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Old 04-05-2008, 11:59 PM   #1
Giliad
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First off I would like to say I am in no way affiliated with SOE or any partner of theirs.  With that being said....

Stop Complaining or get out!!  I love being a ranger, always have, always will.  Everyone is so ticked about DPS match-up with assassins.  WHo cares?  is loot or groups determined by Parse?  What irritates me more than the unfair comparison of Rangers/Assassins is the fact that No One wants a ranger.  You could one shot Nagafen at lvl 80 and still no one would want you or actively recruit you to group or raid.  IF you are there great if not NBD.  Always I see in chat "Need Bard, Shaman, Cleric, Druid, Mana regen".  WHY?  Other classes depend of the group buffs of these classes.  What do rangers do?  Nothing to help with combat.  Oh yeah lets all rejoice that we keep the groups together when running on foot with pathfinding, but honeslty how many toons besides me run anymore? All have horid looking mounts that I tend to out run on my own 2 feet.

Assassins get hte transfer and poison transfers, right?  Rangers get ummm, "sorry man, we found a bard to take your spot as they have group buffs."

My job in my guild is to parse as high as I can and switch my focus or aim to split group mobs.  If with a pally and he amends me I take my hate decreasing buff off to generate more, until I get aggro then hit it on reducing me gain until the tank gets it back.  It would be nice to get a more usefull buff than pathfinding, is all I am trying to say in short.

Feel free to share on this but not about the stupid DPS difference, please....

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Old 04-06-2008, 02:09 AM   #2
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This class is about DPS, not wanting a discussion about rangers to include DPS is pure idiocy.
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Old 04-06-2008, 02:18 AM   #3
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Granted but I know quite a few rangers with just AD3 CAs that parse within the top 5 of the parse.  SO DPS to me, as it is, is sufficient.  I would like to hear other discussion about the usefullness of rangers to make the desirable to groups/raid/guilds.
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Old 04-07-2008, 10:55 AM   #4
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Mendle wrote:
Granted but I know quite a few rangers with just AD3 CAs that parse within the top 5 of the parse.  SO DPS to me, as it is, is sufficient.  I would like to hear other discussion about the usefullness of rangers to make the desirable to groups/raid/guilds.
The complaints are really geared towards higher ends rangers and assassins. From the sounds of it, you are not in a higher end guild that runs into these problems. We all love our rangers too. Except there are some of us in high end guilds that are getting out-parsed by not only assassins, but also brigs and swashies and sometimes illys. This should not be happening. If you are making the top of the parse with AD3s, you are not experiencing the problem that most of the higher raiding rangers are complaining about. Sufficient for rangers mean we are topping the parse with assassins, wizards and warlocks. Which in higher end guilds means parsing 4.5K+. Unfortunately, we are not there. Rangers with the best gear are topping out around 3.5k-4k while our other t1 brethern are easily going higher.This is the crux of the problem.
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Old 04-07-2008, 12:54 PM   #5
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Mendle wrote:

Stop Complaining or get out!!  I love being a ranger, always have, always will.  Everyone is so ticked about DPS match-up with assassins.  WHo cares?  is loot or groups determined by Parse?  What irritates me more than the unfair comparison of Rangers/Assassins is the fact that No One wants a ranger.  You could one shot Nagafen at lvl 80 and still no one would want you or actively recruit you to group or raid.  IF you are there great if not NBD.  Always I see in chat "Need Bard, Shaman, Cleric, Druid, Mana regen".  WHY?  Other classes depend of the group buffs of these classes.  What do rangers do?  Nothing to help with combat.  Oh yeah lets all rejoice that we keep the groups together when running on foot with pathfinding, but honeslty how many toons besides me run anymore? All have horid looking mounts that I tend to out run on my own 2 feet.

First off it is NOT all about the DPS match-up. It IS about ALL of the very strange treatment of the Ranger items since ROK release. First we get 20 bows that are WORSE than the ones we were using before ROK. Then they "fix" the problem by making ALL bows pre ROK worse.

As for specific classes, the only one I ever see is "Need Illy". Otherwise it is, need tank, need healer, need DPS. Never "need guard, need shaman, need assassin, etc". And as for being turned down for an invite, I never see a class turned down, "Ranger is not DPS, need assassin". I DO see individual players turned down, "that player can't dps his way out of a paper bag, drop him. That tank can't hold agro for 2 sec, drop him."

I am curious, how do you do vs the wall. I am suprised that more rangers haven't posted their numbers. This is the best way to measure ourselves vs each other and help each other get better. If you do well vs the wall you will do well in a group or a raid. If you do NOT do well vs the wall you will NOT do as well in a group or a raid. Some level 80 rangers with a good bow can't top 1.5K, others can top 4.5K. Just because one can't reach 1.5K does not mean that the entire ranger class is broken any more than just because one ranger can top 4.5K means that all rangers are just fine.

Finally as for "getting out", those of us that are still playing Rangers are not going anywhere. Every day more and more rangers reach level 80. Rangers still outnumber Assassins and will continue to do so. Why? Not really sure. It is definitly NOT because we are super simple pushbutton Uber DPS.

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Old 04-07-2008, 03:42 PM   #6
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A lot of groups ask specifically for hate transfer when spamming for T8 heroic content.  Let's be clear about that.  They can go without it, but they would prefer not to.  I have not yet tested any of the more recent changes thoroughly enough, so I can't say what they might give us in the way of help. 
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Old 04-07-2008, 05:53 PM   #7
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Mendle wrote:
Granted but I know quite a few rangers with just AD3 CAs that parse within the top 5 of the parse.  SO DPS to me, as it is, is sufficient.  I would like to hear other discussion about the usefullness of rangers to make the desirable to groups/raid/guilds.

Old habits die hard, I didn't intend on visiting the Ranger forums today.  But since I'm here...  Statements like this is why Rangers will never get fixed.  There could be thousands of posts, with detailed analysis, explaining the problem, and thousands more with detailed data on how to fix the problem.  But this is the one post the devs will point to that proves there isn't a problem.  Some mediocre rangers in mediocre guilds that parse in the top five on Lab runs is sufficient.

For Mendle, I parsed in the top 3 postions every raid before I betrayed and I did not find myself even remotely useful.  I'm still parsing in the top 3 positions, but now I have some "usefullness"  to go with it.

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Old 04-07-2008, 07:49 PM   #8
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What irritates me is that people seem to think all we do is lob arrows and that's it.  We really do have more than pathfinding, seriously.  Blame arrow is a favorite of mine, along with Vulnerability.  Giving the tank 30% more hate gain or reducing a mob's defense by 55 sound kinda significant to me.  And I'm sure the Wizzies like Rope, being that it reduces a mob's heat resist by over 2600.  And decreasing an opponent's deflection and parry by 75 with Vulnerable Arrow sounds pretty good too.  Do many players simply THINK they don't matter, when they actually do help?  Is it that not many actually know about these, or are they really not important enough to care about?  Seems to me that those are abilities that do help, though I wouldn't mind seeing others' opinions on this, ranger and non-ranger alike.
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Old 04-07-2008, 08:21 PM   #9
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From what I have seen from the raids and guild I know is that most don't really know or care about all that jazz or debuffs that rangers do.  I feel that my class doesn't need to be the #1 parser.  Iwould be content with the top 5.  to me that is sufficient.  Top 5 in the T2-T3 raids of ROK.  I feel nerfing the bows is a big issue as well and feel that as Rangers (which to me means Ranged Masters) our Epic Eagle Talon (Fabeled version) should have been upped and not the RSB or other bows nerfed. 

I parse well against the wall, but if in a group and raid that aligns me with additional buffs I can parse 3.5k and higher.  I feel that as rangers we get treated like the red headed step child of DPS because most don't understand our class and because we give no benificial buffs to other members we are looked over.  I guess my basic question could be restated as follows:

What would other Rangers like to see as an improvement to our class that would make us more attractable to those that no nothing about our class.  Assassins get hate transfer and poison transfer right?  Why don't we get anything?

As for my get out comment let me clarify.  I love the ranger class.  It has always been my main in EQ1 and EQ2.  Alot of what I hear is complaining about not being the highest parser.  Why can't we compete with assassins?  I would rather see changes that would allow us as a class more attractive attributes.  Maybe a group agi, buff or STR buff.  Maybe a poison xfer like our cousins.  What are your thoughts on this.

Also why is it that rangers, whom are the ranged weapon masters, still fighting the 9 sec delay of the best bows.  I feel that automatically our delay should be cut in half for out auto attacks.  That is what we fight with primarily.

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Old 04-07-2008, 08:25 PM   #10
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As it stands, I thought the gist was simply this:Given the same buffs, other similarly equipped classes WILL out parse the Ranger by too much.[and the lack of this being addressed]Yes, there are other things, but that sums it up, does it?K.I.S.S.I have Rope M1, Vulnerability M1 and Blame Arrow M1 as well, and agree those seem to be ignored 'features'.[VA is easy M2 final choice]
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Old 04-07-2008, 08:42 PM   #11
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I agree that we are out DPSed, however there are numerous posts and threads I have read that voice this complaint.  I am of the understanding that the devs are working on this.  I would like to see us, as a whole, afforded some beneficial buffs for group members to make us less expendable.  It would also if given a STR or AGI buff increase our DPS would it not?  Would it not help to have upgrades for some of the ancient teachings as well?
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Old 04-08-2008, 07:12 AM   #12
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Mendle wrote:
I agree that we are out DPSed, however there are numerous posts and threads I have read that voice this complaint.  I am of the understanding that the devs are working on this.  I would like to see us, as a whole, afforded some beneficial buffs for group members to make us less expendable.  It would also if given a STR or AGI buff increase our DPS would it not?  Would it not help to have upgrades for some of the ancient teachings as well?

Um no it really dosent. I may be wrong but i dont think agi helps us in any way dps wise. If im wrong im sorry but, please dont give thoes devs, who work on the game and i would asmue understand the way it works, any stupid ideas about giveing us more agi.

Its bad enough that the god [Removed for Content] swashy class gets a self str buff and we get a buff, while giveing us haste is great, gives us that stupid useless crap agi. Give me god [Removed for Content] str!!!!!!!!

also im sick and tired of getting nice RDA gear that has NO STR!!!!!!!!!!

Again if im wrong im sorry but i dont think i am and if i am ignore my post and educate me so i can start upping my agi!

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Old 04-08-2008, 09:17 AM   #13
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TeflonS7 wrote:
What irritates me is that people seem to think all we do is lob arrows and that's it.  We really do have more than pathfinding, seriously.  Blame arrow is a favorite of mine, along with Vulnerability.  Giving the tank 30% more hate gain or reducing a mob's defense by 55 sound kinda significant to me.  And I'm sure the Wizzies like Rope, being that it reduces a mob's heat resist by over 2600.  And decreasing an opponent's deflection and parry by 75 with Vulnerable Arrow sounds pretty good too.  Do many players simply THINK they don't matter, when they actually do help?  Is it that not many actually know about these, or are they really not important enough to care about?  Seems to me that those are abilities that do help, though I wouldn't mind seeing others' opinions on this, ranger and non-ranger alike.

You really believe your blame arrow gives the tank 30% more hate in a raid setting?  You do know that a dirge provides 37% hate gain.  So your 30% is really 13% because hate gain only stacks to 50%.  And if you have a Coercer in your MT group too, the MT is already at the cap reducing your blame arrow to 0% hate gain.  And you seem to have forgot that blame is only 10 seconds out of every 30.

And Rope is real nice too.  Provides a nice defuff for wizzies and, well, Rangers.  Assassins not only have hate transfer and a very nice poison proc buff to put on the MT, but their version of Rope debuffs poison, which benefits multiple classes including all the scout poison users and the MT that's wearing the Assassin's Toxic.

It's not that Rangers are useless.  No class is useless.  Some are more useful than others.  Some are critical.

I think I'm wasting my breath though.  I just noticed a request for AGI buffs to increase DPS as well as upgrades for the ancient teachings, which leads me to believe that there are still many Rangers around that don't understand the the basic mechanics of this game.  I posted a couple of years back that we were our own worst enemies.  I see that nothing has changed.

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Old 04-08-2008, 09:45 AM   #14
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Gareorn wrote:
I think I'm wasting my breath though.  I just noticed a request for AGI buffs to increase DPS as well as upgrades for the ancient teachings, which leads me to believe that there are still many Rangers around that don't understand the the basic mechanics of this game.  I posted a couple of years back that we were our own worst enemies.  I see that nothing has changed.
We need another sticky.
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Old 04-08-2008, 09:57 AM   #15
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^^ Well said Gareorn.

There's a number of problems and issues here, and a lot of misconceptions in EQ2 about the Ranger class.  I think a lot of people *do* just think Rangers shoot arrows, but who can blame them?  The Ranger has few "visible" buffs that aid teammates;  the arrow CAs that do special effects such as the hate transfer, as mentioned above, often become useless.  And not only that, when you have a game with 24 classes, and each one has a LOT of different abilities / spells / CAs, you can't keep track of them all.  So I'd wager most people aren't aware of half the Ranger abilities.

Add onto that the "dps" issue which has suddenly become the "be all, end all" of measurement against one another (take a look at various posts on ANY class board - they're all about dps and who's the best.  It's like one giant male measuring contest).  Seriously.  Am I the only one that remembers the "good old days" of EQ1 where dps parsing contests weren't necessary?  I never once heard someone yelling at the Enchanter for only parsing 1k dps in a fight;  or a Shaman for slacking off in the dps parse.  And yet you wouldn't ever consider raiding without these classes.  Enchanter mezzes or clarity were integral, as were Shaman slows and debuffs.

So, sure, there's a problem with the Ranger community in EQ2 being it's own worst enemy.  But there are also some problems with the mechanics of EQ2 itself.  Too many class abilities that overlap and render other classes' abilities useless or redundant; too many encounters where it's all about the dps;  the list goes on and on.

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Old 04-08-2008, 10:09 AM   #16
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Mendle....I congratulate you on the state of disbelief you have generated in me!!! Amongst all the ranger posts that have been going on about these lu44 changes yours are probably the most damaging to the class, pure ontology....SMILEYSMILEY
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Old 04-08-2008, 11:51 AM   #17
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Gareorn wrote:
TeflonS7 wrote:
What irritates me is that people seem to think all we do is lob arrows and that's it.  We really do have more than pathfinding, seriously.  Blame arrow is a favorite of mine, along with Vulnerability.  Giving the tank 30% more hate gain or reducing a mob's defense by 55 sound kinda significant to me.  And I'm sure the Wizzies like Rope, being that it reduces a mob's heat resist by over 2600.  And decreasing an opponent's deflection and parry by 75 with Vulnerable Arrow sounds pretty good too.  Do many players simply THINK they don't matter, when they actually do help?  Is it that not many actually know about these, or are they really not important enough to care about?  Seems to me that those are abilities that do help, though I wouldn't mind seeing others' opinions on this, ranger and non-ranger alike.

You really believe your blame arrow gives the tank 30% more hate in a raid setting?  You do know that a dirge provides 37% hate gain.  So your 30% is really 13% because hate gain only stacks to 50%.  And if you have a Coercer in your MT group too, the MT is already at the cap reducing your blame arrow to 0% hate gain.  And you seem to have forgot that blame is only 10 seconds out of every 30.

And Rope is real nice too.  Provides a nice defuff for wizzies and, well, Rangers.  Assassins not only have hate transfer and a very nice poison proc buff to put on the MT, but their version of Rope debuffs poison, which benefits multiple classes including all the scout poison users and the MT that's wearing the Assassin's Toxic.

It's not that Rangers are useless.  No class is useless.  Some are more useful than others.  Some are critical.

I think I'm wasting my breath though.  I just noticed a request for AGI buffs to increase DPS as well as upgrades for the ancient teachings, which leads me to believe that there are still many Rangers around that don't understand the the basic mechanics of this game.  I posted a couple of years back that we were our own worst enemies.  I see that nothing has changed.

/agreedI have seen this since the inception. The ranger class is not an easy class to play or to learn. There are so many misconceptions about the class and lot fo them are perpetuated by our own class. I don't think Mendle has actually parsed 3.5k in a t2 raid since he does not even know that agi does not affect our DPS or that our ancient teaching spells DID get upgraded.But I digress, I mainly wanted to agree with Gaeron about us being our own worst enemies.
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Old 04-08-2008, 12:38 PM   #18
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Personally i would be happy with doing swashy-dps as ranger, if my ranger had the same utility.
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Old 04-09-2008, 01:31 AM   #19
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Yes I have parsed that high in a t2 raid, but you can disbelieve it if you choose.  AGI does not directly increase our DPS such as STR does.  STR gives more damage per hit right?  AGI gives more attacks by decreasing our delay on weapons, no?  The higher the AGI the higher the number of auto attacks correct?  There by indirectly affecting our DPS.  And maybe I didn't know that the ancient teachings were upgraded.  Please tell me what level the new Honed Reflexes is, as I am unaware of it as a lvl 80 toon.
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Old 04-09-2008, 06:23 AM   #20
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Mendle wrote:
Yes I have parsed that high in a t2 raid, but you can disbelieve it if you choose.  AGI does not directly increase our DPS such as STR does.  STR gives more damage per hit right?  AGI gives more attacks by decreasing our delay on weapons, no?  The higher the AGI the higher the number of auto attacks correct?  There by indirectly affecting our DPS.  And maybe I didn't know that the ancient teachings were upgraded.  Please tell me what level the new Honed Reflexes is, as I am unaware of it as a lvl 80 toon.

Yeah .. thats it Baby .. *rofl*

But .. don't forget WIS ... very important, because the more WIS you have, the more Knowledge you get to use your bow, and so you get a higher change for Crits and Double Attack SMILEY

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Old 04-09-2008, 06:30 AM   #21
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Mendle wrote:
Yes I have parsed that high in a t2 raid, but you can disbelieve it if you choose.  AGI does not directly increase our DPS such as STR does.  STR gives more damage per hit right?  AGI gives more attacks by decreasing our delay on weapons, no?  The higher the AGI the higher the number of auto attacks correct?  There by indirectly affecting our DPS.  And maybe I didn't know that the ancient teachings were upgraded.  Please tell me what level the new Honed Reflexes is, as I am unaware of it as a lvl 80 toon.

[Removed for Content]! u r in a guild doing t2 raids? u have to be kidding me? ru like one of thoes girls that gets uber raid gear and has no clue whats going on just cause the guys in ur guild like to hear ur hot voice?

I cant even belive what im reading...Im ganna go poor some gasoline in my eyes now. And while im doing that please do us all a fav and canel ur account.

I dont normaly attack people like this but this is some of the funniest [Removed for Content] i have ever heard [Removed for Content]...Nothing personal...=0)

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Old 04-09-2008, 09:28 AM   #22
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Mendle wrote:
Yes I have parsed that high in a t2 raid, but you can disbelieve it if you choose.  AGI does not directly increase our DPS such as STR does.  STR gives more damage per hit right?  AGI gives more attacks by decreasing our delay on weapons, no?  The higher the AGI the higher the number of auto attacks correct?  There by indirectly affecting our DPS.  And maybe I didn't know that the ancient teachings were upgraded.  Please tell me what level the new Honed Reflexes is, as I am unaware of it as a lvl 80 toon.
Good, in that case please take 15 min and go to the wall in KJ and kill it 10 times, then post your parse under the "parsing the wall" topic. The more rangers that do this the more info we will have to see the full effect of this LU. You are correct about STR, however you are wrong about AGI. You may want to pull up your persona window, then change your various stats and see how they affect your characters other numbers. You do know about /weapon, correct?Honed Reflexes is NOT an ancient teaching. The three new CAs we got when the level cap was first raised from 50-60 are what are refered to as ancient teachings (by the game itself, it is not a term we made up). And yes they were all upgraded with this expansion.
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Old 04-09-2008, 10:51 AM   #23
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Mendle wrote:
Yes I have parsed that high in a t2 raid, but you can disbelieve it if you choose.  AGI does not directly increase our DPS such as STR does.  STR gives more damage per hit right?  AGI gives more attacks by decreasing our delay on weapons, no?  The higher the AGI the higher the number of auto attacks correct?  There by indirectly affecting our DPS.  And maybe I didn't know that the ancient teachings were upgraded.  Please tell me what level the new Honed Reflexes is, as I am unaware of it as a lvl 80 toon.
I have never seen anyone own themselves so bad in one thread. There is no way you are raiding t2 and there is no way you are parsing 3.5k without even knowing what are stats do and what are ancient teachings are.This post should be stickied at the top of the ranger forums as a warning to all other rangers not to smoke crack.
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Old 04-09-2008, 12:01 PM   #24
BigChiefJJ

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Join Date: Feb 2006
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What's wrong with rangers - we are our own worst nightmare is correct.  There are people that play every class that do not know the full mechanics of their class, there are people that can play their class very well without knowing all the hidden mechanics and there are people that think they know the mechanics very well.  

The difference in some of the other classes that I've seen and the rangers is that is someone makes a mistake or states something that is not correct - the typical response from other rangers is ‘go away, delete your toon, you are stupid and should not be playing, instead of explaining the differences and the reasoning behind the mistake and trying to help the person - no wonder we cant agree on something there are several of us that do nothing but insulting each other.  This isn't the flames board - is it so hard to reply to posts with constructive criticism instead of - stop smoking crack?

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Old 04-09-2008, 02:24 PM   #25
Ranja

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[email protected] wrote:

What's wrong with rangers - we are our own worst nightmare is correct.  There are people that play every class that do not know the full mechanics of their class, there are people that can play their class very well without knowing all the hidden mechanics and there are people that think they know the mechanics very well.  

The difference in some of the other classes that I've seen and the rangers is that is someone makes a mistake or states something that is not correct - the typical response from other rangers is ‘go away, delete your toon, you are stupid and should not be playing, instead of explaining the differences and the reasoning behind the mistake and trying to help the person - no wonder we cant agree on something there are several of us that do nothing but insulting each other.  This isn't the flames board - is it so hard to reply to posts with constructive criticism instead of - stop smoking crack?

Well if the OP had come here asking for questions and answer they would have gotten a much more civil response. Instead, they came here and told us to shut-up  and play because they like their ranger and they parse well. Well, come to find out the OP has no idea what agi does or most everything else about a ranger. So, lets recap: He flamed all rangers trying to make us feel stupid, then we find out he is probably lying about what he parses, then we find out he thinks agi increase AA, so that makes us realize that he is definitely lying about everything including his guild raiding t2 unless he just comes along for the ride.So, yeah, he gets flamed. If he came here humble asking for advice rather than telling us we don't know how to play he would have been recieved in a more civil manner.Oh, and I agree we are our own worst enemies. However, it is the OP who is our enemy. Rangers claiming to know everything and that our class is fine but when you dig deeper they are actually ignorant of the most basic facts about a ranger. AGi = more AA....you got to be kidding me. And he raids t2, yea right...
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Old 04-11-2008, 04:35 PM   #26
gutti

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all i have to say is WOW , how do you even get a ranger to 80 thinking that agility raises auto attack. Get big son
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