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Old 12-17-2004, 07:16 PM   #1
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Message Edited by xAlaric on 09-07-2005 03:34 PM

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Old 12-18-2004, 12:02 AM   #2
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If I'm not mistaken the food/drink regeneration rates are % based on your max HP/P and depend on your level Vs. food/drink level (which makes sense of course to prevent twinking low level alts with insane food for no downtime). So hard numbers would be impossible to display due to obvious reasons, but the percentage of regeneration per tick could be shown and changing based on food's con towards you SMILEY It's a fact that Glacial Water regenerates my power at least twice as slow now at lv40 than it did pre-30. I guess I've 'outleveled' the drink ;/.
 
Add: I don't know how exactly this 'Satiation' property is displayed but any kind of number would be enough for me to differentiate one food's effectiveness over another SMILEY But I guess some people need hard numbers to be persuaded into purchase SMILEY

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Old 12-18-2004, 12:21 AM   #3
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I felt the new info was enuf.. Plenty of info on what foods are better than others.. I dont feel we need numbers, yeah they are nice but us casters dont get numbers for Dmg are spells do or how much a heal does.. And thats all do to what Putka stated..  Too many factors the effect would be changing too much..
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Old 12-18-2004, 01:32 AM   #4
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Putka wrote:
If I'm not mistaken the food/drink regeneration rates are % based on your max HP/P and depend on your level Vs. food/drink level (which makes sense of course to prevent twinking low level alts with insane food for no downtime). So hard numbers would be impossible to display due to obvious reasons, but the percentage of regeneration per tick could be shown and changing based on food's con towards you SMILEY It's a fact that Glacial Water regenerates my power at least twice as slow now at lv40 than it did pre-30. I guess I've 'outleveled' the drink ;/.
 
Add: I don't know how exactly this 'Satiation' property is displayed but any kind of number would be enough for me to differentiate one food's effectiveness over another SMILEY But I guess some people need hard numbers to be persuaded into purchase SMILEY

Message Edited by Putka on 12-17-2004 11:06 AM



As it turns out, it's not percentage-based.  Here's how it works, and why numbers are important:
 
Just by standing around, you get about 4% of your Power back every 6 seconds.  You can find out the exact amount by sprinting down to zero Power, placing your mouse over yourself in the targeting box, and watching the Power rise every 6 seconds.  Log a few to make sure you're getting solid numbers and you'll see how much you get just by being alive.
 
Then drink something, sprint to zero, and do it again.  The difference is how much Power you get from that drink at your current adventuring level.  Only the base increase by simply being alive is percentage-based.  Drinks are flat adds.
 
If you use a drink that is too high for you, you will get the maximum flat add allowed for your level.  This generally results in capping your regeneration at about 10% per 6 seconds, so it makes the drinks look like they are percentage-based, but they're really flat bonuses.
 
This is why numbers are important:  when you see a lot of drinks on the broker, how can you tell which one is the right drink to buy?  They all have crazy names and are otherwise all over the place in price.  The new system does let you get a "Con" color for them, so you could just buy the cheapest Red Con drink on the market.  If that's what the devs intend, that's fine.   It will give the buyer the best regeneration he can get, by the method of simply maxing him out with overkill.  It won't give him the best value, because he could have used a lesser drink and still gained his maximum, perhaps for a lot less cash, but if that's the intention of the designers on this, then so be it.
 
In regards to spells, you don't need to know numbers most of the time for upgrade purposes.  You aren't buying temporary upgrades to them, which is what food and drinks do.  And as you level, you need to consider new food/drink.  With your spells, you upgrade them to App3 or Adept 1 or whatever, and you stay with that until you upgrade again.  And you know with certainty that Adept3 is better than Adept1 no matter what level you are.  Eventually you get an upgrade to that spell just by leveling.  At that point you decide whether it's better to use the old one, or upgrade the new one.  At that moment, numbers would be valuable to you, as there are a number of spells that are markedly inferior when you first get the higher level version.
 
Personally I'd like to see numbers given on spells and food/drink.  I don't see any immersion factor being lost, as numbers are already placed on armor and weapons.
 
In any event, if they don't want to give out numbers, that's cool - Provisioners will just have to print them ourselves and do our best to do the job the devs said they were doing in this update.  The upgrade sounds neat but in fact does almost nothing to inform the buyer regarding what drinks actually do.  Not the end of the world, but a shame that they didn't just go ahead and inform the buyer what he was getting.
 
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Old 12-18-2004, 01:57 AM   #5
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Have to aggre here this is not a real improvemnt loged on this morning to take look
what I would like to see is something along the lines of eq1, style displayes
 
where the level of the max benifit is displayed
kind like
 
Wild Apple Juice
recomended level 49
regen: +25/+65
duration: 180min
or something like that,
and maybe add a line of current effect if under the recomended level
 
with this info on the discription players could clearly see the cause and effect,
translating to monatary value.
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Old 12-18-2004, 05:37 PM   #6
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All these suggestions make so much sense.. hard figures, recommended level, actual effect for the player at his level, just like for any other piece of equipment, so obvious that one could wonder how they figured to do it differently... but no, it would be too good, too logical, too user friendly...
 
So let's live with this half hearted attempt, and let's rely on hard core dedicated provisioners to work the stats, and publish them on the net. Then we'll have proper information and will relay it to our guilds / trader communities.
 
Maybe this is the intended effect: create a time sink by forcing player managed information
 
 
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Old 12-18-2004, 08:21 PM   #7
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I must say it is nice to get the general idea of stength and the duration without gulping down your first batch SMILEY just made some nice soup with 3 1/2 hour duration and was able to get 75c from the wholesaler for it, where as before i would have wasted it out of curiosity =P
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Old 12-18-2004, 08:25 PM   #8
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It is unlikely they will provide flat numbers for this. They like a bit of mystery and unknown and like to let the players figure things out for themselves a bit.There is enough information provided now for anyone who desires to do so. I doubt you will see it changed to numbers, and I don't think it should be.
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Old 12-19-2004, 08:56 AM   #9
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Yah and while we are at lets keep the weapon and armor stats and the damage you do in combat a mystery too. 
 
 
NOT!
 
I do not want to read that an item is shiny polished etc or see I wacked a MOB for a stunningly hard hit or whatever.
 
Just give the [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] numbers so folks KNOW what they are buying.  They do on other items, why punish Provisioners by making their wares a mystery as you so aptly put it.
 
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Old 12-19-2004, 12:55 PM   #10
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xAlaric wrote:
Artisan feedback / from level 50 Prov
Did the devs buff you? Wasn't aware o any level 50's on Test. "/who all" usually caps at 25 max.
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Old 12-20-2004, 06:24 PM   #11
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Well I must add my disappointment to hearing that the Provisioners are being denied hard numbers on food/drink items.  I am an Armorer by trade, and I would be terribly frustrated if all my crafted pieces had no stats printed on them.  Not to mention, I doubt I'd ever be able to sell a single piece.
 
I hope a Dev reads this thread and seriously re-thinks their half-hearted attempt to make provisions more user-friendly... all items in the game need to have hard numbers attached to their affects for them to be truly worthwhile.  Leaving out the products of one Artisan class from this service is wrong and abusive to that class.
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Old 12-20-2004, 07:59 PM   #12
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Kwoung wrote:


xAlaric wrote:
Artisan feedback / from level 50 Prov
Did the devs buff you? Wasn't aware o any level 50's on Test. "/who all" usually caps at 25 max.



Thats LVL 50 Artisan..  /who all wont give you that info.. youd have to look thru all the societies...
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Old 12-20-2004, 09:15 PM   #13
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I think the original poster has an excellent point.I was certainly under the impression that we would finally see hard numbers on food and drink. After reading his explanation of the way food works, I realize that the 'con' system will be sufficient for me.But see, that's the whole point!Many players do not understand exactly how food and drink work. So why should they buy it? Until the item has a clear description of its benefits, the market will be limited I think.
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Old 12-20-2004, 10:20 PM   #14
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/agree
 
Numbers need to be on the food / drink . . . there really isn't a legit reason not to do this . . . every item in the game has it's statistical benefits clearly stated.
 
Someone above said that each food / drink should show you it's "maximum" regen, as well as the regen the buyer would receive.  I think that's a great idea.  That would allow players to purchase only what they really NEED and not just grab an orange or red con product to ensure that they get the maximum benefit for their hard earned dollar.
 
Hey, look, I don't want to sell some L12 Shaman a Tier 3 drink.  I want to sell him something appropriate to his level.  When I'm in trader mode, I'm not there to help him decide and he simply must guess.
 
Numbers help both buyer and seller, and should be implemented so that EVERYONE gets what they NEED, no more, no less.

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Old 12-21-2004, 01:48 AM   #15
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Faegin wrote:
Well I must add my disappointment to hearing that the Provisioners are being denied hard numbers on food/drink items.  I am an Armorer by trade, and I would be terribly frustrated if all my crafted pieces had no stats printed on them.  Not to mention, I doubt I'd ever be able to sell a single piece.
 
I hope a Dev reads this thread and seriously re-thinks their half-hearted attempt to make provisions more user-friendly... all items in the game need to have hard numbers attached to their affects for them to be truly worthwhile.  Leaving out the products of one Artisan class from this service is wrong and abusive to that class.



You do realize that "AC" is a composite number that is essentially just a display value? Listing AC as "superlative" or "normal" or "high" on a piece would be, frankly, just as good. Comparing ACs and seeing that X has 10% more AC than Y tells you absolutely nothing other than that X is better than Y. If item A has 100 AC and item B has 100 AC, they don't necessary have exactly the same effect on mitigation. A high-con, low quality piece and a low-con, high quality piece with the same AC will not function equivalently vs. mobs your level - it's not a hard measure. And no, not all items in the game need hard numbers attached to their effects. You don't need to know exactly how much a book is going to be worth before you complete a book quest. You don't need to know exactly how much an item will sell for when you examine it. And you don't need to know exactly how much regeneration food or drink gives you - this is a role-playing game, not a spreadsheet.
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Old 12-21-2004, 05:44 AM   #16
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Not to hijack the thread, but that isn't correct."The AC value indicates how much damage reduction that piece of armor provides for you. Two different items with the same AC provide the same protection, regardless of whether the armor is light or heavy armor, or whether it was obtained from a creature, quest or crafter."Prima Official Game Guide, pg 47
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Old 12-21-2004, 05:44 PM   #17
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I would be content just knowing what Tier the food was.I have an idea what tier it is because I've been harvesting for 40 levels, but it would be nice to have an idea what tier it is. A con color like armor or weapons have would be fine too.
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Old 12-22-2004, 12:22 AM   #18
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There is an entire artisan subclass based on producing food and drink, so YES, we DO need hard numbers. As so many have stated, we have hard numbers for weapons and armor. I can look at my weapon and see what the base damage is, what damage I can do with it RIGHT NOW, and what damage I will be able to do with it when I reach its level (and what that level is). So I know that my sword is level 19, and better than any other level 19 sword I've seen, and that once I reach level 20 I had better have a replacement or at least be actively searching for a replacement.
 
My biggest beef with the Satiation level is that it will use a scale of words that really have no meaning within the context of the game: is "superb" better than "fantastic" or "ultraspecial" and WHY should I be forced to remember this? Just give me numbers. Probably easier to implement than Satiation level, too (since the game already KNOWS what the numbers will be for you, after all, it would have to calculate those same numbers if you actually ate or drank the item....).
 
Hidden info is pretty much an all-or-nothing proposition: once you show the numbers for one kind of equipment/items, you are pretty much committed to doing the same for ALL equipment/items. Especially when entire artisan subclasses are designed around producing those items. To do anything else will result in endless complaining over how unfair the whole system is.
 
 
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Old 12-22-2004, 12:29 AM   #19
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Hard numbers would be nice... This helps, but doesn't 100% solve the problem. Now I will try to buy Average or Superior for my level, or any red con, but it would be cool to see hard numbers so I don't spend extra cash maxing out.
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Old 12-22-2004, 01:56 AM   #20
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Sebastien wrote:Not to hijack the thread, but that isn't correct."The AC value indicates how much damage reduction that piece of armor provides for you. Two different items with the same AC provide the same protection, regardless of whether the armor is light or heavy armor, or whether it was obtained from a creature, quest or crafter."Prima Official Game Guide, pg 47
Lol, you trust the Prima guide? Try quoting something thats a reliable source next time... SMILEY
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Old 12-22-2004, 04:44 PM   #21
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Prima OFFICIAL guide comes from SOE words i think, so if that is not correct would mean SOE dont understand their own game?
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Old 12-22-2004, 11:08 PM   #22
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Akilles wrote:
Prima OFFICIAL guide comes from SOE words i think, so if that is not correct would mean SOE dont understand their own game?



The developer who designed the armor system was explaining it on the Beta boards at one point. How much armor mitigates damage is based on the following major factors:
1) Level tier of the item
2) Type of armor (heavy / medium)
3) Level of the player (i.e. how does the item con?)
4) Quality of the armor (store-bought, common drop, common crafted, rare crafted, etc)

Based on all of that, there is some number, call it X%, that a piece of armor mitigates from even con monsters. This number is NOT listed on the armor. Instead, we have an AC scale that attempts to account for all the factors and give a "soft number". The soft number is actually a fairly good descriptor of how useful a piece is as long as you don't do goofy things like compare orange light armor with grey con heavy armor. Against monsters your level (it was specifically stated) mitigation from grey con armor pieces does not function as advertised by the AC number. But even so, knowing you have, say, 1500 AC, doesn't actually tell you anything about your mitigation level - all it is is a comparative stat - is X better than Y? If X is better than Y, you have no idea if it's 10% better or 0.1% better, and neither do your customers.

They could implement a similar system for food. Instead of Satiation: Average, they could have "Satiation: 1000" and then all other levels could be multiples of 100 less or greater than that (Satitation: 900 for summoned, Satiation: 1100 for most crafted food). This would give you numbers, but they wouldn't be any more helpful than the word descriptors. The only thing it would help is that you wouldn't have to remember the order of the categories. I'm not sure if this would satisfy people who want exact specifications on things, but it would display some numbers.

The truth is that as players we are still guessing on most of the effects of stuff in EQ2. So your necklace has +3 Agility, +20 Divine. What good does that do? ATM, nobody knows exactly. How much mitigation does armor really offer for the AC? Any tank that's watched their damage numbers will tell you that the numbers listed on weapons are for deep, deep greys, not for anything your level, and it will vary wildly on mobs close to your level based on what you happen to be fighting. Exactly how much good does upgrading Bestowal of Vitae from App 1 to App 3 do? Potion descriptions, racial abilities, spell effects, almost everything in the game hides the actual numbers used for the effect on you. The only stats we have listed, with the exception of Health and Power, we don't know exactly what they do and how much an increase is worth.

Any crafter is going to be in the position of selling people things that may or may not be a meaningful upgrade for them. That expensive rare-crafted armor might increase mitigation by a tiny tiny amount. Those incredible-looking resists on jewelry might not actually help your resistance very much. That spell upgrade might not be actually worth getting at the cost it has to be sold at. Food is not really any different, except there are far less variables. There is no dropped food, there is no rare crafted food. If it's crafted, and the right Tier, it's better than store-bought. Nobody demands to know how exactly how much effect a piece of armor will have on their damage before they buy it, so why do they need to know exactly how much better crafted food is than store-bought?

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Old 12-23-2004, 10:50 AM   #23
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tharvey wrote:

 Nobody demands to know how exactly how much effect a piece of armor will have on their damage before they buy it, so why do they need to know exactly how much better crafted food is than store-bought?


 


The information quoted prior to your above statement is certainly something I was not aware of and I am betting that very VERY few people are aware of this (assuming there is truth in the statement). I am also betting that should this information be more widely known, there would be a significant demand from players for more accurate information. I think the premise from those arguing for stats is that the quoted numbers for other stats are an accurate reflection of their true worth. Taking an extreme example; it's possible that 500 of my 1000 ac is totally worthless because it is coming from 'grey' armour? If this was common knowledge I don't think it would sit well with many people. It's certainly an eye-opener for me; the implications don't bear thinking about!

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Old 12-24-2004, 11:05 AM   #24
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Isycz wrote:



tharvey wrote:

 Nobody demands to know how exactly how much effect a piece of armor will have on their damage before they buy it, so why do they need to know exactly how much better crafted food is than store-bought?


 


The information quoted prior to your above statement is certainly something I was not aware of and I am betting that very VERY few people are aware of this (assuming there is truth in the statement). I am also betting that should this information be more widely known, there would be a significant demand from players for more accurate information. I think the premise from those arguing for stats is that the quoted numbers for other stats are an accurate reflection of their true worth. Taking an extreme example; it's possible that 500 of my 1000 ac is totally worthless because it is coming from 'grey' armour? If this was common knowledge I don't think it would sit well with many people. It's certainly an eye-opener for me; the implications don't bear thinking about!



Even assuming that AC is an accurate measure of armor quality (which it more or less is, if you don't keep grey-con armor), I don't think people are aware that we still don't have any idea how the scale is layed out. There's an implicit assumption that the scale is more or less linear - that raising AC from 1300 to 1400 does about the same as raising it from 1400 to 1500. But the truth is we have absolutely no idea that this is true. Against a particular monster, raising AC from 1300 to 1400 might cause mitigation to go up 5%, but from 1400 to 1500 only 1%. Or the reverse. Or there might be several threshold values above which mitigation increases, but between which nothing changes at all - in other words going from 1299 to 1301 might be more significant than going from 1301 to 1399.

Armor sales are based on an assumption - the assumption that the quality of the piece is noticeably better than the current piece of armor it displaces. Displaying Armor Class values ensures that is, in fact, better, but offers no guarantee at all on the 'noticeably" part. Stat bonuses are the same way. Anyone can tell that +5 strength is better than +2 strength, but what is the difference worth in practical terms? (In EQ1, for instance, 3 strength was not particularly useful). More importantly, is it worth buying something just to gain 3 extra strength? People are still arguing about the exact value of App 3 upgrades (and whether they are worth the steep price they are often Broker-listed for).

What numbers do is facilitate that assumption process. If people had to guess what kind of stat boosts an item provided before they buy it, they would be less likely to consider it an upgrade and buy it, even if the stat boosts in question are of no practical value. App 3 is clearly better than App 1, so people buy it, whether it's a 20% upgrade, a 10% upgrade, a 1% upgrade, or a 0.1% upgrade. Food could do something similar by replacing satiation level names with numbers (1 for low, 2 for average, 3 for high), and people would be more likely buy Satiation: 3 drink just because it's clearly better than summoned (Satiation:1), even if nobody knows exactly how much better it is.

The further question, that's being obscured by all of the complaints about ability to see value of food / drink, is whether players are likely to purchase consumables that provide only a modest benefit over store-bought food (in terms of regeneration rates, excluding cost and duration). There is an implicit assumption that if the rates are posted exactly and players, armed with this exact knowledge, find food and drink not worth the cost, the relative value of crafted and store-bought will be adjusted to make crafted more attractive. But this may not be the case. At least with SOME grey area on exactly how much high-satiation food is worth, there is room for marketing and, to be frank, taking advantage of people that will buy the "best" thing no matter the cost. By asking for exact rates to be posted, provisioners may actually KILL their market if the developers decide not to adjust the regeneration rates at all and they are insufficient to support sales.

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Old 12-24-2004, 12:08 PM   #25
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Akilles wrote:
Prima OFFICIAL guide comes from SOE words i think, so if that is not correct would mean SOE dont understand their own game?

Its still written by Prima not SOE. Official just means they liscenced it from SOE, not that SOE actually wrote it.Not to mention that things change so fast in this kind of game that strat guides are outdated by the time they reach the shelves.
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Old 12-24-2004, 06:05 PM   #26
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Well, let me throw my hat into the ring and say that I would not like to see 'hard numbers' for food and drink.  Couple of points you might think about:
 
1) Yes, weapons and armor do show numbers for damage and AC, but as someone pointed out, these are 'soft numbers' based on plenty of other factors.  Just because a weapons has a base damage of 4-8 doesn't mean that I will always hit for 4 or 8 ...or even be anywhere in that range.  It's simply an indication of its modifier so that someone can look at two weapons and see the difference.  I can't think of a single thing in game currently that offers 'hard numbers'...
 
Saturation level ...while a little vague on what that might mean ...is provided, just like AC and base damage.  I can look at two different food or drink items and see how they compare with one another.  I don't need, or even want, to see that one food has a 2 point regen advantage over another because, as God is my witness, you will doom the provisioner class to only making the kind of food that the min/maxxers have determined is .00001 more efficient than any other.
 
Personally, I don't want to play this game with a calculator.  There needs to be *some* semblance of 'environment' and *some* attempt at emersion into that environment.  Being able to see the exact benefit of every item in 'hard numbers' utterly ruins that aspect.  I think some people would be perfectly content with replacing the pixels of a graphical world with ...a matrix screen showing nothing but scrolling numbers.

Message Edited by RigorreEQII on 12-24-2004 05:06 AM

Message Edited by RigorreEQII on 12-24-2004 06:49 AM

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Old 12-24-2004, 09:56 PM   #27
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tharvey wrote:

 At least with SOME grey area on exactly how much high-satiation food is worth, there is room for marketing and, to be frank, taking advantage of people that will buy the "best" thing no matter the cost. By asking for exact rates to be posted, provisioners may actually KILL their market if the developers decide not to adjust the regeneration rates at all and they are insufficient to support sales.


 



 

Food and drink regeneration rates can be precisely measured. There is no 'grey' area. Putting stats on food simply makes it more convenient for the consumer.  As a provisioner, I don't want people buying the more expensive items simply because it might be better than a cheaper and more suitable item. It's not all about making money, it's about providing players with an informed choice. If SOE do not put regeneration rates on food and drink all that will happen is people will build an information database outside of the game with informaiton that would be better serverd in-game. 
 
I don't see any long term advantage in 'hiding' stats on food and drink. All it will do in the short term and long term is frustrate both crafters and consumers.
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Old 12-27-2004, 05:28 AM   #28
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If you always got the maximum benefit from a drink or food, then the con system of eatibles will be enough. The problem is that because there is a maximum benefit cap factored by your level compared to the level of the drink or food, you wont know which drink/food will be just enough to reach that cap.
 
However, using a con'ing system might perhaps work afterall. Im not on the test server, but I was hoping for something like this:
 
Red color= You can eat/drink it, but it is WAY "over the cap"
Orange color = you can drink/eat it, but its "over the cap" for the next few levels
White color= Perfect match - nothing is wasted.
Blue, green, grey color= etc - you get the point
 
But.. This poses more questions for me.
1. As it is now, all the foods and drinks of the same tier have exactly the same benefits. This con'ing system described here will not make any sense unless there is a substantial change to the current layout of eatibles and their effects. Will a level 26 food actually BE better than a lvl 25 food?
2. Or is this meant to only help players get a general orientation in the world of food, like knowing when you are over, on, and under the cap? AKA the eatibles stay as they are now in regards to effects?

 

Message Edited by Mimzel on 12-27-2004 01:36 AM

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Old 12-29-2004, 02:30 AM   #29
Yodaya

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The numbers in armor and weapons are accurate. There is a base number which is shown in white. The number in green is the actual number which you will get and if you look at the same piece from different characters, you will see different values.
 
Therefore, prima guide is correct.
 
Having said that, I would love to see a similar numbering system for food as well. Which will show me the exact number which I will get.
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Old 12-29-2004, 10:53 AM   #30
CerraWhisperwind

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Yodaya wrote:
The numbers in armor and weapons are accurate. There is a base number which is shown in white. The number in green is the actual number which you will get and if you look at the same piece from different characters, you will see different values.
Therefore, prima guide is correct.
Having said that, I would love to see a similar numbering system for food as well. Which will show me the exact number which I will get.

If the range of values is correct, why do I never get the top range? most of the time I get values near the bottom of the range.Even if the numbers are correct, how are they determined? Is 2-6 a random number between 1 and 5 + 1? or is it a random number between 1 and 6 with all 1s counting as 2s? or is it a random number between 1 and 3 generated twice and added together?There is a lot we don't know about how stuff works, and prima guides are historically unreliable. Did you ever see the one they did for EQ at launch?
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