-168 damage every 4 seconds and decreases mitigatiion.</DIV> <DIV>Heresy - inficts divine damage whenever a beneficial spell is cast.  up to 5 triggers for 346-577 damage each.</DIV> <DIV>Scourge - deals mental damage over time 73-89 every 4 seconds</DIV> <DIV>Fanatical Vengence - inflicts 236 damage on target for 5 attacks!</DIV> <DIV>Consecrated Aura - increases dps by 28%</DIV> <DIV>Ruthless Invocation - 291-356 Divine dmg and stifles target!</DIV> <DIV>Litancy of Anguish -  Interrupts and inflicts 347-424 damage on target.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Enough said!!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Andalla]

<span><blockquote><hr>Sinnester wrote:<div></div> <p></p> <hr> <font color="#66ffcc" size="2">Andalla stated:</font> <p><font color="#66ffcc" size="2">Hey, this is a good idea. Oh wait, it sounds startlingly like the damage shields that Inquistors are reliant upon for their DPS, since they don't get templar increased smite/nuke lines. </font></p> <p></p> <hr> <div>You have got to be kidding me! Lets go over a few of the spells Inquisitors receive for damage.</div> <div> </div> <div>Purifying Flames - inflicts 138-168 damage every 4 seconds and decreases mitigatiion.</div> <div>Heresy - inficts divine damage whenever a beneficial spell is cast.  up to 5 triggers for 346-577 damage each.</div> <div>Scourge - deals mental damage over time 73-89 every 4 seconds</div> <div>Fanatical Vengence - inflicts 236 damage on target for 5 attacks!</div> <div>Consecrated Aura - increases dps by 28%</div> <div>Ruthless Invocation - 291-356 Divine dmg and stifles target!</div> <div>Litancy of Anguish -  Interrupts and inflicts 347-424 damage on target.</div> <div> </div> <div>Enough said!!</div> <div> </div> <div> </div><hr></blockquote>Purifying Flames: 24 second duration, relatively high power cost, and only decreased mitigation vs one save type (mental i believe). It's fine, but it's not an incredible nuke. Heresy: barely ever goes off. i cast it for a night, realized i was wasting power. it's for dueling, nothing else. Scourge: Is good, no lie. Fanatical Vengeance: Is the damage shield I was talking about, wake the hell up. Consecrated Aura: Only applies to autoattack damage, which is currently roughly 20% of melee class dps. so 28% of 20 is what? oh yeah, not much. and increasing our own pathetic melee dps by 28% barely makes a scratch Ruthless Invocation: Only stifles until the target is DAMAGED by anything at all. Oh look, that lasts about .01 seconds. I use this to complete HOs and nothing else, and until yesterday it was on a 25 second recast. now it is not so worthless, but it's still not great. Litany of Anguish: our one decent, solid nuke. yeah it's good. And let's still not forget that you guys get the chance to proc heal spells, which inquisitors are completely denied. Additionally, your lvl 50 self-stun spell is still a good reactive heal, while inquisitors get a rediculously bad, power intensive, haste spell (which is still worthless since only 20% of melee class dps comes from autoattack). </span><div></div>

[MrHell]

Guys, please dont fight. Inquisitors and Templars are both in the same boat. We used to be the best healers (templars more so) and now we are the same or wrose than other priests but didnt get anything in trade for losing our superior healing ability. If SOE wants to make all priests heal the same then they also need to bring each in line with DPS and utility. Thats all we ask. - D <div></div>

[AzraelAzgard]

<P>Atoning Fate is still bugged if a weapon proc or a buff that causes a weapon proc kills a mob that has Atoning fate on it then Atoning fate wont proc and heal the group like it should.</P> <P>We could do with higher base Mitigation or ability to buff more, I often see chain classes with more mitigation than my plate.</P> <P> </P> <P>Would be nice if Sanctuary was better and actually prevented control effects on many mobs. Be nice if Ad3 version was better than Ad1, make the Ad3 version last 45 seconds or had a shorter recast time.</P> <P> </P> <P>Interrupts are out of control if we get cast on with a DoT or melee'd its interrupt the game, cant cast anything. If you have used vessel of fyr un its mega interrupts too from DoT</P> <P> </P> <P>Manapools are still lower than other classes like Druids even though they now have the most efficent heals. And Warden maybe Fury too get extra out of combat regen.</P> <P> </P> <P>Does Unyielding Benediction offer any actual upgrade?</P> <P>Exactly same effects as Vigilant Benediction....</P> <P> </P> <P>Bounty of the Virtuous should be on its own recast timer.</P> <P> </P> <P>An upgrade to Symbol of Corruption would be nice.</P> <P> </P> <P> </P>

[AzraelAzgard]

Detect evil should be a buff that creates a yellow outline (kinda like erudite vision) around mobs that are classified as undead and will recieve double dmg from our strike nukes <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Xerxess]

<DIV>o o o how about a kite shield!...we should get Kite Shields!! or something better then a buckler hehe</DIV>

[AzraelAzgard]

Oh and Resurrect should bring the player back with more mana, like 50% really.

[AzraelAzgard]

<DIV>Ad3 Faithful Salvation needs to heal far more too.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>1.1k is not enough in T6.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Its like 15% of a normal tanks hp, raid tank its like 10%...</DIV>

[Belkeirun]

<P>An until canceled self only 'form' buff like druids/shamans get</P> <P> </P> <P>In the templars case maybe the form could be just an aura of light, but with focus buff (like the warden), and maybe a melee stun & dmg proc.</P> <P> </P> <P>Everyone should beware the templar armed with a brand and backed by divine power.</P>

[Kiara-]

<DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> dworkk wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <BLOCKQUOTE> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#cc99ff>They took the parry ability away for a reason.  And with templars in heavy armour it makes sense.  We're wearing plate for goodness' sake.  We're not going to be agile little monkies dodging every blow.  Or deflecting every blow.  We're supposed to get interrupted.  Now, granted, it might be a little too much interruption, but a bit of tweaking there could fix it nicely.</FONT></P> <P> </P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>It is fatiguing to fight in heavy armor, but fighters wearing this protective gear are far from the clumsy behemoths often portrayed in film. If armor were that encumbring, no fighter in his right mind would have bothered with it, because being slowed that much would be tantamount to suicide. Modern reconstructions have shown that fighters in full suits of mail or plate can perform cartwheels, leap up directly from the ground, and even sprint for short distances. Great endurance is obviously required to fight for long periods in armor, and men-at-arms trained in armor from childhood to be able to do so. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I dont think that parry is unreasonble. You might want to do some research into medevil armor before making uninformed statements</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#cc99ff>Actually I know a lot about medieval armour.  I'm an historian.  I got my degree in this.  But from the view point of the game, that is the reasoning.  I personally could wish for the parry skill back.  I'm content to lose dodge as it does make sense with the thinking behind the armour situation.  </FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#cc99ff></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#cc99ff>In reality the medieval (please note the correct spelling before getting on your high horse and presuming to know anything about my range of knowledge) armour that was actually WORN in combat was very light and the men who wore it incredidbly buff.  Combat was at lightning speeds and none of the hulking slow moving bs you see in movies.  It's a misconception.  Pure and simple.  However, it is a misconception that is a defining characteristic of the fantasy genre.  Therefore it applies as I stated previously to this game.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#cc99ff></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#cc99ff></FONT> </DIV><p>Message Edited by Kiara on <span class=date_text>10-21-2005</span> <span class=time_text>02:27 PM</span>

[Cowdenic]

<P>Things I would like to see for the Cleric classes.</P> <P>1. A Damage Shield, or a offensive buff (could be called Wrath of ??? whatever Diety) that would solo increase DPS. zero concentration and it would be our "Offensive Stance"</P> <P>2. a 3rd Direct heal line or maybe just have that Splitpaw heal be on its own timer. </P> <P>3. Some of our utility spells reworked. I like the mark line, for its divine debuff, I dont know if I have ever even noticed its 30 hp restored 5% of the time. </P> <P>4. Auto Attack DPS. I swing a huge Screaming Mace,  I usually have well over 225 STR, why do I hit for 40 points of damage?</P> <P>5. Raid healing, if you are going to have raid mobs that hit for over 5 and 6k a hit, you need to allow reactives, wards and hots to stack in raids.</P>

[SenorPhrog]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kiara wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> dworkk wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <BLOCKQUOTE> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#cc99ff>They took the parry ability away for a reason.  And with templars in heavy armour it makes sense.  We're wearing plate for goodness' sake.  We're not going to be agile little monkies dodging every blow.  Or deflecting every blow.  We're supposed to get interrupted.  Now, granted, it might be a little too much interruption, but a bit of tweaking there could fix it nicely.</FONT></P> <P> </P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>It is fatiguing to fight in heavy armor, but fighters wearing this protective gear are far from the clumsy behemoths often portrayed in film. If armor were that encumbring, no fighter in his right mind would have bothered with it, because being slowed that much would be tantamount to suicide. Modern reconstructions have shown that fighters in full suits of mail or plate can perform cartwheels, leap up directly from the ground, and even sprint for short distances. Great endurance is obviously required to fight for long periods in armor, and men-at-arms trained in armor from childhood to be able to do so. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I dont think that parry is unreasonble. You might want to do some research into medevil armor before making uninformed statements</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#cc99ff>Actually I know a lot about medieval armour.  I'm an historian.  I got my degree in this.  But from the view point of the game, that is the reasoning.  I personally could wish for the parry skill back.  I'm content to lose dodge as it does make sense with the thinking behind the armour situation.  </FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#cc99ff></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#cc99ff>In reality the medieval (please note the correct spelling before getting on your high horse and presuming to know anything about my range of knowledge) armour that was actually WORN in combat was very light and the men who wore it incredidbly buff.  Combat was at lightning speeds and none of the hulking slow moving bs you see in movies.  It's a misconception.  Pure and simple.  However, it is a misconception that is a defining characteristic of the fantasy genre.  Therefore it applies as I stated previously to this game.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#cc99ff></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#cc99ff>Nice try.  Feel free to play again sometime.</FONT></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Actually to add to this not only do I study history but I've focused most of mine on military history and dworrk you need to specify which period we are talking.   I mean of course we'll look past the fact that this is a game....</P> <P>The medieval armor such a full suits of armor worn by knights was so encumbering that combat was almost never done on horseback.   They actually dismounted and used pikes to form lines thus making them basically mounted infantry (of course towards the beginning of the age of firearms lancers were perfected and used lighter armor and lances).   Full plate suits were not worn by regular infantry because it was too expensive.  Most men were provided mainly a chest plate and a helmet and were fortunate to have it.   Yes you can sit down and watch Kingdom of Heaven or any movie showing crusade battles but what they don't show you is how the Templars and others were devastated in many battle due to their inflexibility with tactics. </P> <P>Just because somebody can do a cartwheel in 100 pounds of armor doesn't mean they could effectively parry a blow with <EM>a sword</EM>  <EM>(</EM>not mace which we all carry).</P> <P>Regardless though its strange how you are trying to use real life physics to argue a point in the game....</P>

[dwor]

<DIV>Ok so clearly you did not stay awake duiring school. Full plate armour became more and more extensive and sophisticated in the 15th Century, until the mail habergeoun all but disappeared; replaced by a padded 'arming doublet' with mail sewn onto the places not covered by plate (eg the underarms). A typical set of full field plate from Italy circa 1450 weighed by Claude Blair came in at 57 lb while a German field harness from 25 years earlier weighs 41 lb 13.5 oz.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The following quote from Gerry Embleton and John Howe's 'The Medieval Soldier' which sums up the question of the weight and encumbrance of late medieval armour quite nicely: <P> "There is no doubt that a fit man in well-fitting armour could run, jump into the saddle and climb a ladder.  Contemporary accounts and modern experiments prove this to be so - and how else could the knight and man-at-arms have fought and survived in battle?  Hollywood, confused by the surviving super-heavy, less articulated armours worn solely for the joust, has created a completely false impression of knights being lifted into the saddle by cranes, and lying helpless as turned turtles when knocked to the ground. The distinction between tournament armour and war armour is absolute.  In the latter the plates are attached to the body and the weight distributed, in a balanced way, allowing a man accustomed to it by long training sufficient agility to fight hand to hand.</P> <P> </P> <P> There exists a fifteenth century illustration of a knight turning a handstand or cartwheel in full armour, Froissart mentions Sir John Assueton leapin fully armed onto his warhorse; and Olivier de la March describes Galliot de Balthasin leaping fully armed out of the saddle 'as though he had on a pourpoint only' in 1446.  The chronicler Schilling even recorded that a 'man at arms in full armour was thrown off the bridge into the Moselle.  This same man called on St Nicholas for aid, and with the help of the saint managed to climb out of the river and survive.' "</P></DIV> <DIV>  An infantry soldier in everyday marching equipment from the Napoleonic period to the present day, has typically carried between 60 and 70 lbs, much less evenly distributed than the weight of an armour."  As a  radio operator in the airborne  US 5th SFG in the ealry 80's It was not uncommong for me to Jump wearing full combat gear weighing in at about 100 lbs and then add the 70 lbs for the parachute.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Contrary to adolecent fantasies of medieval warriors weilding massive two handed swords, the most common sword in the early middle ages was single handed and only weighed about 2-2.5 pounds.  This remained the case in the later period and, even when two-handed weapons were developed, they were rare and were only marginally heavier.  This made the average medieval sword about the same weight as the rapier-style blades of later centuries and they could be weilded with the same speed and precision.  Any Mel Gibson or <I>Highlander-</I>style buffoon on a real medieval battlefield would find himself dead before he even got his ridiculous Hollywood sword over his blue-painted head.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>There are several manuals on combat from the 14th and 15th century showing men in full plate doing  , Gasp! of all things parry</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG> <I>Sources:</I></STRONG> <P><I> Claude Blair, European Armour: C.1066 to C.1700 (1958: Batsford, London)</I></P> <P><I> David Edge and John Miles Paddock, Arms and Armour of the</I><BR><I> Medieval Knight(1988: Bison, London)</I></P> <P><I> A.V.B. (Spiny) Norman and G.M. Wilson, Treasures of the Tower</I><BR><I> of London: Arms and Armour (1982: Lund Humphries, London)</I></P> <P><I> Gerry Embleton and John Howe, The Medieval Soldier: 15th</I><BR><I> Century Campaign Life Recreated in Colour Photographs</I><BR><I> (1994: Windrow and Greene, London)</I></P> <P>Now I know this is High Fantasy but my point is that you said Templars cant parry they are weaing plate, you did not specify that "<FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#cc99ff>that is a defining characteristic of the fantasy genre.  Therefore it applies as I stated previously to this game." <FONT face=Arial color=#ffffff>in your original post. So next time you claim to be a historian over the internet please try to  at least know what your talking about.</FONT></FONT></P> <P>Also add to the fact this is game and that we can wear plate and swim like Mark Spitz</P></DIV> <P>Message Edited by dworkk on <SPAN class=date_text>10-21-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>05:44 AM</SPAN></P><p>Message Edited by dworkk on <span class=date_text>10-21-2005</span> <span class=time_text>06:27 AM</span>

[AzraelAzgard]

<DIV>Take the history to another thread theres no need to hijack this thread for some schooling.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>We could do with a special self buff like Shammies and Druids get, something along the lines of the EQ1 Cleric self buff with Hp, some mana, maybe mana regen, and a dmg shield, would be nice if one of our grp buffs could recieve the dmg proc again, I miss blessed weapon.</DIV>

[SenorPhrog]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> dworkk wrote:<BR> <DIV>Ok so clearly you did not stay awake duiring school. Full plate armour became more and more extensive and sophisticated in the 15th Century, until the mail habergeoun all but disappeared; replaced by a padded 'arming doublet' with mail sewn onto the places not covered by plate (eg the underarms). A typical set of full field plate from Italy circa 1450 weighed by Claude Blair came in at 57 lb while a German field harness from 25 years earlier weighs 41 lb 13.5 oz.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Wow it does seem you own some books and we all know how Military History is a core requirement in schools nowadays.   As stated above this isn't the place for a history lesson.   I could pick this apart all day by asking you to produce a set of medieval plate armor but...oh wait...there aren't hardly any in exsistence are there?   So most of what you are quoting are what experts believe and with decent reason.   60 lbs does while not as heavy as traditionally believed and still lighter than the average load on an ALICE system is still too much to effectively melee with when you compare it to a suit of mail or leather.</P> <P>The more I think about this the more insane I find myself for actually taking the time to dicuss real world physics in a fantasy game.   The outside world is your friend....<BR></P>

[dwor]

Actually Radar it is you that is missing the point completly, The point was made that Templars should not be able to parry in a fantasy game (thoough no one agues this about plate tanks tyvm) My point is that one can easily have Parry as viable option to improve Templars. After All we are talking Fantasy here. <p>Message Edited by dworkk on <span class=date_text>10-21-2005</span> <span class=time_text>07:08 AM</span>

[Kendricke]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Radar-X wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> dworkk wrote:<BR> <DIV>Ok so clearly you did not stay awake duiring school. Full plate armour became more and more extensive and sophisticated in the 15th Century, until the mail habergeoun all but disappeared; replaced by a padded 'arming doublet' with mail sewn onto the places not covered by plate (eg the underarms). A typical set of full field plate from Italy circa 1450 weighed by Claude Blair came in at 57 lb while a German field harness from 25 years earlier weighs 41 lb 13.5 oz.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Wow it does seem you own some books and we all know how Military History is a core requirement in schools nowadays.   As stated above this isn't the place for a history lesson.   I could pick this apart all day by asking you to produce a set of medieval plate armor but...oh wait...there aren't hardly any in exsistence are there?   So most of what you are quoting are what experts believe and with decent reason.   60 lbs does while not as heavy as traditionally believed and still lighter than the average load on an ALICE system is still too much to effectively melee with when you compare it to a suit of mail or leather.</P> <P>The more I think about this the more insane I find myself for actually taking the time to dicuss real world physics in a fantasy game.   The outside world is your friend....<BR></P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>I've got to take dworkk's side on this argument. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>My roommate is a modern "knight" who not only participates in, but helps run several Renaissance Faires (including an Artheruin Fantasy Faire, and the Wisconsin Ren Fest).  He's an active jouster, who is also a licensed martials arts instructor (Tae Kwon Doe).  He very, very, very much enjoys weapons an arms, as is evidenced by the rather large collection of armors we have in our basement. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>He'll be the first to tell you that the armor is not nearly as heavy as many believe it is (the weight is distributed across the body, especially when properly smithed and fitted) and that top of the line armor will not cut down nearly so much on your ability to move as many would think.  That said, he's not out performing at martial arts competitions in full field plate.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Certainly, even without the weight, that armor gets HOT.  Try walking around for just a day in JUST leather armor on even a mild September day and you'll know what I mean (yes, I have dressed up a time or two to assist him).  There's a world of difference in how tiring it is to walk around all day in street clothes or even half of a suit of full armor (chain mail's even worse in some ways).  It's not like that armor is just reflecting all the heat either. <BR> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><EM>My sources?</EM></DIV></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>He's the chap on the left in the below picture (3 year old picture):</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><IMG src="http://projoust.com/matthew2.jpg"></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And again...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><IMG src="http://projoust.com/matthew3.jpg"></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Once more?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><IMG src="http://projoust.com/matthew4.gif"></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>How about a shot of him explaining arms and armor to school children in California?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><IMG src="http://projoust.com/schoolshow7.jpg"></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>P.S. - Yes, I've also seen the Mythbusters episode you're undoubtably quoting as a "modern recreation", unless you're referring to one of several videos on the subject.  You can't live with my roommate unless you're willing to become a minor obsessive on the subject.  We've literally hundreds of books on the subject, as well as hundreds of individual pieces of arms and armor on display. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Marcus]

<DIV>Radar-X posted:</DIV> <DIV>'Actually to add to this not only do I study history but I've focused most of mine on military history and dworrk you need to specify which period we are talking.   I mean of course we'll look past the fact that this is a game....'</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Several posts later:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>'As stated above this isn't the place for a history lesson.'</DIV> <DIV>'...The more I think about this the more insane I find myself for actually taking the time to dicuss real world physics in a fantasy game.   The outside world is your friend....'</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>That was great.  Really.<BR></DIV>

[SenorPhrog]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> MarcusHT wrote:<BR> <DIV>Radar-X posted:</DIV> <DIV>'Actually to add to this not only do I study history but I've focused most of mine on military history and dworrk you need to specify which period we are talking.   I mean of course we'll look past the fact that this is a game....'</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Several posts later:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>'As stated above this isn't the place for a history lesson.'</DIV> <DIV>'...The more I think about this the more insane I find myself for actually taking the time to dicuss real world physics in a fantasy game.   The outside world is your friend....'</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>That was great.  Really.<BR></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>*edit*  This was too easy to insult and I almost bit.</DIV><p>Message Edited by Radar-X on <span class=date_text>10-21-2005</span> <span class=time_text>12:58 PM</span>

[Kiara-]

<DIV><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#cc99ff>You attacking whatever knowledge you think I have or don't have isn't going to get you anywhere.  Nor is attacking the other people who aren't jumping on the bandwagon with you.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#cc99ff></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#cc99ff>Making ridiculous and outrageous demands isn't going to help to better the game, or our class in particular.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#cc99ff></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#cc99ff>Well thought out, reasonable, and above all, civil discourse and commentary will.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#cc99ff></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#cc99ff>If you have reasonable concerns for the class, beyond the ZOMG!!!  I R NO LEET NE MOR!!!! then by all means, please, present them in a thoughtful intelligent manner.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#cc99ff></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#cc99ff>We're not going to get everything we want.  But if we can at least present ideas to the devs that are feasible within their image of the game, we can work out compromises we can all live with.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#cc99ff></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#cc99ff>I care about my class and the game.  If you have ideas that can make either better, then we're gold.  Otherwise, move aside for someone who will try to work within the system to make changes. </FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#cc99ff></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#cc99ff>* edited to remove rudeness </FONT></DIV><p>Message Edited by Kiara on <span class=date_text>10-21-2005</span> <span class=time_text>03:00 PM</span>

[Kendricke]

<P>A quick note, but all of Dworkk's notes from above can be found at <A href="http://www.[Removed for Content].com/Paris/Salon/2385/armour.html" target=_blank>http://www.[Removed for Content].com/Paris/Salon/2385/armour.html</A> ...including the sources (not all of which he used here).  If we're going to use the work as compiled there, I should think the original author should at least get a token link for credit.</P> <P><BR><BR> </P>

[bobdbutcherer]

<P>Well consider this thread hijacked...its no wonder we can't get anything accomplished...have  a great discussion with opposing thoughts and suddenly we are debating whether or not you could carwheel in suits of armor lol.</P> <P> </P> <P>Well maybe that's what we need Cartwheel (adept3), raises avoidance by 12.7% and causes 37 damage per tic to enemies withing 20m from side splittling laughter.</P> <P> </P> <P> </P>

[kenji]

<DIV>Purifying Flames: 24 second duration, relatively high power cost, and only decreased mitigation vs one save type (mental i believe). It's fine, but it's not an incredible nuke. <FONT color=#ffff00>(high cost doesnt means it's not good..just 1.5x Templar dmg)<BR></FONT>Heresy: barely ever goes off. i cast it for a night, realized i was wasting power. it's for dueling, nothing else. <FONT color=#ffff00>(unless the mob is a healer type, which all healers should prevent killing these.)<BR></FONT>Scourge: Is good, no lie. <FONT color=#ffff00>(aye...my 2nd dot just 35 dmg per tick, 2.5x dmg)<BR></FONT>Fanatical Vengeance: Is the damage shield I was talking about, wake the hell up. <FONT color=#ffff00>(best spell i can imagine for us plate wearer!)<BR></FONT>Consecrated Aura: Only applies to autoattack damage, which is currently roughly 20% of melee class dps. so 28% of 20 is what? oh yeah, not much. and increasing our own pathetic melee dps by 28% barely makes a scratch <FONT color=#ffff00>(funny...5 dps = 300 dmg per min too...)<BR></FONT>Ruthless Invocation: Only stifles until the target is DAMAGED by anything at all. Oh look, that lasts about .01 seconds. I use this to complete HOs and nothing else, and until yesterday it was on a 25 second recast. now it is not so worthless, but it's still not great.<FONT color=#ffff00> (at least its stifle effect will interrupt cast, while pacify cant even stop mob casting in the middle.)<BR></FONT>Litany of Anguish: our one decent, solid nuke. yeah it's good. <FONT color=#ffff00> (nuff said)<BR></FONT><BR>And let's still not forget that you guys get the chance to proc heal spells, which inquisitors are completely denied.  <FONT color=#ffff00>(in my memory , inquisitor got a buff that can steal mob's 150ish power to Inquisitor like 100ish...which help more...everyone know that 100 power use on RH = 800! heal), and have spell that cost extra for Extra Heal for  Each Heal (or any benefical spell)... equaled RH/GRH/DH.. really greatly balanced between us? hm...doubt it)</FONT></DIV>

[Dwork]

<P>Thanks Ken, I was kinda in rush trying to make that post and forgot to add the link. As for Kiara, You were the one that said that templars shouldn't have parry because they wear plate. All my rather long post was to just show that parry was a viable option to help improve our class. After all I really dont think that templars having parry would be game breaking feature.</P> <P>As for SoE , this is last post on these boards as one of my accounts has expired and this one should expire today. SoE Will never see a dime of money again. I hope that all will be will well with you and that you continue to find the game fun, but really expect to see EQ2 join AC2 .</P> <P> </P><p>Message Edited by Dworkk2 on <span class=date_text>10-22-2005</span> <span class=time_text>02:07 AM</span>

[AzraelAzgard]

<P>Gogo thread hijack guys.</P> <P> </P> <P>An issue for all Priests, Divine Intervention (save from death) spell need a far bigger heal attached to them in all versions, especially the ad3.</P> <P>Instead of a raw numbe it should be a % heal, 1k is ridiculously low, 1.1k heal is usually not enough for a tank to survive 1 or 2 hits after being saved in an xp group, never mind on a raid!</P> <P> </P> <P>It should be something like App1 15%, App2 20%, App3 25%, App4 30%, Ad1 35%, Ad3 50%, M1 75%, M3 100% of targets max hp restored upon being saved.</P> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This would be far better in terms of the spells use, how well it can function in groups and especially raids and the upgrades would be meaningfull, % hp restored improvements that scale with your tank (far better) rather than 100 hp more from Ad1 to Ad3 - pathetic.</DIV>

[Analviper]

<P>Suggestions for improving templar</P> <P>1). Kite shileds - we wear the same armour as tanks logic dictates we should be able 2 use same shild, and besides the stats on most shileds are hardly tank friendly!! Most have 15 wis and such</P> <P>2). Damage Shield - never played eq1 but sounds like it would help alot if we coud deal even a bit of damage while casting heals</P> <P>3). Improve the MARK spell - Dont think ive ever seen that spell work effectively and i cast it most fights</P> <P>4). Atoning fate - perhaps should heal for more to help with group encounters (random suggestion)</P> <P>5). Soothe/Prostrate - just need tweaking, perhaps prostrate to last longer and soothe to actually de-aggro the mob and a recast timer?</P> <P>6). Hammer - again never played eq1 but from what ive heard would make soloing just that little quicker, because lets be honest 5 - 10 min battles with white mobs is a joke</P> <P>7). Bounty of virtuous - needs to be on a seperate timer </P> <P><img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />. DPS - ok i know we never going to be a DAMAGE class but please 200-300 per hit for a level 50+ at adept 3 is just insulting</P> <P>and finally </P> <P>9). Armor - we wear the heaviest armour in the game yet we bruise like peaches, at least if we are sacrifcing our avoidance we should be able to adsorb more damage. tank/cleric should be taking the same damage from a hit if in the same armour! FACT and we all know thats not the case</P> <P>Galv 52 Templar</P> <P>Neriak serv</P>

[Elend]

As far as soloing goes, I think we are fine because we really arent meant to be a solo class. We can still solo if we need/want to, but it sucks. ((although getting the eq1 hammer would be pretty cool)) I think the area where we need work is grouping situations. I personally think we have quite a bit of utility.... when it comes to healing, and only healing (Mark line and involuntary healing line to be more exact).  Infact, I find playing a templar much more fun after LU13 when im in a group. My problem comes in where we are now only marginally the best healers. I know i can keep a group alive by myself, but so can shamans and druids. So i really dont see any diversity between the classes when it comes to healing other then our titles and reactive/hots/wards. I'd really like to see shamans and druids have their healing reduced and have more other useful utlity in group situations. In groups I find i have to almost compete for heals since druids think theyre just as good as me now, which sucks, because i chose this class to be the main healer without question. The other day i had to take the backseat in 2 groups as main healer for a warden.... twice! Some changes that i would like to see: Shamans being primarily used for debuffing/slowing mobs (dont know how effective they are at it currently) Druids being a good emergency life saver/DPS/other-random-group-utility So all in all, i like the changes that the templars recieved in LU13, (i would agree that some things need tweeking), but I really think that the cleric class should be, without a debt the best healers to have in a group. <div></div>

[Dremi]

This has probably been said before so forgive my lack of reading time please. I feel Templars need the following: 1. heal lines need to be independant. Too many deaths happen because of the timer issues. 2. possibly add another instant heal that is a midrange heal. This would help us keep the group alive. 3. up our heal shield heals higher than druid regen. For crying out loud we should be able to OUT HEAL DRUIDS! 4. this heal balance stuff needs to stop. I Templar/Inq should be the best healers hands down. Druids and Shamans should be second and third. Basically let us role play the role we should play namely being the life support of the party. I'm not asking for more DPS or more AC. Just allow me to play my preferred class right. Things that I do to keep my group living: 1. Use your mark line, etc... on enemies- free heals and if played smart this is a big advantage for us. 2. It is a must to have good spells. Currently we do not have a choice in this matter thanks to SOE. APP III's are a must to be truly effective. 3. become a prophet and predict damage to your group mates....LOL!!!!!! I solo 85% of the time so I always get the best armor made this  is a must to be a good solo'er as a Templar. I don't solo because of want to but because of time. I love player a cleric. Just some ideas.... <div></div>

[Supernova17]

<span><blockquote><hr>Analviper wrote:<div></div><p>tank/cleric should be taking the same damage from a hit if in the same armour! FACT and we all know thats not the case</p> <p> </p><hr></blockquote>I have to call foul here. Why should Clerics and Tanks take the same damage? Tanks can buff their Defense - Parry - Avoidance etc abilities to improve their mitigation and avoidance stats. Tanks retain the Parry skill while Priests do not and when using Tower or Kite shields Plate tanks have a far higher block % than we do with our dinner plate bucklers. There is every reason why we take more damage than a plate tank. They're designed by their class and class specific buffs to take less damage while we are designed by our class and class specific spells etc to prevent damage or heal against it. My 42 Paladin has 2500 mitigation and 44% avoidance in defensive stance as well as the higher block rate on his Kite Shield. My 59 Templar has 2200 mitigation and 17% avoidance as well as the extremely low block rate on my Buckler. If you compared a 59 Pally to my 59 Templar, the gap would be even bigger, and there is every reason why I should be taking more damage. </span><div></div>

[Caethre]

<DIV>OOC.</DIV> <DIV>I've been asked by several people to update this thread. I *must* sleep right now, but I'll bring it up to date tomorrow (assuming I can grab 15 minutes at work to do it).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Felishanna/Annaelisa.</DIV>

[Stjarna Kvar]

InterruptsKite Shield to raise our mitigation.Linked Timers for healsCelestial Heal Line -- See below.Healing PowerCelestial Heal Line -- A regen style heal, that while not as powerful as a warden or fury, but allowing us to be a bit more useful when dealing with Avoidance Tanks or Warding Tanks. Adds a bit more umph in those tight situations.Solo CapabilityDivine Aura Line -- I like the idea of a Holy Aura damage shield. I like the idea of costing 1, or 2 concentration points, but make its duration akin to Warden/Fury damage shield lines (1/2 the actual damage values).Kite Shield to raise our mitigation.UtilityTurn Undead -- AOE Undead Fear. This ability is missing from the Cleric archtype, and inquisitors should get it as well.

[Takeo1]

<P> </P> <P>Hmm...</P> <P> </P> <P>1. a base 5% bump in avoidance, and the return of the parry skill - for ALL priests.</P> <P>2. Mark line made proc-less in combat HoT with a heal value of 50-75 at Ad1 with mana cost increased minimum 50%.</P> <P>3. Curate line made proc-less in combat HoT with heal value at current Test levels with mana cost increased 50%.</P> <P>4. The addition of a stun component (minimum 3 secs) to all DDs, excluding AoE, OR an increase of single target DD AND AoE DD damage by a minimum 50%.</P> <P>5. The elimination of the Sign line altogether, or a return to it previous strength debuff levels with AoE effect.</P> <P>6. Soothe made AoE, without a single target/group max. Cast 3 secs, rec/recast 6 secs, duration 30 secs. With skill, this could be a viable alternative to invis.</P> <P>Edit:</P> <P>7. The introduction of Templar only forms that come WITH the Prae line...its just fluff - but hey, I could go for being something sorta angelic....</P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P>Lates.</P> <P> </P> <P> </P><p>Message Edited by Takeo101 on <span class=date_text>11-07-2005</span> <span class=time_text>03:03 PM</span>

[Timaarit]

Mitigation should affect the chance of being interrupted. For example if you have 50% mitigation, you have 50% chance to resist an interrupt. <div></div>

[Xerxess]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Caethre wrote:<BR> <DIV>OOC.</DIV> <DIV>I've been asked by several people to update this thread. I *must* sleep right now, but I'll bring it up to date tomorrow (assuming I can grab 15 minutes at work to do it).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Felishanna/Annaelisa.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Im sorry to get off topic a bit but I have to ask this questions...</P> <P>Why do you start all your posts with "OOC"?? I was just curious thats all...</P>

[Jida]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Xerxess wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Caethre wrote:<BR> <DIV>OOC.</DIV> <DIV>I've been asked by several people to update this thread. I *must* sleep right now, but I'll bring it up to date tomorrow (assuming I can grab 15 minutes at work to do it).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Felishanna/Annaelisa.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Im sorry to get off topic a bit but I have to ask this questions...</P> <P>Why do you start all your posts with "OOC"?? I was just curious thats all...</P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>OOC = Out of Character. She roleplays the game mainly. therefore when talking normally on boards and such she elects to OOC =)

[Caethre]

<DIV>OOC.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>List updated again.</DIV> <DIV>And Xerxess - as Jida said. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Felishanna / Annaelisa.</DIV>

[CasieStarfi]

<P>I love this thread!  ok, coulda done without the weird hijack posts about rl people running around in armor...  but still!  Thanks Felishanna.  =)</P> <DIV><EM>1. </EM></DIV> <DIV>Unlink BoV.  All healers would benefit and it would give us a little something to throw while we are standing around waiting for recast timers.  Almost all of us like this idea!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><EM>2.</EM></DIV> <DIV>Divine Arbitration (adept 1 and 3) is losing what percent of hit points?  Both looks like 10%?  It says it becomes more efficient with upgrades but we need some clarification here.  Also its 15 min reuse timer is toooo long.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><EM></EM> <DIV>3.</DIV></DIV> <DIV><EM>Power and Health</EM></DIV> <DIV>Before LU13 we had the lowest  power pool because our heals themselves were more powerful.  We had the lowest health pools because we wore heavy armor.  However since so much care has been given to balancing all of our heal amounts, and our heavy armor is no longer such an asset...perhaps we could get our power and health boosted a bit in return.  I know a really great warden that can buff his power pool 1k more than mine.  He rocks!  But I can't get him to put it on me during raids.  He's selfish like that!  ; )</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[AzraelAzgard]

<DIV>The post needs to contain requests for fixes for current spells, rather they fixed what we have first before giving us more stuff that could end up being broken too.</DIV>

[Sokolov]

<div></div>One comment about named encounters - post-vamp I've found them to be significantly more difficult than their placeholders.  I don't think any priest type can say they have no trouble with those encounters.  My healer is a twink and she has major issues with many named, especially of the caster variety.  And yes, the problem is the recast timers, not the spells themselves.  The way we've been dealing with it in my groups is to co-ordinate stuns/stifles/defensive abilities to give me extra time to heal.  I realize this isn't really an option for Pick-Up Groups, but it does increase efficiency, even when dealing with non-named. And... HAMMER PET HAMMER PET! I have to say that the hammer pet was one of the coolest spells on EQ1 and I'd love to see it here - bigger and more ornate with every upgrade to the line. <div></div><p>Message Edited by Sokolov on <span class=date_text>11-14-2005</span> <span class=time_text>05:47 AM</span>

[BenEm]

<P>Templars need to be at there best when wearing the armor that they were designed to be wearing and we were all sold that this would be to our advantage .</P> <P>Templars need a more usefull Utility and the 1st line that needs to go is the Mezz line ...trade this for something a Templar should be doing like Root .</P> <P>Other than that I am very happy with Temps post LU 13 . No I dont like how slow we solo but we didnt solo well before and this is something they wont change because it will screw up PvP balance ...which sucks we have to go through all of this just for PvP balance .</P>

[Skydude]

<DIV>LOL PvP balance? All players find it more difficult to PvP me than just about any toon. I have won one PvP encounter and drew a draw in a multitude. I can't be killed, but neither can I kill them. Only thing really funny was it was a zerker I defeated that was in good armor, he just screwed up. Useless for us to PvP anyone thats any good. If you have power regen equipment and are efficient with your heals we will not go down. I have better things to do than sit and fight a player for 20 minutes with basically no reward.</DIV>

[Tild]

<P>I happen to think that giving Templars a powerful self only damage shield for soloing is an excellent idea, and a far better idea then increasing their nuke power in solo situations.  Why?</P> <P>Well, first, Templars wear plate and should get hit more often solo then druids or shammys, so it would actually be useful as it would hit the mob more often then it would if they wore lighter armor.  Increases mitigation is supposed to offset the loss of avoidance in this situation, so they are going to get hit more, but for less when they do.  Also, this encourages Templars to wear their high wis low int plate armor at all times, as they will get hit more often in plate and therefor get more DS dmg, and prevents them from having to switch gear when soloing for increased int, emphasizeing the most important stat to priests.  Also, it encourages Templars to do what they do best, heal, while letting auto attack and the DS take care of the mob, instead of encouraging what they do worst, spell dmg and melee dmg.</P> <P>This is a creative and all around solid idea,</P>

[BenEm]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Skydude wrote:<BR> <DIV>LOL PvP balance? All players find it more difficult to PvP me than just about any toon. I have won one PvP encounter and drew a draw in a multitude. I can't be killed, but neither can I kill them. Only thing really funny was it was a zerker I defeated that was in good armor, he just screwed up. Useless for us to PvP anyone thats any good. If you have power regen equipment and are efficient with your heals we will not go down. I have better things to do than sit and fight a player for 20 minutes with basically no reward.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR> Exactly ! Quite a shame that LU 13 's main purpose and the driving force behind such huge changes was for mere PvP balance aye !?  I hope they gained that big PvP crowd and I hope it makes up for all that quit do to the PvP balancing .  </P> <P>Think you read my post wrong Sky ...no doubts we are great in PvP ....to bad PvP sucks and has no part in this game . Unfortunately this is absolutely why you wont get help for those asking for more DPS to solo with   ! They just plain cant we are too good already in PvP . </P> <P> </P>

[Skydude]

<DIV>No bro I read you right, I just agreed with you in an abstract way. Sad shame people think our plate armor really helps us, its one reason you see all the Templars running around in Invokers and leather or fabled chain.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I should just quit the game. I feel so often slighted by SOE doing their chicken with their heads cut off updates. It doesn't matter what class you play they'll break it soon enough with ineffective testing.</DIV>

[zorbdan]

<P>The templar needs an alchemist to provide them with endless potions. Damage shield, power regen, hps boost , mitigation, power boost etc.. all these potions fit templars needs pretty well.</P> <P>Templar/Alchemist is a pretty decent class choice combo.</P> <P>Tamplars lack DPS right ? </P> <P>How many things can you think of that will add to your templars dps ? </P> <P>Armor procs, weapon procs, damage shields potions etc ...  </P> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>It's too bad I can't make a Templar/Woodworker/Alchemist</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Then I could have Sow and Invis too...... but wait I can ! Thats what a Fury/Warden is !..</DIV><p>Message Edited by zorbdan on <span class=date_text>11-15-2005</span> <span class=time_text>10:31 AM</span>

[Sleet_Levanter]

<P>I've not read this entire thread, nor do I intend to, however I did do a search on avoidance and did not see the following suggestion anywhere.</P> <P> </P> <P>Given the fact that templars (and inquisitors) were affected by the decreased avoidance for plate classes and the fact that templars (and every other priest) was affected by the loss of riposte, I would like to have a single target avoidance buff that uses a concentration slot.  I do not have a good idea of how much avoidance it should add, but enough avoidance to significantly reduce the number of times I am interrupted when soloing a group of three or four mobs would be most welcome.</P> <P> </P> <P> </P>

[zorbdan]

Does it make any sense that the priest classes with the least avoidance gets a long timer heal and the classes with the highest avoidance gets the short timer heals ?

[Xerxess]

<DIV>we should sticky this thread!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Mod sticky the thread!</DIV>

[Caethre]

<DIV>OOC.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Updated this thread again to here.</DIV>

[Kayle]

I'm just going to add what I wrote in another thread to this list here.  The link was at <A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=13&message.id=15246" target=_blank>http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=13&message.id=15246</A> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>After much consideration, I feel just one fix or two won't solve the overall class discrepancies, so I'm going to have to say that a revamp to the revamp is in order where certain classes are prohibted from interacting with opposing factions and only then can the fixes listed here become a viable reality.  IMO, there are just too many priest classes with no prohibitive measures in place, thus weakening their abilities to the point where the class is not as fun as it could be.</DIV><p>Message Edited by Kaylena on <span class=date_text>11-16-2005</span> <span class=time_text>06:40 AM</span>

[Kayle]

<P>Also, I'm requesting that Kendricke's post at <A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=13&message.id=15176" target=_blank>http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=13&message.id=15176</A> be locked as this thread was listed on 9-27 by Caethre and Kendricke posted the EXACT same thread again on 11-15 in an attempt to trump hers.</P> <P>I believe this type of annoyance needs to stop on these boards and therefore I'm reporting that thread, requesting it be locked as redundant and unnecessary congestion, posted to annoy Caethre.</P>

[Kayle]

Raijinn, can we also get this post stickied please?  We only need one thread for the devs to read for actual suggestions.  If someone needs to point something out in a different thread, then they can link it within this one for them to read.  It just makes more sense if we're going to get anything accomplished sometime this year. 

[bigmak20]

nice consolidation. I'l reiterate to reinforce the #1 issue imo.  <u>Interrupts.  Mitigation should mitigate the possibility of interrupts.</u>  I think by a  large factor that's also scaled to increase against lower cons.  Greys, greens, and down arrows should not interrupt much ever. I think <u>Reverence should be replaced with a short cast large direct heal on a seperate 11.5 second timer.</u>  We need a way to bring a grp member back from the brink.  Right now we have no such tools -- and the other priests do. <u>Balance DPS delivered in 30 seconds</u> - There's suggestions about offensive stances and conc slots etc, -- I disagree.  If other priest get healing -and- DPS so they can benefit a group DOING BOTH I don't see why we can't.  But -- any help right now would be a good thing.  DPS should be balanced to be equal over a 30 second fight for all priests.

[cadrach]

<P>Bug?</P> <P>Sign of infirmity does not scale with upgrades only level.</P>

[bigmak20]

I started a thread on this because I think it may have been a moment of enlightenment -- <b>Wisdom Should Matter when it comes to healing power!</b> I think that one thing would make the Templar class viable again. Then fix the other issues that have been mentioned in this thread and we're all good.

[Kayle]

You should link that thread to this compilation Big, so it's easier for the devs to find.  :smileyhappy:

[KingOfF00LS]

Are there still "Class Correspondents"?  One thing I think we really need badly is a good class representative, and we don't have that right now.  Is there a method in place to nominate someone who's valuable to the Templar community? <div></div>

[BenEm]

Caethre ! Shes my pick !

[BenEm]

Awesome suggestion ! makes perfect sense !

[SenorPhrog]

<span><blockquote><hr>KingOfF00LS wrote:Are there still "Class Correspondents"?  One thing I think we really need badly is a good class representative, and we don't have that right now.  Is there a method in place to nominate someone who's valuable to the Templar community? <div></div><hr></blockquote>There aren't going to be any "class correspondents" based on what I've heard but feel free to ask for them...ummm wherever you would post that.  That was something that gave relatively little success to SWG (player turnover and all) and ends up putting in one person with too much power.   Everyones voice needs to be heard not just one.</span><div></div>

[KingOfF00LS]

<span><blockquote><hr>Radar-X wrote:<span>  That was something that gave relatively little success to SWG (player turnover and all) and ends up putting in one person with too much power.   Everyones voice needs to be heard not just one.</span><div></div><hr></blockquote>Well, I wasn't thinking of it as a power position.  Just someone to take notes and forward along the gist of what we're talking about as far as bugs, balance, etc.  But I can see your point that some would use it only to advance their own wishes for the class, and I can imagine somene who would be like that.  So your point is taken. </span><div></div>

[BenEm]

Bump for this thread to be stickied !!! lets keep all in one thread !!

[BenEm]

<P>**REMOVED INAPPROPRIATE COMMENTS**</FONT></P><p>Message Edited by Raijinn Thunderguard on <span class=date_text>11-21-2005</span> <span class=time_text>01:30 PM</span>

[Kayle]

<DIV>It's too bad Moorgard had to clarify that.  But anyone who looked at the healing lines would know it's quite impossible to make them "equal".  The question still remains:  Does making them heal for about the same work in this game?  And my feeling is a resounding NO!</DIV><p>Message Edited by Kaylena on <span class=date_text>11-16-2005</span> <span class=time_text>04:12 PM</span>

[Xerxess]

<DIV>one more time lets sticky the thread</DIV>

[gtasmil]

Let me first apologize for the flamebait with the parry comment.  I in no way intended, or even thought, it would go in that direction. TY. After gaining another 5 levels (and upgrading armor, spells, and weapon/buckler) I am decently satisfied with the current state of templars.  I think we all need to learn both the strengths and weaknesses of the class and deal with them for the time being.  We all agree we could use a little tweaking.  Hopefully SOE reads this thread and gets some good ideas on how to make us function more efficiently. Thanks, Silvanos 53 Templar QHG Steamfont <div></div>

[SenorPhrog]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> BenEmma wrote:<BR>Bump for this thread to be stickied !!! lets keep all in one thread !! <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>I understand you'd like this stickied but you do realize that Raijinn can lock a thread for it being bumped right?   Bumping doesn't really bother me, but it does SOE.

[BenEm]

<P>**REMOVED INAPPROPRIATE COMMENTS**</FONT></P><p>Message Edited by Raijinn Thunderguard on <span class=date_text>11-21-2005</span> <span class=time_text>01:30 PM</span>

[bigmak20]

<DIV>.. and</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>2 new direct heals on seperate and short recast timers so we can heal almost as good as Furies at 58+</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[zorbdan]

<DIV>1. bumping threads is illegal here</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>2. '' templars are fine ''</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>lol I had to .....</DIV><p>Message Edited by zorbdan on <span class=date_text>11-18-2005</span> <span class=time_text>09:40 AM</span>

[Mayl]

<div></div>I would like to suggest (if I may), that if your suggestion was already posted. Post it again. It just shows who all is on what page.  With that said....<hr>My 2 cp.<font color="#ffff00">(1) Interrupts.</font>Nasty. Interrupts and Fizzles are way high. Maybe fixing Mit will resolve the issue with interrupts. Fizzles need to be tweeked. I think the later is a problem for all priests.<font color="#ffff00">(2) Solo Capablilty / DPS</font>I really cant say anything on this one. I chose a Templar to be a pure healer. Plain and simple. Soloing is not what I wanted to do (or i would not have rolled a Templar, probably would have rolled a necro). With that said, I understand there are those who do not have a wife (husband)/girlfriend (boyfriend)/room mate that play to use to do quests. In this case, the self only damage shield seems like the most logical option.I dont think we should have our DPS increased. That is not why we became Templars.Hammer pet is not a bad idea either.<font color="#ffff00">(3) Utility</font>Again, this is not why I choose a Templar. Pure healing with no thrills. It is not my job to mez, increase DPS, slow or anything else a utility characters role is. The only thing I would ask is our mit/health buffs get a boost. Leave the crowd control and debuffs/buffs (str, agi, wis, ect) to the proper classes.<font color="#ffff00">(4) Linked timers for heals.</font><font color="#ffff00"></font>I dont think unlinking will happen. I would like to see recast times shaved some. Nothing earth shattering, just a second or two<font color="#ffff00">(5) Fixes to Existing Spells</font>Since some common ones are covered. I thought I would point out the reactives. (maybe this is only me. I have not seen anyone mention it. So, it could be just me. If so please say so. And I will figure it out on my end.) I have seen times when a group member would get hit and a reactive would fail to go off. Hopeing its a bug, and I am not the only Templar that has seen it.<font color="#ffff00">(6) Healing Power</font>Aside from what I pointed out with the reactives, I would like to see something we can use for the avoidance tanks. Reactives just dont cut it. When they get hit, its hard. Since they dont get hit often, reactives are not viable, when it comes to an avoidance tank. No Hit, No Heal. Where as Regen dont care if your getting hit or not, It just keeps ticking away.<font color="#ffff00">Are Templars Fine?</font>Nope. We are broke. Tweeks to current spells would go a long way, just not a complete fix.Again, just my 2 cp.Thanks for putting this up Caethre. Hopefully this will shine some posative communication to the devs on Templars at last.<div></div>

[Timaarit]

<span><blockquote><hr>Maylar wrote:<div></div>I would like to suggest (if I may), that if your suggestion was already posted. Post it again. It just shows who all is on what page.  With that said....<hr><font color="#ffff00">(6) Healing Power</font>Aside from what I pointed out with the reactives, I would like to see something we can use for the avoidance tanks. Reactives just dont cut it. When they get hit, its hard. Since they dont get hit often, reactives are not viable, when it comes to an avoidance tank. No Hit, No Heal. Where as Regen dont care if your getting hit or not, It just keeps ticking away.<font color="#ffff00">Are Templars Fine?</font>Nope. We are broke. Tweeks to current spells would go a long way, just not a complete fix.Again, just my 2 cp.Thanks for putting this up Caethre. Hopefully this will shine some posative communication to the devs on Templars at last.<div></div><hr></blockquote>I was in a raid situation with my 55 templar last night with a 57 fury. After raid, parsing showed that she had healed mt for 5% less than me. Mt was a lvl 60 paladin. Now the 'funny' part is that she was healing out side the group as well while I focused on mt group. I was using my single target reactive and group reactive, both were usually gone in seconds, so according to Kendridge, I should have had a really big healing advantage since I was spamming my reactives and none was wasted. But I didn't as the parses showed. Raid ended up in a failure since healers ran oop, so we really did use all out power for healing. I had two GoC's up and used all my 'utility' also. As far as I am concerned, my point is prowen, templars are not the best healers anymore.</span><div></div>

[Caethre]

<P>OOC.</P> <P>Updated again to here.</P>

[Xerxess]

<DIV>i don't even think Devs read the templar boards anymore =(</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Ask for sticky but all I get is crickets =</DIV>

[Caethre]

<P>OOC.</P> <P>I believe several have requested it personally. I received no reply, so, /shrug, perhaps Raijinn does not wish to have a stickied post on our forum? It makes little difference, I will maintain the list and put updates to it as requested, regardless, for as long as people want to post updates to it. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P><p>Message Edited by Caethre on <span class=date_text>11-19-2005</span> <span class=time_text>05:17 PM</span>

[Topi]

<P>You know what would be cool? Make templars beable to handle any healing situation. i dont mean make then heal better ot this or that but give us lots of differnt heals on differnt timers healing this and that with differnt effects. to be honest id rather have a cople more direct heals on differnt timers then reactive heals at this point.</P> <P>Lots of differnt direct heals on differnt timers and power cost, strength of heal and even effects on it. if you want to make templar unique make evenything they do result in healing someone. not for a ton but it adds up. </P> <P>instead of a druid thorn shield have templrs have a healing shield. each time the subject gets hit have it heal them fo a couple points of dame. not a 5 to shoot off or anything like that but a low heal per hit in line with the druids thorns.</P> <P>Personaly i wont care if i can solo or not if i can get groups and im needed, not becuase im better but becuase i bring an expertise on healing able to handle any situation. I think if templars gravitated to that area that would be cool. healing and lots of it. having two direct heals in reasonably long timers in my opinion is not a cleric.</P> <P>i love glory of combat btw</P> <P>p.s. do not know if this was all said yet. i skipped to the end and put what i think in, everybody needs to voice their opinion or we will see our class changed by those who post more than play. </P> <P> </P>

[bigmak20]

<DIV>I like your idea Topika.  Replace reverence with a HoT and some other worthless lotto spell with a Regen.</DIV>

[Mayl]

<span>Replies in <font color="#ff0000">red</font><blockquote><hr>Topika wrote:<div></div> <p>You know what would be cool? Make templars beable to handle any healing situation. i dont mean make then heal better ot this or that but give us lots of differnt heals on differnt timers healing this and that with differnt effects. to be honest id rather have a cople more direct heals on differnt timers then reactive heals at this point. <font color="#ff0000"> </font></p> <p><font color="#ff0000">I don't see us getting a couple more direct heals. we currently have 4. 3 single target, one group </font></p> <p>Lots of differnt direct heals on differnt timers and power cost, strength of heal and even effects on it. if you want to make templar unique make evenything they do result in healing someone. not for a ton but it adds up. </p> <p><font color="#ff0000">We use to have an effect on our small direct heal. Think it increased offense (its been so long, I don't recall). They took it away, so I dont think we will be getting it back.</font> </p> <p>instead of a druid thorn shield have templrs have a healing shield. <b>each time the subject gets hit have it heal them fo a couple points of dame</b>. not a 5 to shoot off or anything like that but a low heal per hit in line with the druids thorns. </p> <p><font color="#ff0000">You just described a reactive.</font> </p> <p>Personaly i wont care if i can solo or not if i can get groups and im needed, not becuase im better but becuase i bring an expertise on healing able to handle any situation. I think if templars gravitated to that area that would be cool. healing and lots of it. having two direct heals in reasonably long timers in my opinion is not a cleric. </p> <p><font color="#ff0000">If they change it like this, it will also be made that way for druids and shamans. Right now, we hold a slight edge on mit tanks. its the only thing that gives us a "role", a purpose.</font> </p> <p>i love glory of combat btw </p> <p><font color="#ff0000">GoC, Mark and Involuntary lines are all lotto heals. Increaseing the chance of them triggering would be nice.</font> </p> <p>p.s. do not know if this was all said yet. i skipped to the end and put what i think in, everybody needs to voice their opinion or we will see our class changed by those who post more than play.</p><hr></blockquote></span><div></div>

[Timaarit]

<span><blockquote><hr>Maylar wrote: <span>Replies in <font color="#ff0000">red</font><blockquote><p>Personaly i wont care if i can solo or not if i can get groups and im needed, not becuase im better but becuase i bring an expertise on healing able to handle any situation. I think if templars gravitated to that area that would be cool. healing and lots of it. having two direct heals in reasonably long timers in my opinion is not a cleric. </p> <p><font color="#ff0000">If they change it like this, it will also be made that way for druids and shamans. Right now, we hold a slight edge on mit tanks. its the only thing that gives us a "role", a purpose.</font> </p><hr></blockquote></span><div></div><hr></blockquote>Actually Porcupine removes this advantage. Our furies cast this whenever it is up, how many templars do the same to Focused Benefaction? What I have noticed about templars is that we actually lack the ability to heal damage after it is done. Our reactives heal only if target is hit and our single heals are on the lower end of priests. Thus we have serious problems when anyone gets hit while reactives are not up. HoT's have no such limitation, they will heal after they are cast if there is anything to heal. Part of the problem I have with my templar is that I cannot react to anything, all I can do is to try to keep reactives up and if something happens, all I can do is to hope that target is killed before anyone in group is. Reactives work a bit like wards, they can heal if damage is less that what reactive heals but they acn also let damage through for every hit. Exeption is that at least wardens heal lot better than templars do after those specialty spells. Here is an example; someone in group gets aggro and takes huge damage before mt gets aggro back. Now what can a templar do? Target that someone and cast a direct heal with long cast time while mt gets pounded. What does a druid do? Cast a group HoT which heals mt and that someone alike. This is why people who get aggro in my groups die. Thing is that they dont die while grouping with a fury.</span><div></div>

[Cowdenic]

<P>Maylar </P> <P>Sure would like to know what are third single target Direct heal line is that is not on the same timer as the other 2. I aint found it yet, but i am only 57.</P>

[bigmak20]

<span><blockquote><hr>Cowdenicus wrote:<p>Maylar </p> <p>Sure would like to know what are third single target Direct heal line is that is not on the same timer as the other 2. I aint found it yet, but i am only 57.</p> <div></div><hr></blockquote>Templar's have a 3rd direct heal?  I'm 60; I haven't found it yet either.  Maybe he's referring to the -reactive-  we use that stuns us while the group dies (Focused Benefaction)?  Or the group health deplete spell we have that lowers the health of the group (Divine Arrbitration -- that is NOT a heal it should go in all the charts with a NEGATIVE heal factor.  It's ok as a last ditch save spell but do NOT call that a heal). Right now Templars are the worst healers in the game at 58+ and to top that off we have no DPS or utility.  If you think our utility is healing you obviously have never looked into all the healing utility other priests get -- they get healing utility -and- other utility.   </span><div></div>

[Mayl]

<span><blockquote><hr>Timaarit wrote:<span><blockquote><hr>Maylar wrote: <span>Replies in <font color="#ff0000">red</font><blockquote><p>Personaly i wont care if i can solo or not if i can get groups and im needed, not becuase im better but becuase i bring an expertise on healing able to handle any situation. I think if templars gravitated to that area that would be cool. healing and lots of it. having two direct heals in reasonably long timers in my opinion is not a cleric. </p> <p><font color="#ff0000">If they change it like this, it will also be made that way for druids and shamans. Right now, we hold a slight edge on mit tanks. its the only thing that gives us a "role", a purpose.</font> </p><hr></blockquote></span><hr></blockquote>Actually Porcupine removes this advantage. Our furies cast this whenever it is up, how many templars do the same to Focused Benefaction? <font color="#ff0000">Thank you for pointing that out. <span>:smileywink:</span></font> <b> What I have noticed about templars is that we actually lack the ability to heal damage after it is done. Our reactives heal only if target is hit and our single heals are on the lower end of priests</b>. Thus we have serious problems when anyone gets hit while reactives are not up. <b>HoT's have no such limitation, they will heal after they are cast if there is anything to heal</b>. Part of the problem I have with my templar is that I cannot react to anything, all I can do is to try to keep reactives up and if something happens, all I can do is to hope that target is killed before anyone in group is. Reactives work a bit like wards, they can heal if damage is less that what reactive heals but they acn also let damage through for every hit. Exeption is that at least <b>wardens heal lot better than templars do after those specialty spells</b>. <font color="#ff0000">For the first bold, I am well aware that the reactives are lacking (have posted it earlier.) No hits, no heals. It is really noticable on avoidance tanks. When they do finally get hit, Its big. With the recast times on our direct heals, the tank will fall. Our Direct Heals might look good on paper. But, in the game, they just dont measure up. I don't know how many times a group member has fallen because the recast timers were still going. Combat is to fast for the high timers that we have. I agree with what you had to say about HoT. Think I have posted it elsewhere as well, regens will tick away happily reguards of what is going on. Where reactives will not. If this is the way it is to be, fine. Then shorten our recast times on our direct heals.</font> Here is an example; someone in group gets aggro and takes huge damage before mt gets aggro back. Now what can a templar do? Target that someone and cast a direct heal with long cast time while mt gets pounded. What does a druid do? Cast a group HoT which heals mt and that someone alike. This is why people who get aggro in my groups die. Thing is that they dont die while grouping with a fury. <font color="#ff0000">I agree. If a caster grabs aggro, small direct heal, single target reactive (I always have group reactive going) is what I use and I hope the tank  can grab aggro back. I use the small heal because if I use the big direct heal, once the caster falls, I have aggro. That does not do my group any good.</font></span><hr></blockquote>Great post </span><span>Timaarit <span>:smileyhappy: Keep them comin </span></span><div></div>

[Mayl]

<span><blockquote><hr>Cowdenicus wrote:<p>Maylar </p> <p>Sure would like to know what are third single target Direct heal line is that is not on the same timer as the other 2. I aint found it yet, but i am only 57.</p> <div></div><hr></blockquote>That was my bad. it is in fact two. Had another small direct heal on my bar that, for some unknowen reason, I did not remove.</span><div></div>

[Stjarna Kvar]

Yeah! A sticky! Thanks Raj for giving us this functionality.Thanks Caethre for maintaining the thread.Now, lets show our gratitude by being civil with each other and actually suggesting things, not bashing other people's ideas. I'm sure the developers will provide pleanty of idea bashing time in the ready room when they are discussing the proposed fixes.

[KingOfF00LS]

Thanks for the sticky, Raijinn (hope I spelled it right).  This should help any devs who visit the forums to see people's comments and suggestions. I also want to lend my encouragement for the devs/designers to take another look at cleric direct heal recast timers.  The heals are already inefficient (not a problem...it's an obvious tradeoff, you sacrafice mana for healing you need right now) and that keeps people from chain casting them and not using the reactives.  So it would be nice to shave some time off the recast.  I very often have found myself sitting with greyed out heals waiting for something, anything, to refresh so I can recast it when going up against nameds or even many non-named encounters. <div></div>

[BenEm]

<P>Many thanks for the sticky !!!  Please look at the whole Aviodance vrs Mit issue it just kills that as a Temp in Heavy Armor I am not even close to being at my best !</P> <P>Other great idea's in this thread thanks for taking the time to look !! :smileyvery-happy:</P>

[Andalla]

<DIV> <DIV>Reposting this from a different thread because it was being drowned in a sea of flames:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Ok, so assuming your balancing issues must be fixed with changes to pre existing spell lines, i looked at a non specific templar spell list, and came up with a few possible solutions to your woes. i am an inquisitor, and am feeling the push a little as well, but i don't really think that priest problems are anywhere near as pronounced as many people on this board believe. maybe inquisitors are just better off; but i doubt it. i did, however, come up with a few changes to existing spells that could help balance your class a bit, and make it more desirable to group with. yeah, i'm not a templar, flame on, but at least i'm trying to make a change instead of simply slandering.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>the spells in their current form are listed, but i have added the proposed changes in bold:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>54- Divine Praetorate: An augmentation that increases the strength and wisdom of the templar's ally. <STRONG>This spell also grants the target a 10% chance to proc a damage and stun effect when struck (recommended amount: 200ish and a 2 second stun)</STRONG>.This spell does not require any concentration, but can only be maintained on a single ally.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Reason: Many templars have been calling for a personal only damage shield. this spell potentially offers an even better solution: it doesn't use up concentration, but it can only be maintained on one ally. So if the templar is soloing, he or she can utilize this spell personally, but when in a group it can be granted to a player who will benefit from it. SOE has granted garunteed damage shields to very few classes (fury, wizard, and inquisitor), but there are items available that have a % chance to proc a damage effect, so clearly they are not so averse to every class having such effects. The 10% chance to proc matches the inquisitor version of this spell, which instead drains power and returns it to the inquisitor. So maintaining a 10% proc chance keeps it in line with the other priest's comparable buff. Also considering how many times a templar is being hit per fight, this will grant a significant improvement to your dps, as well as a stun effect. If any spell is made to be changed, it is this one. increasing the amount of strength granted by this spell, and having the dps of Holy Redoubt increased will also help, and the change does not need to be great to see a decent improvement in kill speed.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>58- Symbol of Naltron: An augmentation that increases the Health pool of the Templar and allies and<STRONG> increases Armor Class.</STRONG></DIV> <DIV><STRONG></STRONG> </DIV> <DIV>Screw this "chance to increase armor class when struck" bs. Seriously, you need the ac when you're hit, and you need it to be something you can count on. All SOE is doing here is increasing the potential for damage spikes when a big hit comes and the increase in armor class doesn't happen. They are making templar lives more complicated by in effect increasing damage spikes, and thus cutting down on the reliability of your heals. Just make it a flat AC increase; templars get a way to decrease mitigation of their opponents, and inquisitors (the supposed "debuffing priests") get a spell that grants a flat AC increase, but templars don't? What happened to templars being the "defensive priests" if they don't even get a buff that garuntees an increase in defense?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>59- Judging Smite: Deals instant divine damage to target enemy and <STRONG>stuns them</STRONG>.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Seriously, the pacification idea is a terrible one. When is a mob a: not being actively attacked or b: dotted? It is nearly impossible to pull off any effect from this spell, even while soloing, unless you have carefully coordinated it, and even then there's a good chance of it being resisted. Plus, greater harmony already does this, so the effect is superfluous. Increase the damage of this spell (it's the highest level and best nuke you guys get, at least make it worthwhile), and give it a flat stun. It'll be a lot better for it.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Make these three changes, and templars will be taking less damage, and will have buffs that better impact the group they are in. They will also have received a moderate dps upgrade, and by simply scaling up a couple of the effects from other buffs (eg holy redoubt), templars will be a better balanced class, and still the best healers.</DIV></DIV>

[Kayle]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Andalla wrote:<BR> <DIV> <DIV>Reposting this from a different thread because it was being drowned in a sea of flames:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Ok, so assuming your balancing issues must be fixed with changes to pre existing spell lines, i looked at a non specific templar spell list, and came up with a few possible solutions to your woes. i am an inquisitor, and am feeling the push a little as well, but i don't really think that priest problems are anywhere near as pronounced as many people on this board believe. maybe inquisitors are just better off; but i doubt it. i did, however, come up with a few changes to existing spells that could help balance your class a bit, and make it more desirable to group with. yeah, i'm not a templar, flame on, but at least i'm trying to make a change instead of simply slandering.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>the spells in their current form are listed, but i have added the proposed changes in bold:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>54- Divine Praetorate: An augmentation that increases the strength and wisdom of the templar's ally. <STRONG>This spell also grants the target a 10% chance to proc a damage and stun effect when struck (recommended amount: 200ish and a 2 second stun)</STRONG>.This spell does not require any concentration, but can only be maintained on a single ally.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Reason: Many templars have been calling for a personal only damage shield. this spell potentially offers an even better solution: it doesn't use up concentration, but it can only be maintained on one ally. So if the templar is soloing, he or she can utilize this spell personally, but when in a group it can be granted to a player who will benefit from it. SOE has granted garunteed damage shields to very few classes (fury, wizard, and inquisitor), but there are items available that have a % chance to proc a damage effect, so clearly they are not so averse to every class having such effects. The 10% chance to proc matches the inquisitor version of this spell, which instead drains power and returns it to the inquisitor. So maintaining a 10% proc chance keeps it in line with the other priest's comparable buff. Also considering how many times a templar is being hit per fight, this will grant a significant improvement to your dps, as well as a stun effect. If any spell is made to be changed, it is this one. increasing the amount of strength granted by this spell, and having the dps of Holy Redoubt increased will also help, and the change does not need to be great to see a decent improvement in kill speed.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>58- Symbol of Naltron: An augmentation that increases the Health pool of the Templar and allies and<STRONG> increases Armor Class.</STRONG></DIV> <DIV><STRONG></STRONG> </DIV> <DIV>Screw this "chance to increase armor class when struck" bs. Seriously, you need the ac when you're hit, and you need it to be something you can count on. All SOE is doing here is increasing the potential for damage spikes when a big hit comes and the increase in armor class doesn't happen. They are making templar lives more complicated by in effect increasing damage spikes, and thus cutting down on the reliability of your heals. Just make it a flat AC increase; templars get a way to decrease mitigation of their opponents, and inquisitors (the supposed "debuffing priests") get a spell that grants a flat AC increase, but templars don't? What happened to templars being the "defensive priests" if they don't even get a buff that garuntees an increase in defense?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>59- Judging Smite: Deals instant divine damage to target enemy and <STRONG>stuns them</STRONG>.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Seriously, the pacification idea is a terrible one. When is a mob a: not being actively attacked or b: dotted? It is nearly impossible to pull off any effect from this spell, even while soloing, unless you have carefully coordinated it, and even then there's a good chance of it being resisted. Plus, greater harmony already does this, so the effect is superfluous. Increase the damage of this spell (it's the highest level and best nuke you guys get, at least make it worthwhile), and give it a flat stun. It'll be a lot better for it.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Make these three changes, and templars will be taking less damage, and will have buffs that better impact the group they are in. They will also have received a moderate dps upgrade, and by simply scaling up a couple of the effects from other buffs (eg holy redoubt), templars will be a better balanced class, and still the best healers.</DIV></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Adding to this:</P> <P>Avoidance also would need to be looked into.  When you have low avoidance you get hit more often.  It's a given that when you solo, you're going to get adds.  Templars can't level when they're running from the fight half of the time due to adds.</P> <P>Harmony is useless to solo with.  So, they exchanged the sign line for some weak temporary immobilization spell but even that is crap.  Sign should have been exchanged for a minute root spell, considering the time it takes to kill a mob anyway.  Repeat:  Consider the TIME it takes to kill one mob.</P> <P>Come on, devs, putting a root on the sign line wouldn't hurt anyone.  You have it on Templars in EQ1.  Is it really going to imbalance the game to put it on EQ2 Templars?</P> <DIV>I have more but I'll settle for one thing at a time.  Please look into avoidance and the ability to root and you can have the sign of debility back.  This would help solo'ing, groups and raid situations, so you're helping cover all of it with a few adjustments and additions to this issue.</DIV>

[zorbdan]

<DIV>Any improvements to buffs would be great. I like the previously posted ideas for improving buffs. A damage proc added to one of our buffs would be great.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Currently there is an issue with Glory of Combat competing with Redoubt. Both these buffs take 1 conc slot  and can be cast on as many people as you have concentration for. We basically have 3 slots for these 2 buffs to be cast on 6 people. It would take 12 concentration slots to cast these 2 spells on everyone in your group in addition to that we have 2 group buffs that take 1 slot, so the 2 group buffs leave us with 3 slots.Only 3 group members can recieve one of these buffs ?! I would like to be able to put redoubt on everyone and GoC on the melee classes but what ends up happening is no one gets redoubt it usually goes totally unused in place of GoC depending on how many melee classes you have in your group.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Maybe adding a damage shield/damage proc to the Redoubt line would give us something for solo/situational use and make it a worthwhile spell again to compete with the mighty GoC. </DIV>

[Topi]

<DIV>I was not trying to discribe a reactive, i was thinking a concentration slot spell  like a thorn spell but instead of doing damage to the target it heals the person it is on for a small amount of damage and it doesnt end after X amount of hits. and since when do we have 4 DHs?  i count 2 and one group</DIV><p>Message Edited by Topika on <span class=date_text>11-23-2005</span> <span class=time_text>09:49 AM</span>

[jpbaeten]

<font color="#ffff00">(2) Solo Capability / DPS </font>Would you guys like to bless your weapons?  Take out that vial of Holy Water to add a little extra divine damage.  I realize poisons have their drawbacks, cost being the big factor, but it would increase Cleric damage. <div></div>

[Mayl]

<div></div>Topika.... page 5... last post... **EDITED TO ADD** I found this idea kinda burried. Was posted by Blasted2hell in another thread, and I thought it was a pretty good idea. I am just going to post the idea, not the entire post "i see no reason why wisdom can't have a minor effect on giving healing bonuses.  Just making your spells a little more powerful in a small window.....basically I have an adept 3, but my wisdom is high enough that my adept 3 acts like a master 1.   or maybe even somewhere between the two.   So I wouldn't say it's unlikely to let wisdom affect the power of heals, I would say nobody has thought of a way to put it into effect in moderation." Thats not a bad idea. The only question I have, is how would this effect Master II spells? would those be concidered the "cap"? ie, no matter the wis bonus, you will not be able to heal better than a Master II Would like to see what others think on this. Its an option I have not seen (in this manner) before. If you have posted the same idea elsewhere, I am sorry that I have not seen it. I think this would effect all priest classes, not just cleics. <div></div><p>Message Edited by Maylar on <span class=date_text>11-24-2005</span> <span class=time_text>09:09 AM</span>

[Cowdenic]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Maylar wrote:<BR> Topika.... page 5... last post...<BR><BR>**EDITED TO ADD**<BR><BR>I found this idea kinda burried. Was posted by Blasted2hell in another thread, and I thought it was a pretty good idea. I am just going to post the idea, not the entire post<BR><BR>"i see no reason why wisdom can't have a minor effect on giving healing bonuses.  Just making your spells a little more powerful in a small window.....basically I have an adept 3, but my wisdom is high enough that my adept 3 acts like a master 1.   or maybe even somewhere between the two.   So I wouldn't say it's unlikely to let wisdom affect the power of heals, I would say nobody has thought of a way to put it into effect in moderation."<BR><BR>Thats not a bad idea. The only question I have, is how would this effect Master II spells? would those be concidered the "cap"? ie, no matter the wis bonus, you will not be able to heal better than a Master II<BR><BR>Would like to see what others think on this. Its an option I have not seen (in this manner) before. If you have posted the same idea elsewhere, I am sorry that I have not seen it. I think this would effect all priest classes, not just cleics.<BR> <P>Message Edited by Maylar on <SPAN class=date_text>11-24-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>09:09 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Devs have already stated that they would have to rework alot to allow healers to have wis affect healing and it will NOT happen.

[Takeo1]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Cowdenicus wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Maylar wrote:<BR> Topika.... page 5... last post...<BR><BR>**EDITED TO ADD**<BR><BR>I found this idea kinda burried. Was posted by Blasted2hell in another thread, and I thought it was a pretty good idea. I am just going to post the idea, not the entire post<BR><BR>"i see no reason why wisdom can't have a minor effect on giving healing bonuses.  Just making your spells a little more powerful in a small window.....basically I have an adept 3, but my wisdom is high enough that my adept 3 acts like a master 1.   or maybe even somewhere between the two.   So I wouldn't say it's unlikely to let wisdom affect the power of heals, I would say nobody has thought of a way to put it into effect in moderation."<BR><BR>Thats not a bad idea. The only question I have, is how would this effect Master II spells? would those be concidered the "cap"? ie, no matter the wis bonus, you will not be able to heal better than a Master II<BR><BR>Would like to see what others think on this. Its an option I have not seen (in this manner) before. If you have posted the same idea elsewhere, I am sorry that I have not seen it. I think this would effect all priest classes, not just cleics.<BR> <P>Message Edited by Maylar on <SPAN class=date_text>11-24-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>09:09 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Devs have already stated that they would have to rework alot to allow healers to have wis affect healing and it will NOT happen. <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Aye - thats a [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] solid idea by Blast. I am thinking they could make it a base % and run from there, no matter the spell level itself. If you are getting 10%, its a go of 10% on App2 or Ad3, no matter. Some issues may come up with the heals being a bit over-powered in single group, but they still dodge the C-Heal, the dreaded C-Heal. Maybe they could base the percentage on 50 points of Wis - 50wis/1%....but they would need it to work on ALL priests in their DH line only. I dunno, but of if you start bumping single/group RH/HoT/Ward by 10% we may be back to far in the trivial days of heroic combats, which in some ways I wouldnt mind see...</P> <P> </P> <P>Whatever happened to that nice O-buff we would get with our Combat Healing line? I liked throwing that at the tanker early...would like to see that back too...</P> <P> </P> <P>Lates.</P> <P> </P> <P> </P>

[Cowdenic]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Takeo101 wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Cowdenicus wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Maylar wrote:<BR> Topika.... page 5... last post...<BR><BR>**EDITED TO ADD**<BR><BR>I found this idea kinda burried. Was posted by Blasted2hell in another thread, and I thought it was a pretty good idea. I am just going to post the idea, not the entire post<BR><BR>"i see no reason why wisdom can't have a minor effect on giving healing bonuses.  Just making your spells a little more powerful in a small window.....basically I have an adept 3, but my wisdom is high enough that my adept 3 acts like a master 1.   or maybe even somewhere between the two.   So I wouldn't say it's unlikely to let wisdom affect the power of heals, I would say nobody has thought of a way to put it into effect in moderation."<BR><BR>Thats not a bad idea. The only question I have, is how would this effect Master II spells? would those be concidered the "cap"? ie, no matter the wis bonus, you will not be able to heal better than a Master II<BR><BR>Would like to see what others think on this. Its an option I have not seen (in this manner) before. If you have posted the same idea elsewhere, I am sorry that I have not seen it. I think this would effect all priest classes, not just cleics.<BR> <P>Message Edited by Maylar on <SPAN class=date_text>11-24-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>09:09 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Devs have already stated that they would have to rework alot to allow healers to have wis affect healing and it will NOT happen. <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Aye - thats a [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] solid idea by Blast. I am thinking they could make it a base % and run from there, no matter the spell level itself. If you are getting 10%, its a go of 10% on App2 or Ad3, no matter. Some issues may come up with the heals being a bit over-powered in single group, but they still dodge the C-Heal, the dreaded C-Heal. Maybe they could base the percentage on 50 points of Wis - 50wis/1%....but they would need it to work on ALL priests in their DH line only. I dunno, but of if you start bumping single/group RH/HoT/Ward by 10% we may be back to far in the trivial days of heroic combats, which in some ways I wouldnt mind see...</P> <P> </P> <P>Whatever happened to that nice O-buff we would get with our Combat Healing line? I liked throwing that at the tanker early...would like to see that back too...</P> <P> </P> <P>Lates.</P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>aye, it also helped a bit for soloing. Would be nice if we got some solid melee damage instead of having an artifically low str cap.

[Timaarit]

<span><blockquote><hr>Caethre wrote:<hr></blockquote>I must say that now your original post starts to be near perfect <span>:smileyhappy: I'm glad it is sticky</span></span><div></div>

[Big Da]

<P>Nice thread, well done!</P> <P>Also my pet gripe would be however little use the Sign line of spells has it is even further negated by the fact there is no maintained animation on the target. Nobody else can tell we have cast the spell on the mob and so will not think twice about attacking it and breaking the spell.</P> <P>I do use the spell now and again, it is useful solo to keep the mob from atatcking while you stack your debuffs but it just needs a little tweak.</P>

[Damaan]

I would like to see a yaulp type cleric spell.  Self only very quick cast (like .5 sec) short duration melee buff (maybe 20 sec) to help for solo or when no healing is needed in the group.  Have it give a good haste, some str, and a divine proc.  This way it would make cleric's the melee of the solo priests and it wouldnt add too much that would make them overpowered.

[Dalchar]

I had idea...if you don't mind a few suggestions from a fury I'm trying to be helpful and positive... I dunno if it might be possible (from a mechanic's point of view) for the pacify to be altered as such that it "removes from combat"(for lack of a word for it) instead... making the mob an unattackable, non-agro npc that doesn't take dmg from AOEs?  Kinda like the named final harpy in Scornfeather's Roost... doesn't become agro until certain conditions are met, maybe make in the templar's spell's case, the condition being met a duration of time... I think it'd likely make a hum-drum spell very viable. Course, if something like that could be implemented, it'd be a great thing for enchanters as well I imagine. Other ideas... Look at fae flames... castable every 20s, procs damage upon a melee hit to npc, up to 3 procs.  Perhaps changing one of the healing lottos to work as such to heal 3 times for X amount?  It'd provide a more steady controlable additional healing while removing some of the lotto factor.  Would provide lots of healing in a melee heavy setting. Going back to EQ1, the entire Mark lines aka "reverse damage shields" healed for tiny amounts, but based on how fast people hit, it really added up, especially raidwide.  If the EQ2 version worked similarly it'd help even out some AOE damage healing considering how fast scouts and some fighters hit for.  Maybe keep the current proc on it in additional bonus... if it'd be unbalancing for some situations where a scout is tanking (although I dunno that it would, I just know scouts hit really really fast) perhaps put a "-if target is fighter" requirement on the proc. Apologies if it's been suggested before, but it's easy to miss things in hundreds of posts scattered across 5 different threads. <div></div>

[Xerxess]

<DIV>you know instead of Wis effecting Healing...why not use our wisdom to effect our DPS?? I mean if mages main stat to increase is INT and there attack spells get a boost of it, well why can't all priest with their main stat is Wisdom to get a DPS boost off that?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> I dunno just a thought...</DIV>

[Dekedar]

<DIV>the reason ppl compare int to damage on mages so why not wis affect healing for us is because damage is a mages main reason for being, so int affects what they were made to do. We werent made to dps so our wis shouldn't affect that, it is ou rprimary attribiute and should affect what we were meant to do.</DIV>

[kenji]

<DIV>wis shouldnt increase our dps, but it should increase our heal...</DIV>

[Dalchar]

I could be wrong, but while I agree it'd be nice of WIS affected healing for all priests... my understanding for why WIS doesn't affect healing is more about keeping things stable, comparable, more easily balanced (harder for some priests to hit cap than others), and if you adjust how much everyone heals for to scale based on WIS, they'd have to go back and redo the dps output of most of the mobs in the game again.... but if you balance assuming capped wis you could hinder those classes whom have harder time with WIS, if you balance assuming less WIS, you could trivialize for those with higher WIS (we all know even a hundred more on a heal makes a huge difference).  That's just a vague memory... it makes some sense though.  But, player lives in groups depend less on dps than they do on steady heals, unhindered by: gear choice, shards missing, what buffs are available to someone, stat debuffs/rez effects, etc. <div></div>

[bigmak20]

**REMOVED DUE TO INAPPROPRIATE CONTENT**<p>Message Edited by Raijinn Thunderguard on <span class=date_text>11-28-2005</span> <span class=time_text>11:43 AM</span>

[quetzaqotl]

**REMOVED DUE TO INAPPROPRIATE CONTENT**<p>Message Edited by Raijinn Thunderguard on <span class=date_text>11-28-2005</span> <span class=time_text>11:45 AM</span>

[bigmak20]

**REMOVED DUE TO INAPPROPRIATE CONTENT**<p>Message Edited by Raijinn Thunderguard on <span class=date_text>11-28-2005</span> <span class=time_text>11:43 AM</span>

[quetzaqotl]

(Sorry Big but youre not important enough to start a thread about, and I didnt even insult you just calling you by what you are btw gj on derailing this thread, moving away for someone else to get it back unto track. <DIV>Btw Im not stalking you but when i see a post of you I cant resist as they are so full of angry bs most of the times and every post you make is you against furies heh I just think thats funny ah well.)</DIV><p>Message Edited by quetzaqotl on <span class=date_text>11-28-2005</span> <span class=time_text>07:59 AM</span>

[KingOfF00LS]

Someone please explain to me the difference in these three spells: Templar             <b>21</b>             <u>Sign of Weakness</u>             Places an impairment on the target that pacifies them, preventing them from making normal combat attacks. The pacify effect will break if the target receives any damage Templar            <b> 35</b>             <u>Sign of Debility</u>             Places an impairment on the target that pacifies them, preventing them from making normal combat attacks. The pacify effect will break if the target receives any damage Templar             <b>49</b>            <u> Sign of Infirmity</u>             Places an impairment on the target that pacifies them, preventing them from making normal combat attacks. The pacify effect will break if the target receives any damage <div></div>

[Sokolov]

Many spell lines do that, King. Theoritically, the higher level version hits higher level mobs with higher consistency.  But never tested it really myself. <div></div>

[Dalchar]

<div></div><span><blockquote><hr>bigmak2010 wrote:<span><blockquote><hr>Dalcharis wrote:I could be wrong, but while I agree it'd be nice of WIS affected healing for all priests... my understanding for why WIS doesn't affect healing is more about keeping things stable, comparable, more easily balanced (harder for some priests to hit cap than others), and if you adjust how much everyone heals for to scale based on WIS, they'd have to go back and redo the dps output of most of the mobs in the game again.... but if you balance assuming capped wis you could hinder those classes whom have harder time with WIS, if you balance assuming less WIS, you could trivialize for those with higher WIS (we all know even a hundred more on a heal makes a huge difference).  That's just a vague memory... it makes some sense though.  But, player lives in groups depend less on dps than they do on steady heals, unhindered by: gear choice, shards missing, what buffs are available to someone, stat debuffs/rez effects, etc. <div></div><hr></blockquote>Oh great -- they should rename this the "Fury 2" forum eh?  More furies posting in there then Templars.  I suspect because the Templars gave up. They should take away your Int buff and make it so Int doesn't buff your damage output Dalcharis. Yeah; how's that feel? Templars don't get Int buffs.  You do. Oh.. gee.. look... another reason why Furies are best.</span><div></div><hr></blockquote>Please, point me at some indication that this had anything to do with templars or furies, I was making a reference to ALL PRIESTS in general and my understanding on why WIS doesn't affect healing.  If it can be done I'm all for it, I even tried making some suggestions on things that may help.  Under no circumstances did this have anything to do with my class, or any other specifically. Edit: for reference to my primary point, from what I saw in spell line ups, Defilers and Inquisitors do not have wisdom buffs of any sort that I found.</span><div></div><p>Message Edited by Dalcharis on <span class=date_text>11-28-2005</span> <span class=time_text>08:29 AM</span>

[bigmak20]

Wisdom should matter with healing. It looks like you take a position against this because classes that buff Wis more then you may be able to heal slightly better.  There is -no- harm Wis allowing better healing unless you think Int should also not matter.  If one matters; the other should matter.  Int allows Int heavy classes to damage more and I see no one arguing against that.   In fact -- I see Furies constantly telling Templars to get more Int and the reason we can't deal damage like Furies is we have less Int.  Fine.  Let my Wis mean something then. What is healing if not the mirror image of damage dealing? It is intellectual bankrupt to argue Wis can't or shouldn't affect healing power while simultaneously thinking it's ok for Int to affect damage power.

[Sokolov]

Making wisdom affect heals is not a simple thing.  It would require rescaling of all encounters, particularly epic ones, as well as rescaling all priest heals.  It may also involve other classes that buff power and wis. <div></div>

[Dalchar]

<div></div><span><blockquote><hr>bigmak2010 wrote:Wisdom should matter with healing. It looks like you take a position against this because classes that buff Wis more then you may be able to heal slightly better.  There is -no- harm Wis allowing better healing unless you think Int should also not matter.  If one matters; the other should matter.  Int allows Int heavy classes to damage more and I see no one arguing against that.   In fact -- I see Furies constantly telling Templars to get more Int and the reason we can't deal damage like Furies is we have less Int.  Fine.  Let my Wis mean something then. What is healing if not the mirror image of damage dealing? It is intellectual bankrupt to argue Wis can't or shouldn't affect healing power while simultaneously thinking it's ok for Int to affect damage power. <hr></blockquote>I don't take a position against it, I was just saying why I think it didn't.  It had nothing to do with my class whatsoever or what I'd like to see or not to see.  In fact, I would like to see wisdom affect heals from a personal standpoint... as affecting resists is kinda lame <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />.  But looking at it a bit more objectively, I realized not everyone can buff WIS by large quantities (as they generally buff other things in large quantities).  The main concern with it is most likely, what the poster above myself just pointed out and what I meantioned earlier, encounter scaling, heal reworking,  trivialization or underpowering some encounters...esp for raiders... or overpowering some encounters for the non-raiders.  I wish I had the patience to go through the hundreds if not thousands of developer posts as I thought they mentioned a reason for wisdom not affecting healing. Never said it was right or wrong that it didn't affect healing, it'd be kinda neat and nice if it did.  But I can't believe they decided not to have it do so just arbitrarily, especially knowing lots would like to see wis affect healing.  So there's probably a reason behind it.... we just don't know it for sure.</span><div></div><p>Message Edited by Dalcharis on <span class=date_text>11-28-2005</span> <span class=time_text>10:17 AM</span>

[Cowdenic]

Get off the Wis affecting heals thing people. That WILL NOT happen, (although I wish it would with my unbuffed Wis at over 320). SoE stated it wont happen so we need to move on.

[thesilverf]

<P>Trying to get back on topic, and away from a rediculous Fury v Temp fight that should really be in PM's or another thread...</P> <P>Or AoE seriously needs to be looked at, specifically the recast time vs damage output.  The Damage is low and recast high.  With the interrupt situation, the 3 second cast time is too much to deal with.  </P> <P>Blaze of Faith at App IV.  A little over 300 damage to target encounter, with a 15 second recast?  This is a level 60 spell.  Why would we get an AoE upgrade at this point in our career anyhow?</P> <P>Basically I have rarely used this line, and don't plan on using it any time in the future.  </P> <P> </P>

[bigmak20]

<span><blockquote><hr>Dalcharis wrote:<div></div><span><blockquote><hr>bigmak2010 wrote:Wisdom should matter with healing. It looks like you take a position against this because classes that buff Wis more ....<hr></blockquote>I don't take a position against it, I was just saying why I think it didn't.  It had nothing to do with my class whatsoever or what I'd like to see or not to see.  In fact, I would like to see wisdom affect heals from a personal standpoint... as affecting resists is kinda lame <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />.  But looking at ... </span><hr></blockquote>Too many Furies in here telling us what to think about Templars so I'm reacting too quick.  Word to them: do what some of these desperate Templars have done and roll a Templar then you'll probably understand. I know Sony doesn't "plan" on having Wis affect healing at this moment -- but there is ample evidence they thought it should. Such as: The T6 Master 2 choice -- it's between the Praetorate upgrade (Wis Buff) and the Single Target reactive (Heal).  If Wis affected healing that would be a choice.  As it stands -- that isn't a choice.  The single target reactive is the only option. As to Lvl 60 Spell DD "upgrades".  The Lvl 60 App 2s deal less damage then my T5 Adept 1s.  That  should be fixed.  A spell 14 levels newer should out damage even a Master from the previous tier.  Master to App2 a tier apart should be close but the the new tier should be an upgrade no matter what. </span><div></div>

[Cowdenic]

<P>T4 DD spell</P> <P>You Damage target for 12 points, 24 if undead. </P> <P>At Adept 1 it is 13, and 26</P> <P>At Adept 3 it is 14 and 28</P> <P>At Master 1 it is 15 and 30</P> <P>T6 DD Spell </P> <P>You Damage target for 14 points 28 if Undead.</P> <P> </P> <P>While this is an exaggeration it is not too far off from the truth in scale. In Actuality I think our max DD goes up to 500 damage at 59 at adept 3.</P>

[Blast2hell]

<P>actually Wisdom affecting healing wouldn't require rescaling of the encounters if it's done in moderation.  Our heal spells can already scale up by purchasing upgrades....they could easily design it so that high wisdom values actually gives you the effect of the higher tier spell....the only people casting beyond the cap would be people with a Master 1 spell.   And in that case they could easily make it so the gains were minimal.  Thereby pushing the wisdom gains to spells you didn't have the Master 1 of yet.    </P> <P>Encounters are already scaled to the current power of spells in game......so this would kill the argument of having to redo encounters to handle increased healing ability.   </P>

[Dalchar]

That could work.  The hard part might be making it enough of a boost that anyone would feel it worthwhile... yet not overpowering, and putting a cap may be a hinder, as "why upgrade to master1 from adept 3 if I heal the same with 420 WIS?".. so you would still have to have the spell tiers themselves still matter. Another idea! I got excited on this one (I'm a geek, sue me)... how about Wisdom affecting the current minimum range on the heals if they don't want o "increase", set it so that wisdom will make you land in the upper end of the heal much more consistantly.... ie if your range was normally 1000-1350 on the heal... say at 420 WIS it'd be 1200-1350.  I'd take that too as a good alternative, better reliablity on your heals counting for more... it would thus actually make you heal for more in the end by eliminating huge variations and lowball heals... and at the same time, it wouldn't likely hinder any other priests for whom obtaining wisdom is more of a pain to obtain as well as the casual players w/o access to fabled gear with the high WIS. <div></div>

[Blast2hell]

<P>that's an excellent idea, increase the minimums, highly valuable.  And your right about the worthwhile issue, but right now, something is better then nothing.</P> <P>And the point of getting master 1,'s would be if you could score the right ones, you wouldn't need the wisdom, and could drop some wisdom gear for gear that increases other stats...in the templar case, you could swap into some tank fabled.</P> <P>so clearly,  the discussion on Wisdom affecting the power of your spells isn't something that should be closed to discussion.....with just a little brainstorming it's something that could be made useful.</P>

[KingOfF00LS]

<span><blockquote><hr>Sokolov wrote:Making wisdom affect heals is not a simple thing.  It would require rescaling of all encounters, particularly epic ones, as well as rescaling all priest heals.  It may also involve other classes that buff power and wis. <div></div><hr></blockquote>Not necessarily.  All of our heals seem to have a range they can fire in.  So why not make it so that the more wisdom you have the more likely you are to hit for higher in the already existing heal range.  That way you're not giving any more healing than the spell was designed for, but at the same time getting at least some kind of bonus for your wisdom. Say a given spell heals for 150-225. Templar A with low wisdom generally gets about 175 HP (on average) when casting this spell. Templar B with mediium wisdom generally gets about 190 HP (on average) when casting this spell. Templar C with maxxed out wisdom generally gets about 215 HP (on average) when casting this spell. So the bonus is in effect without going outside the already existing boundaries of the spell. </span><div></div>

[Melfius]

<P>My two cents:</P> <P>Just dinged 34 this morning.  Dinged two levels over the weekend, for a total of three this past week.  Pretty good, eh?</P> <P>Not when you consider just HOW I dinged: 1. Roamed around Sinking Sands (just bought Desert of Flames) to get the XP bonuses for discovering new areas. 2, and 3. Buying components to complete collections.</P> <P>I'll admit this was pretty lame.  However, in my own defense I just have to say that I am not adjusting well to my life as a sidekick, because that's what we're geared for, ain't it?</P> <P>Our soloing ability is abysmal. We have to buff ourselves heavily just to attack a single creature that is one level above ourselves.  Two levels and it's suicide.  We can take on a heroic mob only if it is about 8 levels below us, maybe 7 if we have the Smite for that creature type, and if it is alone.  Our healing is great, save for the Interrupts and Fizzles, which seem to come at the most inopportune times.  Our damage capability, whether through spells or physical might, is laughable (My current highest hits, at 34th level, are 507 for magical and 75 for physical).  I've even taken to avoiding the heavy armor I should, by all rights, be wearing, for the more useful Emerald Hide armor (and it looks cool, too!)</P> <P>So, here is the forum to suggest corrections?  Okay, here goes:</P> <P>If we are to be relegated to a sidekick, how about giving us our own MT?  Yes, I also request the Hammer Pet be returned.  Now, I've never played EQ1, and have no idea what it really is, but from what I've read here, it sounds like just the thing.  Kind of like a sidecar bringing it's own motercycle around to get things done.  It works for conjurers, doesn't it?  And, being Templars (Religious Knights), wouldn't those powers we follow want us to stay alive?</P> <P>Please, Oh Great and Powerful Devs of SOE, review our abilities.  Help us out!  Show us some love!</P> <P>Oh, and more versatility to Odyessy would be cool, too!</P> <P>EDIT - Spelling</P> <p>Message Edited by Melfius on <span class=date_text>11-29-2005</span> <span class=time_text>09:58 AM</span>

[bigmak20]

Add to Needed Fixes: Remaining heal power should fire at reactives expiration if it hasn't been used up.  Just like Wards to (and they heal for more then reactives.. /pfft).  This happens routinely with avoidance tanks and with slow hitting but heavy hitting raid mobs.

[SenorPhrog]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Melfius wrote:<BR> <P>My two cents:</P> <P>Just dinged 34 this morning.  Dinged two levels over the weekend, for a total of three this past week.  Pretty good, eh?</P> <P>Not when you consider just HOW I dinged: 1. Roamed around Sinking Sands (just bought Desert of Flames) to get the XP bonuses for discovering new areas. 2, and 3. Buying components to complete collections.</P> <P>I'll admit this was pretty lame.  However, in my own defense I just have to say that I am not adjusting well to my life as a sidekick, because that's what we're geared for, ain't it?</P> <P>Our soloing ability is abysmal. We have to buff ourselves heavily just to attack a single creature that is one level above ourselves.  Two levels and it's suicide.  We can take on a heroic mob only if it is about 8 levels below us, maybe 7 if we have the Smite for that creature type, and if it is alone.  Our healing is great, save for the Interrupts and Fizzles, which seem to come at the most inopportune times.  Our damage capability, whether through spells or physical might, is laughable (My current highest hits, at 34th level, are 507 for magical and 75 for physical).  I've even taken to avoiding the heavy armor I should, by all rights, be wearing, for the more useful Emerald Hide armor (and it looks cool, too!)</P> <P>So, here is the forum to suggest corrections?  Okay, here goes:</P> <P>If we are to be relegated to a sidekick, how about giving us our own MT?  Yes, I also request the Hammer Pet be returned.  Now, I've never played EQ1, and have no idea what it really is, but from what I've read here, it sounds like just the thing.  Kind of like a sidecar bringing it's own motercycle around to get things done.  It works for conjurers, doesn't it?  And, being Templars (Religious Knights), wouldn't those powers we follow want us to stay alive?</P> <P>Please, Oh Great and Powerful Devs of SOE, review our abilities.  Help us out!  Show us some love!</P> <P>Oh, and more versatility to Odyessy would be cool, too!</P> <P>EDIT - Spelling</P> <P>Message Edited by Melfius on <SPAN class=date_text>11-29-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>09:58 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>I'm not a sidekick thanks.   Without me, my group dies period.   The hammer pet has been brought up before and with my 2 cp I think thats too much of a mechanic change.  To use the arguement I've seen so many times here I'm a cleric.   I should be healing not playing a pet class.   The DPS complaint has been on the table for awhile and I've yet to see concensus on it.  Hopefully there will be a little more clear definition from the Devs on where we are supposed to be on it.

[Melfius]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Radar-X wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Melfius wrote:<BR> <P>My two cents:</P> <P>Just dinged 34 this morning.  Dinged two levels over the weekend, for a total of three this past week.  Pretty good, eh?</P> <P>Not when you consider just HOW I dinged: 1. Roamed around Sinking Sands (just bought Desert of Flames) to get the XP bonuses for discovering new areas. 2, and 3. Buying components to complete collections.</P> <P>I'll admit this was pretty lame.  However, in my own defense I just have to say that I am not adjusting well to my life as a sidekick, because that's what we're geared for, ain't it?</P> <P>Our soloing ability is abysmal. We have to buff ourselves heavily just to attack a single creature that is one level above ourselves.  Two levels and it's suicide.  We can take on a heroic mob only if it is about 8 levels below us, maybe 7 if we have the Smite for that creature type, and if it is alone.  Our healing is great, save for the Interrupts and Fizzles, which seem to come at the most inopportune times.  Our damage capability, whether through spells or physical might, is laughable (My current highest hits, at 34th level, are 507 for magical and 75 for physical).  I've even taken to avoiding the heavy armor I should, by all rights, be wearing, for the more useful Emerald Hide armor (and it looks cool, too!)</P> <P>So, here is the forum to suggest corrections?  Okay, here goes:</P> <P>If we are to be relegated to a sidekick, how about giving us our own MT?  Yes, I also request the Hammer Pet be returned.  Now, I've never played EQ1, and have no idea what it really is, but from what I've read here, it sounds like just the thing.  Kind of like a sidecar bringing it's own motercycle around to get things done.  It works for conjurers, doesn't it?  And, being Templars (Religious Knights), wouldn't those powers we follow want us to stay alive?</P> <P>Please, Oh Great and Powerful Devs of SOE, review our abilities.  Help us out!  Show us some love!</P> <P>Oh, and more versatility to Odyessy would be cool, too!</P> <P>EDIT - Spelling</P> <P>Message Edited by Melfius on <SPAN class=date_text>11-29-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>09:58 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>I'm not a sidekick thanks.   Without me, my group dies period.   The hammer pet has been brought up before and with my 2 cp I think thats too much of a mechanic change.  To use the arguement I've seen so many times here I'm a cleric.   I should be healing not playing a pet class.   The DPS complaint has been on the table for awhile and I've yet to see concensus on it.  Hopefully there will be a little more clear definition from the Devs on where we are supposed to be on it. <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>I'm not saying we're not an integral part of a group.  That's my point:  Outside of the group dynamic, we're slow to move up.  We're a poor solo class, and function at our best only when with someone else.  Hence-sidekick.  No intention to offend, just a cute term to describe the situation.</P> <P>I like grouping.  Gives one a sense of power to sit back and monitor everyone else's life signs and throw out a buff here, debuff there, heal the next guy.  Makes you feel like yer in control of the whole situation.  It's fun!</P> <P>But sometimes (and in my situation, alot of the time), you just can't devote alot of time to searching for and aiding a group.  RL gets in the way (not to mention my 8-month pregnant wife and 6-year-old daughter!) It's not fair to whomever I group with if I gotta just up and bolt at the drop of a hat because my wife has a craving, or my little girl needs her head removed from the stair bannister (not that this has happened....yet).</P> <P>I took up the mantle of Templar because it was suggested to me by the person who started me playing EQII.  But lately I find myself wishing I'd tried something else, more solo-able.  But, as I like my character, I don't want to start all over.  I've put too much time into him.</P> <P>I'm not asking to make Templars a totally self-sufficient class.  Just add an option to make them more viable as a solo class.</P> <p>Message Edited by Melfius on <span class=date_text>11-29-2005</span> <span class=time_text>10:41 AM</span>

[SenorPhrog]

<DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Melfius wrote:<BR> <BR> <P><BR>I'm not saying we're not an integral part of a group.  That's my point:  Outside of the group dynamic, we're slow to move up.  We're a poor solo class, and function at our best only when with someone else.  Hence-sidekick.  No intention to offend, just a cute term to describe the situation.</P> <P>I like grouping.  Gives one a sense of power to sit back and monitor everyone else's life signs and throw out a buff here, debuff there, heal the next guy.  Makes you feel like yer in control of the whole situation.  It's fun!</P> <P>But sometimes (and in my situation, alot of the time), you just can't devote alot of time to searching for and aiding a group.  RL gets in the way (not to mention my 8-month pregnant wife and 6-year-old daughter!) It's not fair to whomever I group with if I gotta just up and bolt at the drop of a hat because my wife has a craving, or my little girl needs her head removed from the stair bannister (not that this has happened....yet).</P> <P>I took up the mantle of Templar because it was suggested to me by the person who started me playing EQII.  But lately I find myself wishing I'd tried something else, more solo-able.  But, as I like my character, I don't want to start all over.  I've put too much time into him.</P> <P>I'm not asking to make Templars a totally self-sufficient class.  Just add an option to make them more viable as a solo class.</P> <P>Message Edited by Melfius on <SPAN class=date_text>11-29-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>10:41 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Oh I know what you are saying and I'm sorry if my initial response sounded hostile.  I know we aren't designed for solo work and haven't ever been since launch.  I agree with you completely, RL can get in the way (congratz on the new baby my wife is about 3 months along herself).  Vitality does help to a degree but....I don't know.   As a class its hard to champion DPS because I see us as a support role but at the same time I do understand where you are coming from.<BR></DIV>

[Melfius]

I also think it would help, if/when we get a Hammer Pet, that it be non-group only.  Keeps it out of groups, where you should focus on keeping other folks alive!

[bigmak20]

<span><blockquote><hr>Melfius wrote:I also think it would help, if/when we get a Hammer Pet, that it be non-group only.  Keeps it out of groups, where you should focus on keeping other folks alive! <div></div><hr></blockquote>.. becasue other priests get to lend a hand killing the target when their healing isn't needed.  Why should Templar's have less abilities then other priests that heal equally? </span><div></div>

[Melfius]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> bigmak2010 wrote:<BR><SPAN><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Melfius wrote:<BR>I also think it would help, if/when we get a Hammer Pet, that it be non-group only.  Keeps it out of groups, where you should focus on keeping other folks alive! <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>.. becasue other priests get to lend a hand killing the target when their healing isn't needed.  Why should Templar's have less abilities then other priests that heal equally?<BR><BR></SPAN> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>We can most certainly assist killing the target when our healing isn't needed.  As much as other classes?  No.  But I find myself feeling quite satisfied after every successful encounter.  If I have to rapid-fire heals, great!  But if I got bored waiting to heal something, well I pull out my trusty ol' staff and wade right in, occasionally chucking out a smite/strike HO combo (so long as no one else is using their own HOs), or just fill in the blanks on group HOs.  Either is great!</P> <P>I'm more focused on our lack of solo success.  Sure, we can solo.  So long as the opponent isn't more than a level higher than us.  Or if the heroic group is no more than 8 levels below us.  See my point?  It takes FOREVER for a Templar to progress left to their own devices.  I just want a situation where we can be equally successful within a group or on our own.  Adding a non-group pet just gives us the ability to bring our own group along!</P> <P>If I gotta hear one more joke at my expense about dying in Stormhold!  Arrrgh!  I can take on the armies Zek, but I die in Stormhold?!?</P> <P>It just boggles my mind to see someone, all on their own, taking down groups of creatures 3-4 levels above them without breaking a sweat, while I gotta slink around using a Spirit Totem of the Chameleon to save my skinny butt!</P> <P>So, yes, we are a major bonus to any group, and it is fun to boot.  But as for solo?  We're like walking chum buckets for any landshark with a stuffy nose to eat!</P>

[VentoCurat]

<P>If my templar had a significant damge shield I would play him a LOT more. It would be as suggested: self only, requires concentration. It  would of course need to proc a lot to be effective, say 50-80% and do damge in the neighborhood of 1/2 a mage nuke, but that would go in line with having zero avoidance from the heavy armor and not being able to do damge myself.</P> <P>Another good idea is some sort of Angelic form.</P> <P>Picute this:</P> <P>Cast a buff on yourself, you glow or something cool like that, and all your heal spells go read (you can't cast them while in angelic form). The buff gives you a significant (50-80%) increase in all forms of damge, or even just divine damge. This would be useless in groups unless you aren't the healer because you can't cast any heal spells. You can cancel it quick enough if you get into trouble, but a 30 seconds or so on the re-use would prevent it from getting out of hand. The specifics would require quite a bit of work on the test server......</P> <P>I would also like a big shield. Other priests get better dps with higher damage spells. If the defensive nature of the templar could be futher augmented for soloing by allowing maybe round and kite shields for better avoidance from possible agi bonus and the added block effect I think we could be better solo'ers. Also big shields wouldn't help in groups so wouldn't effect us there. Templars are tank clerics and they have the strength to use the heaviest of heavy armor, why not big shields?</P> <P>I stopped playing my templar (at 39) and now have a 58 warlock; this is mostly due to being frustrated with soloing.</P>

[Caethre]

<P>OOC.</P> <P>Updated with more new suggestions to here. There are some very creative ideas on this thread. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P><p>Message Edited by Caethre on <span class=date_text>11-30-2005</span> <span class=time_text>07:59 PM</span>

[Mew]

I think that the level 45 acolyte spell (currently just eye candy) could be converted to a serious pet.  Mystics get the summoned badger that runs around buffing group members.  Why can't the acolyte do something similar.  People have mentioned a pet hammer.  Why not have the acolyte do that job.  Let us control the acolyte like summoners can.Currently, I think that Templars are great to have on raids. My 2 direct heals are both Master II and I have an adept III reactive. Going against a single mob is no biggie but they really shine when the tank has multiple high dps mobs at one time to deal with.  But in small groups you need more diversity.  Templars don't have that.  I find that I can keep the small party alive just fine using 95% reactive heals with an occasional low power direct heal thrown in.  Only on the most wild and out of control pulls do I find myself even starting to worry about power.Whats with this buckler? At least give Templars access to round shields. Shorten the reuse timer on the Sign line of spells or make it AOE.I have used Odessey twice in the last 12 months.  Both times a complete stranger walks up out of the blue and says, "Can I get a punt?"   How about making a group version in additon to a single target spell.   Allow us to choose the destination zone instead of just gate to bind point.  Lose the material component.It would be nice if summoned Food and Drink would tier with the Templar's level.  <div></div>

[Topi]

<P>Ok i know this might have been said before ( i think i may even have ) but after leveling and playing more in DoF the thing i notice the most  as far as being a only healer in the group is timing.</P> <P>I mean you really have to plan ahead when healing. even with reactives up an blazing some of those tougher mobs hit for alot.</P> <P>I was in scornfeathers roost the other night and I was the only healer. I had to stay at max heal distance becuase some of the boss harpies stun and fear etc. So my group heal was kinda out of the picture. i would drop my group reactive on the pull, drop my single reactive. my tank would get hit and hit hard. I would have all my proc heals up , but then again they dont always work when you need them to.</P> <P>So i was relying on my 2 dhs greater amerloration ( spelling ) and greater restoration ( i was level 52 at the time ) and wow let me tell you, the times inbtween when the two timers were regening were  so stressfull. so much can happen in a couple seconds. and while my reactives are upgraded they alone could not handle the brunt of the major damage done while my DHs got ready.</P> <P>What I would love to see is another single target DH on a differnt timer. like a medium str one  in between amerolarion and restoration. Just one more heal on a differn timer would make up for so much</P> <P> </P> <P>Thanks:smileyhappy:</P> <P>Valora' Unrest</P>

[Melfius]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Mewse wrote:<BR>It would be nice if summoned Food and Drink would tier with the Templar's level.  <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>/agree</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>While I enjoy the fact that I have the Golden Acorn recipe (which is <EM>very</EM> nice!), being a Sage means I don't always get the pristine version (delectible).  And for those Templars that do not have this, alot of our cash gets wasted on food.  What makes it all the more maddening is that I get to look at that Summon Food & Drink icon and realize it is totally worthless.</DIV>

[bigmak20]

<span><blockquote><hr>Topika wrote:<p>Ok i know this might have been said before ( i think i may even have ) but after leveling and playing more in DoF the thing i notice the most  as far as being a only healer in the group is timing.</p> <p>I mean you really have to plan ahead when healing. even with reactives up an blazing some of those tougher mobs hit for alot.</p> <p>I was in scornfeathers roost the other night and I was the only healer. I had to stay at max heal distance becuase some of the boss harpies stun and fear etc. So my group heal was kinda out of the picture. i would drop my group reactive on the pull, drop my single reactive. my tank would get hit and hit hard. I would have all my proc heals up , but then again they dont always work when you need them to.</p> <p>So i was relying on my 2 dhs greater amerloration ( spelling ) and greater restoration ( i was level 52 at the time ) and wow let me tell you, the times inbtween when the two timers were regening were  so stressfull. so much can happen in a couple seconds. and while my reactives are upgraded they alone could not handle the brunt of the major damage done while my DHs got ready.</p> <p><font color="#ffff00">What I would love to see is another single target DH on a differnt timer. like a medium str one  in between amerolarion and restoration. Just one more heal on a differn timer would make up for so much</font></p> <p>Thanks:smileyhappy:</p> <p>Valora' Unrest</p> <div></div><hr></blockquote>I highlighted the yellow part.  People who are serious about playing a priest and playing it well know that (the highlighted part) to be a simple fact.  And yet when I and some others point out other priest have 2 additional direct heals on seperate timers one from L52 and another from L58 we get ridiculed by the "we're fine" crowd.  /shrug Request: Two more direct heals on seperate timers to balance healing among priests please. </span><div></div>

[Dalchar]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Mewse wrote:Whats with this buckler? At least give Templars access to round shields. <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>My personal guess, I could be wrong: </P> <P>While you don't traditionally use lighter armors as a cleric, nothing would prevent you from doing so.  Round shield is rather negligible if I remember right... (5%?) to avoidance.  And probably no significant problem... However some people have suggested Kite/Tower (+10-15% avoidance? I can't remember how much those grant) before.  So, what COULD happen, is Clerics would go to light or even very light armor... Which puts people somewhere around 22-30% avoidance depending on quality and what combination of LA//VLA... then you toss in a much higher shield factor if you use kite/tower, and you're potentially up at 30, 40 whatever + % avoidance nearly or at monk levels... significantly higher than the other mages/priests could attain... potentially creating a different balance issue.  </P> <P>Now, if there was some mechanism to prevent such an occurrance... It may work... something like a cap so that cleric avoidance w/ whatever shield doesn't excede full leather + buckler, or full VLA + buckler.  However, there's possibly a way to wear one or two peices of heavy pushing mitigation higher than druid/shamen can attain and wear...  then wear enough VLA to keep avoidance + big shield to keep superior levels... </P> <P>I fully agree though, it'd definately be nice to see priests able to use a wider variety of shields, even if they altered it so that the shield doesn't grant a higher shield factor than what your class would generally permit.... not sure if coding would permit something like that.  But there's lots of good shields out there, but not priest useable and have great priest stats.</P>

[Dalchar]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> bigmak2010 wrote:<BR><SPAN>I highlighted the yellow part.  People who are serious about playing a priest and playing it well know that (the highlighted part) to be a simple fact.  And yet when I and some others point out other priest have 2 additional direct heals on seperate timers one from L52 and another from L58 we get ridiculed by the "we're fine" crowd.  /shrug<BR><BR>Request: Two more direct heals on seperate timers to balance healing among priests please.<BR></SPAN> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>By the same token, the people whom think "we're fine" get ridiculed by the people whom swear a complete overhaul is necessary.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Some people want minor tweeks, some people want major alterations, no one's really right or wrong for their opinions... the only thing that's wrong is how people are addressing eachother and it's escalated to how things are now... lots of bitterness and general unpleasant words.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Henceforth!!! Everyone whom would normally put something generally unpleasant to express a disagreeing opinion should now use one of the smiley icons for that person and and nothing more!  It'd be funny at least... you'd see a heck of a lot of "Kendricke, Quez, Timarat, Bigmak, Cathere  :smileyhappy:" littered throughout the entire forum... at least it'd give the appearance of pleasant disagreement <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Another request: More detail on how the priests in general are expected to function would be greatly appreciated.  Healing differently and equally is well and good, but there's going to be lots of percieved imbalances that may be true or false, esp when you don't always know 100% how a class works.  A lot of screenshots with heal values and cast times doesn't tell anyone the entire story, for any of the various priest classes.  For example, Furies and Mystics each have heals on different timers than their normal heals, could you explain the reasoning behind this to the rest of the priest community to discuss how this may correlate to their own class and how they can better seek out the tweeks to their class that'd be appropriate.  What's good for one class may not necessarily be good for another.</DIV>

[Caethre]

<P>OOC.</P> <P>Updated again to here.</P> <P> </P>

[Unmask]

<span><blockquote><hr>Timaarit wrote: <span>Here is an example; someone in group gets aggro and takes huge damage before mt gets aggro back. Now what can a templar do? Target that someone and cast a direct heal with long cast time while mt gets pounded. What does a druid do? Cast a group HoT which heals mt and that someone alike. This is why people who get aggro in my groups die. Thing is that they dont die while grouping with a fury.</span><div></div><hr></blockquote>Group HoT is our longest cast spell.  And while we cast that the mt still gets pounded and gets slow healing afterwards.  If the mt is getting pounded why on earth do you want a hot that ticks once every 2 seconds?  Meanwhile, why didn't your group reactive heal the person who stole agro?</span><div></div>

[kenji]

<P>Group Reactive is 5 sec cast time. big Direct Heal is 3 sec cast time. Group Regen 3 sec...slow? /grin</P> <P>why on earth should Templar cost 5 sec to cast and only trigger 9 times but not 2 sec trigger 5 times? because they are Needed. so does Group Regen?</P> <P>i dont see the reason to say that Group Regen sux, since even it proc on 1 single person, the Ratio still pass direct heals...and the total amount healed also pass all direct heals... and very close to total of Group Ward..</P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P> </P>

[Dalchar]

If someone snagged huge agro amts, then mt got agro back... I'd be hitting group DH or DH on the person whom got agro.  The person is still high on the hate list, and the group regen takes time to work, I'd rather have everyone at full health asap and ready to go in the event that something else would go awry.  Group regen I tend to only cast when there's been an AOE or recovering from several mobs were agro had to be gotten under control, people just getting smacked all over, every group heal is tossed, but those cases are rather few and far between.  The group regen is the longest cast time of the spells we do have, and I generally find it unnecessay to spend the extra time and power it uses.  About the only time I really use it, is on a raid AOE, and only like.... 50% of raids seem to have one heavy enough.  I generally have to go looking for it on my hotbars since I use it that rarely. <div></div>

[Melfius]

I noticed last night that while in the Feerrott whenever the scout or MT would attack a mob, they would come after me!  Why is that?

[Elro]

<P>I wouldnt mind seeing the divine line come back from Eq1.  For thoose that wernt familar, it was invulnerability buff.  Yes invulnerability is nice, but is comes at a large price.  As soon as the 8 seconds or 12 seconds is gone, Guess whos back on top of the hate list.  This would probally be lower priority, but would be very helpful for raids.  Heres the deal, ya have a mob that has an initial punch of 7k to 8k and Auto attacks until debuffed for 2k.  That really doesnt leave you alot of room on your tank.  To keep him up off the get go you normally have to go all out reactives ( Normally I go , SVD , Group reactive, Single reactive, Ward Magic, Sanctuary, Reverence, and then FB ).  This is the most that I will put off on a pull, but in most cases for the large stuff its needed.  This will only really work with Rescue up and leaves your tank with a split second to remove you from the hate list.  While Harmony's are great for removing from the hate list, the divine line in really touchy situations would help as well.   Just a thought.  </P> <P> </P> <P>Elrohn</P> <P>60 Temp  Dissolution on Nek</P> <P> </P>

[Timaarit]

<span><blockquote><hr>Dalcharis wrote:If someone snagged huge agro amts, then mt got agro back... I'd be hitting group DH or DH on the person whom got agro.  The person is still high on the hate list, and the group regen takes time to work, I'd rather have everyone at full health asap and ready to go in the event that something else would go awry.  Group regen I tend to only cast when there's been an AOE or recovering from several mobs were agro had to be gotten under control, people just getting smacked all over, every group heal is tossed, but those cases are rather few and far between.  The group regen is the longest cast time of the spells we do have, and I generally find it unnecessay to spend the extra time and power it uses.  About the only time I really use it, is on a raid AOE, and only like.... 50% of raids seem to have one heavy enough.  I generally have to go looking for it on my hotbars since I use it that rarely. <div></div><hr></blockquote>Heh, if you think 3s is so long cast time that you dont want to use that heal, what do you think about 5 second cast time? That is right, it is the cast time for clerical group reactive. So which one is more useful again since it will not heal AOE's?</span><div></div>

[quetzaqotl]

<P>group regens are very nice against ae's one question tho group regen lasts 10 secs how long does a group reactive last if we are comparing cast times etc. would be useful info too.</P> <P>It's the whole arguement of healing after dmg is done against preventing dmg.</P> <P>Groupreactives have multiple uses they are mostly good when 1 target gets hit and quite good when theres gonna be an ae group regen is only good when theres an ae.</P> <P> </P> <p>Message Edited by quetzaqotl on <span class=date_text>12-03-2005</span> <span class=time_text>09:24 AM</span>

[Timaarit]

<span><blockquote><hr>quetzaqotl wrote:<div></div> <p>group regens are very nice against ae's one question tho group regen lasts 10 secs how long does a group reactive last if we are comparing cast times etc. would be useful info too.</p> <p>It's the whole arguement of healing after dmg is done against preventing dmg.</p> <p>Groupreactives have multiple uses they are mostly good when 1 target gets hit and quite good when theres gonna be an ae group regen is only good when theres an ae.</p> <p> </p> <div></div><p>Message Edited by quetzaqotl on <span class="date_text">12-03-2005</span> <span class="time_text">09:24 AM</span></p><hr></blockquote>Grpu preactive, cast time 5s, recast 15s, duration 30s. Heals for 9 procs.</span><div></div>

[Dalchar]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Timaarit wrote:<BR><SPAN>Heh, if you think 3s is so long cast time that you dont want to use that heal, what do you think about 5 second cast time? That is right, it is the cast time for clerical group reactive. So which one is more useful again since it will not heal AOE's?<BR></SPAN> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>It's not casted not just because of the cast time, but be matter of taking time to finish making a dent in the hp needing to be healed.  When it comes to small heals, I find I need to heal up as much as possible as fast as possible, there's no big beefy anything for me to say "whoosh" everyone's healed.  It's generally faster to hit group heal then a spot heal then resume on the tank.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Which is more useful depends on your situation.  AOEs are really few and far between except on raids, and many of them you can avoid or it doesn't have one.  In your everyday running amok for a couple hours doing instances, doing exp groups, and in raid w/o AOEs, I'd imagine group reactive would win out in general usefulness also in part to it able to act as a single target reactive w/o any penalty other than taking a while to cast (and I honestly don't understand why a 5s cast on that seems monsterous O_O but then my stuff is small).  In the event of an AOE, it'd fall short.  But that's my opinion, gameplay may vary.  Just as like with yourself we can read all the spell descriptions and know how everything looks like it's supposed to work but when you actually go out there and do it, it's often different than you expected.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>But, you do have bigger beefier group direct heals (1300+ish? I'm guessing) so that'd help out.  Course, in the event of an AOE, druids don't buff the hp enough to last long either (280 against a 1k AOE doesn't do much), and my group direct is like 750ish at ad3... so you really need shaman or cleric w/ good big group hp buff + druid w/ regen to counter AOEs in fabulous ways.</DIV>

[Narae]

<P>I've been a cleric class for about 6 years now, and do like the slight mix between what I've come to know as shamanistic abilities and cleric abilities. That said, I have three things I'd like to see for Templar that in my opinion would make substantial differences for us. As I state below, all three are not necessarily needed, as they all basically effect the same outcome.</P> <P>1. Move the class trait bonus granting Master2 that comes amid the racial bonuses from Arch healing to Amelioration and also move up the group spell one level. Having what I consider the newbie heals granted Master status at the level that it comes is more or less useless, while Amelioration etc are just a bit too small to be truly effective as you move into the mid 30s and beyond.</P> <P>2. Extend the Weaken line if you are not looking at changing any of the heals. Weaken is a fairly powerful tool, as it reduces the damage the mob will do, thereby lessening the NEED for bigger heals. If Templar had an increase in this line, we would be back in business and on far more equal footing healing wise as we climb the level ladder.</P> <P>3. I firmly believe that Wisdom SHOULD affect healing effectiveness, as Int affects damage spells. In lieu of #1 or #2, this change ALONE could make significant difference in our potency.</P> <P> </P>

[Timaarit]

<span><blockquote><hr>Dalcharis wrote:<div>But, you do have bigger beefier group direct heals (1300+ish? I'm guessing) so that'd help out.  Course, in the event of an AOE, druids don't buff the hp enough to last long either (280 against a 1k AOE doesn't do much), and my group direct is like 750ish at ad3... so you really need shaman or cleric w/ good big group hp buff + druid w/ regen to counter AOEs in fabulous ways.</div><hr></blockquote>No, we dont have that kind of group direct heal. So it wont help out.</span><div></div>

[MabortKilmodar]

<DIV> <P><SPAN><FONT color=#ffffff>I've read about half of this thread (including that nice history lesson on plate mail from medieval times), and skimmed the rest.  I'm pretty sure what I'm going to say hasn't been fleshed out like this yet.  And if it has, oh well....</FONT></SPAN></P> <P><SPAN><FONT color=#ffffff>Anyways, I think a HUGE problem with trying to adjust this class to be better fit into the game is that no one really has any clue what the hell a Templar or Inquisitor is.  There is, of course, the immediate answer, which is they are healers, one is good - the Templar - and one is evil - the Inquisitor.  If you tease a bit more, like, what do you mean by a healer?  Well then you can say that they are priests.  Well, how are T/I (Templars/Inquisitors) different from other priests?  Well, then you say that they gain their power from divine sources, where as the others gain their powers from nature and spiritual realms.</FONT></SPAN></P> <P><SPAN><FONT color=#ffffff>Ok, so we have that T/I are divinely ordained priests who's function is to be a healer (in general).  Excuse me for nitpicking for a second, but whom or what has divinely ordained them?<SPAN>  </SPAN>It was my understanding that the power came from the deities they worshipped.<SPAN>  </SPAN>If the gods have forsaken the mortals and removed their presence from mortal life, then were do these powers come from?<SPAN>  </SPAN>I’m not entirely sure, but Stormreach gives a good account for this here: </FONT><A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=lore&message.id=2715#M2715" target=_blank><FONT color=#ffffff>http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=lore&message.id=2715#M2715</FONT></A><FONT color=#ffffff>. <SPAN> </SPAN>That still does not make it the case, and I would prefer that SOE give an actual case for it.<SPAN>  </SPAN>I might be blind, meaning they have already officially answered this question somewhere, but I’ve just traversed their entire out of game resources on EQ2 history, as well as the History and Lore forum for some official information on the topic (and the best I could find is a compelling theory from another player – good theory – but still not official).<SPAN>  </SPAN></FONT></SPAN></P> <P><SPAN><FONT color=#ffffff>You might ask: Why the hell does it matter?<SPAN>  </SPAN>Well, if you don’t know where the power comes from, then how the hell can you know what it does?<SPAN>  </SPAN>The only thing we do know is that they still have power.<SPAN>  </SPAN>So, for starters, we should get an account for how this power is able to manifest itself.<SPAN>  </SPAN>For ease sake, we’ll just use Stormreach’s argument (follow the link if you want to know what it is).</FONT></SPAN></P> <P><SPAN><FONT color=#ffffff>The next important question is what is the dogma of T/I.<SPAN>  </SPAN>People had a pretty good idea of what the beliefs and motivations for Clerics, Druids, and Shamans were in EQ1.<SPAN>  </SPAN>However, that’s not quite the case in EQ2, especially when it comes to T/I.<SPAN>  </SPAN>Well, the developers say this:</FONT></SPAN></P> <P><SPAN><FONT color=#ffffff>Templars are faithful servants of the divine who use their benevolent powers to aid their fellow adventurers.<SPAN>  </SPAN>They mend the wounded and purge illness and suffering from the afflicted</FONT></SPAN></P> <P><SPAN><FONT color=#ffffff>Inquisitors are twisted fanatics who relentlessly advance the doctrines of their religions and accept no compromise in their beliefs.<SPAN>  </SPAN>Skilled healers, they minister to the body while seizing control of the soul.</FONT></SPAN></P> <P><SPAN><FONT color=#ffffff>So a Templar is a good person, and an Inquisitor is an evil person.<SPAN>  </SPAN>Other than describing something to me about their character, what does that tell me about their beliefs, the structure of their religion, the means of how they reach their goals?<SPAN>  </SPAN>Are they both really just that simple?<SPAN>  </SPAN>It seems to me that these labels of Templar and Inquisitor are pointing more to a type of person, not describing a follower of some religious sect.<SPAN>  </SPAN>Is this reduction of the beliefs of the faithful of Norrath adequate enough to give a fair account of the abilities, practices, and rituals that these pious citizens would devote their lives to?<SPAN>  </SPAN>I would argue no.<SPAN>  </SPAN>However, this is just a game, and there is only so much budget and time.<SPAN>  </SPAN>And even other game systems, such as Dungeons and Dragons, give rise to a common set of skills and abilities that even the most ubiquitous set of priests can call upon to get a job done.<SPAN>  </SPAN>But it is usually the case that there is still some sort of difference in the manifestation of these abilities, and the exact use of them as well, along with some forbidden techniques and unique ones to boot.</FONT></SPAN></P> <P><SPAN><FONT color=#ffffff>The point that I’m trying to make is that this conception that the development team has come up with for T/I seems to be a bit over simplified.<SPAN>  </SPAN>It probably is a bit late to do something about that, though.<SPAN>  </SPAN>But I just want people to see that part of the problem of T/I abilities stems from this over simplification.<SPAN>  </SPAN>This also leads to another problem.<SPAN>  </SPAN>That is looking at ability and skill development strictly in terms of game mechanics and systematics.<SPAN>  </SPAN>I think it was most likely developed mainly in these terms because of a lack of development in the design of the concepts of what the priests are in Norrath.<SPAN>  </SPAN>That is not to say that you don’t look at game mechanics when designing a class, to do so would simply be ludicrous, and would probably produce a severely unbalanced class.<SPAN>  </SPAN>But doing it almost strictly in these terms nearly castrates your creativity abilities.<SPAN>  </SPAN>I’ve been in the development seat before, and I know what happens when you start creating abilities just based on the numerical aspects of the game.<SPAN>  </SPAN>They lack depth, meaning, and, usually, creativity – that is to say that it usually just mimics something else already present in the game (cookie cutter) with minor changes to make it feel a bit more unique.<SPAN>  </SPAN>I think this really detracts from a game.<SPAN>  </SPAN>I’m not trying to point the blame stick at anyone.<SPAN>  </SPAN>While someone did actually make it like that, I understand that this is the prevailing game design paradigm in the market today.<SPAN>  </SPAN>Chalk it up to the corporatization of the gaming industry, but that is a discussion for another time.<SPAN>  </SPAN>Paradigm shifts are always hard to initialize, but I think, particularly for the MMO market, that a shift from the cookie cutter paradigm needs to happen.</FONT></SPAN></P> <P><SPAN><FONT color=#ffffff>Getting back on topic, I think we now have a lucid view of the fundamental problem at hand.<SPAN>  </SPAN>We just don’t know what a Templar or an Inquisitor is.<SPAN>  </SPAN>Is it possible to give a good answer to this question this late in the development of the game?<SPAN>  </SPAN>I don’t know.<SPAN>  </SPAN>Does it really matter?<SPAN>  </SPAN>Well it does to me, regardless of other people’s opinions.<SPAN>  </SPAN>But my opinion is not the final word on anything.<SPAN>  </SPAN>We have to work together, players and developers alike, to develop the most entertaining, engaging, and enjoyable environment possible.<SPAN>  </SPAN>And, I believe it is quite clear that there is a high level of animosity from the player community towards how the development of this aspect of the game is unfolding.<SPAN>  </SPAN>I think at least an acknowledgement from the developers to the community of this disparity is in order, along with some kind of statement of overall goals for T/I.</FONT></SPAN></P> <P><SPAN><FONT color=#ffffff>The community has played just as much a part of the problem though, and I think it is time that they started working towards a much loftier goal.<SPAN>  </SPAN>I’m not saying that the changes proposed in this thread are without merit, but I do think that they are a bit short-sighted.<SPAN>  </SPAN>But again, we have the paradigm in which we all think in, and that is the primary resource in which we use to develop our ideas.<SPAN>  </SPAN>I want to propose that the community itself take up the goal in which I put forth to the developers as well; aside from coming up with just standard cookie cutter ideas, really look into how you view the priests of Norrath.<SPAN>  </SPAN>There is so much more to be explored in terms of rich development of these classes, and I think everyone that has some vested interest could participate and contribute.<SPAN>  </SPAN>I don’t want to throw out any ideas as of yet, to make sure I don’t bias the direction of the paradigm shift I’m trying to instigate, but think of things like who is your priest?<SPAN>  </SPAN>What do you believe the motivations are to your priest?<SPAN>  </SPAN>What sort of beliefs do you think your priest has devoted their life to?<SPAN>  </SPAN>I could go on and on, but the point is to try to think of your priest in role playing terms.<SPAN>  </SPAN>Even if you’re not a role player, I’m sure you have some creative juices and have most likely been influenced by some role playing aspect – besides, you decided to play a priest, that, in and of itself, is an aspect of role playing.<SPAN>  </SPAN>In this process, let these ideas and thoughts mold your ideas on skills and abilities.<SPAN>  </SPAN>You might just be surprised what you come up with.</FONT></SPAN></P> <P><SPAN><FONT color=#ffffff>Another thing, while this is Everquest 2, don’t be afraid to let your ideas be influenced by other games.<SPAN>  </SPAN>It is not sacrilegious to take ideas from other games.<SPAN>  </SPAN>That can always be a critical tool.<SPAN>  </SPAN>But try to make sure that it is an influence, and not out right stealing the idea.<SPAN>  </SPAN>Also, try to keep in the realm of using ideas that are not currently found in EQ2 (that would still be cookie cuttering it up).</FONT></SPAN></P> <P><SPAN><FONT color=#ffffff>You know, I never expected to write this much.<SPAN>  </SPAN>I’ve ended up neglecting my Environmental Philosophy paper.<SPAN>  </SPAN>But I think this was worth it.<SPAN>  </SPAN>If you don’t find any substance or quality to my thoughts and ideas, well, hey, I can’t please everyone.<SPAN>  </SPAN>If you do, though, I hope it has given you some insight as to how to participate in developing a better game (at least in my opinion).<SPAN>  </SPAN>Oh yeah, if you’re wondering, that was a very brief and surface scratching phenomenological and deconstructivist approach to looking at this problem.<SPAN>  </SPAN></FONT></SPAN></P> <P><FONT color=#ffffff><SPAN>I hope we can keep this dialogue alive in a productive manner that will benefit us all in the long run.<SPAN>  </SPAN>That’s it from me.<SPAN>  </SPAN>Thanks for your time. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>

[Bad_Mojo]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Caethre wrote:<BR> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00>(1) Interrupts</FONT>.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Templars are reporting a considerable increase in the number interrupts since LU13. This affects us most when soloing, or in small groups. This is particularly noticeable when facing encounters with multiple creatures, with soloable groups of 3 or 4 creatures all with multiple down-arrows. Other classes have similar issues, but the very low avoidance of Templars due to wearing plate and yet having none of the avoidance-increasing options available to other plate classes, means that plate is seeming to be a handicap more than a help under many circumstances. This causing some Templars undue problems.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Suggestions:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>- reduce the capability of down-arrow mobs to cause interrupts to plate-armoured characters,</DIV> <DIV>- reduce the capability of down-arrow mobs / multiple-mob encounters to cause interrupts per se</DIV> <DIV>- mitigation could affect the chance to be interrupted, eg 50% mitigiation = 50% chance to resist an interrupt.</DIV> <DIV>- small base increase in avoidance chance and/or return of parry skill.</DIV> <DIV>- ability to use more shield types</DIV> <DIV>- single target avoidance buff (or selfbuff) to reduce this issue</DIV> <DIV>- some other buff or ability to reduce excessive interrupts</DIV> <DIV>- Fizzles remain too high on beneficial spells (not just a Templar issue)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I see a common misconception regarding plate and interrupts fairly often, so I thought I'd drop this in here to show that much of what is being asked for here is already in the game (though whether or not it's "working as intended" may be an issue).  It may have already been mentioned in this thread, but since I still see the plate = more interrupts argument being used...</P> <P>Here the link to the combat changes that went live with LU13:</P> <P><A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=combat&message.id=75568#M75568" target=_blank>http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=combat&message.id=75568#M75568</A></P> <P>Here is the part that cites mitigation as helping vs. interrupts (italic/underline done by me for emphasis):</P> <P><SPAN><STRONG><FONT color=#ffff00>Resists, Fizzles, and Interrupts</FONT></STRONG></SPAN></P> <UL> <LI><SPAN>Spell casters now make use of a skill called Focus. It is raised by casting spells while being attacked.</SPAN></LI> <LI><SPAN>Your chance to be interrupted while casting is now determined by your Focus skill and <EM><U>the amount of damage being done by your attacker</U></EM>.</SPAN></LI></UL> <P>Since Mitigation = less damage done, mitigation also then inherently reduces the chance of an interrupt when hit.  So the suggestion above about mitigation affecting interrupt chance is redundant, it's already there.  Could it use a tweak? maybe.</P> <P> </P> <P>Here's some of the mitigation part of the notes:</P> <P> </P> <P><STRONG><FONT color=#ffff00>Mitigation</FONT></STRONG></P> <UL> <LI>The base mitigation values of armor against an opponent of your level have been adjusted as follows: Heavy (32%), Medium (26%), Light (20%), Very Light (10%).</LI> <LI><EM><U>Mitigation scales up or down based on the con color of your attacker.</U></EM> That is, you mitigate progressively more damage of blue, green, and grey opponents, and progressively less against yellow, orange, and red opponents.</LI> <LI>Mitigation is now shown as a numerical value instead of a percentage. The percentage is visible by mousing over the mitigation value on the Persona window.</LI> <LI><EM><U>Spell and item effects can now have a greater effect on your physical mitigation</U></EM>. You can mitigate a maximum of 80% of any physical damage type. This cap is higher against opponents that con grey.</LI> <LI><EM><U>Armor quality (Handcrafted, Treasured, Legendary, Fabled, or Mythical) has a greater impact on mitigation</U></EM> values than it did before.</LI></UL> <P><BR>Avoidance for a priest isn't affected overly much by AGI buffs (the only buff that does <EM>anything</EM> for avoidance).  However, mitigation is affected positively by armor quality and increased mitigation buffs (which I believe Templars are fairly decent at).  In the long run, I'd hazard a guess and say that mitigation priests in quality gear and full buffs are probably no more susceptible to interrupts as an avoidance priest, and in fact (given our limited ability to increase avoidance) mayhaps even better off than leather wearers.</P> <P> </P> <P>Just wanted to put this out there since it seems many have not seen the combat changes notes, and it appears some of the suggestions outlined are already implemented.  I also wanted to mention that all priest classes are complaining about interrupts, and I feel it is far more a Focus issue as opposed to a leather/chain/plate one.</P>

[Caethre]

<P>OOC.</P> <P>With respect, sir, there was nothing in that submission I had not already read, as I imagine you would know, though it does not harm to put it here again. However, in your statement "it is already implemented", exactly what "it" is, is not clear. If you mean, that the notes as you posted, are already implemented, then yes, I am sure they are. If you mean, that what I (and the rest of the community who have posted on the same thing) are asking for is "already implemented", then that is not the same thing, and it most certainly is not. You see, what we are asking for is over and above whatever is already in game, as what is already in, however it is rationalized, is clearly not enough for most of us.</P> <P>Why? Let me give you two examples.</P> <P>Felishanna at 53 pulled a group of four blue con court-of-coin guards in Maj Dul a few of weeks ago, to solo for faction tokens. They were all vv and vvv. She was interrupted in the fight a total of nineteen times. The fight lasted several minutes. She is in FULL cobalt armour, with very high mitigation, just over 3100. It felt like an embarassment, it took so long. Yes, that was the worst example, but it was very common to get over ten interrupts per fight.</P> <P>Yesterday, Annaelisa at 48 pulled the same group, which was yellow con to her. She is dressed in handcrafted leather, mitigation just under 1400. Her AE nuke pull half killed the group on its own, one of the group was dead about 5 seconds later. She was interrupted a total of four times (and that was an unlucky fight for her). The whole encounter was dead long before Felishanna had managed it. This is despite being FIVE LEVELS LOWER and dressed in (by comparison) rags.</P> <P>This is by no means an isolated case, it is a typical one. The interrupts issue makes the insanely long Templar fights even more insanely long. I will agree that interrupts are also a problem for other priests, and that lengthening a battle for non-plate wearing priests will hurt them more, but right now, the emphasis is far too far the other way.</P> <P>"Balanced"? I think not.</P> <P>"Working as intended"? I hope not!</P> <P> </P> <P>Felishanna [53 Templar]<BR>Annaelisa [49 Fury]</P><p>Message Edited by Caethre on <span class=date_text>12-04-2005</span> <span class=time_text>06:04 PM</span>

[Bad_Mojo]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Caethre wrote:<BR> <P>OOC.</P> <P>With respect, sir, there was nothing in that submission I had not already read, as I imagine you would know, though it does not harm to put it here again. However, in your statement "it is already implemented", exactly what "it" is, is not clear. If you mean, that the notes as you posted, are already implemented, then yes, I am sure they are. If you mean, that what I (and the rest of the community who have posted on the same thing) are asking for is "already implemented", then that is not the same thing, and it most certainly is not. You see, what we are asking for is over and above whatever is already in game, as what is already in, however it is rationalized, is clearly not enough for most of us.</P> <P><FONT color=#ccff00>What I meant was that these points:</FONT></P> <DIV>- reduce the capability of down-arrow mobs to cause interrupts to plate-armoured characters,</DIV> <DIV>- reduce the capability of down-arrow mobs / multiple-mob encounters to cause interrupts per se</DIV> <DIV>- mitigation could affect the chance to be interrupted, eg 50% mitigiation = 50% chance to resist an interrupt.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ccff00>Are already implemented.  Read the combat changes and you will see that mitigation does decrease the chance of interrupts.  Weaker opponents have a lesser chance of causing an interrupt as well, as they will be dealing with increased mitigation just for the fact that they are weaker.  I also said perhaps it could use more tweaking.</FONT></DIV> <P>Why? Let me give you two examples.</P> <P>Felishanna at 53 pulled a group of four blue con court-of-coin guards in Maj Dul a few of weeks ago, to solo for faction tokens. They were all vv and vvv. She was interrupted in the fight a total of nineteen times. The fight lasted several minutes. She is in FULL cobalt armour, with very high mitigation, just over 3100. It felt like an embarassment, it took so long. Yes, that was the worst example, but it was very common to get over ten interrupts per fight.</P> <P>Yesterday, Annaelisa at 48 pulled the same group, which was yellow con to her. She is dressed in handcrafted leather, mitigation just under 1400. Her AE nuke pull half killed the group on its own, one of the group was dead about 5 seconds later. She was interrupted a total of four times (and that was an unlucky fight for her). The whole encounter was dead long before Felishanna had managed it. This is despite being FIVE LEVELS LOWER and dressed in (by comparison) rags.</P> <P>This is by no means an isolated case, it is a typical one. </P> <P><FONT color=#ccff00>I wouldn't say that was typical.  I've died to a solo encounter of three blues.  I got one spell off (the one I pulled with) and spend the rest of the fight getting interrupted and occasionally stunned.  Sounds like you had luck on your side, and your Templar didn't.  I myself have been beaten into the dirt by guard groups, thanks to interrupts.</FONT></P> <P>The interrupts issue makes the insanely long Templar fights even more insanely long. I will agree that interrupts are also a problem for other priests, and that lengthening a battle for non-plate wearing priests will hurt them more, but right now, the emphasis is far too far the other way.</P> <P>"Balanced"? I think not.  <FONT color=#ccff00>You'll notice I never said it was. :shrug:</FONT></P> <P>"Working as intended"? I hope not!  <FONT color=#ccff00>You'll notice I never said I thought it was. :shrug:</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ccff00>What I *did* say was that maybe the mitigation effect on interrupts might need tweaking, do you disagree?</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ccff00>Another thing I *did* say was that Focus could probably be made more useful, do you disagree?</FONT></P> <P> </P> <P>Felishanna [53 Templar]<BR>Annaelisa [49 Fury]</P> <P>Message Edited by Caethre on <SPAN class=date_text>12-04-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>06:04 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>

[kenji]

<DIV>Dalcharis,  our T6 group heal does 83x-103x. there is no 2nd group heal.</DIV> <DIV>avoiding AoE in raid...lets say run 2 times per mins, 5 sec less attacking time. a group of 1.5k dps missing 15000 dmg per min. group regen can cover 15000 dmg...good isnt it? (my daily grp brigand doing 500-800 dps alone most fight...so i assume 1500 per grp isnt much...if too much then drop the dps count yourself)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>actually instead of 500 hp group buff, fury's got 60ish hp regen....which in aoe situation even help more on recovering hp... but sure...if cant take that shot it's meaningless... but hardly seen an AoE can kill ppl with 1 shot...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>although some other fury claim that Hibernation isnt good, need to guess what happens after 10 sec... but u can still use grp heal, grp regen to cover that 10 sec... but as a templar...the 5 sec u need to guess is casting GRH...if any big spike come, templar cant land anything...and big heal after that is 3 sec cast time...good luck!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Dalchar]

<DIV>Word of Atonement spell line is a group direct heal that I was talking about when I glance at the spell lists.  Every priest has a group specialty and group direct that I know of... starting at like level 15.  I was thinking of that as the second group heal, not that there's two direct group heals.  Haha and I guessed mine wrong, it's 588-718 at ad3.  So 830ish to 1030ish is beefier, not quite what I expected though.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The regen on Ferine Mask is like, 65 at M1... I think it ticks once every 6s.  While it's not meaningless, it's basically a small counter to no hp.  What good is incombat regen going to do if you didn't have the hp to regen?  I've seen a DOT kill mages in 2 ticks, sometimes 3.  If I'm casting the group cure, that dot has a good chance of a second or third tick sometimes.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Hibernation is really only good in the event of TIMED AOEs in my personal experience.  Waiting 10s to heal your group is generally just asking for trouble... what happens is your regen may or may not tick enough in time, depending on size of AOE it may or may not cover it, so the standard group heal (the 588-718 one) is blasted.  Generally, my group is healed before it goes off and was a waste of power, as while it was all ticking I tend to toss out directs if the MT is safe.  Now if and only if I know that AOE is coming, does that group heal prove anywhere near effective... provided they're counting right... or didn't announce too late, you almost require teamspeak to utilize it LOL.  So Hibernation really, while it's there, just doesn't seem to fill any needed role except for precast before porcupine.  I think that's why it's generally regarded as not so great.  I want my team healed and healed now, not hoping they hang on 10s.</DIV>

[kenji]

<DIV>heh, it's easy to counter AoE with Hib</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>get your AoE announcer say, 'AoE inc in 5 sec', cast your Hibernation, wait for aoe hit, cast your group heal, and Hib will proc after your group heal land. guess what? u healed your group 2k hp in 10 sec. and u got Group Regen left? lol</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Templar? AoE inc in 10 sec, Cast GRH, block 350 dmg with 3 hits left nothing to do (incase you arent MT healer), cast Group heal, heal 1k, see... a templar can only heal 1400 hp in 10 sec. and there's no more group heal function.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>oops...forgot the love of GoC, hey where's my magic dice? i need my group heal proc now!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>i am glad that Fury can cover up both Single Target and Group Target heal. but definitely not my templar, i may keep Plate MT up better than fury, but not even half close to Group Target Healing.<BR><BR>note that, the ratio on Hibernation is 5.57 ratio Per Person, while Templar Group Heal is 3.09 ratio Per Person. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Balance.</DIV><p>Message Edited by kenjiso on <span class=date_text>12-04-2005</span> <span class=time_text>09:44 PM</span>

[Dalchar]

<div></div><span><blockquote><hr>kenjiso wrote:<div>heh, it's easy to counter AoE with Hib</div><div> </div><div>get your AoE announcer say, 'AoE inc in 5 sec', cast your Hibernation, wait for aoe hit, cast your group heal, and Hib will proc after your group heal land. guess what? u healed your group 2k hp in 10 sec. and u got Group Regen left? lol</div> <div><b>i am glad that Fury can cover up both Single Target and Group Target heal</b>. but definitely not my templar, i may keep Plate MT up better than fury, but not even half close to Group Target Healing.</div>Message Edited by kenjiso on <span class="date_text">12-04-2005</span><span class="time_text">09:44 PM</span><hr></blockquote></span><hr>I Wrote previously:<div> </div><div><b>Hibernation is really only good in the event of TIMED AOEs in my personal experience</b>.  Waiting 10s to heal your group is generally just asking for trouble... what happens is your regen may or may not tick enough in time, depending on size of AOE it may or may not cover it, so the standard group heal (the 588-718 one) is blasted.  Generally, my group is healed before it goes off and was a waste of power, as while it was all ticking I tend to toss out directs if the MT is safe.<span></span><b>Now if and only if I know that AOE is coming, does that group heal prove anywhere near effective... provided they're counting right... or didn't announce too late, you almost require teamspeak to utilize it LOL.</b>  So Hibernation really, while it's there, just doesn't seem to fill any needed role except for precast before porcupine.  I think that's why it's generally regarded as not so great.  I want my team healed and healed now, not hoping they hang on 10s.</div><hr> Um... what'd I hide? You just described a timed AOE which... I had already made reference to.  While it's all well and good to have people announce AOEs, people are human, and sometimes caught up in the moment and may make a mistake, miscount, announce too late, or you may be busy casting something else entirely (trying to get the MT up from less than 50% or something).  Like I said if you're using teamspeak, and if people manage to make the announcements, and provided someone's not being blocked out by someone else saying something in teamspeak...  yes it can be effective.  But, in my personal experience, that's about the only time it's ever really proven effective.  Sometimes it works great, most times, was a waste of power (I find myself prefering to use heals I know that will count and do so immediately, rather  than burning over 200 power on a group heal that might only heal everyone for 100 since I utilized the other two group heals).  Nor have I ever ignored BITF, but just tried to guess why it may be in place based on how furies work, as to me it seems rather astronomically unlikely that it's placed on a separate timer w/o a reason.  What that reason is, we can only guess and try and extrapolate from what we do know and how things work, there's more to mechanics and gameplay than just spell descriptions.<span></span><div></div>

[kenji]

find a way to heal 2000 group hp in 10 sec for a templar.<BR> <DIV>cast grp heal, then pray for lotto heal can do it. maybe.</DIV> <DIV>find a way to heal 2000 group hp in 10 sec for a warden / fury.</DIV> <DIV>cast group regen, cast grp heal, done.<BR></DIV>

[quetzaqotl]

<P>OMG yes druids could have an advantage in healing groups from an ae, hmmm move on?</P> <P>Why is everyone tripping over this, outside of raids noone needs to be able to heal the group for 2k in 10 secs.</P> <P>Btw as a fury I couldnt heal 2k in 10 secs I would need like (nrs are off did at the back of my had)  casting hib. 3 secs+ 10 secs for hibernation to kick in 3 secs casting group regen: 3 ticks= 6 secs to heal for like 1 k so add it up 3+10+3+6= 22 seconds.</P> <P>I could cast my group direct heal which is about 700 heal while a templars is over 1k I think eh 1300-ish or something? </P> <P> </P>

[Nari]

<P>**REMOVED DUE TO INAPPROPRIATE CONTENT**</FONT></P><p>Message Edited by Raijinn Thunderguard on <span class=date_text>12-06-2005</span> <span class=time_text>10:41 AM</span>

[Timaarit]

<P>**REMOVED DUE TO INAPPROPRIATE CONTENT**</FONT></P><p>Message Edited by Raijinn Thunderguard on <span class=date_text>12-06-2005</span> <span class=time_text>10:41 AM</span>

[kenji]

so lack of imagination as a fury, way to heal 2k in 10 sec?<BR>cast grp regen, 3th sec instant, 5th, 7th, 9th. 4 ticks for a total of 1334 ((300+367)/2 x 4)<BR> <DIV>cast group heal 653 (588-71<img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />/2)<BR>buff AC with group regen for ok, 1 tick, 62 grp regen (Ferine Mask - Increases in-combat health regen Per-tick of Group member(AE) by 62. )<BR>a total of 2049 heal , in 9th sec<BR><BR>is thats why Fury doesnt Think Hibernation useful? is that they are just freaking uber? Mr. Furygod?<BR>if your math is right, i assume Hibernation is a Self Stun till the effect end and heal. am i right? 22 sec, dont get me laugh.<BR>/ooc lack of sleep?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>o btw, the Spell Data i copy mainly from Your Own Post. except the group heal adept 3, yours is Master 1, i afraid i use it will get flamed. link below.<BR><A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=17&message.id=9363" target=_blank>http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=17&message.id=9363</A><BR><BR>thanks for your time.<BR><BR>[edit] having too much fun, forgot another part of your post. yes, Templar can heal over 1k with casting 1 group heal, here is the adept 3 number, Heals group member (AE) for 847-<U><STRONG>1036</STRONG></U> .<BR><BR>if a Fury lacking of single target heal SoE given extra uber single target direct heal, why isnt Templar weaken in Group Heal given another 1? instead, we have given a spell that hurt whole grp 20% hp for sharing HP.<BR><BR>Balance.</DIV><p>Message Edited by kenjiso on <span class=date_text>12-06-2005</span> <span class=time_text>04:59 PM</span>

[Dalchar]

<DIV>Kenj, that's pretty much exactly why I don't consider it that useful.  If I can pump out that much hp in 10s to a group, as we clearly do on top of having quick single target direct heals, there's little need for hibernation at all in about 80% of occassions that you'd think to ever cast it.  Sadly I'd consider it more useful if it had a 15-20s wait before the heal went off.  That way it can be used in conjunction with porcupine and be what I consider useful.  That's why when hibernation's gone off I usually think-- great! I spent over 200 power for topping off a mage's 150 hp from manastone and the tank by 300! <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>About the only time I ever really try and use it is when the group is just well below standard for the mob we're going to try and undertake and just doing anything at all to keep people alive, regardless of waste... generally it doesn't work too well <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV>

[kenji]

<DIV>due to the overpower of group regen, the hibernation spell isnt consider to be useful at all.<BR>best comment i have seen. <BR></DIV>

[kenji]

u know what will happen if it's 20 sec length ?<BR> <DIV>cast grp regen, 3th sec instant, 5th, 7th, 9th, 11th, 13th. 6 ticks for a total of 2001 ((300+367)/2 x 6)<BR> <DIV>cast group heal, 6th sec,  18th, 1306 (588-71<img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />/2 x2)<BR>cast Hibernation , 7th sec , proc at 17th,1242.5 ((1118+1367)/2)<BR>buff AC with group regen 3 tick, 186 grp regen<BR>a 4735.5 heal in 20 sec each member. <BR><BR>talked abt Single Target healing balance, where is the Group Healing banace?<BR><BR>SoE only look Healer balance as Single Target healing? no DPS, no Utility, no Grp Heal?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>as more deeply i thought these days, the more Unfair changes to Templar since LU13 . Hah</DIV></DIV>

[Bad_Mojo]

<DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> kenjiso wrote:<BR> <DIV>due to the overpower of group regen, the hibernation spell isnt consider to be useful at all.<BR>best comment i have seen. <BR></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Due to group regens only really being useful after an AoE attack (or to top off someone that happened to gain aggro for a hit or two without changing your target from the MT), what good are they in 90%+ of most battles?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>best comment i have seen.</DIV>

[kenji]

<P>Group Regen on single person Still better than Direct Heal ratio, unless u think direct heal is completely useless.<BR><BR>or unless u mean Warden direct heal the worst. the 2nd tick of group regen > small direct heal + 2 sec tick.</P> <P> </P> <P>Indeed, Group Regen is only really being <U>OVERPOWER</U> after an AoE attack , and always useful on stable dmg and use with Manastone, Mage/pet HP>Power, using of Conj/Necro HP > Power items.</P> <P>overpower or not? 288 power healing 12006 hp, it's not only being useful at This situation, it's freaking overpower</P><p>Message Edited by kenjiso on <span class=date_text>12-06-2005</span> <span class=time_text>10:35 PM</span>

[Unmask]

Heh like group regens actually ever heal anywhere near that much.    In 5% of the situations group regen > gruop reactive but 95% of the time group reactive is more powerful and mostly it is far more powerful because it actually keeps the MT alive.  A 350 hp per 2 second tick doesn't keep anyone alive if they have agro.  Stop looking at spells on paper and think about how when they are actually used.<div></div>

[Timaarit]

<span><blockquote><hr>Bad_Mojo wrote: <div><blockquote> <hr> kenjiso wrote: <div>due to the overpower of group regen, the hibernation spell isnt consider to be useful at all.best comment i have seen. </div> <hr> </blockquote>Due to group regens only really being useful after an AoE attack (or to top off someone that happened to gain aggro for a hit or two without changing your target from the MT), what good are they in 90%+ of most battles?</div> <div> </div> <div>best comment i have seen.</div><hr></blockquote>Consider this: Group reactive has 5s cast and 15s recast. At <b><i>optimal</i></b> situation it can proc 27 times in a minute. Group regeneration will tick <i><b>in any case for</b></i> that same 27 times on a single target. In effect, they will heal exactly the same amount if the situation is optimal for the group reactive. So group regeneration is at its worst as good as group reactive is at its best. So if you dont want to use group regeneration, why the hell does anyone think templars would like to cast group reactive? Ah, I forgot, you have even better spells to heal. Well, templars dont. best comment i have seen. </span><div></div>

[kenji]

<DIV>A 350 hp per 2 second tick doesn't keep anyone alive, 9 hits of 350 hp per trigger in 20 sec doesnt keep anyone alive.</DIV>

[kenji]

<P>to OP,any chance to add to Templar wishlist :</P> <P>Wis should affect the amount of heal range. even not the max number, the min number should raised.<BR><BR>e.g 500-600 heal with 200 wis, 550-600 with 300 or so</P>

[Caethre]

<P>OOC.</P> <P>Updated to here.</P>

[Bad_Mojo]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> kenjiso wrote:<BR> <P>Group Regen on single person Still better than Direct Heal ratio, unless u think direct heal is completely useless.<BR><BR>or unless u mean Warden direct heal the worst. the 2nd tick of group regen > small direct heal + 2 sec tick.</P> <P> </P> <P>Indeed, Group Regen is only really being <U>OVERPOWER</U> after an AoE attack , and always useful on stable dmg and use with Manastone, Mage/pet HP>Power, using of Conj/Necro HP > Power items.</P> <P>overpower or not? 288 power healing 12006 hp, it's not only being useful at This situation, it's freaking overpower</P> <P>Message Edited by kenjiso on <SPAN class=date_text>12-06-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>10:35 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>You do realize that group regen doesn't stack the 'unused' portion on the single damaged guy right?  Let's say the MT has taken 900 damage, and everyone else is full health... Now you are looking at 288 power for 900 points of SLOW healing.  Overpowered? hardly.  Situational and useful in cases of AoE to heal without switching targets? Sure thing.  In order of use off my hotbar, direct heals get spammed constantly, I try to keep a single target regen up if I have time between the spamming... Group regens rarely get used.

[kenji]

<P>if the tank taken 900 dmg and stop taking anymore. yes the heal is wasted.<BR>it happens as the tank taken 900 dmg and avoided all the hits after casting (such as avoidance tank, and Stuns), so whole GRH is wasted.<BR>if the tank is taking less than 350 dmg per hit, the extra heal is wasted, assuming u cast it at 100% of MT hp.<BR><BR>if the mob is stunned, GRH isnt proc`ing at all. while Regen still 2 sec per tick.<BR>if the mob is slowed, GRH will also proc slower, due to the mob slowed and dont hit as fast. while Regen still 2 sec per tick.</P> <P>GRH best 95% of the time, hardly.<BR><BR></P>

[Bad_Mojo]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> kenjiso wrote:<BR> <P>if the tank taken 900 dmg and stop taking anymore. yes the heal is wasted.<BR>it happens as the tank taken 900 dmg and avoided all the hits after casting (such as avoidance tank, and Stuns), so whole GRH is wasted.<BR>if the tank is taking less than 350 dmg per hit, the extra heal is wasted, assuming u cast it at 100% of MT hp.<BR><BR>if the mob is stunned, GRH isnt proc`ing at all. while Regen still 2 sec per tick.<BR>if the mob is slowed, GRH will also proc slower, due to the mob slowed and dont hit as fast. while Regen still 2 sec per tick.</P> <P>GRH best 95% of the time, hardly.<BR><BR></P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>I never said it was better 95% of the time.  In fact, it sounds as if it's just as situational as group regens.  Do you have to rely on direct heals to keep a tank alive? I'm guessing yes, and so do I.  Your GRH doesn't actually 'heal', and my regens heal too slowly.  :shrug:</DIV>

[Timaarit]

<span><blockquote>Bad_Mojo wrote: <div>I never said it was better 95% of the time.  In fact, it sounds as if it's just as situational as group regens.  Do you have to rely on direct heals to keep a tank alive? I'm guessing yes, and so do I.  Your GRH doesn't actually 'heal', and my regens heal too slowly.  :shrug:</div><hr></blockquote>Reactives are far more situational that HoT's. HoT's will heal the amount stated on it in the time given. With reactives everything depends on how fast and how hard someone is hit. Sometimes a single target reactive is totally wasted when some mob hits a close to full health MT with 5 autoattack hits just before it hits that target for 1k with a single hit. HoT's that were cast at the same time, will heal that 1k while reactives will not.</span><div></div>

[Bad_Mojo]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Timaarit wrote:<BR><SPAN> <BLOCKQUOTE>Bad_Mojo wrote:<BR><BR> <DIV>I never said it was better 95% of the time.  In fact, it sounds as if it's just as situational as group regens.  Do you have to rely on direct heals to keep a tank alive? I'm guessing yes, and so do I.  Your GRH doesn't actually 'heal', and my regens heal too slowly.  :shrug:</DIV> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Reactives are far more situational that HoT's. HoT's will heal the amount stated on it in the time given. With reactives everything depends on how fast and how hard someone is hit. Sometimes a single target reactive is totally wasted when some mob hits a close to full health MT with 5 autoattack hits just before it hits that target for 1k with a single hit. HoT's that were cast at the same time, will heal that 1k while reactives will not.<BR></SPAN> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>True, but in that same scenario I'd be mashing direct heals during that 5 auto attack/1000 point hit... But it sounds as if you need to hit directs after the barrage (ie. Doh! reactive dropped, direct heal, direct heal as opposed to regen taking a little of the bite off, direct heal, direct heal).  I can see where both are limited, and I can see where both have perks.  Regens heal, reactives prevent damage... Regens are slow, reactives are instantaneous.  There are pros and cons to each I think.

[Timaarit]

<span><blockquote>Bad_Mojo wrote:True, but in that same scenario I'd be mashing direct heals during that 5 auto attack/1000 point hit... But it sounds as if you need to hit directs after the barrage (ie. Doh! reactive dropped, direct heal, direct heal as opposed to regen taking a little of the bite off, direct heal, direct heal).  I can see where both are limited, and I can see where both have perks.  Regens heal, reactives prevent damage... Regens are slow, reactives are instantaneous.  There are pros and cons to each I think. <div></div><hr></blockquote>Yes there are. But as it is, HoT's are given compensation for their cons, clerics have gotten none. And note that this is especially true after lvl 58 when druids can heal with direct heals about 40% more than clerics. Yes, templars have biggest heals, but other priests can still heal at least the same or more per time unit. Someone complained that group HoT has so 'long' (= 3 seconds) cast time that it is not worth casting. Heh, group reactive has 5 second cast time. Templars are slow healers, on paper we even have the biggest heals. Even on paper we do not however heal the most (or prevent damage) over a longer than 15 second time period.</span><div></div>

[quetzaqotl]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> kenjiso wrote:<BR> <STRONG>so lack of imagination as a fury, way to heal 2k in 10 sec?</STRONG><BR>cast grp regen, 3th sec instant, 5th, 7th, 9th. 4 ticks for a total of 1334 ((300+367)/2 x 4)<BR> <DIV>cast group heal 653 (588-71<img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />/2)<BR>buff AC with group regen for ok, 1 tick, 62 grp regen (Ferine Mask - Increases in-combat health regen Per-tick of Group member(AE) by 62. )<BR>a total of 2049 heal , in 9th sec<BR><BR>is thats why Fury doesnt Think Hibernation useful? is that they are just freaking uber? Mr. Furygod?<BR>if your math is right, i assume Hibernation is a Self Stun till the effect end and heal. am i right? 22 sec, dont get me laugh.<BR>/ooc lack of sleep?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>o btw, the Spell Data i copy mainly from Your Own Post. except the group heal adept 3, yours is Master 1, i afraid i use it will get flamed. link below.<BR><A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=17&message.id=9363" target=_blank>http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=17&message.id=9363</A><BR><BR>thanks for your time.<BR><BR>[edit] having too much fun, forgot another part of your post. yes, Templar can heal over 1k with casting 1 group heal, here is the adept 3 number, Heals group member (AE) for 847-<U><STRONG>1036</STRONG></U> .<BR><BR>if a Fury lacking of single target heal SoE given extra uber single target direct heal, why isnt Templar weaken in Group Heal given another 1? instead, we have given a spell that hurt whole grp 20% hp for sharing HP.<BR><BR>Balance.</DIV> <P>Message Edited by kenjiso on <SPAN class=date_text>12-06-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>04:59 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>The lack of imagination is all yours kenji I just did the math with the spells YOU yourself provided of course could I heal for more in that timeframe but you went and said I could heal 2k in 10 secs with only hibernation and group regen am I not correct?</P> <P><BR> </P>

[Unmask]

<div></div><hr>Timmarit wrote:<span>Yes there are. But as it is, HoT's are given compensation for their cons, clerics have gotten none. And note that this is especially true after lvl 58 when druids can heal with direct heals about 40% more than clerics. Yes, templars have biggest heals, but other priests can still heal at least the same or more per time unit.</span><hr>What compensation are you referring to?  And what happened at level 58 that allows my direct heals to be 40% better than a cleric's?  I get a tree that dies when the mob sneezes.

[quetzaqotl]

<P>no hes referring to furies Im sure we get hibernation which on paper could heal a lot well if you can predict an ae 10 secs in advance which hits you groups for 1k+ (which never happens outside of raids and i thought everyone here agreed that raids are just 1% of the game not that I agree btw im a hardcore raider) thats our lvl 58 spell (which big refers to as a furies' 4th direct heal on a seperate timer btw Big you said furies have 2 extra heals over templars thats should be 1 as we dont have a spell like FB/HG and even that one is situationally used).</P> <P>Adding up numbers w/o real live in game experience is hollow as for instance Ill never have to use bitf (or maybe once if its a very big challenging encounter) in a normal group if I go full out spamming heals.</P> <P>And thats the main prob imo (again) theres not enough challenging content, some groups dont even need a healer (on the xp grind), or only as a "backup patcher," and thats not where a templar will shine or maybe they would if they chain pull as kendricke said could be...</P><p>Message Edited by quetzaqotl on <span class=date_text>12-07-2005</span> <span class=time_text>07:05 AM</span>

[Timaarit]

<span><blockquote><hr>quetzaqotl wrote:<div></div> <div></div> <p>no hes referring to furies Im sure we get hibernation which on paper could heal a lot well if you can predict an ae 10 secs in advance which hits you groups for 1k+ (which never happens outside of raids and i thought everyone here agreed that raids are just 1% of the game not that I agree btw im a hardcore raider) thats our lvl 58 spell (which big refers to as a furies' 4th direct heal on a seperate timer btw Big you said furies have 2 extra heals over templars thats should be 1 as we dont have a spell like FB/HG and even that one is situationally used).</p> <p>Adding up numbers w/o real live in game experience is hollow as for instance Ill never have to use bitf (or maybe once if its a very big challenging encounter) in a normal group if I go full out spamming heals.</p> <div></div> <p>And thats the main prob imo (again) theres not enough challenging content, some groups dont even need a healer (on the xp grind), or only as a "backup patcher," and thats not where a templar will shine or maybe they would if they chain pull as kendricke said could be...</p><p>Message Edited by quetzaqotl on <span class="date_text">12-07-2005</span> <span class="time_text">07:05 AM</span></p><hr></blockquote>Yes yes, Hibernation is useless to a fury since you use HoT to heal that damage. Here is the news: Templars DO NOT HAVE anything to compare with neither group HoT nor Hibernation. Would you like to trade Reverence to Hibernation? Or to BitF? I know that as a templar I would. I might even trade Divine arbitration for either one and furies at least could heal the group from damage it causes.</span><div></div>

[quetzaqotl]

<DIV>furies dont have anything to compare to your group reactive omg another single target reactive for the mt in disguise.</DIV> <DIV>Group reactives OWN group regens in you usual group experience.</DIV> <DIV>Omg if you dont agree we disagree! [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] can you imagine that?</DIV> <DIV>Tim you and I will never ever agree on this.</DIV><p>Message Edited by quetzaqotl on <span class=date_text>12-07-2005</span> <span class=time_text>07:18 AM</span>

[Timaarit]

<SPAN> <BLOCKQUOTE>quetzaqotl wrote:<BR> <DIV>furies dont have anything to compare to your group reactive omg another single target reactive for the mt in disguise.</DIV> <DIV>Group reactives OWN group regens in you usual group experience.</DIV> <DIV>Omg if you dont agree we disagree! [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] can you imagine that?</DIV> <DIV>Tim you and I will never ever agree on this.</DIV> <P>Message Edited by quetzaqotl on <SPAN class=date_text>12-07-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>07:18 AM</SPAN><BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>**REMOVED INAPPROPRIATE COMMENTS**<BR><BR>Group regeneration is better even with single target than group reactive. Within one minute period, group HoT heals for 27 ticks no matter what while group reactive will heal up to 27 times (no more) only if target is hit for 27 times while this spell is up (5s cast, 15 recast means it will be up for 40s each minute, this means target needs to be hit about once per 1,8 seconds).<BR><BR>So group HoT owns group reactive. Unless that special condition applies. But you are free to disagree if you really dont understand what you read.<BR></SPAN> <p>Message Edited by Raijinn Thunderguard on <span class=date_text>12-07-2005</span> <span class=time_text>10:51 AM</span>

[quetzaqotl]

<DIV>Fateful Intercession Master 1 group reactive, heals 367-419 up to 9x, cast 5sec/recast 15sec duration 30sec <BR></DIV> <DIV>Owls grace heals adept 3 group for 300-367 insta and every 2 seconds 6x on single, cast 3 sec /recast 12 sec duration 10 seconds (pwr cost 28<img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>In 1 minute I can cast this spell 4 times (4x 3sec+10+2sec=60 secs) (duration is 10 secs recast is 12 seconds so that leaves out 2 seconds of no group heal)</DIV> <DIV>In 1 minute templars cast fateful intercess 3 times (3x15+5 seconds)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>on single target per minute  that is:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>owls: 333.5 (avg)x6= 2001   2001x4= 8004 per minute single target</DIV> <DIV>fateful: 393 (avg)x9=  3537   3537x3= 10611 per minute single target</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And yes thats of course if the tank gets hit often but then again if the tank is near full health a group regen is wasted while the reactive waits on a hit also I dont what the power cost diff is between these spells but I can see when the mt takes slow hvy dmg the regen moves in more, but thats the nature of regens.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV><p>Message Edited by quetzaqotl on <span class=date_text>12-07-2005</span> <span class=time_text>08:19 AM</span>

[Mayl]

<span><blockquote><hr>quetzaqotl wrote:<div>Fateful Intercession <b>Master 1</b> group reactive, heals 367-419 up to 9x, cast 5sec/recast 15sec duration 30sec </div> <div>Owls grace heals <b>adept 3</b> group for 300-367 insta and every 2 seconds 6x on single, cast 3 sec /recast 12 sec duration 10 seconds</div> <div> <font color="#ff0000"> You just compaired a Master I to an Adept III. Try again please. </font></div> <div> </div> <div>In 1 minute I can cast this spell 4 times (4x 3sec+10+2sec=60 secs) (duration is 10 secs recast is 12 seconds so that leaves out 2 seconds of no group heal)</div> <div>In 1 minute templars cast fateful intercess 3 times (3x15+5 seconds)</div> <div> </div> <div>on single target per minute  that is:</div> <div> </div> <div>owls: 333.5 (avg)x6= 2001   2001x4= 8004 per minute single target</div> <div>fateful: 393 (avg)x9=  3537   3537x3= 10611 per minute single target</div> <div> </div> <div> <font color="#ff0000">These numbers are not valid until the spells are compaired on the same footing. </font></div><hr></blockquote></span><div></div>

[bigmak20]

You're distorting the number a bit in your favor comparing a Master to an Adept 3 but I think the point was the person being healed has to get hit that much for the reactive heals to trigger.  That only happens in extreme cases such as fast hitting raid MoBs.  So the vast majority of the time the HoT is a better healing tool against a single target.  /shrug I don't have a problem with either of those myself.  Both heals have their place and I think it's a bit silly to argue which is better overall when comparing our core healing.  IMO that is one thing SOE got about right  assuming their premise all healers are to be about the same with respect to their core healing abilties. As you all know I take issue with lotto utility heals we get and additional direct heals some classes get as ancient scrolls -- that destroys the balance supposedly introduced by LU13.  DPS in a 30 second fight is also a big problem (sadly) if we are all to be equal healers then we all need equal secondary and tertiary abilities.  No logical person can deny that. But debating which class has better core healing... go for it I guess.  But I think everyone agrees it's situational and nearly equal.

[quetzaqotl]

<DIV>srry double post</DIV><p>Message Edited by quetzaqotl on <span class=date_text>12-07-2005</span> <span class=time_text>08:39 AM</span>

[quetzaqotl]

<P>Well I am not distorting the numbers that master 1 was the only spell I had acces to and the diff between an adep vs master1 isnt that huge.</P> <P>And yes I can see that mobs in most cases wont hit the mt every  second or two always but theres a difference there.</P> <P>(btw group regen in 1 minutes ticks 24 times and reactive in 1 min 27 times under the ideal circumstances of course)</P> <P>But then again those same ideal circumstances are what makes people foam about hibernation/bitf and how often do clerics use their gro reactives compared druids you think?</P> <P> </P> <P>sorry for the derailment but it wasnt all my doing back to the op.</P><p>Message Edited by quetzaqotl on <span class=date_text>12-07-2005</span> <span class=time_text>09:00 AM</span>

[bigmak20]

Hiberation and BITF are not "ideal circumstances" -- they are simply seperate direct heals on seperate timers.  When you need them you have them.  That is a significant healing advantage over other priests.

[quetzaqotl]

<DIV>going into this further would derail this even more i dont agree with you on that also saying hibernation is a direct heals can be deceptive to people as it takes 10 secs and bitf needs a person in the orange is that situational yes I think so and everyone getting hit for 1k+ situational? yes imo.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Raijinn]

<DIV>I know there has been a little off topic chatter here and there in this thread but could we please stick to a suggestion thread for this one. Thanks!</DIV>

[Kardde]

<P>I do not post here a lot, but I do read this forum often, especially looking for little tips that others do and some good equipment that somebody has found. After reading this post I thought that I would toss in my two cents worth.</P> <P>Soloing - I do not have a problem soloing. It justs takes awhile, especially with green ^^^, but I can live with that since I do not solo that much, unless I am doing a quest or something along those lines. I am more than willing to accept the fact that I can't do the dps that other healer types can do because I do not view dps as my job. This opinion is expressed based upon my being in groups and raids all the time and that is the direction that I like to go and I am glad that I created a Templar for those two reasons and not to solo.</P> <P>Group - More often than not I group for Poets, Cazel, Tables and Roost most nights and I am the only healer and we rarely have a plate tank type in the group. Half the time we do not have a full group and we do not have much of a problem in these zones, but there can be deaths because of a resist here and there or a fizzle. Generally the groups are pretty consistent from week to week. At one point in time I asked the group if they could tell a difference with a Templar when compared to other healing classes and the response was "yes" in a positive tone.</P> <DIV>Raid - Most of the time I am in the main tank group. If I was not doing my job then I would not be there. Usually we raid six nights per week.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Overall, I am happy with my Templar and I feel that I have a good reputation as a healer in groups and in raids. I am not made to level by soloing.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>With that all being said I have noticed that Templars do lack utility when compared to other healer types, especially when it helps to define classes. I am not looking for more dps or an uber utility that makes everybody want us, but I was disappointed when SOE wanted to make all healers about equal in healing but did not really give Templars anything new, nor did SOE really take away from the other healing classes from an utility perspective or debuff but added some stuff instead, like the original Templar group cures.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Perhaps a few simple things would help define our class a little more without throwing things out of balance (I know that some of these suggestions have been made before): </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Reverence - give it a longer duration by about 10 seconds but keep the same power useage.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Sanctuary - shorter recast time, like 2 minutes, but keep the same power usage as well.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Unyiedling benediction - make this a group buff and takes up a concentration slot (but don't drop the percentage chance to work because if the MT is doing their job then other group members are not getting hit anyway).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Divine proetorate - have this not take up a concentration slot, but still only be a one person buff ( the reason for this change is the Unyielding benedition).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Overall, have Unyielding benediction be our utility spell. I think that this falls in-line with being a Templar. Possible protection in a pinch, but not always a given and gives us added value in a group setting that some feel that value is missing. Reverence and Santuary ups our value in a raid setting, but not by much because some raids you do not need Sanctuary (there is still a chance that this not 100%) and when a tank is low on power or not using much power (which does happen) then Reverence is not that important. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Just my 2 cents.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV><p>Message Edited by Kardde on <span class=date_text>12-07-2005</span> <span class=time_text>11:33 AM</span>

[Bad_Mojo]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Raijinn Thunderguard wrote:<BR> <DIV>I know there has been a little off topic chatter here and there in this thread but could we please stick to a suggestion thread for this one. Thanks!</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Sure thing.</P> <P>Templars need their damage spells looked at.  Either increased in damage for better effeciency or reduced in power cost for the same result.  They actually have a line that is actually the least damaging and least efficient when compared to like lines of other priests.</P> <P>Apparently their 'ancient scrolls' spells are also subpar, and could use a tweak or something to bring them up to snuff.</P> <P>And this is coming from a Fury.</P>

[Timaarit]

<div></div><span><blockquote><hr>quetzaqotl wrote:<div></div> <div></div> <div>Fateful Intercession Master 1 group reactive, heals 367-419 up to 9x, cast 5sec/recast 15sec duration 30sec </div> <div>Owls grace heals adept 3 group for 300-367 insta and every 2 seconds 6x on single, cast 3 sec /recast 12 sec duration 10 seconds (pwr cost 28<img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></div> <div> </div> <div><font color="#ffff00">well, the same intercession at adept III heals 300 to 367 per proc.</font> </div> <div>In 1 minute I can cast this spell 4 times (4x 3sec+10+2sec=60 secs) (duration is 10 secs recast is 12 seconds so that leaves out 2 seconds of no group heal)</div> <div>In 1 minute templars cast fateful intercess 3 times (3x15+5 seconds)</div> <div> </div> <div>on single target per minute  that is:</div> <div> </div> <div>owls: 333.5 (avg)x6= 2001   2001x4= 8004 per minute single target</div> <div>fateful: 393 (avg)x9=  3537   3537x3= 10611 per minute single target <font color="#ffff00">Adept III fateful heals 9005 per minute. Yes, I admit I forgot it (HoT) has 3s cast time. </font> </div> <div> </div> <div>And yes thats of course if the tank gets hit often but then again if the tank is near full health a group regen is wasted while the reactive waits on a hit also I dont what the power cost diff is between these spells but I can see when the mt takes slow hvy dmg the regen moves in more, but thats the nature of regens. <font color="#ffff00">And yes, of course only you could be... erm ...  you enough to compare adept III to a master one and not see anything wrong there. As for difference between reactive and HoT, if you can read, you know them. You really dont need to cast a HoT if tank is near full health. If you actually knew how to play, you would have known that too. </font></div> <p>Message Edited by quetzaqotl on <span class="date_text">12-07-2005</span> <span class="time_text">08:19 AM</span></p><hr></blockquote></span><div></div><p>Message Edited by Timaarit on <span class=date_text>12-08-2005</span> <span class=time_text>12:01 AM</span>

[quetzaqotl]

<P>-removed my post dont need rajjin to clean up for me like hes gonna clean up your little ignorant flame-</P><p>Message Edited by quetzaqotl on <span class=date_text>12-07-2005</span> <span class=time_text>02:58 PM</span>

[Dalchar]

<span><blockquote><hr>bigmak2010 wrote: But debating which class has better core healing... go for it I guess.  But I think everyone agrees it's situational and nearly equal. <hr></blockquote>That's what I was thinking.  If you have to come up with a situation where advantages are found... and those are maybe 5% of any situation that you may encounter... net result is people just bouncing back and forth when they're both right.  Time to get back on track though. Kenj suggested when I did earlier, increasing minimums on heals with higher wis.  Question... templar heals have the greatest variance on their heals probably do if not through just directs but the combination of the most heals in general between lottos etc.?    That would be a great boon to all priests though.</span><div></div>

[kenji]

<P>well...Dalcharis, i knew u suggested earlier, but it wasnt up to date, so, repeated that 1 again so hopefully it will get updated.<BR><BR>-------------</P> <P>to Furygod, actually...1 min HoT proc 24 times, GRH proc 27 times (they heal the same, u read the patchnote which your regen got upgraded)... the use of HoT will be up`d when someone in grp use manastone, Heart/Crack from Conj/Necro etc, i couldnt say which 1 is more useful, but GRH clearly created for Burst heal, and HoT is created for stable healing. but definitely not 5% and 95% of better case. if Fury becomes best burst direct healer and best stable special healer, hardly called them balance, since all other 5 priest is either do best burst , or do best stable healing.<BR><BR>Reverence need a look again (there is no reason to ask a tank to burnt 1k power but only 1400 heal - 140% at adept 3), and BiTF need to be same as other Ancient Heal that can be casted on Raid(but since here isnt Fury , i doubt any fix will get here.) </P> <DIV>58 ancient - DA need to actually heal, i dont care it work like Hibernation, but we definitely shouldnt hurt our grp to cast a spell. important note : expecially Templar lack of Group Healing compare with Warden, Fury, Mystic.<BR><BR>DPS issue, Armor issue, makes Solo...forget it.<BR><BR></DIV><p>Message Edited by kenjiso on <span class=date_text>12-07-2005</span> <span class=time_text>04:52 PM</span>

[Raijinn]

<DIV>I just wanted to let you know that we are listening to your concerns here and looking over the threads. Thanks for keeping them on topic!</DIV>

[Caethre]

<DIV>OOC.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG><FONT color=#ffff00>Thank you Raijinn.</FONT></STRONG></DIV> <DIV><STRONG><FONT color=#ffff00></FONT></STRONG> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG><FONT color=#ffff00>Really, thank you indeed, for letting us know, and for letting us know *that*.</FONT></STRONG></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Felishanna / Annaelisa</DIV>

[kenji]

<P>thanks for looking, hope to see us upgraded in next........few patches. but not 2007 <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P>can we have some focus? u feel that we should have an dmg add as LU13 said? or more heal to balance us between fury? or more 1k ac defensive buffs that got chopped since LU13?</P>

[Raijinn]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> kenjiso wrote:<BR> <P>thanks for looking, hope to see us upgraded in next........few patches. but not 2007 <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P>can we have some focus? u feel that we should have an dmg add as LU13 said? or more heal to balance us between fury? or more 1k ac defensive buffs that got chopped since LU13?</P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>We are looking into what we can do to help balance classes and remain fair across the map.

[Unmask]

<div></div><hr>Timaarit wrote:<span>Within one minute period, group HoT heals for 27 ticks no matter what while group reactive will heal up to 27 times (no more) only if target is hit for 27 times while this spell is up (5s cast, 15 recast means it will be up for 40s each minute, this means target needs to be hit about once per 1,8 seconds).</span><div></div><hr>Funny, I thought a person actually needs to be damaged for a group Hot to actually heal them.  My mistake.  A group reactive heals right when a target takes damage meaning it always heals.  If the tank isn't taking damage it isn't as if the group HoT is magically working.  And if the tank isn't taking damage then who really cares how efficient heals are?  All that matters is how good heals are when the tank takes damage.  You seem to think that tanks take damage in small, predictable, slow hits.  It would be a boring game if that were actually true.

[kenji]

<DIV>every healer must know these. there are 3 types of tanks. Mit, Avoid, Pet</DIV> <DIV>Mitigation Tank after LU13 means lack of avoidance, means most of the hits will land, but smaller dmg.<BR>Avoidance Tank after LU13 means lack of mitigation, means once he hit, dmg is huge.<BR>Pet Tank after LU13 means lack of mitigation (they removed it) and avoidance (compare to avoidance tank), means it take huge dmg all the time<BR><BR>as a Mitigation Tank, Druid and Cleric can both let the tank get low (say enough time to fully recover from GRH/Regen) then cast it. the tank will not waste your Regen / RH due to, rarely big shot.<BR><BR>as an Avoidance Tank, it happens, the tank rarely get hit - slow hits, big dmg, Reactive Cannot cover all the dmg once get hit, but it wont heal when the tank avoided all other shots, while Regen can actually heal even the dmg is stopped.<BR><BR>as a Pet Tank... RH even more worse...since the dmg is....too huge (naked heh) RH can never cover anyshots, since they still avoid better than mitigation... RH wont help more than Regen.<BR><BR>my thought? <BR>Mit tank not required to heal at 100%, u can do it at 50 or so, depends on mit gear and grp buffs. easy for both GRH and Regen.<BR>Avd tank required to prebuff at 100% for templar, cos every hit is huge dmg and passing the total heal from RH, and doesnt proc as fast. Regen will pwn RH<BR>Pet tank.. Regen won, big time.</DIV>

[Timaarit]

<div></div><span><blockquote><hr>Unmasked wrote:Funny, I thought a person actually needs to be damaged for a group Hot to actually heal them.  My mistake.  A group reactive heals right when a target takes damage meaning it always heals.  If the tank isn't taking damage it isn't as if the group HoT is magically working.  And if the tank isn't taking damage then who really cares how efficient heals are?  All that matters is how good heals are when the tank takes damage.  You seem to think that tanks take damage in small, predictable, slow hits.  It would be a boring game if that were actually true.<hr></blockquote>Funny, I always thought you didn't need wire models to understand. *shrug*</span><div></div><p>Message Edited by Timaarit on <span class=date_text>12-08-2005</span> <span class=time_text>08:07 AM</span>

[kenji]

<DIV>Raijin, 1 more question, what data are we lacking to give u before the decision to fix/rebalance templar?<BR>there are many suggestions at the top that mostly wont break the balance, but i still dun see a single fix/balance for templar so far, so we must lack of something... am i right?<BR></DIV>

[Shakir10]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Raijinn Thunderguard wrote:<BR> <DIV>I just wanted to let you know that we are listening to your concerns here and looking over the threads. Thanks for keeping them on topic!</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>No offense, but I hope the templars know that Guardians got this exact same response a while ago and still nothing has happened. They are listening, but don't expect anything to be done.

[Timaarit]

<span><blockquote><hr>Shakir1065 wrote: <blockquote> <hr> Raijinn Thunderguard wrote: <div>I just wanted to let you know that we are listening to your concerns here and looking over the threads. Thanks for keeping them on topic!</div> <hr> </blockquote>No offense, but I hope the templars know that Guardians got this exact same response a while ago and still nothing has happened. They are listening, but don't expect anything to be done. <div></div><hr></blockquote>Well Kend has already prepared us for it. He has been stating that same thing here for a long time now. That the devs do read and do listen etc. etc. But since nothing has happened to the concerns, well, the devs might listen and they might be looking into the matter, but they sure aren't doing anything. On the other hand, Raijinn didn't say that they were <span>:smileymad:</span>. He just said they were listening and looking over the threads and looking into what can be done. So in fact he was saying nothing. So here is another suggestion on what templars need : Actual actions for improvements.</span><div></div>