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Old 10-24-2012, 10:23 PM   #61
Ulrichvon

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Kasar wrote:

From all the PL talk, it sounds like the best solution would be to sell the 90/280 token that SJ asked for feedback on some time ago. 

Then you wouldn't need to keep zones cleared, just buy the token and run SS a few hundred times.

I actually think that is their end-game, to stir up enough chatter about XP and complaints that they'll just be doing us a great service selling that item SMILEY

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Old 10-24-2012, 11:55 PM   #62
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It seems the main people complaining about this are the PLers, and I don't know why. If you PL one alt that's on autofollow, the xp will be exactly the same as it is now, except you may loose a little encounter xp if you don't get on the hate list. I don't know how much the encounter xp is but the dev has stated it's not effected by vitality, server bonus, etc so it can't be much. You probably won't even notice it because you're killing 20+ mobs at a tiime. You also won't get encounter xp for green mobs, but anyone slightly smart should be PLing with yellow to orange mobs anyway. You also won't get encounter xp if you're mentored down, which for PL toons isn't a big deal anyway as you're not there for xp for that toon. Self mentored L90s looking for AA may loose a bit, but maybe it will encourage L90s to group in DoV1 dungeons instead. And anyway, like I said, the encounter xp will be minimal if it's not effected by any xp bonuses. All in all, it's encouraging people to group at level appropriate content. Maybe now doing solo RoK dungeons self mentored is not the quickest way to level from 90 onwards. I PL my alts, and I'm not worried I'll get less xp with this change. It'll be more or less the same but maybe more if I don't just autofollow. And when I'm leveling from 92 to 95, I'll try to do it in a group rather than heading to RoK, and hopefully they'll be others wanting to do the same.
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Old 10-25-2012, 12:00 AM   #63
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Regolas wrote:

It seems the main people complaining about this are the PLers, and I don't know why. If you PL one alt that's on autofollow, the xp will be exactly the same as it is now, except you may loose a little encounter xp if you don't get on the hate list. I don't know how much the encounter xp is but the dev has stated it's not effected by vitality, server bonus, etc so it can't be much. You probably won't even notice it because you're killing 20+ mobs at a tiime. You also won't get encounter xp for green mobs, but anyone slightly smart should be PLing with yellow to orange mobs anyway. You also won't get encounter xp if you're mentored down, which for PL toons isn't a big deal anyway as you're not there for xp for that toon. Self mentored L90s looking for AA may loose a bit, but maybe it will encourage L90s to group in DoV1 dungeons instead. And anyway, like I said, the encounter xp will be minimal if it's not effected by any xp bonuses. All in all, it's encouraging people to group at level appropriate content. Maybe now doing solo RoK dungeons self mentored is not the quickest way to level from 90 onwards. I PL my alts, and I'm not worried I'll get less xp with this change. It'll be more or less the same but maybe more if I don't just autofollow. And when I'm leveling from 92 to 95, I'll try to do it in a group rather than heading to RoK, and hopefully they'll be others wanting to do the same.

Encounter bonus xp is not a "little" exp - its a lot.  Far more than the kill, generally.  In Chelsith at around level 80, its not unusual for my alt to get around 2-3x the exp in an encounter bonus than he got from the actual kill, so this is pretty significant.  To see it in action, just watch the exp window.  It is significant.

My issue with the change is only that its an unnecessary penalizing of one group of players to satisfy another.  Nuke the penalty, craft the bonus to encourage the desired behavior, and move on.  Easy, everyone wins.

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Old 10-25-2012, 12:38 AM   #64
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Terrogaunt wrote:

Our multiplication goes down based on how many members are in a group. This is how it currently works and will continue to work. 

Can anyone explain to me how this encourages players to get together in groups?

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Old 10-25-2012, 01:14 AM   #65
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Regolas wrote:

It seems the main people complaining about this are the PLers, and I don't know why. If you PL one alt that's on autofollow, the xp will be exactly the same as it is now, except you may loose a little encounter xp if you don't get on the hate list. I don't know how much the encounter xp is but the dev has stated it's not effected by vitality, server bonus, etc so it can't be much. You probably won't even notice it because you're killing 20+ mobs at a tiime. You also won't get encounter xp for green mobs, but anyone slightly smart should be PLing with yellow to orange mobs anyway.

Except that it's not just the encounter bonus that you miss out on if you're not on the hate list. XP amounts per kill are lower, too. And that is effected by potions and server bonuses.

The example given by Terrogaunt was a duo fighting a 4-mob encounter. If you're on the hate list you get the same amount of xp per mob whether you're solo/duo/full group. He gave an example of ~500xp per mob. You're also earn the encounter bonus of ~800. That's 2800 xp for the encounter assuming no vitality, potions, etc.

If one of the group members misses the hate list, they earn the current xp value per mob (still discounted by the group penalty that everyone seemed to hate so much when it was effecting them), which in his example was ~260xp. This number is likely smaller if you're in a full group...not sure how that's calculated. Total xp for the encounter if you don't make the list is 1040. That's just shy of a 62% penalty. Gets worse in a bigger group and possibly even worse depending on whether other bonuses are applied to the 260 value or the 500 value (probably the 260).

Maybe it feels better to say that the toon missing the hate list isn't being penalized, just doesn't get the bonus cuz he wasn't playing the right way. But, if the change goes in as stated, the typical and expected xp earning for that example is going to be 2800, not 1040. Anybody missing out on the bonus is going to feel slighted. And not by an insignificant amount. Call it whatever you want but it's effectively a penalty.

Powerlevelers and multiboxers may or may not be the targets for this mechanic, but it's easy enough for them to work around it to be an ineffective deterrant. I do both, and this will have very little impact on me. What about the people that get caught in the cross fire?

Should I get penalized if I get lag on the pull and don't get my nuke off? What if there's a named mob that requires a special tactic like ranged only or melee only? Should an xp mechanic really influence tactics for pulling/killing encounters? If a friend asks for a quick bio, should we all have to wait around so he gets his fair share of xp? If a group member misses a pull while chugging a beer and the rest of his group doesn't care, why should any of you care? He's playing, he's grouping, he's paying for his time.

You say the only people that don't like the hate-list mechanic are only the power levelers. I say the only people who like it are the ones on a witchhunt to root out the evil powerlevelers. I also say that this mechanic will have more of an effect on my mid-level guild group that it will on my PLing or multiboxing.

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Old 10-25-2012, 05:09 AM   #66
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Domyr Farseeker wrote:

...

Maybe it feels better to say that the toon missing the hate list isn't being penalized, just doesn't get the bonus cuz he wasn't playing the right way. But, if the change goes in as stated, the typical and expected xp earning for that example is going to be 2800, not 1040. Anybody missing out on the bonus is going to feel slighted. And not by an insignificant amount. Call it whatever you want but it's effectively a penalty.

...

Should I get penalized if I get lag on the pull and don't get my nuke off? What if there's a named mob that requires a special tactic like ranged only or melee only? Should an xp mechanic really influence tactics for pulling/killing encounters? If a friend asks for a quick bio, should we all have to wait around so he gets his fair share of xp? If a group member misses a pull while chugging a beer and the rest of his group doesn't care, why should any of you care? He's playing, he's grouping, he's paying for his time.

...

Have people who haven't constantly been at 200% Vet Bonus been penalized for the last expansion? Sometimes people that do more get more. It happens.

...

Do you lag so much that this is an issue?

Do you run into so many special tactic mobs while working on levelling that this is an issue?

If your friend needs to take a minute or 5, does it matter that they lose out on the bonus for those few minutes all that much? How many bios do you take?

If a group member misses 'a' pull for chugging a drink, is this an issue? How much of a mass pull grind can you miss taking a drink?

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Old 10-25-2012, 08:07 AM   #67
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I still dont get it, why the change where made the way it was made.... anybody can light this up for me?

You can still pl, they it is, it only takes longer.... i would be happy if a grp of 6 would give a bonus SMILEY Which would make grp playing more interesst, for leveling.

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Old 10-25-2012, 09:31 AM   #68
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Awesome solution on paper, terible if you actually play the game.

Terrogaunt, why don't you play the game for a few months and encourage your fellow co-workers to do the same ?

It's obvious none of you is playing this game.

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Old 10-25-2012, 10:02 AM   #69
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ZachSpastic wrote:

Terrogaunt wrote:

Our multiplication goes down based on how many members are in a group. This is how it currently works and will continue to work. 

Can anyone explain to me how this encourages players to get together in groups?

It doesn't.  But in current tier content it does basically remove the XP penalty, unless you are not an aoe tank in which case you just found the short end of the stick.

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Old 10-25-2012, 02:00 PM   #70
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I guess I am one of the very small minority that was never bothered by how much exp I got, as I have been with a great guild for the past 2 years.

If you really want to change the game so people group more at lower levels, you need to revamp those zones ... make the rewards worthwhile, make MC armor/weapons worthwhile.  I think that might be a reason people are blasting past those areas, because they are horrid.

Technically, grouping was to start around level 15 or so with Blackburrow and Wailing Caves.  So what happened?  Throw in mercs and it's a solo/molo ride until your 70s?

Something definately wrong there.

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Old 10-25-2012, 02:43 PM   #71
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The main point here is why fix something that is not broken? After all these time and years of same general gameplay why now? I believe that gaining a group bonus for actively playing is great, but it should not matter if you’re on the hate list or actively doing anything. I get that changes have to happen from time-to-time, but this is not something that should be taken lightly. I tested this out on beta with the characters I am currently leveling, and I was gaining almost 75% less experience per kill without being on the “hate meter”. How is that fair for a character I am leveling up? How will this bring more new lower level people into the game?

I believe that SOE is trying to make great ideas for EQnext, but let’s be honest using EQ2 as the test dummy is smart. The idea of changing experience solely on the hate meter? I am pretty sure there could be better time used elsewhere for better ideas. This idea already has happened in RIFT, and they lost tons of player base because of it.

I happen to love leveling my alts as I have returned shortly ago, but these types of penalties for me wanting to level my alts the way I have chosen makes me reconsider my choices.

Bonuses for groups yes, penalties for those who are not on the hate meter Terrrrrrrrrible Idea!

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Old 10-25-2012, 02:54 PM   #72
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[email protected] Bayle wrote:

The main point here is why fix something that is not broken? After all these time and years of same general gameplay why now? I believe that gaining a group bonus for actively playing is great, but it should not matter if you’re on the hate list or actively doing anything. I get that changes have to happen from time-to-time, but this is not something that should be taken lightly. I tested this out on beta with the characters I am currently leveling, and I was gaining almost 75% less experience per kill without being on the “hate meter”. How is that fair for a character I am leveling up? How will this bring more new lower level people into the game?

In this example, the incentive to not invite people while your helping level a toon becomes even greater.  Sure the group xp penalty needed to go, but additional fooling around with hate list stuffs isn't needed.

If they want to call getting xp while inactive an exploit, then they should remove xp while inactive.  The change they've proposed re-inforces poor playstyle choices. 

For example:

I better hit those mobs as soon as possible on the pull, or I might not get a hit in before it dies.

I'd still like to know exactly what problem they're trying to correct with these convoluded changes, but they rarely share such reasoning with us idiot players.

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Old 10-25-2012, 03:12 PM   #73
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Ulrichvon wrote:

[email protected] Bayle wrote:

The main point here is why fix something that is not broken? After all these time and years of same general gameplay why now? I believe that gaining a group bonus for actively playing is great, but it should not matter if you’re on the hate list or actively doing anything. I get that changes have to happen from time-to-time, but this is not something that should be taken lightly. I tested this out on beta with the characters I am currently leveling, and I was gaining almost 75% less experience per kill without being on the “hate meter”. How is that fair for a character I am leveling up? How will this bring more new lower level people into the game?

In this example, the incentive to not invite people while your helping level a toon becomes even greater.  Sure the group xp penalty needed to go, but additional fooling around with hate list stuffs isn't needed.

If they want to call getting xp while inactive an exploit, then they should remove xp while inactive.  The change they've proposed re-inforces poor playstyle choices. 

For example:

I better hit those mobs as soon as possible on the pull, or I might not get a hit in before it dies.

I'd still like to know exactly what problem they're trying to correct with these convoluded changes, but they rarely share such reasoning with us idiot players.

I agree, I am not sure what the main purpose for this "change" is. There should be no need for change at the base, but if they want to add something for those who group with let's say 6 active players by all means do so. But, if you want to give people less exp based on a hate meter? I mean common, there are better ways to be spending time at SOE to come up with more creative ideas.

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Old 10-25-2012, 03:39 PM   #74
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+1

I hate these changes and wish they would reconsider. Leave stuff alone that is already familiar and working for us! Want to penalize AFK levelers? Fine! Do so by adding a movement penalty. If the player stays stationary the entire fight they get ZERO experience!

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Old 10-25-2012, 04:25 PM   #75
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Maybe I'm totally fraking lost, how much exp would I get for a full group of people all participating in combat compared to how it is now?

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Old 10-25-2012, 04:29 PM   #76
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So it seems to be all about the hate list now.  Forget about targeting through the tank and playing your class correctly.  Let the AEs fly.  Spam a low level heal.  And if you're a single target class, get your red bull and start tab'n through the mobs.

SOE doesn't want to develop good group skills.  They just want *participation* which translates to button mashing.  ...all to get at that small minority of PL & AFK grinders who will be able to get around this.  Well done.  /golf clap

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Old 10-25-2012, 04:34 PM   #77
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Just curious why when WL came out vet bonus stayed on for lvl 90. Now it will go to Zero for everyone til they hit 95?

Thats quite a penalty especially for player with high number toons at 92 for both adventure and tradeskill.                   Guess players will have to make up their minds if they want to work on a single toon to at least get a bit of vet bonus for the others or play all their toons and get a whole bunch of vet bonus sometime in 2013 or maybe 2014.

It would make more sense it it set vet at zero at 92 and then award incremental vet bonus for lvls 93,94 and finally to normal amount whenever a toon does reach 95.

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Old 10-25-2012, 04:40 PM   #78
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[email protected] wrote:

Maybe I'm totally fraking lost, how much exp would I get for a full group of people all participating in combat compared to how it is now?

more xp, at the cost of losing xp if you box at all.  not an ideal trade off imho

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Old 10-25-2012, 04:41 PM   #79
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Grumble69 wrote:

So it seems to be all about the hate list now.  Forget about targeting through the tank and playing your class correctly.  Let the AEs fly.  Spam a low level heal.  And if you're a single target class, get your red bull and start tab'n through the mobs.

SOE doesn't want to develop good group skills.  They just want *participation* which translates to button mashing.  ...all to get at that small minority of PL & AFK grinders who will be able to get around this.  Well done.  /golf clap

LOL.You apparently don't know how hate works.I doubt this is for afk grinding and PLing in a negative way. It's more to encourage people to play with full groups(even groups of half mercs) in order to boost EXP.As is, when I solo Kael Drakkel I gain more EXP then when I play with a group, per mob. I get more exp per mob but I kill mobs faster with a group. This takes that into consderation finally and gives me the same amount of exp for soloing it if I didn't participate(THATS AN INCREASE OVER THE PAST!) and then I get a multiplied bonus for each participating player in group. I'd call it bigger better reason for grouping.

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Old 10-25-2012, 04:54 PM   #80
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[email protected] wrote:

Maybe I'm totally fraking lost, how much exp would I get for a full group of people all participating in combat compared to how it is now?

Depends on if you get on the hate list.  What class are you?  Did your reactive go off?  Did you cast a high dmg spell that was resisted/missed/or had a long cast time and never put you on the hate list?  Did the tank aoe autoattack one shot some of the mobs?

So depending on the situation/class/etc you will get more than used to get grouped OR  far less.

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Old 10-25-2012, 05:15 PM   #81
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In the group makeup I had was zerker/mystic/dirge/brig at the time. The zerker was gaining the bonus plus normal experience as stated. However, the mystic even with wards, dirge songs, or auto attack on the brig the got much less experience as the zerker. The overall difference was 75% of the experience gained between the classes. Doesn’t really seem all that fair too me to be honest as they stated “it wouldn’t change the overall experience gained”.

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Old 10-25-2012, 06:07 PM   #82
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[email protected] wrote:

LOL.You apparently don't know how hate works.

I understand it just fine.  There are a lot of way to NOT end up on the hate list, particularly when multiple mobs are involved.  And Sormr's post that illustrates what I'm talking about.  Folks are going to have to change their playstyle to get on the hate list for 100% of all kills or take a cut in their xp.

[email protected] Bayle wrote:

In the group makeup I had was zerker/mystic/dirge/brig at the time. The zerker was gaining the bonus plus normal experience as stated. However, the mystic even with wards, dirge songs, or auto attack on the brig the got much less experience as the zerker. The overall difference was 75% of the experience gained between the classes. Doesn’t really seem all that fair too me to be honest as they stated “it wouldn’t change the overall experience gained”.

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Old 10-25-2012, 06:09 PM   #83
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I'll have to check this out myself re:encounter experience. My most recent times when I looked at experience amounts was on a double xp weekend mentored from 90 to 80 in chelsith. I was getting about 1200xp per kill and never even noticed any encounter xp. I'm sure it was there but I didn't notice it and tbh I've rarely noticed encounter xp in all my playing time. That's not to say it's not significant, just that I don't watch the numbers all grind.
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Old 10-25-2012, 06:43 PM   #84
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Grumble69 wrote:

[email protected] wrote:

LOL.You apparently don't know how hate works.

I understand it just fine.  There are a lot of way to NOT end up on the hate list, particularly when multiple mobs are involved.  And Sormr's post that illustrates what I'm talking about.  Folks are going to have to change their playstyle to get on the hate list for 100% of all kills or take a cut in their xp.

[email protected] Bayle wrote:

In the group makeup I had was zerker/mystic/dirge/brig at the time. The zerker was gaining the bonus plus normal experience as stated. However, the mystic even with wards, dirge songs, or auto attack on the brig the got much less experience as the zerker. The overall difference was 75% of the experience gained between the classes. Doesn’t really seem all that fair too me to be honest as they stated “it wouldn’t change the overall experience gained”.

I can say that I was very upset in the 75% loss overall, which makes no sense if I had a ward going or even CoB ect ect that's all hate, but it didn't count. So, I dislike this "change" even more than I already did.

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Old 10-26-2012, 10:15 AM   #85
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[email protected] Bayle wrote:

I can say that I was very upset in the 75% loss overall, which makes no sense if I had a ward going or even CoB ect ect that's all hate, but it didn't count. So, I dislike this "change" even more than I already did.

PQs were the same.  Healers often were denied the chest at the end due to their wonky way of using the hate list or whatever.

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Old 10-26-2012, 11:52 AM   #86
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The hate list change with this is not a good thing, what so ever.As examples have already shown, even if every player in the group IS actively playing, they can be massive differences in XP gained just due to the nature of class mechanics.  Pull several encounters... no way a single target DPS class will be able to get on the hate list of all of them, whereas an AE DPS class/tank can without a problem and will gain massively more XP. 

It needs to be just flat out even for every member of the group, period.

If the real reason behind this change is to try and negatively impact AFK pet/merc grinding, it is entirely the wrong approach.

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Old 10-26-2012, 11:56 AM   #87
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[email protected] Bayle wrote:

In the group makeup I had was zerker/mystic/dirge/brig at the time. The zerker was gaining the bonus plus normal experience as stated. However, the mystic even with wards, dirge songs, or auto attack on the brig the got much less experience as the zerker. The overall difference was 75% of the experience gained between the classes. Doesn’t really seem all that fair too me to be honest as they stated “it wouldn’t change the overall experience gained”.

This is exactly why this change will discourage grouping for new players rather than encouraging them.

Lets say we have a group of folks playing together to level up, mostly through quests and overland mobs, or even  via group instances; they will soon have an imbalance that will cause issues keeping at the same level. As the AOE tank moves ahead, the othere will fall behind. Now if the tank tries to mentor down to help keep the group on level, they will lose the encounter XP. So penalty after penalty for new folks trying to level up together. This is a lose-lose proposition.

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Old 10-26-2012, 12:40 PM   #88
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[email protected] wrote:

Maybe I'm totally fraking lost, how much exp would I get for a full group of people all participating in combat compared to how it is now?

almost 3x as much with the changes than now.

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Old 10-26-2012, 12:43 PM   #89
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Fifinella wrote:

[email protected] Bayle wrote:

In the group makeup I had was zerker/mystic/dirge/brig at the time. The zerker was gaining the bonus plus normal experience as stated. However, the mystic even with wards, dirge songs, or auto attack on the brig the got much less experience as the zerker. The overall difference was 75% of the experience gained between the classes. Doesn’t really seem all that fair too me to be honest as they stated “it wouldn’t change the overall experience gained”.

This is exactly why this change will discourage grouping for new players rather than encouraging them.

My biggest problem with this is how hard it is to explain to all these new players we're talking about.

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Old 10-26-2012, 01:58 PM   #90
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Putting the hate list aside for a moment.  I'm totally confused by Terrogaunt's explanation on non-linked xp:

"Our multiplication goes down based on how many members are in a group. This is how it currently works and will continue to work. 

When you're able to get yourself onto the hatelist (there are a plethora of ways to achieve this), you will earn yourself the amount of exp that you would have recieved in a group of Yourself + however many mercs are in the group.

This means: Group of 6 ( 4 players, 2 mercs ). The exp for participation will be that of a 3-person group instead of a 6."

1. That first line makes it sound to me like the xp is still going to be scaled down based on the number of people in your group (which doesn't mesh with my idea of the group penalty being removed).

2.  I'm not getting why the mercs are entering the equation.  In the example of the group of 6, I intuitively would have thought the xp would be based on the 4 actual, living participants.  And I can't tell from the description whether you would be better off with a group of 6 actual players or 3 players with 3 mercs.

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