Coercer Raid AA Setup

[laddich]

<DIV>I have a question about raiding coercers... what is your idea of the "best" raid AA setup and why.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I find I don't use sever empathy at all, as the MT tends to pull nameds with Rescue while secondary tank taunts encounter so the adds do head for the healers. When someone takes agro, tanks usually notices (or we point "hey Vyemm is on Poopsicle") at which time the tank does his stinking best to regain agro. That drops the STA end ability... However the rest of the STA line is very nice for raids, esp. the reduced agro for group members.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I use AGI 4/5/4/4/1 (yay Perpetuality!!!) STA 4/4/4/8 and some INT 4.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I am curious as to your "ideal" raid setup, plz inform</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Wikod]

<div></div>I will be 4/4/8/8 Wis/Sta (Im like 2 points away from this setup)Seems to work pretty well for me<div></div><p>Message Edited by Wikod on <span class=date_text>08-02-2006</span> <span class=time_text>04:10 PM</span>

[Viohlen]

<DIV><STRONG>Available Points</STRONG><STRONG>0 </STRONG><STRONG>Total Points Spent </STRONG><STRONG>50 </STRONG><STRONG>Exp To Next Ach Rank </STRONG><STRONG>0 %</STRONG></DIV> <P></P> <DIV><EM><STRONG>Mana Flow </STRONG></EM><EM><STRONG>1/1</STRONG></EM></DIV> <DIV> <B>Empathic's Stamina</B><B>4/8</B></DIV> <DIV align=left><B></B> </DIV> <DIV> Touch of Empathy4/8</DIV> <DIV align=left> </DIV> <DIV> Empathic Aura8/8</DIV> <DIV align=left> </DIV> <DIV> Empathic Soothing5/8</DIV> <DIV align=left> </DIV> <DIV><I> Sever Empathy</I><I>0/1</I></DIV> <DIV align=left><I> </I></DIV> <DIV> <B>Savant's Intelligence</B><B>4/8</B></DIV> <DIV align=left><B> </B></DIV> <DIV> Nullifying Staff4/8</DIV> <DIV align=left> </DIV> <DIV> Savant's Insight4/8</DIV> <DIV align=left> </DIV> <DIV> Savant's Channeling8/8</DIV> <DIV align=left> </DIV> <DIV><I> Volatile Magic</I><I>1/1</I></DIV> <DIV align=left><I> </I></DIV>

[Leawyn]

<DIV>picking AA's is getting tough for me. I'm still only 58, but want to make the right choices early! I'm currently going down the stamina line, but not sure where my points will go after I finish that one off.</DIV>

[Raidi Sovin'faile]

<P>Personally, I got sick of my spells not landing on raid mobs, so I went Wis 4, 4, 8, 8 and am going down Stamina 4, 4, 8. Probably put Agility 4, 5 with what's leftover.</P> <P>The resists helped quite a bit too. Got more than a few +all resist gear (rare crafted, gnomish boots, sentinel ring but trying to get light chitin, etc). Add in the extra 800 and I've got around 4k resists in normal gear... 6k or so with all resist gear on. Very little sacrificed Int for it too (+23 int on the rare crafted). I still need to do the claymore quests with this char.</P> <P>I tend to survive a lot more than most casters against AoE's. Which is good since I'm more often than not in the MT group, and me dying = MT losing ~40% hate buff (need to find the master!).</P> <P> </P> <P>If things change and the +subjugation becomes less useful, I may respec to get more Chronosiphoning.</P> <P>The hate reduction from the Stamina line is a waste really, and for raiding the final ability in Stamina is rather useless (note that it doesn't work on epics). Save the 12-16 points there for something else (like maxing resists on Wisdom line).</P> <P>The Int line is mostly for doing more DPS. If you already have a coercer in the MT group, and you are basically going to be extra... then it might be more useful. Volatile magic + maxed chronosiphoning could make for some nice DPS boost. However, I didn't play my coercer to be DPS... I have other classes I play for that.</P>

[Dravendar]

As I'm pretty much always in the MT group, I respecced to the following AAs:Sta - 4/4/8Wis - 4/4/8Int - 4/4/4/5The stamina line is for 14% increased heal crits which will make every healer fall in love with youWisdom line for ~800 more resists to all magical resists (Iowest resist is at 7k but typically 8k+ for the rest)Intel for that 7.3% increased spell dmg crits for that extra dps kickThis setup ensures greatest survivability and usefullness as a coercer in the MT group.  If I was not in the MT group, I'd respec for more dps which I'm sure is covered here/elsewhere.  <div></div>

[Tanatus]

<P>There is no absolute answer but in general for raiding coercers 2 "the best" set up possible</P> <P>a) offensive MT raiding</P> <P>INT 4/4/4/8 (max crits) AGI 4/8/1 (max siphoning, 0.1 cool down reduction) STA 4/4/8 (max crit heals)</P> <P>b) deffensive MT raiding</P> <P>INT 4/4/4/8 (max crit) STA 4/4/8 (max crit heals) WIS 4/4/5 (+500 to resist)</P> <P>Consensus is you need max on critical heals and max on critical hostile spells that all</P>

[Viohlen]

<DIV>I've tried a few different setups and while the resists and skill bonuses are nice from the WIS line, and the speed is 'fun' from the AGI line I've seen the largest gains in my raid contribution from a combination of the STA and INT lines.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The end of the INT line turns us into a DPS class.  Sprint before each fight to get to ~27% power and unleash hell.  </DIV>

[Wikod]

INT 4/4/4/8 (max crit) STA 4/4/8 (max crit heals) WIS 4/4/5 (+500 to resist)I like this setup it seems to give a little offensive boost and still stay pretty defensive for the MT group<div></div>

[Crono1321]

Coercer is not a dps class.  On raid you are typically not charming, and even a crit is only going to be an extra 100 damage or so.  I went 4/4/8 STA 4/4/8/8 WIS for the heal crit, +800 to all resists, and +42 to subjugation/focus.  Daydream is useful also in a group/questing setting, but it needs to be fixed to where you don't engage a mob with daydream once you've started a different encounter.  The haste line for me isn't that appealing anyway, coercers cast pretty fast overall except for 1 or 2 ae spells, I would prefer to survive or outright resist an AE than to debuff a mob .02seconds faster.  The group deaggro is negligible at 7.2% at 8points, so I respecced out of that.  I am not sure what my final setup will be as I just hit 50aa the other day, and haven't come to a conclusion yet. 

[Viohlen]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Crono1321 wrote:<BR>Coercer is not a dps class.  On raid you are typically not charming, and even a crit is only going to be an extra 100 damage or so.  I went<BR><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Debatable.</P> <P>I can parse 800+ consistently in Halls of Seeing or Lyceum of Abhorrence.  Tarinax fights if I'm not in MT group I parse in the top 5 DPS.  Xuxliao's Roost I parse 3rd-4th without using my INT end ability.</P> <P>Realize that as long as a mob is hitting consistently and casting AOE's, we're up there just below or sometimes at the level of Wizards and Rangers.</P>

[Tanatus]

<P>Crono stick with your warlock lol ...</P> <P>Coercer may be not as good as zerker or warlock or assasin DPS wise but surely easy able beat brawlers and lousy wizards and at occasion can make rangers run for thier money. Key is - endurance fight - the longer fight the higher on DPS ladder sitting coercer. In optimum group setup (troubadur, inquistior in group and mobs are constantly dispatched) with heavy casting mobs (LOA/HOS) coercer with right gear and AA able consistently sustein 800-1000DPS</P> <P>Oh btw +skills DO NOTHING actually less then nothing as you might remember dude way back in time group of warlocks (including my warlock) tested what effect have "Seal" line of warlocks on DPS .... guess what lol on yellow cons its REDUCE DPS by 10% on average</P> <P>Speaking about perpentuality  ... it add very visible chunk of DPS because of gear procs - the more spells you can over period of time the more procs you have</P>

[Awsomeo420]

<DIV>I actuly agree with Tanatus... im 4,8 ,1 agil 4 4 8 stam  4 4 4 8 int (may be another 4 b4 that 8 its max dmg crit) with that setup u keep ur heal crit for MT groups , well any group with a healer for that mater.... um 11.7% spell crit chance is not a bad thing..inless i go nuts and die..wich only happens in pick up groups when i crit like 3 aoes right off, Um chronosiphon just rocks.. and it only costs u 12 points in agil line to get it.... 30% casting timer decreases and increases to u a hostile target and your self... screw wis i had wis for awile 800 resists just isnt worth it you can more then make up for that in raid gear.. So imo Speed casting from crono + heal crits + dmg spell crits is my favorit raid setup.... i parsed 1300 in lycuem on that aoe encounter thats just down the stairs to the left... but the stupid Illu still out parsed.. me *stupid illus and there 1k parses just ant fair idc if i am beter at every thing else<img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />* BTW with most of the encounters sony keeps adding this game is basicly 1 big dps burn so yeah</DIV>

[Raidi Sovin'faile]

<P>Even my non-claymore non-relic non-fabled Bruiser can parse 800-1000. And he's not being chosen over true scout or caster DPS for raids.</P> <P>A Coercer won't be chosen <EM>specifically for DPS</EM> because others can do it better, far more easily and reliably.</P> <P> </P> <P>That isn't to say that it's useless to go down the Int line. I'm just saying, the resists are helping me far more now, since don't have claymore or light chitin rings, etc, on hand. I have some pretty good resists from the crafted armor, but my jewelry could stand to have more and the 800 makes it so I barely get hurt from any AoE's. Living hate management is better and far more important to a raid than a DPS'ing hate management class that dies.</P> <P> </P> <P>When a raid is already doing upwards to 12,000 DPS as a whole... is an extra 300 or so DPS really that big a factor?</P>

[Tanatus]

<P>Well in best case scenarion my guild raid DPS clocking between 10.5-13.5K DPS - which isn't much compare to some real DPS monsters guilds none the less lets see who are main contributor</P> <P>a) Brigand - due to Despatch roughly 20% raid DPS is belong to him (w/o bringand dispatch we never were able brake mark 10K DPS raid wide)</P> <P>b) Troubadur roughly +15-20% to nukers (directly with proc and dont kill the messanger and indirectly via de-agro)</P> <P>c) after those 2: top are usually warlock(s) (800-1700), zerker (900-1400), assasin (1000-1600), swash (600-1000), brigand (700-900) - after those? rather big banch of folks doing range from 500 to 900DPS - coercer (yours truely), rangers, wizards, SKs ... occasionally brawlers (fully fabled btw ...) again occasionally druids score 500 or so</P> <P>Speaking about resist vs. spell casting speed... Here is a genium problem - you cannt have maxed Int 4/4/4/8, maxed Sta 4/4/8 and maxed Agi 4/4/4/4/1 - you just dont have enouth AA (atm)... From what I have seen and test Perpentuality beat crap out of full Wis or full Sta spec BUT Siphoning (+30% to spell cast) is just not worth it compare to losing off hand item and losing ability to use Daydream</P> <P>In a sence if you want to maximize DPS you outha sacrofice your STA line for that (aka +14% to crit heals) -if you are secondary coercer for guild and not in MT group thats surely way to go otherwise? 30% faster spell cast and loosing banch of stats from off hand vs. Daydream+500 resist to all+ ability to equip symbol in off hand? - imo Wis better</P>

[Raidi Sovin'faile]

<P>The 30% spell haste only requires taking the offhand off for the moment it's being cast. Just make a macro for /unequip and then /useability. Keep your favorite symbol hotbar'd next to it and requip after you cast.</P> <P>You are not required to have it off to maintain the effect... just to cast it.</P>

[Awsomeo420]

<DIV>Well the way i look at it is the more dmg the better, the faster that mob is dead the less power your raids using.. now at least in my opinion being basicly full fabled resists just arnt worth me droping that many aas into wis line... and daydream was neat wile i had it but i dont do anything other then raid now, and that spell is for soloing it would bring to many head aches to a raid. Um the last AA in int line.... ok so u could bomb ur leet dps on the mob and get ur self to 20 or so % but then what happens when u need to hit channel for the rest of the group? i preffer having my 30% spell haste and gunning it to about 70-80%.... that way if the MT dies or an off healer dies i can just  hit the group with channel and there back in the fray. So im sticking with the casting haste that only cost me 12 aas to get, heal crit will always be maxed, and spell crit maxed that in my opinion is the best balanced raid set up but to each there own</DIV>

[Lleinen]

<P>whats the spell crit chance maxxed at 8, percent wise %?</P> <P>oh and Counterblade would be cool if it worked on mobs AE, but so far all i noticed is it works on only single target spells (could possibly be good for pulling a mob with a hefty nuke at the start /shrug)</P>

[Crono1321]

<blockquote><hr>Viohlence wrote:<div></div> <blockquote> <hr> Crono1321 wrote:Coercer is not a dps class.  On raid you are typically not charming, and even a crit is only going to be an extra 100 damage or so.  I went <hr> </blockquote> <p>Debatable.</p> <p>I can parse 800+ consistently in Halls of Seeing or Lyceum of Abhorrence.  Tarinax fights if I'm not in MT group I parse in the top 5 DPS.  Xuxliao's Roost I parse 3rd-4th without using my INT end ability.</p> <p>Realize that as long as a mob is hitting consistently and casting AOE's, we're up there just below or sometimes at the level of Wizards and Rangers.</p><hr></blockquote>And in that time you're doing 800dps, every other dps class is doing 1500+, so no...you're not dps, nor should you be concerned about it.  If I wanted to see my name at the top of the parser I would just play my warlock.  The raid succeeds because I am a coercer.<div></div>

[Anachronomicon]

<DIV>Hey! Let's debate coercer's viability as a DPS class.... again.... </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>[expletive haxx0red by Raijinn], let's quit derailing this. Tanatus plays his coercer for DPS, and it works for him.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I maxed STA and WIS, but I think the hate reduction AA is kind of a waste so I might respec. No end abilities.</DIV>

[Tanatus]

<P>Here we go again ....</P> <P>Perpentulity is the ONLY worth while skill from whole AGI line if you not getting it - there is little point of bothering with AGI line at all....</P> <P>Now question is that is essential for coercer on raid? - if you are resident of MT group it IS expected that you should support healers with 14% crit heals so here we go STA 4/4/8 + 1 Mana Flow. You have 33AA left to distribute Full spec is 25AA (4/4/4/4/1)... So you pretty much facing choice what you want to do next.. It is logical to maximize your DPS - thats give you a choice go full way into AGI or max out INT. From what I have tested with only 2 procing items (Orb and Gizz stick) criticals on Int slightly overperform Perpentuality effect BUT I am pretty sure that its may be possible that adding Bone Clasped Girdle and Fizzlpizzle orb (sp) make Perpentuality more efficient DPS maker then Critical on spells.. Here is a problem thou in MT group you are expected that if [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] hit fan to be able manipulate mana and guess what? with Perpentuality during raid I always was at 10% of mana (machine gun) -which is not what is expected in MT group for coercer - thus that cut off last skill in INT and Perpentuality</P> <P>Dont get me wrong Chronosiphoning DO boost your DPS (via somethat more often occurance of procs) but effect negliable. With Perpentuality AND Siphoning I was able cast Sonic at less then 1s cast time and THAT hell a lot different from normal 3.0s ... with 30% Siphoning you will merely casting 2.1s plus you need always keep eye to keep Siphoning up which is PITA. In time you spend swaping gear you can lanch 1 HO. In other words while Perpentuality always with you Siphoning is somethat you need spend time to maintain - thus - [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] not worth trouble</P> <P>WIS line usefull untill up to boosting resist (but once again only untill you gear up from QC and DT) and ! Daydream. Anything above Resist is waste of AA (at current stage of game)</P> <P>Anyway once new expantion is up I heared we'll get 25more AA I might respec and sacrofice my WIS line (currently at 4/4/5) to get Perpentuality (yes I am kinda miss my chain-gun casting) to have something along lines AGI 4/4/4/4/1, INT 4/4/4/8, STA 4/4/8 with spare points probably in extra interupt immunity (Int line)</P>

[Flipmode]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Crono1321 wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Viohlence wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Crono1321 wrote:<BR>Coercer is not a dps class.  On raid you are typically not charming, and even a crit is only going to be an extra 100 damage or so.  I went<BR><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Debatable.</P> <P>I can parse 800+ consistently in Halls of Seeing or Lyceum of Abhorrence.  Tarinax fights if I'm not in MT group I parse in the top 5 DPS.  Xuxliao's Roost I parse 3rd-4th without using my INT end ability.</P> <P>Realize that as long as a mob is hitting consistently and casting AOE's, we're up there just below or sometimes at the level of Wizards and Rangers.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>And in that time you're doing 800dps, every other dps class is doing 1500+, so no...you're not dps, nor should you be concerned about it.  If I wanted to see my name at the top of the parser I would just play my warlock.  The raid succeeds because I am a coercer.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Chances are if you bring your warlock you wont be anywhere near the top either.  If a raid wants DPS they will get competent Assasins, Swashy, Brigs, Conj, or Necros.  All can out dps your warlock by a large margin.

[Awsomeo420]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Crono1321 wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Viohlence wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Crono1321 wrote:<BR>Coercer is not a dps class.  On raid you are typically not charming, and even a crit is only going to be an extra 100 damage or so.  I went<BR><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Debatable.</P> <P>I can parse 800+ consistently in Halls of Seeing or Lyceum of Abhorrence.  Tarinax fights if I'm not in MT group I parse in the top 5 DPS.  Xuxliao's Roost I parse 3rd-4th without using my INT end ability.</P> <P>Realize that as long as a mob is hitting consistently and casting AOE's, we're up there just below or sometimes at the level of Wizards and Rangers.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>And in that time you're doing 800dps, every other dps class is doing 1500+, so no...you're not dps, nor should you be concerned about it.  If I wanted to see my name at the top of the parser I would just play my warlock.  The raid succeeds because I am a coercer.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Well id just like to say EVERY ONE should be concerned with dps... and try and do there share what you are implying is we are auto folow buff bots... i mean how many dmg spells do we have? how many passiv spells do we have... and u have 1 spell that u have to worry about that u actuly have to cast every now and then that isnt passive (manaflow) so in the time your waiting for some 1 to run a bit low or for mana flow to pop U SHOULD BE GUNING THE BEST U CAN ON DPS speced for it or not... i would not be a happy raid leader hearing any 1 say somthn like that... btw sorry if that sounded harsh but tossing up the numbers to the best of your ability is every 1s job i hate that oh i can slack cuz im a coercer aditude.. but who knows maybe i read ur post the wrong way... Oh and the the person who asked above what the dmg crit aa is maxed its 11.7% but that goes up with MOA and Second sight potions<BR>

[Pins]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Raidi Sovin'faile wrote:<BR> <P>The 30% spell haste only requires taking the offhand off for the moment it's being cast. Just make a macro for /unequip and then /useability. Keep your favorite symbol hotbar'd next to it and requip after you cast.</P> <P>You are not required to have it off to maintain the effect... just to cast it.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Actually you are, if you put it on your secondary and you lose the spell haste.

[Pins]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Lleinen wrote:<BR> <P>whats the spell crit chance maxxed at 8, percent wise %?</P> <P>oh and Counterblade would be cool if it worked on mobs AE, but so far all i noticed is it works on only single target spells (could possibly be good for pulling a mob with a hefty nuke at the start /shrug)</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>11.7%.

[Raidi Sovin'faile]

<P>I spec'd out of the Agility AA a few LU's ago.. but when I had it, I was casting fast even with reequipping the symbol. Hell, it was talked about back when the AAs first came out and people were posting about the symbol thing.</P> <P>If it doesn't anymore, that sucks.</P>

[Crono1321]

Yes it has been fixed to where if you re equip the symbol then you lose the casting speed increase. <div></div>

[Kiterra]

<div></div>What you have to realize is that while coercers are not a "true" dps class ie wizard or conj ect, you still must be contributing dps to the raid, adding dps to the raid is EVERYONE's job (minus healers of course). It's also a job that we can do pretty decent if we're setup the right way. If you have perpetuality, and a good deal of proc gear, and all of your damage masters, you can parse 1k in some raid zones consistently on multiple mob encounters. And you can do this from the MT group while dps modding the MT, the dirge, and the crusader, and giving hate reduction cross raid to two wizards or warlocks, while being mana regen, while giving hate gain to the MT, while giving heal crits to the MT healers, and while chewing gum and walking at the same time. If youre not dps'ing over 600 at the very least on raids, you are not doing your job and would be better replaced by a dirge or troub depending on what group you happen to be in. Oh, and my aa setup is agi 4 5 4 4 1 and sta 4 4 8 8 (i put the extra points in group deaggro for the rare occasions when im not in mt group) . I use the circlet of living fire, Pris 2, Bone clasped girdle, bracelet of thule, mystical orb of the invoker, and fitzpitzle's misty protector for proc gear. Int line in my opinion is a waste of points because the crit chance simply does not raise your dps by enough to justify the points and while volatile magic combined with perpetuality is a nice increase in dps it is not worth sacrificing the group buffs from the sta line. Furthermore when you mix perpetuality and volatile magic you start putting your dps so high that you have to worry about pulling aggro (we generate more aggro than other classes of course because of all the drain/stun components on our spells) Even with a dirge and myself in the mt group occasionally i pull aggro when im going nuts and parsing over 1k. Not very often but it happens. Keep in mind I'm not talking about whether or not coercers are a dps class, what I'm sayin is that I dont care if we arent. It is Still your job to do all the dps you can while providing the raid with the benefits of your class. That goes for anyone. <div></div><p>Message Edited by Kiterra on <span class=date_text>08-06-2006</span> <span class=time_text>11:19 PM</span>

[Raidi Sovin'faile]

<P>This is a question about what is more important on the raid. From an AA perspective, which choices will give more benefit to the raid. Is it additional personal DPS? Is it surivability? Is it quicker/more CC and hate management?</P> <P>On a grand scale... a raid parse can be anywhere from 8,500 to 12,000 DPS or higher. How much more DPS are you personally getting with the AA choices? 300? 500? That's a drop in the bucket (less than 5% increase). Basically, whether you have that DPS or not won't make a difference in how well a raid goes. Other classes.. yes, it would be important to eek out as much DPS as you can. But this is definately a "one man" issue here, since there's likely 1 maybe 2 of our class in the raid.</P> <P>Compared to what else we can bring, like 40-50% more hate for the MT, and 23% less hate for up to 5 others. This can equate to a heckuva lot of DPS boost. Regen, which maintains that DPS. CC, which reduces damage on the MT, meaning surviving the fights.</P> <P>If a coercer dies on the raid, unless everyone can quickly respond to it, it can mean a wipe nearly as bad as the MT going down.</P> <P> </P> <P>If you can survive perfectly fine without AAs.. and you can land spells perfectly fine without AAs... then by all means, go for DPS, since that's about the only other options you have with AAs.</P> <P>The only thing that all raid AA setups should absolutely have is the Stamina line. Empathic Aura and Touch of Empathy are the only truly constant raid helping abilities from AAs. Really, raid coercer should have Stamina 4, 4, 8 or 4, 8, 8... from there, it's really a matter of how well geared you are, and personal preference.</P>

[Kiterra]

<div></div>A couple quick comments, As for the wis line, The skill bonuses like disruption ect are pretty useless when it comes to landing spells. The bonus they give is negligible. The resists you pickup from aa's are better picked up from resist gear, of which there is more than enough in game to get any particular resist to 12k group buffed. that said I half agree with the above poster about how the only important line is sta and for the other half do what you will.... Yes sta is the most important line for chanters, however, to think of an extra 500 dps gained from any particular player as being a drop in the bucket is quite a bad way of looking at things really imo. You have to understand that if you think that way, the other chanters on raid think that way, and the dirges and troubs think that way.... Thats alot of dps youre losing out on.  Imagine for a moment, that you have 3 chanters and 2 bards on a raid (which is how many we often have on a raid). All of them have the mindset that, "hey im not dps, im here for utility so I'm just gonna be happy with my buffs ect". So each one of these guys does 300-400 dps. Thats 1500-2000dps from 5 people on raid. Now, imagine those same people have the mindset that not only are they utility but they have a responsibility to put out as much dps as possible while still doing their respective jobs on the raid. Each one of these people would have the potential to put out about 1k dps each (i do it, our dirges do it, its possible). Suddenly you have 5 people putting out 5000 dps total, an increase of 2500-3000. Now that, is not a drop in the bucket. On a high dps raid 2000 dps can account for a 15-20% increase of the raids total dps. (our raids parse 13-18k ish depending on the encounter). Basically what I'm trying to say is, every person on the raid needs to be adding what they can to the raids total dps, one person alone won't make a huge difference, but along with your fellow utility classes, if everyone is trying their hardest, it adds up fast. Also, you dont have to lose anything important to pick up the extra dps. As i said in my previous post, you can parse high as a chanter and still have all the buffs up that you need to have up. Having your cake and eating it too ftw. <div></div><p>Message Edited by Kiterra on <span class=date_text>08-07-2006</span> <span class=time_text>01:43 AM</span>

[Raidi Sovin'faile]

<P>Like I said, this is a "one man decision" issue. Two coercers is one coercer too many on a raid. Honestly. I don't like it, but I'm not blind.</P> <P>Illusionists are superior at laying down DPS, and their common role in raids allows for more of a DPS position (group buffed for dps for their position in the raid).</P> <P>Bards are a different beast entirely. AA choices allow for more DPS comparitively (choosing Wisdom over Int for Enchanters is basically a "all or nothing" DPS or Survival choice). DPS choices are a given for bards by comparison.</P> <P> </P> <P>Really, we are talking about most likely the only Coercer on a raid, in a non-dps buffed group (MT group), chosen for his aggro management and crowd control and regen. Mostly hate management. When I play my Bruiser, Dirge, and Brigand... I take DPS into consideration. Not so much with my Coercer.</P> <P>It seriously is just a "one guy doing 500 more DPS" situation. At least, that's how it has been in every single raid I've been on (with 3 different guilds, and multiple late night pickup raids). Posting on the Coercer board, I'm talking to Coercers, suggesting what's important for a <EM>Coercer</EM>. If I were talking about Illusionist or Bard AAs, I'd give a different answer...</P> <P> </P>

[Tanatus]

<P>Secondary coercer is bless and luxury that most guild cannt afford - you dont need or want more then 1 tank for raid (any raid that have more then 2 fighters unless they zerkers wasting raid space) - thats true but coercer? - nah 2 better then 1 surely</P> <P>Why? here we go ....</P> <P>HUGE DPS boost for zerkers ... and we all know that properly buffed zerker do MORE DPS then any summoner or wizard (about as much as warlock) and for predators/rogues</P> <P>Mana manipulation allow coecer keep scouts up and running - combine in 1 group coercer+dirge+fury+3 zerkers and you got untimate melee DPS group for AE (replace zerkers with assasins and it will hold true vs. single target)</P> <P>Coercer do MORE DPS then  any given brawler and about as much as wizard nowdays (well say lazy wizard). I am constantly compete on DPS ladder with brigands/swahes/wizards - I am loosing only to zerkers, assasins, warlocks and at occasion to rangers, very rare to wizards</P>

[Kiterra]

How much are you parsing on raids tan? <div></div>

[Tanatus]

<P>500-1000DPS petless - generally speaking the longer fight the higher I am sitting on ladder, the harder fight the higher I am sitting on ladder... Ideally  to get on top I need encounter that barrage and AE a lot</P> <P>2.5K+ with right pet (lol to bad only 2 place where I can get pet of that kind namely LOA and Mark 4)</P>

[Kiterra]

Kewl kewl, ya from the way you were talkin about outparsing monks and wizards I thought you were talkin bout doin 1500dps petless LoL i was like zomg... But seriously though your brawlers and wizards are slackers, our monk parses like 1200-1400 and our wizards parse up there too 1200-1700+ depending on the situation ect of course, I sit around 750-900 on single target and about 1050 on groups (petless) I definately cant touch our "tier 1" dps classes, though i do make the parses pretty often =D. I hadn't really thought about tossing on grimfazzle staff over pris 2 before cuz the proc is higher... I'm definately gonna have to try that out on our next raid, If i can break 1100dps petless I will be a happy coercer hah. Oh theres also a proc wrist in Nizara you should keep a lookout for. <div></div>

[Tanatus]

<P>Dont foget that you are sitting in the MT group which is not perfect for DPSing.... per se</P> <P>If you get in your group Troubadur+Inquisitor you will easy surpass DPS of brawlers (ANY brawlers) and about to match DPS of most of the wizards</P>

[mckayormac]

I know somoene earlier said something about counterblade, But has anyone done extensive research and testing? I'm currently a MT coercer and I spec Agi/Stam. I was wondering if the counterblade is anything that could help in special situations.<div></div>

[Mausie]

<div></div><div></div><div></div>I did a respec of achievements today to Agi 4 8 7 6 1 and Sta 4 4 8 after much thought and research on the boards.  I haven't tested it yet but I think I will be happy with my choice.Before respec I had Agi 4 5 4 4 1 Sta 4 4 4 4 1.  I spend time soloing, grouping, and raiding.  I greatly enjoy the speed of the Agi line including Chronosiphoning and Perpetuality.  The end of the Sta line just wasn't of much use to me since I can control any adds that I pull and my groups typically pull by having someone get close to mobs.  The hate reduction part never helped when I tried to use it just for that.  I have tried the wis line and it is not for me.  I do not have a problem getting my resists high enough, and I did not find Daydream to be useful to me.  I raid at least a few days a week and am practically always in the MT group.  I want to be group useful, and raid useful, but I do spend most of my time in raids dpsing, so I was really considering going with the Int line, which I have not tried yet.After much research, though, and since I normally have at least 2 healers in my group, I basically did a 180 and decided to max heal crits and put the remainder of my points into speed.  (It's kinda funny to me that I actually did a respec with the idea that I would drop the Sta line entirely, but I just couldn't get rid of the group usefulness of the heal crits since dps is never my top priority.)  The group hate reduction buff is useful but the % is so small that I decided to not have it this time around.  I don't use Touch of Empathy as much as I probably should, so I didn't add any extra points there.For any who are wondering, let me give a little more detail on the Agi line since I couldn't find anything consolidated about it.Chronomancer's Agility  - 24 at rank 4 - helpful especially if you charm oftenChronosiphoning (<img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> - Increases my casting speed and decreases target's casting speed by 30% - not hard at all to get used to using this every time it is up and it makes a big difference in speed when you lead off with this and build up your perpetuality bonusesChronomotion (7) - Increases recovery speed by 28% and defense by 12.1 - I couldn't find exact information on this so I tested myself.  I camped out when I trained the 5th, 6th, and 7th points, and recovery time went to 0.3 secs after the 7th point.  Training 5 and 6 in this ability gave no change in recovery time.  I know a 0.1 second increase is not very big, but I think it will help when I get a resist of an important cast, like trying to prevent a wipe with Amnesia for instance.Chronology (6) - Increases casting speed of caster by 10.8% - I put my 2 extra points here.  I was expecting a change in the casting speed for Sonic Boom (which was 2.7 secs at rank 4 and still is at rank 6) but there was none, but Domination now has a casting time of 5.4 secs (was 5.5 secs at rank 4).  It's not great, but for me it will still help some.Perpetuality - This ability is great.  I just wish I didn't run out of spells and/or power.  <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><p>Message Edited by Mausie on <span class=date_text>09-05-2006</span> <span class=time_text>04:49 PM</span>

[teknoide]

<DIV>I like to thing that some class have a specific purpose in a raid party not all but most of them. Coercer are not dps class no doubt of that (playing brigand or assassin in raid party and easy to uderstand what is a dps class), even if perpetuallity and the buff dps AA could range me to 1k dps i'm not sure it's the better way for our class.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Our class is a control class and now with the stiffle stun ability on epic target, the possibility of delaying AE, mezz epic, i prefere be sure to not have to support a resist on a stun stiffle cast.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So, even if it's not usefull all the time</DIV> <DIV>>> max subju skill and resist line</DIV> <DIV>>> max critical heal and decrease hate line. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Even if the subujugation skill is not always useful, prefere to be sure on mezzing target or delay an ae when i have to do.</DIV>

[Awsomeo420]

To each there own.... iv done many defrent aa set ups.... iv had the resists at 800 iv had full agil speced....iv had the deagro... honeslty 7% deagro is not worth it id take 11.7% spell crit over 7% deagro anyday id also say the 800 resists isnt worth it aswell with raid gear the best bang for ur buck and theres a few others out there with this is 4 8 agil (30% casting haste) 4 4 8 stam (u get 1k deagro with toe and u get maxed heal crits) then 4 4 4 8 int ( u get like that uninteruptable thingy and  11.7% spell crit) that aa setup rocks for me atleast, wouldnt have it any other way  btw this setup leaves u with 1 extra point for w/e

[Leawyn]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Awsomeo420 wrote:<BR> To each there own.... iv done many defrent aa set ups.... iv had the resists at 800 iv had full agil speced....iv had the deagro... honeslty 7% deagro is not worth it id take 11.7% spell crit over 7% deagro anyday id also say the 800 resists isnt worth it aswell with raid gear the best bang for ur buck and theres a few others out there with this is 4 8 agil (30% casting haste) 4 4 8 stam (u get 1k deagro with toe and u get maxed heal crits) then 4 4 4 8 int ( u get like that uninteruptable thingy and  11.7% spell crit) that aa setup rocks for me atleast, wouldnt have it any other way  btw this setup leaves u with 1 extra point for w/e<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>That is almost identical to the set up I am currently working towards. Glad to know someone else thinks along the same lines I do.

[Cylence]

<DIV>Oh boy!!  Coercer DPS!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Let's start with how I'm specced:  Agi 4/5/8/8/1  Stamina 4/4/8</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Why: </DIV> <DIV>Agility.  Perpetuality Rules my world.  I love the decrease on recovery timers.  I love the fast casting timers.  I spam the living hell out of stroke.  I have proc gear that procs 3-4 times a fight apiece, and it's lots of fun.  When I say proc gear, I'm only missing 2 pieces that I dream about.  Depending on the fight, the situation, and the resists, I can have up to 6-7 pieces on. </DIV> <DIV>Stamina.  I'm normally MT group, so I kept the heal crits so that our 2 healers can heal more efficiently so we can run with 5-6 healers instead of 7-8.  I have that single target tap dehate to get whomever, I normally tap a healer a few times a fight, or if I'm dps grouped up, I tap the scouts/zerkers/etc.  Ocassionally I get the lovin of a dps group, and get my fury vim on so I can be happy.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Why not wisdom you ask?  I can survive aes.  Normally 2-3 times in my gear.  My healers are swift enough that I tend not to die if I draw agro, and my resists rock as is.  Why lose that sweet dps.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Why not Intel?  I don't mind the free offhand.  I still hover about 7000-7100 power with it.  Do I really really want a bladed staff of the elements?  DUH.  But I cope and am happy with my agi<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  Besides, when I channel, I can have more power to give people.  Right.  If I haven't dropped it nuking.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Parses:  My top parse, post lu 24, no pets, currently is 2300.  Thank you LoA.  My average parses run about 800-1400.  It all depends on how much effort, and how long the fight lasts, and what kind of fight.  (AOE ftw)  If the fight is quick, you're not going to see me on the parse.  Duh.  We have all those nice procs.  That fight lasts almost a minute, and you see me 3-4.  Zerker, Necro, Wizzies, one Assassin, and this one freak of a guardian we have (Thank you Khamelion with your gosh blessed think you're a ranger dps) give me a run for my money.  And sometimes I win, and sometimes I lose!!!  And this sick bruiser.  I like to pretend he doesn't exist.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>What's my job in a raid?:  My 49% hate buff.  My channel.  My mana cloak.  My 74% DPS buff.  My 60 point per tic mana regen.  Is DPS my job specifically?  No.  But I like to think it is.  The mobs die, they die fast, they die often.  Is my parse alright?  Sure, it's ok.  When we're cranking out 23k parses, I want my name in the top 7 too.  But what my primary job is, is that intangible, I add to dps overall/hate holding overall/I have sexy mana regen.  I want a 2nd coercer sometimes, I'd like to see that dps group be happy again (I hear them tell me they miss me allll the time).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Is there a right and a wrong way to spec those aas?:  If you like to dps, then do it.  I have the luxury of having a guild that knows what makes me happy, and tries to give it to me.  Everyone plays their class their way.  There is no right there is no wrong in my mind.  I've talked to chanters that charm, mez...I have this pocket aoe stun I prefer.  That's how it works.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Bottom line?  We can be dps.  I can outparse that wizzie if I put my mind to it and wear the right gear.  We just all don't think that way<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>AND THAT IS OK!!!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Oasis.Kwiet</DIV>

[Tanatus]

<P>FYI </P> <P>By giving DPS buff out you cutting out balls for warlocks and brigands who could use your De-Agro buff and THAT will boost raid DPS a lot more then wimpy +74% DPS</P>

[Mage-Apprentice]

There is a bardclass for these brigands and warlocks

[Cylence]

<DIV>well<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>dps buff on mt and dps buff on assassin/swash = necessities..and we normally have one other melee in </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>those warlocks have that there troub<3</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>*grins*</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>dps group =</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>brigand, zerker, spare swash, brawlers...etc...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>trsut me, nice of a parse as a wizzie with full dehate<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Mackrala]

<DIV>We run with 2 coercers at all times. One in mt group, one in melee dps group. Harmonius group to important personal. As the non-mt coercer I went with AA lines that increase my dps. Let's say on Cheldrak (which we downed last night) I was 3rd on the parse,,,hmmm, I won't complain.</DIV>

[Leawyn]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Tanatus wrote:<BR> <P>FYI </P> <P>By giving DPS buff out you cutting out balls for warlocks and brigands who could use your De-Agro buff and THAT will boost raid DPS a lot more then wimpy +74% DPS</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>I usually give dps to the MT, and de-hate to two dps that don't have hate transfers (wizards, warlocks or brigands come to mind)

[Kiterra]

Usually I'm the only coercer on raid, I'm in the mt group, and we usually have one wizard and one warlock. So I usually give harm link to the wiz and the warlock, dps mods to the dirge the guard and the crusader/monk in g1, then throw up clarity and hate mod and sta line deaggro and heal crits. Thats for trash stuff. Sometimes I will sacrifice the dps mods for our stat buffs or max mana pool buffs depending on the fight... Something like cheldrak I'll drop a dps mod and a harm link so i can throw up the stat buff (so the tank has the extra agi for avoidance /shrug it equals like 3% or somethin, plus the extra power for me for when i channel near the end of the fight), and since chel drak is so long I feel like the extra power from the other group buff is kinda nice. You basically just need to consider whats goin on in your raid to decide what buffs to put up. We're not like some classes that just have their group buffs they can click and go. You actually have to consider what classes you have that need or could use a harm link and whether or not they are actually gonna pump out the dps to need it on the encounters youre looking at. IE somethin like LoA the warlock is definately gonna need some harm link love lol. Or like a brigand on chel drak ect.