AOE Blockers

11-08-2015, 05:31 PM

Is it me or did they completely remove the usefulness of all AOE blockers in ToT heroic and raids?

Bloodguts · 11-08-2015, 06:22 PM

Yes. Since Tears of Veeshan there hasn't been any use of AoE blockers.

They added that item in Rum Cellar to give a stat buff to AoE blockers to make them somewhat useful, but it didn't really help anything cuz it required the use of a jewelry slot.

11-12-2015, 06:08 PM

Same with AoM...

Mermut · 11-12-2015, 06:24 PM

Ugh. Fights where priests need to be able to move (which only channelers can do without assistence from another class), making it so things like priest death saves and AoE blockers don't work... Healing can be frustrating enough in raids, making it so many of our tools our useless in most cases and setting up others so we can't do our job unless some other non-healer does something at the right time doesn't make it more fun... just more frustrating.

CoLD MeTaL · 11-12-2015, 06:53 PM

It's not like they ever 'reliably' worked.

11-12-2015, 06:57 PM

Player aoe blockers like turtle shell worked great a few expansions ago. And those guild signets worked great too during the days of Tox Mound and Perah Cellis.

Mogrim · 11-12-2015, 06:59 PM

If AOE blockers aren't going to work anymore, they could be converted into DR spells instead.

Mermut · 11-12-2015, 09:02 PM

They were very reliable when AoEs weren't set to directly target everybody, specifically to make AoE blockers useless.

Gninja · 11-12-2015, 10:13 PM

AoE blockers are useful in certain situations but its not a regular every fight type thing. The problem comes when raids are able to make themselves 100% ae immune through stacking of specific classes those sort of strategies mean absolutely nothing and can be ignored. We are trying to add specific stuff where blockers work such as one of the fights in the Penumbra raid where they are extremely useful but not required.

Mermut · 11-12-2015, 10:22 PM

So it sounds like we shouldn't waste the AA on them except FOR specific fight as they're pretty much useless most of the time at this point?

CoLD MeTaL · 11-13-2015, 01:37 PM

From someone who doesn't use a spreadsheet to play the game, the experience ends up like this though:

I see mob casting spell on bar.

Hit AoE blocker.

Die.

Assume AoE blockers don't work, and stop trying to use them.

If you aren't going to be consistent, why have abilities at all?

Karsa · 11-13-2015, 03:09 PM

Maybe there could be way for the characters could detect wether or not a mob's can be avoided or not; the recent ability that roGues / predators have to see mobs weakness/ resists/ mobs hp and reccomended hp needed. Maybe it could say which abilities can be aOe avoided.

Or maybe have red text for stuff that cannot be avoided and or orange text for stuff that can?

Tabri · 11-13-2015, 05:09 PM

Then you should change the description on this to say " When DBG deems for this to block AOE" OR it can state "Prevents some AOE(except when direct)" instead of it stating it blocks ALL AOE(which without some explanation it looks that way currently when you read the description of it.

[IMG]

Tabri · 11-13-2015, 05:12 PM

Maybe you should give druids a couple of wards then since your taking away the only thing we pretty much have to try to save anyone at all, straight heals isnt cutting it.

I always thought it ironic that a warden is called a warden and has only one ward anyway Confused

Gninja · 11-13-2015, 05:13 PM

The reason the unblocked "AE" are not blocked is because they are direct casts on each target. Not a true AE. It will still block AEs that are just cast on target and hits everyone around them. I do agree there should be some sort of distinction and we will discuss that.

Mogrim · 11-13-2015, 05:18 PM

Essentially, some spells cast as if they're "greens" that target "all members of the group/raid" and some spells are cast as if they're "target-based blues" that only target the current target of the mob. Right?

Mogrim · 11-13-2015, 05:20 PM

If so, how about allowing AOE Blocks to reduce a small portion of the AOE if the person IS the target, and block it altogether if they're not? Or would that be prohibitively difficult to program?

Lucus · 11-13-2015, 05:23 PM

hmm what about modifying the target cast bar, one color for AE effects and another color for non-AE effects? or making red text that tells you in a way whether the inc nuke is an AE or a group single target effect?

Tabri · 11-13-2015, 05:25 PM

Ok so your making the mob in question target every single person directly with the damage all at one time. I play a warden as my main I just know when we get smashed all at one time it looks like an AOE. If your doing this then yep T-shell is pretty much useless you have made it useless. So as Mogrim states give us SOMETHING here its getting to the point we are no longer viable in raids. So make it do something instead of absolutely nothing or give us something else like a couple of wards for backup to reduce some damage at least.

11-13-2015, 05:43 PM

I'd be satisfied if AE blockers were also a 5% DR (If non-fighter) (preferably 10% tho)

For AEs that are blockable, you won't be taking any damage to reduce anyway, so it'd only be useful vs. direct damage AEs

The DR would help Druids a little against the ward oriented raid mechanics.

Edit: I lied... if all AEs gained DRs, shaman would just do their job easier with bard/rogues... maybe let Druids have the only blockers with a DR component?

Tabri · 11-13-2015, 05:51 PM

My experience so far last expac and its probably going to be worse this expac. ( warden)

AOE hits and groups with a defiler/mystic are fine whereas some if not all of my people drop(note this is usually progression mobs).
Pulse damage I apparently rock at this though.
Group death prevent is up people go splat anyway.
If its elemental damage aoe or otherwise people will still fall maybe not all but some with my elemental ward up.
I love getting switched out of a group to be put with a defiler/mystic because group members die without one of those now(by the way that is sarcasm).
Noway can I keep a main tank up on a progression mob Im not viable for the MT group.

Even in easy zones if someone in group is below the resists threshold they are going to die in my group if Im solo healing that group. Yet if you put a defiler alone in the same group with those that are below the resist threshold they will live. If there is anyone below the resists we have to put them with a shaman.

The only reason my warden will even be in a raid is when we dont have enough "other healers". So really just asking you check some stuff out. I would just play a shaman but I am in no mood to level another healer after playing this one for 10 yrs.

Neiloch · 11-13-2015, 07:07 PM

From what gninja explained before the new AE's that aren't blockable literally just cast a spell on each individual. So imagine a single target attack casted 24 times rapidly if its a full raid. They dont work like a blue or green AE.

Mermut · 11-13-2015, 09:10 PM

Yup. They seem to give healers useful tools.. then make content specifically to make those tricks and tools useless..
So healers have more and more tools that are nearly useless. When the incoming damage gets higher and higher and classes (primarly non-warders) have more and more of their 'avoid/reduce/mitigate' damage tools being invalidated by scripting. Shaman become mandatory for fights (because they can blunt hits while other healers can only heal damage AFTER the hit) causing other healers are reduced to bench-warmers and 'ball boys' cleaning up what little gets through the wards.

Neiloch · 11-13-2015, 11:30 PM

I believe this new form of AE was instituted because the devs couldn't make typical AE's reliably hit 100% of the time if they wished. Such as the curse on Construct of Malice.

Mermut · 11-13-2015, 11:54 PM

This isn't 'new' for ToT or even AoM. It's just those two expansions where they went from 1%-5% AoE in previous expacs that target everybody directly (since AoE blockers only work when you're NOT the target), to 1%-5% NOT working that way. Gninja pretty much specified that this was intended specifically TO make it so AoE blockers don't work. Much as they added a detriment to hit priests in a few fights in ToV (and AoM) that specifially by-passed control effect immunities. It's frustrating to spec for immunities and control effect breakers and have code specifically written to circumvent those priest abilities.
Imagine how scouts would feel if rather then having to stand in front of mobs 1% of the time they only got to stand BEHIND the mobs 1% of the time... without having anything given to replace the 'rear/flanking only' attacks that are not useful most of the time now.

While such things might make an interesting mechanic/strat when used occasionally becomes a problem when it becomes the 'norm' and all those abilities that are regular circumvented by script become effectively useless 99% of the time w/o anything to replace it.

11-13-2015, 11:55 PM

I am fine with AE blockers not working, however, that means that all of the AE blocking abilities, just like many other things need to be reworked to make them useful again.

Mermut · 11-13-2015, 11:58 PM

Agreed, they should either work 'most of the time' or be replaced with something else that does.

11-14-2015, 12:01 AM

I have been playing brigand for many years. From when AR was powerful til now where it is useless. I don't have survival issues in raid even with the newer mechanics, so it's not a big deal. Just one of the many things in the game that has been outdated by current mechanics and needs an overhaul.

Mermut · 11-14-2015, 12:17 AM

For druids, the loss of T-Shell is a bigger deal, as we don't have wards and such to blunt the initial hits. Sure, we can heal our group up well after... provided they didn't die in said initial hit. It becomes more and more of an issue as incoming damage goes up. Especially when dps toons want as little defense as they can get away with so they can dps better.. it is ALWAYS the healers fault when somebody dies... even when it's not.

Daalilama · 11-14-2015, 02:49 AM

Not liking the new lazy "norm" of nearly all ae's bypassing ae blockers...I mean seriously....the blockers were some of the most useful abilities classes had especially if your group or raid is not the optimum setup or gear which is the norm not the exception which is opposite of what occurs during official beta raid evals.....Gninja I understand the reason to some extent why the dev team went that route (doesn't mean I accept it) but this seems more of a pseudo gatekeeper directive more than anything else on keeping raid content viable.

But I have to agree if you are making our aa abilities (those that still or did work as intended useless 90% of the time) I think some of the suggestions like applying a DR % to them in addition to their old mechanic would at least make them viable permanent options especially for non shaman healers....

11-12-2015, 06:08 PM	#3
Khovas New Member Posts: n/a	ZUES said: ↑ “Is it me or did they completely remove the usefulness of all AOE blockers in ToT heroic and raids?” Same with AoM...

11-12-2015, 06:57 PM	#6
ZUES Well-Known Member Posts: n/a	CoLD MeTaL said: ↑ “It's not like they ever 'reliably' worked.” Player aoe blockers like turtle shell worked great a few expansions ago. And those guild signets worked great too during the days of Tox Mound and Perah Cellis.

11-12-2015, 09:02 PM	#8
Mermut Well-Known Member Join Date: Jan 1970 Posts: 0	CoLD MeTaL said: ↑ “It's not like they ever 'reliably' worked.” They were very reliable when AoEs weren't set to directly target everybody, specifically to make AoE blockers useless.

11-12-2015, 10:22 PM	#10
Mermut Well-Known Member Join Date: Jan 1970 Posts: 0	Gninja said: ↑ “AoE blockers are useful in certain situations but its not a regular every fight type thing. The problem comes when raids are able to make themselves 100% ae immune through stacking of specific classes those sort of strategies mean absolutely nothing and can be ignored. We are trying to add specific stuff where blockers work such as one of the fights in the Penumbra raid where they are extremely useful but not required.” So it sounds like we shouldn't waste the AA on them except FOR specific fight as they're pretty much useless most of the time at this point?

11-13-2015, 01:37 PM	#11
CoLD MeTaL Well-Known Member Join Date: Jan 1970 Posts: 1	Gninja said: ↑ “AoE blockers are useful in certain situations but its not a regular every fight type thing. The problem comes when raids are able to make themselves 100% ae immune through stacking of specific classes those sort of strategies mean absolutely nothing and can be ignored. We are trying to add specific stuff where blockers work such as one of the fights in the Penumbra raid where they are extremely useful but not required.” From someone who doesn't use a spreadsheet to play the game, the experience ends up like this though: I see mob casting spell on bar. Hit AoE blocker. Die. Assume AoE blockers don't work, and stop trying to use them. If you aren't going to be consistent, why have abilities at all?

11-08-2015, 05:31 PM	#1
ZUES Well-Known Member Posts: n/a	Is it me or did they completely remove the usefulness of all AOE blockers in ToT heroic and raids?

11-08-2015, 06:22 PM	#2
Bloodguts Active Member Join Date: Jan 1970 Posts: 2	Yes. Since Tears of Veeshan there hasn't been any use of AoE blockers. They added that item in Rum Cellar to give a stat buff to AoE blockers to make them somewhat useful, but it didn't really help anything cuz it required the use of a jewelry slot.

11-12-2015, 06:24 PM	#4
Mermut Well-Known Member Join Date: Jan 1970 Posts: 0	Ugh. Fights where priests need to be able to move (which only channelers can do without assistence from another class), making it so things like priest death saves and AoE blockers don't work... Healing can be frustrating enough in raids, making it so many of our tools our useless in most cases and setting up others so we can't do our job unless some other non-healer does something at the right time doesn't make it more fun... just more frustrating.

11-12-2015, 06:53 PM	#5
CoLD MeTaL Well-Known Member Join Date: Jan 1970 Posts: 1	It's not like they ever 'reliably' worked.

11-12-2015, 06:59 PM	#7
Mogrim Active Member Join Date: Jan 1970 Posts: 1	If AOE blockers aren't going to work anymore, they could be converted into DR spells instead.

11-12-2015, 10:13 PM	#9
Gninja Developer Join Date: Jan 1970 Posts: 0	AoE blockers are useful in certain situations but its not a regular every fight type thing. The problem comes when raids are able to make themselves 100% ae immune through stacking of specific classes those sort of strategies mean absolutely nothing and can be ignored. We are trying to add specific stuff where blockers work such as one of the fights in the Penumbra raid where they are extremely useful but not required.

11-13-2015, 03:09 PM	#12
Karsa Member Join Date: Jan 1970 Posts: 0	Maybe there could be way for the characters could detect wether or not a mob's can be avoided or not; the recent ability that roGues / predators have to see mobs weakness/ resists/ mobs hp and reccomended hp needed. Maybe it could say which abilities can be aOe avoided. Or maybe have red text for stuff that cannot be avoided and or orange text for stuff that can?

11-13-2015, 05:09 PM	#13
Tabri Active Member Join Date: Jan 1970 Posts: 0	Gninja said: ↑ “AoE blockers are useful in certain situations but its not a regular every fight type thing. The problem comes when raids are able to make themselves 100% ae immune through stacking of specific classes those sort of strategies mean absolutely nothing and can be ignored. We are trying to add specific stuff where blockers work such as one of the fights in the Penumbra raid where they are extremely useful but not required.” Then you should change the description on this to say " When DBG deems for this to block AOE" OR it can state "Prevents some AOE(except when direct)" instead of it stating it blocks ALL AOE(which without some explanation it looks that way currently when you read the description of it.

11-13-2015, 05:12 PM	#14
Tabri Active Member Join Date: Jan 1970 Posts: 0	Maybe you should give druids a couple of wards then since your taking away the only thing we pretty much have to try to save anyone at all, straight heals isnt cutting it. I always thought it ironic that a warden is called a warden and has only one ward anyway

11-13-2015, 05:13 PM	#15
Gninja Developer Join Date: Jan 1970 Posts: 0	The reason the unblocked "AE" are not blocked is because they are direct casts on each target. Not a true AE. It will still block AEs that are just cast on target and hits everyone around them. I do agree there should be some sort of distinction and we will discuss that.

11-13-2015, 05:18 PM	#16
Mogrim Active Member Join Date: Jan 1970 Posts: 1	Gninja said: ↑ “The reason the unblocked "AE" are not blocked is because they are direct casts on each target. Not a true AE. It will still block AEs that are just cast on target and hits everyone around them. I do agree there should be some sort of distinction and we will discuss that.” Essentially, some spells cast as if they're "greens" that target "all members of the group/raid" and some spells are cast as if they're "target-based blues" that only target the current target of the mob. Right?

11-13-2015, 05:20 PM	#17
Mogrim Active Member Join Date: Jan 1970 Posts: 1	If so, how about allowing AOE Blocks to reduce a small portion of the AOE if the person IS the target, and block it altogether if they're not? Or would that be prohibitively difficult to program?

11-13-2015, 05:23 PM	#18
Lucus Active Member Join Date: Jan 1970 Posts: 3	Gninja said: ↑ “The reason the unblocked "AE" are not blocked is because they are direct casts on each target. Not a true AE. It will still block AEs that are just cast on target and hits everyone around them. I do agree there should be some sort of distinction and we will discuss that.” hmm what about modifying the target cast bar, one color for AE effects and another color for non-AE effects? or making red text that tells you in a way whether the inc nuke is an AE or a group single target effect?

11-13-2015, 05:25 PM	#19
Tabri Active Member Join Date: Jan 1970 Posts: 0	Ok so your making the mob in question target every single person directly with the damage all at one time. I play a warden as my main I just know when we get smashed all at one time it looks like an AOE. If your doing this then yep T-shell is pretty much useless you have made it useless. So as Mogrim states give us SOMETHING here its getting to the point we are no longer viable in raids. So make it do something instead of absolutely nothing or give us something else like a couple of wards for backup to reduce some damage at least.

11-13-2015, 05:43 PM	#20
Arco Member Posts: n/a	I'd be satisfied if AE blockers were also a 5% DR (If non-fighter) (preferably 10% tho) For AEs that are blockable, you won't be taking any damage to reduce anyway, so it'd only be useful vs. direct damage AEs The DR would help Druids a little against the ward oriented raid mechanics. Edit: I lied... if all AEs gained DRs, shaman would just do their job easier with bard/rogues... maybe let Druids have the only blockers with a DR component?

11-13-2015, 05:51 PM	#21
Tabri Active Member Join Date: Jan 1970 Posts: 0	My experience so far last expac and its probably going to be worse this expac. ( warden) AOE hits and groups with a defiler/mystic are fine whereas some if not all of my people drop(note this is usually progression mobs). Pulse damage I apparently rock at this though. Group death prevent is up people go splat anyway. If its elemental damage aoe or otherwise people will still fall maybe not all but some with my elemental ward up. I love getting switched out of a group to be put with a defiler/mystic because group members die without one of those now(by the way that is sarcasm). Noway can I keep a main tank up on a progression mob Im not viable for the MT group. Even in easy zones if someone in group is below the resists threshold they are going to die in my group if Im solo healing that group. Yet if you put a defiler alone in the same group with those that are below the resist threshold they will live. If there is anyone below the resists we have to put them with a shaman. The only reason my warden will even be in a raid is when we dont have enough "other healers". So really just asking you check some stuff out. I would just play a shaman but I am in no mood to level another healer after playing this one for 10 yrs.

11-13-2015, 07:07 PM	#22
Neiloch Well-Known Member Join Date: Jan 1970 Posts: 0	From what gninja explained before the new AE's that aren't blockable literally just cast a spell on each individual. So imagine a single target attack casted 24 times rapidly if its a full raid. They dont work like a blue or green AE.

11-13-2015, 09:10 PM	#23
Mermut Well-Known Member Join Date: Jan 1970 Posts: 0	quisling said: ↑ “Right. Its a mechanic that is essentially an AOE without the limitations of an AOE. Much the same way "no beneficial spells" is a control effect without the limitation of a control effect. Basically it is a designed with the sole intent to circumvent previously given abilities.” Yup. They seem to give healers useful tools.. then make content specifically to make those tricks and tools useless.. So healers have more and more tools that are nearly useless. When the incoming damage gets higher and higher and classes (primarly non-warders) have more and more of their 'avoid/reduce/mitigate' damage tools being invalidated by scripting. Shaman become mandatory for fights (because they can blunt hits while other healers can only heal damage AFTER the hit) causing other healers are reduced to bench-warmers and 'ball boys' cleaning up what little gets through the wards.

11-13-2015, 11:30 PM	#24
Neiloch Well-Known Member Join Date: Jan 1970 Posts: 0	I believe this new form of AE was instituted because the devs couldn't make typical AE's reliably hit 100% of the time if they wished. Such as the curse on Construct of Malice.

11-13-2015, 11:54 PM	#25
Mermut Well-Known Member Join Date: Jan 1970 Posts: 0	Neiloch said: ↑ “I believe this new form of AE was instituted because the devs couldn't make typical AE's reliably hit 100% of the time if they wished. Such as the curse on Construct of Malice.” This isn't 'new' for ToT or even AoM. It's just those two expansions where they went from 1%-5% AoE in previous expacs that target everybody directly (since AoE blockers only work when you're NOT the target), to 1%-5% NOT working that way. Gninja pretty much specified that this was intended specifically TO make it so AoE blockers don't work. Much as they added a detriment to hit priests in a few fights in ToV (and AoM) that specifially by-passed control effect immunities. It's frustrating to spec for immunities and control effect breakers and have code specifically written to circumvent those priest abilities. Imagine how scouts would feel if rather then having to stand in front of mobs 1% of the time they only got to stand BEHIND the mobs 1% of the time... without having anything given to replace the 'rear/flanking only' attacks that are not useful most of the time now. While such things might make an interesting mechanic/strat when used occasionally becomes a problem when it becomes the 'norm' and all those abilities that are regular circumvented by script become effectively useless 99% of the time w/o anything to replace it.

11-13-2015, 11:55 PM	#26
Therein Member Posts: n/a	I am fine with AE blockers not working, however, that means that all of the AE blocking abilities, just like many other things need to be reworked to make them useful again.

11-13-2015, 11:58 PM	#27
Mermut Well-Known Member Join Date: Jan 1970 Posts: 0	Therein said: ↑ “I am fine with AE blockers not working, however, that means that all of the AE blocking abilities, just like many other things need to be reworked to make them useful again.” Agreed, they should either work 'most of the time' or be replaced with something else that does.

11-14-2015, 12:01 AM	#28
Therein Member Posts: n/a	I have been playing brigand for many years. From when AR was powerful til now where it is useless. I don't have survival issues in raid even with the newer mechanics, so it's not a big deal. Just one of the many things in the game that has been outdated by current mechanics and needs an overhaul.

11-14-2015, 12:17 AM	#29
Mermut Well-Known Member Join Date: Jan 1970 Posts: 0	Therein said: ↑ “I have been playing brigand for many years. From when AR was powerful til now where it is useless. I don't have survival issues in raid even with the newer mechanics, so it's not a big deal. Just one of the many things in the game that has been outdated by current mechanics and needs an overhaul.” For druids, the loss of T-Shell is a bigger deal, as we don't have wards and such to blunt the initial hits. Sure, we can heal our group up well after... provided they didn't die in said initial hit. It becomes more and more of an issue as incoming damage goes up. Especially when dps toons want as little defense as they can get away with so they can dps better.. it is ALWAYS the healers fault when somebody dies... even when it's not.

11-14-2015, 02:49 AM	#30
Daalilama Well-Known Member Join Date: Jan 1970 Posts: 0	Not liking the new lazy "norm" of nearly all ae's bypassing ae blockers...I mean seriously....the blockers were some of the most useful abilities classes had especially if your group or raid is not the optimum setup or gear which is the norm not the exception which is opposite of what occurs during official beta raid evals.....Gninja I understand the reason to some extent why the dev team went that route (doesn't mean I accept it) but this seems more of a pseudo gatekeeper directive more than anything else on keeping raid content viable. But I have to agree if you are making our aa abilities (those that still or did work as intended useless 90% of the time) I think some of the suggestions like applying a DR % to them in addition to their old mechanic would at least make them viable permanent options especially for non shaman healers....