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Old 03-21-2008, 11:01 PM   #1
Tobann

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Oh happy day. Look in the recent update for test server and you will see a fix for our arrows, a hawk that doesnt  break stealth and a focus aim that buffs our whole group. If this all goes through it is a hapy day. I dont know who to thank for this, but good job whoever you are.Sorry Webin, your neat list may have to be revised.Buaf Befallen
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Old 03-21-2008, 11:06 PM   #2
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If the current version of the ranger "Fixes" goes live ranger DPS will suffer a drop.The new "fixes" are garbage as they are.The group buff from focus aim is nice, good luck finding a ranger to give it to you if this goes live as is.
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Old 03-21-2008, 11:13 PM   #3
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[email protected] wrote:
Oh happy day. Look in the recent update for test server and you will see a fix for our arrows, a hawk that doesnt  break stealth and a focus aim that buffs our whole group. If this all goes through it is a hapy day. I dont know who to thank for this, but good job whoever you are.Sorry Webin, your neat list may have to be revised.Buaf Befallen
http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/...topic_id=412228
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Old 03-22-2008, 01:35 AM   #4
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I hope this a April Fools joke, although it would be nice for a lvl 70 ranger.
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Old 03-22-2008, 05:04 AM   #5
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lol SHAFTED again someone write to the dev's tell em to put us out our misery and just remove the ranger class all together SMILEY.

Lvling monk atm and mainly use my Ranger for Farming and a lil PvP at this rate the only thjing he's gonna be good for is standing in Qeynos harbour looking cool and picking on Nathan Ironforge.

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Old 03-22-2008, 03:07 PM   #6
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WOWthat is straight up CRUELsony gets us to believe they are about to fix our class and then.... not....i guess i should have seen it coming
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Old 03-22-2008, 03:43 PM   #7
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[email protected] wrote:
Oh happy day. Look in the recent update for test server and you will see a fix for our arrows, a hawk that doesnt  break stealth and a focus aim that buffs our whole group. If this all goes through it is a hapy day. I dont know who to thank for this, but good job whoever you are.Sorry Webin, your neat list may have to be revised.Buaf Befallen
Looks like you have no clue to what really is going on. I suggest you check the test feedback forums and see how rangers are getting screwed.
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Old 03-22-2008, 04:26 PM   #8
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This is only Round 1 for Test, and I so hope it's going to get REVAMPED and this does not make it to live.... in words of Anekuh... FIX Ranger DPS!!!
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Old 03-22-2008, 04:44 PM   #9
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[email protected] Bayle wrote:
This is only Round 1 for Test, and I so hope it's going to get REVAMPED and this does not make it to live....in words of Anekuh...FIX Ranger DPS!!!
Given past performance, it's likely to go live as is...
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Old 03-23-2008, 01:39 AM   #10
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Question : whats about the recast timer ? I've read it sometimes that some recasts should be shortened, bur since everyone complains about the autoattack nobody said more about that. Personally i never liked to be so much an autoattack class (in t6 my autoattack was maybe max. 20% of my damage) , so if at least for grouping/solo the faster recast compensate for the arrow-"fix" i think i'm not that unhappy.

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Old 03-23-2008, 01:38 PM   #11
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From all the test/live CAs i looked at none the ranged ones changed at all cast/recast wise and i think only a few melee ones got sped up a very small amount.
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Old 03-24-2008, 03:38 PM   #12
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Wow..got excited at first. Now that I see what is going on in test it seems like just another slap in the face. I wish I knew which rangers DPS is doing fine compared to other classes as Aerelik is saying. Every group Im in Im in the middle for DPS. Im just a regular ranger with no special gear. Maybe the high end folks are doing better. I hope so.Buaf
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Old 03-24-2008, 04:42 PM   #13
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[email protected] wrote:
Wow..got excited at first. Now that I see what is going on in test it seems like just another slap in the face. I wish I knew which rangers DPS is doing fine compared to other classes as Aerelik is saying. Every group Im in Im in the middle for DPS. Im just a regular ranger with no special gear. Maybe the high end folks are doing better. I hope so.Buaf
This is not an issue in solo/group settings. We do fine dps. However, we are not equal (or even close) dps wise in raid settings. Assassins dominate rangers every parse and that is a problem for our class.
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Old 03-24-2008, 05:44 PM   #14
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I got copied over to test and have been checking some things out.  Here is what I know so far (based on my toon, some of the % may vary for others):

  • All Melee Combat arts got a bump of about 6-8%.
  • Roped Shot and Blamed Arrow bumped about 6%.
  • Searing Shot got bumped about 12%.
  • Quick Shot (offensive stance proc) got bumped about 10%.
  • Coverage went from a 20.8% to a 25.6% damage increase (at M1).
  • None of the other Ranged CAs seemed to get changed.
  • The recast timer on all the CAs are the same, so I'm not sure what the "reuse speed" comment in the notes is about.
  • The hawk no longer breaks stealth.
  • Focus Aim got a group component that buffs group memebers hit% and increases crushing, piercing and slashing (piercing and slashing do not affect Rangers).
  • The ToHit% on arrows have been reduced.  field point are now 10%, bodkin are 0%, and broadhead are -10%
  • DT ammo is level 65 and therefore is no longer useful at level 80.  Not sure about EH ammo, it says level 70, but I didn't have any to test.
  • I have not yet been able to test the proc change (I can't get to the wall in KJ).
  • Bows Damage is artificially scaled down (more below).

Bow Damage Scaling

Taking a bow and a weapon with pretty close DR (81.5 on the weapon, and 86.4 on the bow), I equipped them both and did a /we.  This is pretty much what I got, but I added the Weapon Damage, Weapon Delay, Weapon DR (all directly off the weapon) and the Actual DR, which is a DR based on the Actual Damage and Actual Delay.  This was using no ammo for the bow. 

Primary:Name: Sebilite Croaking DirkWeapon Damage: 29 - 86Weapon Delay: 1.4Weapon DR: 81.5Base Damage: 35 - 105Actual Damage: 104 - 311Actual Delay: 0.8Actual DR: 518.75

Ranged:Name: Ancient Bow of the KnightWeapon Damage: 97 - 292Weapon Delay: 4.5Weapon DR: 86.4Base Damage: 119 - 358Actual Damage: 274 - 822Actual Delay 2.6Actual DR: 389.62

As you can see a melee weapon with a lower DR ends up having a significantly higher Actual DR than the Bow.  This change is just really unacceptable.  If they really need to lower bow damage (which I don't believe they do), they should change the damage on the bows themselves, not use some damage reduction behind the scenes.

Hopefully, I'll be able to get to the wall soon and get some parses.

Edit: Forgot the Coverage change

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Old 03-26-2008, 02:16 PM   #15
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Just read the test update form 3/25. Says the proc delay was tweaked and the damage modifier was adjusted. Anyone on test seen if this helps yet?Buaf
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Old 03-27-2008, 08:19 AM   #16
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the problem is the devs think rangers are fine and do T1 dmg. Some od us might do that (the best geared ones with best poisons etc and best bows, but i doubt that they are nr.1 either).so thats why they are nerfing the bow dmg, of course the PvP whining has nothing to do with tis also? (whiner nr1: "OMG THAT L33t Ranja just 1 shotted m3 with AUTOATTACK, P4wz, n3rf!!)

*shrug*I havent cencelled, yet, but i already subscribed to another game. Have fun SMILEY(still have SOME hopes, but... im 99% sure its all in for nothing, sigh)++Xan

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Old 03-31-2008, 02:52 AM   #17
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Anekuh wrote:
[email protected] wrote:This is not an issue in solo/group settings. We do fine dps. However, we are not equal (or even close) dps wise in raid settings. Assassins dominate rangers every parse and that is a problem for our class.

Well, that's what has been puzzling me.

In general, it makes sense that someone at melee range should out-damage someone who's at a distance, if their risk of taking damage is higher by being closer.  The amount of damage they receive as a function of total health, damage mitigation, etc. figures in too, of course.  That's part of the "risk" factor.  I'm assuming assassins and rangers are equivalent in that regard, and that rangers are at less risk.

From all the whining going on, I'm guessing that isn't true in a raid - that rangers and assassins are at equal risk?

If so, I can see how that could be a problem, but a fix that wouldn't make a solo/small group ranger over-powered doesn't seem easy. 

If rangers are at less risk of damage than assassins, then it isn't reasonable for rangers to expect to out-damage them.

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Old 03-31-2008, 05:39 AM   #18
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Tommara wrote:
Anekuh wrote:
[email protected] wrote:This is not an issue in solo/group settings. We do fine dps. However, we are not equal (or even close) dps wise in raid settings. Assassins dominate rangers every parse and that is a problem for our class.

Well, that's what has been puzzling me.

In general, it makes sense that someone at melee range should out-damage someone who's at a distance, if their risk of taking damage is higher by being closer.  The amount of damage they receive as a function of total health, damage mitigation, etc. figures in too, of course.  That's part of the "risk" factor.  I'm assuming assassins and rangers are equivalent in that regard, and that rangers are at less risk.

From all the whining going on, I'm guessing that isn't true in a raid - that rangers and assassins are at equal risk?

If so, I can see how that could be a problem, but a fix that wouldn't make a solo/small group ranger over-powered doesn't seem easy. 

If rangers are at less risk of damage than assassins, then it isn't reasonable for rangers to expect to out-damage them.

To some extend this COULD be true.

But this actually show a big misconception about rangers :

a/ To achieve our max DPS we have to be in  the famous "sweet spot" which is at mellee range our target mob. If that wasn't enough our mythical clearly show that we are supposed to be close to our target. So the "range to mob" is not an argument when it comes to comparing rangers and assassins.

b/ Now you could say that we could stay at range and still do some decent damage. That's true, if we have to be far from the mob, we lose less DPS than Assassin but there is no such things in T8, you have sometimes to joust AE and either rangers will joust to max out their DPS or won't joust and lose DPS. In all these scenarii, ranger DPS seems lower than Assassins DPS by around 25-50% depending on mobs, scropts, buffs etc. (basically, about 25% ZW in T1-T3 raids).

Edit : actual numbers have no importance and i only used the common numbers seen on the board and those i see when raiding. But if it was 10% or 75% the argument would be the same.

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Old 03-31-2008, 07:52 PM   #19
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Huugr wrote:

To some extend this COULD be true.

But this actually show a big misconception about rangers :

a/ To achieve our max DPS we have to be in  the famous "sweet spot" which is at mellee range our target mob. If that wasn't enough our mythical clearly show that we are supposed to be close to our target. So the "range to mob" is not an argument when it comes to comparing rangers and assassins.

b/ Now you could say that we could stay at range and still do some decent damage. That's true, if we have to be far from the mob, we lose less DPS than Assassin but there is no such things in T8, you have sometimes to joust AE and either rangers will joust to max out their DPS or won't joust and lose DPS. In all these scenarii, ranger DPS seems lower than Assassins DPS by around 25-50% depending on mobs, scropts, buffs etc. (basically, about 25% ZW in T1-T3 raids).

Edit : actual numbers have no importance and i only used the common numbers seen on the board and those i see when raiding. But if it was 10% or 75% the argument would be the same.

Part "a" appears to be related to some theoretical argument about the meaning of "range" in "ranger".  I wasn't referring to that at all, but rather about how rangers are implemented in EQ2, and so far, up to level 49, my ranger has been all about ranged damage using bow and arrows.  I can knock huge chunks of HP out of a mob before it reaches me.  My husband and I both play rangers, and the amount of damage we can do is pretty sick by ping-ponging the mobs between us, sometimes at little or no damage.  I understand that a lot of rangers kite (we don't), which is something you can only do well if you either do damage at range or do damage over time (necros).  Under those circumstances, it makes perfect sense that a pure melee class should out-damage us.

Part "b" appears to address my question.   If you can't stand at range (which also means less risk of damage), then any sacrifice we made in dps in order to be at range (and less risk of damage) is for nought.  That's the issue that needs to be addressed. 

In a somewhat related matter, I always play both a ranger/archer/hunter type and a priest type.  As a priest in WoW, it really ticked me off when people would display the results of dps parsers, crowing over their high numbers, when the whole time, it took everything I had to keep them standing, which put the whole raid at risk by diverting healing away from the tanks.  In the original EQ, any dps-er who did that would die like the fool they are with full approval of the rest of group/raid and usually accompanied by embarrassed apologies from the errant dps-er, but that really wasn't acceptable in WoW.  Whether the WoW method made any sense or not (i.e., WoW raiders might just have had lower expectations of dps classes than EQ), I dunno.  But in order to show the true dps picture, the amount healed (or some function thereof) needs to be substracted from dps parser results.  That is - dps parsers are bad.  They don't show the time you spend watching out for the healers (which any medium armor dps class seems best suited for).  DPS parsers don't show a person's true contribution to the team, it's all about "me".

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Old 04-01-2008, 12:41 AM   #20
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Ummm ever hear of the heal parse? We show that after each fight just like the dps parse..
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Old 04-01-2008, 01:06 AM   #21
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Thon'gian wrote:
Ummm ever hear of the heal parse? We show that after each fight just like the dps parse..

Of course.  Umm, you know parsers are different for each game, and that each game may have several different parsers?  And that some are better than others?  And that no parser I've seen truly reflects a player's contribution to the team, but rather encourages a "me beat the parser attitude" rather than "me do the best for the team, even if the parser doesn't give me credit for it".

I've never seen a parser that penalizes dps for hogging more than their share of healing though.  If you've got one that does, let me know the info on it so I can try it out.  I never bother with them anymore.  The one's I've seen show who's healed the most (which encourages over healing, and wasting mana/power), as well as some that show who's needed the most healing (tanks way at the top, doh).  Although there are some parsers that don't count the over-healed amount, the ones who do over heal will get more credit over time than the ones who saved mana for the tanks, and avoided a wipe every now and then.

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Old 04-01-2008, 02:11 AM   #22
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Interesting thread:

 http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/...topic_id=412927

Things aren't right when even wizards are feeling threatened by assassins.  At least based upon ACT data.  I hope their optimism is justified (and really surprised at the high INT displayed here.)

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Old 04-01-2008, 02:37 AM   #23
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And assassin's quite cocky, whether raid:

http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/...topic_id=410937

or solo:

http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/...topic_id=412263

And appear to agree that rangers are useless in raids.  So there's obviously good reason for concern.

But I got to tell you guys, I've been playing a ranger/archer type in nearly every PvE-oriented MMO since the original EQ, and it's always been an underdog class, at least at end game.  No-brainer to expect any differently, although I was hoping that EQ2 would be different.   (yeah, i know about the definition of insanity, but the low level EQ2 ranger is a neat implementation - with it's powerful rogue aspects vs. the D&D ranger as a weak healer.)  Well, ok, Anarchy Online's adventurer is an exception, but it wasn't when I first played AO, and now that the advent is a powerful class, none of my friends are playing AO.

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Old 04-01-2008, 01:42 PM   #24
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Tommara wrote:
Thon'gian wrote:
Ummm ever hear of the heal parse? We show that after each fight just like the dps parse..

Of course.  Umm, you know parsers are different for each game, and that each game may have several different parsers?  And that some are better than others?  And that no parser I've seen truly reflects a player's contribution to the team, but rather encourages a "me beat the parser attitude" rather than "me do the best for the team, even if the parser doesn't give me credit for it".

I've never seen a parser that penalizes dps for hogging more than their share of healing though.  If you've got one that does, let me know the info on it so I can try it out.  I never bother with them anymore.  The one's I've seen show who's healed the most (which encourages over healing, and wasting mana/power), as well as some that show who's needed the most healing (tanks way at the top, doh).  Although there are some parsers that don't count the over-healed amount, the ones who do over heal will get more credit over time than the ones who saved mana for the tanks, and avoided a wipe every now and then.

Parsers are analytical tools designed for serious players to improve their performance and enhance their gaming experience.  What gets posted in the parse channel is a nice side benefit, but it doesn't give any information on how to improve your gameplay.

If everyone ran their own parser, there wouldn't be a need to post the results.  Personally, I don't why some raiders doesn't run a parser.  There are so many cool things a parser can do, like give audible ques to when poisons run out, dispatch being casted, reinforcement being used, etc.  All things that will help improve DPS.  Some people use them to time auto attacks.  Another good thing a parser does is time your AOE's so you know when to take action to minimize the effects.

Ignore what's in the parse channel.  Unless of course, that's your only motivation for using a parser.

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