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Old 03-03-2009, 10:28 PM   #61
Zarador

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Ke'la Wrote:

This argument assumes that without SC/LoN that those devs working on those items would be employed working on the EQ2 dev team, designing stuff and improving the game... the fact of the matter is if SC/LoN didn't exist chances are NOTHING that came from them would be in game now... SC and LoN are both self supporting entities meaning that they take NO resources from EQ2 core because the money they make goes right back into supporting thier programs... If anything EQ2 gets more resources because of SC and LoN as EQ2 being a viable game is what makes SC and LoN profitable. Also they can use SC and LoN to justify the additional artiest required to make Base Models and then turn around and recolor them for non-SC/LoN uses.

That's been exactly the point that I was attempting to make. Any changes to the game for the positive made by LoN/SC were made at the expense of that program.  As they clearly stated with the Living Legacy program, they developed the live events around that program and were it not for Living Legacy, those events would have been greatly scaled down.  I don't see this as being any different.

Some people will have an added interest in the game because of SC/LoN and even RAF. Their all self supportive events and platforms that provide incentives for the players and for the company (since more revenue = more development, for more return on investment).

This does not seem to have been a choice of "Would you like us to put the money into this or that" but rather a case of "We need to generate more income and more players, this is what we are doing".

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Old 03-03-2009, 10:41 PM   #62
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kela wrote:

This argument assumes that without SC/LoN that those devs working on those items would be employed working on the EQ2 dev team, designing stuff and improving the game... the fact of the matter is if SC/LoN didn't exist chances are NOTHING that came from them would be in game now... SC and LoN are both self supporting entities meaning that they take NO resources from EQ2 core because the money they make goes right back into supporting thier programs... If anything EQ2 gets more resources because of SC and LoN as EQ2 being a viable game is what makes SC and LoN profitable. Also they can use SC and LoN to justify the additional artiest required to make Base Models and then turn around and recolor them for non-SC/LoN uses.

Except that is was flat out stated by one of the Developers in EQ the the Graphics on the clicky illusions he was creating for LoN were forever after forbiden to be made available to characters by other means. This was particularly upsetting because several of the models used had been requested for several years prior to be used as new pet models.

aka. Content available my means outside of LoN was actually decreased, and it was an EQ developer whose time was being used for the developement. (it was Merloc btw)

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Old 03-04-2009, 12:31 AM   #63
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Vain wrote:

Well, SoE developed LoN and SC right? They did this while developers in EQ2 had difficulties meeting deadlines for RoK; while developers in EQ2 wrestle with resources to properly implement a fighter re-vamp (the 1st of many re-vamps); the list goes on.

Last I checked I would not want someone like Picasso working on my car, same holds true for game mechanics people vers game artists. BTW, EQ2 devs had difficulty making thier deadline do to a small thing called FIRE that kept them out of thier office for over a week, just a few weeks befor launch... I don't think a bunch of artists would have helped them get back on schedule. As far as the figher revamp delay goes, that was do directly to PLAYER imput, it was done and ready to go when it hit test, players said it stank, so they went back to the drawing board, that is NOT a lack of resources that is listening to your players.

So, instead of allocating resources directly to EQ2 to alleviate these problems, SoE allocated them to the LoN and SC business units in some sort of attempt to solve issues with fluff.

You assume that they would have allocated the resouces to EQ2 and not some other money making venture or nothing at all. It is far more likly the EQ2 would have gotten less attention if it was not for the addtional revinue streams via LoN and SC, not more.

You will note that my argument does not deal with current resources, but with the initial idea to dedicate resources to a non-essential aspect for any of their exisiting games.

Again you say that like they sudenly took Aeralik's assistant and told him your now a 3d artist working for the SC department. I am sorry, but the skill sets guys like Aeralik and Timetraveling bring to the game are not the same skill sets required to make a pritty picture or design the look of a piece of armor, and visa versa. They did not take resources away from EQ2 and give them to SC, they put resources they would otherwise NOT HAVE and put those to work doing SC stuff.

shaunfletcher wrote:

kela, Firstly some of them ARE new art. completely so. Secondly, a subscription model is ONLY sustainable in return for value on that subscription. You are right that is why LU51 is adding 12 new armor models, and tons of other content.

Should they stop making new stuff then people will stop paying. Its the whole basis and the great charm of the subscription model for me and why I pay into it.. the fact that the game evolves and changes constantly. Im happy as larry to pay for 3 accounts every month to get it. You say you dont think they would make many new fluff items without getting  a bunch of extra cash?  how outrageously complacent of them if so! to take their customers for granted so much. No, I am saying the specific fluff items available from SC and LoN, and ONLY that stuff would not be in the game. If you look at the metric ton of fluff and Non-fluff added FOR FREE between Jan 1 '08 and now, you can see that yes they do want to add stuff to the base game as well, but that does not mean that the stuff from SC or LoN would have ever been added or even thought of without SC or LoN.What they think there are no other games out there? We fund ongoing development of the game by paying every month, but only if we get the fruits of the labours that payment funds. If I want a static game where I pay cash for extras I will buy those. I am sure they are fully aware of the compitition out thier wich is likly why EQ2 has one of the most agressive update cycles of any MMO outtheir most MMOs have had half the number of Free updates EQ2 has had in the same time period.

If you go down a road of saying 'ah no, the subcription only gets you the basics' then I and many others will lose interest. It seems to be the long term trend frankly, and marketing speak or ramblings about capitalistic systems will not cover it up for ever.

Personally I think New T8 Solo, x2 & x4 content, a revamped T5 zone with new quest progressions, new transportation and 12 new armor Models is plently of Value for my "Basic" subscription... I am sorry you dissagree. Oh, and lets not forget the Brew day live event.

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kela wrote:

This argument assumes that without SC/LoN that those devs working on those items would be employed working on the EQ2 dev team, designing stuff and improving the game... the fact of the matter is if SC/LoN didn't exist chances are NOTHING that came from them would be in game now... SC and LoN are both self supporting entities meaning that they take NO resources from EQ2 core because the money they make goes right back into supporting thier programs... If anything EQ2 gets more resources because of SC and LoN as EQ2 being a viable game is what makes SC and LoN profitable. Also they can use SC and LoN to justify the additional artiest required to make Base Models and then turn around and recolor them for non-SC/LoN uses.

Except that is was flat out stated by one of the Developers in EQ the the Graphics on the clicky illusions he was creating for LoN were forever after forbiden to be made available to characters by other means. This was particularly upsetting because several of the models used had been requested for several years prior to be used as new pet models.

aka. Content available my means outside of LoN was actually decreased, and it was an EQ developer whose time was being used for the developement. (it was Merloc btw)

First EQ1 is not EQ2. Second there is a big differance between Clicky Illusions and things like Armor Models. One can have its looks changed fairly completly with recoloring and such, the other can not. Third, you are assuming that any content that was added to LoN would have been added to EQ or EQ2 for free if it was not for SC or LoN, that is a very bad assumtion as the people working on adding SC/LoN content would likly NOT BE WORKING FOR SoE if it was not for SC/LoN.

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Old 03-04-2009, 02:07 AM   #64
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kela wrote:

{0}

[email protected] wrote:

Except that is was flat out stated by one of the Developers in EQ the the Graphics on the clicky illusions he was creating for LoN were forever after forbiden to be made available to characters by other means. This was particularly upsetting because several of the models used had been requested for several years prior to be used as new pet models.

aka. Content available my means outside of LoN was actually decreased, and it was an EQ developer whose time was being used for the developement. (it was Merloc btw)

First EQ1 is not EQ2. Second there is a big differance between Clicky Illusions and things like Armor Models. One can have its looks changed fairly completly with recoloring and such, the other can not. Third, you are assuming that any content that was added to LoN would have been added to EQ or EQ2 for free if it was not for SC or LoN, that is a very bad assumtion as the people working on adding SC/LoN content would likly NOT BE WORKING FOR SoE if it was not for SC/LoN.

  1. Merloc is the item developer for EQ1. Time spent on LoN items is time not spent fixing itemisation.
  2. The models used were already in game. They were bared from usage by players by other means once they were used on LoN items. This was explicitly stated by the developer. In this instance new content was NOT added, existing content had new limitations placed upon it.
  3. The new weapon and shield graphics introduced into EQ were created by that games artists. These are not new hires but already existing staff being tasked with additional duties.
  4. It's the same company. I can assure you that the same policies apply in EQ2. The developers in this game are the ones suppling the itemisation and art.
  5. The largest differance is that at the time LoN came out Merloc was a new hire and still prone to talking about things better left unsaid. Just because no developer in this game will confirm the policies does not mean they are not there.
  6. If you want to see a real example of money from fluff items being fed directly back into a game, go look at City of Heroes. The money from the new costume packs was directly used to hire additional game developers to push new issues out more rapidly and expand the game to include Macintosh. (btw, new issue = an expansion, and they are free. The costume packs are pure fluff, appearance only, and cost a one time $10 fee for account wide access. You can also purchase additional character slots for a nominal one time fee)
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Old 03-04-2009, 03:27 AM   #65
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Galldora wrote:

Eugam wrote:

The sailors cap shouldnt be ingame, or on SC or LON or anywhere but the trashcan Its embarassing but a good sign where the game is.

There's a sailor's cap? What cap is that?

Marketplace has one set of armor with a sailor cap.

It looks like this: http://www.elbsegler.de/1087.jpg

Dont get me wrong. I have no problem with SC. The armor isnt worth the money, the hats are sometimes. Personally i really have spent 10 Euro for the green hood for my warden. It looks good with my animists set from Labs. I destroyed the rest of the armor set though.

But this cap doesnt fit Norrath. I have seen a gnome in shorts, topless and with this cap. In another game it would be a nice gnome sailor, in EQ2 its ridiculous and destroying the visual experience ingame. There are bandana ingame for quite a while but have no visuals. Bandanas are not only scarfs or belts but also used for the head.

http://maskworld.scene7.com/is/imag...rate?$fullsize$

Thats all i am asking/hoping for. That the devs dont put items ingame that destoy the last bit of immersion. Its not that hard it you try.

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Old 03-04-2009, 03:40 AM   #66
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[email protected] wrote:

kela wrote:

{0}

[email protected] wrote:

Except that is was flat out stated by one of the Developers in EQ the the Graphics on the clicky illusions he was creating for LoN were forever after forbiden to be made available to characters by other means. This was particularly upsetting because several of the models used had been requested for several years prior to be used as new pet models.

aka. Content available my means outside of LoN was actually decreased, and it was an EQ developer whose time was being used for the developement. (it was Merloc btw)

First EQ1 is not EQ2. Second there is a big differance between Clicky Illusions and things like Armor Models. One can have its looks changed fairly completly with recoloring and such, the other can not. Third, you are assuming that any content that was added to LoN would have been added to EQ or EQ2 for free if it was not for SC or LoN, that is a very bad assumtion as the people working on adding SC/LoN content would likly NOT BE WORKING FOR SoE if it was not for SC/LoN.

  1. Merloc is the item developer for EQ1. Time spent on LoN items is time not spent fixing itemisation.
  2. The models used were already in game. They were bared from usage by players by other means once they were used on LoN items. This was explicitly stated by the developer. In this instance new content was NOT added, existing content had new limitations placed upon it.
  3. The new weapon and shield graphics introduced into EQ were created by that games artists. These are not new hires but already existing staff being tasked with additional duties.
  4. It's the same company. I can assure you that the same policies apply in EQ2. The developers in this game are the ones suppling the itemisation and art.
  5. The largest differance is that at the time LoN came out Merloc was a new hire and still prone to talking about things better left unsaid. Just because no developer in this game will confirm the policies does not mean they are not there.
  6. If you want to see a real example of money from fluff items being fed directly back into a game, go look at City of Heroes. The money from the new costume packs was directly used to hire additional game developers to push new issues out more rapidly and expand the game to include Macintosh. (btw, new issue = an expansion, and they are free. The costume packs are pure fluff, appearance only, and cost a one time $10 fee for account wide access. You can also purchase additional character slots for a nominal one time fee)
  1. EQ1 is still not EQ2.
  2. So spells that people where casting the day befor LoN came out where not castable the day after? Why was there not a giant revolt over this on the scale of NGE.... or are you talking about NPCs you wanted to turn into?
  3. How do you know that they would not have laid off one of those artists, as it does not take a full year to do the art for an expainsion, remember EQ2 has been doing Yearly expainsions befor EQ1 started and they had to do something with the extra time made available do to longer expainsion cycles.
  4. Your right they are both Sony companies that is why EQ1 has an NGE on the horrizon, and EQ2 is comming out on the PS3... oh wait no, they are SEPERATE DEVISIONS in the same company and as such have differant command structures and policies.
  5. And just because a Dev has not denied it does not mean it is there.
  6. Calling CoH's "Issues" expainsions is laughable... they are at bet Large Live updates, Yes they add 1 big thing(maybe) to the game per "issue" but I would hardly call that an Expainsion... cause what is being added for exsample in the next "Issue" is to my mind just slightly larger then what will be in LU51. If you really want to point to a game with "free" expainsions I would point you in the direction of Eve.
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Old 03-04-2009, 09:04 AM   #67
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kela wrote:

{0}
  1. EQ1 is still not EQ2.
  2. So spells that people where casting the day befor LoN came out where not castable the day after? Why was there not a giant revolt over this on the scale of NGE.... or are you talking about NPCs you wanted to turn into?
  3. How do you know that they would not have laid off one of those artists, as it does not take a full year to do the art for an expainsion, remember EQ2 has been doing Yearly expainsions befor EQ1 started and they had to do something with the extra time made available do to longer expainsion cycles.
  4. Your right they are both Sony companies that is why EQ1 has an NGE on the horrizon, and EQ2 is comming out on the PS3... oh wait no, they are SEPERATE DEVISIONS in the same company and as such have differant command structures and policies.
  5. And just because a Dev has not denied it does not mean it is there.
  6. Calling CoH's "Issues" expainsions is laughable... they are at bet Large Live updates, Yes they add 1 big thing(maybe) to the game per "issue" but I would hardly call that an Expainsion... cause what is being added for exsample in the next "Issue" is to my mind just slightly larger then what will be in LU51. If you really want to point to a game with "free" expainsions I would point you in the direction of Eve.
  1. Your right, they are going to task one games developers with making the LoN items for that game but hire a seperate developer for LoN items in the other game. yea, that makes sense.
  2. The specific models that were used were the ones that people had been asking for as pet models for almost two years. We were told those models were no longer available for player usage and a different set of models (much worse) were offered. The player base in beta completly rejected them.
  3. so now the argument is that LoN is not generating additional developer resources but that resources that have been in place for years are suddenly in jepordy? Limited art resources are often quoted as the reason certain things are not done.
  4. See number 1
  5. No, the the fact that a developer has commented on LoN policies (which extend across multiple games) is relevent.
  6. My point was that revenue from fluff item sales was put directly towards hiring a larger development team, Something SoE has not done. (The next issue btw is Mission Architect which allows for player generated content, we get access to a good chunk of the developers tools to expand the game ourselves)
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Old 03-04-2009, 09:42 AM   #68
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Vain wrote:

Okay, "virtually useless".

By that same logic, an EQ1 player could state that Station Cash is "virtually useless" without EQ1, yet I can use station cash (if I was that way inclined) without using EQ1.

In fact, Eq2 is a very small part of what station cash is about, with Free Realms and The Agancy being the prime areas of use for it. Without EQ2, station cash will remain 99% untouched.

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Old 03-04-2009, 09:49 AM   #69
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Vain wrote:

Well, SoE developed LoN and SC right? They did this while developers in EQ2 had difficulties meeting deadlines for RoK; while developers in EQ2 wrestle with resources to properly implement a fighter re-vamp (the 1st of many re-vamps); the list goes on.

The majority of the work being put in to AC items are from the art department.

Art for expansions is finished well ahead of any other content, often to the point where art is (99%) finished before the art of the item gets allocated to an item, or a zone gets populated (that last 1% being small tweaks).

Since the fighter revamp is Aeralik mostly, this has absolutly no impact on the art team. Since SC came a year after the RoK expansion, it had no effect on the expansion.

As to the non essential resourse comment, thats what most of the art in game is. A graphic artest takes about 2 days to produce a new hat graphic (according to Lotus, ex character art lead), and since the majority of new appearances on SC are either a new helm or are an existing look with one of the 'snap ons' that have been in development for a while, I would say the resourse use for it has been minimal.

On top of that, the 'snap ons' may well have never have happened without SC, and that is something that will end up as a part of the base game.

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Old 03-04-2009, 04:47 PM   #70
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Again, everyone has missed one of the points of my argument - not that SC/LoN are currently drawing resources from the game, the decision to create them instead of focussing more resources at EQ2 was flawed.

I would like to see the books on EQ2-based purchases from SC versus EQ1 and others. Please show them to me, Noa, when you get the chance.

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Old 03-04-2009, 05:18 PM   #71
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[email protected] wrote:

[email protected] wrote:

So, as i said, can you please make them possible to get via non cash methods, even if it is either ultra rare drop or a really really long quest.

While I realize that times are tough for many people. Many others aren't suffering as badly as others. Offering them via a non-payment would all but cease future purchases of those items. Which defeats the purpose of the sales all together. You're asking them to sell exclusively to the truly lazy audience. Which is probably a pretty small minority.

Besides.. how do they compensate the people who have already purchased said items now that they're available for free? I personally dropped around $200 on a few outfits and potions which I certainly would have quested for instead if it were an option. How do I get compensated for my purchases now that they are offered for free?

with your line of thinking Dell owes me $2000 dollars. Cause when I bought my machine it cost 4k now it's 2k... where's my 2k Dell??

silly.

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Old 03-04-2009, 05:22 PM   #72
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Vain wrote:

Again, everyone has missed one of the points of my argument - not that SC/LoN are currently drawing resources from the game, the decision to create them instead of focussing more resources at EQ2 was flawed.

I would like to see the books on EQ2-based purchases from SC versus EQ1 and others. Please show them to me, Noa, when you get the chance.

How about this public figure.  The SC Items sold for the "Child's Play" fundraiser resulted in a $20,000 donation to "Child's Play".  Aside from that demonstrating the goodness in the hearts of our fellow players, it also shows that people utilized SC. That's a few limited items that generated $20,000.

Now, for the practical verses the implausable.  LoN proved to be a winner for them. They declared that thus far SC has been a success.  Why would they in retrospect choose to pump more assets into the same return for the most part of revenue rather than add additional revenue? It does not take a Harvard Business Major to figure that one out.

So in your argument, you concede that their efforts did not come out of game resources, yet you wish to tell them where they can spend their investments and that they should defray on profits in the interest of making a few players a bit happier?  It's a business for them and businesses are out to find new ways to make profits of existing products.  Welcome to the forest Bambi.

Frankly, I'm glad to see both SC and LoN a success.  Since they are somewhat dependent on the core games, it gives them more reasons to improve those games in the future.

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Old 03-04-2009, 05:58 PM   #73
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Since there is some discussion here about whether we might see some of the SC items available free in-game, and if having an item with the same graphic as a SC item available would diminish the value of the SC item to the person who purchased it -- I thought I would post these screenies.

Here is an example of two items with nearly identical graphics.  The only difference is, one has a slightly darker shade of green, but that difference is hardly discernable.  However, if you examine the items, you see that one is the legendary Cowl of the Pathfinder, while the other is just a cloth hat called the Kelethin Outrider Hood.  It's kind of like a Gucci bag and a knock-off. 

My ranger has the Cowl of the Pathfinder waiting in his vault for the day when he can wear it, but in the meantime he would like to have the outrider hood.  He won't be getting it, because I'm not buying him that whole $10 set of armor just to get him the hood.  Still, I think both items have a place in the game, and neither diminishes the other.  (Of course, Cowl of the Pathfinder is hardly a common drop.  Maybe some of the other SC hats with interesting and different graphics will be made available as rare drops like this one. )

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Old 03-05-2009, 12:44 AM   #74
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Zarador wrote:

Vain wrote:

Again, everyone has missed one of the points of my argument - not that SC/LoN are currently drawing resources from the game, the decision to create them instead of focussing more resources at EQ2 was flawed.

I would like to see the books on EQ2-based purchases from SC versus EQ1 and others. Please show them to me, Noa, when you get the chance.

How about this public figure.  The SC Items sold for the "Child's Play" fundraiser resulted in a $20,000 donation to "Child's Play".  Aside from that demonstrating the goodness in the hearts of our fellow players, it also shows that people utilized SC. That's a few limited items that generated $20,000.

Now, for the practical verses the implausable.  LoN proved to be a winner for them. They declared that thus far SC has been a success.  Why would they in retrospect choose to pump more assets into the same return for the most part of revenue rather than add additional revenue? It does not take a Harvard Business Major to figure that one out.

So in your argument, you concede that their efforts did not come out of game resources, yet you wish to tell them where they can spend their investments and that they should defray on profits in the interest of making a few players a bit happier?  It's a business for them and businesses are out to find new ways to make profits of existing products.  Welcome to the forest Bambi.

Frankly, I'm glad to see both SC and LoN a success.  Since they are somewhat dependent on the core games, it gives them more reasons to improve those games in the future.

Thanks for the number, Zor. Albeit numbers that, in no way, shape or form correlate to those I mentioned in the post you quoted.

I agree. The numbers do, indeed, show that Station Cash is utilized and, based on the amount of loot linked in level chat for sale on Najena, I am well aware that LoN in also being utilized. It does, indeed, generate revenue and (although I am not a Harvard Business Major) I know that revenue is a good thing in any business (but, please, remember that revenue does not necessarily equate to profit. I realize that turning a profit is key to your third paragraph which simultaneously misses my point and erroneously equates revenue with profit, but it isn't exactly that simple).

I wonder, however, if you've ever come across examples where a businesses peripheral sales flourish, yet the core of the business flounders? There are many examples out there - like some professional sports teams - that demonstrate the value of maintaining a high level of quality for the core product above peripheral revenue.

Anyway, I think the condescension in a statement like "Welcome to the forest Bambi" is best reserved for when you can come up with a valid point or 2 not based on erroneous logic.

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Old 04-10-2009, 07:29 AM   #75
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[email protected] wrote:

I personally dropped around $200 on a few outfits and potions which I certainly would have quested for instead if it were an option. How do I get compensated for my purchases now that they are offered for free?

I always thought you were insane Spyder, now this only goes to prove it.

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Old 04-10-2009, 10:15 AM   #76
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It's true he is crazy.  Even crazier asking for a refund....

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