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Old 05-25-2012, 07:48 PM   #61
Crychtonn

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Inflate stack amounts and crafting amounts.  Make ammo stacks 1,000.  Change combines to make 1,000 for handcrafted and the new Bone arrows need to make 20,000 per combine minimum to be in line with the food, drink and potion combines from the research assistants.

PS ~ Crafter Dev needs to look at the new mob drop craft items and receipts.  Fix things like the arrows being listed on the Bone Shard item but that items not in the receipt.  And the arrow not listed on the Mag Horns which are in the receipt.  I've heard there are other items where this is screwed up also.

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Old 05-25-2012, 11:18 PM   #62
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You could even have a quest or make it a new tradeskll item. Whatever works, but have an item simular to a potion that an alchemist makes where it has ammo conversion as the effect instead of wasting an adornment.

So for example the ranger could do a quest from his/her home city and the reward would be an unlimited potion that gives 40% - 60% ammo conversion or whatever would work best. This quest could be just for rangers, while an alchemist via potions or Woodworker via a totem could also give ammo conversion instead of it being on an adornment.

You could Rangers a new ability to that when the mob dies it gives a percentage to get the amount of arrows used back.

The ability could be an until canceled where when a mob dies will give the ranger a chance to get back 35% - 75% of the arrows used. (Numbers could be anything)

This of course is just one idea. I have seen several other good ones too. Like making it a consumable like food/drink.

You could make the stacks larger like 1000 per stack and then increase the combine to also be 1000 per crafting combine.

Those were a couple of the good ones I saw.

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Old 05-26-2012, 12:46 PM   #63
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Yeah, rangers use a crazy ammount of ammo, but everyone else is struggling to keep their ammo supply up.It all comes down to this:

Scouts/fighters have had to sink plat and time into their ranged DPS over the past 7 years. Then add in the cost of poisons on top of that for some of the scout classes. 

Mages/priests just get their ranged DPS automatically by mashing buttons without having to consume anything that costs them plat and takes time to make while crafting.

Endless quivers/sacks needed to happen 7+ years ago. "Apply various types of poisons" should be an click of an ability, and not come a poison vial. Rift did it right by not requiring us to carry around stacks of ammo and various types of poisons.

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Old 05-26-2012, 03:41 PM   #64
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When I started bringing this topic up a lot on the official forums I was actually getting tells and 'thanks' for keeping it up. Most of those people played scouts other than rangers.

Rift also did it right when it comes to consumables they do use. There aren't some classes that need to use consumables to play the fullest and some don't. For every type of consumable, there is a version for every class. It is evenly distributed.

As the recent auto attack change has shown us, it seems the only way we will get ammo grievances dealt with is AT LEAST half the classes in the game see it as a problem.

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Old 05-27-2012, 09:21 PM   #65
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Two possible solutions:

Every autoattack cycle should use one arrow (or whatever) regardless of procs, multi attacks, fluries, ae autoattacks, etc.

Or make arrows last for a duration, like food/drink.  As long as the stack of arrows hasn't run out of its timer, you can fire your bow.  There's no need to count the individual pieces of ammo.

In contrast, I think warcraft just removed ammo entirely, and eq1 gave rangers the ability to remove ammo consumption entirely, but those take out a component of the crafting game.

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Old 05-27-2012, 09:28 PM   #66
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[email protected] wrote:

In contrast, I think warcraft just removed ammo entirely, and eq1 gave rangers the ability to remove ammo consumption entirely, but those take out a component of the crafting game.

EQ1 does it backwards if I remmeber correctly. There CA equivilents take arrows but auto attack does not.

Most other fantasy MMO's don't bother with ammo anymore. WoW, Rift, GW, TERA, LOTRO, AoC.

I wish they would just broaden crafting classes to how they work for these apprentices. Outfitter, scholar and craftsman.

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Old 06-03-2012, 07:03 PM   #67
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[email protected] wrote:

Every autoattack cycle should use one arrow (or whatever) regardless of procs, multi attacks, fluries, ae autoattacks, etc.

^ this. Do something to fix our ammo consumption sony

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Old 06-04-2012, 04:48 AM   #68
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The have fixed your ammo use. You just choose not to use it, as you want to maximise dps. 

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Old 06-04-2012, 06:48 PM   #69
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[email protected] wrote:

The have fixed your ammo use. You just choose not to use it, as you want to maximise dps. 

That's like saying the solution for a tank class doing terrible DPS compared to other tanks is to replace their tank gear with DPS gear. Sacrificing one thing to fix another when others of the same role don't have to isn't a fix, its an imbalance.

There is no equivilent others have to pay to 'maximise' DPS. A true fix would be much less to zero arrow use without a hit in DPS. That or some consumable mages and priests have to use to attack at range.

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Old 06-05-2012, 03:44 AM   #70
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[email protected] Bazaar wrote:

[email protected] wrote:

Every autoattack cycle should use one arrow (or whatever) regardless of procs, multi attacks, fluries, ae autoattacks, etc.

^ this. Do something to fix our ammo consumption sony

Been Pushing this idea for years , it would probibly be the easiest to code their end , more than consumables defined by time etc. etc. 

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Old 06-05-2012, 06:40 PM   #71
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[email protected] wrote:

[email protected] Bazaar wrote:

[email protected] wrote:

Every autoattack cycle should use one arrow (or whatever) regardless of procs, multi attacks, fluries, ae autoattacks, etc.

^ this. Do something to fix our ammo consumption sony

Been Pushing this idea for years , it would probibly be the easiest to code their end , more than consumables defined by time etc. etc. 

Would be easy and i'd love it. But i figured if they were dead set on making ammo get consumed at this rate they could at least increase the yields on the recipes as well. All they did was make handcrafted make 200 instead of 100, which they should have done when they changed stacks to be 200 way back.

The fact that are so many viable solutions in this very thread alone by several different people proves that this needs some sort of solution. If people were struggling with thinking of good ideas it would be different, but there are at least 5 really good ones.

Something doesn't get this many good solutions when it's working perfectly.

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Old 06-28-2012, 03:42 PM   #72
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/bump

/memo to tradeskill dev

1 Maligonian Horn = 100 food/drink @ 2.5 hours (5 hours with house item) = 250 - 500 hours of game time

1 wurm tongue, 1 wyvern stinger, 1 bone golem shard = 100 Potions @ 4 hours = 400 hours of game time

2 maligonian horns = 2,000 arrows = 1-2 hours of game time (running instances, grinding, raiding)

See a problem?  Everyone else does.

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Old 06-28-2012, 04:11 PM   #73
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[email protected]_old wrote:

Mages/priests just get their ranged DPS automatically by mashing buttons without having to consume anything that costs them plat and takes time to make while crafting.

I'd suggest creating caster ammo something like 'essence of magic' and give the recipies to sages to even out the ammo issue.

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Old 06-28-2012, 06:43 PM   #74
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While that might be approaching fair, even though they would use much less ammo, I don't think that is a good idea.

I wish they would at least copy/paste the Dragon Bone Arrow recipe, tweak it for the handcrafted arrows so you can make 2k at a time.

Crychtonn wrote:

/bump

/memo to tradeskill dev

1 Maligonian Horn = 100 food/drink @ 2.5 hours (5 hours with house item) = 250 - 500 hours of game time

1 wurm tongue, 1 wyvern stinger, 1 bone golem shard = 100 Potions @ 4 hours = 400 hours of game time

2 maligonian horns = 2,000 arrows = 1-2 hours of game time (running instances, grinding, raiding)

See a problem?  Everyone else does.

Indeed.

I'm all for consumables and what they bring in a MMO. I recognize they bring a plat sink, steady work for more casual players, people who like to craft, encourage players to reach out to other players for resources, etc.

What I don't like is some classes either having to use certain consumables while others don't, or using WAY MORE than anyone else.

Imagine if only mages needed to buy drink for power or else they would NEVER have a way to use their spells. Or if only fighters had to repeatedly repair their armor without even dying just because they are tanking. Or if priests couldn't heal except for a few sub-par heals unless they were constantly consuming some buff potion. These are ridiculous and unnecessary, and so is requiring a consumable only a few classes need to function fully, like arrows.

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Old 06-28-2012, 10:20 PM   #75
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[email protected] wrote:

While that might be approaching fair, even though they would use much less ammo, I don't think that is a good idea.

I wish they would at least copy/paste the Dragon Bone Arrow recipe, tweak it for the handcrafted arrows so you can make 2k at a time.

While i agree with you i'm not holding my breath over it. so the next best thing we can do is offer other ideas related to ammo so if they dont do what we primarily want they have other options to apease us (to a lesser degree).

if they are so set on having a rare recipe for arrows they should at the very least make all handcrafted arrows 500 per craft then add some mastercrafted arrows at 1000 that use standard rares and leave the dragon bone arrows as they are.

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Old 09-24-2012, 12:18 AM   #76
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Just a FYI, Final Fantasy XIV is adding itself to the list of MMO's updating their system and getting rid of arrows even though they used to have them and were primarily crafted by players.

Just sayin'

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Old 09-24-2012, 01:31 PM   #77
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one arrow should be consummed per swing or the "food" like ammo would work too.   it's getting pretty dumb as far as range ammo goes.

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Old 09-24-2012, 02:00 PM   #78
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[email protected] wrote:

Tradeskills are in a very broken state at the moment and scouts / fighters needing arrows is one of the last interdependancies left in this game from it's original design. 

Apparently, you missed the OP's very clear statement that he has no such "interdependencies," because he makes his own arrows. That "interdependency" also makes a much bigger difference when you don't have umpteen 92 crafters of your own, & your only "interdependency" is with your own characters on your own account.

"Interdependency" is a red herring counter-argument. I'd like to think you can do better, though judging by your subsequent post & Neiloch's pure ownage response ........

I'm mostly a soloist, not a raider at all, not even a Ranger, & I give the OP  in endorsement. 

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Old 09-25-2012, 02:50 PM   #79
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I didn't read through this whole thread, so I apologize ahead of time if someone already suggested this.

I think it would be ideal if there was just one arrow that represented all the arrows you carry.  If it's going to be a dragonbone whatever of pierced whatevers, you would get one made (or dropped, I suppose) and equip it in your ranged ammo slot.  All attacks would assume to use that arrow infinitely until you replace or upgrade it.

In this manner crafters can still make money making one item, just like weaponsmiths and sages do now, and ranged attackers would only have to pay one higher price for infinite useage.

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Old 09-25-2012, 03:37 PM   #80
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You are suggesting 'Endless Quiver' an eq1 AA option for rangers. 

Its a viable sollution providing its available to all classes.  I don't really care what is done, other than something needs to be done.

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Old 09-25-2012, 09:26 PM   #81
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1. Bigger quivers. 2. Bigger stacks of arrows. 3. More arrows per higher-tier combine. ??? Profit. I like arrows, knives, shurikens, etc. I like consuming them. It makes it feel real. It'd be like taking away ammunition from COD. It makes sense if you are "multi attacking" that your ammunition is consumed for each "hit". Just feels right to me. I know it's a fantasy game, but a Ranger with infinite arrows is absurdly unrealistic. I'll get off the soapbox, though... All that aside, if mechanics are left alone, the above list would make (almost) everyone happy, I think. At level 92, gimme stacks of 500-1k, 44 slot quivers, and combines of 2-4k.
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Old 09-25-2012, 11:00 PM   #82
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I think the best idea is time based like food and drink. Make the ammo conservation buffs already in game into extensions of the time. Quivers still hold the arrows, so you can hold 30 or more time based arrow stacks if you want. Maybe then we can choose which arrows we use based on the encounter... +accuracy/hit bonus, +slashing, +crushing, +heat, +ice, etc
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Old 09-26-2012, 09:48 AM   #83
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zehly wrote:

1. Bigger quivers. 2. Bigger stacks of arrows. 3. More arrows per higher-tier combine. ??? Profit. I like arrows, knives, shurikens, etc. I like consuming them. It makes it feel real. It'd be like taking away ammunition from COD. It makes sense if you are "multi attacking" that your ammunition is consumed for each "hit". Just feels right to me. I know it's a fantasy game, but a Ranger with infinite arrows is absurdly unrealistic. I'll get off the soapbox, though... All that aside, if mechanics are left alone, the above list would make (almost) everyone happy, I think. At level 92, gimme stacks of 500-1k, 44 slot quivers, and combines of 2-4k.

1)been done before quivers are large enough already, bandaid fix not solving the core problem.

2)been done before arrow stack increased from 100>200 again a bandaid fix only increases capacity production time is unchanged and as boring as usual

3)see T10 arrow recipies (normal and adv) normal recipies now produce 200 per combine, targeting the real problem of arrow production being the boring downtime when a woodworker-range  has to refil his/her supply of 2K or more arrows which have been used up during the day.

With the change to production amounts in T10 it is better then it was. making 200 arrows or more now takes half the time to produce.

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Old 09-26-2012, 11:01 AM   #84
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zehly wrote:

I like arrows, knives, shurikens, etc. I like consuming them. It makes it feel real. So many things wrong with this. Makes it feel real? Yeah being able to fully and effectively shoot about 10 arrows at once every 4 seconds really makes me feel the realism, archers do that all the time. Same goes for melee weapons btw. It'd be like taking away ammunition from COD. It makes sense if you are "multi attacking" that your ammunition is consumed for each "hit". Just feels right to me.  Comparing it to COD is just silly. there is no sense of urgency or suspense in EQ2 when it comes to managing ammo or the damage it puts out compared to COD. Maybe if I could kill Commanders with 2 well placed shots and could only carry 10-20 arrows at a time. I know it's a fantasy game, but a Ranger with infinite arrows is absurdly unrealistic. Again, compared to people fighting huge dragons, summoning the elements and undead, teleporting, etc, etc and people not having to refill ammo is the 'absurdly unrealistic' scenario... I'll get off the soapbox, though... 

I'm half-expecting a 'lol i was just trollin bro' reply after this. Any argument from realism had little basis when EQ2 came out and definitely has MUCH less now. Realism at the cost of fun in a video game is what's absurd.

Increasing production amounts significantly is the LEAST they could do. The fact they haven't done it yet leads me to believe there is some chart or formula somewhere telling them that would be 'unbalanced.' I suspect most of the developers don't play the game in any significant capacity so they can't even make a judgement call, they just have to trust 'the numbers.'

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Old 09-26-2012, 11:06 AM   #85
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The irony of all this??? Mages were complaining about not having ranged autoattack... they got it AND they don't need to use ammo or even power when it fires off?!?! At the very least it should eat up decent amounts of power to compensate for the fact they can use it without ammo.

Like a poster above me said, a preset bundle of arrows would be a smarter idea for crafting. Instead of stacks you can make varying size bundles. This will lower crafting time as bundles would hold many more arrows, perhaps 1000 per craft. The crafting process would still consume the same amount of material as is needed now for that many. The lowered crafting time would also drop prices on the broker, probably dramatically.

This would also open the way for arrows to be crafted with special properties without being so expensive to buy and craft. IE on hit, this arrow will explode causing x amount of damage in "x meter" radius. Or arrow will stun target etc. I am not sure why they never added those properties to arrows. This would also make it so perhaps rangers could have exclusive access to some of the best ammo in game. Making the Ranger class unique in that sense.

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Old 10-03-2012, 10:48 PM   #86
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Only thing good that came out of casters getting that ranged auto was that they FINALLY put in a auto attack mode selection system. Maybe later that ranged auto will actually start drawing some attention for caster DPS.

Rift did a good job giving marksman class multiple ammo types, really it was just a proc off ranged attack buff since they don't have ammo though. But there were a few types and that brought a bit of utility to the whole thing. Damage proc, heal/life tap, armor penetration, and a debuff to cause the target to take 2% (max 10 stacks) more damage. If we had EXCLUSIVE access to these special types ammo could at least START being justified even though Rift still doesn't use ammo.

Even Vanguard gave rangers EXCLUSIVE access to the best arrows in the game, and the rangers made them as a class skill. with foraged items. for free.

I don't think there is a current generation game with a ammo system as bad as EQ2's, if they bother with ammo at all. I would have to reach back to the likes of UO, EQ1, AC or DAOC to find examples that even remotely resemble the EQ2 system and from what I know of those others games, theirs are better.

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Old 10-04-2012, 07:03 PM   #87
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Eq1 did give just rangers the 'endless quiver' but virtually no one else in EQ1 used arrows. my paladin had several arrow ranged spells to pull with. so did SKs. Warriors used arrows but only on pulling. there were virtually NO ranged fights. Ever. even in raiding.

but you realize the real thing that will happen is just going to be that MA will no longer effect ranged attacks. that will be the fastest, and easiest way of lessening your arrow consumption then making up new code to make an endless quiver or reworking the combines to triple or quadruple the amount made.

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Old 10-04-2012, 07:43 PM   #88
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[email protected] wrote:

but you realize the real thing that will happen is just going to be that MA will no longer effect ranged attacks. that will be the fastest, and easiest way of lessening your arrow consumption then making up new code to make an endless quiver or reworking the combines to triple or quadruple the amount made.

What gave you the silly notion that they would do that? it's not a fix, that's what we call a nerf to scouts.

All they need to do is keep up with the increased arrows produced per combine like they did with the T10 recipes.

as for making an endless quiver i dont think we are qaulified to say how easy or hard it might be to do.

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Old 10-04-2012, 08:29 PM   #89
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General_Info wrote:

[email protected] wrote:

but you realize the real thing that will happen is just going to be that MA will no longer effect ranged attacks. that will be the fastest, and easiest way of lessening your arrow consumption then making up new code to make an endless quiver or reworking the combines to triple or quadruple the amount made.

What gave you the silly notion that they would do that? it's not a fix, that's what we call a nerf to scouts.

All they need to do is keep up with the increased arrows produced per combine like they did with the T10 recipes.

as for making an endless quiver i dont think we are qaulified to say how easy or hard it might be to do.

You can do it now with adorns. I got 10 ammo conservation from AA so if I slapped on 6 red ammo conservation adorns (15 each) boom, player made 'endless quiver.' Thing is I would lose about 18 crit bonus in the process. I could use less and make it 'intermittent' in combination with my 60% ammo con myth proc. If for whatever reason I was hard up for plat I would probably do it so I didn't have to get horns constantly for dragon arrows. So I would think it would be easy enough to make some effect that just applies 100 ammo conservation.

Getting, paying and managing my ammo isn't a problem though, its just being used in absurd quantities. It's comical really. It's just this annoying little thing that does nothing to improve anyones quality of play.

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