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Old 04-05-2011, 02:57 PM   #61
Raahl

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Wasuna wrote:

No, I posted population numbers and asked for balance. If your an unhappy crusader then I'm sorry. Hope you enjoyed it while you had it, and from what I see, crusaders didn't really lose much, just didn't get any offensive itemization. From the little I have seen things look decently balanced but I haven't raided yet in the expansion.

This is about bards. There is a clear disparity and even the dirges here know it. I have a solution already. I quit playing my Troubador. I'm just here to lend moral support for the Troubadors.

How does "nerfing" the Dirges make your Troubador fun to play again?

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Old 04-05-2011, 03:18 PM   #62
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Raahl wrote:

Wasuna wrote:

No, I posted population numbers and asked for balance. If your an unhappy crusader then I'm sorry. Hope you enjoyed it while you had it, and from what I see, crusaders didn't really lose much, just didn't get any offensive itemization. From the little I have seen things look decently balanced but I haven't raided yet in the expansion.

This is about bards. There is a clear disparity and even the dirges here know it. I have a solution already. I quit playing my Troubador. I'm just here to lend moral support for the Troubadors.

How does "nerfing" the Dirges make your Troubador fun to play again?

It doesn't and he doesn't care... there is always two ways to balance things... make both things equally strong or equally weak.

Wasuna is only happy if its the latter.

And the old "the dirges know" blah blah blah is BS. All the dirges know is that they are having fun playing. And most of them wish the same for the Troubies.

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Old 04-05-2011, 05:42 PM   #63
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You two are full of BS. I never said nerf crusaders and I never said nerf Dirges. I said the classes should be balanced and SoE has to figure that out.

You are the ones that are crying nerf becasue you know that SoE will lean that way from past experiance. I hate nerfs as they kill enthuasiam for the game. That being said, balance is required.

If you don't want to be nerfed then you figure out how to balance bards. Like I said, I figured out my solution to the problem.

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Old 04-05-2011, 06:59 PM   #64
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guess they just killed this topic....

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Old 04-05-2011, 08:48 PM   #65
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Last post here in troub forums, march 25th. Awesome, nice place to put it.

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Old 04-05-2011, 11:15 PM   #66
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Wasuna wrote:

You two are full of BS. I never said nerf crusaders and I never said nerf Dirges. I said the classes should be balanced and SoE has to figure that out.

You are the ones that are crying nerf becasue you know that SoE will lean that way from past experiance. I hate nerfs as they kill enthuasiam for the game. That being said, balance is required.

If you don't want to be nerfed then you figure out how to balance bards. Like I said, I figured out my solution to the problem.

You never said nerf Dirges?  What would you call what you posted below?

Wasuna wrote:

What your saying in this comment is that the Troubador buff is wrong and the Dirge buff is OK. In general I agree but bards bring to much to the table to even be in the same playing field as T1 DPS. I don't like nerfs at all but Dirges do WAY to much DPS for all the buffs and benefits they bring to a group/raid.

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Old 04-05-2011, 11:38 PM   #67
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Wurm wrote:

Lethe5683 wrote:

Wurm wrote:

[email protected] Bayle wrote:

I'm not very happy with this thread because it will end up getting dirges nerfed instead of troubadors buffed.

Yep, because like I said in another recent thread, if you want something for your class fixed, don't compare it to another classe's ability and whine.

SOE has proven over and over and over again that they would rather nerf than fix. 

So all anyone ever does by complaining about something they have, in comparasion to something someone else has, is get the other person's ability nerfed.

You'd think people would have figured that out by now, but aparently not.

Better they nerf dirges then than do nothing at all, although I would greatly prefer that the troub myth buff just gets made more useful.

You once again prove that you're a nerfherder... WTG!

You once again prove that you have no common sense... WTG!

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Old 04-06-2011, 12:13 AM   #68
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Note:  These are not my parses so I cannot answer any questions about group setup and other variables.

Troubador: 

Dirge:

Both had nearly the same to hit and crit percentages.  But the Dirge had 2.38 times more swings than the dirge did.  Was this because of the group setup or possibly the weapon delay?

Taking the average melee attack damage of the Troubador and adding the extra hits that the dirge has they would have been an extra ~3,010,552 points of damage.   This would give then a total damage for melee of ~5,169,953.

Compare that to the Dirges 5,714,246?   Very close.  So if the Troubador had as many swings, they'd be virtually the same. 

Group haste buffs?  Less Multi-attack?   Looking at my Dirge my buffs provide 30% MA and 0 Haste.  15% of that is Blade Chime which more often is on the Assassin of the group.

Compare the average melee hits.  Dirge 17,421.48 to Troubador 15,762.05, Again pretty close.   I don't see a earth shatterign disparity in the average melee hit.   

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Old 04-06-2011, 01:26 AM   #69
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Lets just sit here for a moment and lolz at these parses. Im pretty sure you guys can tell which one is the dirge and which one is the troub.

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Old 04-06-2011, 04:09 AM   #70
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Lethe5683 wrote:

Wurm wrote:

Lethe5683 wrote:

Wurm wrote:

[email protected] Bayle wrote:

I'm not very happy with this thread because it will end up getting dirges nerfed instead of troubadors buffed.

Yep, because like I said in another recent thread, if you want something for your class fixed, don't compare it to another classe's ability and whine.

SOE has proven over and over and over again that they would rather nerf than fix. 

So all anyone ever does by complaining about something they have, in comparasion to something someone else has, is get the other person's ability nerfed.

You'd think people would have figured that out by now, but aparently not.

Better they nerf dirges then than do nothing at all, although I would greatly prefer that the troub myth buff just gets made more useful.

You once again prove that you're a nerfherder... WTG!

You once again prove that you have no common sense... WTG!

Quite a bit more common sense than you tbh.

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Old 04-06-2011, 10:07 AM   #71
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iwillbackhand wrote:

Lets just sit here for a moment and lolz at these parses. Im pretty sure you guys can tell which one is the dirge and which one is the troub.

So if the Troubador hit the extra 650 time the Dirge did their additional damage would be 7,946,250.  Bringing their total to 11,292,324.  A little less than what the Dirge did.  Raising their Ext DPS on their melee attack to 78967.30 DPS for their fight. 

Now if the fight was the same duration as the Dirges was, because of added DPS.  Their DPS for the melee would be 94893.47 DPS.  Very close to that of the Dirge.

But here's the problem.  The Median is not Average so, this may make the additional damage more or less. 

The Troubador has the same issue that was in my example.  He swings a lot less.  Again is this because of group buffs that increase Haste or MA? 

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Old 04-06-2011, 10:34 AM   #72
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BTW, both Dirges and Troubadors are nowhere near T1 DPS. 

Assassins/Wizards are parsing 230,000+ on that same mob.

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Old 04-06-2011, 11:09 AM   #73
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Raahl wrote:

Wasuna wrote:

What your saying in this comment is that the Troubador buff is wrong and the Dirge buff is OK. In general I agree but bards bring to much to the table to even be in the same playing field as T1 DPS. I don't like nerfs at all but Dirges do WAY to much DPS for all the buffs and benefits they bring to a group/raid.

That was a defination of the problem and a bow to the fact that SoE would probably see the need for a nerf and not a buff.. that is assuming they do anything at all.

If you don't want nerfed then you fix the problem. My solution is to not play my Troubador since he is an alt and not my main.

My guess is that SoE will do absolutly nothing since they haven't looked at this population disparity for years already with no comment.

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Old 04-06-2011, 11:15 AM   #74
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Raahl wrote:

So if the Troubador hit the extra 650 time the Dirge did their additional damage would be 7,946,250.  Bringing their total to 11,292,324.  A little less than what the Dirge did.  Raising their Ext DPS on their melee attack to 78967.30 DPS for their fight. 

Now if the fight was the same duration as the Dirges was, because of added DPS.  Their DPS for the melee would be 94893.47 DPS.  Very close to that of the Dirge.

But here's the problem.  The Median is not Average so, this may make the additional damage more or less. 

The Troubador has the same issue that was in my example.  He swings a lot less.  Again is this because of group buffs that increase Haste or MA? 

BS again. DPS is defined as Damage Per Second so that it can be compared directly to corresponding numbers for different fights of different length. If the Troubadors fight was the same length as the Dirges then their DPS numbers would be exactly the same.

If your so worried about a nerf then quit trying to deflect the issue and solve the problem. If Troubadors get buffed I might play mine and see how it goes. If dirges get a nerf or nothing happens I will continue to not play my Troubador so I don't really care what the solution is.

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Old 04-06-2011, 11:33 AM   #75
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Wurm wrote:

My problem with this thread is both classes bring things to the table the other doesn't.

Bard DPs is right about where it should be this expansion and the dirge doesn't need a nerf, the troub needs a buff.

One of our dirges is consistently top 5 now, because he has over 400MA in raids.  He can't be wizards, assassins, swashes or locks very often but he usually blows away everyone else and frequently doubles up our troubs.

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Old 04-06-2011, 11:34 AM   #76
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Wasuna wrote:

Raahl wrote:

So if the Troubador hit the extra 650 time the Dirge did their additional damage would be 7,946,250.  Bringing their total to 11,292,324.  A little less than what the Dirge did.  Raising their Ext DPS on their melee attack to 78967.30 DPS for their fight. 

Now if the fight was the same duration as the Dirges was, because of added DPS.  Their DPS for the melee would be 94893.47 DPS.  Very close to that of the Dirge.

But here's the problem.  The Median is not Average so, this may make the additional damage more or less. 

The Troubador has the same issue that was in my example.  He swings a lot less.  Again is this because of group buffs that increase Haste or MA? 

BS again. DPS is defined as Damage Per Second so that it can be compared directly to corresponding numbers for different fights of different length. If the Troubadors fight was the same length as the Dirges then their DPS numbers would be exactly the same.

If your so worried about a nerf then quit trying to deflect the issue and solve the problem. If Troubadors get buffed I might play mine and see how it goes. If dirges get a nerf or nothing happens I will continue to not play my Troubador so I don't really care what the solution is.

You are the one pilling on the BS here Wasuna.  I'm attempting to identify what the true issue is as to why Troubadors are parsing less.   Where you only seem to want to bring negative solutions.

Do you dispute the issue seems to be the number of swings?  If so, back it up with facts.

I'm deflecting and not trying to solve the issue?  That's a laugh. 

Like you said, you don't care.  So why are you here?  You never answered why nerfing Dirges would make your Troubador fun to play again.  Guess you know it won't and that we'd have unhappy Troubadors and Dirges.

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Old 04-06-2011, 11:37 AM   #77
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Gaige wrote:

Wurm wrote:

My problem with this thread is both classes bring things to the table the other doesn't.

Bard DPs is right about where it should be this expansion and the dirge doesn't need a nerf, the troub needs a buff.

One of our dirges is consistently top 5 now, because he has over 400MA in raids.  He can't be wizards, assassins, swashes or locks very often but he usually blows away everyone else and frequently doubles up our troubs.

Thanks for the info Gaige.  It would be interesting to find out the Haste and MA of both your Dirge and Troubador.  Along with parses of both on the same mob. 

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Old 04-06-2011, 11:50 AM   #78
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Raahl wrote:

Thanks for the info Gaige.  It would be interesting to find out the Haste and MA of both your Dirge and Troubador.  Along with parses of both on the same mob. 

Buffrat's parses are easy to find.  Our troubs might be a little harder though =x

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Old 04-06-2011, 11:56 AM   #79
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Gaige wrote:

Wurm wrote:

My problem with this thread is both classes bring things to the table the other doesn't.

Bard DPs is right about where it should be this expansion and the dirge doesn't need a nerf, the troub needs a buff.

One of our dirges is consistently top 5 now, because he has over 400MA in raids.  He can't be wizards, assassins, swashes or locks very often but he usually blows away everyone else and frequently doubles up our troubs.

How is Buffrat's gear compared to the troubs in your guild? Are they all about on the same level?

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Old 04-06-2011, 12:01 PM   #80
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Gaige wrote:

Raahl wrote:

Thanks for the info Gaige.  It would be interesting to find out the Haste and MA of both your Dirge and Troubador.  Along with parses of both on the same mob. 

Buffrat's parses are easy to find.  Our troubs might be a little harder though =x

I suspected it was Buffrat.

Wurm wrote:

Gaige wrote:

Wurm wrote:

My problem with this thread is both classes bring things to the table the other doesn't.

Bard DPs is right about where it should be this expansion and the dirge doesn't need a nerf, the troub needs a buff.

One of our dirges is consistently top 5 now, because he has over 400MA in raids.  He can't be wizards, assassins, swashes or locks very often but he usually blows away everyone else and frequently doubles up our troubs.

How is Buffrat's gear compared to the troubs in your guild? Are they all about on the same level?

I'd be more interested in seeing just what their stats are.   This would give a more diffinitive comparison.

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Old 04-06-2011, 12:05 PM   #81
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Wurm wrote:

How is Buffrat's gear compared to the troubs in your guild? Are they all about on the same level?

We're all pretty close I think.  Two HM pieces, most of the EM pieces, most of the EM jewelery, new DoV weapons/bows.  For the most part.

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Old 04-06-2011, 12:07 PM   #82
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If you could post or email me one of the parses for both that would be great Gaige.

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Old 04-06-2011, 12:13 PM   #83
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We're doing everything tonight so if I remember I will sir.

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Old 04-06-2011, 12:19 PM   #84
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Gaige wrote:

We're doing everything tonight so if I remember I will sir.

Thanks.  SMILEY  Have fun storming the castle.

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Old 04-06-2011, 01:15 PM   #85
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Raahl wrote:

You are the one pilling on the BS here Wasuna.  I'm attempting to identify what the true issue is as to why Troubadors are parsing less.   Where you only seem to want to bring negative solutions.

Do you dispute the issue seems to be the number of swings?  If so, back it up with facts.

I'm deflecting and not trying to solve the issue?  That's a laugh. 

Like you said, you don't care.  So why are you here?  You never answered why nerfing Dirges would make your Troubador fun to play again.  Guess you know it won't and that we'd have unhappy Troubadors and Dirges.

Yes, your comments are BS. Gaige came here and refenced DPS and you thanked him and yet you didn't like the numbers provided above which show EXACTLLY what Gaige said they see in their raid. Gaige said he'd provide the numebrs from their next raid to demonstrate the DPS disparity and again you thanked him?

Yes, I 100% dispute that the disparity is the number of swings. DPS is DPS. The dirge could be using 4 second weapons and the Troubador could be using 6 second weapons. I don't know and that is why the term.... DPS .... is used. The only thing I would agree with is if you had an expanded parse of both of the classe and removed 3rd party procing dps from the mix. After that your own abilities and gear is all that matters and that is.. once again.. DPS.

I do agree that the parses of the dirge and troubador in the same fight at the same time will be very telling and I look forward to Gaiges post. I don't expect it to be any different than what has already been shown but it will provide a bigger and more accurate information base.

Finally, I'm here becasue I can't stand hypocrisy and probably more so becasue I can't stand to pass up a good fight.

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Old 04-06-2011, 03:05 PM   #86
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Wasuna wrote:

Yes, your comments are BS. Gaige came here and refenced DPS and you thanked him and yet you didn't like the numbers provided above which show EXACTLLY what Gaige said they see in their raid. Gaige said he'd provide the numebrs from their next raid to demonstrate the DPS disparity and again you thanked him?

Gaige pointed out that there is a DPS disparity.  I have not argued that there isn't a disparity, just that you are barking up the wrong tree when you try and blame it on the mythical buff.  Sure changing the Troubadors myth buff could go a long way to solving some of the disparity.

Wasuna wrote:

Yes, I 100% dispute that the disparity is the number of swings. DPS is DPS. The dirge could be using 4 second weapons and the Troubador could be using 6 second weapons. I don't know and that is why the term.... DPS .... is used. The only thing I would agree with is if you had an expanded parse of both of the classe and removed 3rd party procing dps from the mix. After that your own abilities and gear is all that matters and that is.. once again.. DPS.

Show me different in the supplied parses where the disparity lies.  The parses show a serious disparity in the number of swings between the two bard classes.   Finding a way to bring the troubadors swing count up would bring them 90% of the way towards removing the disparity and bringing DPS up to that of the Dirges.

Wasuna wrote:

I do agree that the parses of the dirge and troubador in the same fight at the same time will be very telling and I look forward to Gaiges post. I don't expect it to be any different than what has already been shown but it will provide a bigger and more accurate information base.

Finally we can agree, I too believe these parses would be very telling.  I too don't expect to see anything different.  The Dirge will parse more because they swing more.

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Old 04-06-2011, 03:20 PM   #87
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Yeah because nerfing things because of what happens in raiding makes most of your customers happy... 

Fix the Troubs and leave the Dirges the hell alone.

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Old 04-06-2011, 03:53 PM   #88
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Raahl wrote:

Note:  These are not my parses so I cannot answer any questions about group setup and other variables.

Troubador: 

Dirge:

Both had nearly the same to hit and crit percentages.  But the Dirge had 2.38 times more swings than the dirge did.  Was this because of the group setup or possibly the weapon delay?

Taking the average melee attack damage of the Troubador and adding the extra hits that the dirge has they would have been an extra ~3,010,552 points of damage.   This would give then a total damage for melee of ~5,169,953.

Compare that to the Dirges 5,714,246?   Very close.  So if the Troubador had as many swings, they'd be virtually the same. 

Group haste buffs?  Less Multi-attack?   Looking at my Dirge my buffs provide 30% MA and 0 Haste.  15% of that is Blade Chime which more often is on the Assassin of the group.

Compare the average melee hits.  Dirge 17,421.48 to Troubador 15,762.05, Again pretty close.   I don't see a earth shatterign disparity in the average melee hit.   

You guys see how much dps Ayonic Hymm put out on that fight? 517 dps.

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Old 04-06-2011, 05:00 PM   #89
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iwillbackhand wrote:

You guys see how much dps Ayonic Hymm put out on that fight? 517 dps.

That is pretty weak.  

Do you think changing the 15% Crit Chance to 15% Crit Bonus would help any?  In that parse the Troubador was Crit'ing pretty much 100% of the time.

Though I have no problem making it similar to the Dirge one.  Maybe Maximum spell damage for the duration?

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Old 04-06-2011, 05:15 PM   #90
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Raahl wrote:

Show me different in the supplied parses where the disparity lies.  The parses show a serious disparity in the number of swings between the two bard classes.   Finding a way to bring the troubadors swing count up would bring them 90% of the way towards removing the disparity and bringing DPS up to that of the Dirges.

The swing disparty is very close to what you would expect from a 4 second and 6 second weapon disparity. If you can see that then look at the max, min and average hit and you will see the exact impact of the dirge mythical buff as compared to the troubador one. The dirge average hit is 10% harder than the Troubador even though the Troubador is using slower, harder hitting weapons.

Also, the parses you pulled up form somewhere show a Troubador that is using a huge god ability to increase their VC and that has more group provided procs than the dirge parse shows so the actual individual DPS is even further skewed than you show. Those parses are from some unknown place and it doesn't even look like a reasonable comparision. The Troubadors raid killed that named 20% faster so I assume they had a significant gear advanatge while doing less DPS.

In the end I could care less where DPS is coming from. The two bards should be similar. I actually think the Troubador provides a bigger dps increase for their mage group than a dirge does for a melee group (but that is my opinion) so I wouldn't have an issue with a slight disparity but the reported 1.5-2 times is not acceptable. Once people get their reuse back up again the effective gap will widen again since UT and J-Cap will be less effective.

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