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Old 05-15-2007, 04:19 PM   #1
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Honestly, I'm curious.  You don't have to look very far to find a thread in which one group gripes that "X-class" is the easy button, and how did they ever avoid the nerf bat, immediately followed by 2 more threads trashing the classes of everybody who disagrees.  I only play on the Q side (yeah, I know, but what can ya do, right?), but pre-PvP had toons on both sides.  I'd like to see some serious input from people who've actually played the class and can say "If I run into any XXXXX, even conning green, they go through me like cheap tequila".  There's an open toon slot coming up soon, and I'm curious to try something different.  Please, try to keep it friendly.  And punctuated. SMILEY
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Old 05-15-2007, 04:31 PM   #2
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[email protected] wrote:
Honestly, I'm curious.  You don't have to look very far to find a thread in which one group gripes that "X-class" is the easy button, and how did they ever avoid the nerf bat, immediately followed by 2 more threads trashing the classes of everybody who disagrees.  I only play on the Q side (yeah, I know, but what can ya do, right?), but pre-PvP had toons on both sides.  I'd like to see some serious input from people who've actually played the class and can say "If I run into any XXXXX, even conning green, they go through me like cheap tequila".  There's an open toon slot coming up soon, and I'm curious to try something different.  Please, try to keep it friendly.  And punctuated. SMILEY
I think the standard answer is guardian if your looking for a challenge.  It will be near impossible for you to get a kill vs anyone solo, and most of the classes will tear through you like butter.  They really, really need to do something about the low protection that plate armor gives you in this game; it's just pathetic.  However, if you want a challenging class to play that, if mastered, will yield really good results, I think mystic, templar or illusionist are good choices as well.
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Old 05-15-2007, 04:39 PM   #3
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The one you play, because you suck.

Every class has their place, every class is more or less powerful depending on how you play them.

Hardest?  It's not the class that makes the game hard, it's the style of play.

If you solo, virtually all non-scouts will be hard.  Guardian, as said above, will be virtually impossible to get kills solo.

If you group?  There is no "hardest".

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Old 05-15-2007, 04:43 PM   #4
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... also, bards past T2 are a real challenge I hear.
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Old 05-15-2007, 04:46 PM   #5
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silentpsycho wrote:
... also, bards past T2 are a real challenge I hear.
Don't believe what you hear..
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Old 05-15-2007, 04:46 PM   #6
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Perhaps I should have clarified with "most challenging".  Guardian, you say?  Never played a tank, even in EQ1.  Could be interesting.  Also, I mostly solo.  Occasionally duo.  Rarely group.
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Old 05-15-2007, 04:53 PM   #7
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[email protected] wrote:
Perhaps I should have clarified with "most challenging".  Guardian, you say?  Never played a tank, even in EQ1.  Could be interesting.  Also, I mostly solo.  Occasionally duo.  Rarely group.

If you mostly solo, i can't imagine anything that's going to be as difficult as a guardian.

If you said you mostly grouped with 5 other guys, i'd say i can't imagine a more Overpowered class than a guardian.

You see what i mean about the style of play dictating the difficulty of a class?

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Old 05-15-2007, 04:54 PM   #8
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[email protected] wrote:
Perhaps I should have clarified with "most challenging".  Guardian, you say?  Never played a tank, even in EQ1.  Could be interesting.  Also, I mostly solo.  Occasionally duo.  Rarely group.
Then, as a tank of just about any flavor, expect your pvp stats to reflect how much you solo.  If 100% solo, you will have 0 kills for a long time (if not forever).  I overcame this by mentally counting "non losses" and runners as little victories.  On the other hand, when you get to 70, a guild might need you to MT a raid or something.
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Old 05-15-2007, 04:56 PM   #9
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silentpsycho wrote:
However, if you want a challenging class to play that, if mastered, will yield really good results, I think mystic, templar or illusionist are good choices as well.
Mystics are lots of fun... I have a 53 mystic in PvE and have never lost a duel... I used to think I was unable to solo, but I finally tried it around level 50 and found out it wasn't as bad as I thought it was. The hardest part about it is the long cast times for the wards. If your going against someone who can interrupt you a lot you won't have much of a chance... But if you can preward a group and single ward then you are going to be tough to beat. I doubt you would be able to take on 2 or more very easily if at all, but soloing you could be a force to be reckoned with... (AP's can give you some nice dps increases) Just my thoughts....
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Old 05-15-2007, 05:10 PM   #10
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Bozidar wrote:

The one you play, because you suck.

Every class has their place, every class is more or less powerful depending on how you play them.

Hardest?  It's not the class that makes the game hard, it's the style of play.

If you solo, virtually all non-scouts will be hard.  Guardian, as said above, will be virtually impossible to get kills solo.

If you group?  There is no "hardest".

QFE
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Old 05-15-2007, 05:24 PM   #11
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Ameniel wrote:
Bozidar wrote:

The one you play, because you suck.

Every class has their place, every class is more or less powerful depending on how you play them.

Hardest?  It's not the class that makes the game hard, it's the style of play.

If you solo, virtually all non-scouts will be hard.  Guardian, as said above, will be virtually impossible to get kills solo.

If you group?  There is no "hardest".

QFE
What does "QFE" mean?
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Old 05-15-2007, 05:29 PM   #12
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azekah wrote:
silentpsycho wrote:
However, if you want a challenging class to play that, if mastered, will yield really good results, I think mystic, templar or illusionist are good choices as well.
Mystics are lots of fun... I have a 53 mystic in PvE and have never lost a duel... I used to think I was unable to solo, but I finally tried it around level 50 and found out it wasn't as bad as I thought it was. The hardest part about it is the long cast times for the wards. If your going against someone who can interrupt you a lot you won't have much of a chance... But if you can preward a group and single ward then you are going to be tough to beat. I doubt you would be able to take on 2 or more very easily if at all, but soloing you could be a force to be reckoned with... (AP's can give you some nice dps increases) Just my thoughts....

I have a 57 defiler on Nagafen, and they can be very formidable.  Last night, I stomped a 57 fury 1v1 and a group of 3 blue con scouts in EL.  I only actually killed one of the scouts, the other two ran away when they were out of mana.  The big difference is judicious use of fear, going melee AA route, and as stated above, pre-warding (and never letting them expire).  If my health manages to drop below 50%, i'm most likely gonna lose.  I have to say, between my tank and my defiler, I have much more fun solo pvp'ing on the defiler.  And, it's definitely not "easy mode".

Locus, 57 defiler of Nagafen Fyste 63 bruiser of Nagafen Anatheme 55 guardian of Nagafen (retired) ...and too many other alts to list

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Old 05-15-2007, 08:34 PM   #13
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QFE=Quotated For Effect?..

 it's used to reinforce a point, to re-state something of importance or relevance..

Back to topic.. if you want hard, then play a Guardian or COERCER... they lack dps, no innate run buffs, are made out of paper, have immunity to most of their spells, rarely have a useful pet, have no evac or tracking... = mega [Removed for Content].. especially considering most fights that last over a minute get interupted by more people.

I had an illusionist from 1-50 and then switched to coercer at 50-70. T7 he has all lenegdary/fabled gear with M1/adp3 spells and he litterally gets eaten alive ... 1-50 my illusionist was very good actually. Being able to run and cast mez is their best spell.. their pet is also stable dps and when the dots mount up is quite nice.

lolz

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Old 05-16-2007, 02:28 AM   #14
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Guardian can be done solo, but it's painful.  Have a full set of PVP gear myself, with about 4000 kills, 85% solo I would estimate.  Have killed every class in the game onevone, but some healer classes are basically impossible if played by a competent player (see fury, warden).  Once you get geared and mastered out, you'll find that you can usually beat assasins, rangers, dirges and troubs.  Swashies and Brigs are much tougher, but they're tough for almost any class. Anyway, it can be done, and I know a few others on Naggy who do.  The obvious weakness is fight avoidance.  No track, no invis, no evac, etc.  Nothing like running right into a X2.  Easier to avoid the x4's (you can feel the lag coming).  Fighting in KoS is the safest place with the clouds and knowing certain routes around the islands, but you're still going to die alot. Also, stopping someone from running is tough.  Learning to use your root effectively (and extending it's duration with AA's) and having a good bow mitigate this. Anyway, before server merge, soloing was very doable for a guard, it's pretty tough now with all the raids and groups out, but that will probably settle down.  And as was said, you can obviously be a great asset to a group. So, yeah, fight avoidance we're bottom of the barrel (so keeping infamy is hard), but if you ever find a one on one fight you can do well. I also think it would be tough to start soloing now as a guard or any moderately powered class.  With EOF out for 7 months now, the soloists you will face are likely going to tear you up.  Being one of the more obviously strong classes is probably advisable coming in now, unless you like a long hard slog.
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Old 05-16-2007, 07:02 AM   #15
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Strangely enough I play both a Dirge and a Guardian. PvP Stats are below

Killque - 44 Dirge

Shaneyney -14 Eurdite Guardian (yep, Eurdite)

Edit: and yes, I mostly solo

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Old 05-16-2007, 09:09 AM   #16
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killque ; yeah, you can probably solo a guardian and get kills in 2 tiers.. T2, and T7.

In T2 folks will underestimate you and stick around cuz they just think they're going to win...

In T7 you get some better dps and i'm sure some other hot stuff, and can probably get a kill off once in a while SMILEY

There has to be a ton of utility items that you have to use though, to keep enemies with you.. your buff that slows you and targets in aoe when it procs.. the spider charm that snares.. tinkered troll snot flinger..

You can do it... but it's more challenging.. and hats off to ya SMILEY

p.s. a troub up till 30 isn't a hard class to play, and a dirge from mid 30's until high 50's can be a very powerful toon as well.  I have NO idea why so many people think bards suck..

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Old 05-16-2007, 09:23 AM   #17
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Bozidar wrote:

killque ; yeah, you can probably solo a guardian and get kills in 2 tiers.. T2, and T7.

In T2 folks will underestimate you and stick around cuz they just think they're going to win...

In T7 you get some better dps and i'm sure some other hot stuff, and can probably get a kill off once in a while SMILEY

There has to be a ton of utility items that you have to use though, to keep enemies with you.. your buff that slows you and targets in aoe when it procs.. the spider charm that snares.. tinkered troll snot flinger..

You can do it... but it's more challenging.. and hats off to ya SMILEY

p.s. a troub up till 30 isn't a hard class to play, and a dirge from mid 30's until high 50's can be a very powerful toon as well.  I have NO idea why so many people think bards suck..

Because mos tpeople, me included, cant play one. I melt face on pretty nmuch all my toons, but I deleted my bard since I couldnt do [Removed for Content] on it. SMILEY
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Old 05-16-2007, 09:25 AM   #18
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on a PVP server, I believe the toughest to solo is a guardian. I have played a Templar to level 40, and a mystic to level 40, and I must say, from level 20 to level 40, in one on one PVP, both classes are tough, but winnable.  with either healing class, if you get into a 2 vs 1 situation, where you are the healer facing two PVP'ers, you are going to die if you dont' have the initiative & run.  Also, once you are labeled as the healer in a PVP group, you are going to die. Alot.  Period.  I am working on a coercer currently, that I'm going to betray and play as an illusionist, so I'll update here when I know more about that class.
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Old 05-16-2007, 10:34 AM   #19
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rvbarton wrote:
on a PVP server, I believe the toughest to solo is a guardian. I have played a Templar to level 40, and a mystic to level 40, and I must say, from level 20 to level 40, in one on one PVP, both classes are tough, but winnable.  with either healing class, if you get into a 2 vs 1 situation, where you are the healer facing two PVP'ers, you are going to die if you dont' have the initiative & run.  Also, once you are labeled as the healer in a PVP group, you are going to die. Alot.  Period.  I am working on a coercer currently, that I'm going to betray and play as an illusionist, so I'll update here when I know more about that class.

I personally just think you lack. Sorry but you must...

If you go as a battle priest you can win easily with decent gear and some skill. As a battle priest myself I kill dps (1-3 in a single group) all the time.

Coerecers are very hard to play because they take so long to kill someone and generally you will get adds (PC). Guardians lack good DPS, any evac and a means of stopping someone run. Making them also hard to solo with.

Two very much "group" orientated classes SMILEY

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Old 05-16-2007, 10:42 AM   #20
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QFE = Quoted For Emphasis
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Old 05-16-2007, 11:05 AM   #21
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Just because a class doesnt "get" something doesnt mean they cant "have" it.

There are Evac items, Snare items, cure potions the lot! These are fairly easily obtainable and useable at even low lvls.

At lvl 12 any class can, snare, evac, cure stuff, see stealth, see invis and more. There should never be an excuse for someone not getting any of the previously listed items.

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Old 05-17-2007, 01:54 PM   #22
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Coercers hands down.  They have the cloth armor of course, that puts them into a squishy league, but the Coercer goes one step further and doesn't have any wards, or bodyguard pet AAs.  So they are made of paper.

Second, they can mez you if it lands, stun you, put reactives on you, but cant kill you unless you attack them and even then it is tough.  We get a nasty pet that can be cured by a level 9 spell and will attack us, sometimes one shotting us.  Yes, we are hardcore.

Wizzies can one shot us, pet classes can send pets in and come back later for tokens.  Rangers kill me before I can hit one button to target them (yes I have maxed stamina and legendary gear and mastered out).  Swashies most of the time can't even get themselves to attack me (out of pity) unless I am red to them and perhaps a challenge.

If I have two full time healers healing me and everyone hits me or casts on me, watch out, the Coercer is dangerous.

Hehe, well to the OP, if you want a challenge, a Coercer is it.  Guardians can outlast, Coercers can't.  You always have to be on your A+ game as a Coercer.  If you see one with a high title, please /kneel out of respect or simply assume that they always grouped.

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Old 05-17-2007, 02:33 PM   #23
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Tiabella wrote:

Coercers hands down.  They have the cloth armor of course, that puts them into a squishy league, but the Coercer goes one step further and doesn't have any wards, or bodyguard pet AAs.  So they are made of paper.

Second, they can mez you if it lands, stun you, put reactives on you, but cant kill you unless you attack them and even then it is tough.  We get a nasty pet that can be cured by a level 9 spell and will attack us, sometimes one shotting us.  Yes, we are hardcore.

Wizzies can one shot us, pet classes can send pets in and come back later for tokens.  Rangers kill me before I can hit one button to target them (yes I have maxed stamina and legendary gear and mastered out).  Swashies most of the time can't even get themselves to attack me (out of pity) unless I am red to them and perhaps a challenge.

If I have two full time healers healing me and everyone hits me or casts on me, watch out, the Coercer is dangerous.

Hehe, well to the OP, if you want a challenge, a Coercer is it.  Guardians can outlast, Coercers can't.  You always have to be on your A+ game as a Coercer.  If you see one with a high title, please /kneel out of respect or simply assume that they always grouped.

Amen Brother!

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Old 05-17-2007, 04:52 PM   #24
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If you're looking for a challenging class to play, Coercer is a good choice, but I think Tiabella makes it look a bit worse than it is. In group pvp, Coercers are lots of fun because you can really wreak some havoc with enemy healers and casters. Solo PvP as a Coercer comes in two flavours: with pet, or without pet. 90% of the game zones will not have any decent pets at level 70 so the vast majority of your solo PvP will be without a pet. Without a pet, your main strategy in PvP is to stay alive long enough for your reactives to kill your opponent. What this means is that you have a really hard time against spike damage classes like rangers, assassins, wizards or warlocks, simply because they can kill you in two or three hits, giving your reactives no time to really wear them down. If you're fighting a sustained dps class like a conjurer or a swashbuckler, if you play your cards right you can usually take them down. Again, the strategy here is to stay alive long enough for your reactives to finish them off, but you have a better chance at succeeding against these guys because, unlike assassins or wizards, their damage comes from a lot of smaller hits over a period of time, rather than a huge chunk every two minutes. With a pet, your strategy changes to keeping your opponent incapacitated as much as possible so your pet can kill them. You still want to use marred psyche/breakdown and stack your reactives, but your main focus should be on stunning, stifling, dazing and generally keeping your pet alive at all costs so it can kill the guy for you. With a decent pet and proper spell upgrades and the like you can roll pretty much anyone 1v1. This of course assumes you have a master 1 charm spell. If you don't, you might as well go home because an adept 3 or lower pet is more of a liability than an asset. In any case, PvP as a Coercer should be challenging enough for anyone. Of course you should always be carrying see stealth totems, ward potions, and so on like everyone else. You will still die a lot, regardless of if it's solo, group or raid pvp. You're a caster, and you can wreak a lot of havoc in a group if they let you live, so chances are you're the first one to go down.
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Old 05-17-2007, 05:19 PM   #25
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Pocketlint is right, I was being harsh.  Actually on purpose, more sarcasm than anything else.  But the "meat and potatoes" of what I am saying still stands.  On the Freeport side, the Coercer is the hardest to play.  It could easily be the hardest class to play on both sides.

But if played well, which I didn't go into, you can really hurt feelings in a way that they scratch their head and go [Removed for Content] just happened?  Mental resists aren't usually a priority, but we still get resisted a lot.  Nonetheless, if we get reactives to stick and we live long enough to see them go through their full cycle, more like than not they are dead.

To make sure I am being clear though, you still have to usually hit a sequence of attacks depending on your foe flawlessly.  Most enemies don't know how to deal with you, but once their healers start dropping like flys and they don't know why, you are the first to go.  Which brings me to my last post:

We are Coercers, we coerce stuff.  Stuff that breaks, a lot.  In a group, I don't recommend using a pet in PvP.  One break and you could wipe your whole group.  In solo, with a caster pet, I am not scared of anyone, especially if I see them.  Couple these facts with the fact that you have the worst mitigation in the game, no real dps debuffs, no wards, no pet to protect you and no direct DPS to strike them down before they strike you and well, you have a tough class to play.

Broke?  No.  Tough to play well?  Yes.

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Old 05-17-2007, 07:29 PM   #26
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Oh I absolutely agree with the essence of your post. I've had moments with my Coercer where all my mezzes, stuns and stifles kept getting resisted and I wound up getting utterly destroyed by a green Templar. The nerfs to the resistabilities of mezzes and other such control effects really hurt the Coercer in PvP because quite often it will take two or three tries to get a master 1 mez to stick on someone with average mental resists, and that's three or four seconds that we flat out don't have to lose in PvP. I'm two or three AA's away from Tashiana and we'll see how it goes with that.
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Old 05-17-2007, 08:37 PM   #27
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Bozidar wrote:

A troub up till 30 isn't a hard class to play, and a dirge from mid 30's until high 50's can be a very powerful toon as well.  I have NO idea why so many people think bards suck..

Because once you get to 45+ bards start to slow down. By the time you hit 70 it takes you forever to kill anyone. Unless you roll in a group at 70, you will die ALOT, just because your DPS completely sucks.

Hardest class to get kills with at 70: Troubador/Dirge/Coercer.

If the coercers had track and evac, they'd be gods.

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Old 05-17-2007, 08:44 PM   #28
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Dirge is hands down the hardest scout to play at end game. Period.  Troubador is a close second, but at least they get some control effects.   However, they still have track and evac, so ... hardest to play at end game?  who knows.

Everyone wants to solo though... not sure why, this game was built on the premise of grouping.. so theres a lot of classes like the coercer/illusionist that absolutely own face in a group setting.

group wise, there aren't any "hard" classes to play... dirge / troub in group play are the "easiest" to play.. just buff and give some moral support.  I guess you could press a few combat arts.. it's not required though....   in SOLO play, they are hard as hell to kill with... easy to survive (track and evac)...

hard to tell really.. depends on what you wanna do.... 

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Old 05-17-2007, 09:04 PM   #29
Fonrian

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Brigands, Swashies, and Rangers are the hardest to play.  Take me for example....do you know how hard it is to spam the two macros I have all of my CA's set on?
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Old 05-17-2007, 10:34 PM   #30
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If your looking at T7 I would have to say the wizzard is the hardest to play on either side, very hard with groups impossable solo. But in the end play a class you enjoy because in the end your time in game is what you make of it.
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