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Old 07-11-2012, 10:33 PM   #61
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Hennyo wrote:

[email protected]_old wrote:

alaplayer wrote:

Well on the flip side of the coin in what way is it fair that you can get best in slot stat pieces win or lose, when PVE has to kill mob x to get that piece to progress to the next mob.

I don't care if they fix PVP or not, if they do great for you but it can be fixed without impacting the PVE side of the game.

Not sure if you are trying to argue against me or with me?

I'm saying that something needs to be done to fix this before it hits live. Otherwise PvE may find a lot of its playerbase siphoned off to Battlegrounds. While the PvP'ers would love this, it could be really bad for PuGs and PvE raiding guilds.

I'm wondering if it wouldn't just be a better idea to introduce a PvE token system that leads to being able to buy raid level gear just like the PvP'ers will have.

While I am not agree that BG's will kill PvE raiding, if anything I think it will make more people join raids, if only because they are having more fun with the game again. I do think the idea of a PvE token system for raid gear wouldn't be an entirely bad idea, as long as it in no way shape or form, replaces current drops from raid mobs. The real situation right now is that certain pieces of gear are just frustrating to obtain because the RNG is just really bad. Maybe they could make it for every 50 to 100 current tier raid mobs you kill, you could buy one piece of loot from a merchant with tokens. This would need to have the token merchant divided up between EM and HM kills to be fair, and only let things from mobs you can kill be available for purchase. Something like this could help players fill in some of the frustrating holes in their gear progression.

@[email protected]_old wrote:  While the PvP'ers would love this, it could be really bad for PuGs and PvE raiding guilds.

We would absolutely NOT love this.  We like open world pvp not BGs.  Generally we hate BGs and wish they were never added to the game.  Some Naggy players like them but many of us would be far happier if they were NEVER introduced to EQ2 for the simple fact that they have contributed to destroying our way of life.  Many casual/medium HC raiders have just gone back to blue servers and log into BGs occassionally to get a dose of pvp-lite (BGs).  BGs while not the sole factor ahve contributed to the slow degredation of the once unique EQ2 pvp experience.

If you were to do the math and just factor in the time it takes to complete the requirements for the T1 to T2 to T3 piece for every single slot you see it would be an unwise expenditure of time and energy to grind BGs instead of just facerolling the SS Em mobs that drop the equivalent of the T3 Piece.

@alaplayer wrote:  Well on the flip side of the coin in what way is it fair that you can get best in slot stat pieces win or lose, when PVE has to kill mob x to get that piece to progress to the next mob.

The T3 pvp gear takes far more man hours to get than any one piece of the EM gear that it is nearly identical too.  The T3 pvp gear is not the best in slot piece.  One has to complete the requirements for the t1 then upgrade to the t2 then upgrade to the t3 piece.  Their is no such requirment requiring one to have obtained both the quested (T1 pvp equivalent) and the heroic piece (T2) prior to obtaining the raid EM piece. 

Many of the EM raid mobs can be 1-2 grouped every few days. All of the trash can be killed with 2-3 people and mercs even on alts obtaining quite nice random jewelry and items (although we all know the RNG can be finicky).  Furthermore one can buy almost any raid drop with PP farmed form SoH, PR, or a myraid of other soloable dungeons.  One does not have to raid nor be part of a 24 man team to obtain raid gear.  One can also farm plat to buy raid gear quicker than one can get the pvp equivalent.  Their is no pvp equivalent to PoW, SS challange gear, nor instanced mythicals (solo or grp).  Its all absic EM stuff that is easily obtainable.  One can join any casual raid force and fail at their class and still get gear.  We all know this to be the truth.

@Mathrim,  and Hennyo: said token system described is fair and long overdue IMO especially the part about only looting items from tables cleared.

##edited out incorrect copy/paste attribution to Alaplayer.

@Atan

The current proposed gear mechanic is more than fair once you factor in the time requiements to obtain said gear compared to the equivalent EM gear. EM gear requires low risk vs reward to get.  The proposed BG/open world pvp gear requires more risk vs reward for an open pvp player due to the infamy factor than facerolling EM mobs that drop the same pieces (nameds and trash), tagging along, or buying EM/SS Hm gear from soloing PP pinatas in VP, SoH, PR and other places.

Were t3 pvp gear to be = to PoW gear which I have not seen nor prob will see I would agree with you on the gear. The players killing that stuff should be the only players wearing that stuff.

***

Feel free to disagree I enjoy any vigorous debate. The gear reward system described is very near to one I proposed years ago which is most likely why I believe it to be a defendable position when equating toonpower required to obtain any EM piece and toonpower required to obtain a t3 pvp piece.

PS the lethality and toughness on pvp gear is near inconsequential and just gives us slightly more flavor in open world pvp. PVP is NOT affecting the PVE servers with this change unless you count some fewer number of EM gear sales related to loss of customers who have chosen to go forth and get gear themselves.  This mechanic change should hopefully benefit all casual raid forces and by proxxy benefit those in the top 10% as there will eventuially be more people to choose from to fill ranks at all levels of play. 

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Old 07-11-2012, 11:58 PM   #62
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I think people would not have as much of a problem with the BG's Gear if there was a EM SS Shoulders and BP, but at the moment there is no EM SS raid equivalent to the 2 pieces.
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Old 07-12-2012, 12:08 AM   #63
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[email protected] wrote:

I think people would not have as much of a problem with the BG's Gear if there was a EM SS Shoulders and BP, but at the moment there is no EM SS raid equivalent to the 2 pieces.

That is a very legitamate issue.  The two corresponding pvp pieces could be scaled to the dragon token version for equity or be seen as an alternative path for progression.  Over time these 2 pieces might be the lure for pve players to enter the bgs to get them however, I would prefer pvp/pvp-lite not impact the pve game to such an extent if at all as the myth shoulders are not that common as of yet to be called the pve equivalent.

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Old 07-12-2012, 12:09 AM   #64
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I think the new stats are fine, completely in line with the work you have to do to aquire them, but I think the stats on the chestplate and shoulders should be toned down "slightly". (by 1% potency/CB/10 Stats.)

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Old 07-12-2012, 12:14 AM   #65
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[email protected] wrote:

@alaplayer wrote:

The T3 pvp gear takes far more man hours to get than any one piece of the EM gear that it is nearly identical too.  The T3 pvp gear is not the best in slot piece.  One has to complete the requirements for the t1 then upgrade to the t2 then upgrade to the t3 piece.  Their is no such requirment requiring one to have obtained both the quested (T1 pvp equivalent) and the heroic piece (T2) prior to obtaining the raid EM piece. 

Many of the EM raid mobs can be 1-2 grouped every few days. All of the trash can be killed with 2-3 people and mercs even on alts obtaining quite nice random jewelry and items (although we all know the RNG can be finicky).  Furthermore one can buy almost any raid drop with PP farmed form SoH, PR, or a myraid of other soloable dungeons.  One does not have to raid nor be part of a 24 man team to obtain raid gear.  One can also farm plat to buy raid gear quicker than one can get the pvp equivalent.  Their is no pvp equivalent to PoW, SS challange gear, nor instanced mythicals (solo or grp).  Its all absic EM stuff that is easily obtainable.  One can join any casual raid force and fail at their class and still get gear.  We all know this to be the truth.

LOL I said none of that I have no idea where you came up with it, maybe someone before you is fail at quoting. Maybe one can buy any raid drop with PP. Maybe one can join any casual force and fail at their class and get loot, I am not part of a casual raid force. 

@Mathrim, Alaplayer and Hennyo: said token system described is fair and long overdue IMO especially the part about only looting items from tables cleared.

Again I said none of this and I do not wholly agree with it. I do think that the mobs should drop a generic pattern for whatever the drop and the raid can bid on it or distribute it with their preferred method. Some might think that this would cause more problems but it really wouldn't not with a competent raid force that wants to do what is best to win to distribute the pieces optimally, because this way everyone would get geared up much more efficiently than the haphazard random method. The primary reason I disagree with that is because any decent raid can bink a kill for a mob. Just because you kill a mob one time doesn't mean you should be able to farm tokens from much easier mobs to buy the gear that comes from the harder one, and I'm not talking about seperation of EM/HM tokens.

Feel free to disagree I enjoy any vigorous debate. The gear reward system described is very near to one I proposed years ago which is most likely why I believe it to be a defendable position when equating toonpower required to obtain any EM piece and toonpower required to obtain a t3 pvp piece.

I'm not being difficult here but the scenario you presented is totally skewed. SLR aside, for the purposes of this argument it doesn't exist, and if you MUST count it a mob still has to be dropped to acquire it. The PVP token system, if you lose you win, if you win you win a little more, PVE if you lose you lose, you get NOTHING. You can get a full complete set of T3 PVP gear without making any signifigant contribution whatsoever and never be on the winning team. If PVP awarded NOTHING to the loser this would be an entirely different story, in it's current state it awards gear for nothing. 

My understanding of what PVP was supposed to be was the best player, not the best gear, I don't PVP, I did run some BG's from time to time mainly Smugglers Den iirc the 24 man but it was well over a year ago since my last. PVP gear does not need to even be on a level with PVE gear, the stats could be +5 and you would have the same situation as far as PVP goes.

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Old 07-12-2012, 02:05 AM   #66
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[email protected] wrote:

I'm curious if what is on test is the intended result.

The gear available from BG grinding is now on par with raid gear stat wise.  For the most part you are just trading some yellow/red adorn slots for blue slots.   This is particularly disturbing when you consider the consolidation of many blue stats as no longer being segmented between PVP/PVE.

While I'm in favor of the two gear types being more compatible between systems, I question if they should be equally as viable.

You need to look at each piece and compair the BG vs the Raid piece and consider how little you may be giving up for the BG piece and not needing to do anything but participate in BGs to get it.

Many of us continue to play EQ2 cause its the best raiding game available, but when you present a system that you can get the same rewards from doing something solo/independent as you get from something that requires 24 people working cooperatively multiple days a week months on end, you remove much of the percieved value in continueing to play.

I post as I have a contigent of players who make no qualms about quitting this game if what is on test goes live.

My question is, what other penalty might I have using pvp gear for pve?  What amount of effectiveness is reasonable using gear rewarded for one playstyle in another?

Conversely,  I don't think my PVE raid gear should be equally effective in PVP play.  Certainly it should have some, maybe even semi-significant, but using real end game PVP gear should be significantly better than using PVE raid gear in pvp combat.   Looking at the blue adorns available for those slots, it does feel like to me that PVP end gear will be soundly better than PVE gear in pvp combat.

However, the same is not true in using PVP gear in PVE with what is on test.  Now, if you're of the tiny margin of raiders kitting out in PoW gear, maybe the BG gear isn't comparable, but for the vast majority of players the BG gear becomes the best thing they can get for a number of their slots, and therein lies the issue with these changes. 

Compair also the gear from PVE heroic content with the BG rewards, and why do heroic content at all?  Heroic content vs the RNG and the social issues of finding a group that can gel together, vs just queuing BG's and win or lose you make progress to your reward.

Is this really the design SoE plans and wants to put forth?  Do you want to send that message to your players?

I understand your logic and generally (i.e 99% of the time I mostly agree with the things you post sir) but I have to disagree with you on this one.

There's several things that come to mind while I'm thinking about my rebuttle, so bare with me as I try to conslidate my thoughts into (hopefully) a cohesive thought.

1) In order to *get* to the teir 3 raid equivalent items in question you *MUST* have the two tier(S) gear prior to you acquireing the t3 items peice. (not sure if thats changed, but I doubt it) With that being said have you looked at the prices per item? (the prices that Beko state are true) which easily makes a combined total of over 12k tokens you need to get just to get the chance to save more tokens to buy ONE t3 item. (also consider that on average your only getting roughtly 50 to 150 tokens a crack via bgs mode win or lose..... don't know about naggy open world token earnings because I'm not a naggy peep myself)

2) Based on #1 point, tell me how many people you know (outside the relatively egocentric few that we may all know, but are extremely few) that have enough time to viable play so quickly/consistently/free time enought to burn thru what amounts to litterally tens of thousands (actually probably more like in the dang near hundred thousand range) to replace all their gear with PVP gear? this gear isn't designed to get fast and it WON'T be fast. When this GU64 comes out it isn't going to be like half a of a servers population is going to be walking around in full PVP gear in less then a month. Heck even the game playing egocentrics won't have full gear in a month. (albiet again I agree with Beko on the proposed amount of hours its going to take)

3)Blue slots. You bring this up but have you noticed the blue adornments? there less in stat then the equvilent red raid ones. You only get Blue adornments (along with whites) on PVP gear. (haven't checked the gear again to confirm if the blue slots were removed, and if that is the case, this gear is even more worthless then for PVE) With that being said, even if you have peeps geared with all PVP gear and Measure him against his PVE raid gear equivalent, the PVPer's stats are going to be less, therefore equaling less PVE effeciency regardless of the class arch type you play.

4)PVP gear lacks procs entirely, lacks set bonuses and lacks the ability to equip war runes. Last time I checked that's a big deal, in which threads to this day are still being made to complain about the pre-determined procs we have on SS gear now not being as good as war runes (and people wanting red slot gear with options for war runes attainable again)

5) Your PVE gear ISN"T equally effective in PVP..... actually not even close. There's a stat called Lethality, its a big deal if you understand what it does. When you look at your in game stats now (on test) it says something like your CB is this effective in PVE and this effective in PVP. Now take this example I'm about to give you. Lets say you have a toon with 300CB in PVE gear. His actual PVP cb ends up being like 40cb. Now take a toon who has all PVP gear with the lethality attached to it. His 300CB is more like 80cb in pvp....thats a significant difference and your PVE raider is going to get his face smahsed fighting a PVPer. 

6) Heroic content isn't obsolete if you look at the amount of time it will take you to get your ONE PVP t3 item. Heroic SS EM zones can be blasted individually in less then 10 minutes. Heck you can do EM CD, lyc, DP, and UD all in under an hour, rinse and repeat the process all day long (thanks to only 90min timers now), while maintaing a chance to get the best weapons in game (myths). All herioc SS HM zones can be independently done in 20 to 30 mins or less. ALL zones reset in 90 mins now. Your assuming that BG's is going to be this none stop constent uber item looting system....its not. You have to wait for bg to que and your only killing players who drop no loot in battles that take roughly 15 to 20mins win or lose. Heroic content is viable and fine still.

7) Everyone and anyone who presently raids now, isn't going to just stop raiding and to think otherwise is ridiculous (even by your standards mang) I raid and I can promise you I'm not going to miss a raid for a que in bgs. I can tell  you that getting my scout gear is still easier and faster raiding then needing thousands upon thousands of tokens for one peice of gear. I can tell you that even if I got a peice of PVP gear to fill a gap for what I lack in my PVE raid gear, that the PVP gear would be traded out and gone the minute I got my PVE raider gear equvialent slot/item. Tbh this PVP gear almost reminds me of the time back when SF expac was the latetest and greatest and people were using one or two items of PVP gear for raid slot items. (heck I did that! and guess what that gear back then was acquired at like 1/16th fraction of the cost if not even less to what the new gear is going to cost now in tokens and time) Heck I still remember it taking like 2 weeks to get enough tokens just to get that one piece of gear and guess what, when I got the raid equvialent the PVP gear got tossed.

Honestly I like where there going with this update. I think in the long run the things your concerned about Atan won't be anything of the such. PVE gear is always going/will be the best gear to have for PVE period. Peeps if they raid now, aren't going to stop raiding. (think about all the people who couldn't put up ACT and stroke themselves to there parse if they stopped raiding ;p) PVP gear will be the better gear to bgs or open world fight in (if your naggy) hands down because of Lethality. PVP now should be allot more fun and I'am honestly looking forward to this game update and trolling/being trolled by good skilled peeps in BGs again.

I hope that I haven't insulted you anyway as that was not my attention. I think your a well informed player who posts good stuff.

Respectfully,

Lethlian.

Pre posting. Yes I prolly have gramar and spelling errors in this post as I don't have a spell checker and if you going to flame me on it qq moar if that bugs you ;p

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Old 07-12-2012, 02:54 AM   #67
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 Vlahkmaak wrote:

@[email protected]_old wrote:

We would absolutely NOT love this. We like open world pvp not BGs. Generally we hate BGs and wish they were never added to the game. Some Naggy players like them but many of us would be far happier if they were NEVER introduced to EQ2 for the simple fact that they have contributed to destroying our way of life. Many casual/medium HC raiders have just gone back to blue servers and log into BGs occassionally to get a dose of pvp-lite (BGs). BGs while not the sole factor ahve contributed to the slow degredation of the once unique EQ2 pvp experience.

If you were to do the math and just factor in the time it takes to complete the requirements for the T1 to T2 to T3 piece for every single slot you see it would be an unwise expenditure of time and energy to grind BGs instead of just facerolling the SS Em mobs that drop the equivalent of the T3 Piece.

@alaplayer wrote:

The T3 pvp gear takes far more man hours to get than any one piece of the EM gear that it is nearly identical too. The T3 pvp gear is not the best in slot piece. One has to complete the requirements for the t1 then upgrade to the t2 then upgrade to the t3 piece. Their is no such requirment requiring one to have obtained both the quested (T1 pvp equivalent) and the heroic piece (T2) prior to obtaining the raid EM piece.

Many of the EM raid mobs can be 1-2 grouped every few days. All of the trash can be killed with 2-3 people and mercs even on alts obtaining quite nice random jewelry and items (although we all know the RNG can be finicky). Furthermore one can buy almost any raid drop with PP farmed form SoH, PR, or a myraid of other soloable dungeons. One does not have to raid nor be part of a 24 man team to obtain raid gear. One can also farm plat to buy raid gear quicker than one can get the pvp equivalent. Their is no pvp equivalent to PoW, SS challange gear, nor instanced mythicals (solo or grp). Its all absic EM stuff that is easily obtainable. One can join any casual raid force and fail at their class and still get gear. We all know this to be the truth.

Seriously this ^

@Mathrim, Alaplayer and Hennyo: said token system described is fair and long overdue IMO especially the part about only looting items from tables cleared.

@Atan

The current proposed gear mechanic is more than fair once you factor in the time requiements to obtain said gear compared to the equivalent EM gear. EM gear requires low risk vs reward to get. The proposed BG/open world pvp gear requires more risk vs reward for an open pvp player due to the infamy factor than facerolling EM mobs that drop the same pieces (nameds and trash), tagging along, or buying EM/SS Hm gear from soloing PP pinatas in VP, SoH, PR and other places.

Were t3 pvp gear to be = to PoW gear which I have not seen nor prob will see I would agree with you on the gear. The players killing that stuff should be the only players wearing that stuff.

***

Feel free to disagree I enjoy any vigorous debate. The gear reward system described is very near to one I proposed years ago which is most likely why I believe it to be a defendable position when equating toonpower required to obtain any EM piece and toonpower required to obtain a t3 pvp piece.

PS the lethality and toughness on pvp gear is near inconsequential and just gives us slightly more flavor in open world pvp. PVP is NOT affecting the PVE servers with this change unless you count some fewer number of EM gear sales related to loss of customers who have chosen to go forth and get gear themselves. This mechanic change should hopefully benefit all casual raid forces and by proxxy benefit those in the top 10% as there will eventuially be more people to choose from to fill ranks at all levels of play.

This is a freaking spot on post to almost everything being said. Good post mang /thread

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Old 07-12-2012, 03:41 AM   #68
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alaplayer wrote:

[email protected] wrote:

@alaplayer wrote:

The T3 pvp gear takes far more man hours to get than any one piece of the EM gear that it is nearly identical too.  The T3 pvp gear is not the best in slot piece.  One has to complete the requirements for the t1 then upgrade to the t2 then upgrade to the t3 piece.  Their is no such requirment requiring one to have obtained both the quested (T1 pvp equivalent) and the heroic piece (T2) prior to obtaining the raid EM piece. 

Many of the EM raid mobs can be 1-2 grouped every few days. All of the trash can be killed with 2-3 people and mercs even on alts obtaining quite nice random jewelry and items (although we all know the RNG can be finicky).  Furthermore one can buy almost any raid drop with PP farmed form SoH, PR, or a myraid of other soloable dungeons.  One does not have to raid nor be part of a 24 man team to obtain raid gear.  One can also farm plat to buy raid gear quicker than one can get the pvp equivalent.  Their is no pvp equivalent to PoW, SS challange gear, nor instanced mythicals (solo or grp).  Its all absic EM stuff that is easily obtainable.  One can join any casual raid force and fail at their class and still get gear.  We all know this to be the truth.

LOL I said none of that I have no idea where you came up with it, maybe someone before you is fail at quoting. Maybe one can buy any raid drop with PP. Maybe one can join any casual force and fail at their class and get loot, I am not part of a casual raid force. 

@Mathrim, Alaplayer and Hennyo: said token system described is fair and long overdue IMO especially the part about only looting items from tables cleared.

Again I said none of this and I do not wholly agree with it. I do think that the mobs should drop a generic pattern for whatever the drop and the raid can bid on it or distribute it with their preferred method. Some might think that this would cause more problems but it really wouldn't not with a competent raid force that wants to do what is best to win to distribute the pieces optimally, because this way everyone would get geared up much more efficiently than the haphazard random method. The primary reason I disagree with that is because any decent raid can bink a kill for a mob. Just because you kill a mob one time doesn't mean you should be able to farm tokens from much easier mobs to buy the gear that comes from the harder one, and I'm not talking about seperation of EM/HM tokens.

Feel free to disagree I enjoy any vigorous debate. The gear reward system described is very near to one I proposed years ago which is most likely why I believe it to be a defendable position when equating toonpower required to obtain any EM piece and toonpower required to obtain a t3 pvp piece.

I'm not being difficult here but the scenario you presented is totally skewed. SLR aside, for the purposes of this argument it doesn't exist, and if you MUST count it a mob still has to be dropped to acquire it. The PVP token system, if you lose you win, if you win you win a little more, PVE if you lose you lose, you get NOTHING. You can get a full complete set of T3 PVP gear without making any signifigant contribution whatsoever and never be on the winning team. If PVP awarded NOTHING to the loser this would be an entirely different story, in it's current state it awards gear for nothing. 

My understanding of what PVP was supposed to be was the best player, not the best gear, I don't PVP, I did run some BG's from time to time mainly Smugglers Den iirc the 24 man but it was well over a year ago since my last. PVP gear does not need to even be on a level with PVE gear, the stats could be +5 and you would have the same situation as far as PVP goes.

I do not think your being difficult, I think you are advancing a differing point of view/ alternate arguement.  We would like a gear solution that meets our needs on the open world of Nagafen and that does not impact the pve game in a negative fashion while at the same time is MAINTAINABLE by the dev team.  This last part is often overlooked/neglected.  i think most of the pvp community would agree that we want our world to remain a viable play stlye within the EQ2 realm w/o hurting the game.

I edited out any attribution to you in my original post for a pve token type system.  I see no fault in the logic presented by the others and such a system would have similiar merit to your generic pattern option. Adjusting RNG fail at the mob would probably be the best solution as people like to get that immediate reward for completing a task.  Kill a mob take its stuff, equip stuff kill more digital dragons.

I double checked your replay one page back you quite clearly indicated the new BG system would grant best in slot items over pve raid content.  That may not have been your intent but my reply in the first section therefore remains valid.  With the exception of the chest/shoulders as pointed out a few posts back the PVP/BG gear is not best in slot over EM it is = in slot.  HM will contnue to be best in slot.  I will spend more time looking over the items to ensure this is an accruate reflection.

When referring to EM/Casual raiders I was not saying "you" specifically hence the use of the word ONE which you also bolded demonstrating your understanding. Generally anyone can show up and kill stuff and get stuff.  One has merely to round up an appropriately geared posse to kill stuff.  The harder the stuff to be killed the more gear/skill required.  the same is true in pvp.  one must group up with appropriatley geared/skilled players to kill both mobs and players at the same time.  Unfortunately main raid mobs as overland targets have been almost fully strpped form the game. 

In the good old days when the top PVP guilds killed avatars and Kos era mobs, executing those scripts while at the same time fighting off scores of enemy players from 10-40 at a time there was no question as to the "epicness" of the accomplishment with the exception of a few tainted gm/dev assist zone disruptions (yes, I was in Nek forest and turned into an NPC/unmovable object by some greater power while attempting to disrupt a Hate kill - only time that had ever happend while trying to organize a counter offensive)..

I agree wholeheartedly with you that failure in pvp and by extension BGs should not net a reward.  "Keep what you kill," to steal a line from the Necromongers is my matra.  I would welcome a warfield where tokens were not given to a loosing side.  I would welcome a warfield where tokens were not rewarded just for showing up.  I would welcome a BG system where loosers went home emptyhanded. i preferred the writ system as it went along way to preventing ALTploition - the act of killing your alts on the opposing side to gain infamy/tokens.

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Old 07-12-2012, 05:03 AM   #69
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Well said, Lethlian.

There's absolutely nothing wrong with giving players something to look for. After all we don't want the BGs to be deserted again after a month or two because there are no long-term incentives.

Also quoting this:

I agree wholeheartedly with you that failure in pvp and by extension BGs should not net a reward.  "Keep what you kill," to steal a line from the Necromongers is my matra.  I would welcome a warfield where tokens were not given to a loosing side.  I would welcome a warfield where tokens were not rewarded just for showing up.  I would welcome a BG system where loosers went home emptyhanded. i preferred the writ system as it went along way to preventing ALTploition - the act of killing your alts on the opposing side to gain infamy/tokens.

This would be a VERY bad move because it keeps new players from doing BGs. People should be encouraged to try the BGs, not punished for doing so. It's not like everyone in EQ2 has several accounts and is exploiting the game mechanics.

Also due to the crappy Matchmaker this could cause more frustration than fun if you're unlucky a few times and get the team without healers/tanks etc.

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Old 07-12-2012, 11:37 AM   #70
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I'm not going to quote any specific comments I would like to respond to from above, but just point out where you guys looking at this from the PvP Nagafen viewpoint are completely missing the outlook from the PvE/BG side that I see. I strongly believe that Nagafen should have its own ruleset and gear balance so that Nagafen players don't have to carry a set of gear for both PvP and PvE. The same should be true for PvE players stepping into BG's. My issue isn't with the fact that PvP gear has raid level stats on it, its that there is no equivalent counter to earn such gear from a PvE viewpoint.  Now to my points.

1. Skyshrine came out on April 17th, 2012. It has been almost 3 months now. I am in a guild that clears all EM Skyshrine content and some HM content twice a week raiding a total of 12 hours a week. I maintain 80%+ attendance and yet even after 3 months I am STILL missing 4 of my raid level items and there IS NO easy mode raid version of the shoulders or breastplate. I am not the only one. There are tons of my guildies who do not have their jewelry and only 4 of the people in our guild have managed to get a contested Hexapola BP because thats how many times we've found the mob up in nearly 3 months.  Are you really going to sit there and claim that if I had chosen to BG instead and bypassed PvE content, that I wouldn't be in a completely full set of raid level BG gear after 3 months? Keep in mind when I say bypassing PvE content, I am also talking about skipping solo and Heroic content and putting the other 8 to 10 hours I play a week non-raiding into PvP also.

2. PvP/BG gives you a ABSOLUTELY GUARANTEED loot system where the item you want is always within your reach. You CAN NOT argue this point. You can talk about SLR buying and EM loot dropping rates all you want, it doesn't change the absolute fact that both of those depend 100% completely on the randomness of the loot generator. If you want to talk about SLR, fine, let's go there. I have seen ZERO raid healer jewelry items for sale in the last three months and absolutely ZERO raid level shoulders and breastplates. Please tell me how I'm supposed to fill in the holes in my gear via SLR? If you want to talk about EM loot dropping rates, fine, lets go there. Please explain to me why half of our healers and mages and half of our scouts are still wearing only 1 earring if they even have 1 yet. Quite a few of our players are still wearing only 132 stat instance jewelry in various spots and 26 out of our 30 raiders have NO raid bp and shoulders. The fact that you guys can sit there and say that PvP having a static currency vendor that sells PvE useable raid level gear isn't a concern is astounding.

3. I haven't actually bought any PvP armor on test to confirm the validity of blue slots working in PvE, but from just viewing the changes in UI and combat arts/buffs, PvP and PvE combat stats have merged.  If blue adorns on PvP gear are active and working in PvE, then there is virtually NO difference whatsoever in PvP armor and PvE armor besides the PvP armor getting Toughness. I think maybe the blue adorns may be 1% less CB than a red adorn, but are completely equal to yellows if I remember right. Class focuses are all moved to the character trait window and there is nothing separating the two types of gear besides 1 Blue vs 1 Red. If blue adorns work in PvE, PvP armor will blow all heroic content armor away even with the 1% lesser blues. The base stats on the raid level PvP armor far offset the lesser blue adornments when compared to anything non-raid. Trying to compare 171 stats 10.5 cb/pot gear to heroic content gear is laughable. The only thing from heroic content that will be better than PvP will be Mythicals and guess what. PvP players can run those same zones just like the PvE players for a 1 in 60 zones drop average like we get. It's not like that content actually poses a challenge.

4. Now, lets talk about the truth to BG's. It takes no skill, no attention, and absolutely no effort besides the bare minimum to get your tokens even if you are on the losing side.  All it takes is time. Let's look at the history of BG's and how it went. This timeline may be off some because it's been so long since BG's.

Week 1 - Players complained because people were joining and going AFK to earn tokens. AFK detection script and AFK vote installed.

week 2 - Players complained because people were cross server farming each other and forfeiting for quicker matches. Relic damage on carrier and point earning rate was slowed.

Week 3 - Players complained because flag carrier wouldn't cap the flag and would just turtle in base to delay match. Flag carrier vulnerability code installed.

Week 4 - Players complained because getting put into random BG's with no healer and no tank versus pre-mades or 2 tank/2 healer opposing teams was becoming all to common. Absolutely nothing is done about this and players just start forfeiting matches and sitting at the spawn spots out of frustration.

Week 5 - Players complain about people running around BG's in circles doing nothing, turning auto run on and running into trees, or using scripts/macros to do just enough to maintain participation credit and not be voteable afk. Absolutely nothing is done about this.

Week 6 - Players complained because speed hacks/racial run buffs/temp immunities were destroying CTF fun. Absolutely nothing is done about this.

Week 7 - Players complain about PvE'ers being too powerful in PvP. Gear is segrated. BG's die immediately after.

Week 8 - All PvE'rs bank their PvP token gear and forget BG's ever existed.  I'm sure I missed some more details in there.

You guys can kick and scream about how long it takes to get the piece and how easy mode fail Skyshrine is, but it doesn't change the absolute fact that a single, solo player, just has to click that queue button and stand there spamming a heal while watching televison and wallah, 20, 30, 40, 50 whatever BG's later, they get a new piece of raid level PvE gear. BG's can be just as fail and pathetic as some of the Skyshrine raid fights. It doesn't change anything with what I've listed above.

If you are going to give PvP'ers/BG'ers a brain dead way of earning guaranteed slot PvE useable raid level gear, then it's only fair that the same be done for the PvE environment. And before you say, well, just let the PvE'r queue up for BG's too, that doesn't make it right. For those players who detest PvP/BG but enjoy solo/heroic PvE content, there is no option for guaranteed slot raid level gear.

This is the crux of the issue in my eyes. Just to counterpoint an earlier response that says Skyshrine raid gear merchant should require you killing the raid mobs to buy a piece of gear.....

Where is the PvP raid mob requirement that a solo pvp player must kill to buy raid level gear? Oh right. There isn't one. Just click your button and queue up and eventually you can buy raid gear. All of the PvE players actually have to kill raid mobs to qualify for their raid gear.......sounds fair? Nope.

Quit looking at this solely from the open world PvP viewpoint of Nagafen only please. THERE IS NO RISK VS REWARD TO BATTLEGROUNDS. It's clicking a queue button and standing there until you get gear. How is there anything with less risk than that?

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Old 07-12-2012, 12:13 PM   #71
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@Atan

The current proposed gear mechanic is more than fair once you factor in the time requiements to obtain said gear compared to the equivalent EM gear. EM gear requires low risk vs reward to get.  The proposed BG/open world pvp gear requires more risk vs reward for an open pvp player due to the infamy factor than facerolling EM mobs that drop the same pieces (nameds and trash), tagging along, or buying EM/SS Hm gear from soloing PP pinatas in VP, SoH, PR and other places.

Were t3 pvp gear to be = to PoW gear which I have not seen nor prob will see I would agree with you on the gear. The players killing that stuff should be the only players wearing that stuff.

You and I view it as low risk vs reward, however the majority of raid forces are strugling to kill all EM content per the rankings at guildprogress.  So I'm not as apt to discount how 'easy' that gear is to obtain.  Particularly when you focus on specific slots.  It may be easy for you and I, but we don't appear to be in the middle of the pack.

I'm withholding final judgement until I know exactly how many hours it will take someone to get the chestpiece.  And if it can be done by doing nothing but queueing and losing. 

But even then, I still do not agree with the arguement that that PVP piece needs to be equal to SS EM raid gear on PVE servers.  I see no issues on Naggy, but on every other server, I do not agree with any arguement so far that the PVP piece needs to be equally effective in PVE content as raid gear.  I do fully understand why it should be the case on Naggy, but on all other servers I feel a 10% degredation in PVE content is more than warranted.  

In my opinion, there is a reason we had a forked codebase for PVP servers, and this should be implemented a little smarter. Granted, I also understand SoE doesn't have the resources do do anything 'smartly' anymore, we're left with what can be done 'affordably' only.

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Old 07-12-2012, 12:18 PM   #72
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[email protected]_old wrote:

THERE IS NO RISK VS REWARD TO BATTLEGROUNDS. It's clicking a queue button and standing there until you get gear. How is there anything with less risk than that?

This is something that's always bothered me about BGs.  There are no consequences.  At all.  You can die 100 times in a match, and never take gear damage or XP debit.  BEFORE folks flame about how it'd add up exponentially for BGers ... yeah, I get that.  The same "die once, take 10% gear damage plus a 0.5% XP debt" mechanic would be hideous in any PVP context, but especially in BG.  The only penalty to dying in a BG--and it's only temporary--are the death effects/having to rebuff a few buffs that keep you out of the match for a short time.

 

I personally think that there should be a "die any number of times in a BG match, take X% gear damage and Y% XP debt when you zone out of the match."

 

Another series of points that Mathrim made (which I apparently repressed in my months since I BG'd last) were the myriad ways folks can exploit BGs.  I think that the "anti-AFK" code should be tweaked a good bit.  Something like "if player is perma-auto-running into a corner" or "doesn't move but perma-spams-heal/buff on self or other non-moving teammate" THEN that player gets zero tokens.  Or "player must do at least X damage/healing/match points" to get more than zero tokens.  I think I need to brush my BG toon up a bit and play when the new changes go live.  And I might even try to play on my PVE/adventuring toons, even though at 92 I expect a lot of hideous, consequence-free dying until I can come up with some PVP gear!

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Old 07-12-2012, 12:25 PM   #73
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Well lucky for us the new reward system gives you VERY little if you do nothing and if you do alot it can award you up to 300+ tokens, if you do very little your rewarded 40-50 tokens.  I've seen people complain about getting 10-30 for a Win on test.

They need to make it moreso like that, so people get even less for doing nothing, and players doing more rewarded more.

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Old 07-12-2012, 12:29 PM   #74
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3 points that I think would go a long ways to fixing the majority of raiding complaints I have. It doesn't change the fact that pve heroic content and pve solo content is still eclipsed by pvp gear that can be obtained solo through BG's with minimal player effort.

1. Why is there no easy mode version of Vyskudra and Sevalak? Why are the shoulders and breastplates restricted to Hard Mode kills only? All of the UD bosses have EM and Challenge modes.  Fix Vyskudra and Sevalak to have easy modes and the main complaint with those 2 pieces goes away. 

2. Jewelry is the biggest pita in game. Especially the earrings since they only drop off of the 1 mob in Skyshrine and only drop one at a time. Jewelry loot tables need to be balanced better.  Either add a second earring drop in somewhere or spread out the drop numbers so that jewelry is more available.

3. Install a Raid Skyshrine Exchange vendor that will trade a piece of raid gear from X mob for an equivalent piece of raid gear from the same loot table of X mob + 20 blue shards. As armor pieces and excess jewelry start going to alt level or SLR, raid mains could roll on the item instead and trade it in for their missing slot pieces.

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Old 07-12-2012, 12:30 PM   #75
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[email protected] Bayle wrote:

Well lucky for us the new reward system gives you VERY little if you do nothing and if you do alot it can award you up to 300+ tokens, if you do very little your rewarded 40-50 tokens.  I've seen people complain about getting 10-30 for a Win on test.

They need to make it moreso like that, so people get even less for doing nothing, and players doing more rewarded more.

That, I like.  I need to read the BG change notes again, I remember reading that a tiered-reward structure was being built, but don't remember hearing that big of a difference between "doing well" and "being a slug."  Slugs, even on a winning team, certainly should NOT get a meaningful reward for their lack of effort.  Or rather, their reward would be meaningful commensurate to their level of sluggishness.

(Not that I'm being speciesist against slugs; I'm sure they fulfill a vital ecological niche.  Just not in the BGs.)

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Old 07-12-2012, 12:37 PM   #76
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Gealaen_Gaiamancer wrote:

Another series of points that Mathrim made (which I apparently repressed in my months since I BG'd last) were the myriad ways folks can exploit BGs.  I think that the "anti-AFK" code should be tweaked a good bit.  Something like "if player is perma-auto-running into a corner" or "doesn't move but perma-spams-heal/buff on self or other non-moving teammate" THEN that player gets zero tokens.  Or "player must do at least X damage/healing/match points" to get more than zero tokens.  I think I need to brush my BG toon up a bit and play when the new changes go live.  And I might even try to play on my PVE/adventuring toons, even though at 92 I expect a lot of hideous, consequence-free dying until I can come up with some PVP gear!

I think we should tweak the Public Quest participation code out for BG's and copy it into that environment.  I've never heard what the exact metrics are for qualifying for the PQ, but they did make it so that a minimum level of actual involvement is required to get rewards or else you get jack.

Maybe make it so that x number of actual successful cures on separate players are landed for healers. X number of combat arts on separate players are used for scouts. X number of taunts on separate players for tanks. X number of mage nukes on separate players are used for mages.

Forced participation may need to be looked at as well as group makeup balancing. The dungeon finder group balancing ended up being craptastic as well.

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Old 07-12-2012, 12:43 PM   #77
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[email protected] wrote:

But even then, I still do not agree with the arguement that that PVP piece needs to be equal to SS EM raid gear on PVE servers.  I see no issues on Naggy, but on every other server, I do not agree with any arguement so far that the PVP piece needs to be equally effective in PVE content as raid gear.  I do fully understand why it should be the case on Naggy, but on all other servers I feel a 10% degredation in PVE content is more than warranted.

I generally agree with the thought that PVP gear in PVE should be marginally less effective than dedicated PVE gear.  Having said that, discussing that 'marginal effectiveness' is where things seem to be going all contentious.  If I understand Atan's point, the VERY BEST PVP items will (with these changes) be roughly equivalent in quality to the SECOND BEST PVE items, when used in PVE settings.  So, I'm guessing that actual gear equality--having the most elite PVP gear equalling HM Raid items--would be really contentious!  And yes, I did just say that to be funny; that really would raise a storm of ire.

 

Does any PVP gear *NEED* to be equal to SS EM raid gear in PVE?  Well ... the way I read the intent of the change ... yes, apparently.  The whole point of the revamp is to make PVP and PVE gear more similar.  It might be a bridge too far, but it also might be a way of fostering broader participation in PVP by traditional PVE'rs and PVE by folks who'd otherwise be PVPing.

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Old 07-12-2012, 12:51 PM   #78
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Lethlian wrote:

Honestly I like where there going with this update. I think in the long run the things your concerned about Atan won't be anything of the such. PVE gear is always going/will be the best gear to have for PVE period. Peeps if they raid now, aren't going to stop raiding. (think about all the people who couldn't put up ACT and stroke themselves to there parse if they stopped raiding ;p) PVP gear will be the better gear to bgs or open world fight in (if your naggy) hands down because of Lethality. PVP now should be allot more fun and I'am honestly looking forward to this game update and trolling/being trolled by good skilled peeps in BGs again.

Many of the points you bring up are things I'm aware of but didn't delve into when I posted cause I'm concerned about the perception more thant the implementation.  But your post adds depth to this discussion and you raise valid points.

I love where this update is going if my home is on Nagafen.  Everything about it makes sense for that purpose.  Heck if PVP was setup this way and in the game when I started, I very well might be running a raid guild on naggy instead of where I am.  However, I do not agree with the same system applied to PVE servers.  While PVE gear is going to be the best, the PVE gear that is markably better than the PVP set is beyond 85-95% of the raiders out there currently (based upon what drops clearly better stuff and what guilds can kill it).  So, if your not in a guild killing alot of drunder HM, Hexapola, and regularly getting the better EM drops, the BG grind appears to be a better and more sure-fire way to get gear that is PVE effective.

As Mathrim points out, you know you don't have to try, you can just queue up and die a few times and get tokens.  You can figure out which BG gets you the most tokens the fastest and half-asz that ad nausium while you watch TV or play Diablo3 at the same time.

Many people have that perception of the BG reward system.  Because it rewards failure as heavily as it does, its percieved by many as a lazy reward system.  As a result, I'm getting grumbling from a fair amount of PVE players who just aren't sure they want to keep playing when someone can be that sucky and lazy and get virtually the same rewards.  (Yes I know this arguement is used in other parts of game play and isn't a great arguement, but it doesn't mean people don't percieve it this way).

To be fair, there is also a contigent of PVE raiders I've talked to that are looking forward to exploiting BG's to get specific pieces of gear.  So there are those that like the idea of getting better gear with little effort.  My concerns is what it does to those mid and lower tier raiding guilds that are struggling already.  It doesn't take many people shifting focus to cause more of them to fold.

In the end I believe that if the effectiveness in PVE was degraded on all servers but Nagafen, the system would be better.  You're still not making a compelling arguement to me on why any amount of BG grinding should give you PVE effective gear as good as T1 raid gear if the player is on any other server than Nagafen where they can't get jumped into PVP while engaged in PVE content.

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Old 07-12-2012, 12:55 PM   #79
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Gealaen_Gaiamancer wrote:

  The whole point of the revamp is to make PVP and PVE gear more similar.  It might be a bridge too far, but it also might be a way of fostering broader participation in PVP by traditional PVE'rs and PVE by folks who'd otherwise be PVPing.

I read that point as well and it fixes a very real issue that exists on Nagafen, if only the implementation only affected Nagafen.

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Old 07-12-2012, 12:58 PM   #80
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[email protected] wrote:

Gealaen_Gaiamancer wrote:

  The whole point of the revamp is to make PVP and PVE gear more similar.  It might be a bridge too far, but it also might be a way of fostering broader participation in PVP by traditional PVE'rs and PVE by folks who'd otherwise be PVPing.

I read that point as well and it fixes a very real issue that exists on Nagafen, if only the implementation only affected Nagafen.

You are rewarded how well you do in BGs now, you werent before, so all this arguing about it is silly.

THERE would be no reason for PVErs to do BGs if they gave LACKluster rewards.

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Old 07-12-2012, 01:04 PM   #81
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[email protected] Bayle wrote:

THERE would be no reason for PVErs to do BGs if they gave LACKluster rewards.

I disagree, I do BG's for better gear to do more BG's with.  I've never needed anything from them to work in PVE to have reason to do them.  Its a mini-game, nothing more.

Plus I like making zerkers cry in BG's

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Old 07-12-2012, 01:09 PM   #82
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[email protected] wrote:

[email protected] Bayle wrote:

THERE would be no reason for PVErs to do BGs if they gave LACKluster rewards.

I disagree, I do BG's for better gear to do more BG's with.  I've never needed anything from them to work in PVE to have reason to do them.  Its a mini-game, nothing more.

Plus I like making zerkers cry in BG's

I don't wanna change gear every time I want to do something, thats the entire point of the change Atan.

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Old 07-12-2012, 01:12 PM   #83
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[email protected] Bayle wrote:

You are rewarded how well you do in BGs now, you werent before, so all this arguing about it is silly.

THERE would be no reason for PVErs to do BGs if they gave LACKluster rewards.

Explain to me how I'm rewarded for killing a raid mob for the 50th time that doesn't drop anything the raid needs and loot is going to crap alts or SLR.

Now, explain to me why that player who is on the losing team or on the winning team but running around in circles in the BG is awarded tokens that can be used to purchase raid level useable PvE gear every single BG is fair.

You are REWARDED tokens that can be used to purchase gear just for participating in the battleground. Quit trying to ignore the fact. The same can't be said for the PvE environment. We spend lots of nights dying, wiping, or just getting screwed by the random generator with no useable loot reward whatsoever to show for it. 

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Old 07-12-2012, 01:13 PM   #84
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[email protected] Bayle wrote:

I don't wanna change gear every time I want to do something, thats the entire point of the change Atan.

No, the point is not having to change gear if you get jumped in open world pvp.

I expect any serious PVE player to be still swapping gear to BG, as you simply don't min/max the same with it, don't value the same procs, and in general need to setup different from a gear and AA perspective.

Nothing about this change really changes that good PVE players will for sure still be swapping gear.

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Old 07-12-2012, 01:14 PM   #85
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[email protected]_old wrote:

[email protected] Bayle wrote:

You are rewarded how well you do in BGs now, you werent before, so all this arguing about it is silly.

THERE would be no reason for PVErs to do BGs if they gave LACKluster rewards.

Explain to me how I'm rewarded for killing a raid mob for the 50th time that doesn't drop anything the raid needs and loot is going to crap alts or SLR.

Now, explain to me why that player who is on the losing team or on the winning team but running around in circles in the BG is awarded tokens that can be used to purchase raid level useable PvE gear every single BG is fair.

You are REWARDED tokens that can be used to purchase gear just for participating in the battleground. Quit trying to ignore the fact. The same can't be said for the PvE environment. We spend lots of nights dying, wiping, or just getting screwed by the random generator with no loot reward whatsoever to show for it. 

The "crap gear" can be sold for massive plat/given to alts.

You can't buy BG gear with loot rights.

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Old 07-12-2012, 01:20 PM   #86
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[email protected] Bayle wrote:

The "crap gear" can be sold for massive plat/given to alts.

You can't buy BG gear with loot rights.

Who cares?

That doesn't help my main out at all and thats the toon that I want to play. The raid gear I am missing isn't sold in SLR so I could give a crap less about plat splits.  98% of the PvE raiding guilds in game don't have access to the gear I am looking for.

But you know what I can do? I can join a BG in a few days and snooze fest and replace my instance level items with raid level PvE gear without ever killing a raid mob for it.

Buying gear with loot rights is pointless when the gear isn't being sold. It isn't that hard to figure out.

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Old 07-12-2012, 01:23 PM   #87
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[email protected]_old wrote:

[email protected] Bayle wrote:

The "crap gear" can be sold for massive plat/given to alts.

You can't buy BG gear with loot rights.

Who cares?

That doesn't help my main out at all and thats the toon that I want to play. The raid gear I am missing isn't sold in SLR so I could give a crap less about plat splits.  98% of the PvE raiding guilds in game don't have access to the gear I am looking for.

But you know what I can do? I can join a BG in a few days and snooze fest and replace my instance level items with raid level PvE gear without ever killing a raid mob for it.

Buying gear with loot rights is pointless when the gear isn't being sold. It isn't that hard to figure out.

So? You can join that shark den, I will be there making sure your not getting tokens. SMILEY

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Old 07-12-2012, 01:23 PM   #88
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[email protected]_old wrote:

3 points that I think would go a long ways to fixing the majority of raiding complaints I have. It doesn't change the fact that pve heroic content and pve solo content is still eclipsed by pvp gear that can be obtained solo through BG's with minimal player effort.

1. Why is there no easy mode version of Vyskudra and Sevalak? Why are the shoulders and breastplates restricted to Hard Mode kills only? All of the UD bosses have EM and Challenge modes.  Fix Vyskudra and Sevalak to have easy modes and the main complaint with those 2 pieces goes away. 

2. Jewelry is the biggest pita in game. Especially the earrings since they only drop off of the 1 mob in Skyshrine and only drop one at a time. Jewelry loot tables need to be balanced better.  Either add a second earring drop in somewhere or spread out the drop numbers so that jewelry is more available.

3. Install a Raid Skyshrine Exchange vendor that will trade a piece of raid gear from X mob for an equivalent piece of raid gear from the same loot table of X mob + 20 blue shards. As armor pieces and excess jewelry start going to alt level or SLR, raid mains could roll on the item instead and trade it in for their missing slot pieces.

I think these 3 points would fix a lot of the problems people are having with PvE Raiding and will also fix the problems a lot of people here are having with the GB loot.

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Old 07-12-2012, 01:24 PM   #89
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The entire basis of this thread is ridiculous and entirely without merit.  Long story short raiders want better shoulders / whatever that other slot was that I can't be bothered to go back and read.

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Old 07-12-2012, 01:30 PM   #90
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[email protected] Bayle wrote:

So? You can join that shark den, I will be there making sure your not getting tokens.

Um.

Talathion. This isn't rocket science. You can't prevent anyone from getting tokens. You are rewarded tokens for losing. There is no participation check that I know besides the bare minimum of not being AFK in battlegrounds.

You can't prevent crap besides pretending you are keeping players that do this from earning additional tokens. And you know what, they weren't worried about those in the first place.

So really....congrats. You won the imaginary war.

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