Templar Class Issues - What do we need? (Now updated Post-GU51)

[SenorPhrog]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Timaarit wrote:<BR><SPAN> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Shakir1065 wrote:<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Raijinn Thunderguard wrote:<BR> <DIV>I just wanted to let you know that we are listening to your concerns here and looking over the threads. Thanks for keeping them on topic!</DIV> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>No offense, but I hope the templars know that Guardians got this exact same response a while ago and still nothing has happened. They are listening, but don't expect anything to be done. <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Well Kend has already prepared us for it. He has been stating that same thing here for a long time now. That the devs do read and do listen etc. etc. But since nothing has happened to the concerns, well, the devs might listen and they might be looking into the matter, but they sure aren't doing anything. On the other hand, Raijinn didn't say that they were <SPAN>:smileymad:</SPAN>. He just said they were listening and looking over the threads and looking into what can be done. So in fact he was saying nothing.<BR><BR>So here is another suggestion on what templars need : Actual actions for improvements.<BR></SPAN> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>You guys need to cut them a break.   I doubt either of you has actually seen a timetable for how long it takes to actually implement changes into the game.   Shakir I'll bet you anything you want that they'll be some large scale Guardian changes in the next.....4 months.   Tim I'll bet you the same for Templars.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>"Four months?!?!  Are you kidding me?"   Look, I can read minds too.  First of all, it's the holidays.  Now granted thats a lame excuse, but find me a US business or government agency that hasn't slowed down production wise.   Second, they've got a lot of stuff they've been working on and in the pipes that we don't know about.  They've got an expansion they are working on, just finished redoing the loot tables in a number of zones, and are revamping 100's of named mobs.   Now I'm sure there are a few people who'd love for them to stop everything to fix the class that probably less than 10% of the playerbase currently plays but it may just not be possible right now.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Unless you are intimately familiar with the design process over at SOE (and I'm not as I've only seen pieces) I think you guys should give them a little breathing room on this.   They've seen the concerns and it's Raijinn's job to get the feedback to the Devs.   Let's let him do it and focus on providing what we'd like to see changed and why.</DIV>

[Aleph]

<P>I don't believe that I've contributed to this thread, and since it is the stickied one that the devs are looking at. . . </P> <P><STRONG>Utility</STRONG></P> <P>Utility is anything not combat related, in my eyes.  That means odyssey and summon food are about it.  This isn't much, and I don't really care for more.</P> <P><STRONG>Combat</STRONG></P> <P>1.  Mark line and Curate line--These debuff lotto heals are still underpowered.  You're lucky if they proc 1-2 times on a mob in a group because things die too fast, and if they do proc, they only heal about half of a reactive tick of healing.  Because they have a resist chance and a chance not to go off at all, I would like to see their healing values increased by a factor of 3-4, through either proc percentage or healing amount.</P> <P>2.  Sign line--I love this line, but I would like to see a particle effect on the target to make it easier to quickly tell whether a mob is pacified.  Checking whether it is swinging at you takes too long in the thick of combat.</P> <P>3.  Reverence--Give this spell more punch; at least 200% health for power for adept 1 spell quality.</P> <P>4.  Stuns--How about a 40% reduced cast time on the stuns?</P> <P>5.  Balance--Look at the advantages and disadvantages for both offensive and defensive priests, then make sure the game provides situations where both excel.  This is the easy one. :smileytongue:</P> <P>Alephin</P>

[Nari]

<span><blockquote><hr>Radar-X wrote:<div></div> <div>You guys need to cut them a break.   I doubt either of you has actually seen a timetable for how long it takes to actually implement changes into the game.   Shakir I'll bet you anything you want that they'll be some large scale Guardian changes in the next.....4 months.   Tim I'll bet you the same for Templars. <font color="#ffff66">The break has been cut. I already have something floating around here stating that I would like things to be changed and what changes I would like to see.  When I log in, I am doing something else now.</font>  </div> <div> </div> <div>"Four months?!?!  Are you kidding me?"   Look, I can read minds too.  First of all, it's the holidays.  Now granted thats a lame excuse, but find me a US business or government agency that hasn't slowed down production wise.   Second, they've got a lot of stuff they've been working on and in the pipes that we don't know about.  They've got an expansion they are working on, just finished redoing the loot tables in a number of zones, and are revamping 100's of named mobs.   Now I'm sure there are a few people who'd love for them to stop everything to fix the class that probably less than 10% of the playerbase currently plays but it may just not be possible right now.</div> <div>  <font color="#ffff66">From a development stand point, I know it is a short amount of time. From this side of the screen, it seems an eternity. Please send your mind reading device to my office.  There are some people there who could really find it useful.</font> </div> <div>Unless you are intimately familiar with the design process over at SOE (and I'm not as I've only seen pieces) I think you guys should give them a little breathing room on this.   They've seen the concerns and it's Raijinn's job to get the feedback to the Devs.   Let's let him do it and focus on providing what we'd like to see changed and why. <font color="#ffff66">I am not familiar with SOE practices, but I know how long it takes to do stuff.  The fix for furies came packaged with lots of other things.  Who knows what we'll get.</font> </div><hr></blockquote></span><div></div>

[Timaarit]

So as usual, instead of improving some class step by step, they revamp every class to an extent that no one is happy exept the classes that weren't playable earlier. Yes, happened before and since they are not doing any slight improvements, it will happen again. <div></div>

[SenorPhrog]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> 3devious wrote:<BR><SPAN><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Radar-X wrote:<BR> <BR> <DIV>You guys need to cut them a break.   I doubt either of you has actually seen a timetable for how long it takes to actually implement changes into the game.   Shakir I'll bet you anything you want that they'll be some large scale Guardian changes in the next.....4 months.   Tim I'll bet you the same for Templars.<BR><BR><FONT color=#ffff66>The break has been cut. I already have something floating around here stating that I would like things to be changed and what changes I would like to see.  When I log in, I am doing something else now.</FONT> <BR></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#3399ff>Yay I love rainbow posts.  :smileyhappy:  Patience is one of the most difficult things in the world to have to me especially.  I didn't say it was easy at all.   I just think they are being hard on the devs.   From talking to the few I occassionally get to talk to I know these guys don't just sit around looking for new ways to annoy us and improved ways to break things.  They love this game as much if not more than we do.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#3399ff></FONT> </DIV> <DIV>"Four months?!?!  Are you kidding me?"   Look, I can read minds too.  First of all, it's the holidays.  Now granted thats a lame excuse, but find me a US business or government agency that hasn't slowed down production wise.   Second, they've got a lot of stuff they've been working on and in the pipes that we don't know about.  They've got an expansion they are working on, just finished redoing the loot tables in a number of zones, and are revamping 100's of named mobs.   Now I'm sure there are a few people who'd love for them to stop everything to fix the class that probably less than 10% of the playerbase currently plays but it may just not be possible right now.</DIV> <DIV><BR><FONT color=#ffff66>From a development stand point, I know it is a short amount of time. From this side of the screen, it seems an eternity. Please send your mind reading device to my office.  There are some people there who could really find it useful.</FONT><BR></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#3399ff>Its unfortunate but my mind reading device apparently only works on the forums.   At my place of employement not only does it not work but I tend to get the exact opposite thoughts causing the word "oops" to be part of my frequent vocabulary.</FONT><BR></DIV> <DIV>Unless you are intimately familiar with the design process over at SOE (and I'm not as I've only seen pieces) I think you guys should give them a little breathing room on this.   They've seen the concerns and it's Raijinn's job to get the feedback to the Devs.   Let's let him do it and focus on providing what we'd like to see changed and why.<BR><BR><FONT color=#ffff66>I am not familiar with SOE practices, but I know how long it takes to do stuff.  The fix for furies came packaged with lots of other things.  Who knows what we'll get.</FONT><BR></DIV> <P><FONT color=#3399ff>Most people who knew the furies well before the recent changes knew they had some issues.  Serious ones.  Now that isn't to defend furies because I could give two craps about my Fury in comparison to my Templar.    Stuff has to be in the works.  Give it time.</FONT></P> <P><BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR></SPAN> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>

[Gcha]

<DIV>Well here's my two cents, bearing in mind that I think the class needs a major revamp and that I consider a cleric based on lotto and proc spells to be unacceptable.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>1. Mark and Curate lines - remove them, or make the Mark line simply a reliable healing shield, not based on lotto.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>2. Sign line - remove it.  Clerics are not mezzers.  Give us root instead.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>3. Heals - Remove reactive healing, or cut it down to an occasional extra heaing type spell for high spike damage situations. Put in the celestial healing line.  Put in the the remedy line, or adjust existing DHs for faster cast and recast, and greater healing.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>4. Offense - give templars a self-only damage shield.  Increase damage on nukes by 20%  (if that means you need to adjust inquisitors and some other classes up a bit to stay ahead of us, do it.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>5. Give clerics an undead DOT.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>6. Give clerics invis to undead (self and group).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>7. Odyssey - don't care.  Remove it if you feel necessary to offset other additions.  Give it to druids and wizzies, where it belongs.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>8. Soothe, pacify, and stuns - Seem basically okay to me.  Some tweaks may be needed.  Others are addressing this.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>9. (Edit) Oh yeah, fix the ding dang resist, interrupt, fizzle situation (for us and others) .. entirely too much clicking is require to get through a fight.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As far as the timetable for fixes, Radar, I am reasonably patient.   But people are going to continue discussing their concerns in the meantime.</DIV><p>Message Edited by Gchang on <span class=date_text>12-08-2005</span> <span class=time_text>08:18 AM</span>

[SenorPhrog]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Timaarit wrote:<BR>So as usual, instead of improving some class step by step, they revamp every class to an extent that no one is happy exept the classes that weren't playable earlier. Yes, happened before and since they are not doing any slight improvements, it will happen again.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>You're not getting the purpose of the revamp.  It's called a revamp because it was so encompassing it changes were more than just cosmetic.  Go back through the notes and look at all the classes they changed.   Instead of doing 1 million updates, they chose to focus on a few large ones.   It was a judgement call on their end and its easy to criticize with hindsight. </P> <P> We have seen "slight improvements" with the Mark of and Involuntary Cure lines for example (and whether you like the spells or not is irrelevant you have to admit a 5% to 20% proc chance is an improvement).</P> <DIV>I'm not saying stuff is right in any way.  I'm not saying there isn't stuff that seriously needs fixing.  I'm just saying I think they are working on it.</DIV>

[KingOfF00LS]

For the love of Pete, will you please stop arguing over whether HoTs or Reactives are better.  They both heal, they both have positives and negatives, and they both work pretty dang well for the vast majority of healing that needs done as you walk the lands.  Ok?Druids, we know you can keep people alive using your HoTs.  Period.Clerics, I know you all can keep people alive using reactives, the same as I do.  Period.Now please, let it go.  You're wearing out the scroll button on my mouse.This is exactly the kind of junk that causes good suggestions to get lost as they are overcome and skipped past due to all the garbage that surrounds them.  So back on topic, can we?Now, I still think the way to go is to get tweaks to the areas that are causing the most problems at the moment.  For me (and a lot of people I've talked to) the cast and recast timers on our heals seem to be a bit out of whack.  I will again humbly ask that any dev-type reading this please take another look at the timers and see if it wouldn't be reasonable to back off the cast and recast timers both on the direct heals and the reactives.Thanks.<div></div>

[KingOfF00LS]

<span><blockquote><hr>Radar-X wrote: <div>You guys need to cut them a break.   I doubt either of you has actually seen a timetable for how long it takes to actually implement changes into the game.   Shakir I'll bet you anything you want that they'll be some large scale Guardian changes in the next.....4 months.   Tim I'll bet you the same for Templars.  </div> <div> </div> <div>"Four months?!?!  Are you kidding me?"   Look, I can read minds too.  First of all, it's the holidays.  Now granted thats a lame excuse, but find me a US business or government agency that hasn't slowed down production wise.   Second, they've got a lot of stuff they've been working on and in the pipes that we don't know about.  They've got an expansion they are working on, just finished redoing the loot tables in a number of zones, and are revamping 100's of named mobs.   Now I'm sure there are a few people who'd love for them to stop everything to fix the class that probably less than 10% of the playerbase currently plays but it may just not be possible right now.</div> <div> </div> <div>Unless you are intimately familiar with the design process over at SOE (and I'm not as I've only seen pieces) I think you guys should give them a little breathing room on this.   They've seen the concerns and it's Raijinn's job to get the feedback to the Devs.   Let's let him do it and focus on providing what we'd like to see changed and why.</div><hr></blockquote></span><span>Radar-X gets the gold star.  I think that's the only post of yours I've read so far that I completely agree with.Some of yall are getting just waaaay to venomous and impatient.  Yes, we want results, but let's give them a little time and be less arrogant, condescending, and demanding.  We all now how much it annoys us when someone acts that way towards us, right?</span><div></div>

[Eepop]

<span><font color="#ff0000">I play a Mystic, not a Templar.  But I group with a Templar of roughly equal level/spells/equipment daily, and we frequently discuss priestly issues.</font><font color="#ff0000"> </font><font color="#ff0000"> </font><font color="#ff0000">So here is my input, and some of hers by proxy.</font><blockquote><hr>Caethre wrote:<div></div> <div></div> <div></div> <div></div> <div></div> <div></div> <div></div> <div></div> <div></div> <div></div> <div></div> <div></div> <div></div> <div></div> <div></div> <div><font color="#ffff00">(1) Interrupts</font>.</div> <div> </div> <div>Templars are reporting a considerable increase in the number interrupts since LU13. Other classes have similar issues.- Fizzles remain too high on beneficial spells (not just a Templar issue)</div> <div><font color="#ff0000">Agreed.  Mystics wearing medium armor arent faring much better if at all.</font> </div> <div> <div><font color="#ffff00">(2) Solo Capability / DPS</font></div> <div> </div> <div>Many Templars are reported that soloing is now painfully slow, compared to other classes, and this is particularly poignant with comparison to the other priest classes. <font color="#ff0000">Mystics are not dishing out much more if any damage than Templars.  I've soloed.  I've watched her solo.  They are both so painfully slow it hurts.</font> </div><div>Suggestions:</div> <div><font color="#ff0000">- In place of the 'Sign' line a series of angel or godly avatar shapechange buffs like druids and shamans get.  Then any subclass that has solo DPS problems can just have this line boosted to help out, with any of the wonderful suggestions you all have provided.  It would also add a much needed fun factor that is missing in alot of Templar spells.</font> </div> </div> <div> </div> <div> <div><font color="#ffff00">(3) Utility</font></div> <div> </div> <div>Many Templars are unhappy that Templars do not have utility spells of sufficient value and/or perceived value to solo situations, small groups, full groups and raids, compared to other priest classes. Abilities such as SoW, Evac, Root and Group Invisibility have proven considerably more appealing to groups than our relatively unexciting proc-heals and "mezzes". <font color="#ff0000">Mystic in combat utility is in general as good as Templar in combat utility.  I will admit that it is very often percieved as better based on previous expiriences and just the descriptions. For out of combat utility, mystics have SoW.  That is it.  No invis or evac. We also have no crowd control beyond a small stun on our AE aggro reducer line. </font></div> <div> </div> <div>Suggestions: </div> <div>- remove the 'Sign' line competely, and give Templars a single target root spell, this would make a big impact.</div> <div>- increase 'Sign' spells duration and decrease cast time, to allow a single mob to be locked down <font color="#ff0000">- My group's Templar would vote for replacing it.  Specific reasons why it doesnt work well:     1) General enchanter gripe that CC just isnt needed in EQ2.     2) Can't even lock down 1 mob.     3) To effect a mob, the Templar must shift its focus from the tank to a mob that isnt being attacked.  Often times, this lost time and putting your tank in your "blind spot" just is not acceptable, whereas the mystic spell of equal level, a str/stamina debuff can be cast on the tank's target with no problems     4) Debuffing the required resist is not easy, the only method for debuffing is lotto based and not reliable, so resists can be common...particularly in the situations where you would even need a mez in the first place. </font></div> <div>- enhance the options of Odyssey <font color="#ff0000">    Agreed.  Perhaps in the confirmation box give a number of options...( Go home to <racial district>, Return to bind point, Return to Qeynos Harbor, Return to safe point in this zone).  And lose the reagent for goodness sake.</font> </div> <div>- make Soothe full-encounter based</div> <div>- increase the casting range for Soothe <font color="#ff0000">    Both perfectly understandable requests.  My group's Templar is not a fan of soothe at all, but perhaps with some changes she might come around.</font> </div> <div>- invis vs undead <font color="#ff0000">    Most places where this would even start to be useful end up having the use cut short because non undead are mixed in with the undead.  Think of stormhold for instance, lots of undead so it comes right into mind, but the wandering rats will break your undead invis, then you get swarmed by the undead that hadnt seen you.</font> </div> <div>- another stun/stifle line     <font color="#ff0000">My group's Templar would much perfer another stun/stifle in place of the Sign line or the Soothe line.</font> </div>- replacing proc "lotto" heals with 'real' HoT heals</div> <div>- change the 'pacify' effect on our smites to stuns.     <font color="#ff0000">Agreed, and while they are at it, the snares on mystic smites are absolutely useless as well.</font> </div> <div>- change one of our "lotto" heals to a "fae flames"-like spell, but instead of doing damage on a hit, instead, heals (for certain, not a "lotto" chance, but a fixed number of times)     <font color="#ff0000">Perfectly acceptable.</font> </div> <div>- change our summon food/drink ability so as to summon better food/drink as the tier of the templar progresses.     <font color="#ff0000">Other priests would appreciate this too, even if it was always a tier behind it would be at least half useful.</font> </div> <div> </div> <div><font color="#ffff00">(4) Linked timers for heals.</font></div> <div> </div> <div>Some Templars are reporting severe problems keeping groups alive, especially in raiding situations, not due to a lack of power, but due to simply having to wait for timers whilst helplessly watching friends die. </div> <div>Suggestions: </div> <div>- remove the link between the timers on some of the healing spells (Bounty of Virtuous & Amelioration). </div> <div>- reduce some heal spell recast times in general     <font color="#ff0000">Mystics would love changes like these as well.</font> </div> <div> </div> <div> <div><font color="#ffff00">(5) Fixes to Existing Spells</font></div></div> <div> </div><font color="#ff0000">We are just reaching 52 and we havent found the rares for me(im the sage) to make the ancient spells yet, so no comment on these yet.</font> <div> </div> <div><font color="#ffff00">(6) Healing Power</font></div> <div> </div> <div>Some Templars have suggested on other threads, that post-LU13, their relative healing power leaves them feeling unhappy with their ability to bring enough to a group or raid to justify their position, compared to the other priest classes, given that those other priests bring more that is perceived of value to the table. Indeed, some Templars are already reporting being overlooked in favour of other healers in groups, and with a lower soloing capability, this is leaving them frustrated. [Note: this section might not be present if suggestions made in earlier sections were implemented.] <font color="#ff0000">I would much prefer that the above issues get taken care of first and Templars not be given an artifical edge in healing.  Templars already have more available spells that heal the group than any other priest, at the very least the base spells do not need to be unbalanced.  If any healing needs to be added, it should be within the "utility healing" portion, probably chiefly in making them more reliable and not lotto based. </font><span>- a seperate new healing line at 55+ or even 58+, on a different recast timer from existing heals.</span> <font color="#ff0000">While it seems that all of your ancient spells have issues, you are the only priest class I know of that recieved 3 abilities that in theory effect your ability to heal/cure/prevent. In an ideal world, Sanctuary prevents the need to cure things, which aids healing. In an ideal world, Divine Arbitration is a useful tool that actually helps keep the group alive. In an ideal world, Reverence heals well. I realize it is not an ideal world, but I imagine if these three were really working as intended than your request for a new seperate healing line would be fulfilled. </font></div> <div> </div> <div>Suggestions: </div><span>- a healing line with some HoT, to help us heal 'avoidance tanks' (reactives are poor on such tanks) <div>- when a reactive expires, the rest of the healing power fires, rather than it being wasted</div> </span><font color="#ff0000">Both perfectly acceptable.  At the time this is done, some manner of scaling should be added to druid regens as well to help them in the situation where they have problems.</font> <div>- stacking issues for multiple healers looked at</div> <div><span>- if damage is increased by more INT, make healing be increased by more WIS. This could be by raising the entire healing range of spells (eg 300-500 to be 350-550), or just by raising the minimum healing value (eg 300-500 to be 375-500).</span></div> <div><font color="#ff0000">These would both be highly appreciated by all priests.</font></div><hr></blockquote><font color="#ff0000">I truly wish you the best in getting your issues resolved.  </font></span><div></div>

[bigmak20]

My opinion on the ancient scrolls spells for Tempalrs; <b>Sanctuary</b> - A good spell.   <b>Divine Arbitration</b> - A good 'oh crap' spell but can't be called a heal (it takes more health away then it gives so it should be called "Curse of Arbitration" -- maybe a better spell for an inquisitor but since it's the only "oh crap" spell Templar's have please don't take it away).  Also has a significant recast timer compared to more powerful heals other priests get -- and theirs DON'T PUNISH THE HEALTH OF OTHER GROUP MEMBERS.  So overall... an ok utility trick. <b>Reverence</b> - lol Make reverence a direct heal (on a seperate timer) and enough of the lotto tricks already.  How many "percent chance to do something" spells do Templar's have?  It's ungodly.  Especially w/r/t HEALING.  We need HEALING not a chance to heal.  Even a reactive is a lotto heal when it comes down to it.  Tank get's a big hit once you put a reactive on them if the next hit is X many seconds later and a big one they're dead.  Totally wasted reactive.  We need some real direct heals right now we only have TWO.  TWO.  We have small direct heal and large direct heal both on very long timers with long cast times. Heck with it.. making a summation: <b>DPS </b>- If there's no such thing as a dedicated healer there is no justification for DPS to be so disparate in your typical less then 30 second fight (typical for everyone but clerics).  Come on SOE/Devs -- defend it.  What are you thinking? <b>Wisdom</b> - Inexcusable for every class but priests to be able to buff their primary skill's stats with gear. <b>Interrupts</b> - Does SOE have any idea how rampant interrupts are for a plate wearing caster?  I think they don't.  They couldn't possibly be so ignorant as to think this is how it should be.

[Eepop]

<span> <font color="#ff0000">We argue alot bigmak, but you make some excellent points here.  Since we don't agree so much, I wanted to put in my 2 cents in this rare occurance.</font><blockquote><hr>bigmak2010 wrote: Heck with it.. making a summation: <b>DPS </b>- If there's no such thing as a dedicated healer there is no justification for DPS to be so disparate in your typical less then 30 second fight (typical for everyone but clerics <font color="#ff0000">and shamans</font>).  Come on SOE/Devs -- defend it.  What are you thinking? <font color="#ff0000">Overall true, although you are SERIOUSLY overestimating the power of shamans.  I have no data on furies.  But I know that my mystic solos at almost an identical speed to the templar I work with that is of similar level/equipment. </font> <b>Wisdom</b> - Inexcusable for every class but priests to be able to buff their primary skill's stats with gear. <font color="#ff0000">Couldnt agree more.</font> <b>Interrupts</b> - Does SOE have any idea how rampant interrupts are for a plate wearing caster?  I think they don't.  They couldn't possibly be so ignorant as to think this is how it should be. <font color="#ff0000">Agreed it is ridiculous.  It isnt too much better for my mystic though. Between DPS and interrupts, both my Mystic and my group's Templar have given up soloing almost completely.  I completely accept Templars may even have it 5% or so worse off...but in the end neither is getting played in a solo context because of those two issues. </font><hr></blockquote></span><div></div>

[Bad_Mojo]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Eepop wrote:<BR><SPAN><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P><FONT color=#ff0000></FONT><BR><B>Interrupts</B> - Does SOE have any idea how rampant interrupts are for a plate wearing caster?  I think they don't.  They couldn't possibly be so ignorant as to think this is how it should be.<BR><FONT color=#ff0000>Agreed it is ridiculous.  It isnt too much better for my mystic though.<BR><BR>Between DPS and interrupts, both my Mystic and my group's Templar have given up soloing almost completely.  I completely accept Templars may even have it 5% or so worse off...but in the end neither is getting played in a solo context because of those two issues.<BR></FONT><BR></SPAN><BR></P> <HR> <P> </P></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE>Just to toss in my .02, not any better for leather wearers.  Just today I was interrupted four times in a row, by a lone green solo mob 9 levels below me.  I think the total number of interrupts that fight topped out at @ seven.  I won't say that's the 'norm' but I will say that's pretty sad it's even possible given the way mitigation and avoidance are supposed to scale depending on what the /con of your opponent is.<BR> <P> </P><p>Message Edited by Bad_Mojo on <span class=date_text>12-08-2005</span> <span class=time_text>04:03 PM</span>

[Shakir10]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Radar-X wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Timaarit wrote:<BR><SPAN> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Shakir1065 wrote:<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Raijinn Thunderguard wrote:<BR> <DIV>I just wanted to let you know that we are listening to your concerns here and looking over the threads. Thanks for keeping them on topic!</DIV> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>No offense, but I hope the templars know that Guardians got this exact same response a while ago and still nothing has happened. They are listening, but don't expect anything to be done. <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Well Kend has already prepared us for it. He has been stating that same thing here for a long time now. That the devs do read and do listen etc. etc. But since nothing has happened to the concerns, well, the devs might listen and they might be looking into the matter, but they sure aren't doing anything. On the other hand, Raijinn didn't say that they were <SPAN>:smileymad:</SPAN>. He just said they were listening and looking over the threads and looking into what can be done. So in fact he was saying nothing.<BR><BR>So here is another suggestion on what templars need : Actual actions for improvements.<BR></SPAN> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>You guys need to cut them a break.   I doubt either of you has actually seen a timetable for how long it takes to actually implement changes into the game.   Shakir I'll bet you anything you want that they'll be some large scale Guardian changes in the next.....4 months.   Tim I'll bet you the same for Templars.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I understand what your saying, but there is a big problem here. We, the players, are paying customers. While we can understand it takes time to do some things, others should be expected. We should expect the game to work properly. Still there are no T6 rare furniture for Carpenters, Templars and Guardians both have been sounding off to the developers for months now. Your 4 month time table would put us into the next expansion. </P> <P>It is one thing for something to just take time, it's something entirely different when the Devs just kick back and say eh, we will get it done when we feel like it. That type of attitude, and blowing hot air in the faces of the customers with statements that mean nothing such as, "We are reading your posts and listening to your feedback", will lead to far greater problems for the Devs than us just complaining about things with our classes. It leads to account cancelations. Look on any board and you will see for many different classes people have already started leaving.</P> <P>If it takes them another 4 months to get their act together I will be both shocked and extremely dissapointed. This is a great game, but right now it's just not fun at all for some classes. The devs don't need players to give them excuses. They have no excuse at this point. If you want to type messages writing excuses for them as to why it's taking so long, you should apply to work for them and at least get paid to do so. I saw in the roundtable that they are hiring if your interested.<BR></P> <p>Message Edited by Shakir1065 on <span class=date_text>12-08-2005</span> <span class=time_text>02:03 PM</span>

[Teil]

<DIV>I do like the self-DS idea.  Make it Holy Aura, or something to that effect.  Make it return Divine damage. And YES, make it require one concentration.  By doing all these things you:</DIV> <OL> <LI>Fall within Templar flavor lines <LI>Increase the DPS a templar can dish out while soloing <LI>Being a self only buff the Templar won't be using it in a group situation, as they won't be taking damage (in theory). <LI>And most importantly, you fill up that 5th concentration slot while soloing.  At least I always have one slot open while soloing.</LI></OL> <P>I love this idea.  </P> <P>I also like the idea of the hammer pet i do miss that from EQ1 </P> <P>For Utility i really want a root spell. We also had that in EQ1 was very helpful</P> <P>For Healing unlinking the Split paw heal and out other heal would be wonderful</P> <P>Lastly with odyseey i would like to see the a group version that we could kinda use as a evac but ours takes alot longer and give us the option  of TS or Nek that would be nice.</P> <P> </P>

[SenorPhrog]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Shakir1065 wrote:<BR> <BR> <P>I understand what your saying, but there is a big problem here. We, the players, are paying customers. While we can understand it takes time to do some things, others should be expected. We should expect the game to work properly. Still there are no T6 rare furniture for Carpenters, Templars and Guardians both have been sounding off to the developers for months now. Your 4 month time table would put us into the next expansion. </P> <P>It is one thing for something to just take time, it's something entirely different when the Devs just kick back and say eh, we will get it done when we feel like it. That type of attitude, and blowing hot air in the faces of the customers with statements that mean nothing such as, "We are reading your posts and listening to your feedback", will lead to far greater problems for the Devs than us just complaining about things with our classes. It leads to account cancelations. Look on any board and you will see for many different classes people have already started leaving.</P> <P>If it takes them another 4 months to get their act together I will be both shocked and extremely dissapointed. This is a great game, but right now it's just not fun at all for some classes. The devs don't need players to give them excuses. They have no excuse at this point. If you want to type messages writing excuses for them as to why it's taking so long, you should apply to work for them and at least get paid to do so. I saw in the roundtable that they are hiring if your interested.<BR></P> <P>Message Edited by Shakir1065 on <SPAN class=date_text>12-08-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>02:03 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>First of all when you say "we" you are trying to speak for everyone and I can promise you that you aren't.  You are one paying customer.   As for a game working properly?  This is my...5th or 6th MMO and I have NEVER seen an MMO that was completely working (which is a subjective term by the way as most of us consider "working" being able to log in and play).   </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Have to be honest thought, could really care less about Carpenters furniture.   See?  We all have priorities.   Yes the Templars and Guardians have been complaining pretty relentlessly for months (and not necessarily for bad reasons).   I don't really count the first month of that though, because the changes just went in during September.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>What bothers me though man is you don't seem to have your facts straight.  I've actually spoken to one of the people working on the next expansion and they can say absolutely nothing about it.  Zero.   Yet, you seem to have a release date in the next 4 months?  I'd also love for you to point out where a single Developer has said "eh, we will get it done when we feel like it."   I can only find a handful of posts where they talk about something more than what has recently been fixed or is being looked at.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As for "looking on the board and seeing people leaving?"  Please.   If the entire group of people that went to these forums more than once a week quit today SOE might lose 10% of it's customers.  Never base anything on what you see on the forums.  I have friends who have played this game since launch and have never once been here.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You have no conception what it takes to get stuff implemented and what the larger picture looks like.  I dont' need to make excuses for them because none need to made in my opinion.  There are always going to be people upset and SOE is never going to please everyone.  I'm hoping that you were just more than an upset Guardian trolling the Dev tracker.   You've got some high expectations for this game apparently.   I've played a lot of the competiting games right now and I see EQ2 no worse off than anyone else.</DIV>

[Redorio]

1) Interrupts are way WAY too common as a plate wearer. I appreciate and like the mitigation vs avoidance system in EQ2. Interrupts make sense. but it's far FAR to blasted common. I play a conjuror and templar, I KNOW my conjuror can get a lot more spells off than my templar can when being directly attacked. <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>2) Excessive fizzles on heals.Give me abreak, a few fizzles I can understand but this is still too common. Fizzling a nuke..is rare, fizzlign a heal seems common which is my class speciality so that's silly.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>3) Rubbish Dps. I mean REALLY bad, especially against groups when templars don't have stiffles, stuns, knockdowns or the liek to help.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Suggestions:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>a) Self Damage shield for solo</DIV> <DIV>b) AoE group only damage effect applied to a buff line as a proc. Boosting solo or group DPs.</DIV> <DIV>c) Reduce cast time of all heals by 1/3rd, they take WAY too long to cast especially when being hit so *often*.</DIV> <DIV><img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV><p>Message Edited by Redorious on <span class=date_text>12-11-2005</span> <span class=time_text>03:21 AM</span>

[Spag]

<P> </P> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> bigmak2010 wrote:<BR><BR>  <BR><B>Divine Arbitration</B> - A good 'oh crap' spell but can't be called a heal (it takes more health away then it gives so it should be called "Curse of Arbitration" -- maybe a better spell for an inquisitor but since it's the only "oh crap" spell Templar's have please don't take it away).  Also has a significant recast timer compared to more powerful heals other priests get -- and theirs DON'T PUNISH THE HEALTH OF OTHER GROUP MEMBERS.  So overall... an ok utility trick.<BR><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I would love to have this sort of spell.  Hey I'll trade ya Tunare's Watch for it.  Its an "Oh Crap" spell as well.  :smileyvery-happy:</P> <P><BR> </P> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Teilan wrote:<BR> <DIV>For Healing unlinking the Split paw heal and out other heal would be wonderful <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR> </P> <DIV>I believe it is on the same timer for all priests, which means it would have to be changed across the board.  This would help over all in healing, but not change anything for sake of balance, however this would hinder those players who did not purchase Splitpaw.  Should they then suffer imbalance due to not purchasing an optional adventure pack?  This heal is best left alone.</DIV>

[Spag]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gchang wrote:<BR> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>3. Heals - Remove reactive healing, or cut it down to an occasional extra heaing type spell for high spike damage situations. Put in the celestial healing line.  Put in the the remedy line, or adjust existing DHs for faster cast and recast, and greater healing.</DIV> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Can I ask why you chose cleric?  Not trying to flame here at all, but reactives have been the base line of healing for a cleric since release.<BR>

[Raijinn]

<DIV>Folks this thread has turned rather negative. I understand that many of you are frustrated however this situation is something that is actively being looked into. While I can't promise any timeframes we know what your concerns are and we are looking to address them.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Thank you for understanding.</DIV>

[Timaarit]

<span><blockquote>Spagma wrote:<div></div> <blockquote><hr> bigmak2010 wrote:  <b>Divine Arbitration</b> - A good 'oh crap' spell but can't be called a heal (it takes more health away then it gives so it should be called "Curse of Arbitration" -- maybe a better spell for an inquisitor but since it's the only "oh crap" spell Templar's have please don't take it away).  Also has a significant recast timer compared to more powerful heals other priests get -- and theirs DON'T PUNISH THE HEALTH OF OTHER GROUP MEMBERS.  So overall... an ok utility trick. <hr> </blockquote> <p>I would love to have this sort of spell.  Hey I'll trade ya Tunare's Watch for it.  Its an "Oh Crap" spell as well.  :smileyvery-happy:</p><hr></blockquote>I'm sure you would. My templar would too if he had as good group healing capability as druids.</span><div></div>

[Nari]

<span><blockquote><hr>Spagma wrote: <blockquote> <hr> Gchang wrote: <div></div> <div></div> <div> </div> <div>3. Heals - Remove reactive healing, or cut it down to an occasional extra heaing type spell for high spike damage situations. Put in the celestial healing line.  Put in the the remedy line, or adjust existing DHs for faster cast and recast, and greater healing.</div> <hr> </blockquote>Can I ask why you chose cleric?  Not trying to flame here at all, but reactives have been the base line of healing for a cleric since release. <div></div><hr></blockquote>I think many of us believed we would have a more direct role in healing instead of having various proc heals.  I never expected chance to be such a large part of it.  If I am not playing with a large group of melee characters, I feel that my healing is not as reliable as I would like it to be. (That might be difficult to implement, but that is what I want.) I think that is why people are asking for better direct heals in order to feel more in control of things. I don't know if that is the answer, but I just want more control.  I don't like gambling with blood.  Gambling with money is fine for me, but I don't like to risk the lives of my comrades on chance. (I like to be in fights where I am using ALL of my abilities and depending on ALL of my spells.  I even use the ones that I don't think are as useful to get even that tiny bit of utility out of them, so it really does matter to me whether or not something procs. It might make someone like me happier to get spells that are more reliable.  I want to depend on my magic, not pray to the gods of the random number generator.)</span><div></div>

[Cowdenic]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Bad_Mojo wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> kenjiso wrote:<BR> <DIV>due to the overpower of group regen, the hibernation spell isnt consider to be useful at all.<BR>best comment i have seen. <BR></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Due to group regens only really being useful after an AoE attack (or to top off someone that happened to gain aggro for a hit or two without changing your target from the MT), what good are they in 90%+ of most battles?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>best comment i have seen.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Have you fought the warlock mobs that do ae's and AE Dot's yet?

[Cowdenic]

<P>OK Suggestions I would like to see implemented for Templars especially.</P> <P>A 1 concentration self only Damage shield that hits all targets in group for roughly 20 damage every time i am hit (at level 60). it goes with the reactive flavor that I heal myself when I am hit. It is something that works for a big plate wearing healer.</P> <P>Another Single target Direct heal line with a VERY SHORT cast time and maybe a significant recast time. I.E. 1 sec cast 9 Sec recast. Power Cost to Heal efficiency does not really matter to me as much as knowing I have exactly zero heal spells available to be cast because of recast timers.</P> <P>Group Reactive cast time to be reduced by 2 seconds and recast increased by 2 seconds. </P> <P>Damage spells and power costs for damage spells to be increased by a factor of 1.5</P> <P>For the love of GOD give us a group Wis buff. PLEASE. Make our divine Praetorate a 1 conc Group BUFF. </P> <P>Increase Divine Debuff component on Mark lines (the real reason i cast this spell.) </P> <P>If certain classes (i.e. Druids) can outshine clerics in group healing (through regens) can we Clerics out shine them in Single target healing through our reactive line. My suggestion. Make solo reactives proc a maximum of 10 times with same cast and recast but let the spell only last 15 seconds. At the end of 15 secs whatever is left of reactive charges is then used as a solo heal on target. For this to be fairly implemented wards would need to be the middle ground and have a possible max healing of between group regen and group reactive and solo reactive/regen. </P> <P>Any possibility of making GOC a grp buff???? OK maybe that is a little much LOL.</P> <P>I am a Templar. I wear 100 pounds of armor, Can i please have a round or preferrably a KITE Shield? PLEASE. I prefer Kite for Heavy armor and Round for our chain wearing friends.</P> <DIV>Make Summon FOOD and Drink only castable on self. Make it no trade no value. Make it summon Tier below you food/drink. i.e. a level 59 would get tier 5 food and drink.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Thank you for your time</DIV> <DIV>Xlrate Lvl 59.8 Templar of The Horde on Everfrost</DIV> <DIV>Best Templar on Server, any Server.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Caethre]

OOC.<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Raijinn Thunderguard wrote:<BR> <DIV>I understand that many of you are frustrated however this situation is something that is actively being looked into. While I can't promise any timeframes we know what your concerns are and we are looking to address them.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Thank you for understanding.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Raijinn,</P> <P>Can you or a developer update the community when some decisions have been made please? Just the general direction of the way things are going, and current thoughts, if possible?</P> <P>I know there are some good reasons why you could never post ideas on a subject until a definite decision has been made (it's an internet message board, we know how crazy these things can be with so many players with slightly differing ideas), but some news when you can would I know be appreciated by us all. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P>Thanks.</P> <P>Felishanna.</P><p>Message Edited by Caethre on <span class=date_text>12-13-2005</span> <span class=time_text>03:00 AM</span>

[KingOfF00LS]

<span><blockquote><hr>Raijinn Thunderguard wrote:<div>Folks this thread has turned rather negative. I understand that many of you are frustrated however this situation is something that is actively being looked into. While I can't promise any timeframes we know what your concerns are and we are looking to address them.</div> <div> </div> <div>Thank you for understanding.</div><hr></blockquote>Thanks Raijinn for letting us know things are being looked into.  I know, at least for me, that it means a lot.  (especially my request about the cast/recast timers <span>:smileytongue:</span> )</span><div></div>

[KingOfF00LS]

<span><blockquote><hr>Cowdenicus wrote:<p>Make solo reactives proc a maximum of 10 times with same cast and recast but let the spell only last 15 seconds.</p><hr></blockquote>I really don't like that idea at all <span>:smileyindifferent:</span></span><div></div>

[Shakir10]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Radar-X wrote: <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>What bothers me though man is you don't seem to have your facts straight.  I've actually spoken to one of the people working on the next expansion and they can say absolutely nothing about it.  Zero.   <FONT color=#ffff00>Yet, you seem to have a release date in the next 4 months?</FONT>  I'd also love for you to point out where a single Developer has said "eh, we will get it done when we feel like it."   I can only find a handful of posts where they talk about something more than what has recently been fixed or is being looked at.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P></P> <HR> <P>Blackguard wrote:</P> <P>Be sure to <A href="https://secure.station.sony.com/optin/viewOptins.m" target=_blank><FONT color=#c8c1b5>opt-in for the EverQuest II newsletter</FONT></A> soon. In the next newsletter, scheduled to go out either this or next week, we reveal more information on our second expansion, player-versus-player combat, and upcoming changes to the newbie experience and cities of Freeport and Qeynos.<BR></P> <P><BR><FONT color=#999999>Ryan "Blackguard" Shwayder</FONT></P> <P></P> <HR> <P><BR></P> <P></P> <HR> <P>Moorgard wrote:</P> <P><BR> </P> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Quarmy wrote:<BR> <P> I realise it takes hundreds of hours to create expansions and adv. packs, but IMHO they need to lay off the Live Updates and start crunching some serious Pay For content.</P> <HR> <P></P></BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR> </P> <DIV>Don't worry, you'll be hearing about our next expansion soon enough. It just wouldn't make sense to try to publicize it before the holidays, as the announcement would get lost in the gift-buying frenzy.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I'm very excited about what we have in store for 2006. <IMG height=16 src="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif" width=16 border=0></DIV> <P>===========================<BR>Steve Danuser, a.k.a. Moorgard<BR>Game Designer, EverQuest II</P> <P></P> <HR> <P><BR></P></BLOCKQUOTE> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>Oh, and if those don't help you Radar-X.. Here is one more since you seem quite interested in how developement works at SOE. They are still hiring. The link is here. Below is just an exerpt from the post. </FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00><A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=pround&message.id=3804#M3804" target=_blank>http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=pround&message.id=3804#M3804</A></FONT></P> <P> </P> <P></P> <HR> <P>Gallenite wrote:</P> <DIV>Evening, everyone.  Really short update this time.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So far, this thread has led to two new hires.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Keep them coming -- I'm more than happy to continue forwarding resumes to other teams as well.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> <DIV>(Even the submissions that were less than serious, they were at least entertaining. <IMG height=16 src="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif" width=16 border=0></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This is a stellar community.  Period.</DIV></DIV></DIV> <P>____<BR>Scott Hartsman<BR>Senior Producer, EverQuest II</P> <P><BR> </P> <P></P> <HR> <P><BR><BR>I got the 4 month thing from you Radar-X, not just off the top of my head. My my, how the world turns. Seems like we are gonna get an anouncement about it a hell of a lot sooner than 4 months don't ya think?</P><p>Message Edited by Shakir1065 on <span class=date_text>12-13-2005</span> <span class=time_text>08:37 AM</span>

[Kendricke]

<DIV>To be fair, he didn't say announcement date.  He said release date.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <P><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN> </P><p>Message Edited by Kendricke on <span class=date_text>12-13-2005</span> <span class=time_text>11:55 AM</span>

[SenorPhrog]

<DIV><BR></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Shakir1065 wrote:<BR> <BR> <P><BR><BR>I got the 4 month thing from you Radar-X, not just off the top of my head. My my, how the world turns. Seems like we are gonna get an anouncement about it a hell of a lot sooner than 4 months don't ya think?</P> <P>Message Edited by Shakir1065 on <SPAN class=date_text>12-13-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>08:37 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>Wow I appreciate you taking the time 5 days later to finally respond AFTER Raijinn asked us to get back on topic.  Did you even read my post before you started grabbing random thoughts out of the Dev tracker?   </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Your exact words were "<!--StartFragment --> Your 4 month time table would put us into the next expansion" and I pretty much told you that you had no idea what you were talking about.   From what I have heard they will be <EM>announcing </EM>the release date in the first week of January.   Nowhere in my entire line of posts did I even talk about an expansion.   All I stated was I'll bet you negative Nancy that you will see changes to your class in the next four months just as Templars will (such as in LU#1<img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />.   Now if you don't mind instead of trying to get the last word let the <EM><STRONG>Templars </STRONG></EM>discuss what they would like looked at.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>On that note....the Beams of Faith change.  Has anyone seen it and does it make an impact?</DIV><p>Message Edited by Radar-X on <span class=date_text>12-14-2005</span> <span class=time_text>09:22 AM</span>

[Bad_Mojo]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Cowdenicus wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Bad_Mojo wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> kenjiso wrote:<BR> <DIV>due to the overpower of group regen, the hibernation spell isnt consider to be useful at all.<BR>best comment i have seen. <BR></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Due to group regens only really being useful <U><EM><FONT color=#ffff00><STRONG>after an AoE attack</STRONG></FONT> </EM></U>(or to top off someone that happened to gain aggro for a hit or two without changing your target from the MT), what good are they in 90%+ of most battles?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>best comment i have seen.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Have you fought the warlock mobs that do ae's and AE Dot's yet? <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>I highlighted the pertinant info in my post for ya <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><BR>

[cgWa]

<DIV>for a templar! it is good that all heal skill's cast time reduce 1 sec !</DIV> <DIV>healing is our important skill !</DIV> <DIV>I dont want companion die during casting...:smileysad:</DIV>

[Xerxess]

can we get this thread re-sticked also?

[Amey]

agree - re-sticky pls <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Yuggernaught]

<DIV>I agree, great post Caethre, Though I seem to be able to augment between heal timer with the use of the Mark line and the Involuntary Healer line. From my observation they stack well and keeping them at Adept III level gives me time to work my mojo. I dont know much about other healers Inq, fury ,shammy... Do they have similar spells. This may be what sets us apart.</DIV>

[Eepop]

Shamans do not have anything like Involuntary healer or Mark of Kings. We get 1) A str/sta group buff 2) A single target str/sta debuff At the level you get those. <div></div>

[Sokolov]

And I believe the Defiler versions is a group str/hp buff and a single target STR/WIS/AGI debuff (which doesn't seem to do a whole lot). <div></div>

[Sokolov]

<div></div><span><blockquote><hr>Bad_Mojo wrote: <blockquote> <hr> Cowdenicus wrote: <blockquote> <hr> Bad_Mojo wrote: <div> <blockquote> <hr> kenjiso wrote: <div>due to the overpower of group regen, the hibernation spell isnt consider to be useful at all.best comment i have seen. </div> <hr> </blockquote>Due to group regens only really being useful <u><em><font color="#ffff00"><strong>after an AoE attack</strong></font> </em></u>(or to top off someone that happened to gain aggro for a hit or two without changing your target from the MT), what good are they in 90%+ of most battles?</div> <div> </div> <div>best comment i have seen.</div> <hr> </blockquote>Have you fought the warlock mobs that do ae's and AE Dot's yet? <div></div> <hr> </blockquote>I highlighted the pertinant info in my post for ya <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> <div></div><hr></blockquote>Besides which, even in a place like Poet's Palace, I hardly ever have to actually heal unless it's a named.  So maybe that's why Templars need a DPS boost - there is nothing else do in most non-epic/named encounters!</span><div></div><p>Message Edited by Sokolov on <span class=date_text>12-16-2005</span> <span class=time_text>08:04 AM</span>

[Aleph]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> <SPAN>Besides which, even in a place like Poet's Palace, I hardly ever have to actually heal unless it's a named.  So maybe that's why Templars need a DPS boost - there is nothing else do in most non-epic/named encounters!<BR></SPAN> <P>  <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>This, in my mind, is this game's biggest problem, and it has little to do with templar dps.</P> <P>Alephin<BR></P>

[Sokolov]

<span><blockquote><hr>Alephin wrote: <blockquote> <hr> <span>Besides which, even in a place like Poet's Palace, I hardly ever have to actually heal unless it's a named.  So maybe that's why Templars need a DPS boost - there is nothing else do in most non-epic/named encounters!</span> <div></div> <p>  </p><hr> </blockquote> <p>This, in my mind, is this game's biggest problem, and it has little to do with templar dps.</p> <p>Alephin</p> <div></div><hr></blockquote>Agreed.</span><div></div>

[Andu]

<div></div><span><blockquote><hr>Alephin wrote: <blockquote> <hr> <span>Besides which, even in a place like Poet's Palace, I hardly ever have to actually heal unless it's a named.  So maybe that's why Templars need a DPS boost - there is nothing else do in most non-epic/named encounters!</span> <p>  </p><hr> </blockquote> <p>This, in my mind, is this game's biggest problem, and it has little to do with templar dps.</p> <p>Alephin</p> <hr></blockquote> Agreed. This is why to my mind the combat revamp is a failure. In fact, if you look at the reasons for the revamp they have all come up way short. </span> <ul> <li><span> It is still possible to solo heroic mobs, all that changed are the classes that can do it.</span></li> <li><span> The game is less challenging, in fact it is easier to play than ever before.</span></li> <li><span>It is still possible to kill orange mobs easily. Now you just cannot debuff or resist them (by an artificial trick of the combat maths stuck in at the last minute) which just makes them boring to kill as your options are reduced to zero.</span></li> <li><span>There are still bugged combat arts and abilities.</span></li> <li><span>There are still borked classes. Some have remained the same (enchanters) some have just switched around.</span></li> <li><span>Fabled gear drops like candy in a sweet shop.</span></li> <li><span>Legendary is the new handcrafted, rendering all the lower tiers essentially redundant. Everyone looks the same as a result.</span></li> <li><span>Casting is tedious. Instead of interesting spells that have a variety of effects we have simple spells that do one thing weakly that you are forced to spam. Sure, you are kept occupied in a fight but I wouldn't consider it "challenging" which was the main objective.</span></li> <li><span>The con system is still confusing to newcomers, in fact I would say it's more confusing than ever before.</span></li> <li><span>They still have had to make high end epic mobs orange to be challenging. They have still had to remove stuns, poisons and a number of debuffs to make them work.</span></li> </ul> <ul> </ul> <span>Don't get me wrong, I was all for a revamp. I agreed with all the premises that were given for it. However, when you look at it, what exactly has changed? And do you think it's better? And before you ask why do I play, there is a lot more to this game than just the combat, which is fortunate really. </span><div></div><p>Message Edited by Anduri on <span class=date_text>12-17-2005</span> <span class=time_text>09:55 AM</span>

[Spag]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Cowdenicus wrote:<BR> <P>Group Reactive cast time to be reduced by 2 seconds and recast increased by 2 seconds. </P> <P>Damage spells and power costs for damage spells to be increased by a factor of 1.5</P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I think these changes are acceptible, or possibly in regards to DPS, 2-3x melee damage (possibly a 1 conc buff), which would be befitting the Battle Priest in my opinion.</P> <P> </P> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Cowdenicus wrote:<BR> <P>I am a Templar. I wear 100 pounds of armor, Can i please have a round or preferrably a KITE Shield? PLEASE. I prefer Kite for Heavy armor and Round for our chain wearing friends.</P> <DIV> <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I never thought of this before, but this makes perfect sense to me.  May help with the interrupt issue too, though probably not.  Do Templars have any sort of buff for Focus?</P> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Cowdenicus wrote:<BR> <P>Make Summon FOOD and Drink only castable on self. Make it no trade no value. Make it summon Tier below you food/drink. i.e. a level 59 would get tier 5 food and drink.</P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Sure but this food and drink should also not have any stat buffs and be flagged as temporary too,  or if not your suggestion it should be same tier NPC level, and again no stat, no value, no trade and temporary.</P>

[Andalla]

<DIV>Please resticky this thread.</DIV>

[Cowdenic]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Spagma wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Cowdenicus wrote:<BR> <P>Group Reactive cast time to be reduced by 2 seconds and recast increased by 2 seconds. </P> <P>Damage spells and power costs for damage spells to be increased by a factor of 1.5</P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I think these changes are acceptible, or possibly in regards to DPS, 2-3x melee damage (possibly a 1 conc buff), which would be befitting the Battle Priest in my opinion.</P> <P> </P> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Cowdenicus wrote:<BR> <P>I am a Templar. I wear 100 pounds of armor, Can i please have a round or preferrably a KITE Shield? PLEASE. I prefer Kite for Heavy armor and Round for our chain wearing friends.</P> <DIV> <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I never thought of this before, but this makes perfect sense to me.  May help with the interrupt issue too, though probably not.  Do Templars have any sort of buff for Focus?</P> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Cowdenicus wrote:<BR> <P>Make Summon FOOD and Drink only castable on self. Make it no trade no value. Make it summon Tier below you food/drink. i.e. a level 59 would get tier 5 food and drink.</P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Sure but this food and drink should also not have any stat buffs and be flagged as temporary too,  or if not your suggestion it should be same tier NPC level, and again no stat, no value, no trade and temporary.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Neg Templar has no type of Focus Buff, save the one that all healers get from completing a Heroic Opprotunity.

[jpbaeten]

<div></div>Please hold all laughter and comments on my sanity until the end, <div><font color="#ffff00">         (2) Solo Capability / DPS</font></div> <div> </div>         - ability to temporarily 'bless' weapons for greater melee damage Self only, one concentration slot buff that grants a % chance to summon a vial of 'Holy Water' on every successful melee attack.  Upgrades to this ability will summon vials of higher quality (more damage).  Buff must be maintaned to use these vials. Vial description (much like those silly bear claws) - all numbers can be adjusted     Stackable to 99 / Clickable from hotbar     No value / Tradeable     1 second cast / 10 second recast / 10 second duration     Grants additional divine damage for each successful melee attack over the next 2 attacks     Deals additional (double) divine damage to undead I realize this is just stealing from concepts already in game and combining them.  Might be cool though. <div></div>

[Dalchar]

<div></div><span><blockquote><hr>Spagma wrote: <blockquote> <hr> Cowdenicus wrote: <p>I am a Templar. I wear 100 pounds of armor, Can i please have a round or preferrably a KITE Shield? PLEASE. I prefer Kite for Heavy armor and Round for our chain wearing friends.</p> <div> <hr> </div></blockquote> <p>I never thought of this before, but this makes perfect sense to me.  May help with the interrupt issue too, though probably not.  Do Templars have any sort of buff for Focus?</p><hr></blockquote> This will likely be a complete no-go.  Not unless they're able to restrict them to able to use those big shields only if they're wearing all slots heavy armor.  You'll end up with some templars wearing leather and cloth with a kite shield thus way more avoidance and mitigation than the other priests can achieve.  While it'd be neat and whatnot, it'd probably prove a balance issue.  Not for the priests wearing plate (for whom kite would be great), but for the ones who realize they can just avoid virtually all of it and gear themselves differently and likely get a big ole advantage.  Esp as we all know even a 5% difference in avoidance makes a big difference.  Kite/Tower is like +10%-15% or so to avoidance.</span><div></div><p>Message Edited by Dalcharis on <span class=date_text>12-18-2005</span> <span class=time_text>04:13 PM</span>

[kenji]

<P>Templar doesnt have Focus buffs. (although i dunno if focus really work or not, on plate user, i dun feel this work at all)</P>

[Timaarit]

Here is something that needs to be withdrawn from going to live with LU18: <font color="#ffcc00"><b>*** Gameplay ***</b></font> - Ungrouped players are now chosen first to be kicked out of an instance that has raid size limits. - Coercers can now duel with a charmed pet. - <b>Poisons (<i>as well as other applied effects that have a chance to proc on a successful attack</i>) now only trigger upon successful attacks made with the weapon in the primary hand. Note: Weapons with an inherent damage proc (like all crafted imbued weapons) are unaffected and will continue to proc regardless of which hand they are equipped in.</b> - NPC movement speeds have been increased proportionate to Live Update #17's player run speed increase. This will give 50% less procs with Glory of Combat when it is cast on a dual wielding character. In effect it means that we will lose more healing power than we gained with the 'fix' earlier to Involuntary and to Fate lines. Funny (and consistent) thing is that from priests, only templar healing is affected. Scouts get lowered DPS, monks will get lowered tanking capability (they create a big portion of the aggro with a proc that goes off then the monk hits) and we get lower healing. So this 'update' should not go live. <div></div>

[Sokolov]

<span><blockquote><hr>Timaarit wrote:Here is something that needs to be withdrawn from going to live with LU18: <font color="#ffcc00"><b>*** Gameplay ***</b></font> - Ungrouped players are now chosen first to be kicked out of an instance that has raid size limits. - Coercers can now duel with a charmed pet. - <b>Poisons (<i>as well as other applied effects that have a chance to proc on a successful attack</i>) now only trigger upon successful attacks made with the weapon in the primary hand. Note: Weapons with an inherent damage proc (like all crafted imbued weapons) are unaffected and will continue to proc regardless of which hand they are equipped in.</b> - NPC movement speeds have been increased proportionate to Live Update #17's player run speed increase. This will give 50% less procs with Glory of Combat when it is cast on a dual wielding character. In effect it means that we will lose more healing power than we gained with the 'fix' earlier to Involuntary and to Fate lines. Funny (and consistent) thing is that from priests, only templar healing is affected. Scouts get lowered DPS, monks will get lowered tanking capability (they create a big portion of the aggro with a proc that goes off then the monk hits) and we get lower healing. So this 'update' should not go live. <div></div><hr></blockquote>I think we should keep this in prespective.  Poisons are incredibly powerful right now and actually procs far too often in my opinion.  What this means is this "nerf" affects poison significantly more in absolute terms (altho relatively the same, at ~50%).  Another thing to keep in mind is that <b>NOT only Templars</b> are affected, as far as I know, every priest class has at least one line of spells that procs off a successful attack (defilers, for example, get a damage proc which deals a % of damage based on power used on that attack - yes, it is as sucky as it sounds). In my opinion, this means that the Glory of Combat line is actually INCREASED in RELATIVE performance vs all other procs simply because decreased DPS means healing is worth more (I plan to elaborate more on this in a new thread, whenever I finish typing it all out).</span><div></div>

[Timaarit]

How is less healing valued more when it is already trivial? <div></div>

[Sokolov]

<span><blockquote><hr>Timaarit wrote:How is less healing valued more when it is already trivial? <div></div><hr></blockquote>Um... by definition it will be valued more.  Perhaps not noticeably more, but I think it's a step in the right direction.</span><div></div>

[Timaarit]

<span><blockquote><hr>Sokolov wrote:<span><blockquote><hr>Timaarit wrote:How is less healing valued more when it is already trivial? <div></div><hr></blockquote>Um... by definition it will be valued more.  Perhaps not noticeably more, but I think it's a step in the right direction.</span><div></div><hr></blockquote>So if they removed the whole spell, healing would be valued even more <span>:smileyvery-happy:</span>, yes, remove templar healing, this way templars will be more valued /sarcasm off Sorry, I just see absolutely no sense in your post.</span><div></div>

[Sokolov]

<span><blockquote><hr>Timaarit wrote:<span><blockquote><hr>Sokolov wrote:<span><blockquote><hr>Timaarit wrote:How is less healing valued more when it is already trivial? <div></div><hr></blockquote>Um... by definition it will be valued more.  Perhaps not noticeably more, but I think it's a step in the right direction.</span><div></div><hr></blockquote>So if they removed the whole spell, healing would be valued even more <span>:smileyvery-happy:</span>, yes, remove templar healing, this way templars will be more valued /sarcasm off Sorry, I just see absolutely no sense in your post.</span><div></div><hr></blockquote>Each type of proc has a lesser chance of being procced, right?  We presume the % to be more or less equal.  Given the relative power of poisons, and the fact that they proc 25%(!), this change affects poison more than any other proc type.  Additionally, any decreases in DPS means more healing is needed, thus mitigating, to some extent, the effect the change has on healing based procs.  Thus, the overall effect on healing is that it's value will be increased. Does that make sense now?</span><div></div>

[Timaarit]

<span><blockquote><hr>Sokolov wrote:<span>Each type of proc has a lesser chance of being procced, right?  We presume the % to be more or less equal.  Given the relative power of poisons, and the fact that they proc 25%(!), this change affects poison more than any other proc type.  Additionally, any decreases in DPS means more healing is needed, thus mitigating, to some extent, the effect the change has on healing based procs.  Thus, the overall effect on healing is that it's value will be increased. Does that make sense now?</span><div></div><hr></blockquote>No. Why? Because only templar healing is lessened. Thus templars will be even less valued healers among the priests even if healing in itself is valued higher.</span><div></div>

[Franpan]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Caethre wrote:<BR> <DIV>OOC.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This is a thread which will attempt to put in constructive terms what it is that templars feel is needed to make our class feel viable and fun once more, to the many of us who are unhappy after the rebalancing in LU13.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><EM>Unlike some other threads, this thread will not begin from the assumption that the Templar class is essentially fine, and that anyone who disagrees is a 'whiner' who doesn't know how to play their class, but rather, that we Templars have a set of valid concerns, and we do not want to see our community split apart and many leave the game. This thread is not going to play the fanboy tune, but it is not going to assume the sky has fallen either, it will just list suggestions for making us feel we have a role to fulfil</EM>. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I will start the ball rolling with some initial ideas, in no particular order, put together by re-reading the other long thread and taking peoples' thoughts. I will update this post as regularly as my busy real-life work schedule will allow from any replies to it. Please feel free to post with any points you agree or disagree with, and any extra points you wish to make.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00>(1) Interrupts</FONT>.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Templars are reporting a considerable increase in the number interrupts since LU13. This affects us most when soloing, or in small groups. This is particularly noticeable when facing encounters with multiple creatures, with soloable groups of 3 or 4 creatures all with multiple down-arrows. Other classes have similar issues, but the very low avoidance of Templars due to wearing plate and yet having none of the avoidance-increasing options available to other plate classes, means that plate is seeming to be a handicap more than a help under many circumstances. This causing some Templars undue problems.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Suggestions:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>- reduce the capability of down-arrow mobs to cause interrupts to plate-armoured characters,</DIV> <DIV>- reduce the capability of down-arrow mobs / multiple-mob encounters to cause interrupts per se</DIV> <DIV>- mitigation could affect the chance to be interrupted, eg 50% mitigiation = 50% chance to resist an interrupt.</DIV> <DIV>- small base increase in avoidance chance and/or return of parry skill.</DIV> <DIV>- ability to use more shield types</DIV> <DIV>- single target avoidance buff (or selfbuff) to reduce this issue</DIV> <DIV>- some other buff or ability to reduce excessive interrupts</DIV> <DIV>- Fizzles remain too high on beneficial spells (not just a Templar issue)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00>(2) Solo Capability / DPS</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Many Templars are reported that soloing is now painfully slow, compared to other classes, and this is particularly poignant with comparison to the other priest classes. With this in mind, an increase in our capability to inflict damage in solo and group settings would help maintain a proportionate level of desirability in normal groups and a closer-to-equal level of ability to gain solo experience to other priests.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Suggestions:</DIV> <DIV>- self-only damage shield</DIV> <DIV>- look at the damage/power cost of the strike/smite lines.</DIV> <DIV>- improvement to all damage lines by x% (several suggestions)</DIV> <DIV>- Hammer pet!</DIV> <DIV> <DIV>- aim to Templars to have close to the total DPS of other <EM>priest</EM> classes in normal XP circumstances.</DIV>- turn undead snare/fear ability(?)</DIV> <DIV>- ability to temporarily 'bless' weapons for greater melee damage</DIV> <DIV>- offensive buff, again, for greater melee damage, eg yaulp-like ability</DIV></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00>(3) Utility</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Many Templars are unhappy that Templars do not have utility spells of sufficient value and/or perceived value to solo situations, small groups, full groups and raids, compared to other priest classes. Abilities such as SoW, Evac, Root and Group Invisibility have proven considerably more appealing to groups than our relatively unexciting proc-heals and "mezzes".</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Suggestions:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>- remove the 'Sign' line competely, and give Templars a single target root spell, this would make a big impact.</DIV> <DIV>- increase 'Sign' spells duration and decrease cast time, to allow a single mob to be locked down</DIV> <DIV>- enhance the options of Odyssey</DIV> <DIV>- make Soothe full-encounter based</DIV> <DIV>- increase the casting range for Soothe</DIV> <DIV>- invis vs undead</DIV> <DIV>- another stun/stifle line</DIV> <DIV>- boost to mitigation/health buffs</DIV> <DIV>- many stat changes to proc heals suggested (too many to list in this summary)</DIV> <DIV>- replacing proc "lotto" heals with 'real' HoT heals</DIV></DIV> <DIV>- change the 'pacify' effect on our smites to stuns.</DIV> <DIV>- change one of our "lotto" heals to a "fae flames"-like spell, but instead of doing damage on a hit, instead, heals (for certain, not a "lotto" chance, but a fixed number of times)</DIV> <DIV>- change our summon food/drink ability so as to summon better food/drink as the tier of the templar progresses.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00>(4) Linked timers for heals.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Some Templars are reporting severe problems keeping groups alive, especially in raiding situations, not due to a lack of power, but due to simply having to wait for timers whilst helplessly watching friends die.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Suggestions:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>- remove the link between the timers on some of the healing spells (Bounty of Virtuous & Amelioration).</DIV> <DIV>- reduce some heal spell recast times in general</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00>(5) Fixes to Existing Spells</FONT></DIV></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Some Templars are reporting some of our existing spells do not seem to offer what they ought to.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Suggestions:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>- Divine Arbitration, the effect is too weak (recast time too long) and/or does not upgrade on improving the spell quality to Adept III.</DIV> <DIV>- Reverence - too weak to be useful in it current form (perhaps replace with a long recast short cast-time large heal, for the "emegency save")</DIV> <DIV>- Sanctuary (many comments on its usability, it needs looking at)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00>(6) Healing Power</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Some Templars have suggested on other threads, that post-LU13, their relative healing power leaves them feeling unhappy with their ability to bring enough to a group or raid to justify their position, compared to the other priest classes, given that those other priests bring more that is perceived of value to the table. Indeed, some Templars are already reporting being overlooked in favour of other healers in groups, and with a lower soloing capability, this is leaving them frustrated. [Note: this section might not be present if suggestions made in earlier sections were implemented.]</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Suggestions:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>- Improve the healing power of some of our basic heals.</DIV> <DIV>- recast timer on the single-target direct heals could be reduced</DIV> <DIV>- stacking issues for multiple healers looked at</DIV> <DIV>- stacking mark-type (or other proc-heals) made possible</DIV> <DIV>- a healing line with some HoT, to help us heal 'avoidance tanks' (reactives are poor on such tanks)</DIV> <DIV>- a seperate new healing line at 55+ or even 58+, on a different recast timer from existing heals.</DIV> <DIV>- more generally, balance power pool size for templars to be closer to the level of other priest classes.</DIV> <DIV>- when a reactive expires, the rest of the healing power fires, rather than it being wasted</DIV> <DIV> <DIV>- if damage is increased by more INT, make healing be increased by more WIS. This could be by raising the entire healing range of spells (eg 300-500 to be 350-550), or just by raising the minimum healing value (eg 300-500 to be 375-500).</DIV><BR></DIV> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>I agree with EVERYTHING you just said, Templars once were a very fun class to play, I left my first main character, for a Templar, and when LU13 came up, I totaly went down.. Templars were fun, active, searched by groups, and able to solo BIG stuff... instead, now, I have seen many classes ooing nameds yellows at DoF/PoF with no problems (specially Summoners) andyet, me as a 51 Templar, it takes me a LONG time to solo a 10 lvls below named that shoul'd even hit me.. but instead, it takes me almost all my power and health to defeat, and even sometimes, need the help of someone else to take that 10 lvls below named.. before, we could take on a same lvl named and be able to kill them as we do now with a 10 lvls below named.... I am very frustrated beause of this.. and if SOE gets to do something to help us, me, and ALL of us would be very, but very pleased to make us as we once were before LU13..</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>--Panchulo--</DIV>

[MadisonPark]

<DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Timaarit wrote:<BR><SPAN> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Sokolov wrote:<SPAN>Each type of proc has a lesser chance of being procced, right?  We presume the % to be more or less equal.  Given the relative power of poisons, and the fact that they proc 25%(!), this change affects poison more than any other proc type.  Additionally, any decreases in DPS means more healing is needed, thus mitigating, to some extent, the effect the change has on healing based procs.  Thus, the overall effect on healing is that it's value will be increased.<BR><BR>Does that make sense now?<BR></SPAN> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>No.<BR><BR>Why?<BR><BR>Because only templar healing is lessened. Thus templars will be even less valued healers among the priests even if healing in itself is valued higher.<BR></SPAN> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>My understanding of his theory is not refering to our value as appreciation, but heals as in procing more often/ less. </DIV>

[Timaarit]

<span><blockquote><hr>MadisonPark wrote:<div> <blockquote> <hr> Timaarit wrote:<span> <blockquote> <hr> Sokolov wrote:<span>Each type of proc has a lesser chance of being procced, right?  We presume the % to be more or less equal.  Given the relative power of poisons, and the fact that they proc 25%(!), this change affects poison more than any other proc type.  Additionally, any decreases in DPS means more healing is needed, thus mitigating, to some extent, the effect the change has on healing based procs.  Thus, the overall effect on healing is that it's value will be increased.Does that make sense now?</span> <div></div> <hr> </blockquote>No.Why?Because only templar healing is lessened. Thus templars will be even less valued healers among the priests even if healing in itself is valued higher.</span> <div></div> <hr> </blockquote>My understanding of his theory is not refering to our value as appreciation, but heals as in procing more often/ less. </div><hr></blockquote>Yes, templars will heal less with this. How does this increase the value of templar heals? All I see is that it will decrease the value of templar heals since we will heal less. Thus our class will be less valued and in the end, our healing less wanted.</span><div></div>

[Caethre]

OOC.<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Franpan wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Caethre wrote:<BR> <DIV>OOC.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This is a thread which will attempt to put in constructive terms what it is that templars feel is needed to make our class feel viable and fun once more, to the many of us who are unhappy after the rebalancing in LU13.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><EM><rest of post></EM><BR></DIV> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>I agree with EVERYTHING you just said, Templars once were a very fun class to play, I left my first main character, for a Templar, and when LU13 came up, I totaly went down.. Templars were fun, active, searched by groups, and able to solo BIG stuff... instead, now, I have seen many classes ooing nameds yellows at DoF/PoF with no problems (specially Summoners) andyet, me as a 51 Templar, it takes me a LONG time to solo a 10 lvls below named that shoul'd even hit me.. but instead, it takes me almost all my power and health to defeat, and even sometimes, need the help of someone else to take that 10 lvls below named.. before, we could take on a same lvl named and be able to kill them as we do now with a 10 lvls below named.... I am very frustrated beause of this.. and if SOE gets to do something to help us, me, and ALL of us would be very, but very pleased to make us as we once were before LU13..</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>--Panchulo--</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>There is nothing strange about your post at all, it is the usual for hundreds (yes, hundreds) of Templars since LU13. However, it attracts my attention for an unrelated reason that needs no explanation. It is interesting to note your opinion on the issues. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Raistlan]

<span><blockquote><hr>Franpan wrote: as a 51 Templar, it takes me a LONG time to solo a 10 lvls below named that shoul'd even hit me.. but instead, it takes me almost all my power and health to defeat<hr></blockquote>All of your health and power to defeat something 10 level's below your's?  I'm not concerned about offence when I say this, either your gear is pathetic, or you have no idea how to play your class.  I have exceptional gear and spells, yes, but it takes me perhaps 20 seconds to defeat a solo mob 6 levels below mine.  I watched a 54 templar, casual player, mostly treasured/handcrafted armor... she took about a minute for the same mob, a white con to her, and your saying it takes all of your power to defeat something TEN levels below you?  Stop exaggerating, or learn how to play your class.  Personally, I'm waiting to get flamed merely because I disagreed with a point that made the "Templar's are [Removed for Content]" crowd's argument look better, even though I think we do need a bit of buffing in some area's. 60 Templar but cbf'd updating my sig.</span><div></div>

[kenji]

<DIV>i think the main point is <FONT color=#ffff00>solo</FONT> a 10 lvls below <STRONG><EM><U>named</U></EM></STRONG> .... more chance a heroic, but yes, it can be single ^ too.. if he means single ^, yes , his play style really need improvement, but if heroic, yes, a 10 lvl below heroic named can be challenging and extreme long fight =p</DIV>

[Raistlan]

Sorry, I did miss the point on the named.  It still does not take that much effort to kill one though, unless its an epic..... <div></div>

[Franpan]

<DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Raistlan wrote:<BR><SPAN><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Franpan wrote:<BR><BR>as a 51 Templar, it takes me a LONG time to solo a 10 lvls below named that shoul'd even hit me.. but instead, it takes me almost all my power and health to defeat<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>All of your health and power to defeat something 10 level's below your's?  I'm not concerned about offence when I say this, either your gear is pathetic, or you have no idea how to play your class.  I have exceptional gear and spells, yes, but it takes me perhaps 20 seconds to defeat a solo mob 6 levels below mine.  I watched a 54 templar, casual player, mostly treasured/handcrafted armor... she took about a minute for the same mob, a white con to her, and your saying it takes all of your power to defeat something TEN levels below you?  Stop exaggerating, or learn how to play your class.  Personally, I'm waiting to get flamed merely because I disagreed with a point that made the "Templar's are [Removed for Content]" crowd's argument look better, even though I think we do need a bit of buffing in some area's.<BR><BR>60 Templar but cbf'd updating my sig.<BR></SPAN> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>heh... I have full Legendary armor.... and cant say that I do not know how to plya my class.. and im sorry, it only drniks my power, not my health...</DIV>

[MadisonPark]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P></P> <HR> <P>Timaarit wrote:<BR><SPAN></SPAN></P> <P><SPAN>Yes, templars will heal less with this. How does this increase the value of templar heals? All I see is that it will decrease the value of templar heals since we will heal less. Thus our class will be less valued and in the end, our healing less wanted.<BR></P></SPAN> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>I will no longer comment on this here, as it is not a detriment to templars specifically, but is a change being made across the board. If you wish to draw this thread further off topic you may do so by yourself. There are atleast 2 other threads on this in issue in particular, I have commented there.<BR>

[Timaarit]

<span><blockquote>MadisonPark wrote:<div></div>I will no longer comment on this here, as it is not a detriment to templars specifically, but is a change being made across the board. If you wish to draw this thread further off topic you may do so by yourself. There are atleast 2 other threads on this in issue in particular, I have commented there. <div></div><hr></blockquote>I know it affects many classes, monk lose about 15% of their hate generation with this. So we are not alone. But that does not change the fact that we are the only priest class whose primary ability was nerfed.</span><div></div>

[kenji]

buffing dps to make more closer to the gap between fury and temp wont make class change <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><BR><BR>since 50 vs 200 and 180 vs 200 is the same, 200 side is better, but i want the 180 instead of 50

[Grimhamm]

<DIV>Thank you for maintaining this post C - it's the only one I've seen that gives me a little hope that some day the Templar class may be fun to play.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[nullcodehe]

<DIV>We have put forth self only damage shield.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>We have asked for dps increase.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>We have suggested an emergency heal.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I'm just gonna throw this one out there: stun proc!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You know my monk would go nuts with a templar in his group.</DIV>

[SenorPhrog]

<DIV>The idea for a stun proc sounds ok but I have to be honest..... I think we got enough "proc" spells.   I want something 100% solid.   Maybe an interrupt spell or something to use against casters.</DIV>

[nullcodehe]

<DIV>I dont like procs either but whoever is in charge of templars obviously does, along with long cast times.  So lets try to work with this.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Heres another: a 5 second cast encounter wide aoe that, for every tick, has a chance to cause a half second stun.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>or you know what I would like to have actually?  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The Involuntary Healer line be made encounter wide. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>That would be the bees knees.</DIV>

[Nari]

I agree, I would like something more dependable, too.  I haven't fought many casters.  Would this interrupt be something that you would cast when you see them casting (something with a really short recast time) or something that you could cast like a damage over time debuff that has a chance of causing spell failure?  (That would probably have a longer cast time, but not a very long duration.)? <div></div>

[nullcodehe]

Yeah, the aoe stun would act like a DoT, only not have any damage associated with it.  I gotta say I'm disgusted that this is the route we gotta go but considering that 10 more levels and an expansion are due soon, the best we can hope for is maybe a 10% increase to reverence or a bonus to our summon food and drink line.

[SenorPhrog]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> 3devious wrote:<BR>I agree, I would like something more dependable, too.  I haven't fought many casters.  Would this interrupt be something that you would cast when you see them casting (something with a really short recast time) or something that you could cast like a damage over time debuff that has a chance of causing spell failure?  (That would probably have a longer cast time, but not a very long duration.)?<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Well a great example of where an interrupt spell would be useful is with healer mobs.  Here is pretty much what goes on in my house.   I've got a Windsister druid type mob down in orange...</P> <P>"Ok...heroic....smite, celestrial strike...he's in the red and going down any second."</P> <P>"[Removed for Content] are you doing?  Don't you freaking cast a heal?!  SON OF A....DON'T YOU FREAKING DO IT!"</P> <P>*regen heal goes off for mob*</P> <P>"Ok...heroic, smite, celestrial strike, beams of faith, stun.....that'll get your...RESIST?!  [Removed for Content]?"</P> <P>*regen heal goes off again for mob*</P> <P>"Screw this....target self.  Reactive heal.   I'll let him burn off his power and beat on him in the interim."</P> <P> </P> <P>An interrupt is something with low utility (especially in a group), that would really help us out solo wise..  Right now all I have is a 7 second stun with a 30 second recast.</P> <P> </P> <P>As for the AoE stun proc?   In a group environment?  I dunno....I like the idea but that would be a lot of power to give a healer unless we're talking a GoC type chance of proc.</P>

[nullcodehe]

I'm sorry if I wasn't clear.  The targetted stun proc would be like our GoC, working on one target or using a concentration slot, and only effect one enemy at a time.  Although it would be nice to have that AoE as well.

[Caethre]

<div>OOC.</div><div> </div><div>Made a couple of minor updates based on recent comments here and elsewhere. This list is looking like it is grasping the concerns of many Templars fairly well now. I only hope some of the class balance issues it raises are actually addressed by SoE at some point in the near future.</div><div> </div><div>Felishanna / Annaelisa.</div>

[AzraelAzgard]

<div></div><p>Imo it would be preferrable if Divine Arbitration worked by equalising the percentages of the groups health rather than the raw numbers.</p><p>So a group went from say, 100% across 5 and 20% on 1 to 87% across all (then do the penalty).</p><p> </p><p>Rather than atm it would equalize the numbers so everyone would go to 5000 health etc.</p><p>The issue with the health equalizing is that it can send different classes to very different hp levels based on their max hp, its very unpredictable like this and it means that the spell is only good for saving people with low hp, the lowest member of the group which is often a mage, while this may seem good on paper the issue is, in any decent situation where you are of the appropriate setup, levels etc as in its nothing easy, your mage(s) in the party often die in 1 or 2 hits, often by the time you hit Fwhatever the splitsecond it takes to target your mage and hit your heal they are allready dead. Mages die too fast so as the only class DA really works for it makes it very unused, I generally cast it maybe once every 2 weeks *seriously*.</p><p>If DA equalized the % of all group members so they became the same hp it would mean that DA would be good for saving EVERY class every player no matter their max hp amount, the state of the group, how much damage the one person has taken, it would make it safer, predictable and would stop giving our group members heart attacks while atm we wildly transform the groups hp.</p><p> </p><p>So the changes I would like to see.</p><p>DA changed to equalize the % of the group members hp rather than the actual number.</p><p>DA changed to instant cast, 10min re-use timer.</p><p>DA to have changes in the penalty on the effect with spell quality like is said in the description.</p><p>Ad1 10%, Ad3 5%, M1 0% penalty like with the 3 levels of AA in EQ1.</p><p>My own experiments with having Ad1 DA and Ad3 DA show 10% penalty n conversion with both (by having a full group at 100% hp and casting DA would pull group members hp down to just reflect the penalty of the conversion incurred, with Ad1 and Ad3 group members and myself all ended up at 90%).</p><p> </p><p>Thanks</p>

[Timaarit]

Hmm, looks like all priest classes need a total revamp. As it is, our guild is losing healers in an alarming rate. Our healer mains have gone down from 12 to 2 within the last 2 months. So it is no longer just a templar problem, the boredom issue is touching almost every healer class. It is just not fun to solo/duo with a healer unless you are a fury.Why it has become a problem now? Because the alts are at raiding level and most people dont want to log to the healer since they need some of the raids with the alts. Prismatics is a good example. We are lacking healers since the new characters need the prismatics too. With 'regular' raids there is no such problem thanks to DKP, but the no-trade class only items create another problem. Why give those to character who wont use it exept very rarely.My question is that why has playing a healer made so dull? Is it a penalty for being a healer? It sure feels like it and according to most people, it 'should be'. After all "If you wanted to solo, you shouldn't make a priest". But this mentality is really hurting the best part of the game, grouping.<div></div>

[Franpan]

<div></div><p>well as I got into lvl 54, I think my skillz has gotten much better and much much more helpful for the groups as I took the Master II of thesingle target Reactive, it seems to work pretty good and it doesnt use as much power as it was before.. healing for 400-600 per hit its just awesome for that little amount of power, othersmay have choosed the strike/smite Masters as they saw the lack of DPS we have, but besidesthat, I havent got problems at soloing anymore...</p><p>My gear has changed a lot, from good to very very good, got more WIS, and more INT as the same time, and it seems that Templars are still with a little lack of DPS, but the heals seems to work pretty good by now, im not saying do not change the heals rate, because we all know they do need a little bit more, but the DPS is just sad... at lvl 54, I cant hit for over 500 if it is not a Master Strike, sometimes when you know, group buffs and such make your INT go up like crazy which is good, but at soloing.. it does take a lot longer of what other classes do.. you may say, "yeah, but the other classes dont have heals" yes, I do understand that, but still, we should at least just get a little bit more DPS..  aint I right?</p><p> </p><p>I cant wait to see the upcoming patches, we will hopefully get something good out of them 8D</p>

[kenji]

<div></div><div></div>i have never seen 1 tick of 54 M2 RH heal higher than 400 personally....=)<p>Message Edited by kenjiso on <span class="date_text">01-16-2006</span><span class="time_text">04:30 PM</span></p>

[Franpan]

<div>u havent??? what level are you?? and if u havent and your lvl is 54+, then you must have some real low WIS.. I will take a screenshot and show you the spall sometime tonight</div>

[Timaarit]

<span><blockquote><hr>Franpan wrote:<div>u havent??? what level are you?? and if u havent and your lvl is 54+, then you must have some real low WIS.. I will take a screenshot and show you the spall sometime tonight</div><hr></blockquote>Umm, wisdom has nothing to do with the amount healed per tick.</span><div></div>

[SenorPhrog]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Timaarit wrote:Hmm, looks like all priest classes need a total revamp. As it is, our guild is losing healers in an alarming rate. Our healer mains have gone down from 12 to 2 within the last 2 months. So it is no longer just a templar problem, the boredom issue is touching almost every healer class. It is just not fun to solo/duo with a healer unless you are a fury.Why it has become a problem now? Because the alts are at raiding level and most people dont want to log to the healer since they need some of the raids with the alts. Prismatics is a good example. We are lacking healers since the new characters need the prismatics too. With 'regular' raids there is no such problem thanks to DKP, but the no-trade class only items create another problem. Why give those to character who wont use it exept very rarely.My question is that why has playing a healer made so dull? Is it a penalty for being a healer? It sure feels like it and according to most people, it 'should be'. After all "If you wanted to solo, you shouldn't make a priest". But this mentality is really hurting the best part of the game, grouping.<div></div><hr></blockquote><p>Tim in regards to raiding, I can see thah there are issues and nobody is going to deny a little tweaking could improve things but an entire revamp seems a little extreme.   It's really hard for me to speak to the lower end game.  I realize at level 60 I've had nothing better to do than Adept III all my heals, so yeah I can see me feeling less pain than most.   Any lack of fun I have with my Templar is due to my hitting the level cap, not my inability to operate within the game.  Short of raid content (we just aren't that kind of guild), with a 60 Necro, a 60 Monk, and a few mid 50's DPS I've found very little content wise we couldn't handle.   Poets Palace, Cazels Mesa, Table of Ancients, Silent City, it's all be done for us.</p><p>I have to ask though, what would make a priest fun for you?  Did I enjoy spending last night fighting the last guy in the Bone Bladed Claymore for 25 straight minutes because he had a lot more power than I did?  No I don't think it was fun, but it's hard to really say for sure what I would change.</p>

[Franpan]

<div>Then ok, you understood the post I did wrong.. please re-read again,cause Inever said regeneration per  ticks, I said per hits</div>

[MadisonPark]

<div></div><div></div><blockquote><hr>Franpan wrote:<div>Then ok, you understood the post I did wrong.. please re-read again,cause Inever said regeneration per  ticks, I said per hits</div><hr></blockquote><p>Each hit could be considered a "tick" although I think it would be more appropriate to call it a charge. However, the general gist of the comment is the same.</p><p> </p><p>For the record,</p><p><img src="http://img389.imageshack.us/img389/2678/eq20000213da.jpg"></p><p>Message Edited by MadisonPark on <span class="date_text">01-17-2006</span><span class="time_text">09:53 AM</span></p>

[Franpan]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>MadisonPark wrote:<div></div><div></div><blockquote><hr>Franpan wrote:<div>Then ok, you understood the post I did wrong.. please re-read again,cause Inever said regeneration per  ticks, I said per hits</div><hr></blockquote><p>Each hit could be considered a "tick" although I think it would be more appropriate to call it a charge. However, the general gist of the comment is the same.</p><p> </p><p>For the record,</p><p><img src="http://img389.imageshack.us/img389/2678/eq20000213da.jpg"></p><p>Message Edited by MadisonPark on <span class="date_text">01-17-2006</span><span class="time_text">09:53 AM</span></p><hr></blockquote>Thanks for that screenshot

[Timaarit]

<span><blockquote><hr>Radar-X wrote:<p>Tim in regards to raiding, I can see thah there are issues and nobody is going to deny a little tweaking could improve things but an entire revamp seems a little extreme.   It's really hard for me to speak to the lower end game.  I realize at level 60 I've had nothing better to do than Adept III all my heals, so yeah I can see me feeling less pain than most.   Any lack of fun I have with my Templar is due to my hitting the level cap, not my inability to operate within the game.  Short of raid content (we just aren't that kind of guild), with a 60 Necro, a 60 Monk, and a few mid 50's DPS I've found very little content wise we couldn't handle.   Poets Palace, Cazels Mesa, Table of Ancients, Silent City, it's all be done for us.</p><p>I have to ask though, what would make a priest fun for you?  Did I enjoy spending last night fighting the last guy in the Bone Bladed Claymore for 25 straight minutes because he had a lot more power than I did?  No I don't think it was fun, but it's hard to really say for sure what I would change.</p><hr></blockquote>Well first of all the image of a priest should be changed. As it is, most people think that priest is just for healing and they are the ones who say "if you wanted to solo, you shouldn't have rolled a priest". The thing is that that same excuse can be used with every single class in game to justfy the nerf for soloability.What I mean is why should any class be soloable?Currently the best solo class is summoner and people have noticed that, there are summoners everywhere. Even I play one. They cannot kill the highest mobs, but they can do the needed with excellent efficiency and speed. That makes playing them enjoyable. Also when skillfully played, summoners can kill high end mobs which makes it even better class. When you pick a priest, you cant do that, there is no skill involved in soloing anything, either you are overwhelmed by interrupts or just damage, or you win after a long and tedious fight. That is the main reason why people are going for other classes. This can be altered by giving priests a lot more DPS. Now for those who say priest shouldn't do DPS, my question is simple; Why not? Even devs have stated that some classes can solo better and faster that others , then why not make priests the best ones, after all, the excuse for imbalanced classes already exits and is widely used.But since you cannot give priests more DPS than fighters, you need a total revamp. Most people want to solo often, that is how the mechanic should be focusing. This is not away from those who want to group since it does not forbid grouping. If you say that you wont be able to group if soloing is improved, well, is it fun to group with people who are forced to do so? Are those people interacting with you besides casting heals? I doubt it. Pickup groups are good examples.As it is, most priests have about 40% of the DPS that would make fighting actually tolerable. I noticed this with my monk, my templar has had about 30% of his DPS and the monk is fun to play. But even the monk loses for my conjurer, now that is fun to play, especially when killing groups.I think all this comes down to following - Healers should be just as soloable as any other class, current situation means that people don't level healers the same rate as other classes simply because the solo quests are practically undoable. Other do those quests while they are 'alone' and when healers are 'alone' they switch to alts and do those quests. This happened to my templar and has happened to most of my guildies priests (not to the furies though). Since all the combat is ever about, is DPS, priests can be easily made more fun by adding the DPS. Not even my conjurer has any tactic once I learned to play, it is all just about timing and button smashing. But since with high DPS classes the time for smashing buttons is short for general mobs, it is actually fun instead of boring.</span><div></div>

[Timaarit]

I need to add this since it is one thing that is bothering me too, we have 12 mains (+2 alts and 2 retired alts) at lvl 45 to 55. 2 of the mains are priests. So that means out of 34 people in lvl 45+, we have 4 priest mains (we used to have 10).People are now making priest alts, but not because they want to. They are doing it because guild needs healers. Does this sound a like a fun-to-play class?<div></div>

[icetower]

<div></div><div></div><p>As a Mystic with similar dps issues I agree with you.</p><p>We now have more active furies than other priest in our guild and they all consider their dps helps make them a fun and well balanced class, so I don't see a problem calling Fury the benchmark for the priest class.</p><p>One thing that would help bring us up to the benchmark for a starter is to lower the cast times on our dd spells significantly.</p><p>I will give my opinion on aoe spells, but that can be extrapolated to single target spells instead. I don't really care which area is improved, but one of the two definitely needs some help.</p><p>I believe your aoe got reduced to 3 sec recently, which is the same as ours, but that still equates to a massive 9 seconds casting time to do similar (actually a bit less) damage than a single 4 second cast of starnova.</p><p>Against a group of mobs you are pretty much guaranteed to be interrupted somewhere in that 9 seconds, making the situation even worse than it looks on paper.</p><p>In a group you don't always have 9 seconds to spend nuking either.</p><p>The equation should be evened out a little. As it stands our aoe spells cast 1/4 faster, has just under 2/3 the recast of starnova but does less than 1/3 of the damage.</p><p>Either the cast time should be reduced to about 1.5 seconds to even out the total cast time, (giving you a good chance of actually using it each time it is up) or the damage should be increased to about 1000 to even out the dps a bit.</p><p>This may seem unfair to furies, but at least its not calling to have them nerfed, and don't forget they have ring of fire and damage shield which still gives them the distinct advantage against group encounters.</p><p> </p><p>Message Edited by icetower on <span class="date_text">01-17-2006</span><span class="time_text">11:02 PM</span></p>

[quetzaqotl]

<div></div><div></div><p>Hmmm furies are the dmg dealing priests as is said on the new class creation screen on test furies are dual heals and destruction.</p><p>Im not asking for a mystics debuffs am I, while our debuffs suck [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]?</p><p>Of all the healers shamans are one of the most valuable in a raid force imo, so yeah even out the dps thatll balance stuff out.</p><p>So yeah fun should be the benchmark? hmmm ok Im ok with shamans getting more fun but then I think you should loose some of those "unfun"</p><p>debuffs.</p><p>Maybe it would be wiser to look beyond dps and simple healing.</p><p>Message Edited by quetzaqotl on <span class="date_text">01-24-2006</span><span class="time_text">03:57 AM</span></p>

[SenorPhrog]

<div></div><div>** removed.</div><p>Message Edited by Anterra on <span class="date_text">01-25-2006</span><span class="time_text">07:09 AM</span></p>

[quetzaqotl]

<div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><p>I would love some good debuffs, but yeah I made my fury knowing I would do ok dmg and still be a good healer, other classes are good debuffers and good healers etc. etc.  my personal taste and why I chose my class has nothing to do with the importance of debuffs simply put:  I like to do heal and do/add dmg thats my job (others enjoy to debuff a mob to hell and heal).</p><p>I personally wouldve liked it even more if we did more dmg and healed less than now, yeah I normally play wizards(and druids) in rpgs thats what made me roll a fury to be able to dish out dmg and heal.</p><p>So yeah I personally would prefer some more added dmg and losing some healing power, but as Ive said im in a top raiding guild so yeah in raids my healing power is needed I would like it if aa's would make it able for people to branch off in different directions: offense or defense.</p><p>Personally Id like to go more offensive but yeah as Im a healer in a raid guild I dont think I would chose to go that way if it was the way how aa's are gonna work which I highly doubt.</p><p>My personal preference to do more dmg doesnt mean I dont see debuffs as very important, if you dont see that, well....</p><p>** removed.</p><p>Message Edited by quetzaqotl on <span class="date_text">01-24-2006</span><span class="time_text">07:17 AM</span></p><p>Message Edited by Anterra on <span class="date_text">01-25-2006</span><span class="time_text">07:10 AM</span></p>

[SenorPhrog]

<div></div><span><blockquote><hr>quetzaqotl wrote:<div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><p>I would love some good debuffs, but yeah I made my fury knowing I would do ok dmg and still be a good healer, other classes are good debuffers and good healers etc. etc.  my personal taste and why I chose my class has nothing to do with the importance of debuffs simply put:  I like to do heal and do/add dmg thats my job (others enjoy to debuff a mob to hell and heal).</p><p>I personally wouldve liked it even more if we did more dmg and healed less than now, yeah I normally play wizards(and druids) in rpgs thats what made me roll a fury to be able to dish out dmg and heal.</p><p>So yeah I personally would prefer some more added dmg and losing some healing power, but as Ive said im in a top raiding guild so yeah in raids my healing power is needed I would like it if aa's would make it able for people to branch off in different directions: offense or defense.</p><p>Personally Id like to go more offensive but yeah as Im a healer in a raid guild I dont think I would chose to go that way if it was the way how aa's are gonna work which I highly doubt.</p><p>My personal preference to do more dmg doesnt mean I dont see debuffs as very important, if you dont see that, well....</p><p>** removed</p><p>Message Edited by quetzaqotl on <span class="date_text">01-24-2006</span><span class="time_text">07:17 AM</span></p><hr></blockquote>I just found it strange that you proclaimed the importance of debuffs but your personal preference is for more DPS and less healing.   ** removed.  I see no issue with a comparison to other priest classes.  I would not personalyl call Furies a benchmark but I would like to see a little equilibrium put on our end.</span><div></div><p>Message Edited by Anterra on <span class="date_text">01-25-2006</span><span class="time_text">07:11 AM</span></p>

[Anterra]

<div></div>Keep it civil.  I'll not have a good thread locked.  Play nice.

[Spag]

<div></div><p>Simply put, personal preference has nothing to do with necessity or usefullness.</p><p>I don't personally prefer to play a tank class, but they are pretty necessary and useful.</p><p>Just because he does not want debuffs does not mean they are useless, he simply prefers to play in a differnt fashion.</p>

[Andu]

Buffs/debuffs are neither here nor there. Druids and Shamen all have a place in the MT group in a raid for a reason - their utility. It stands to reason that all classes offer something in that department or we wouldn't bother with that group arrangement would we?It all boils down to a chart of Healing <===============> DPS. Healing makes you group friendly, DPS makes you solo friendly. Since SOE have decided that both playstyles have to be catered for in their primary quest lines and endgame goals, it stands to reason that to make a class viable and fun to play it has to be fun in both aspects.Now, from recent parses in raids, I have noticed that the strongest healer looks to be a warden.  However, in groups it tends to be Templar. In raids where you are not in the MT group, furies are excellently placed, as they have 3 direct heals to pick from as opposed to 2 (to heal the tank) and can utilise their group HoT to efficiently keep their group standing. Mystics and Defilers are pretty solid everywhere, their wards are the "perfect" heal if  you like, although the scrambling required with their weaker direct heals if the ward drops is amusing to watch.Bottom line is, healing is pretty balanced accross the boards, with classes excelling noticably in different areas.So, in terms of healing, I would say there is a range of +/- 10% between classes overall. Which is fine (if you accept SOE's vision of equal healers).So which buffs/debuffs is it that you seem to think warrant the 200% - 300% disparity in DPS between healing classes and in particular, why is it acceptable to render the majority of healers as pitiful soloers. Why is it fine for me as a Templar to be unable to complete writs efficiently, unable to complete the Peacocks/Swords of Ro/Ring lines without falling asleep. Hell, some classes knock of learning the djinn language in 15 mins with the solo djinns in PoF - I gave up after an hour and a half still needing two orbs.Why do you seem to think this is balanced?? Look, I'll trade you. You can have our Mark of .... lines, our Involuntary Healer line, our mezz line. All rubbish. Take divine arbitration as well, in its current form its worthless. Help yourself to Reverence and good luck with it - it stinks. If all this utility is so great you are welcome to it. In return, I'll have my DPS increased 250% and an intelligence buff. I won't even bother asking for the cliche of invisibility and SoW.There, now you have bags of utility and I have the ability to solo effectively. We're all happy.<div></div>

[Caethre]

<div></div>OOC.<blockquote><p></p><hr>Anduri wrote:Bottom line is, healing is pretty balanced accross the boards, with classes excelling noticably in different areas. So, in terms of healing, I would say there is a range of +/- 10% between classes overall. Which is fine (if you accept SOE's vision of equal healers).<p><font color="#ffff00">Yes indeed, despite the vast quantity of detailed discussions over healing on these forums in recent weeks, with various folks presenting why priest X can heal better than priest Y in differing situations, the bottom line does seem to be, that SoE appear to have more or less achieved <em>their</em> objective of making the priests approximately equal strength when considering just healing alone.</font>So which buffs/debuffs is it that you seem to think warrant the 200% - 300% disparity in DPS between healing classes and in particular, why is it acceptable to render the majority of healers as pitiful soloers. Why is it fine for me as a Templar to be unable to complete writs efficiently, unable to complete the Peacocks/Swords of Ro/Ring lines without falling asleep. Hell, some classes knock of learning the djinn language in 15 mins with the solo djinns in PoF - I gave up after an hour and a half still needing two orbs.</p><p><font color="#ffff00">And this is the issue, exactly. Why are Templars being left so pitifully weak when stacked up against the other priest classes in this regard. There is no balance for it elsewhere. It has been 4 months now. What I would like to know is, when is this imbalance going to be addressed?</font>Why do you seem to think this is balanced?? Look, I'll trade you. You can have our Mark of .... lines, our Involuntary Healer line, our mezz line. All rubbish. Take divine arbitration as well, in its current form its worthless. Help yourself to Reverence and good luck with it - it stinks. If all this utility is so great you are welcome to it. In return, I'll have my DPS increased 250% and an intelligence buff. I won't even bother asking for the cliche of invisibility and SoW.<font color="#ffff00">Again, I totally agree. Pointless tiny duration mezzes, trick lotto heals, etc are all exactly that ... rubbish. Which is why solo and group settings will continue to pressure people to re-rolling as druid classes, who actually have abilities that are USEFUL in helping complete content, and complete it in a timely manner.</font></p><p><font color="#ffff00">Good post, Anduri.</font></p><hr></blockquote>

[Diapause]

<div></div><p>I personally think that this unbalance within the Priest classes in terms of non-healing abilities will be addressed soon. My assumption is that the devs have to have noticed the anger and resolve exihibited in the non-Fury Priest forums. For the long term health of the game, I just don't see how we can conitnue to support the gradual loss of Priest mains and the nominal increase in Fury alts. None of this is factual of course, but my observation after playing this game so long.</p><p>I have my warlock now up to 42 and I can't tell you how much more fun I am having now than I did grinding my Templar. Yes I die alot since mages can't take a hit, but the sheer flexibility of being a significant contributor for group situations and soloing extrememly effectively, makes me wish I started launch with this toon.</p><p>just my .2c</p><p>Diapause - Lvl60Templar (Lavastorm)</p>

[quetzaqotl]

<div></div><div></div><blockquote><p>nm</p></blockquote><p> </p><p>Message Edited by quetzaqotl on <span class="date_text">01-25-2006</span><span class="time_text">10:28 AM</span></p>

[icetower]

<div></div><p>You furies conveniently forget that debuffs from the same class don't stack with each other, so (one) mystic and (one) defiler are definitely high on the list for raiding, but additional ones are no more valuable than any other priest.</p><p>So yes, if I were competing with a fury for a raid spot (and there were no mystics in the raid) I would likely get the spot.</p><p>Unfortunately, most situations in gameplay do not require debuffing at all, and for soloing and grouping the advantage furies have in dps far far outweighs the situational usefulness of debuffing.</p><p>If you are too miserly to be able to concede that some sort of dps increase is needed to bring other priests out of the doldrums after you were recently given the same consideration for your healing power, then you are just the dog in the manger.</p>

[Timaarit]

Here is one more suggestion which might actually even work:First of all, make it so that only clerics and crusaders have divine damage (this might be the case already).Secondly, make our divine resist debuff ten times more powerful than it is now.  Currently the adept III debuff gives my templar about 15 to 20% more DPS, so making it ten times more powerful would give me 150 to 200% more DPS on single target. This would make cleric DPS better at single targets than furies, but would still give furies far more DPS with groups. The thing is that due to the nature of cleric DPS, this would not be useful when in groups since in order to keep up with heals, templars really cannot spam nukes. But it would make a huge difference in soloing.Of course this would mean that templars would get a big advantage in PvP. But if Kend's view is correct, this can be fixed by making it work differently in PvP...<div></div>

[Chog]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Timaarit wrote:Of course this would mean that templars would get a big advantage in PvP. But if Kend's view is correct, this can be fixed by making it work differently in PvP...<div></div><hr></blockquote><p>Would not be very intelligent of SOE to make the following statement if they did not have the ability to change the effect of spells depending if they are used in PvP or PvE.  BTW, added the extra info on Taunts and De-agro just as an example of what they claim they can do.</p><p><a href="http://eq2players.station.sony.com/en/news_ff.vm?FeatureName=pvp_combat&section=development" target="_blank">http://eq2players.station.sony.com/en/news_ff.vm?FeatureName=pvp_combat&section=development</a></p><p></p><hr><p>Spells, combat arts, and combat in general may not function identically to PvE during PvP. We have the ability to define any level of differences in the combat system for PvP, from global changes like "all spells and arts do slightly less damage to players" to specific changes such as "this particular effect on this particular spell works slightly differently in PvP."</p><p>Here is a general outline of how combat-related effects are changing on a fairly broad scale. Note that the changes that are described below only have to do with PvP combat, as PvE combat on PvP servers functions the same as on Standard-ruleset servers.</p><p><b><i>Taunts and Hate Reduction </i></b></p><p>Taunts have the ability to change players' targets in PvP. They can also keep targets focused on the taunter for short durations of time.</p><p>Spells that reduce hostile hate or lower your position on a creature's hate list can force players to completely lose their target. Examples would include a Scout's Evade or Templar's Placate.</p><hr>

[SenorPhrog]

<span><blockquote><hr>Timaarit wrote:Here is one more suggestion which might actually even work:First of all, make it so that only clerics and crusaders have divine damage (this might be the case already).Secondly, make our divine resist debuff ten times more powerful than it is now.  Currently the adept III debuff gives my templar about 15 to 20% more DPS, so making it ten times more powerful would give me 150 to 200% more DPS on single target. This would make cleric DPS better at single targets than furies, but would still give furies far more DPS with groups. The thing is that due to the nature of cleric DPS, this would not be useful when in groups since in order to keep up with heals, templars really cannot spam nukes. But it would make a huge difference in soloing.Of course this would mean that templars would get a big advantage in PvP. But if Kend's view is correct, this can be fixed by making it work differently in PvP...<div></div><hr></blockquote>I like the idea of jacking up our divine debuff a lot Timaarit, but wouldn't that put our damage vs the undead off the charts?  I mean you put 150-200% more DPS against something that is going to get double damage from one of the nukes?  Maybe a little less than 150% but I could live with that.</span><div></div>

[Timaarit]

<span><blockquote><hr>Radar-X wrote:<span>I like the idea of jacking up our divine debuff a lot Timaarit, but wouldn't that put our damage vs the undead off the charts?  I mean you put 150-200% more DPS against something that is going to get double damage from one of the nukes?  Maybe a little less than 150% but I could live with that.</span><div></div><hr></blockquote>Well as calculated, we do 20% more DPS against undead than living mobs. Changing the debuff wouldn't affect this ratio at all, so if this would double our normal DPS, it would double our DPS against undead too. For me it would mean 25DPS more against undead. So I dont see this putting it off the charts.</span><div></div>

[SenorPhrog]

<span><blockquote><hr>Timaarit wrote:<span><blockquote><hr>Radar-X wrote:<span>I like the idea of jacking up our divine debuff a lot Timaarit, but wouldn't that put our damage vs the undead off the charts?  I mean you put 150-200% more DPS against something that is going to get double damage from one of the nukes?  Maybe a little less than 150% but I could live with that.</span><div></div><hr></blockquote>Well as calculated, we do 20% more DPS against undead than living mobs. Changing the debuff wouldn't affect this ratio at all, so if this would double our normal DPS, it would double our DPS against undead too. For me it would mean 25DPS more against undead. So I dont see this putting it off the charts.</span><div></div><hr></blockquote>Ok I'm seeing your math on this.  It sounds good on paper man.  I don't know how it would work out with multiple priests grouping or other classes that could take advantage of the debuff but its a good idea. </span><div></div>

[Bjerde]

The Peacock quest....they are a pain in the [Removed for Content], good thing they are against undead so we can do a "little" more damage to them. There are certainly parts that aren't solo for everyone, they are hard for everyone....invest in lots of invis totemsOne thing I noticed as I work my way through (on Secrets... now, the switches) Yes, I am stuck waiting for a tank and dps to help me)My concern today is what has happened with Soothe. I used to use it a lot when the expansion came out, on the last big patch it seemed to stop working as well. I get resisted by mobs all the time in Living Tombs. It used to land like 85% of the time....now it seems like it lands about 50% of the time. My Subjugation is maxed att lvl 60. Did something change with Soothe? Or is it just the mobs in LT?<div></div>

[Andu]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Bjerde wrote:The Peacock quest....they are a pain in the [Removed for Content], good thing they are against undead so we can do a "little" more damage to them. There are certainly parts that aren't solo for everyone, they are hard for everyone....invest in lots of invis totemsOne thing I noticed as I work my way through (on Secrets... now, the switches) Yes, I am stuck waiting for a tank and dps to help me)My concern today is what has happened with Soothe. I used to use it a lot when the expansion came out, on the last big patch it seemed to stop working as well. I get resisted by mobs all the time in Living Tombs. It used to land like 85% of the time....now it seems like it lands about 50% of the time. My Subjugation is maxed att lvl 60. Did something change with Soothe? Or is it just the mobs in LT?<div></div><hr></blockquote><p>Cant say Ive noticed a difference, although I hardly use it.  I guess Soothe is a mental attack and undead are typically very resistant to these.</p>

[SnowKnight]

<div></div><p>I posted this in another thread, just thought Id post it here where it belongs</p><p></p><hr><p>Imo preists need stances, maybe something similar to shadowform the preists get in wow, where you gain a whole set of new offensive skills and a fair bit of armour (not that templars would need more armour) but lose the ability to heal (In wow the preist still retains some ability to heal in shadowform, based on their damage).</p><p></p><hr>

[KingOfF00LS]

"Something" happened to my last post (go figure).  Anyway, just wanted to say the wife came to me last night out of the blue and said she was done with EQ2.  Was a happy day for me <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  So after she told me that I fessed up and told her how I'd felt about the game for awhile and she said she wished I'd have told her if I didn't want to play.  Guess I'm a pretty good actor <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  (the things we do for our wives hehe).  Many of you knew I had been only logging on for her and hoping she would get fed up with the game.  So finally last night I got to cancel the accounts!Just wanted to say good luck to those of you who are still diligently working on getting the class fixed and bad luck to those of you who would do anything to try to prevent progress.  Caethre.....nothing but love for ya.  There are so many of us that have appreciated what you've been doing.  I hope you and the multitudes of others are able to get back at least some of what the game used to be.Take care guys!!<div></div>

[Caethre]

<div></div>OOC.<blockquote><hr>KingOfF00LS wrote:Just wanted to say good luck to those of you who are still diligently working on getting the class fixed and bad luck to those of you who would do anything to try to prevent progress.  Caethre.....nothing but love for ya.  There are so many of us that have appreciated what you've been doing.  I hope you and the multitudes of others are able to get back at least some of what the game used to be.<hr></blockquote><p>Thank you, sincerely. Sometimes, it feels like I am on a battlefield here, and all I am trying to do is talk to SOE, and correlate the views of many Templars, to try to get the class balance issues that are upsetting so many of us addressed. That was a nice thing to say, sir, thank you. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>Felishanna.</p>

[Robert2005]

Indeed; keep up the good fight Caethre.  I'm continually astounded by what the other faction on the Templar forum gets away with vs. what the "save Templar" faction get's persecuted for.With the T7 and Achievements announcements these need to be added --1 - Clerics should not have to pay penalty for an Achievement -- and clerics should get the same benefits from their starter achievement that druids have.2 - Clerics hammer pet should have a duration at-least equal to a single solo encounter (2 minutes on average -- not 40 seconds; lol -- yet more proof no one at SOE has a clue about Templars in the actual game).3 - Recast timers are way too long and durations way too short on achievements in the Cleric tree.

[thomasza]

<div></div><div></div><blockquote><hr>Robert2005 wrote:Indeed; keep up the good fight Caethre.  I'm continually astounded by what the other faction on the Templar forum gets away with vs. what the "save Templar" faction get's persecuted for. <font color="#ff0000">Please watchout with remarks, we dont want any mod attention is this thread i think</font>With the T7 and Achievements announcements these need to be added --1 - Clerics should not have to pay penalty for an Achievement -- and clerics should get the same benefits from their starter achievement that druids have. <font color="#ff0000">We shouldnt but by now i am already happy to receive a little love from SoE to make soloing more fun then it is now. Its not the way i like it but its better then nothing.</font>2 - Clerics hammer pet should have a duration at-least equal to a single solo encounter (2 minutes on average -- not 40 seconds; lol -- yet more proof no one at SOE has a clue about Templars in the actual game).3 - Recast timers are way too long and durations way too short on achievements in the Cleric tree.<hr></blockquote><p>Message Edited by thomasza on <span class="date_text">02-16-2006</span><span class="time_text">08:37 AM</span></p>

[Foible]

<div></div><p>Back to the original thread topic.</p><p>What I would like to see is an insta-heal.  The most anoying thing for me in a group is to see a mage catch aggro and die while my heal is taking it's own sweet time to land.  In fact, the long cast times on all our one-shot heals seems bogus to me.  Isn't it enough to have a recharge timer?   </p><p>Yes we have that save-from-death heal.  I guess I have to get used to throwing that off more. </p>

[AzraelAzgard]

<div></div><div>Divine Arbitration Ad1 - Ad3 - M1 upgrades work and theres a difference in penalty, allthough a little less than what would be liked (Master 1 should be zero penalty imo) so thats ok.</div><div> </div><div> </div><div>The real thing here is now the way DivArb works, the way it balances the actualy hp number is bad imo, this means everyone goes to 4k hp or something, which basically puts your tank in the group into deep orange hp, limiting its use to saving casters but at the expense of putting the tank close to death, imagine the tank being 100% mage takes a huge hit u cast DA and all of u are now 90% except the tank whos now 35% and got aggro back off the mage and starts getting hits, in a flash hes red health...</div><div> </div><div> </div><div>If DivArb balanced the % hp amount of the group instead it would put everyone the same, more evenly balancing out the hp, tanks wouldnt be thrown into low hp and now suddenly instead of having a skill to save low hp classes by plunging your tank into low hp you now have a skill that can be used to save any class of any hp amount with control over the rest of the groups hp, no worry of differing hp max amounts, no worry of people being sent into random hp levels, even if the group is collectively lower hp and you use it atleast they all come out the same rather than the tank being thrown increasingly closer to death depending on what the groups hp is at the time.</div><div> </div><div>If DivArb equalized the % of the group it would be better not just for Templars, but other priests with us, of course the tanks no longer thrown close to death by the mad Templar <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></div><div> </div><div>Basically it would be a far better way to have the spell work in all ways over the current one, and as a lvl 58 Ancient spell it would justify its 15min reuse timer.</div>

[Caethre]

<div></div><div></div><p>OOC.</p><p>Ok, I have hugely re-structured the presentation of the original post of this thread, to direct the issues that have come up most often in a more succinct form. I have not (yet) gone through the most recent entries and added those into the original post, but I will do so in the near future.</p><p>Let me know if you have any <em>constructive</em> comments on the new presentation.</p><p>Felishanna.</p><p>Message Edited by Caethre on <span class="date_text">02-20-2006</span><span class="time_text">05:31 PM</span></p>

[nullcodehe]

<div>looks good and feels good too</div>

[StarryEyedElf]

<div></div><div></div><blockquote><hr>thomasza wrote:<div></div><div></div><blockquote><hr>Robert2005 wrote:Indeed; keep up the good fight Caethre.  I'm continually astounded by what the other faction on the Templar forum gets away with vs. what the "save Templar" faction get's persecuted for. <font color="#ff0000"><font size="5">Please watchout with remarks, we dont want any mod attention is this thread i think</font></font>With the T7 and Achievements announcements these need to be added --1 - Clerics should not have to pay penalty for an Achievement -- and clerics should get the same benefits from their starter achievement that druids have. <font color="#ff0000">We shouldnt but by now i am already happy to receive a little love from SoE to make soloing more fun then it is now. Its not the way i like it but its better then nothing.</font>2 - Clerics hammer pet should have a duration at-least equal to a single solo encounter (2 minutes on average -- not 40 seconds; lol -- yet more proof no one at SOE has a clue about Templars in the actual game).3 - Recast timers are way too long and durations way too short on achievements in the Cleric tree.<hr></blockquote><p>Message Edited by thomasza on <span class="date_text">02-16-2006</span><span class="time_text">08:37 AM</span></p><hr></blockquote>Large part is a mod QFE. Save the preaching, keep the constructive stuff coming.<p>Message Edited by StarryEyedElf on <span class="date_text">02-21-2006</span><span class="time_text">11:13 PM</span></p>

[nullcodehe]

<div>Thanks for saying preaching is a bad thing.  I totally agree with you that its annoying and i look forward to you helping us put an end to it.</div>

[Elya]

<div></div><p>My main is a templar, and I still love playing her. That being said, I have been also working on a warden alt. Why? Its simple really. I love to heal, but I would like to be able to do more than just healing. I would also like to be able to solo kill a monster in a comparative amount of time to others in the healing profession.</p><p>I actually had a guild mate watching me kill a level 35 heroic evil eye the other day, and he asked me why I took so long to kill it ( Iwas a 52 templar at the time). When I told him that was my fastest pace he kindly took pity on me and grouped up with me to help me work on my L&L quest so that I could actually complete it.</p><p>Thats the key to playing a templar, you see. Grouping. We are not the best fighters. Our nukes are pathetic. However we heal better than any other class out there. PERIOD. So, we sacrifice the ability to solo, or solo WELL, I should say. Our inefficiency in soloing mobs is counterbalanced by our healing diversity and power.</p><p>My only criticism with the changes made to templars is that many of us who created templars had an expectation of what our class was. Now, we either have to adapt to the current revamped version or roll up another toon to replace it with. My warden may replace my templar, as my soloer. However, she will never replace her as my main. The templar is STILL my favorite class. I guess that I have adapted and accepted the way things are now.</p><p>If I could get SOE to implement ONE change to our class, it would be to give us one spell with a more robust damage ability. I would gladly sacrifice one of my reactive heals for that.</p>

[kenji]

<div></div><p>thanks for your feedback, and we will see our AA line soon enough, sounds lots of DPS...</p><p>although i hate to say, but AA (AP..) shouldnt be the thing fix us...i mean...man...those w/o KOS wont be able to be a good Templar... unlike other priests...</p>

[Robert2005]

<div></div><span><blockquote><hr>Elyana wrote:<div></div><p>My main is a templar, and I still love playing her. That being said, I have been also working on a warden alt. Why? Its simple really. I love to heal, but I would like to be able to do more than just healing. I would also like to be able to solo kill a monster in a comparative amount of time to others in the healing profession.</p><p>I actually had a guild mate watching me kill a level 35 heroic evil eye the other day, and he asked me why I took so long to kill it ( Iwas a 52 templar at the time). When I told him that was my fastest pace he kindly took pity on me and grouped up with me to help me work on my L&L quest so that I could actually complete it.</p><p>Thats the key to playing a templar, you see. Grouping. We are not the best fighters. Our nukes are pathetic. However we heal better than any other class out there. PERIOD. So, we sacrifice the ability to solo, or solo WELL, I should say. Our inefficiency in soloing mobs is counterbalanced by our healing diversity and power.</p><p>My only criticism with the changes made to templars is that many of us who created templars had an expectation of what our class was. Now, we either have to adapt to the current revamped version or roll up another toon to replace it with. My warden may replace my templar, as my soloer. However, she will never replace her as my main. The templar is STILL my favorite class. I guess that I have adapted and accepted the way things are now.</p><p>If I could get SOE to implement ONE change to our class, it would be to give us one spell with a more robust damage ability. I would gladly sacrifice one of my reactive heals for that.</p><hr></blockquote>Honestly -- if we had One and definitely if we had Two additional seperate heal lines -- like other priests get -- Or shorter cast times on our heals -- then I'd buy that we are slightly better healers then others.  VERY SLIGHTLY.  Which would atleast be something to compensate for the lack of anything else.  And then we could have a less angst riden discussion about the degree of difference but be happy there was some trade off.But until there is some balance -- not one priest type with uber DPS for a priest -and- the shortest cast times -and- the most heal lines (WAY out of balance) there will be annoyance from anyone that actually knows what's going on.</span><div></div><p>Message Edited by Robert2005 on <span class="date_text">02-21-2006</span><span class="time_text">08:42 AM</span></p>

[Robert2005]

Needed: 2h Staff that has stats equivalent or better to what we can get with a good 1h + symbol.  Right now the APs PUNISH some lines because they need a 2h staff.  Even if I max the stat increases in all AP lines I cannot make up for giving up the stats of a 1h + symbol -- meaning the AP line DECREASES stats and effectiveness and does not help. That is bad; very bad.<div></div>

[Stocky Broadgu]

<div></div><p>I only have a Templar as a serious character, one I've invested a lot of time and effort into.  I have played other classes, but I do enjoy my Templar the most.  That is not to say though that I wouldn't relish a few minor changes to improve the play experience.</p><p>As a single change I would like to see a bit more resiliance as a Plate healer to interrupts - I would like to feel as though those pesky blows are bonging off my armour and I get the heal off regardless.  Perhaps this could be achieved by adding a decent amount of focus-improving plate armour or symbols, without having to resort to fundamental changes to the current implementation of interrupts.  This would go some way towards improving soloing ability by extending our survivability, as a healer, not as a dealer of damage.</p><p>Please do not get me wrong, I wouldn't complain if I received stronger combative spells, however I think my top priority is being a little less interrupt-prone.</p><p> </p>

[Sokolov]

<span><blockquote><hr>Robert2005 wrote:<div></div>Honestly -- if we had One and definitely if we had Two additional seperate heal lines -- like other priests get.<span></span><hr></blockquote>Come again?</span><div></div>

[Tar~Palantir]

<div>A little lower cast time on our direct heals would be nice...</div><div> </div><div>However, i would like to see us able to use slashing or piercing weapons...for the sake of variety/stats etc.  I found maces rather boring with too often low or non-existent wisdom.</div>

[jt1369w]

<div></div><p><strong><font color="#ff0000">Hey all fellow Templars....</font></strong></p><p>For problem A: <strong>all Priest classes should be able to act as main healers in groups with an approximately equal ability, that is, that the healing power of the six priest classes should be more or less equal. </strong></p><p><strong>Here's my main concern, with the exception of templars and inquisitors, every other healing class is part healer/part some dps class. So in turn, Templars/Inquisitors should have more healing power than other classes, which is absolutly not the case. In T6 raids in gates and other instances Wardens in fact out parse Templars/Inquisitors every time. Im not talking a few healing points either, I'm talking 300,000 total healed to around 195,000 for the nearest Templar/Inquisitor. How is that even close to to healing power being equal. </strong></p><p><strong>Part of the problem is the ridiculously long cast times for Templars v. the othe classes, also Wardens big heals have HOT's connected to them. So when a main tank is hit and everyone is casting their heals eventually there is an overlap of wasted healing power with the exception of the warden HOT's connected with their large heals which heal the tank as he is being hit, while other healers are still waiting on recasts.</strong></p><p><strong>Since Templars/Inquisitors reactives do not stack, only one of them in a raid force has the ability to use  them or it becomes a burden on the power of all the Templar/Inquisitor's in the raid/group. That leaves Tempalrs with 2 direct heals and thats it. Each of which are on slower timers than the other classes. </strong></p><p>I'm not sure about most peoples reason's for playing a Templar, but I can bet dps is not one of them. I started this class when the game first came out to be a main healer in a group/raid situation. Soloing is not something I am interested in or even remotly care about, If i wanted to solo I'd be a dps/tank class. So any attempt to add dps to a healer in my opinion is a complete waste of power/time hotbar space. The main concern with all this is the healing power, if other healer classes are part some dps class and healer class they should not have equal healing power, and definatly not greater healing capabilities.</p><p>My suggestion is add some HOT's, more direct heals or a combination of both, also either make reactives stack or turn them into wards.</p><p><strong><u><font color="#ffff00">2. The Interrupts Problem with Templars and Plate Armour</font></u></strong></p><p><font color="#ffffff">This is a definate problem, unlike the other healer classes Templars/inquisitors cannot root their targets and move away to kill them, so our only option is to spend a half an hour killing a single down arrow mob, since the care bear cars wont let you fly away with aggro. (for those of you thinking invis totems, mosts mobs see invis now, so they only work a portion of the time.) </font></p><font color="#ffff00"></font><div><font color="#ffff00"><strong><u>3. The Lack of Useful Utility</u></strong></font></div><div> </div><div><font color="#ffff00"><strong><u>A. The Problem</u></strong></font></div><div> </div><div><div><strong><u>Many Templars are unhappy that Templars do not have utility spells of sufficient value and/or perceived value to solo situations, small groups, full groups and raids, compared to other priest classes. Abilities such as SoW, Evac, Root and Group Invisibility have proven considerably more appealing to groups than our relatively unexciting proc-heals ("lotto" heals) and "mezzes".</u></strong></div><div> </div><div><font color="#ffffff">Increase templars healing capabilities to be better than the rest and the useful utility crap from other classes would not be a problem, I did not make a templar to go root/mezz/sow, andy of that other non essential crap, I made a templar to be a main healer. Improve their healing capabilities...add more heals...HOT's... and save the utility/dps for the utility/dps classes.</font></div></div><p><strong><u><font color="#ffff00">4. The Problem of Linked Timers for Heals (And Watching Friends DIE!)</font></u></strong></p><p><font color="#ffffff">Add HOT's to the end of all our heals/ get rid of the crappy ractives or make em stack, and add more heals along with some HOT's. Reduce timers on our current heals would help too. </font></p><p><font color="#ffffff">If you had not figured it out by now this class was not meant to be a solo class, not meant to be DPS, but meant to be a healer. So when SOE decided to make the other partial healer classes equal in healing power to templars/inquisitors they might as well have stuck a knife in the back of all those who worked hard to level their Templars. The limited healing ability of the other classes along with their utility values gave them their value, but giving them equla healing power completely destroyed the whole purpose of being a templar imo. Also as group cures should be installed for templars/inquisitors for all types instead of just mental. that would be great. one spell group cure everything. </font></p><p>If you get the impression that doing all this would be making a templar too powerful. throw us a bone, you've kept us in the doghouse far too long, and quite frankly its getting OLD.</p><p>Well im off, enjoy friends.</p><p> </p><p>Lonern 66 Templar Antonia Bayle GC FTW</p>

[Mof]

<div></div><div>Hello Templars,</div><div>We are only good for 2 things......</div><div>1. Backup healer for groups due to the fact our reactive heals are worthless and our direct heals are on such long recast timers.</div><div>          Also we only have 2 direct heals and the cast timer is so slow on our group heal that by the time it goes off our tank is dead.</div><div>2 Raids and only for our buffs/debuffs i.e. : sancuary,Hp buffs/mit buffs, and our mit debuff. Throw our emergency bring you back to life and there you have it.</div><div> </div><div>I just spent 4 and a half hours in Halls of Faith hearing how the group i was in was fine last night with only a defiler and the tank only died a couple times on names.</div><div> </div><div>I cant do my job! I'm a Fing healer hello</div><div>I'm going to quit playing my Templar except for raids.</div><div>He has been my main since the game went live and I love him but I'm going to play a class that can do his job in a group and in a raid not just in one or the other.</div><div>It is hard enuff finding 1 healer for a group no one wants to have to find another one because the healer they have doesn't suffice. Templars Just Suck.</div><div>Please SoE fix this class it is no longer fun to play. We can no longer do our job. We are pointless!</div><div>I'm going to go level a dps atleast that way i can do what I'm supposed to!</div><div> </div><div>Uinneeda Somluvin of Befallen</div><div>LvL 70 Templar of guild Fallen</div><div> </div><p>Message Edited by Mofug on <span class="date_text">03-08-2006</span><span class="time_text">11:38 PM</span></p>

[Timaarit]

<span><blockquote>Mofug wrote:<div></div><div>Hello Templars,</div><div>We are only good for 2 things......</div><div>1. Backup healer for groups due to the fact our reactive heals are worthless and our direct heals are on such long recast timers.</div><div>          Also we only have 2 direct heals and the cast timer is so slow on our group heal that by the time it goes off our tank is dead.</div><div>2 Raids and only for our buffs/debuffs i.e. : sancuary,Hp buffs/mit buffs, and our mit debuff. Throw our emergency bring you back to life and there you have it.</div><hr></blockquote>Well my guildies say it more nicely <span>:smileyindifferent:</span>, I am invited to group whenever they need 2 healers for some final mobs. They invite me to be the main healer while the fury nukes and then with the final mob, the fury will heal too. What they dont know is that I have just my heals showing up on a chatbox and the general order of a fight is that the furies casts HoTs whenever they are not nuking. In all this means that I dont have to actually heal anything. When I dont, no one notices a thing. When I do, no one notices. If I nuke, no one notices. If I dont, no one notices.In raids, I am just a health buffer and just another healer that has to be in MT group to buff. If I didn't have the buffs, no one would want me in the MT group (that is the fate of inquisitors <span>:smileysad:</span>). Only shamans and druids are in the MT group because of their ability to heal/prevent damage, templars are there because they buff.</span><div></div>

[CoLD MeTaL]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Mofug wrote:<div></div><div>Hello Templars,</div><div>We are only good for 2 things......</div><div>1. Backup healer for groups due to the fact our reactive heals are worthless and our direct heals are on such long recast timers.</div><div>          Also we only have 2 direct heals and the cast timer is so slow on our group heal that by the time it goes off our tank is dead.</div><div>2 Raids and only for our buffs/debuffs i.e. : sancuary,Hp buffs/mit buffs, and our mit debuff. Throw our emergency bring you back to life and there you have it.</div><div> </div><div>I just spent 4 and a half hours in Halls of Faith hearing how the group i was in was fine last night with only a defiler and the tank only died a couple times on names.</div><div> </div><div>I cant do my job! I'm a Fing healer hello</div><div>I'm going to quit playing my Templar except for raids.</div><div>He has been my main since the game went live and I love him but I'm going to play a class that can do his job in a group and in a raid not just in one or the other.</div><div>It is hard enuff finding 1 healer for a group no one wants to have to find another one because the healer they have doesn't suffice. Templars Just Suck.</div><div>Please SoE fix this class it is no longer fun to play. We can no longer do our job. We are pointless!</div><div>I'm going to go level a dps atleast that way i can do what I'm supposed to!</div><div> </div><div>Uinneeda Somluvin of Befallen</div><div>LvL 70 Templar of guild Fallen</div><div> </div><p>Message Edited by Mofug on <span class="date_text">03-08-2006</span><span class="time_text">11:38 PM</span></p><hr></blockquote><p>I agree totally.  It is cast timers, and recast timers.  All the other talk is fluff.</p><p>Even a 25% reduction in timers would be a win, and since we don't have utiltiy beyond healing, it wouldn't hurt.</p><p>Glad to see I am not alone, but you won't find much compassion for your plight on these boards.</p><p>I am kind of lgad to see a 70 feel the same way about the timers.</p><p>Since I haven't been on any raids with my templar, I can only speak to number 1.</p><p> </p>

[Xaax]

<div></div><div></div><div></div><blockquote><hr>Stocky Broadgutt wrote:<div></div><p>As a single change I would like to see a bit more resiliance as a Plate healer to interrupts - I would like to feel as though those pesky blows are bonging off my armour and I get the heal off regardless.  Perhaps this could be achieved by adding a decent amount of focus-improving plate armour or symbols, without having to resort to fundamental changes to the current implementation of interrupts.  This would go some way towards improving soloing ability by extending our survivability, as a healer, not as a dealer of damage.</p><p></p><hr></blockquote><p>I dont think that focus is working nor do i belive that focus has been proven to have any benefit. SoE needs to look at focus and figure out what is the deal with it. I would also like to know what is up with fizzels on my manastone and other magic items? What in the greater wisdom of SoE were they thinking by making magic items fizzel =/</p><p>I also agree that either they need to shorten our recast on heals by 25%, unlink ALL of our direct heals or change the way our utility debuff heals work to make them useful.</p><p><span class="time_text"></span> </p><p>Message Edited by Xaax on <span class="date_text">03-09-2006</span><span class="time_text">08:40 AM</span></p>

[Psai]

<div></div><p>hello,</p><p>57 templar here.  just wanted to put my opinions/suggestions in.  i have not through the 500 pages worth of stuff, so sorry it was already said.</p><p>1. would like to see the % chance of "procing" on glory of combat increased to 10 15%.  right now mine says 5% which i think is low.  i have gone hours of exp grinding will that spell never going off.  nice spell, when it goes off.</p><p>2. would like to see an increase in healing in the mark of kings line.  would help with classes that dont get hit, which is what is needed for our reactives.  some classes do a better job at hitting, which is a good thing.  right now mine heals for 22.  i think thats low when comparing the amount of damage, both direct and spell wise, the upper mobs hit for.</p>

[Sokolov]

<span><blockquote><hr>CoLD MeTaL wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr>Mofug wrote:<div></div><div>Hello Templars,</div><div>We are only good for 2 things......</div><div>1. Backup healer for groups due to the fact our reactive heals are worthless and our direct heals are on such long recast timers.</div><div>          Also we only have 2 direct heals and the cast timer is so slow on our group heal that by the time it goes off our tank is dead.</div><div>2 Raids and only for our buffs/debuffs i.e. : sancuary,Hp buffs/mit buffs, and our mit debuff. Throw our emergency bring you back to life and there you have it.</div><div> </div><div>I just spent 4 and a half hours in Halls of Faith hearing how the group i was in was fine last night with only a defiler and the tank only died a couple times on names.</div><div> </div><div>I cant do my job! I'm a Fing healer hello</div><div>I'm going to quit playing my Templar except for raids.</div><div>He has been my main since the game went live and I love him but I'm going to play a class that can do his job in a group and in a raid not just in one or the other.</div><div>It is hard enuff finding 1 healer for a group no one wants to have to find another one because the healer they have doesn't suffice. Templars Just Suck.</div><div>Please SoE fix this class it is no longer fun to play. We can no longer do our job. We are pointless!</div><div>I'm going to go level a dps atleast that way i can do what I'm supposed to!</div><div> </div><div>Uinneeda Somluvin of Befallen</div><div>LvL 70 Templar of guild Fallen</div><div> </div><p>Message Edited by Mofug on <span class="date_text">03-08-2006</span><span class="time_text">11:38 PM</span></p><hr></blockquote><p>I agree totally.  It is cast timers, and recast timers.  All the other talk is fluff.</p><p>Even a 25% reduction in timers would be a win, and since we don't have utiltiy beyond healing, it wouldn't hurt.</p><p>Glad to see I am not alone, but you won't find much compassion for your plight on these boards.</p><p>I am kind of lgad to see a 70 feel the same way about the timers.</p><p>Since I haven't been on any raids with my templar, I can only speak to number 1.</p><p> </p><hr></blockquote>Interestingly, Defiler heal recast timers are the same as Templar's.  Which is odd when you consider the first post's statements.</span><div></div>

[Sanans]

Hello I am a level 53 templar on BB.Most of the content I do is normal grouping and a few instances within my guild.  I have found that my healing power is sufficient to do most things but this can be partially atributed to the fact that the tanks I group with are  in the mid 60s.I completely agree with the idea that if all healers are going to have an eqaull healing ability, then we need more utillity, more healing variety and strength, and more DPS. Several improvements I have come up with are as follows:1. add the mittigation proc buff back into our group and single target reactives, or make a mitigation buff part of the spell     this would increase our effectiveness on avoidance tanks and it would fit the concept of increasing our allies defence2. also along this line modify our Aegis line, which is currently a magic ward.  It could be changed into a temporary buff that drastically increases the targets resistance to all types of damage, or maybe adjust the ward so that it blocks all damage types, not just elemental and mental3.  Increase the heal numbers on our mark line into the 100s, and increase its divine debuff a bit more, and increase the proc % on the involuntary line4. decrease the cast time, and recast time of our group reactives, and both our small and large heals   (particullary with the small heal, it should be larger, and almost instantaneous, .5 sec cast time or something to use on mages who are getting hammered)5. add a regen component or a mitigation buff to our large dirrect heal to help fill in the gap while it is refreshing6. give us a greater number of direct heals not on the same cast time or allow our reactives to stack with another cleric so that we are more usefull on raids7. decrease the cast time on prostrate to be similar to the sign line, so that we can acctually interupt enemies with the spell8. add a reactive stun proc on our protectorate spell, so that while soloing we won't get hit and interupted as much, or maybe some sort of divine damage proc, like the       one we used to have on our group courage buff9. give us back our parry ability, even if it is reduced, and also the abitlity to use better shields       since our heavy armor means that we are designed to take hits and be in the fray it would only make sense that we would have the ability to block enemy attacks       with our weapon, and use better shields.  This change should help to reduce our interupt problem by boosting our avoidance10. change divine arbitration so that it equalizes the group's % of hp, not just the raw numbers       I have had not had experience with this, but it sounds like it isn't useful in its current form11. decrease our nukes casting time and boost the damage a little, so that they are interupted less often and can cause more damage with them12. boost reverences heal percentage, into the 200s at adept level       I was blessed enough to get a master 1 of this spell which heals for 240%, but not everyone has it at this level, and I am sure that lower levels are not nearly as       effectiveThese changes should boost our solo ability by increasing our DPS through decreased cast timers and more divine debuffs and damage, and by increasing our avoidance, so that we get hit less often.Also it these changes would help our raid ability by making clerics better able to coroporate in healing and boosting the MTs mitigation is always a good thing, which would make us more vaualble on raids.Finnaly these changes would improve our group abilities by making it easier to stun and control enemies with a combination of prostrate and the sign line, by allowing us to boost the tanks mittigation through our reactives and the Aegis line, and our single target heals will become stonger so that we are better able to fill in the gaps left by our reactives.  In the future I hope that  the cleric class will have a great number of ways to heal our allies, which will help make us the healers that we should be able to be.<div></div>

[Mof]

<div><hr></div><div>Hello I am a level 53 templar on BB.Most of the content I do is normal grouping and a few instances within my guild.  I have found that my healing power is sufficient to do most things but this can be partially atributed to the fact that the tanks I group with are  in the mid 60s.I completely agree with the idea that if all healers are going to have an eqaull healing ability, then we need more utillity, more healing variety and strength, and more DPS. Several improvements I have come up with are as follows:1. add the mittigation proc buff back into our group and single target reactives, or make a mitigation buff part of the spell     this would increase our effectiveness on avoidance tanks and it would fit the concept of increasing our allies defence2. also along this line modify our Aegis line, which is currently a magic ward.  It could be changed into a temporary buff that drastically increases the targets resistance to all types of damage, or maybe adjust the ward so that it blocks all damage types, not just elemental and mental3.  Increase the heal numbers on our mark line into the 100s, and increase its divine debuff a bit more, and increase the proc % on the involuntary line4. decrease the cast time, and recast time of our group reactives, and both our small and large heals   (particullary with the small heal, it should be larger, and almost instantaneous, .5 sec cast time or something to use on mages who are getting hammered)5. add a regen component or a mitigation buff to our large dirrect heal to help fill in the gap while it is refreshing6. give us a greater number of direct heals not on the same cast time or allow our reactives to stack with another cleric so that we are more usefull on raids7. decrease the cast time on prostrate to be similar to the sign line, so that we can acctually interupt enemies with the spell8. add a reactive stun proc on our protectorate spell, so that while soloing we won't get hit and interupted as much, or maybe some sort of divine damage proc, like the       one we used to have on our group courage buff9. give us back our parry ability, even if it is reduced, and also the abitlity to use better shields       since our heavy armor means that we are designed to take hits and be in the fray it would only make sense that we would have the ability to block enemy attacks       with our weapon, and use better shields.  This change should help to reduce our interupt problem by boosting our avoidance10. change divine arbitration so that it equalizes the group's % of hp, not just the raw numbers       I have had not had experience with this, but it sounds like it isn't useful in its current form11. decrease our nukes casting time and boost the damage a little, so that they are interupted less often and can cause more damage with them12. boost reverences heal percentage, into the 200s at adept level       I was blessed enough to get a master 1 of this spell which heals for 240%, but not everyone has it at this level, and I am sure that lower levels are not nearly as       effectiveThese changes should boost our solo ability by increasing our DPS through decreased cast timers and more divine debuffs and damage, and by increasing our avoidance, so that we get hit less often.Also it these changes would help our raid ability by making clerics better able to coroporate in healing and boosting the MTs mitigation is always a good thing, which would make us more vaualble on raids.Finnaly these changes would improve our group abilities by making it easier to stun and control enemies with a combination of prostrate and the sign line, by allowing us to boost the tanks mittigation through our reactives and the Aegis line, and our single target heals will become stonger so that we are better able to fill in the gaps left by our reactives.  In the future I hope that  the cleric class will have a great number of ways to heal our allies, which will help make us the healers that we should be able to be.<hr></div><div> </div><div>WoW dude that would make us gods!!!!!!!!</div><div>All i want is our freeking reactives to be effective altho the Mark Line heal increas would be realy cool..... we just are not as effective healers as the other healer classes</div><div>I don't want utility</div><div>I don't DPS</div><div> </div><div>I JUST WANA BE ABLE TO HEAL!!!!SOE FIX THE HEALING! </div>

[k8ebe]

im just honestly displease with the lack of DPS that my templar does. Its sad when I cant even really solo because of my lack of ability to defend myself.Also, we get no 'cool spells'. we cant transform into anything like mystics and furys, we dont get pets. wheres the fun?Lostariel- 38 TemplarH.A.W.K.S.Everfrost<div></div>

[Elend]

What do we need?  If healing is working as intended.... i think we need a new combat revamp ;PMaybe one where they made hots/reactives/wards the end all, be all for CERTAIN(pertaining to each type of heal) encounters (I think at the same time, this would also create more diversity for tanks, althought I really dont think they have it so bad). THAT would increse diversity between us since we are pretty much the same for healing now. Otherwise, I dont really think we need anything. Our healing is on par with others, but I really dont find added DPS to our class to be a good trade. If our DPS did get buffed, I probly still would not solo.<div></div>

[Shinkc]

<div><blockquote><hr>k8ebear wrote:Also, we get no 'cool spells'. we cant transform into anything like mystics and furys, we dont get pets. wheres the fun?<div></div><hr></blockquote>You get an acolyte at level 45, and faith respect is kind of cool at level 20.</div>

[Beldin1379]

I deeply saddens me coming back after months of being away from my Templar that these issues are still not addressed. I started playing another character because of this. It probably won't be long until I leave EQ2 and all SoE products because of the lack of fixes in their games like this. This was probably the main reason I left EQ2 and will contribute heavily if/when I leave again.

[Caethre]

<P>OOC.</P> <P>Just to let you know, there has been some movement and more is likely on the way.</P> <P>- At LU21, the damage spells of Templars (and indeed, of Inquisitors, Mystics and Defilers too) were given an approximately 15% lift. This has certainly helped alleviate some of the DPS deficiency.</P> <P>- As part of KOS release, some new Alternate Abilities have been added, some of which give paths for Templars to further increase their DPS. There are as yet no published cross-class comparative parses looking into class balance since KOS release taking these new AP skills into account, but early reports from quite a lot of Templars are suggesting these might be effective.</P> <P>- Possibly just as important, SOE have said that they intend to look into making mitigation affect the chance of spell interruption, and depending on how this is actually implemented, this might help Templars as well</P> <P>I am certainly not saying all our problems have gone away, certainly not. However, I will say, things have finally gotten better, and those who have been following my reports and feedback over the last half a year and more, know I'm not one of those who would say that lightly. The worst is certainly over. Indeed, I have recently been playing my Templar more than my Fury, and considering how unhappy I was a few months ago with the Templar class situation, that is certainly saying something.</P> <P>None of this might change your mind, but perhaps you might want to just take another look. Good luck, whatever you decide.</P> <P>Felishanna.</P> <P> </P>

[Shinkc]

I'm only a mid-40's Templar myself, but I'll agree with Caethre.   Solo'ing is definitely more enjoyable, although still hardly fun.  It's not fun for any class that I've played though.  I think people focus too much on what we don't do instead of what we do (you thought I was going to say do do, didn't you?).One thing that would be nice would be a type of offensive or defensive stance option (naming just as an example).  Have offensive stance such that our damage spells do more damage (but still not any better than other priests), but our healing and buffing spells are weakened and defensive stance such that our healing and buffing spells are just as they are now, but our damage spells go back even to pre-LU21.  And make it a long process to change between the two - 30 seconds or so.The idea being that Templars are given stronger solo abilities or damage dealing abilities in groups where they are not the primary healer, but still able to be the same as we are in normal grouping situations where we are the primary healer.Even with no changes, I rarely feel useless as a Templar.  Even if I'm the second templar and lower level in a group, my debuffs and buffs don't make me totally useless.  Instead of doing a group buff, I do 5xRedoubt's since my group buff would get overwritten anyway.  I also become responsible for debuffs, stuns, and heroic opportunities.  Granted, none of this would make me more beneficial than a DPS class, but my ability to heal and little mez do come in handy in some of the tougher zones.<div></div>

[CoLD MeTaL]

I still can bore a mob to death.ANDI can still out dps a 'bucket of fish'.15% increase was bone, it does help.That being said, it should have been at least a 50% increase to our damage spells. And we would still be less than 1/3rd the damage of fury's.Recast timers. Recast timers. Recast timers. Recast timers. Recast timers. Recast timers. Recast timers. Recast timers. Recast timers. Recast timers. Recast timers. Recast timers. Recast timers. Recast timers. Recast timers. Recast timers. Recast timers. Recast timers. Recast timers. Recast timers. Recast timers. Recast timers. Recast timers. Recast timers. Recast timers. Casting Times. Casting Times. Casting Times. Casting Times. Casting Times. Casting Times. Casting Times. Casting Times. Casting Times. Casting Times. Casting Times. Casting Times. Casting Times. Casting Times. Casting Times. Casting Times. Casting Times. Casting Times. Casting Times. Casting Times. Casting Times. Casting Times. Casting Times. Casting Times. Casting Times. Casting Times. Casting Times. Casting Times. Casting Times. As a level 50 Templar now, I was waiting on the druzaic shrine to pop in TS, and I think I will go out a kill some siren for L&L pieces and autoupdates. level 22... (triple arrow down)solo mobs. Hit me (weird) in full cobalt. And interrupt me regularly. AND It takes multiple HO's to kill one. I should be able to 1 shot these critters at 50, or at a very minimum 1 HO. I get more damage out of the "heirophants crook" proc, than my HO.

[Olivet]

While this is a very good thread, and the input seems very positive, I am surprised to see so many concerns over the Templar class.  I play a lvl 70 Templar and I do think, as with plate tanks, its very much to do in the equipment you use.  For example:To get your avoidance up, use a shield.  The enameled shield of the witchdoctor (or something like that) gives me around 20% avoidance.  I find this plenty to give me enough time to get the spells off while udner heavy attack.As for the DPS, again comparing to tanks, they have a defence and an offensive stance.  Templars can essentially do the same by enabling Yaulp (for double tap) and swopping the shield / one hander for a nice 2 hander weapon.  Doomcrusher works well <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  Not to mention the critical strike AA skill which improves crits by something like 28%.Mitigation wise, we are quite spoilt with the ability to wear full plate.  I can get my mitigation up to around 3800 / 20% avoidance, which may not be great, but its certainly a lot better than the alternative priest classes bar Inquisitors.Healing power, especially in Raids, I feel Templars are unmatched IF in the main group. I've been keeping an eye on stats, and typically I heal around double what the furies / wardens do.  OK true enough they have other GREAT skills like urchin which will impact greatly on these stats, but what I'm saying is healing wise, we certainly dont fall short.  Templars also shine in small groups of 6.  It is quite easy to solo heal in a zone like Halls of Fate IF you have a good tank with some good gear.  (Dont try it with a Guardian that has less mitigation than yourself..I've tried, it doesnt work <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> )As for casting times - We have a AA line that reduces all casting times by 10%, and ofcourse the AA skill that reduces it by 100% and recovery times by 33% for 24 seconds in those sticky situations.While we have no "special abilities" like evac or invis, totems can be baught for invis or you can just train <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  We do have Sanctuary which in some instances, you just dont want to be without. (Cazel comes to mind).All in all I am happy with the Templar Class.  I feel that, even though it takes a lifetime to kill something, we CAN do it.  I am not sure what other level 70 priests can take on, but I can quite happily solo blue heroics. (Yes yes, I know you mages are laughing, but atleast we dont get 1 tapped <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />Someone mentioned about divine arbritration being no good.  I've found it very useful to keep the mages / scouts alive when they take aggro.  Ofcourse usually the tanks health gets halved but it does usually fully heal any mage or scout, or even 2 mages/ scouts.As for our debuffs, we can debuff physical mit for over 1000.. which has a great impact when you have around 10 scouts/tanks beating on the raid mob.What I would improve on templars:- 45 second recast on Pet Hammer (to solve dps problem - and yes it really is a problem when doing writs)- Slightly reduce casting time on group reactive. (many times that spell lasts for around 1.5 seconds on raid mobs then I have nothing but emergency spells to cast)- Remove the stun/stifle effect from when your lvl 50/70 reactive is cast. (Its such a great spell but hardly use it because the solo/group reactives stacked heals for more than that spell.  While that can be stacked too, im stifled to recast single/group when that expires leaving me to cancel the spell)Thats my views anyhow <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><div></div>

[Sokolov]

<div><blockquote><hr>Olivetti wrote:As for casting times - We have a AA line that reduces all casting times by 10%, and ofcourse the AA skill that reduces it by 100% and recovery times by 33% for 24 seconds in those sticky situations.<div></div><hr></blockquote>To clarify, these abilities affect the PLAYER's timers for casting, recast and recovery, and do not directly affect any spell (typically, they make the player do those things faster) - the distinction is vital to how the skills actually work.</div>

[Dillin]

<DIV>I don't think there is anything wrong with the Templar class anymore.  We were never meant to be the fast casting healers.  We cast slow but BIG heals.  And IMO we're pretty power efficient too.  Only tweak I would make is to take a proc or 2 off of reactives and put those "lost" ticks back into the remaining procs and have them last longer.  Or, have the remaining procs dump into their target when the spell expires.  Other then that, I think we're fairly balanced.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>How many of ya'll ever thought you would hear me say that???</DIV>

[Olivet]

great we got nerfed again...divine recovery HALVED in effeciency, and shield of the witchdoctor taken from 1092protection to 392.. lowering my avoidance by about 10%, which in return make soloing 10% more painful... gee.. thanks?I love it how the devs make u spend weeks accuiring gear and then make it useless in the next update.<div></div>

[Dillin]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Olivetti wrote:<BR>great we got nerfed again...divine recovery HALVED in effeciency, and shield of the witchdoctor taken from 1092protection to 392.. lowering my avoidance by about 10%, which in return make soloing 10% more painful... gee.. thanks?<BR><BR>I love it how the devs make u spend weeks accuiring gear and then make it useless in the next update.<BR><BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Divine recovery is a display thing not at actual reduction (It's capped to 50%).  There are other posts in these forums talking about it.  And with the shield, did you honestly think that a shield a priest can use that has almost the same avoidance gain as a Tower shield wasn't a problem?  IMO, they fixed the shield to the way it was intended. 

[Hopefulne]

<DIV>yeah divine recovery was always 50% only now has it been changed to say it is.   AS for the enameled buckler of the witchdoctor  it is usable by all priests i believe and counts as a kite shield despite the name-so no use for the AA mez</DIV>

[BozEuge]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Cybst0rm wrote:<BR> <BR><BR>Divine recovery is a display thing not at actual reduction (It's capped to 50%).  There are other posts in these forums talking about it.  And with the shield, did you honestly think that a shield a priest can use that has almost the same avoidance gain as a Tower shield wasn't a problem?  IMO, they fixed the shield to the way it was intended. <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>wrong</P> <P>before the change, casting time of dire interecession under Divine recovery was 2.5 sec</P> <P>now, it's around 3s</P> <P> </P>

[Olivet]

<div></div><div></div><p>Message Edited by Olivetti on <span class=date_text>06-12-2006</span> <span class=time_text>01:36 PM</span>

[rvbarton]

Would it be possible to address the PVP side of a templar?  I currently play on a PVP server, and I must admit, when even a Grenn PVP opponent approaches, I have to run.  I cannot hold my own against a Green PVP mob, so needless to say, I have no chance against anything PVP.  I simply run.  I would suggest, possibly a short term invulnerability spell, that progresses with level, and a progressive root spell also.  Anything for a bit more defense.  The DPS issue is still pertinent, but I'd rather have a survivability enhancement in the form of Defense (Root, invulnerability, AE stun...)  anything.<div></div>

[Spiritunico]

<P>I wonder if anyone official even reads this thread these days?</P> <P>Anyhow one thing I do notice alot is that as a caster class that does not root but wears heavy armour we appear to lack interruption protection.</P> <P>The fight starts, the mob rushes up, the mob keeps hitting me, my spells keep getting interupted.</P> <P>As melee casters I feel we need more protection against interruption, or shorter cast times, one or the other.</P> <P> </P> <P>Another issue is our un-fun 'fun' spells that although not essential to gameplay do have a bad effect on the look and feel of the class. These sad spells are generally not fun and appear to lack imagination on the part of the developer who came up with them. Please can we have some fun spells that really are fun.</P>

[Shinkc]

Our fun spells aren't so bad.  I still use Faith Respect to make people bow to me, summon Holy Symbols and brandish them at people (they look like a tulip), Holy Aura to glow blue, and Holy Acolyte whenever I feel like having a dumb pet.  In fact, the only truly "bad" fun spell we have is detect evil since it doesn't take a spell to tell me that a Necromancer is evil <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><div></div>

[Eriol]

<blockquote><hr>Spiritunicorn wrote:<P>Anyhow one thing I do notice alot is that as a caster class that does not root but wears heavy armour we appear to lack interruption protection.</P><P>The fight starts, the mob rushes up, the mob keeps hitting me, my spells keep getting interupted.</P><P>As melee casters I feel we need more protection against interruption, or shorter cast times, one or the other.</P><hr></blockquote>At the Fan Faire in one of the panels, they mentioned that armour rating (or class (plate, chain, etc)... can't remember) would affect interrupts (so plate would get interrupted less often).Anybody have any other info about that, or if something's been done, etc? Hazy memory here.

[Shinkc]

Are interrupts really that big of an issue?  I'm level 52 and have never had it be a problem even though my gear is pretty meager.  When solo'ing a group encounter, I get interrupted a bit, but it's not that big of an issue.  The biggest issue I have is that it's so terribly time consuming to do writs - so bad that I don't even do them at all anymore.<div></div>

[Spiritunico]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Shinkceb wrote:<BR>Are interrupts really that big of an issue?  I'm level 52 and have never had it be a problem even though my gear is pretty meager.  When solo'ing a group encounter, I get interrupted a bit, but it's not that big of an issue.  The biggest issue I have is that it's so terribly time consuming to do writs - so bad that I don't even do them at all anymore.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Well... compared to my warden, my templar is getting interupted alot when I'm soloing.</P> <P>The 3 second spells are the worse, its like waiting forever to get those off and getting three or four interrupted in a row is very unfun. Particularly when you really need that heal spell to land before you die.</P>

[Dillin]

<DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Shinkceb wrote:<BR>Are interrupts really that big of an issue?  I'm level 52 and have never had it be a problem even though my gear is pretty meager.  When solo'ing a group encounter, I get interrupted a bit, but it's not that big of an issue.  The biggest issue I have is that it's so terribly time consuming to do writs - so bad that I don't even do them at all anymore.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>For the older folks, it became noticable after one of the LUs where we lost avoidance (Think it was LU13?).  Appearently we can't pray and move at the same time.  I am assuming you came in after the change so you've never noticed a difference.  Before, getting interupted was something that happened like once an hour or so during play.  Now it's a few times a fight.  Couple that with Fizzle rates and you have a very annoying situation.  <BR></DIV>

[rvbarton]

Fizzles and interrupts are killing me now..  One out of four spells are interrupted, and I'd bet  one out of three are fizzled.<div></div>

[Caethre]

<DIV>OOC.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Greetings fellow Templars!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>We have as a community now had plenty of time to look at and play our class in the post-LU#21 Norrath, and it is time now to relaunch the class balance issues list and discussion in the light of the Norrath as it is today!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This balance thread will cover all styles of play, including solo Templars, small groups, full groups, and raids. It can contain comments on spells, melee, items or AP skills. It will also accept contributions from all levels of play. However, it is specifically targetted for Templar players, looking it things from the perspective of those Templar players.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This thread is not specifically for listing *bugs* (there is another stickied thread covering that) - this is for balance issues vs content and vs other classes.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG>So, if you have any feedback on our class, good or bad, here is the place to put it!</STRONG></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><EM>Please be constructive. Also, please to do criticise the feedback of others, or even comment on it unless they ask for such, whether you agree with it or not, simply state your own feedback on the class. </EM></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>When this thread gets going (if it does!), I will coalesce the most recurring issues into a succinct list of issues that our community might have. I will use the data it gathers to renew and refresh our stickied thread for Templar balance issues (which I have just renamed to make that more clear).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Felishanna.</DIV>

[Caethre]

<DIV>OOC.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I will kick this off myself.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>In the "dark days" for our class, especially for solo and small group players, between LU#13 and LU#20/21, I had many things to say about how our class was lacking compared to the other healer classes. However, from a personal point of view, I would state that my observation now, that some of the worst problems have been somewhat alleviated, and that our class now is much closer to holding its own in all playstyles than it once was.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>That is not to be taken as meaning I believe everything is perfect (well, nothing ever will be perfect, but you get my point). So, here is an opening list of outstanding issues I see our class having :-</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff6600><STRONG>1. The Interrupts Problem.</STRONG></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff6600></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff6600>This remains an issue for us (and for some other classes too). It is especially an issue when facing an encounter with multiple opponents. This issue is already presented in the Class Balance thread.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff6600>Apparently there were reports from some who attended the SOE Summit, that there was going to be a look at implementing something that links interrupt rate to armour type, but we have had no update on this as yet.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff6600></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff6600><STRONG>2. Fizzles.</STRONG></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff6600></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff6600>There is still an issue with excessive fizzles (and runs of fizzles) when casting some beneficial spells, that seems out of balance.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff6600></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff6600><STRONG>3. Linked Heal Timers.</STRONG></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff6600></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff6600>I am hearing some are still saying this is a major problem for them, as listed in the Class Balance thread already, so put this here as a placeholder for anyone who might still be finding this an issue.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>That will do for the moment, I may well add to this over time.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Felishanna.</DIV>

[110euph]

<DIV>I am also having excessive trouble with fizzles.  I've taken to, when I NEED to cast a spell, spamming the key 8 or 10 times in rapid succession to be certain that the spell fires.  Since there is no recast delay on a fizzle, this works well, but I cannot queue up a beneficial spell which MUST be cast right away with any degree of confidence.  I've played Ranger to 67 and Illusionist to 62 and have not noticed this at all... even with the Illusionist.  I understand that the ranger doesn't fizzle combat arts, but the illusionist doesn't have anywhere near the problems with fizzling. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The linked heal timer isn't a big issue with me; Guardians only have 2 direct taunt abilities, we only have 3 direct heal abilities.  At my level I've got the reactive, Restoration, and the one from Splitpaw.  There is also Involuntary Healer and Mark of Princes, but those are indirect heals.  My biggest issue, and maybe it's only a matter of gear, is that my power pool is very small.  You can check the link at the bottom of the page to see my gear (the picture is out of date, but the gear should be right) and stats - I haven't spent much money on this character, either, so maybe that's an issue.  But I always seem to be nearly out of power after every long fight, because there's nowhere can stop and take a break from casting.  I'm constantly tossing out a chain of 8 or 9 spells every fight... which is GREAT, because I'm busy, but I seem to run out of mana quickly too.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Anyway, there's my 2cp.  Thanks for starting this thread.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>V</DIV>

[Nari]

Even though the issue has been raised a million times, I would like to stop getting short changed with my reactives.  If the reactive expires without being used up, give my target something.  I paid good power for that healing.

[Ivorlucio]

<DIV>I think the biggest disadvantage we have is our cast times.  It seems like every time I group with a Fury or Warden I am always beat to the punch on HOs.  The group heals are especially bad; I don't know what they are casting, but it seems to be a 2 or 3 second cast on their group HoT and the MT has time to knit a scarf while I'm trying to get off Intercession.  :smileymad:</DIV>

[Timaarit]

Wards blocking hits should not use procs from reactives. Or if this is working as intended, at least make the proc heal instead of just vanishing. <div></div>

[-Priorit]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Caethre wrote:<BR> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff6600><STRONG>1. The Interrupts Problem.</STRONG></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff6600></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff6600>This remains an issue for us (and for some other classes too). It is especially an issue when facing an encounter with multiple opponents. This issue is already presented in the Class Balance thread.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff6600>Apparently there were reports from some who attended the SOE Summit, that there was going to be a look at implementing something that links interrupt rate to armour type, but we have had no update on this as yet.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I think this is the biggest issue out there. As templars, we are fortuanate enough to receive plate armor. That is great and all, where we can break 4k physical mitigation no sweat, but what good is it?</P> <P>Sure we can take a beating well, but we lack avoidance; other healers in leather or chain recieve significantly more. To point out the obvious, we can drop down an armor class for more avoidance, but that would take away the advantage we are given. In my opinion, the issue isnt so much we lack avoidance, but we lack focus. Furies, for example, with their high avoidance, ALSO get a focus buff.</P> <P>I think a self focus buff should be added. This would keep templars with low avoidance, but will be able to actually cast a spell longer then 2 seconds.</P> <P>Edit: id like to add that this buff should not require any concentration points =)</P> <P>Group PvP as a templar is HORRIBLE unless you are packin a back up healer, or multiple taunters.</P><p>Message Edited by -Priority- on <span class=date_text>07-09-2006</span> <span class=time_text>05:03 PM</span>

[Cowdenic]

<P>My most glaring issue is in raiding situations when dealing with AE's (which even trash mobs are having and hitting harder with) my group reactive just does not compare in real terms with a Group Regen. </P> <P>For example An AE goes off that hits for say 2 or 3 k my group reactive will absorb roughly 4 to 500 points of this AE per person (and have 3 charges left) while A group regen cast will heal the same 4 to 500 every 2 secs per person for upwards of 1500 HPS for all 8 ticks of their Group HOT. So with one spell, the Group HOT was able to completely heal the AE that was cast after the fact, while my Templar could not completely heal the group for well over 25 seconds. (and at the cost of a whole lot more power).</P> <P>There is also the fact that our heals take entirely too long to cast. We are the most likely to be interrupted healers and we have by far the longest cast times. If they can do nothing else to fix the situation, lower our cast times to 1.5 and 2 sec cast times, and increase our recasts by the time you deducted from the cast timers. I mean for real 5 second cast times? That needs to be fixed. I bet you a group Hot doesnt take 5 seconds to cast and I KNOW for a fact it has easily the capability of healing a WHOLE lot more then a group reactive.</P> <P>There is another solution if you wanted to make it more equitable..... but it will be laughed at. Have it so that the group reactive can proc an equal number of times to the Group Hots, so if a group hot heals say 7 times 6 people in the group, a group reactive can proc up to 42 times per cast. I mean that would equalize the Group hot with the group Reactive, and to make it fair make the group ward be able to ward say 80% of that amount with some leak through. </P>

[Supernova17]

An alternative would be to give group reactives more charges or more hp healed per charge using the current number or lower the cast / recast times. Dire Intercession's (and all the previous versions) cast time is my only gripe, 5 seconds is a long time for how ineffective the group reactive really is. Sure it sounds good in theory, protecting the group with reactive charges, but we just end up using the spell to channel 9 more charges that stack with Glorious Intercession (and all previous versions) onto a single target. <div></div>

[Raistlan]

<div></div><div><blockquote><hr>Ivorlucious wrote:<div>I think the biggest disadvantage we have is our cast times.  It seems like every time I group with a Fury or Warden I am always beat to the punch on HOs.  The group heals are especially bad; I don't know what they are casting, but it seems to be a 2 or 3 second cast on their group HoT and the MT has time to knit a scarf while I'm trying to get off Intercession.  :smileymad:</div><hr></blockquote>I hope you understand that any reduction in the cast times of our spells will also result in a decreased heal or damage value of those spells.  Only one I would argue for a lower cast time with no reduction in power would be, as Descartin mentioned, Dire Intercession - 3.5 to 4 seconds cast time please.Anyway, my 2 problems - Fizzles - I'm not sure what the hell is going on here but my fizzles appear to be getting worse, gone from practically never fizzling to sometimes fizzling 3 times in a row, drives me nuts.Interrupts - I honestly don't have that much problem with this, I don't seem to be interrupted overly much myself, however I feel thats only because I've been lucky, and I know plenty of clerics who do have problems with excessive interrupts.</div><p>Message Edited by Raistlan on <span class=date_text>07-10-2006</span> <span class=time_text>10:08 PM</span>

[SenorPhrog]

The interrupts need to be clarified as a solo issue.  While I respect the plight of soloers and do solo writs, etc myself, I'd hope they'd correct some of the other issues that effect the entire Templar population.  It'd be nice to have it looked at though.The fizzle rate, has anyone ran any numbers on that?  Is it a huge issue?  In regards to fizzling, I find it odd that my weapon AA abilities never fizzle to my knowledge, but the large AA abilities will on a rare occasion.  I'd like to understand that better.Linked heal timers, I'd hope still aren't an issue.  I do have fairly upgraded heals, so maybe that is why I don't have a problem, but I'm interested in seeing more.I also agree with 3devious.   I'm annoyed that other things similar to reactives expire into a heal, but a reactive doesn't.  I don't see how this breaks any balance, and would like to see it initiated.<div></div>

[LowfyrWildforge]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> The interrupts need to be clarified as a solo issue.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Not true, interrupts are a universal problem.  The whole POINT of the templar class is that we can heal while getting beat on.  That's the whole "plate wearing" thing, otherwise, we could just wear grass skirts and vests of live kittens.  Yes, you may not ever get aggro in your group.  But if you do, or get adds, that's where the templar is supposed to be good.  Otherwise we're just druids with bad DPS.</P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P> </P>

[SenorPhrog]

<div><blockquote><hr>LowfyrWildforge wrote:<div></div> <blockquote> <hr> The interrupts need to be clarified as a solo issue. <hr> </blockquote> <p>Not true, interrupts are a universal problem.  The whole POINT of the templar class is that we can heal while getting beat on.  That's the whole "plate wearing" thing, otherwise, we could just wear grass skirts and vests of live kittens.  Yes, you may not ever get aggro in your group.  But if you do, or get adds, that's where the templar is supposed to be good.  Otherwise we're just druids with bad DPS.</p> <hr></blockquote>*shrug* I disagree completely.  If you get aggro, you have a hate reducer.  If your tank or chanter is doing their job correctly, you shouldn't have a problem.  If you do, you have a 20 second mez yourself.   I also disagree with you on the "point of Templar."   I see the point of plate armour increasing my survivability versus other healers.  It works imo.</div>

[Kizee]

<DIV>Fizzle rate drives me nuts. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>SOE expects the healer to cure traumas in split second times or the tank gets 1 shot however, it doesn't help any that you fizzle 1 to 4 times in a row.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Pisses me off when they tank drops because I flzzle so much. It makes me look like I am not doing my job curing when that happens.</DIV>

[Caethre]

<DIV>OOC.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Radar and Lowfyr, I will list the interrupts issue as a "primarily solo" issue, as a compromise, as I see where both of you are coming from. The key thing is, that it will be listed. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Gastrob]

<P>Interupts and fizzles are the two big issues I see with our class.</P> <P>Fizzles seem to be happening way to much lately--to the point that that last couple of times I was in instances in groups in KOS, I had a tank die on me because my heals kept fizzling out rather than bolstering the tank's health :smileysad:</P> <P>Interrupts are messed up too. I have noticed that I seem to be loosing a lot of spells now when I get hit. I thought the whole idea of plate for our class was that we could take a shot or two and still do our job?</P> <P> </P> <P>Grimmsdahl, Level 67 Templer Nektulous server</P>

[Nari]

<DIV>I also agree that fizzles are annoying.  I have been on the beneficial side of the random number generator with that lately.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I still get mad when I fizzle the essence items that conjurors give you...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>...3 times in a row.</DIV>

[quetzaqotl]

<BLOCKQUOTE> <BLOCKQUOTE> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I think this is the biggest issue out there. As templars, we are fortuanate enough to receive plate armor. That is great and all, where we can break 4k physical mitigation no sweat, but what good is it?</P> <P>Sure we can take a beating well, but we lack avoidance; other healers in leather or chain recieve significantly more. To point out the obvious, we can drop down an armor class for more avoidance, but that would take away the advantage we are given. In my opinion, the issue isnt so much we lack avoidance, but we lack focus.<STRONG> Furies, for example, with their high avoidance, ALSO</STRONG> get a focus buff.</P> <P>I think a self focus buff should be added. This would keep templars with low avoidance, but will be able to actually cast a spell longer then 2 seconds.</P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Well my high avoidance isn that high in my full fabled suit my avoidance is around 31% and my mitgation around 2900, also furies DO NOT get a focus buff thats wardens they get a focus+mitig buff on their wolf form furies get sta and agi which accounts for 300 hp and 3% avoidance on our lion buff (so thats not that hot).</P> <P>Just posted this as clarification, so please post facts.<BR></P><p>Message Edited by quetzaqotl on <span class=date_text>07-10-2006</span> <span class=time_text>09:19 PM</span>

[Dillin]

<DIV>The amount of interupts is STILL a HUGE issue for solo'ing.  THere seems to be no rhym or reason to it either.  I've had a 20 something proc interupt a cure AFTER the fight was over.  I don't think it's a focus issue, I think there needs to be minimum amount of damage needed to interupt or there is something REALLY screwy with plate armor that is effecting Clerics.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Much like Caethre, I have taken up playing another healer class.  I have a Warden.  The difference in playstyle is HUGE.  The Warden is rarely interupted, HoTs are a breeze to use and highly effective.  The difference is literally night and day.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So SOE wants ideas to fix things so here is my idea.  Our biggest downfall is healing "burst" damage, which is amazingly rampant in T7 and SOE's bright idea of making it super easy for MT and scout classes to easily hit 60%+ avoidance.  Great!  half of the classes in the game get hit less.  For most healer classes this is great news.  For Templars it's a nightmare.  Without getting hit we have to rely on direct heals to augment the large amounts of damage coming through.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So, I have been thinking about this for a few days.  We all know SOE isn't going to give us more procs and honestly, is that going to change anything?  Nope.  SOE also isn't going to increase the amount of healing because all the other healer classes will cry foul.  So here is my idea, we see this with a lot of other classes where damage inflicted is based on a percentage of remaining health.  Why couldn't we get something like that but in reverse.  When a "big" hit comes in and does, for example, more then 20% of someone's health, our reactive procs twice.  The spell itself keeps it's original heal amount and proc amount, but it's a more dynamic system for things like those big AOEs from the Gazers in DT.  We could even go farther and have a stipend that if the damage is more then 50% it uses 3 charges.  I think that would keep the Templar class balanced with the other healers and give us back a little bit of the edge the other healer classes enjoy.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>edit- I wanted to put something in about a dual I recently had with a Zerker friend of mine... the amount of interupts with Yaulp on was astounding.  It was almost impossible for me to cast anything.</DIV><p>Message Edited by Cybst0rm on <span class=date_text>07-10-2006</span> <span class=time_text>05:28 PM</span>

[Eriol]

<blockquote><hr>Cybst0rm wrote:So, I have been thinking about this for a few days.  We all know SOE isn't going to give us more procs and honestly, is that going to change anything?  Nope.  SOE also isn't going to increase the amount of healing because all the other healer classes will cry foul.  So here is my idea, we see this with a lot of other classes where damage inflicted is based on a percentage of remaining health.  Why couldn't we get something like that but in reverse.  When a "big" hit comes in and does, for example, more then 20% of someone's health, our reactive procs twice.  The spell itself keeps it's original heal amount and proc amount, but it's a more dynamic system for things like those big AOEs from the Gazers in DT.  We could even go farther and have a stipend that if the damage is more then 50% it uses 3 charges.  I think that would keep the Templar class balanced with the other healers and give us back a little bit of the edge the other healer classes enjoy.<hr></blockquote>I'd suggest an entire thread discussing that, as it's a very interesting idea IMO, and this thread could get de-railed purely on the grounds of that one.A VERY interesting idea, but one that shouldn't be hampered by the restrictions of this thread (though for other topics, the restrictions are good IMO).

[SenorPhrog]

That is an intruiging idea, but I can see problems with it, and yeah...I'd start a new thread.  Maybe I'm missing something on the burst damage, but thats where my restoration/amelioration line comes into play.  Honestly?  If something hits for more than 50% (and there are things that do) I don't think there is a viable healer class that can handle it any better than we can.<div></div>

[LowfyrWildforge]

<DIV>I do a decent amount of soloing for status points.   I have 3337 mit, 23.9 percent avoidance.  Level 60 Templar.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Fighting two droag sentries (the one arrow down solo variety), I get interrupted, on average, about 50 times.</DIV> <DIV>Isn't this a TAD bit high?</DIV>

[Penguin of Death]

<div><blockquote><hr>3devious wrote:<div></div> <div>I also agree that fizzles are annoying.  I have been on the beneficial side of the random number generator with that lately.</div> <div> </div> <div>I still get mad when I fizzle the essence items that conjurors give you...</div> <div> </div> <div>...3 times in a row.</div><hr></blockquote> I totally agree with you 3devious, in fact not only do the fizzles come from the essence but also hearts from necros and power pots that you can buy from alchies. This needs to be fixed as I see absolutly no reason why such items should fizzle. Its bad enough that we have to deal with spells fizzling to no end.But lets get real here, SOE will never make any changes to the templar class. The only thing you can count on is that they will nerf us yet again at some point.  <span></span></div>

[110euph]

<DIV>I've posted about this before, but I just want to chime in again...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>My illusionist has NOWHERE NEAR the number of fizzles that my templar does.  Neither class is DPS... so by that I mean when I cast a spell on either one of them I want it to cast NOW (if mez or root fizzles it could easily mean my death) but I cannot ever remember fizzling on my Illusionist.  I'm sure it happens, but not NEARLY to the extent it does on my templar.  Both classes are NEED TO CAST NOW classes... so that's not the issue... </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I sincerely believe that Templars fizzle a lot more than other classes.  When I heal now, I don't queue up spells.  I speed click the mouse over the button because I expect to fizzle.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Dunno.  I'm level 47... 3 away from the origional max level.  You'd think that a templar of that level would be a much more able healer.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Don't misunderstand... I heal VERY WELL when the spells go off.  I'm talking only about fizzles here.</DIV>

[ecoskii]

<DIV>On the group healing versus druid point:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The thing i love about raid heals is that we have diversity - it would be a shame to focus your energies on trying to reduce that.  Each class excels at something - druids are best at direct heals and regenning health (grps or MT), shamans are best at mitigating spike damage and clerics deal with all the general MT melee damage.  Shamans are rubbish at regenning health as well - sure our wards translate into heals eventually but that very rarely happens as the wards are typically consumed and it would be too risky to wait for the timer to run out.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As a raid leader I really don't see clerics 'broken' in this area - you just aren't as good as another class at their best capability.  We went into DT with 4 clerics - I wish we hadn't....1 druid kept all the squishies alive easily against the gazers whilst a defiler AND inq occasionally lost the rangers - long live diversity.</DIV>

[Anoixia]

<DIV>I play a templar on a pvp server and what I have noticed thus far (not that high yet), is that a slow, root or even just a dmg spell that can be cast while moving.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I have been very satisfied playin a templar on pvp but people are able to run from me so easy when I am winning.  Other classes are able to do a lot more to stop a flee opponet.  Mystics have a slow componet to their nuke, and shamn as a whole can have a root through their Phalanx AA.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I'm not saying templar should be super in pvp or anything, or be the best in every situation.  Its just no fun that when I am winning I can never get the kill.  WHen a lot of other classes have methods of catching or preventing people that run away much easier.</DIV>

[Cleric]

<p>somebody do me a favor and tell me which class is the actual "Healer" class in EQ because half of this makes 0 sense to me..  you have like 8 healing classes but none of them are dedicated to just healing.</p>

[Cleric]

<p>repeat post sry</p>

[Uadan]

<p>As a primary soloer I have set AA's to maximize damage and gear also. But now this has cause me to be lacking in the healing department. Now when I group I am haveing a hard time keeping people healed. Healers seem to have this more than other classes in that there is a conflict between solo setup and group. </p><p>solo:</p><p>select damage masterII</p><p>max , int , str</p><p>max regen, mitigation (can not increase avoidance sinse change that class set avoidance not gear)</p><p>upgrade constant buffs, damge spells, stuns, cures, then heals</p><p>group</p><p>select heal / cure master II</p><p>max wis</p><p>max regen, power</p><p>upgrade heals, cures, constan buffs,  stuns , then damage spells</p><p>What I would like to see is some way in solo to increase damage.</p><p>1. heroic opertunities. require a little more effort on player side. Maybe more control over resulting spell or compounding. Compounding would be to add more stages to increase damge. </p><p>   2 stage normal HO damge</p><p>   3 stage 1.5/2x normal HO damge</p><p>   4 stage 3x/4x normal HO damge</p><p>2. damge shield</p>

[PhoenixValour]

<p>Hey, i wanted to share my view on this issue:</p><ul><li>Firstly i agree with many others, that although i raid rather than solo, templars <b><u>desperately</u></b> need a dps increase</li><li>Secondly i think Reverance<b> <u>or</u></b> Divine Arbitration need a revamp to give a templar more healing options (i say or cause i think if you made changed both you would swing the balance to much in a Templars favour).....increase reverance timer perhaps? maybe with possible multiple targets?</li><li>Odysey should be changed, my view on this is not to make it like a port in the sense of a druid but keeping the original idea but adding flexibility, i was thinking maybe allowing the templar to choose locations in all the different districts in cities, maybe the templar could bind up2 10 locations in a city to enable him to port people back there</li><li>I noticed some people wanted a instant heal for the templar, i strongly disagree here and you are venturing into the realm of the Paldin,</li><li>To make up for the strength of warding i believe that clerics should have much stronger direct heals than their shaman counterparts</li></ul><p>Anyways thats just a few of my thoughts i decided to throw into the pot when i saw this post Ajax Valour Delusions of Grandeur Guk</p>

[Avirodar]

Are you sure templars "desperately" need more DPS capability?. I have seen a templar (in the same guild as mine) parse over 2000 on numerous occasions, on EoF raid content. He was not in a hugely buff stacked group, or anything of that nature either. Breaking 2k, on repeated occasions, isn't enough?

[D0niel]

<p>I would really like to see a message in the game window notifying plate healers when they are casting a reactive that isn't going to stack with one already on the target. Preventing reactives from being cast on the target if they aren't going to stack with another plate healers spell would be even cooler. </p>

[Hoyty]

If you want higher DPS, I recommend trying this.  Get the EOF legendary gear, take improved casting time in the cleric tree with nuke crit maxed out, max out the int line nuke.  Then go into the templar tree and take 5 ranks in the nuke line getting holy strike, holy smite, and warring axiom, then 5 ranks in what ever else you want in that line (I typically take the hammer) and the end line ability.  For against undead which there are tons of, maxing the wisdom line nuke and melee proc while using yaulp has gotten me lots of 7.5k shots off on undead. I went this route and parsed 1300 in freethinkers while healing.  You can even keep blessings if you do this, if you give up the sanctuary increase which if you want to do DPS I wouldn't be so concerned about. Remember, you can't do everything, otherwise you'd be the best class in the game.  Which there should never be. Oh and don't forget masters, they add up, toss in Sol Ro cloak, and the SoD staff, you're rocking some pretty kicking damage for still being a great healer.

[Kydar]

I have a 43 fae inquisitor (betrayed obviously) As a Templar I could solo green's and low blue's with a lot of trouble paused after every match. I had went down the smite AA line but that's more recast and power usage so wasn't doing too much damage. Betrayed to inquisitor bought some spell upgrades and I'm doing awesome dps not using too much power per fight (magma wormlings-lvl 41) A few more smites, would go a long way in the grand scheme of things. Playing my inquisitor I almost forget that the class is related to the templar because it doesn't make me want to barf with no solo ability. More smites(dps) is probably exactly what Templar's need. That being to make us more soloable because we won't always beable to find a group.

[Murzin]

<p>i just want to preface this with im a 34 templar and i try to keep my main spells at adept 1 or if i can get a master for 10g or less i get it.</p><p> i find soloing very easy for myself.  i stick to no more than 1-2 levels higher and blues seem to be easiest for soloing.</p><p>i dont fizzle at all and sometimes interrupts are difficult but only get interrupted when fighting 3-5 mobs at once.  i start up with casting the group reactive, then start the DD+DOT spell, then enable melee attack and start a heroic with the sword spell that does bonus dmg to undead and finish with a smite, then  another smite, then do another heroic chain, then another of the DD+DOT...  by the 2nd DD+DOT i may need another smite or 2 to kill it but thats it.</p><p>i usually end fights with 60-75% mana.</p><p>for groups i heal very well usually being the only healer in the group.</p><p>the biggest thing i can see for healing would be make the spells cast faster because some of them are really slow given the pace of combat.  another thing would be change the damage wards to not block 100% of damage but rather change them to block 50% of the damage with same damage prevention values allowing wards to block some of the damage, reactives for the immediate heal and HoTs to take care of the rest of the damage.  that would be a perfect dicotomy for healing and methods imo.</p><p>that or else give each healer type access to 2 of the types of heals.  HoT, Ward, Reactive.  say templars get both reactive and wards, druids get hot+reactive, wardens get wards and hot</p>

[Caethre]

<p><span style="color: #ff6600;">OOC.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">I've left it a long time, but finally have gotten around to updating the header post on this thread, with post-GU37-relevant comments.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">New comments continue to be welcome, especially from newer Templars picking up the class for the first time. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">p.o.Felishanna</span></p>

[Wastura]

<p><b><span style="font-size: small;">Outdone by at least two classes in every aspect:</span></b> </p><p>Better place to put this?</p><p>The priority list is:</p><p>Wards</p><p>Regens</p><p>Reactives</p><p>Directs</p><p>I put regens up there because they fire no matter what, if the tank has parry 100% up the reactive does nothing, if the ward is up, it gets counted first. The templar is the reactive healer, it comes second to last, the other thing that distinguishes the templar is having the biggest direct heals, these fall last because there is nothing intuitive about them.</p><p>Yes, I outheal the fury, in the MT group. In the off tank groups the druids and group wards work first against AoE's, it gets rough trying to make my numbers stick. So when the numbers come out, the slower, harder templar that is supposed to have big numbers come up pretty sad.</p><p>And DPS? Maybe the shaman can complain, I wouldn't dare argue that slowing the mob makes up for dps, but the druid on the other hand has no right to out dps so much, or if they do the templar should get some more than a stupid dot, a dot, two nukes and an encounter nuke. Let's look at it this way.</p><p>Solo play: Fury or Templar? Fury has more avoidance to cast spells with. Has more and stronger nukes to dps with. Has better utility to move about etc with. Winner: Fury</p><p>Shaky group: Fury or Templar? The templar's group reactive goes off even if the single target used on the tank would heal him entirely, so the power to keep the group one goes down faster for less effect whereas the fury has a group regen that benefits the whole group the whole time it's up.</p><p>Solid Group: Fury or Templar? Unless you're running Unrest or some other primarily undead zone, the dps a fury could put out while the group doesn't need heals has such disparity that only a fool would choose the templar.</p><p>Raid OT groups: Fury or Templar? This goes back to the shakey and solid grouping, and concidering most raids require DPS the choice seems clear cut. Put on templar in the MT group for his buffs and capacity to fix a low on HP tank scenario (when wards fail and regen isn't enough, maybe use a templar [I cannot control my vocabulary]?)</p><p>The cleric I feel needs to be looked at cause wards and furies do a better job.</p><p>I would reroll a fury, but it's a bit overplayed, already having the extra furies in guild move to scouts. </p><p><b><span style="font-size: small;">Gear for plate healers:</span></b></p><p><cite>Kizee@Befallen wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>From fyreflyte, Assoc. Game DesignerQuote:Not sure why people always blame the lack of brawler gear on caster leather. The reason you're seeing so much caster leather this expansion is because I felt it would be pointless to create every single piece of priest armor in triplicate (leather, chain, plate) when all 3 types could wear leather, and generally had little use for the extra mitigation of the higher armor types. Thus, the majority of the priest gear I created was leather so that all priests could make use of it. </blockquote><p>Dear Fyreflyte,</p><p>If my class, templar, wasn't meant to use the extra mitigation of plate armor this expansion, then please allow me more avoidance like you gave your now obvious favorite, the fury for being a leather class. I'm not asking much, just a little avoidance so I can cast ONE SPELL WHILE A WHITE SOLO MOB HITS ME INSTEAD OF BEING INTERUPTED TO DEATH!</p>

[Hoyty]

Get more focus.  And something to speed up casting.  Use your stun/daze.  You'll finish your spells then.

[Snowloc]

in my opinion take plate away just give us cloth armor we are priest. remove all debuffs give us more heal and buffing. When I see the name Templar it says holy knight which are paladins.

[Bodracoran]

<p>I would LOVE to see Glory proc a group reactive instead of a heal.</p><p>90% of the fight I keep the group full health so 90% of the time Glory's procs are totally wasted...</p><p>But if it proc'd even a 1 hit reactive it would always be benificial...</p>

[AngusMcLachlan]

<cite>Trinral wrote:</cite><blockquote>Are you sure templars "desperately" need more DPS capability?. I have seen a templar (in the same guild as mine) parse over 2000 on numerous occasions, on EoF raid content. He was not in a hugely buff stacked group, or anything of that nature either. Breaking 2k, on repeated occasions, isn't enough?</blockquote><p>I'm going out on a limb here and sorry to make assumptions, but yes, we still do need a dps increase.</p><p> Likley you are refering to a zone with alot of undead and the templar, being smart, hit their mirror with thier dps undead build and walked into the raid with their undead nuke(s) and combat undead procs maxed (like 4-8-8-8-8-1).   In which case our undead proc hits for 1500-2000 before it's first upgrade and we can spell crit and dmg on top of that.</p><p>Now, though, on that note, i've found myself enjoying and trying to group more and more with necromancers, undead spec'd paladins, and such....   which on my undead build is extremely fast for zones like coa and parts of vaults/maidens.</p>

[Arcman]

<p>I agree with most of what I have seen here so far.</p><p>I agree we lack in dps even when spec'd in that direction with armor and AA. This is not my main concern. We are supposed to be "balanced" healers, in that nobody is really supposed to be better than anyone else, but this is not the case.</p><p>First problem I see is our largest heal only can heal a good 15k hp tank for about 20% of his heal on a normal heal. That is pretty pathetic. Our reactives could proc when they take any damage not just a melee attack.</p><p>One thing I have found since coming back a few months ago and running the ACT parser is that if I am grouped with a Fury or Warden, if they even half-heartedly try they out heal me. When I talk to them in voice an ask about their heal crit chance generally they are in the same % area as me. What I have deducted from all my logical evaluations is that they CAN proc their crit heals on every tick of their heal over times. Whereas we can only proc it on our long cast smaller amount heals. This being said, they also have a chance to proc their Overloaded healing items on every tick too, and I think several of these items stack. So if they have 3 OLH(overloaded heal)  every tick of their Heal over time can proc 3 additionals, as well as kick out a crit heal on that tick, in the end of a group fight this can lead to that fury/warden pulling huge heal totals out compared to us.</p><p>I think we need either Shorter castings and more heal amounts to even this out, or we need a very large increase to what we are healing for now. I always think back to my cleric in EQ1 and wonder why my Divine arbritration is on a 15min timer, why is it not at 5 min with aa spent to bring it down to 1 min? Why dont we have a Complete Heal? A 10 second 10k heal critting for up to 20k would really be nice. Sure they would bring it but it would probably have the fail recast time of 15min like divine arbritration.</p><p>I want to see more +healing on our plate armor, I mean thats what it is for? When I see +45 spell damage and combat arts on my melee set I always wonder why I got shaft on my group set with +20 spell/heal. </p><p>We have many disadvantages at this point it seems, I think this class needs some serious love, it seems we have not been helped recently compared to most others. When i started playing this fine game I remember throwing reactive heals on my tank and depending on how fast he was taking damage just watch his bar tick back to full, now i toss a reactive and it just holds his bar where it is if I'm lucky. Its just a holdover till I can land my big heal on him and even that only heals a 15k tank about 1/5 of his hp on a normal cast.</p>

[Hopefulne]

<p>thought i'd post some thoughts <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>-Complete Heals</p><p>They are profoundly game changing and no amount of 'in EQ1  my cleric...' will make them worth implementing IMO.</p><p>-DPS</p><p>Biggest issue for clerics (and inquisitors atm in particular) is that anything clerics can get to buff dps is more easily obtained by other classes.  Melee crit is a notable one. When clerics could initally get 100% melee crit it was cool as no one else could - now it seems every meleer and their grandmother can get 70%+ melee crit. And usually on a higher weapon damage table and with a higher damage weapon as well.  (the damage range on mythicals for example)</p><p>P.S no more double attack please</p><p>P.P.S being able to dual wield would be fantastic</p><p>-Plate armour and itemisation</p><p>If the designers and programmers don't see the point of adding chain/plate versions of priest items then why is there a decreased avoidance chance on clerics wearing non-plate armour?   In the case of the dark mail gauntlets why bother with plate as anything other than a cosmetic choice (read - not class defining as it is currently is) if leather is going to be given more mitigation than many plate items of comparable quality and level?</p><p>-Reactives and wards procing items</p><p> Please hurry and fix this.  It would be nice to see a reason to use OverLoaded Heal items or the Emerald Mist Gauntlets again.</p>

[Erowind]

<p>Hello, im Erowind from AB server, im a level 80 Templar, mostly equiped with Shard Armor Tier 1 i even have the new Spellbear. im pritty decently kitted for a non raid templar. I find instances easy to solo heal, this includes all the TSO instances, and the Kunark ones. some named are not possible and have to bypass, but the majority i can handle. all my heal abilities are Adept3 or MasterI, i have 450 + Heal ammount and a 50% Heal Crit chance, 60 when my TSO Armor Procs. I never solo because i find it to slow, fights go on forever, and normally against anything worthwhile i die. I did not choose my class to solo, if i had i would have gone the paladin route. I chose my class because i wanted to make sure other people would not die, not to have uber dps. i chose templar because i wanted good solid buffs for a tank. and some of the best heals in the game. but going back to the point, what templars need</p><p>Imo.</p><p>Single Target Heal</p><p>i like the speed of the cast, and i like the reuse timer. heals a decent amount for Casters and Scouts. tanks doesnt do to much to but its nice for a spot heal. my large single heal i wish either did alittle more or could  be cast alittle faster. doesnt quite feel like its there yet.</p><p>Group Heal</p><p>My group heal casts fast enough. the retimer is perfect, but unfortunately is just dont heal enough.. on most fights AE Effects take along time before there recast ive noticed at min i can get 2 group heals off. which is fairly decent, but it only heals around 5k at tops. this is great for casters, but with scouts and tanks in the group it does nothing to them. just alittle more group healage and we would be an all around perfect group healer.</p><p>Wards</p><p>ok lol. why does a templar have wards? dont get my wrong it rocks. ive seen a mob get 2 big hits off before it goes. and when mentor'd down its crazy!. but why do we actually need one, isnt it more shaman style?.. why not have better Reactives and Heals.</p><p>Reactives</p><p>Single Target Reactive rocks, imo</p><p>Group Reactive could use alittle faster reuse but it works well, never had a problem with it. i use it often and when using single and group together i find little gets through, the odd heal occasionaly unless in a named fight or with multiple mobs.</p><p>what i call my free reactives are sound as they are. they are handy in a tight spot. which should only happen occasionaly if your not over your head.</p><p>I use debuffs if i have time. if i have time then the fights not worth debuffing. i normally always do the physical debuff because of melle dps. but the rest are pointless imo, give us better buffs! or better ( when mob is hit you get healed debuffs )</p><p>Buffs are great. wish single target hp buff had resists, stats, hp, defence, parry, etc.. maybe alittle haste. but that could be wishing for to much, i know it gets better with epic but shame it doesnt already have alittle to start.</p><p>all around i think the templar is a great class they, Erowind has always performed well for me in very tight spots and has shown great healing and keeping the group alive skills is some great ways. i dont think alot needs doing but perhaps alittle tweek here and there, as for people wanting to solo as a templar start a necro or a fury. Templars are pure healers and Demonoids at buffing. my mind is set to an old Cleric, and imo they are the ultimate healer buffer, i would like some more undead abilities and i think that is where the solo should come into it. i think the Turn undead you should have anyways without going through the AA line. our main nuke which hits undead twice should do more Dmg. then the templar would be all around perfect!</p><p>Erowind Pihkal</p><p>80 Templar</p><p>80 Berserker</p>

[Arcman]

<p>OK now I have had several months of raiding higher end tso content, im moderately geared(Palace and Tombs <span style="text-decoration: underline;">clearing</span>,100%+ heal crits and over 10k in all resists) I generally live while others go down fast. After seeing what I can do dps and heals wise compared to other healers. We are at a severe loss. At least druids can dps like a madman. Shaman can outheal anyone with little effort. I say little effort when i look at ending amounts.</p><p>We do not offer the best heals or the best dps. We are the slack that was let out of the healers, Druids can dps Shaman heal like crazy, we kinda do both and not well at either when compared.</p><p>General tso palace named 8 min fight. heal parse is like this, defiler1 1.350 million in heals, defiler2 1.2 million, RandomDruid1GroupDying/choker 400k heals and everyone other cleric an druid in the top coming close behind/close to that. Shaman outheal us by almost 4 times  in most cases  ratio over 3 better. They ward and they get credit for the ward absorbing the damage and then it heals them for same amount it absorbs so its 2 for1 healing. This happens before clerics reactives and druid regen. So if they have a 4k ward thats really an 8k potential(and will get it most likely) heal, while i get a modest 5k crit straight slow cast heal. I look at their totals, they dont have tons of crits, I assume they went for +healing because i generally have 10 times the castings.</p><p>Shaman are not equal to other healers, they are way above us and everyone knows it. Groups look for them first as a standard almost always. All healers are not equal. All players arent either, but good people similarly geared is no competition, shaman win hands down on a heal parse. Generally thats all people have to go off of. When they look at dps parses then look at hps parses they think shaman own us all day long because by their numbers they do.</p><p>Then whats funny is the shaman act like they are gods gift to everquest 2 because they know if they halfway try nobody on a ACT parser will be able to compete. Its false self-image. I bet if they had to work half as hard as I do to scrape my numbers from whats left over healwise instead of competing(ie take away wards first healing make it First healing lands wins) they are not even close to even now.</p><p>I would love to see either my heal totals coming out closer to shamans or my dps to come closer to druid, we cant have the worse of both worlds. I no longer wonder why theres a shortage of plate healers. I love my templar and would love to have something besides our hp buff thats good in the game. I want a more balanced templar in the game mechanics</p>

[Orthureon]

<p><cite>Arcman wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>OK now I have had several months of raiding higher end tso content, im moderately geared(Palace and Tombs <span style="text-decoration: underline;">clearing</span>,100%+ heal crits and over 10k in all resists) I generally live while others go down fast. After seeing what I can do dps and heals wise compared to other healers. We are at a severe loss. At least druids can dps like a madman. Shaman can outheal anyone with little effort. I say little effort when i look at ending amounts.</p><p>We do not offer the best heals or the best dps. We are the slack that was let out of the healers, Druids can dps Shaman heal like crazy, we kinda do both and not well at either when compared.</p><p>General tso palace named 8 min fight. heal parse is like this, defiler1 1.350 million in heals, defiler2 1.2 million, RandomDruid1GroupDying/choker 400k heals and everyone other cleric an druid in the top coming close behind/close to that. Shaman outheal us by almost 4 times  in most cases  ratio over 3 better. They ward and they get credit for the ward absorbing the damage and then it heals them for same amount it absorbs so its 2 for1 healing. This happens before clerics reactives and druid regen. So if they have a 4k ward thats really an 8k potential(and will get it most likely) heal, while i get a modest 5k crit straight slow cast heal. I look at their totals, they dont have tons of crits, I assume they went for +healing because i generally have 10 times the castings.</p><p>Shaman are not equal to other healers, they are way above us and everyone knows it. Groups look for them first as a standard almost always. All healers are not equal. All players arent either, but good people similarly geared is no competition, shaman win hands down on a heal parse. Generally thats all people have to go off of. When they look at dps parses then look at hps parses they think shaman own us all day long because by their numbers they do.</p><p>Then whats funny is the shaman act like they are gods gift to everquest 2 because they know if they halfway try nobody on a ACT parser will be able to compete. Its false self-image. I bet if they had to work half as hard as I do to scrape my numbers from whats left over healwise instead of competing(ie take away wards first healing make it First healing lands wins) they are not even close to even now.</p><p>I would love to see either my heal totals coming out closer to shamans or my dps to come closer to druid, we cant have the worse of both worlds. I no longer wonder why theres a shortage of plate healers. I love my templar and would love to have something besides our hp buff thats good in the game. I want a more balanced templar in the game mechanics</p></blockquote><p>A curious inquis would like to know what you parse for DPS? Solo, group and raid if you could be so kind.</p>

[Arcman]

<p>It depends where we are but when i parse around 2k the really good clerics will hit 3k and the druids are 5-6k range so we are not stackin up next to them good.</p>

[Enoa]

<p><cite>Arcman wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>It depends where we are but when i parse around 2k the really good clerics will hit 3k and the druids are 5-6k range so we are not stackin up next to them good.</p></blockquote><p>/shrug.   hitting 4-5k in soh before tso with mixed spec (sta/int/agi/blessing/smitewraths).    Have since changed my mirror specs around to have a pure conservative healing (str/agi/int/blessing/smitewraths/anything healerish in TSO) spec and a pure dps (str/sta/int/blessings/smithwraths/litany/flurry/tso nuke upgrades etc ) spec/gear.    Have hit 7k in the MT group (with dps spec) on palace trash (coercer, dirge, assasin, defiler, guard, temp).   In my [Removed for Content] healer gear/ aa setup it might be hard to beat 3k consistently but it works well for healing.   This is with a raid that usually consists of 3 groups (recruiting!  PST) and pushing about 100-120 k peak dps.</p><p> Stop crying over heal parses...t hey are meaningless except to evaluate gear.   A defiler thatis boasting his heal parses doesn't understand heal mechanics.   Templars offer Stoneskin, avoid pass, huge physical mitigation debuff, and superior CC immunity (steadfast and epic/mythical) making them the BEST heroic content solo healer and an ESSENTIAL MT group healer.</p><p>My only complaint is the lack of STR on conservative healer gear and the fact that troubs offer about the same amount of mitigation as templars do and the (soon to be) lack of a viable "oh crap" rescue heal (/sniff bye bye sacrifice 1.0) </p><p>Wardens are still weak except for the crit mit buff.   Furies have little to offer INT capped mages.  Even Mystic's Bolster is less useful then it was with how easy it is to cap stats.   Inquisitors got some much needed loving in TSO but i doubt they'll be rocking the MT group this xpac <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" />  (at least on PVE servers >< )</p>

[Caethre]

<p>==============================</p><p>(( Eighteen months have passed since the main issues list was updated. Since this is our stickied balance issues thread, I have updated it with the latest issues, gathered from feedback on this forum from other templars. ))</p><p>==============================</p>

[Sprin]

<p><cite>Felishanna@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><div><div><strong><span style="color: #ff6600;">(2) TSO AP Ability "Sacrifice"</span></strong></div><div> </div><div><strong><span style="color: #ff6600;">Issue</span></strong>:</div><div>No matter how much or how little the target of this spell is healed, the Cleric is reduced to around 5% of his total health. Even if the person is at 100% health you still loose all of yours except 5%.</div><div> </div><div><span style="color: #ff6600;"><strong>Suggestion</strong></span>:</div><div>Have the spell only reduce the Cleric's health the amount healed, up to 95% of the Clerics total health - his current missing health. (e.g. Cleric accidentally hits sacrifice while targeting Guardian at 100% health, no health removed form Cleric).</div><div> </div><div> </div></div></blockquote><p>Here is my suggestion from the other sticky "Templar Issues" thread... since SOE has said the suggestion above cant be done:</p><p><strong><span style="color: #33cccc;">Sacrifice:</span> </strong><span style="color: #ff0000;">.  </span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">This spell sounds an awefull lot like Manaward on a Coercer.  The only difference is the coercers POWER is drained to 5% and a ward equivalent to 1 point of ward for every 1.5 points of power drained.  This sounds like an excelent start to fix this spell, where a ward is applied, or even a reactive that lasts for 30 seconds that has the equivalent to 1 point of reactive heal / ward for every 1.5 poitns of your health used.  So instead of power like a coercer, it just uses your health, but provides a ward / reactive instead of just a straight heal.  </span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">IE: you have 10k health, 95 percent of that is 9500, so the reactive heal amount / ward (30 second duration or 20 or something) would be 6300ish... </span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">Keeping the 95% health drain needs to be left in there. Afterall, it needs to be detrimental to the templar, or it wouldnt be a "sacrifice" so just transfering their health to full and yours down just a bit, is not much of a sacrifice...  I think what i suggested above is a great alternative, you still sacrifice your health but its worth while..</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">I would imagine that a 1/1.5 ratio is smaller than what it is currently on sacrifice for the straight heal, but you really cant have both IMHO.  That would be too OP to give a 30 second ward / reactive equal to 95 percent of your own health....  </span></p>