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Old 03-23-2006, 06:00 PM   #1
Ealenya

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Hello,my guild is a small raiding guild, and we only have 2 mystics (no defilers), unfortunately one of them quite casual and our more active mystic is usually the only shaman in raids.This mystic asked lately what she is supposed to do during raids, at the moment she wards (single and group wards), debuffs, cures and heals, but it consumes a lot of power and she doesn't have the feeling it is very power efficient.If she is the only shaman in raid and she is in the MT group, what is she supposed to do? I would say keep wards and debuffs up, there are enough other healers for direct heals and the templar/warden who also are in the MT group can cure (they have less debuffs to cast, so I guess more time/power to cure), but I would like to hear the opinion of experienced mystics about this SMILEYIf the other mystic is also online, one of them will be in the MT group, what should the other one do? In that case, I think the MT mystic wards, heals and cures, and the other one takes care of debuffs and direct heals....But as I said, I would love to have your feedback about it, I have never played a shaman in raids (yet!), I am currently leveling a defiler because the guild needs one and your feedback could probably help me as well (mystics and defilers are not "that" different, are they?)Thank you very much in advance for your answers! SMILEY
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Old 03-23-2006, 06:05 PM   #2
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If you only have the one shaman, dont have them waste power on heals, any healer can take up that slack.  Keep the debuffs up, especially the dps and attack speed reducers, as well as ward.  Any priest can cure ailments, so try to have others share the wealth if other healers are not running out of power as much, but ur shammy should know to cast Ancient Balm if numerous ailments are on the tank.  Make sure they "biggie size" (Bolster) your tank whenever possible too SMILEY

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Old 03-23-2006, 06:19 PM   #3
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In that position I would agree with the above poster:DPS DebuffSlowAncient BalmBolsterSingle Target WardGroup ward isn't very effective on raids IMO and if you have enough healers it's a waste of mana. Oberon Barrier is worth casting as well I'd say. I'd usually say STA debuff but it's currently bugged.

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Old 03-23-2006, 08:27 PM   #4
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I've not yet seen any definitive proof that STA debuffs are currently bugged.  This is a rumor without any substantiation at this point.
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Old 03-23-2006, 08:40 PM   #5
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Is the rest of the raid force similarly new to raiding?  If so, a Porcupine/Oberon/Focused Benefaction rotation works well enough for getting people used to the raiding.As for what the mystic should specifically be doing it depends very largely on what other classes are on the raid.  There is not one debuff that mystics have that can not be debuffed to the cap by the right combination of others.For the most exact help, we would need a list of what classes you do have, which is not something all raiding forces allow to be given out.When the second mystic is around, he should take over for all the debuffing, group ward before AEs, and spot heal the people in his group.
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Old 03-23-2006, 08:51 PM   #6
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As a defiler in raids and im usually in mt group i do things in this order:

Buff -> Pre-Ward -> Debuff -> Ward -> Heal -> Spot heal

Buff : Dont really have any short term buffs so buffs take care of themselves.

Pre-Ward : I stack up single and group ward if the monk is in another group, and single ward only if the monk is in my group.

Debuff : First thing i do in 90% of al fights is land my sta debuffs, they are basically huge nukes and my defiler one has other very usefull debuffs too, in peticular wis debuff that helps me land the rest of the debuffs, after that i land either my disease debuffs or slows/dps reducers depending on how resistant the mob is. I make sure all my debuffs are up at all times as first prioriy no matter what.

Ward : When im done debuffing i start putting up wards, usually this is about when the tank takes aggro from the pulling monk.

Most fights this is as far as i get because we are healer heavy mostly, i keep up wards and debuffs and if time i debuffs disease so our dps goes up a lil.

Heal : If the fight is heavy and the tank gets hit for alot ill throw in a direct heal or group heal in ae enviroments.

Spot heals : If i got time ill look around and throw a spot heal where needed.

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Old 03-24-2006, 06:11 PM   #7
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If she is the only shaman in raid and she is in the MT group, what is she supposed to do? I would say keep wards and debuffs up, there are enough other healers for direct heals and the templar/warden who also are in the MT group can cure (they have less debuffs to cast, so I guess more time/power to cure), but I would like to hear the opinion of experienced mystics about this SMILEYIf the other mystic is also online, one of them will be in the MT group, what should the other one do? In that case, I think the MT mystic wards, heals and cures, and the other one takes care of debuffs and direct heals....
You are right in the idea of keeping wards and debuffs up. I only direct heal if the tank is getting low on health and my wards or torpor are not ready to cast. Here are the tools I use in a small raiding guild as often the only shaman present in a raid that is usually light on healers:
 
Bolster: Cast immediately before incoming or on incoming. Recast if it's a long fight.
Ward/group ward: Precast if the tank can easily get taunt off on the pull, start casting on incoming if not. I generally cast these constantly in a tough fight because you never know when the mob will get a big hit off. If things seem to be going well and the other healers have alot of mana I might concentrate on debuffs and only use single target ward.
Debuffs: Cast and recast while wards are refreshing, stamina debuffs first. I don't know if stamina debuffs work the same as they used to or not but you used to be able to only cast them once and the mob's HP would be lost for the duration of the encounter. Anyhow, after the initial sta debuff I usually only recast sta if I have excess power/time which means fairly trivial fight. I try to keep the two slows and dps debuff up at all times. I tend to refresh these fairly early (long before they wear off) if I can because they really seem to make a difference and if they wear off at a bad time it becomes worse.
Torpor: Cast after the tank has positioned the mob. The combat slow part of this shouldn't matter because the tank should not be autoattacking to avoid reposte. It's a good spell to cast before you go on a debuffing spree.
Umbral attendant: I've found that other healers in the MT group tend to be able to group heal better. Low mana cost on this one though so when the MT is taking alot of damage, the group isn't at full health and ward recast is down it's a good one to cast.
Cures and the short term poison/disease buff/ward: Really depends on the mob. If a mob  has a poison/disease AoE and the raid leaders know the timing of it you can use the short term buff to your advantage, but the timing is tricky. For cures, I try to cure the tank and group cure poison/diease/arcane if it comes up.
 
Sometimes I feel like I'm the busiest person on the raid besides the tank lol. By just warding and debuffing I do tend to use more power than the other healers and many fights require judgement calls, everything seems situational. I am constantly asking myself "which spell can I cast now that would be most effective?"  Sometimes I can't even fully debuff if we are low on healers because the tank needs every healer's full attention to keep him up. Switching out to higher wisdom/higher power/flowing thought (but perhaps lower mitigation) gear, using manastone, mage shards and necro hearts every chance you get (before you are low on power!) and pestering the mages/necros for new ones is a good idea. I have a bag and a half of gear that I wear for resists, soloing and healing situations.
 
If there is another mystic in the raid the load gets alot lighter. The 2nd mystic can cast single target ward on the tank and do debuffs. Setting up a bolster rotation also would be good.
 
Edit: I'd love to hear from others if I can improve this in any way.

Message Edited by Moonspinner on 03-24-200606:16 AM

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Old 03-24-2006, 11:48 PM   #8
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I disagree on keeping your ward up all the time.  That is a sure fire way to be out of power in a longer fight.  Cast it on incoming, and when you see damage spikes.  Let the HoTs and reactives fire off under the ward to bring the tank up.  If your ward is up when the MT is in the green, those other specialty heals aren't doing anything.  After the initial barage of damage, I tend to focus mainly on maintaining debuffs. 
 
You might have to augment this a bit, especially with a new group.  Basically, it just takes time to get used to.  The hardest part of begining to raid is getting everyone keyed in on what their job is.  Once everyone figures that out, the rest goes relatively smoothly. 
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Old 03-25-2006, 01:17 AM   #9
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I was the only Mystic in my guild for a very long time, and often the only shaman also. I can certainly relate to feeling like one of the busiest people in a raid. But since several other classes can debuff and slow, I know it's not all riding on me to get my debuffs off or the raid wipes.I generally ward and cast Bolster on a pull, unless it's a really nasty pull that I could grab aggro on from the ward. I get my ae sta/resists debuff on first then the dps slow asap. Re-ward and patch heal as necessary then apply other debuffs as needed. I used to worry more about the healing aspect but I've learned that there are other classes much better suited for the healing aspect of raids, so I let it ride and don't worry too much even when the tank gets low. If you know and trust the other priests in the raid, you won't feel so overwhelmed trying to do everything at once.By the way, get your clerics (especially the MT one) to take the Divine Recovery achievement skill. This is a fantastic cast/recast haste skill. It only lasts for 24 seconds but it allows the entire group to fire off twice as fast as normal. You can get all of your debuffs on in like 5 seconds! It is a raid pull lifesaver, or a great "oh crap" button if things go bad.
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Old 03-26-2006, 01:10 PM   #10
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I was reading this and i stumbled upon this here i found out this is very usefull information for me because im involved in a few raids thought out the week. But i know i was reading andi got the idea from somone else cant remember there name, but they where saying for me being a 65 mystic to use my single target ward then use my Torpor and then use Oberon i found this to be usefull and very affective in groups, but im having trouble making this into a macro now can anyone please help me with this problem that im facing. I would like to let the group know that i will be stunned of course so if someone can write how they have there set up that wouldbe awsome thank you
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Old 03-27-2006, 05:32 AM   #11
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That's actually a poor order to cast those in.  Remember, first Ward up takes damage first.

Since Torpor regenerates, you want it on first.  Follow it with ST Ward of your flavor and then Oberon if you want to do that.

Honestly, I've never seen a situation that called for THAT much Ward in a single group, but there it is if you want / need it.

Personally, I'd replace Oberon with a Group Ward in that scenario so I was still able to cast cures and group heals as necessary instead of being tied to one Ward on one player for 36 seconds.

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Old 03-27-2006, 02:02 PM   #12
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We are not new to raiding, but we are not "optimized" and we have to raid with whatever classes are available (without troubadour, coercer, illusionist, sometimes with an inquisitor in the MT group because our templar is not on etc...)My mystic friend is not new to raiding either, but when she is the only shaman, some people have the need to boss her around "do this, do that, don't do this!!" this is why she was a bit confused and suddenly tried to do everything at once.Thanks a lot for your time, your answers have helped a lot, and helped me as well! I have raided as a warden and as an inquisitor, but not yet as a shaman, so you really helped me understand how shaman are different from other healers and how to play during a raid. Can't wait for my first raid! (still need to level a bit SMILEY )
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Old 03-27-2006, 04:47 PM   #13
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Banditman wrote:

That's actually a poor order to cast those in.  Remember, first Ward up takes damage first.

Since Torpor regenerates, you want it on first.  Follow it with ST Ward of your flavor and then Oberon if you want to do that.


But since Torpor is also a ward, won't it go away when the ward has taken its part?

The few times I've been in a raidlike situation, my ST ward got eaten before casting time on torpor was over.

My order is ST ward, haze, torpor, ST ward, soul, heal, group ward, ST ward. With the occasional balm/group cure thrown in when necessary.

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Old 03-27-2006, 05:00 PM   #14
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thing is, torpor regenerates its ward.if torpor is cast before the single ward, the normal ward-stacking rules apply, even for the regenerated partmeans, torpor catches as much as it can get, rest goes into ST ward until torpor ward regenerates. Then the torpor-ward catches the damage again until its used up, rinse repeat et all.
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Old 03-27-2006, 08:32 PM   #15
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From the posts in this thread, it sounds like this statement should be corrected:
"Wards function on a Last In First Out basis, this means that a Ward casted later will take precedence over an earlier ward."
 
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Old 03-28-2006, 12:16 AM   #16
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Indeed.  Banditman already put a correction there for him.  SMILEYBasically, it's a first in first hit system as he explains.  Check it out.
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Old 03-28-2006, 01:04 AM   #17
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I really detest misinformation being spread.  SMILEY
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Old 03-28-2006, 02:24 AM   #18
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While Torpor's little regenerating ward is fine and dandy, when the topic is raiding, Torpor doesn't stand up to raid mob sized hits, not at all.Trash mobs can hit for 2k....our best ST ward gets eaten thru with damage still hitting the target in these cases. A 500 hp ward that only regenerates half of that at a time every few seconds, plus a ~180 hp hotl with it is not significant enough to be considered a tactical advantage in most cases. It's a pretty good patch heal, and works ok when a mob is weak or totally debuffed to [Removed for Content], but I really don't see a reason to argue for its being cast in any particular order.Throw it on when you need it, even if it's just for the hot. Don't worry about whether you're maximizing the ward or not because we have real wards that deserve this consideration much more.
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Old 03-28-2006, 02:37 AM   #19
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I find that I cast my ST Ward so often in raids that it winds up in the correct slot regardless of the order I cast in.  I was more thinking of just a group, since on a raid you are not the only one healing and frankly I'd rather stick a Haze or Soul than cast Torpor.  The overall effect is a lot more.
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Old 05-26-2006, 06:54 PM   #20
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When I'm main healer I keep ST ward on the MT and then cast the group ward. When the ST ward is down, I recast it. When the group ward is down, I recast it. That way, both wards are always up. But a new won't be recast until the old one runs out or wears out. I debuff mob dps and attack speed in between casts. This can consume a lot of mana, but usually the dps gets the job done before I run out.

The other healers in the raid will patch heal what goes through the ward  and cure effects.

Our biggest "healing" problem is not curing debilitate fast enough. One or two debilitates on the MT for just 2-3 seconds and it's almost a guaranteed wipe.

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Old 05-27-2006, 12:56 PM   #21
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im not the only shaman in guild but sometimes i am in raid and i dont find i run out of power much faster then others.
Id say i dont have a specific order it much depends on the mob.
 
usually though i start with a ST ward. then debuff order depends-
on trash and also several nameds i start off with the stamina debuffs, followed by liturgy or soul depending on if its a solo mob or a group, usually if its just a bunch of trash mobs ill just cast group stamina and group slow debuff and forget the single target ones.
 
if its a hard named ill usually start with soul though, followed by haze, liturgy and then sta debuffs.  
 
ofcourse ill throw in wards as needed too. generally its not useful though if the tank is at full hp since when he gets hit even if no damage gets thru the clerics reactives will be eaten up.  
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Old 05-27-2006, 02:55 PM   #22
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I know it was mentioned briefly, and even though it isn't a crucial fact, I wanted to expand on one detail.

Bolster is raid-wide. I think someone mentioned using it in rotation and it's important to remember that when the second Mystic is in the raid both Mystics can set up a rotation between the two of them for efficiency sake.

No, this isn't going to make or break the encounter but at Master 1 you're giving the tank 20% increase to his total HP, and at full-health this can give the tank quite an advantage should the mob hit with a major nuke. It's an excellent extra buffer. My MT always gets a rise (pun intended) out of his HP and Stat's all going up by 20% (STA increase adding even more HP). The 45% size increase is just ...well..amusing.

When you've got 2 Mystics to share Bolstering, you can give your MT an advantage when those raid-mobs toss out some Burst-DPS. And of course the MT's just love seeing themselves towering over everyone else SMILEY

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Old 05-30-2006, 04:59 PM   #23
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On pull, it's typically Ethereal Aegis, Torpor, Wail, Eidolon, Haze, Lamenting for me.
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Old 05-30-2006, 07:23 PM   #24
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In my case (assuming a single target)Soul, Ancients, Eidolon, Haze (then lethargy if I know there are no other slows present but mine, which almost never happens... but I still use it in case someone dies when i have a chance to cast it). If the mob doesn't require the immediate noxious/elemental debuff, ancients is definitely moved to the back of the list. Of course, this order is tailored to my raid force, and who throws which debuffs when in the other classes that are around (for example thats why my slows are last, someone else pretty much has it covered and I mainly keep them there in case the debuff falls).I rely on other priests to worry about the initial spike (a fury with urchin really helps here), and tend to stay away from torpor until a mob is fully positioned (i.e., i know no repositions will be necessary). I can usually nail soul and start casting wail before the mob is even fully setup, but I also know my tank very well and know how he pulls which mobs in most situations).IMO, on the pull the right debuff goes much farther then a 1.8k ward on current content, especially considering that many other priest classes have a chance to heal much sooner into a fight (many do immediately) or have debuffs that just aren't a priority (I consider some of ours to be... again, this is dependant on your raid force, and how other classes with the debuffs prioritize/apply them).It seems to me that mobs in this tier have: a)higher auto-attack damage and b) a higher auto- to CA/spell ratio (meaning, MORE auto-attack), and while a ward will protect against that first hit, lamenting protects against every auto-attack hit thrown. Of course, this might just be my perception, I'll have to look into some logs comparing this sometime.
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Old 05-31-2006, 06:56 PM   #25
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yes, torpor isnt very effective on pull.. my spell order is usually (mob pending) bolster - ethereal aegis - lamenting soul (decrease dps) - send pet (str aa must be completed) - ..  when ST ward fades ill toss another up (group ward before AE goes off [good shaman has timer ready] - complete debuffs between wards ( extremely important cleric in your group has the aa mystique was talking about ) - i reach for torpor and oberon barrier when i am close to out of mana (rarity) wizards/warlocks/dirges should be feeding mana to MT healers while they are joustingIt is extremely important you do not waste mana on ST healing/group healing. Use these heals if the MT is going down and your raid leader is shouting "GET THAT MOTHER[expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ER UP" Save the burst healing for druids and while debuffing the clerics will take over the parser.While it is a good practice for all healers to at least attempt to cure.. you will be better off giving certain healers in the raid the job to cure impairments and ailments - If you have the advantage of two shamans - one of the should spec the sta line which speeds the cast/recast/and lowers the mana usage of all basic cure spells. Group cure when needed.
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Old 05-31-2006, 08:17 PM   #26
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lol.I can't believe no one else has done the math.A Mystic's biggest heal?  Oberon Barrier.  (about 13k HP over 36 seconds @ Adept 3 for 547 power)A Mystic's second biggest heal?  Torpor.  (about 2800 HP over 14 seconds @ Adept 3 for 262 power)Now, with Oberon up, I can't debuff the mob, so it's not exactly my best choice.Ethereal Aegis runs about 1550 HP @ Adept 3 for 190 power.Notice anything?  Yea, Torpor is a bigger heal than Ethereal Aegis.  Given the choice between casting two EA's or 1 EA + Torpor, I'll take option 2.  Especially at the beginning of a fight where the tank is likely to be taking the most damage.In a recent raid fight against Gnorbl (last night), I healed a total of 74k HP.  Of that total, Torpor accounted for 21940 HP.  Yea.  Wow.So yea, if it's "ineffective" on pull, I'm guilty as charged of using my biggest non-stunned heal at the time when the tank most needs every single HP he can get.
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Old 05-31-2006, 08:49 PM   #27
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Banditman wrote:
So yea, if it's "ineffective" on pull, I'm guilty as charged of using my biggest non-stunned heal at the time when the tank most needs every single HP he can get.

I assume he means the snare component of Torpor makes it harder for the Tank to position properly.

I never realized Oberon Barrier was that huge a heal for that minimal power cost. Nice math.

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Old 05-31-2006, 09:47 PM   #28
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i´m the only mystic in my raidgroup, but never in the mt group since we have a defiler. My first cast on every pull is bolster, the second the dps debuff lamenting (since sta debuffs take effect all time up) then ethereal aegis, wail, haze, torpor, eidolon. if i would be in mt group, i would use some mana items, recast eidolon an haze and then go in oberon modus. and one last: you cant hold wards up, they are consumed in 0.1seconds SMILEY
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Old 05-31-2006, 11:15 PM   #29
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The only drawback to Oberon is the stun.  You can actually do more healing by using your other tools, as well as casting cures.  However, when power may be a problem, Oberon definitely is efficient.
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Old 05-31-2006, 11:30 PM   #30
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rickfrey29726 wrote:
yes, torpor isnt very effective on pull.. my spell order is usually (mob pending) bolster - ethereal aegis - lamenting soul (decrease dps) - send pet (str aa must be completed) - ..  when ST ward fades ill toss another up (group ward before AE goes off [good shaman has timer ready] - complete debuffs between wards ( extremely important cleric in your group has the aa mystique was talking about ) - i reach for torpor and oberon barrier when i am close to out of mana (rarity) wizards/warlocks/dirges should be feeding mana to MT healers while they are joustingTorpor is AWESOME on the pull whenever possible, the thing does like 3.5kish at master 1 over its length (last time I added it up at least). But given the sheer number of mobs that have to be dragged from whoever is it to the nearest wall/corner due to knockback (this is definitely easier in situations when you can park the "it" guy on top of the tank) it by necessity often can't be the first healing spell I use anymore =(. Here's to hoping that changes in future content.It is extremely important you do not waste mana on ST healing/group healing. Use these heals if the MT is going down and your raid leader is shouting "GET THAT MOTHER[expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ER UP" Save the burst healing for druids and while debuffing the clerics will take over the parser.Eh... I'd get some FT gear... I outheal my entire raid while running every debuff we have (of course, this is due to the nature of a ward being applied first =P). Of course, I only have to gear for FT25ish or so (somewhat easy given current content/quest rewards, as Mark+DT access+GK and you have it right there) because I'm usually hard capped w/ bard and chanter regen in group. The vaults helm is also your biggest single priority as far as loot in this tier; the sheer mana regen on it, if clicked whenever its up, comes out to be something like FT809810981343.While it is a good practice for all healers to at least attempt to cure.. you will be better off giving certain healers in the raid the job to cure impairments and ailments - If you have the advantage of two shamans - one of the should spec the sta line which speeds the cast/recast/and lowers the mana usage of all basic cure spells. Group cure when needed.I also have the STA line, so I am the person that does most of the curing. At best I think I'm neutral about this statement, as it does depend upon your setup. I would say Ancient Balm can be blindly spammed even when NOT in the MT group if you know that there is a fight where a)tons of effects till be up on the tank or b)a certain effect on the tank would ruin your day (Despoiling Mist, Debilitate, etc). Of course, I also use this as a tool in new zones, as you can find out what classes you are fighting about 5 seconds into the fight if you have your UI setup to where cure messages aren't lost in the spam.Overall it sounds like you play from the perspective of being forced to be very tight with mana... mayhap that is a matter of your raid force makeup, but almost none of what you described above is how it is for me.  If it is lack of in-combat power regen, KoS has a ton to offer as far as flowing thought, even on treasured items. While the items are somewhat mediocre compared to fabled raid drops in some cases, their FT value make them superior on longer fights.In-combat power regen from items caps at 52.5 in this tier; overall in-combat power regen caps at 105. I would make it my goal to attempt to hit these caps, as I believe it is viable even without full fabled/etc. That might change your perspective on power spending somewhat and allow you to enjoy the full capability of this class.

Message Edited by Thatdumbguy on 05-31-2006 12:31 PM

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