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Old 11-27-2007, 12:31 AM   #1
Kincaid
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Here's an interesting idea, dunno whether its been suggested before or not, but no harm in speaking out.

Remove track of player characters from PvP/

Now heres the thing, in the modern day culture of token farming, errant barbarian swashies going by the name of kandy vegas'stripper use the track to seek out their targets to farm their tokens, using a little window instead of the characters abilities which sometimes feel neglected.

I've seen monks, conjurors and pallies PvP without needing a track, but scouts have this unfair advantage over the 16 other classes, as they can stealth and use the track window to find quick targets, and in groups this can be used to find targets for the grps. - easy mode, seriously, easy mode.

Now imagine a scout without track, first thing i can imagine is the whining flame posts this idea would get, second thing i can imagine is that the few good scout players out there resorting to other methods provided within the game.

First Method is very simple.  Sound.  Turn up the environment sounds, and turn off the music completely.  You can here footsteps, sound of a buff, and combat.

Second methed of tracking someone is a very underused ability I find, the racial vision.  Infravision to see body heat, ultravision to see in the dark, sonic vision to see movement, and the erudite ability of seeing whether a character is a caster, a priest, or niether.  And of course you;d use totems to stealthed or invised players.

Next method is to examine the environment.  Missing mobs, dead bodies, chests littered all over the place, mobs returning back to their default position after chasing someone, and can you see a pet running around? Hmm, someones been here.

Now after all this, the successful and skillful player would have tracked and stalked a victim until they were at their most vulnable.  The unskillful player would have failed to notice the 22 stone shadowknight ogre standing behind him giggling like a schoolgirl.

Now of course the noob scouts will all cry "This is a rubbish idea, why not take away our dps while you're at it, character won't be worth playing ffs" and all the rest, but then take away track, the 20 yr old scout will be on a more lvl playing field as say a 12 yr old kid playing a necromancer.  The necromancer is going to get ganked, but not as often and has a chance of hiding as the scout has to rely on the environment to tell him where the kid is.  And the kid will enjoy the game a bt more as the big grps will not roll over him as often.

Just a thought.

You can pick holes in that all you want, but those that do probably don't want to lose easy mode from their lives, not just scouts but their grp members grped with that scout for pvp.  But as a scout myself who's had kills using 'easy mode' I can see the problem of people getting upset as they keep getting rolled over in a pvp situation, and find it easier to hide using the game environment.

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Old 11-27-2007, 02:17 AM   #2
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I say No.As a scout.. I use tracking as a defensive tool which I do believe upsets more players than it does those who dislike being hunted down by the use of it.While I'm harvesting on my Brigand.. I can see the group of 4 yellows zone in on my tracking and I have the opportunity to high tail it out of their tracking range. On the other hand, if I see a solo yellow off in the distance.. a quick glance at my tracking tips me off to the other 10 grays they have in tow who he/she is playing bait for and I know to avoid that trap as well.There are two sides to every story.. and both sides need to be addressed before requesting a nerf. SMILEY
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Old 11-27-2007, 02:27 AM   #3
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OK, one of my toons is a Brig, so maybe I'm biased.  But, I wouldn't mind getting rid of Tracking PC's on the PvP servers, but I think you'd need to give the Scouts something back.  Honestly, non-Fighters have Taunts (e.g. my Brigand, Swashbuckers, pet classes, etc.) but Taunting and Hit Points are the class defining aspects of the Fighter classes.  Non-Priest classes have healing (e.g. Necros, Monks, Bruisers, Shadowknights, Wizard/Warlock wards, etc.), but Healing is the class defining ability of Priests.  Damage is the class defining ability of Mages, although other classes (e.g. scouts) have that too.  But, there's no doubt that Tracking is the class defining ability of a scout. So, if you take away a scout's tracking ability,  you really need to give them something back in it's place.   

Unfortunately, in it's current state, Tracking is really more like Radar.  It doesn't show paths that people have taken, instead it shows where people are and whether they are hostile or friendly before they even get within eyesight.  It is simply too complex for the server to remember every player's path in memory for a while on the off chance a scout wants to track it.  I also find it odd that you can get players' names off of Tracking, because really it shouldn't con your faction or the other faction, but rather "Barbarian in Plate" or "Fae in Cloth" ... but changing it would require a lot of coding and probably a lot of server resources to get right.  I've seen it as a necessary evil. 

One alternative would be to allow Woodworkers to make Tracking Totems, then everyone could track and the benefit wouldn't be unique to scouts, but IMHO, that would just make avoiding PvP even easier. 

But removing Tracking all together does sound appealing ... the only problem is what do you give to scouts in it's place, because really, you'd be nerfing their strongest PvP ability and the ability that is the core of the whole concept of "scouting." 

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Old 11-27-2007, 02:41 AM   #4
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[email protected] wrote:

But removing Tracking all together does sound appealing ... the only problem is what do you give to scouts in it's place, because really, you'd be nerfing their strongest PvP ability and the ability that is the core of the whole concept of "scouting." 

I'm just going to jump in real quick and snuff the next inevitable response "but they already have Stealth!!". SMILEYThere are very few players on a PvP server that can't see stealth with the exception of the T1 players who just created their first characters. Everyone else carries tokens and such and see stealth just fine making it basically useless for anything besides avoiding the AI mobs.So.. hit "Cancel" folks.. before you post "but they already have Stealth!"Carry on.. SMILEY
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Old 11-27-2007, 03:14 AM   #5
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Why not just remove every class defining ability a scout has and turn them into second grade tanks.  Why do people feel the need to cry cry cry for nerfs......oh yea because every time they do it actually happens.  I can see it now next update all the scouts log in only to find that their track button has been replaced by a big middle finger and a picture of SOE violating all scouts on the server without proper protection.  People really need to start drawing a line asking themselves, "ok am I really just upset because I'd like to do this and am upset that it happens to me" or "do I really think this is overpowered" because last time I checked track never killed anybody and in fact it's saved as many solo players from the gank group as it has doomed the non solo who doesn't have it.

Besides didn't you actually post somewhere that you don't really enjoy PvP and would avoid it entirely if you had it your way?  No offense because I like you Purity people...have grouped with a bunch that are good people...except on loot greedy pally who decided he needed the Torn Ligament Long Bow over a ranger who still had a lvl 58 bow....but other than him your good people.

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Old 11-27-2007, 03:27 AM   #6
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Magius789 wrote:

Besides didn't you actually post somewhere that you don't really enjoy PvP and would avoid it entirely if you had it your way?

I also have a scout with track, and i use track in conjunction with evac a lot to avoid pvp... sooo... it must get annoying when you see volantiz on track then disappears cos i seen you on mine cos i don't want to pvpSMILEY

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Old 11-27-2007, 03:55 AM   #7
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Magius789 wrote:

Why not just remove every class defining ability a scout has and turn them into second grade tanks.  Why do people feel the need to cry cry cry for nerfs......oh yea because every time they do it actually happens.  I can see it now next update all the scouts log in only to find that their track button has been replaced by a big middle finger and a picture of SOE violating all scouts on the server without proper protection.  People really need to start drawing a line asking themselves, "ok am I really just upset because I'd like to do this and am upset that it happens to me" or "do I really think this is overpowered" because last time I checked track never killed anybody and in fact it's saved as many solo players from the gank group as it has doomed the non solo who doesn't have it.

Besides didn't you actually post somewhere that you don't really enjoy PvP and would avoid it entirely if you had it your way?  No offense because I like you Purity people...have grouped with a bunch that are good people...except on loot greedy pally who decided he needed the Torn Ligament Long Bow over a ranger who still had a lvl 58 bow....but other than him your good people.

Part of the problem is that track, which is the best pvp ability in the game, is coupled with classes that can put out T1 damage or close to it.  That combination is truly deadly.  Add to that the fact that rogues can have high health and pretty good mit, and it's worse.When predators and rogues have a tremendous ability to find their targets, wait for favorable circumstances, then deal knockout damage, then you get complaints.  My main on Venekor is a guardian and on Nagafen a mystic.  And i'll tell you that when i'm out there solo, way more than 50% of my fights with scouts happen when i'm engaged with another mob.  And yes, I do use vision totems pretty much all the time and my mystic sees stealth with bear form.  There's a reason that happens.  Meanwhile, my 38 troub running around tracking stealth and invis hardly ever dies when soloing in pvp.  I simply avoid the fights I figure I can't win, which I can do pretty easily.Some sort of tracking or anti-tracking totems would be a nice idea.
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Old 11-27-2007, 04:20 AM   #8
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Oneira wrote:
Some sort of tracking or anti-tracking totems would be a nice idea.
Meh.. I'd delete my Brigand and create something else since everyone would have the same ability anyways. It happened with Stealth.. everyone with a couple of gold can see stealth now.. so why not give them tracking and the ability not to be tracked.So... next nerf.. allow all professions the ability to use bows with critical hits with a totem? How about all classes should be able to snare with a totem? I'd love a totem that allows me to heal automatically with one click for 200 points and there after for every 2 seconds.See where I'm going with this?Why have "classes"? Just hand out tokens and it'll be a game of Dominos instead of talented people using their class based advantages against each other?/shakes headIt's already an item based game which is pretty much the bane of the gaming community. Lets not encourage it. SMILEY<img src=" />
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Old 11-27-2007, 04:20 AM   #9
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What the game needs is the Anti Scout

Make Defiler and Mystic the Anti Scout

Group buff .. as long as target within 30 m invisible to tracking.

Call it Cover Tracks .. buff .. use AA line whatever..

It makes sense .. Shamen cant catch you .. root you .. kill you in a few shots .. nor snare you .. or evac .. or chetah .. no invis .. or stealth .

They are a wild woodland class .. so covering your tracks fits from a lore stance.  

But that would be a great PvP buff ..  And would help a class who really has no defence once found.

It would also make scouts feel the pain of runing into a group of invis characters .. standing beside a shamen ..

Trackingis a fine skill .. what makes it lame in PvP is it isnt tracking it;s radar .. and there is no counter for it which makes it a lopsided skill .

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Old 11-27-2007, 04:26 AM   #10
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KannaWhoopass wrote:
Trackingis a fine skill .. what makes it lame in PvP is it isnt tracking it;s radar .. and there is no counter for it which makes it a lopsided skill 
I have absolutely no problem with a single class.. a "nemesis" so to speak.. that can counter tracking. As a solo.. they can avoid the Tracker.. In a group.. a fine compliment to that group.Much more acceptable to "lets hand out tokens to everyone to counter tracking". Matell couldn't have introduced a better Nerf. SMILEY
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Old 11-27-2007, 05:04 AM   #11
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Sony seems to know about tracking and that its a powerfull tool in pvp, otherwise there wouldnt be new gear with tracking avoidance on it.However, this gear doesnt seem to work right now (as stated in a few threads already), but if they make it work at some point this should reduce the power of tracking by a bit.
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Old 11-27-2007, 05:27 AM   #12
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*sigh* Most ppl  that have a clue and are rolling w/o track, bind a key to target PC PVP then just run around hitting that key and it will target anyone within targeting range.
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Old 11-27-2007, 05:50 AM   #13
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KannaWhoopass wrote:

What the game needs is the Anti Scout

Make Defiler and Mystic the Anti Scout

Group buff .. as long as target within 30 m invisible to tracking.

Call it Cover Tracks .. buff .. use AA line whatever..

It makes sense .. Shamen cant catch you .. root you .. kill you in a few shots .. nor snare you .. or evac .. or chetah .. no invis .. or stealth .

They are a wild woodland class .. so covering your tracks fits from a lore stance.  

But that would be a great PvP buff ..  And would help a class who really has no defence once found.

It would also make scouts feel the pain of runing into a group of invis characters .. standing beside a shamen ..

Trackingis a fine skill .. what makes it lame in PvP is it isnt tracking it;s radar .. and there is no counter for it which makes it a lopsided skill .

I'd like that idea actually.  Spyderbite's point about too many items compensating is well taken.  Too many potions/totems and whatnot in my inventory already.
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Old 11-27-2007, 05:52 AM   #14
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Tugatug wrote:
*sigh* Most ppl  that have a clue and are rolling w/o track, bind a key to target PC PVP then just run around hitting that key and it will target anyone within targeting range.
I don't believe that works on toons that are not in your sight range, like behind you.  That works only if you can see them.
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Old 11-27-2007, 06:06 AM   #15
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Oneira wrote:
Tugatug wrote:
*sigh* Most ppl  that have a clue and are rolling w/o track, bind a key to target PC PVP then just run around hitting that key and it will target anyone within targeting range.
I don't believe that works on toons that are not in your sight range, like behind you.  That works only if you can see them.

Num Lock, Shift+Tab, Shift+Tab, Shift+Tab, swing camera around, Shift+Tab, Shift+Tab, swing camera, Repeat.

"Templar NEEDS Fame!"

In all honesty, my favorite is when a solo scout comes to find me. Hooray Tracking(And people who don't know what they're doing)!

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Old 11-27-2007, 07:52 AM   #16
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The OP has a point. First let me say I definately don't ask for a nerf of scout tracking. This is EQ2 and scouts here have tracking. I just think-... it is funny that the only real scouts in EQ2 are the non-scout classes. Because they have to actively scout, learn the environment, check mobs and learn where players go for quests/xping etc.-... things like hills, rivers, trees are more or less irrelevant because of tracking. There is no way to hide from scouts.I know it is difficult to compare games several years ago before EQ2 I played a stealth class in DAoC (rouge/infiltrator). They were very similiar to EQ2 scout classes because they also have stealth and high burst damage if they surprised their opponents. Actually I was in a guild mostly consisting of rouge classes. We were part of an alliance and when we did pvp raids it was our job to scout the enemy and inform our main force. That was real fun.But they have no tracking tool. Nevertheless they were one of the most powerful classes in pvp and actually fun to play.  Some tracking tool was not necessary at all.I started several low level scouts on EQ2 PvP server but they never were really fun for me to play. It was just too easy to switch on track, check out enemy, kill enemy or search for another victim if the current one was too strong.Maybe the new tracking avoidance will work some day and have a real effect but I wouldn't bet on it.P.S. Btw. they also had no evac. Another tool which in my oppinion is completly unnecessary for pvp as well as pve (mobs are no challange anyway). Without evac as rouge you actually had to be careful not to be detected and hunted by the enemy.
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Old 11-27-2007, 09:19 AM   #17
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I'd trade track for stealth that was actually useful.So, if track was removed I'd fully expect totems, invis goggles all that other crap to be removed, as well as decreasing the range from which you can see a stealthed player.
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Old 11-27-2007, 10:49 AM   #18
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Well,I see one brigand here crying about totems..if theres no totems like that i will ask soe to take off ALL crazy items/potions that you guys use to heal/cure yourself...cure and heals should not be only a healers/paladin ability?I just start one quest today in Jarsath Wastes that will give a FREE LAY OF HANDS FOR EVERYBODY!i hope that is not a item that you can use in combat our people that have low dps, like paladins, will never kill one brigand that can heal himself for 3k.about track. i hate track, i hate how scouts is a bunch of [Removed for Content] and only attack when you have mobs on your head. but, they are scouts. they need have track or the name "scout" will not make sense.maybe just need make the range track not too big. when im running with one scout im always surprise how far they can track.
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Old 11-27-2007, 11:51 AM   #19
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[email protected] wrote:
I say No.As a scout.. I use tracking as a defensive tool which I do believe upsets more players than it does those who dislike being hunted down by the use of it.While I'm harvesting on my Brigand.. I can see the group of 4 yellows zone in on my tracking and I have the opportunity to high tail it out of their tracking range. On the other hand, if I see a solo yellow off in the distance.. a quick glance at my tracking tips me off to the other 10 grays they have in tow who he/she is playing bait for and I know to avoid that trap as well.There are two sides to every story.. and both sides need to be addressed before requesting a nerf. SMILEY<img src=" width="15" height="15" />

whether used for offencive or defencive, the general consensus has always been that PC tracking in PVP is the main " unfair " advantage that scouts have had over all other classes.

My bruiser nor my wizard, as you state,  can see peeps zone in and I have the opportunity to avoid getting ganked. I have to rely on environment, just as OP suggests.

As for it being a class defining ability, I agree, and it should stay,  but for PVE purposes only. Checking to see if a named is up, or if you're close to one is a good thing, saves time. But as for PVP, only scout classes have the ability to pick and choose their PVP encounters and the rest are denied viable defence to that one special factor.

You want to run?, then run when you get hit from nowhere like the rest of us, and have to take that first burst of dmg. to find out what's attacking you.

Removing PC tracking would bring PVP a much more sense of balance than any nerfs SoE can think of IMO.

I can't  " pick and choose ", why should anybody else?

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Old 11-27-2007, 12:14 PM   #20
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Pumancat wrote:
[email protected] wrote:
I say No.As a scout.. I use tracking as a defensive tool which I do believe upsets more players than it does those who dislike being hunted down by the use of it.While I'm harvesting on my Brigand.. I can see the group of 4 yellows zone in on my tracking and I have the opportunity to high tail it out of their tracking range. On the other hand, if I see a solo yellow off in the distance.. a quick glance at my tracking tips me off to the other 10 grays they have in tow who he/she is playing bait for and I know to avoid that trap as well.There are two sides to every story.. and both sides need to be addressed before requesting a nerf. SMILEY<img src=" width="15" height="15">

I can't  " pick and choose ", why should anybody else?

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Because YOU chose the classes you want to play. Don't cry nerf because another class has something you don't. I'm so tired of everyone [Removed for Content] about track. My dirge needs the track. I rolled a dirge: one for the run speed and two for the track...the [Removed for Content]' devs have given almost every other class a big [Removed for Content] run speed boost...and me being the dirge...I'm continually now running slower than everyone else in my group. Pisses me off...but I'm dealing w/ it. And now you want to take track away from my dirge?  Fine, then let's take away FD from bruiser/monk! And take away all the pre-wards and pre-heals from healers...oh I could go on and on. /sigh....

If you want track - roll a scout or a bard...but don't poo-poo another class ability because you don't have that ability. /nuff said.

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Old 11-27-2007, 12:17 PM   #21
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as long as their rag tag code makes rendering of pcs so slow, track better stay there... heck, even with track, I get attacked by the "invisible rings" out there... Tried without, it's unplayable... or ok, way below par from what I'd expect from a pvp game.and if you want removing a core ability of an archtype, then I'd say tanks should also stop taunting, because I find it  unfair that I'm almost never able to hit their healer...
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Old 11-27-2007, 12:18 PM   #22
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Pumancat wrote:
As for it being a class defining ability, I agree, and it should stay,  but for PVE purposes only.
Heh.. I've never used tracking for finding mobs with the exception of the occasional elusive quest kill I needed. If this were implemented then I'd have another free spot on my hot bar.Meh.. I'll just sit back row and watch at this point. If this sort of nerf goes through, at least I'll have something to laugh about when roots are removed from PvP too because people claim it isn't fair that they have to sit and watch somebody kill them from a distance.My 2 copper is... remove tracking from PvP? Fine.. improve stealth. Otherwise scouts are just thugs that cover their eyes yelling "You can't see me, you can't see me you can't see me!" as everyone T2 or higher sits and chuckles at him/her dancing around. XD
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Old 11-27-2007, 12:34 PM   #23
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Here is an interesting twist on this argument.  I think instead of taking track away from scouts, it should be given to everyone.  For example, put a tinkering item in the game that can only be used when in the primary slot and can ONLY track PC targets or give it a very long reuse time if the tracking window is closed.  Another example is to have a tradeskill item that can go in a ring or ear slot, with no stats, and can track only PC targets. Scouts get the innate ability to track and are the only ones that can track Pve, while all the other classes can provide the "defensive" benefit that most scouts say it is used for.
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Old 11-27-2007, 12:46 PM   #24
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Bob21 wrote:
Here is an interesting twist on this argument.  I think instead of taking track away from scouts, it should be given to everyone.
No problem.. this sounds extremely fair. *cough*Now.. excuse me while I go customize a new hotbar for all those new Warlock & Fury spells I should get in return for such a trade off on my Brigand! SMILEY
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Old 11-27-2007, 12:56 PM   #25
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Thankfully with the new expansion track isn't such a game breaker anymore. Before, many times that gank squad wouldn't render until they were on top of me for the kill. Now, I can actually see  them in the distance. In the jungle, on the other hand, it's definitely an advantage. As for everyone having track, some pvp-ers are using an outside program that tracks every player within their targeting range, 360 degrees. From what I hear, it's been tested to be nearly as long-ranged as track itself. Clearly, some folks have decided their non-scouts deserve track, too.For whatever whining that revelation will cause, know this - it's a passive program that uses information your game gets (and needs) so, apparently, there's no way for SOE to detect it or combat it, short of disabling your ability to click on distant toons (and lets face it, that's no fix, it would be a disaster).I don't use the program myself, as I'm too much of a cheapskate to fork out extra money for it. Besides, as I said before, with the rendering issue fixed I can play without it.
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Old 11-27-2007, 12:58 PM   #26
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You know what really bugs me is healing.  Why do some characters get to heal themselves in combat and I cant?  All i get are those lossy pots with the long recast times.  Healing should only be allowed in pve.  After all, as a scout class I can't kill those pesky healers, it is just so unfair.  And whats up with those monks?  Man are they tough in pvp.  I hope something can be done to make them easier.
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Old 11-27-2007, 01:03 PM   #27
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I'd like to add Rift to the "I want" list.  You know, since we're making a Christmas wish-list.
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Old 11-27-2007, 01:05 PM   #28
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If you remove tracking, PvP on Venekor will end. The zones are big and there just aren't enough people to keep it going without some way of finding each other. Yes it makes scouts more powerful and yes because of this we're the only people who've managed to keep our titles in the rush to 80, but PvP without it would be all but impossible.
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Old 11-27-2007, 01:06 PM   #29
Bob21

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[email protected] wrote:
Bob21 wrote:
Here is an interesting twist on this argument.  I think instead of taking track away from scouts, it should be given to everyone.
No problem.. this sounds extremely fair. *cough*Now.. excuse me while I go customize a new hotbar for all those new Warlock & Fury spells I should get in return for such a trade off on my Brigand! SMILEY<img src=" />
You already have the option of getting the warlock and fury spells.  You can get mastercrafted armor that gives a chance to heal over time when hit, a shield that has a chance to cause damage when you are struck, and weapons that have a chance to "nuke" on a successful attack.  Potions and totems can alter hp/mana regen, resists, and so forth.  You use poisons that can dot, dd, and debuff.An item that would provide ONLY PC tracking with a long reuse time , say 5 minutes, would go along with everything else in the game.
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Old 11-27-2007, 01:11 PM   #30
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Bob21 wrote:
You already have the option of getting the warlock and fury spells.  You can get mastercrafted armor that gives a chance to heal over time when hit, a shield that has a chance to cause damage when you are struck, and weapons that have a chance to "nuke" on a successful attack.  Potions and totems can alter hp/mana regen, resists, and so forth.  You use poisons that can dot, dd, and debuff.An item that would provide ONLY PC tracking with a long reuse time , say 5 minutes, would go along with everything else in the game.
Now you've gone back to the original point that I made.. and enforced it. SMILEYWhy have classes at all if any and all skills/spells can be bought at the broker and/or provisioner? Why not just do away with classes all together and everyone's specialties are dictated exclusively by what they wear or have sitting in their backpacks?I prefer the diversity of the classes.. every class has an advantage of one sort or another. Handing out these advantages to everyone like Uno cards is not a solution. Its only a method of turning EQ2 in to a micro-transaction based game. May as well enable Station Exchange on every server at that point.
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