EQ2 Forum Archive @ EQ2Wire

 

Go Back   EQ2 Forum Archive @ EQ2Wire > EverQuest II > General EverQuest II Discussion > General Gameplay Discussion
Members List Search Mark Forums Read

Notices

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 04-04-2008, 08:29 AM   #1
Thunderthyze

Loremaster
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Old South Wales
Posts: 2,050
Default

First off a couple or personal opinions:

1. The ethos of grouping (as distinct from soloing and raiding) has been damaged by the release of RoK.

2. Big guilds can be counter productive to encouraging grouping as there is just too much background noise in guild chat.

So, it occurs to me that the structure of the guilds on each server has changed quite a bit since we were given the guild recruitment tool. On most servers there are 2 or 3 big guilds then maybe 10~20 with more than 100 accounts. Thereafter the rosters tail off quite quickly.

In my belief this is because the guild recruitment tool only shows a handful of guilds.....the big ones and the raid guilds. So...if you're looking for a guild and you can't (or don't want to) get into a raid guild your options can be fairly limited.

This is why the big guilds get bigger. New guilds find it very difficult to break into the game and get new members. Ironically it is often the new guilds where all the grouping goes on as they are usually friends who play together regularly. Unfortunately, unless they are prepared to spam the chat channels looking for new members (not a good idea) they may soon become disillusioned and begin to drift away.

I used to lead a large guild that increased in size greatly around the time the recruitment tools were introduced and have to admit that influx was one of the reasons why the guild eventually failed. Our self image became eroded as the original ethos was diluted more and more.

I think if the game is to be improved it needs to encourage more grouping and in order to do that, in my opinion, medium sized guilds need to be encouraged and allowed to recruit, either via the existing recruitment window or by some other means.

__________________

Thunderthyze is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-04-2008, 09:09 AM   #2
Guy De Alsace

Loremaster
Guy De Alsace's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: England
Posts: 1,902
Default

The release of the Epics has turned all the emphasis from soloing and grouping to raiding. The promise of epics seems to have catalysed casual raid guilds into going all the way instead of simply knowing they cannot hope to kill end-game raid content as has been the previous case.

The problem there is that where casual guild members with regular raids were able to take it or leave it, now there is a two-tier membership where the ones who got into the raid cycle early are now too far ahead for any other guild members to take part in the push for Mythicals. Those left out are left to solo or occasionally help out at a camp for someone else's epic...

Not the fault of the guilds IMO, just the way the game has gone with RoK...

Guy De Alsace is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-04-2008, 09:30 AM   #3
Thunderthyze

Loremaster
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Old South Wales
Posts: 2,050
Default

Guy De Alsace wrote:

The release of the Epics has turned all the emphasis from soloing and grouping to raiding. The promise of epics seems to have catalysed casual raid guilds into going all the way instead of simply knowing they cannot hope to kill end-game raid content as has been the previous case.

The problem there is that where casual guild members with regular raids were able to take it or leave it, now there is a two-tier membership where the ones who got into the raid cycle early are now too far ahead for any other guild members to take part in the push for Mythicals. Those left out are left to solo or occasionally help out at a camp for someone else's epic...

Not the fault of the guilds IMO, just the way the game has gone with RoK...

I take your suggestion and will agree to a point. I still believe however if there was a viable means of advertising for smaller guilds those you describe as disenfranchised would be able to migrate to guilds of likeminded individuals and so restore the former status quo for casual raiders.
__________________

Thunderthyze is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-04-2008, 10:17 AM   #4
StormCinder

Loremaster
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 1,009
Default

I'm not sure that a lot of people join guilds based simply on the guild recruitment tool.  I would say more people join a guild based on a spammed recruitment message, or more likely...after grouping with someone (or a group of guildmates).

The most effective organized form of guild recruitment I have personally witnessed was this:

A group of 3-4 guildmates get together in a group for an instance/grouping that they see someone (or several others) looking for help with.  They join up, so now you have 4 guildies grouped with 1 or 2 non-guildies.  It's a well-organized 'PUG'... things go well, perhaps the guildies are even declining a lot of the drops so the non-guildies get more loot.  Meanwhile, dropping hints and information in groupchat about their guild, etc.  By the end of the PUG, the non-guildies are "all-in" to join the guild.

Granted there are different variations of the above, I would say that a great deal of organized guild recruitment happens via PUGs.  They can become the audition/interview for new members.

I would say that anyone that uses (or knows about) the guild recruitment tool probably knows the shortcomings of that tool when choosing a guild.

SC

__________________
______________________________________________
Hostis Humani Generis

cur·mudg·eon (kr-mjn)

n.

An ill-tempered person full of resentment and stubborn notions.
StormCinder is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-04-2008, 10:36 AM   #5
steelbadger

Loremaster
steelbadger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 816
Default

The problem is that very few people enter EQ2 without prior knowledge of the MMO genre. EQ2 is hardly high profile. Most players will join EQ2 after moving on from another MMO; WoW, EQ1 or one of the almost MMO's (like GW). Very few people come into the game and have to actually learn the basics of social interaction in a game and most will know that a Guild is the way to get ahead in the game. When I was leader of a guild the vast majority of new players we gained (after the release of the guild recruitment tool) where new players on new characters, players below lvl 20. The presence of the Guild Recruitment Tool discourages the "stay a free agent until you happen to meet some like minded people" approach as it gives the impression that this is how guilds recruit. Most new players will simply jump at the chance to be a member of a guild, this means that a new player will often find the recruitment tool while familiarizing themselves with the UI and then read through the guilds, and ping the one that sounds nice. Of course we know that the text on the recruitment tool is pretty pointless. Its less about what the guild is, and more about what the guild leader likes to think the guild is. Rarely do those two converge. But when a player new to EQ2 joins and sees the tool what are they supposed to think? "I'll just ignore this tool which is obviously designed so that I can get into a suitable guild to guide me through the rest of the game and hope to run into some nice people who will help me"? Not likely.
steelbadger is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-04-2008, 10:57 AM   #6
Jeepned2

Loremaster
Jeepned2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 595
Default

[email protected] wrote:

First off a couple or personal opinions:

1. The ethos of grouping (as distinct from soloing and raiding) has been damaged by the release of RoK.

2. Big guilds can be counter productive to encouraging grouping as there is just too much background noise in guild chat.

So, it occurs to me that the structure of the guilds on each server has changed quite a bit since we were given the guild recruitment tool. On most servers there are 2 or 3 big guilds then maybe 10~20 with more than 100 accounts. Thereafter the rosters tail off quite quickly.

In my belief this is because the guild recruitment tool only shows a handful of guilds.....the big ones and the raid guilds. So...if you're looking for a guild and you can't (or don't want to) get into a raid guild your options can be fairly limited.

This is why the big guilds get bigger. New guilds find it very difficult to break into the game and get new members. Ironically it is often the new guilds where all the grouping goes on as they are usually friends who play together regularly. Unfortunately, unless they are prepared to spam the chat channels looking for new members (not a good idea) they may soon become disillusioned and begin to drift away.

I'll response to these backwards.

2. This makes no sense to me.  Yes I keep guild chat up in the background in a separate window when I'm in a group, but don't ever remembering it being a problem for my group unless the guild has told me to be somewhere. My loyalty is to my guild first, then the group I'm in. Sorry, that's just the way it is.

1. I don't think that "damaged" is the right term. Changed it, yes. If you where completely happy with the way things were before then I can see where you don't like this.

I do agree that there should be more slots available on the recruiting page for more guilds to be there. I also feel it should be first come first serve for that list.

But what is really happening is that big guilds are going to get bigger.  Just the nature of the beast. People get tired of LFG all day and no group. Why? Because guilds tend to group inside guilds. Why would I invite someone I don't know if I can get a full group of people I do know? So if you want more groups, you tend to migrate to larger guilds.  Large guilds that explain the rules up front and maintain those rules tend to last longer then those that don't. Those that are successful tend to pull in more people.  And the points that StormCinder made are excellent. That is exactly what happens.  Most guild recruitment comes not from the recruitment tool, but from grouping with people are either not happy with thier current guild, or that find themselves unable to advance to where they would like to be in current guild.  Also I don't mind the guild recruitment spam as long as it's not one of those every 2 secs from the same guild. When I look at my chat page and there are ten lines all from the same guild, then that kinds of bugs me.

I have a personal rule that I almost never group outside my guild. I've run into too many people who are level 80 and still don't know how to play thier toons. (IE the furies who won't heal cause they are busy dpsing... the Zerker who still does less then 500 dps and can't understand why they can't hold aggro....etc....)  I'm in a very small guild (under 40) and pretty much know what I'm getting with each guild member that I group with.  I'll take that anyday.  What I'm not willing to do is go help someone outside my guild get thier epic updates with a group that gets me killed 40 times just trying to get to the location of the update.  (lower Chardok comes to mind) As for those who are migrating to guilds just so they can get thier mythical epics.  What most don't realize is that you aren't going to see it.  There is almost no way for a large guild to defeat the VP mobs if they are changing the groups around every time they go in there. These mobs are too hard to kill and require absolute concentration, complete knowledge of what the other members of the raid are doing. Additionally those in the raid have to be raid equiped including master spells.  In a large guild, I can see where this would be a nightmare. There are only a handfull of guilds that can raid this zone for the mythicals and they tend to be small guilds who are very selective of who and of what classes they recruit.

Could changes be made to the recruitment page to make it more friendly to smaller guilds? I'm sure it could be. Might even add a drop down list for those looking for a guild that lets you look for guilds based on size, ie 50 or less, 50-100, 100-500, 500+. Just not sure that with all the other problems that people are complaining about, that this one would be addressed any time soon. 

Jeepned2 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-04-2008, 11:13 AM   #7
StormCinder

Loremaster
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 1,009
Default

Jeepned2 wrote:
Could changes be made to the recruitment page to make it more friendly to smaller guilds? I'm sure it could be. Might even add a drop down list for those looking for a guild that lets you look for guilds based on size, ie 50 or less, 50-100, 100-500, 500+. Just not sure that with all the other problems that people are complaining about, that this one would be addressed any time soon. 

These are cool suggestions.  Basically making the LF Guild tool funciton more along the lines of the LF Group tool, in terms of filters, etc.  While the LF Group tool has it's own shortcomings as a LF Group tool, it's functionality  might be better suited toward a LF Guild tool.

Then the LF Group tool can be....err...re-tooled...to serve it's purpose a little more efficiently/effectively.

SC

__________________
______________________________________________
Hostis Humani Generis

cur·mudg·eon (kr-mjn)

n.

An ill-tempered person full of resentment and stubborn notions.
StormCinder is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-04-2008, 11:15 AM   #8
steelbadger

Loremaster
steelbadger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 816
Default

Jeepned2 wrote:
2. This makes no sense to me.  Yes I keep guild chat up in the background in a separate window when I'm in a group, but don't ever remembering it being a problem for my group unless the guild has told me to be somewhere. My loyalty is to my guild first, then the group I'm in. Sorry, that's just the way it is.
What he means is that guild chat in a large guild kinda goes something like this:You says to the guild:  Who's up for a Chelsith group?Person A says to the guild:  How do I do Quest Z?Person B says to the guild:  Hi guys, How is everyone today?Person C says to the guild:  lol, I just asked this guardian to body pull and he said "whats a body pull?"!!  /dropgroupPerson D says to the guild:  What AA's should I take as my class?Person E says to the guild:  Where should I go to level up at 49?Person F says to the guild:  rofl, I don't reckon your wife will be too happy about that! (to person KZ who spoke before you)And so on.Too much noise, 20 conversations going on at once makes it extraordinarily hard to pull up a guild group.  Or you get something along the lines of:You says to the guild:  Who's up for a Chelsith group?*Silence*Person A says Umm, I'm kinda busy atm.And everyone else stays silent, because they can't be bothered and stay silent in the hope that no-one will notice their silence.  And then they curse the fact that everyone else stayed silent as well, so now they feel bad.
steelbadger is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-04-2008, 12:57 PM   #9
Thunderthyze

Loremaster
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Old South Wales
Posts: 2,050
Default

Jeepned2 wrote:

But what is really happening is that big guilds are going to get bigger.  Just the nature of the beast.

And THAT is precisely the problem. My question is WHY should that be? You end up feeling unimportant and miss out on much of the fun of guilding. Read Algazeed's last post for an example of this.

I have a personal rule that I almost never group outside my guild.

Wow! That is antisocial isn't it?

I'm in a very small guild (under 40) and pretty much know what I'm getting with each guild member that I group with.  I'll take that anyday. 

You know what? So would I. Every day! But my point is that I bet you your guild will hardly ever appear on the guild recruitment screen so how would you go about replacing members if say 10 left at once?

Could changes be made to the recruitment page to make it more friendly to smaller guilds? I'm sure it could be. Might even add a drop down list for those looking for a guild that lets you look for guilds based on size, ie 50 or less, 50-100, 100-500, 500+. Just not sure that with all the other problems that people are complaining about, that this one would be addressed any time soon. 

I think this is a very good idea.

On the basis of "if you don't ask, you don't get".....let's ask SOE to give some consideration of expanding the guild recruitment screen tools? All the information is there on the EQ2 Players website........IF you know where to look (and be honest less than 25% of players use the website at all).....so it could just be a question of linking in to that?
__________________

Thunderthyze is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-04-2008, 01:05 PM   #10
Dasein

Loremaster
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 2,847
Default

The big guilds tend to be big because they aggressively recruit, and seem to be willing to take anyone regardless of class or level. Further, with size comes visibility, and that means more people know who they are and are likely to interact with their members. Nothing SOE does will really change that.
__________________
Troll Lord Casywdian
Dasein is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-04-2008, 01:12 PM   #11
Jeepned2

Loremaster
Jeepned2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 595
Default

[email protected] wrote:
Jeepned2 wrote:

But what is really happening is that big guilds are going to get bigger.  Just the nature of the beast.

And THAT is precisely the problem. My question is WHY should that be? You end up feeling unimportant and miss out on much of the fun of guilding. Read Algazeed's last post for an example of this.

Sorry Holy,  I just don't have a answer for that. Again, nature of the beast. People will migrate towards guilds that they think will better suit thier needs. Don't think that you or SoE can change that.

I have a personal rule that I almost never group outside my guild.

Wow! That is antisocial isn't it?

Antisocial? I don't look at it that way. I concider it more of survival instinct. All my gaming needs are met inside my guild and I have little or no reason to go outside my guild for anything.

I'm in a very small guild (under 40) and pretty much know what I'm getting with each guild member that I group with.  I'll take that anyday. 

You know what? So would I. Every day! But my point is that I bet you your guild will hardly ever appear on the guild recruitment screen so how would you go about replacing members if say 10 left at once?

As a raiding guild, we have not found recruiting to be very difficult. Especially now with the Epics being out.  There are a lot of people who would like a shot at thier Mythicals and recruitment seems to be the smallest of our problems.

Could changes be made to the recruitment page to make it more friendly to smaller guilds? I'm sure it could be. Might even add a drop down list for those looking for a guild that lets you look for guilds based on size, ie 50 or less, 50-100, 100-500, 500+. Just not sure that with all the other problems that people are complaining about, that this one would be addressed any time soon. 

I think this is a very good idea.

Thanks!

On the basis of "if you don't ask, you don't get".....let's ask SOE to give some consideration of expanding the guild recruitment screen tools? All the information is there on the EQ2 Players website........IF you know where to look (and be honest less than 25% of players use the website at all).....so it could just be a question of linking in to that?
Jeepned2 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-04-2008, 01:33 PM   #12
Kaalenarc
Server: Antonia Bayle
Guild: Blackhawks
Rank: Leader

Loremaster
Kaalenarc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 691
Default

[email protected] wrote:

First off a couple or personal opinions:

1. The ethos of grouping (as distinct from soloing and raiding) has been damaged by the release of RoK.

I disagree. While there is more solo content for ONE tier, albeit the highest one, the game itself, and the overall need for grouping and socialization has remained unchanged. Could there be more group content ? Sure - but to say that the ethos or overall community's culture in regards to grouping has been somehow "damaged"? I find that a bit of a stretch. 

2. Big guilds can be counter productive to encouraging grouping as there is just too much background noise in guild chat.

Why does everyone take shots at larger guilds? My guild isnt like that, and I would surmise that the vast majority of our 1300 members get thier questions answered and find their groups. Do some get missed? Of course! But thats as true in a 10 man guild as it is in ours or any other large group. Its easy to make broad generalizations but clearly not all large guilds are the same any more than small ones are. A larger guild offers infinitely MORE opportunities for grouping  - that fact is simple logisitics. If youre in a guild with 4 other people, then the chances of you getting a group are limited to one or all of those four people. However, if you're in a guild with 30 or 40 people online, the chances are significantly greater that someone will be available, Your presumption otherwise is, way off base here, imho.

So, it occurs to me that the structure of the guilds on each server has changed quite a bit since we were given the guild recruitment tool. On most servers there are 2 or 3 big guilds then maybe 10~20 with more than 100 accounts. Thereafter the rosters tail off quite quickly.

This is probably true - but not for the reasons you give. 

In my belief this is because the guild recruitment tool only shows a handful of guilds.....the big ones and the raid guilds. So...if you're looking for a guild and you can't (or don't want to) get into a raid guild your options can be fairly limited.

First, most of the largest guilds were founded and became "large" well BEFORE the guild tool was implemented, so that aspect of your point falls apart a bit there. We all start with 6 members and build from there. People are drawn to the guilds of size and longterm stability simply because they have proven that they can "do it right". And I dont mean playstyle or size, I mean they have shown that they can survive longterm, keep a large number of players satisfied, and provide resources, such as the grouping you claim large guilds dont offer, to their members.

As for the tool, I can tell you I get MAYBE 10% of my applicants there.   The rest come from word of mouth or folks who see our recruiting thread on the board. We dont spam channels either.  Every guild has the same options. The tool is there for those seeking larger guilds. Its simply not logistically possible to list all 3000 guilds on every server. Particularly when there are SO many 1 person "guilds" .(theres nothing wrong with that - but think of all the data searches that will have to be done every time someone hits the U key) being a "raid guild" also has nothing to do with whether or not you show up on the tool. Its "number of members ONLINE" You could be a 40 man guild, but if all your members are on, then youre on the tool,

This is why the big guilds get bigger. New guilds find it very difficult to break into the game and get new members. Ironically it is often the new guilds where all the grouping goes on as they are usually friends who play together regularly. Unfortunately, unless they are prepared to spam the chat channels looking for new members (not a good idea) they may soon become disillusioned and begin to drift away.

Again - what would possibly incline you to believe that folks in large guilds arent grouping? Are you basing it on one or two bad experiences you personally have had? Make an alt on AB for a week or two, I'll invite you in to my team. If you play consistently and participate, Im sure you will at a minimum, rethink your "they are all this way" philosphy. 

I used to lead a large guild that increased in size greatly around the time the recruitment tools were introduced and have to admit that influx was one of the reasons why the guild eventually failed. Our self image became eroded as the original ethos was diluted more and more.

That, is a very vaild, and very real danger. Managing a large guild is a lot of work. And if you dont effectively manage your guild culture, and take steps to preserve it, you can implode. There are, however, strategies to avoid this. We call ours "Acclimation time" , during which officers are enouraged to go out and group with people they have not grouped with, and recruiting is shut off for a few weeks. This gives time for the new people to assimilate to the guild culture and keeps drama fairly low.

I think if the game is to be improved it needs to encourage more grouping and in order to do that, in my opinion, medium sized guilds need to be encouraged and allowed to recruit, either via the existing recruitment window or by some other means.

They have plenty of other means. Use the boards. A well written recruiting post is your very best friend. Youre right in saying avoid channel spam. There are other options: Host a server wide event, open a tavern, send your officers out to newbie zones to mentor new folks. I've seen many many options. Do you REALLY think, that if a new player is confronted with the same information in the tool but given a listing of say 453 guilds online that they can make a choice? What if your guild is # 316 on the list? Thats less visibility than making a post on the forums or level spam. Sure, it would be there - but really, no one would see it.

Lastly, the DEVs have addressed this time and again.  I think this horse is dead, beaten and ground to powder already.
__________________


"Games give you a chance to excel, and if you're playing in good company you don't even mind if you lose because you had the enjoyment of the company during the course of the game." - Gary Gygax

Kaalenarc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-04-2008, 01:40 PM   #13
Kaalenarc
Server: Antonia Bayle
Guild: Blackhawks
Rank: Leader

Loremaster
Kaalenarc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 691
Default

Dasein wrote:
The big guilds tend to be big because they aggressively recruit, and seem to be willing to take anyone regardless of class or level. Further, with size comes visibility, and that means more people know who they are and are likely to interact with their members. Nothing SOE does will really change that.

Some do, not all. Many of the ones Ive encountered take great care in who they bring aboard. As it happens, mine is usually the second or third largest in the entire game, across all servers. (and no - that doesnt make my opinion any more or less vaild). We screen our folks and turn away many more than we accept. But we've been around forever.  I do agree with your comment on size bringing visibility, though that means you have to ensure your members are also giving you positive "press" and not being seen as bad.

/shrug - whenever someone sees a large guild, their first thought seems to be "ah they are only big because they just randomly accept anyone who asks"

I think such comments belittle the hard work many (but of course not all) of the large guilds, and their officers do. Its an all too common misperception and I just cant let it go without mentioning it.

I know quite a few of the larger guild leaders , both on my server and a couple others. the VAST majority dont just take anyone.

__________________


"Games give you a chance to excel, and if you're playing in good company you don't even mind if you lose because you had the enjoyment of the company during the course of the game." - Gary Gygax

Kaalenarc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-04-2008, 01:56 PM   #14
yzyh

Loremaster
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 489
Default

[email protected] wrote:

First off a couple or personal opinions:

2. Big guilds can be counter productive to encouraging grouping as there is just too much background noise in guild chat.

So, it occurs to me that the structure of the guilds on each server has changed quite a bit since we were given the guild recruitment tool. On most servers there are 2 or 3 big guilds then maybe 10~20 with more than 100 accounts. Thereafter the rosters tail off quite quickly.

The good raiding guild (by good I just mean "powerfull&quotSMILEY are rarely big.

Succefull raiding guild recruit poeple who play 6-7days per weeks. Their is 24spot in a raid so they probably have 35-40 main account max.

Having 100players ina  guild mean harder raid advancement since you must gear 100players in order to move to the next Tier content. The No Life players gather together 35-40of them so they just need to gear 35-40toons. It mean a way less time on farming the same tier content b4 moving to the next one.

 Usualy guild with 100-200account are friendly guild wh don,t even raid at all. Often it is guild with very low lvl toon.

like mine. we got almost 200account in the guild but ony 4-5 of our player are over lvl 70.

yzyh is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-04-2008, 02:08 PM   #15
Thunderthyze

Loremaster
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Old South Wales
Posts: 2,050
Default

Dasein wrote:
The big guilds tend to be big because they aggressively recruit, and seem to be willing to take anyone regardless of class or level. Further, with size comes visibility, and that means more people know who they are and are likely to interact with their members. Nothing SOE does will really change that.

LOL......the big guilds get big because they are visible on the guild recruitment window and tend to accept requests to join from anyone. The raid guilds appear on the same tool because they are all at cap presumably so their average level is higher than most. If you call aggressively recruiting spamming the channels then all that does is alienate them to the general populace. Nope sorry....don't see anything here to help smaller guilds recruit members.

You're basically agreeing with me but you're wrong in one respect. SOE could do something to help and that is to expand the guild recruitment options. That's all I'm asking for here. Do you want to see a situation where there are only half a dozen non raid guilds to choose from? The only other option being to sit in a guild with 6 members and no prospects for betterment. That is the direction the servers are moving towards.

__________________

Thunderthyze is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-04-2008, 03:16 PM   #16
Jehannum

Loremaster
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 651
Default

I'd like to be able to say I hate to say this, but let's be honest, I like delivering common sense with a backhand.  SMILEY

This is the direction things are always heading.  Huge (numerically) guilds have large member bases, tend to have a fair bit of churn, and tend quite often to spawn cadet guilds with 10-30 members.  Moderate sized guilds either tighten up into raiding forces, or tend to lose members to those which do.  Smaller guilds who've lost members to raiding guilds break up all the time and reintegrate their members (those who stick with the game) into others, and the cycle repeats itself.  There are some which remain at any given stage for a variety of reasons, but the fact is that this is constantly ongoing and involves the majority of active players, and which specific "doom-of-guilds" you see coming generally depends on which part of the cycle you're directly experiencing at the time.

And as some have mentioned, many raiding guilds tend to hold themselves to a 35-40 member roster, for some very good reasons:

- you can generally count on 1/3 of your force needing to do something else about 2/3 of the time.

- you don't want to cut people who consistently show up

- sometimes you need slightly different compositions and need to be pickier about who goes on a specific raid.

30 people means some raids will be short anywhere from 3-6 people.  45 people means that people are going to get cut, every single raid.  35-40 means that no more than 2-3 people (on average) are being told to suck it up come raid night, and no more than 1-2 slots will ever be open.

Jehannum is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-04-2008, 07:47 PM   #17
Thunderthyze

Loremaster
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Old South Wales
Posts: 2,050
Default

I'm not talking about raid guilds in this thread other than to point out why they routinely appear on the guild recruitment list. Raid guilds are a special case that effectively only recruit via invite. They reflect an entirely active roster which is different from the casual guilds. I would draw everyone's attention to Algazeed's post earlier in this thread and would challenge anyone in a "big" guild (400+ accounts) to suggest this type of chat saturation doesn't go on.

Raiders have it just about perfect as they will rarely have more than 25 people online at any point in time. They all know each other (because they are always grouped together) and they don't spam the chat with cross talk. All I'm saying is that guilds with routinely 40+ members online at the same time can be counter productive to engendering a community spirit due to lack of familiarity. I know this isn't always the case but I have had this experience.

__________________

Thunderthyze is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-05-2008, 10:35 AM   #18
Kaalenarc
Server: Antonia Bayle
Guild: Blackhawks
Rank: Leader

Loremaster
Kaalenarc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 691
Default

[email protected] wrote:

I'm not talking about raid guilds in this thread other than to point out why they routinely appear on the guild recruitment list. Raid guilds are a special case that effectively only recruit via invite. They reflect an entirely active roster which is different from the casual guilds. I would draw everyone's attention to Algazeed's post earlier in this thread and would challenge anyone in a "big" guild (400+ accounts) to suggest this type of chat saturation doesn't go on.

Raiders have it just about perfect as they will rarely have more than 25 people online at any point in time. They all know each other (because they are always grouped together) and they don't spam the chat with cross talk. All I'm saying is that guilds with routinely 40+ members online at the same time can be counter productive to engendering a community spirit due to lack of familiarity. I know this isn't always the case but I have had this experience.

 And A guild that routinely has 3 members online fosters more of a community spirit? I dont think so. I think that the "lack of familiarity" thing can happen in virtually any size guild. Essentially size isnt really relevant to the discussion. Yes, people can be "lost in the crowd" . But they can just as easily get lost if theres no one online to help them in the first place.

 While you may have had that experience, not everyone, not even most people, have the same experience. A guild is what you make of it. I've seen 200 member guilds succeed and 15 man guilds fail, and vice versa.

A guilds culture is what determines its success. NOT its size.  There is no magic formula - only a series of "best practices" maybe that can contribute.

As for the guild tool - try an experiment before you complain about the "larger guilds" being the only ones on the tool. Check say the bottom three guilds on your tool - then do a /who all guildname. I think you will be surprised at just how few members have to be online to make the list.

 The issue for me is, too many players look at a guild as a service rather than as a cooperative endeavor. People join guilds with the "what is it gonna get me" outlook tend to have an extremely low tolerance for what they will and will not accept. So yeah, sometimes they put in too little effort in helping themselves. How many times have the folks reading this thread seen someone leave a guild because everyone online was not willing to drop what they were doing to assist? Right - we all have. But that has nothing to so with guild size, it just doesnt. It happens in large medium small and raid guilds.

 Again - its the culture - theres that word again - of the guild. Set the expectation correctly and people will be more willing to work cooperatively. And therefore, there will be more grouping opportunities.

__________________


"Games give you a chance to excel, and if you're playing in good company you don't even mind if you lose because you had the enjoyment of the company during the course of the game." - Gary Gygax

Kaalenarc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-05-2008, 04:39 PM   #19
Thunderthyze

Loremaster
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Old South Wales
Posts: 2,050
Default

[email protected] Bayle wrote:
[email protected] wrote:

All I'm saying is that guilds with routinely 40+ members online at the same time can be counter productive to engendering a community spirit due to lack of familiarity. I know this isn't always the case but I have had this experience.

 And A guild that routinely has 3 members online fosters more of a community spirit? I dont think so. I think that the "lack of familiarity" thing can happen in virtually any size guild. Essentially size isnt really relevant to the discussion. Yes, people can be "lost in the crowd" . But they can just as easily get lost if theres no one online to help them in the first place.

I think there is a bit of a difference between 40+ and 3? Let's maybe think of an ideal compromise of about 20?
__________________

Thunderthyze is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-07-2008, 07:04 PM   #20
Kaalenarc
Server: Antonia Bayle
Guild: Blackhawks
Rank: Leader

Loremaster
Kaalenarc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 691
Default

[email protected] wrote:
[email protected] Bayle wrote:
[email protected] wrote:

All I'm saying is that guilds with routinely 40+ members online at the same time can be counter productive to engendering a community spirit due to lack of familiarity. I know this isn't always the case but I have had this experience.

 And A guild that routinely has 3 members online fosters more of a community spirit? I dont think so. I think that the "lack of familiarity" thing can happen in virtually any size guild. Essentially size isnt really relevant to the discussion. Yes, people can be "lost in the crowd" . But they can just as easily get lost if theres no one online to help them in the first place.

I think there is a bit of a difference between 40+ and 3? Let's maybe think of an ideal compromise of about 20?

OK - but then the analogy no longer universally fits. Is there a lack of familarity because theres too much guild chat as you claim? Is there level disparity among the members? Are there 3 full groups leaving 2 members in the cold? Are there not enough people online? I feel that the answer to the issue of maintaining a community spirit and fostering a sense of belonging does NOT lie in the numbers. You can have a 6, 20, 40 or 1300 member guild. It doesnt matter. If the leaadership takes the appropriate measures, then that is where the heart of the matter is.  And that is whats goign to get your community spirit and sense of belonging and teamwork to where you want it to be.

 Is your above statement true? Yes. It **can** be counterproductive to engendering community spirit.  The absolute reverse **can** also be true, having more people online makes some folks feel like they are a part of something larger, a community, a family. So while your point is well taken, under the guise of, "this is something the larger guilds might want to be concerned with", as a universal truth or even general guideline, it somewhat falls apart.

To steer things back towards the original point - i.e. the guild recruitment tool: Since this thread began i've seen guilds with as few as 7 or 8 members online make the listing on the tool at various points in time. This seems to happen fairly consistently on AB. Now, maybe those guilds have 100 members or something, but Id surmise that a guild of say, 10, that played fairly consistently at the same times could frequently make the list for the tool.

 At any rate, this has certainly been a great discussion and any debate like this is certainly healthy.

__________________


"Games give you a chance to excel, and if you're playing in good company you don't even mind if you lose because you had the enjoyment of the company during the course of the game." - Gary Gygax

Kaalenarc is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools

Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 02:14 AM.

vBulletin skin by: CompleteGFX.com
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.5
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
All threads and posts originally from the EQ2 and Station forums operated by Sony Online Entertainment. Their use is by express written permission.