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Old 05-06-2009, 09:19 PM   #31
QuestingCrafter

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I can but imagine the scene -- set your minds there, a "first thing in the morning" meeting between these two ...

Producer009: Last night, in channel, people were bragging about solo shard farming with FD. It took me a while to figure out that's what they meant by, "flopping". We never meant for that to be possible. Fix it, fix it, fix it -- now, now, now!

Developer162: Okay ... yes, I can imagine how that might happen. Let me confab with the rest of my team, we can come up with a balanced solution today or tomorrow, and it shouldn't torq too many players off.

Producer009: No! You don't get it -- this exploit WILL END EVERQUEST FOREVER. We have to do something NOW!

Developer162: We could ... ahhh ... make the key mobs triple-up ...

Producer009: Good start! What else?

Developer162: Uhhh, maybe give them some proc or buff that makes them effectively un-solo-able?

Producer009: Perfect! Make it stun them and knock them back when they do anything -- attack, heal, anything. And it disarms them. Maybe it should break gear too like Leviathan. And it should affect anyone even NEAR the key mob -- doesn't matter if they engage it or not. Yeah, like an aura -- you know, like on my Paladin in Wor-

Developer162: Umm, what about when a group tries to kill the mob?

Producer009: Okay, no gear breaking. And they can auto-attack. But keep all the other stuff in. Do you hear me?! I want NO chance of anyone killing a key mob solo. I don't care about anything else.

Developer162: What if it means that people trying to get their first shards can't kill the key-drop mob now?

Producer009: Well ... they should have got their shard gear by now anyway. Now go, go, go!

Developer162: Ich dien ...

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Old 05-07-2009, 03:31 AM   #32
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To funny SMILEY) tbh, I dont see why this even needed a fix ?? I have abruiser myself, but instead of getting lockount on a zone for a shard, I would rather save it and get locked fro killing the entire zone.. if people want money, there are lots of ways to get it, so if they really had to do this, I'd say go fix castle also, fix PR, fix the free money from shinies a lvl 80 can get in lower lvl zones without aggro... Lots of things needs to be "fixed" if you want to avoid people from farming for gold, and this was defo not the best place to start.. 1 grp PR and farm Castle have made me more money than anything else so far, not the shard flopping or anything..
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Old 05-07-2009, 04:24 AM   #33
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I can not understand how plat can be interesting for anyone, including develloppers. There is just to much out there...(maybe as collectors item??)

I can not understand why people would want to limit the fun someone can have trying to solo stuff if they want to do that. (looking at the challange of it)

What I can understand is that everyone should be able to do it......and I think everyone could do it with the effort required....(hell, might need tinkering or whatever, but i think most classes could do it)

So why is this even getting attention from the dev's???

I mean, do something usefull like taking + focus off off gear for classes that can not use it...or something else thats really messed up...I bet there is plenty of that stuff around.

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Old 05-07-2009, 05:37 AM   #34
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Quite amusing to see devellopers fixing things that nobody cares of and refuse to address any of the numerous major game issues.

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Old 05-07-2009, 06:36 AM   #35
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Would have prefered them to move the key mob away from other aggroable mobs, or have them all start out non-aggro with this change.

This change may stop the solo zone farming, but it will likely also harm the lower end groups experience.   Not every group that forms can handle an add, and in many cases these will add on the group during pull.  Certainly surprised my group in Befallen - Caverns of the Afflicted, was not a problem but was a very [censored expression of surprise] moment.

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Old 05-07-2009, 10:09 AM   #36
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Best detrimental ever! It's great to see all those bragging floppers being nerfed and have to play like everyone else

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Old 05-07-2009, 11:07 AM   #37
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Thunndar316 wrote:

[email protected] wrote:

Thunndar316 wrote:

Making the Key mobs 3 up Heriocs would have done the trick.  There is no need for that ridiculous det

A brawler worth his salt would manage the 3up solo if that mob has no specials.  Stun lock burn + dev fist = dead heroic.

So punish everyone because a few players might be able to FD their way to a free shard.  That's just [Removed for Content] stupid.

If this ability is the make or break difference between even a duo from doing a shard run, that duo needs to look at themselves pretty hard.

It is relatively short durration, and only affects the aggro target.

In fact in the 2nd ring event in the harder guk instance lastnight we got the key mob as an add with one of those groups of 12 other mobs.  Tanking the 12 pulled mobs + the revamped ^^^ shard mob with this detrimental was still very trivial for a group.  I never lost aggro on any of the 13 mobs engaged even though my target got cleared and I got disarmed several times.

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Old 05-07-2009, 11:20 AM   #38
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I have seen some poor performing PuG's.  I have also seen some really great ones.  My concern is for the already poor performing ones.   Two or three decent players can pull a PuG through most zones, but sometimes a group won't even have one decent player.

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Old 05-07-2009, 11:25 AM   #39
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[email protected] wrote:

I have seen some poor performing PuG's.  I have also seen some really great ones.  My concern is for the already poor performing ones.   Two or three decent players can pull a PuG through most zones, but sometimes a group won't even have one decent player.

I understand that.  But if this new key mob kills a group, that group wasn't going to kill any named in DF either.

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Old 05-07-2009, 01:58 PM   #40
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This is a poor solution to a non-existent problem.

I'm in a small guild with only 4 players at lvl80. We have played our style for over 3 years, slowly developing our toons and enjoying all the amazing amount of content. (We have even gone on a few raids with larger guilds) We have managed to get our 4 lvl80 mains all in T1 shard armor with help from friends and doing the easier runs with 3-5 guildmates. (This involves mentoring to the lowest member in our group, we have 4 at 75 or higher) We have only obtained the bonus shard from the chest 3 or 4 times. I don't think we are "weak" or "poor" players, but these runs are HARD. I don't mind that. They should be hard.

The problem is that the key mobs are now ridiculously hard (impossible?) for our little guild. We tried 5 times to 4-man the jesterling in CoA last night. Wipe, wipe, wipe. We could 3-man him before, although it took us 3 months to get him the 1st time...We had to figure it all out. I don't care if a brawler could solo him. I don't care if you "believe" it should take a perfect group of 6. I don't want to play a game where everyone must play exactly the same way to achieve a goal. Don't get me wrong, I'm not one of those who wants fabled/raid rewards for group or solo play. No way. I just want a level playing field.

Pleas do not design your game around the expoiters. Please do not design your game around a proscribed group make-up. Please do not design the game around whining and jealousy. The majority of players do not post here or even read these forums. You never hear from them. They are busy enjoying this game and figuring out how to get the most out of it. Let them...please.

Casual play, hard core play, farmers, plat sales, etc....  None of this effects me. It will never effect me. Don't think you need to "fix" everything that people whine about. You will definitely impact someone's game enjoyment in a negative way, and you will never..ever.. please the whiners. You will never...ever... stop people from figuring out ways around your constraints. You will, however, alienate the larger portion of your player base.

Reduced group size is a fun way to challenge yourself or sometimes a necessity. When we figure out a way to achieve something with our own unique challenges, someone will complain about it, then you change it. Why?

Please just leave the game alone for a while and let us play it. It is an amazing game and holds a great deal of promise for the future.

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Old 05-07-2009, 02:09 PM   #41
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Its not just brawlers that were able to solo their way to shard chests, nor was it only raid geared players.

This effect is trivial to a small group, let alone a full group. If you are unable to deal with this, then you do not deserve any void shard gear.

Its that simple.

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Old 05-07-2009, 02:17 PM   #42
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For all SOE has talked about opening better lines of communication and keeping players more involved, this change belies SOE's words. There is no excuse for making a change like this unanounced, and the change itself reeks of pettiness and developer arrogance. This change is among the worst behavior shown by SOE in recent months.

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Old 05-07-2009, 02:19 PM   #43
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Dasein wrote:

This change is among the worst behavior shown by SOE in recent months.

Its not even close imo.

It was unannounced, and that sucks, but thats about it.

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Old 05-07-2009, 02:22 PM   #44
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Dasein wrote:

For all SOE has talked about opening better lines of communication and keeping players more involved, this change belies SOE's words. There is no excuse for making a change like this unanounced, and the change itself reeks of pettiness and developer arrogance. This change is among the worst behavior shown by SOE in recent months.

update: I just soloed the key mob as a paladin

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Old 05-07-2009, 02:24 PM   #45
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Noaani wrote:

Dasein wrote:

This change is among the worst behavior shown by SOE in recent months.

Its not even close imo.

It was unannounced, and that sucks, but thats about it.

It's not just that it was unannounced, but that it was intended to specifically eliminate a playstyle and does so in a way that comes off as simple bullying by the devs. That a few classes could solo key mobs ina  few instances is hardly a major issue, and certainly not the sort of game-breaking exploit that demands an immediate and unannounced change like this. Rather, the devs could have chosen to involve the players, and seek a mutually agreeable solution in the spirit of the cooperation they talked about in the wake of the fighter revamp. unfortunately, when given the chance, SOE reverted back to it's old ways and so it undermines whatever good faith they may have built up with this improved communication initiative. SOE had the chance to act better and blew it.

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Old 05-07-2009, 02:31 PM   #46
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i do wish they would have just put in a mob difficult enough that a person couldn't solo it.

the initial ^'s they had in place were just a complete joke... like they wanted all this to happen.

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Old 05-07-2009, 02:34 PM   #47
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therodge wrote:

Dasein wrote:

For all SOE has talked about opening better lines of communication and keeping players more involved, this change belies SOE's words. There is no excuse for making a change like this unanounced, and the change itself reeks of pettiness and developer arrogance. This change is among the worst behavior shown by SOE in recent months.

update: I just soloed the key mob as a paladin

INC Pally nerf!

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Old 05-07-2009, 02:48 PM   #48
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[email protected] wrote:

i do wish they would have just put in a mob difficult enough that a person couldn't solo it.

the initial ^'s they had in place were just a complete joke... like they wanted all this to happen.

Key mob difficulty varied considerably from zone to zone. Also, some key mobs are rather deep in the zone, and cannot be reached without killing prior named, while in other cases, the keys and chests are available very near the beginning. If they wanted to buff up a couple of these mobs, and made an announcement about it, that would be fine, but to make a ninja change like this is not something we should tolerate. We need to hold SOE to their own standards.

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Old 05-07-2009, 03:03 PM   #49
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Dasein wrote:

It's not just that it was unannounced, but that it was intended to specifically eliminate a playstyle and does so in a way that comes off as simple bullying by the devs.  ...

Eliminate a playstyle?

Solo - Kills solo tagged mobs of equal and a bit above level, with mediocre rewards up to legendary from some named.

Group - Kills mobs designed for 3+ members and gets rewards up to Fabled from group flagged mobs

Raid - Kills mobs designed around 12+ players and gets rewards up to Mythical.

Which of these 3 playstyles was "killed" by the change?

A solo player ONLY going to a zone to farm keys for chests is the only person being affected by this change. If you believe flopping to chests is a playstyle, then you are sadly mistaken. In fact, FD should get a change that prevents those that use it from also gathering any sort of rewards by bypassing content intended for groups. Just like there are see invis mobs, there should be "unfooled" mobs that will wail on the FD person reguardless of how many times they FD.

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Old 05-07-2009, 03:08 PM   #50
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Birn wrote:

Best detrimental ever! It's great to see all those bragging floppers being nerfed and have to play like everyone else

Players in MMO's certainly are mean spirited.If you like grouping and have fun doing that, what concern it is of yours how others play the game so long as they are not negatively impacting you?

It's like we've returned to the days of EQ1.To this day I remember that games CM's response to the ranger* communities concerns over survivability:"Don't attack."This key mob change feels like a giant "bleep" you from the devs to the players.

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Old 05-07-2009, 03:12 PM   #51
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Jelad wrote:

This is a poor solution to a non-existent problem.

I'm in a small guild with only 4 players at lvl80. We have played our style for over 3 years, slowly developing our toons and enjoying all the amazing amount of content. (We have even gone on a few raids with larger guilds) We have managed to get our 4 lvl80 mains all in T1 shard armor with help from friends and doing the easier runs with 3-5 guildmates. (This involves mentoring to the lowest member in our group, we have 4 at 75 or higher) We have only obtained the bonus shard from the chest 3 or 4 times. I don't think we are "weak" or "poor" players, but these runs are HARD. I don't mind that. They should be hard.

The problem is that the key mobs are now ridiculously hard (impossible?) for our little guild. We tried 5 times to 4-man the jesterling in CoA last night. Wipe, wipe, wipe. We could 3-man him before, although it took us 3 months to get him the 1st time...We had to figure it all out. I don't care if a brawler could solo him. I don't care if you "believe" it should take a perfect group of 6. I don't want to play a game where everyone must play exactly the same way to achieve a goal. Don't get me wrong, I'm not one of those who wants fabled/raid rewards for group or solo play. No way. I just want a level playing field.

Pleas do not design your game around the expoiters. Please do not design your game around a proscribed group make-up. Please do not design the game around whining and jealousy. The majority of players do not post here or even read these forums. You never hear from them. They are busy enjoying this game and figuring out how to get the most out of it. Let them...please.

Casual play, hard core play, farmers, plat sales, etc.... None of this effects me. It will never effect me. Don't think you need to "fix" everything that people whine about. You will definitely impact someone's game enjoyment in a negative way, and you will never..ever.. please the whiners. You will never...ever... stop people from figuring out ways around your constraints. You will, however, alienate the larger portion of your player base.

Reduced group size is a fun way to challenge yourself or sometimes a necessity. When we figure out a way to achieve something with our own unique challenges, someone will complain about it, then you change it. Why?

Please just leave the game alone for a while and let us play it. It is an amazing game and holds a great deal of promise for the future.

Spot on.

If the devs deign to read any responses in this thread, read this one.

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Old 05-07-2009, 03:13 PM   #52
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Blackluck2 wrote:

Birn wrote:

Best detrimental ever! It's great to see all those bragging floppers being nerfed and have to play like everyone else

Players in MMO's certainly are mean spirited.If you like grouping and have fun doing that, what concern it is of yours how others play the game so long as they are not negatively impacting you?

It's like we've returned to the days of EQ1.To this day I remember that games CM's response to the ranger* communities concerns over survivability:"Don't attack."This key mob change feels like a giant "bleep" you from the devs to the players.

It may seem like nitpicking, but people soloing shards or harvesting shinies in their own instances is a not inconsiderable source of server lag, from what I've heard. Given how horrific lag can be in some instances it's probably one of the larger reasons for cracking down on them.

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Old 05-07-2009, 03:23 PM   #53
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[email protected] wrote:

Elessara wrote:

Where's it from/what mob casts it?

Ele~

The key mobs are now significantly beefed up, including the use of this spell.  The idea is to prevent some classes from solo farming the key chest shards, which was having unbalancing effect on class parity.

I know you are kidding..  

If there was anything resembling class parity in this game every class would be equally desirable when it came to raid or group time.

It is exactly as another poster said.  Plain and simple jealous whining from a class that does not have issues like this at a class that has become for the most part a red headed stepchild and is out doing about the only thing they can do half the time.

It's one shard.. 

Now that they have whined the dev's into wasting time doing something so trivial they can go back to complaining about how the dev's do stupid trivial things instead of "fixing" game breaking things with  their classes.

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Old 05-07-2009, 03:30 PM   #54
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This is one of the BEST posts I've read on this board

Jelad wrote:

This is a poor solution to a non-existent problem.

I'm in a small guild with only 4 players at lvl80. We have played our style for over 3 years, slowly developing our toons and enjoying all the amazing amount of content. (We have even gone on a few raids with larger guilds) We have managed to get our 4 lvl80 mains all in T1 shard armor with help from friends and doing the easier runs with 3-5 guildmates. (This involves mentoring to the lowest member in our group, we have 4 at 75 or higher) We have only obtained the bonus shard from the chest 3 or 4 times. I don't think we are "weak" or "poor" players, but these runs are HARD. I don't mind that. They should be hard.

The problem is that the key mobs are now ridiculously hard (impossible?) for our little guild. We tried 5 times to 4-man the jesterling in CoA last night. Wipe, wipe, wipe. We could 3-man him before, although it took us 3 months to get him the 1st time...We had to figure it all out. I don't care if a brawler could solo him. I don't care if you "believe" it should take a perfect group of 6. I don't want to play a game where everyone must play exactly the same way to achieve a goal. Don't get me wrong, I'm not one of those who wants fabled/raid rewards for group or solo play. No way. I just want a level playing field.

Pleas do not design your game around the expoiters. Please do not design your game around a proscribed group make-up. Please do not design the game around whining and jealousy. The majority of players do not post here or even read these forums. You never hear from them. They are busy enjoying this game and figuring out how to get the most out of it. Let them...please.

Casual play, hard core play, farmers, plat sales, etc....  None of this effects me. It will never effect me. Don't think you need to "fix" everything that people whine about. You will definitely impact someone's game enjoyment in a negative way, and you will never..ever.. please the whiners. You will never...ever... stop people from figuring out ways around your constraints. You will, however, alienate the larger portion of your player base.

Reduced group size is a fun way to challenge yourself or sometimes a necessity. When we figure out a way to achieve something with our own unique challenges, someone will complain about it, then you change it. Why?

Please just leave the game alone for a while and let us play it. It is an amazing game and holds a great deal of promise for the future.

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Old 05-07-2009, 03:37 PM   #55
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Dasein wrote:

That a few classes could solo key mobs ina  few instances is hardly a major issue, and certainly not the sort of game-breaking exploit that demands an immediate and unannounced change like this.

The developers do not want shards to be obtainable in any means other than by completing the content as it was designed, so for this reason, anyone being able to solo a shard chest is a bad thing.

I have no specifics, but I do remember talk of higher quality items going on shard merchants during beta. It only makes sense that they would not implement higher quality items via shards is those shards were able to be obtained in such an easy manner.

IMO, gray shards are next, then we may start to see some nice items on the shard merchants.

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Old 05-07-2009, 03:41 PM   #56
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Noaani wrote:

Dasein wrote:

That a few classes could solo key mobs ina  few instances is hardly a major issue, and certainly not the sort of game-breaking exploit that demands an immediate and unannounced change like this.

The developers do not want shards to be obtainable in any means other than by completing the content as it was designed, so for this reason, anyone being able to solo a shard chest is a bad thing.

I have no specifics, but I do remember talk of higher quality items going on shard merchants during beta. It only makes sense that they would not implement higher quality items via shards is those shards were able to be obtained in such an easy manner.

IMO, gray shards are next, then we may start to see some nice items on the shard merchants.

Just in time to be made obsolete by a new expansion.

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Old 05-07-2009, 03:53 PM   #57
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Freliant wrote:

In fact, FD should get a change that prevents those that use it from also gathering any sort of rewards by bypassing content intended for groups. Just like there are see invis mobs, there should be "unfooled" mobs that will wail on the FD person reguardless of how many times they FD.

And thats why they need to put the FD nerf back in.  I fully support this.

For those that don't recall, it made FD a maintained effect that cancled when you stood up.  You refresh timer therefore didn't start until after you stood up and canceled the current FD.

This placed a burdon on the FD player to actually survive in an area for x seconds before their ability refreshed.

Of course, this was viewed completely unreasonable by the brawler community....  So we leave it as is and open up further abuse as with the case of these shards and the chests in MM.

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Old 05-07-2009, 03:59 PM   #58
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Dasein wrote:

Noaani wrote:

Dasein wrote:

That a few classes could solo key mobs ina  few instances is hardly a major issue, and certainly not the sort of game-breaking exploit that demands an immediate and unannounced change like this.

The developers do not want shards to be obtainable in any means other than by completing the content as it was designed, so for this reason, anyone being able to solo a shard chest is a bad thing.

I have no specifics, but I do remember talk of higher quality items going on shard merchants during beta. It only makes sense that they would not implement higher quality items via shards is those shards were able to be obtained in such an easy manner.

IMO, gray shards are next, then we may start to see some nice items on the shard merchants.

Just in time to be made obsolete by a new expansion.

Just in time to be a basis for setting the difficulty on entry level mobs in the new expansion.

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Old 05-07-2009, 05:00 PM   #59
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Thanks for recognizing my 1st post on these boards. I appreciate it, sincerely. I have read them almost every day for over 3 years without being moved to argue or comment, but the trend is getting so bad that I felt it's time for calm voices to be heard. Most of us just want to play the game...as it is. We don't want to fight over solo/group arguments, because we do both (and enjoy them) We don't care about petty elitism, and we don't care how you play. We don't care if you can solo a key mob with your monk or pally. We are not envious of your gear, skills or accomplishments in this game. We just want to log in with our friends and play essentially the same game it was yesterday.

It's not just this "fix" that prompted my posting. It's the fact that this whine-fest is what the boards are becoming and that SOE is responding to this demographic. I began reading these boards just before I bought the game as they were extremely helpful in understanding the game and made me a better player. They definitely improved my enjoyment of the game. The threads were all about shared learning and improvement of the experience. I used to laugh at some of the petty threads that cropped up. I never thought anyone would take them seriously, let alone, modify the game because of them.

I would love to see the boards go back to that more positive trend, and I would love to see SOE talk to us all before deciding how we want the game changed. There are ways...

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Old 05-07-2009, 05:06 PM   #60
Noaani

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Jelad wrote:

We don't care about petty elitism, and we don't care how you play. We don't care if you can solo a key mob with your monk or pally. We are not envious of your gear, skills or accomplishments in this game. We just want to log in with our friends and play essentially the same game it was yesterday.

And some of us want a healthy game where appropriate effort is needed to get a reward, and appropriate rewards are offered for effort.

It would seem the devs agree with this.

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