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Old 02-29-2008, 06:02 PM   #31
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Neiloch wrote:
Ammo is quite different, trying to compare them to BP and raid jewelry just doesn't make sense. At the very least DT summoned ammo needs to go away, that was two expansions ago and I rarely see anyone using KoS equipment anymore. Only time I see EoF raid gear is on rangers because of things like crit chance and ranged DA, other than that I haven't seen 1 single piece of  70 or lower equipment on a level 80. At most Raid obtained arrows from EoF should be on par, not better, than the proposed new level 70 arrows. Ferrite arrows are essentially "level 80 arrows" while all other arrows are "level 70" because of when they were introduced.
I completely agree.Summoned arrows from KOS should not be as good as ferrite arrows, by this I mean they should NOT be upgraded to lvl 80 status. They should stay the exact level they are now.EOF arrows shouldn't be either, but I can see a better argument for moving them since they are not unlimited.
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Old 02-29-2008, 06:27 PM   #32
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I see assertions that arrows are a "different" situation, but nothing to back up these assertions other than the mere fact that these high-end arrows were created for level 70 characters, but the same could be said of any other T7 raid drop, and yet those T7 raid drops are still relevant in T8, still better than the new handcrafted gear.  In reality, arrows are no different; they are gear that gets upgraded just like any other piece of gear.  What you're essentially saying is that it's ok for RoK handcrafted to be a lot better than KoS raid drops.  This makes absolutely no sense in the context of broader itemization patterns.  I don't go into a new tier thinking, "time to replace all my old raid gear with handcrafted."  Clearly, in all other gear areas, KoS raid > RoK handcrafted.  Make the T7 raid arrows level 70 to use and rated level 80 and give us new high-end summoned arrows from something in RoK (Shard of Hate, maybe, or revamped VP loot) that are level 80 to use and rated level 90.  Gear upgrades should and generally do go T7 raid -> T8 raid, not T7 raid -> T8 handcrafted -> T8 raid.
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Old 02-29-2008, 06:44 PM   #33
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Yes but your not getting it, this is ammo, consumables not [Removed for Content] swords and armor. Just because you don't want to have to buy ammo because you like using your DT summoned ammo FOR FREE or whatever doesn't mean it should be changed. i'm not saying RoK handcrafted gear should be better, i am saying handcrafted arrows should be better. This whole fix is trying to essentially leave the other arrow tiers in the past because everything about their design is broken.in any event all the information isn't available so we are going to have to wait and see what they are going to do. We just know for now that handcrafted 67 arrows will be changed to 70 and to work correctly with level 80 bows
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Old 02-29-2008, 07:03 PM   #34
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So what if it's a consumable?  That's an arbitrary distinction, as far as I can tell.  As a counterexample to your implied argument that consumables are/should be treated differently, Poisoned Seeds of the Tender are a T7 raid consumable and are still better than than T8 caustic.When you talk about me using my summoned arrows for free, you are merely attacking my motive (a fallacy of moral reasoning), not addressing my argument.  Yes, I am using my DT summoned arrows for free and thus making them rated level 80 would benefit me, but that does not mean you get to simply throw my whole argument out.  Tell me why it makes sense that arrow upgrades across tiers should be treated so differently than other gear upgrades are.This fix is not about "leaving the other arrow tiers in the past because they are broken," as far as I can tell.  The fix is to fix all arrow tiers and arrow mechanics across the board.
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Old 02-29-2008, 07:10 PM   #35
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Thank goodness I decided to check the boards today.  I was gonna start the betrayal quest for no reason!I don't post much, but this news is surely cause for a post!I know many have said they can't speak for the ranger community, but I guarantee that we are ALL thankful for this news.EDIT:PS I chose to ignore all the bickering about DT ammo and such, just let a t8 bow work like a t8 bow! Be happy all!
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Old 02-29-2008, 08:29 PM   #36
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You guys missed the most important fix of all though.  Your nice little hawk friend will no longer break stealth SMILEY
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Old 02-29-2008, 08:47 PM   #37
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LOL. Let me guess; fixing the borked 'old utility' is what you meant by 'new utility'? Altho, I do appreciate you fixing the hawk, that's awesome. I will just laugh my butt off if that is what you meant by giving us a little utility (finally fixing the hawk).
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Old 02-29-2008, 08:54 PM   #38
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At least it is a step forward...  not a big step but any movement in the right direction is better then what u guys been getting lately..
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Old 02-29-2008, 08:58 PM   #39
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Aeralick... this may be more "behind the scenes" than you care to share with us, but could you go into a little more detail about bows such as RSB being functionally higher level than they list?  You said RSB is functions at level 74.  Has this always been the case?  Are other bows in similar situations (maybe Eagle's Talon, or other Fabled bows)?  Do we ever get to find out what level a bow "functions" as if all we are told is it's "equipable" level?  It seems like there's a lot of room for monkeying with equipment behind the scenes that could completely break any sort of mathmatical analysis we try to perform (such as my bow list).Could a Ranger out there that owns a RSB and has a firm grasp of the /weaponstats take a look at this claim and see if we can come up with some hard evidence?
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Old 02-29-2008, 08:58 PM   #40
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[email protected] DLere wrote:
So what if it's a consumable?  That's an arbitrary distinction, as far as I can tell.  As a counterexample to your implied argument that consumables are/should be treated differently, Poisoned Seeds of the Tender are a T7 raid consumable and are still better than than T8 caustic.When you talk about me using my summoned arrows for free, you are merely attacking my motive (a fallacy of moral reasoning), not addressing my argument.  Yes, I am using my DT summoned arrows for free and thus making them rated level 80 would benefit me, but that does not mean you get to simply throw my whole argument out.  Tell me why it makes sense that arrow upgrades across tiers should be treated so differently than other gear upgrades are.This fix is not about "leaving the other arrow tiers in the past because they are broken," as far as I can tell.  The fix is to fix all arrow tiers and arrow mechanics across the board.
I think he is simply talking of Philosphy, and I can see his point.  The Ranger, more than many classes, is closely tied to the crafting system.  For the crafting system to remain as valid as it is that means there needs to be a reason for a Raid Ranger to want to buy arrows vs. just use a summoned item.  The Summoned arrow comes with a benefit, free damage on demand.  The crafted arrow needs to come with a benefit in order to make spending gold on it worth the expense.  In this case superior damage.  At least thats how I would express it and I think this does meet a level of logical reasoning.
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Old 02-29-2008, 09:16 PM   #41
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Aeralik wrote:
Andok wrote:
That sucks.  I just finished making my Aeralik Voodoo doll and I didn't get a chance to use it.   SMILEY
Lies! I felt that sharp pain in my back!  Anyways another wonderful milestone reached now that I have my own voodoo doll SMILEY
Give it a poke for the horribly underpowered rogue (brig/swash) mythicals.  SMILEY
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Old 02-29-2008, 09:29 PM   #42
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[email protected] DLere wrote:
Additionally, it's difficult for me to reconcile Aeralik's statements yesterday with his previous statements and even with themselves.  Previously, he said the fix we would see is not a straight bump of arrows to level 80, but yesterday that's exactly what he said we would see.  Perhaps he's changed his position since then, and if so, grats on manning up. 

I suspect that the difference is that Scott Hartsman is gone and the new producer has ordered them to "stop making us all look like idiots and fix the ****ing arrows...now".

Wherein lies the problem.

Nothing in what was said tells me that Aeralik or any other Dev really *gets it*.  Even the new producer probably only is forcing a fix from a CS standpoint to quiet us down.  So I expect a slight increase in DPS from these changes...at best.  I do not see that they *get* the entire concept of raid desirability and how that operates to severely impact rangers.

-- I don't think they *get* how they over-nerfed rangers coming out of DoF when they changed the proc mechanics the last time and failed to compensate rangers appropriately.

-- I don't think they *get* how their abandonment of the entire DPS Tier model and the resulting situation where most previously designated "tier 2" dps classes equal or better ranger dps adversely affected rangers who have ZERO raid utility.

-- I don't think the *get* how the imbalanced itemization in EoF and RoK with the relative absence of equivalent gear that provides ranged +crit or +DA has disproportionately affected rangers who rely on autoattack for 50%-60% of their dps.

-- I don't think they *get* how the imbalace of other class' buffs, with most not affecting ranged combat, has disproportionally affected rangers and lowered our dps even further.

In summary, I still don't think they *get it* when it comes to the fact that with the game as it is, unless ranger dps is increased to become  significantly greater than every other class, our total lack of utility will still leave us in a not desirable category for raids.

Oh, I'll take the bone thrown to me of an arrow fix.  But don't think for a minute that I'll stop barking until the fundamantal issue is addressed.

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Old 03-01-2008, 12:06 AM   #43
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something i dont get here... they are going to fix the issue, weather or not its where it should be, but its a fix... so how about everyone that is still complaining about the class, shut up see what happens or QUIT!! I look at these forums mainly for information about how to play better or for questions. But every time i turn around there is a new post about arrow mechanics... So for all you fricken babies out there, quit or shut the hell up!!!
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Old 03-01-2008, 12:45 AM   #44
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[email protected] DLere wrote:
[email protected] DLere wrote:
So what if it's a consumable?  That's an arbitrary distinction, as far as I can tell.  As a counterexample to your implied argument that consumables are/should be treated differently, Poisoned Seeds of the Tender are a T7 raid consumable and are still better than than T8 caustic.When you talk about me using my summoned arrows for free, you are merely attacking my motive (a fallacy of moral reasoning), not addressing my argument.  Yes, I am using my DT summoned arrows for free and thus making them rated level 80 would benefit me, but that does not mean you get to simply throw my whole argument out.  Tell me why it makes sense that arrow upgrades across tiers should be treated so differently than other gear upgrades are.This fix is not about "leaving the other arrow tiers in the past because they are broken," as far as I can tell.  The fix is to fix all arrow tiers and arrow mechanics across the board.
I think he is simply talking of Philosphy, and I can see his point.  The Ranger, more than many classes, is closely tied to the crafting system.  For the crafting system to remain as valid as it is that means there needs to be a reason for a Raid Ranger to want to buy arrows vs. just use a summoned item.  The Summoned arrow comes with a benefit, free damage on demand.  The crafted arrow needs to come with a benefit in order to make spending gold on it worth the expense.  In this case superior damage.  At least thats how I would express it and I think this does meet a level of logical reasoning.
Well this isn't really an argument specifically against having DT arrows scale to 80, but rather an argument against the whole concept of high-end summoned arrows that are better than handcrafted arrows.  Essentially, this is an argument against the whole concept of item progression as it relates to arrows.  At the solo/group level, all rangers have a choice between unlimited summoned makeshift arrows and handcrafted arrows that they pay for.  I would say that in the spirit of proper item progression, there should be a similar choice, with better options, at the raid level.  Basically, I liked the system that existed at the end of T7 (though the solo options should have always yielded full damage efficiency).  You had summoned makeshift < handcrafted < DT summoned < tenderwood.  At the raid level, rangers still had a choice between unlimited summoned arrows and crafted arrows that they "paid" for (by buying seeds with DKP or whatever).  It's just that the options were better than the solo-based options.  Thus, having raid-obtained summoned arrows is consistent with item progression and with the arrow choice rangers face at the solo level, assuming you also implement raid-obtained crafted arrows.  Even if you don't implement these raid-obtained crafted arrows, it still makes sense to implement high-end summoned arrows because it's dumb to make raiding rangers (for whom makeshift arrows are simply an unacceptable option, seeing as how they have a negative hit bonus, and the ranger class using so many more arrows than anyone else) pay so much on such a consistent basis with no way of getting relief.Whether or not raiding rangers should get to "skip" the solo-based T8 choice is another issue entirely.  As I've said before, based on the item progression patterns that exist with respect to every other kind of gear, the answer is yes.Also, even with high-end summoned arrows available from raid targets, woodworker arrows will always have a role in the economy.  Rangers without access to high-end summoned arrows will need handcrafted arrows, rangers with access to high-end summoned arrows will need the high-end raid arrows made by woodworkers (assuming you implement these), and other classes will also need handcrafted arrows (in somewhat limited quantities).  There is simply no need, from a crafting/economy point of view, to make all rangers and only rangers so permanently and desperately dependent on woodworker crafted arrows.-Azleya, Ranger and Officer of StrikeLucan D'Lere
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Old 03-01-2008, 03:00 AM   #45
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Aeralik wrote:
You guys missed the most important fix of all though.  Your nice little hawk friend will no longer break stealth SMILEY
That's awesome!
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Old 03-01-2008, 03:02 AM   #46
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[email protected] wrote:
Aeralick... this may be more "behind the scenes" than you care to share with us, but could you go into a little more detail about bows such as RSB being functionally higher level than they list?  You said RSB is functions at level 74.  Has this always been the case?  Are other bows in similar situations (maybe Eagle's Talon, or other Fabled bows)?  Do we ever get to find out what level a bow "functions" as if all we are told is it's "equipable" level?  It seems like there's a lot of room for monkeying with equipment behind the scenes that could completely break any sort of mathmatical analysis we try to perform (such as my bow list).Could a Ranger out there that owns a RSB and has a firm grasp of the /weaponstats take a look at this claim and see if we can come up with some hard evidence?

Correct me if I am wrong... but the quality of an item that is normal per level is at treasured. So a level 70 treasured item is what is normal for a level 70 to have, and it functions at its own level. The legendary, functions as an item a level higher than treasured... so it functions like a 71 treasured, even though its flagged as a 70 legendary. Fabled would be level 72-74 treasured depending on the tier of the fabled, and Mythical would be 5 levels above and higher (possibly 10 judging on what we have seen of them so far).

This is a mechanic we all knew from long ago, so I don't think Aerelik was hinting at something deeper than that. However, if he wants to explain that himself, I would be more than happy to hear him out.

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Old 03-01-2008, 03:52 AM   #47
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Well, no matter how it came about; there are changes on the horizon. That makes me a happy ranger. Aeralik has said previously that they plan on discussing the changes with us before putting them live. I'd say that means between now and GU 44 we have much to discuss. Yes, we'd like him to explain more about how bow / ammo levels work and how we could approach the issue of rangers knowing exactly how to evaluate upgrades to their weapons.

I am also as curious as others are about the seemingly hidden message about procs. As soon as I read that it sounded to me like proc mechanics are changing. Is this good or bad? We won't know until it's explained further.

But, at this point I'd say let's remain calm and rational. I'm as excited as anyone, I wanted to shout it to the world.. rangers are getting some fixes!! SMILEY Everyone take a deeep breath. The answers are bound to come, if they discuss this with us before implementing them, as they said they would. It does sound like they have put some thought into all of the issues we've been clamoring about: ammo; procs; utility; broken class spells.

That's really all our major issues. Now we just need to discuss the how and how not to fix them. It's a huge step in the right direction guys n gals. I'm as skeptical as the next person, but, let's wait and hear what he has to say about it all before we start asking them to tweak the tweaks SMILEY.

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Old 03-01-2008, 06:17 AM   #48
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[email protected] DLere wrote:
[email protected] DLere wrote:
[email protected] DLere wrote:
So what if it's a consumable?  That's an arbitrary distinction, as far as I can tell.  As a counterexample to your implied argument that consumables are/should be treated differently, Poisoned Seeds of the Tender are a T7 raid consumable and are still better than than T8 caustic.When you talk about me using my summoned arrows for free, you are merely attacking my motive (a fallacy of moral reasoning), not addressing my argument.  Yes, I am using my DT summoned arrows for free and thus making them rated level 80 would benefit me, but that does not mean you get to simply throw my whole argument out.  Tell me why it makes sense that arrow upgrades across tiers should be treated so differently than other gear upgrades are.This fix is not about "leaving the other arrow tiers in the past because they are broken," as far as I can tell.  The fix is to fix all arrow tiers and arrow mechanics across the board.
I think he is simply talking of Philosphy, and I can see his point.  The Ranger, more than many classes, is closely tied to the crafting system.  For the crafting system to remain as valid as it is that means there needs to be a reason for a Raid Ranger to want to buy arrows vs. just use a summoned item.  The Summoned arrow comes with a benefit, free damage on demand.  The crafted arrow needs to come with a benefit in order to make spending gold on it worth the expense.  In this case superior damage.  At least thats how I would express it and I think this does meet a level of logical reasoning.
Well this isn't really an argument specifically against having DT arrows scale to 80, but rather an argument against the whole concept of high-end summoned arrows that are better than handcrafted arrows.  Essentially, this is an argument against the whole concept of item progression as it relates to arrows.  At the solo/group level, all rangers have a choice between unlimited summoned makeshift arrows and handcrafted arrows that they pay for.  I would say that in the spirit of proper item progression, there should be a similar choice, with better options, at the raid level.  Basically, I liked the system that existed at the end of T7 (though the solo options should have always yielded full damage efficiency).  You had summoned makeshift < handcrafted < DT summoned < tenderwood.  At the raid level, rangers still had a choice between unlimited summoned arrows and crafted arrows that they "paid" for (by buying seeds with DKP or whatever).  It's just that the options were better than the solo-based options.  Thus, having raid-obtained summoned arrows is consistent with item progression and with the arrow choice rangers face at the solo level, assuming you also implement raid-obtained crafted arrows.  Even if you don't implement these raid-obtained crafted arrows, it still makes sense to implement high-end summoned arrows because it's dumb to make raiding rangers (for whom makeshift arrows are simply an unacceptable option, seeing as how they have a negative hit bonus, and the ranger class using so many more arrows than anyone else) pay so much on such a consistent basis with no way of getting relief.Whether or not raiding rangers should get to "skip" the solo-based T8 choice is another issue entirely.  As I've said before, based on the item progression patterns that exist with respect to every other kind of gear, the answer is yes.Also, even with high-end summoned arrows available from raid targets, woodworker arrows will always have a role in the economy.  Rangers without access to high-end summoned arrows will need handcrafted arrows, rangers with access to high-end summoned arrows will need the high-end raid arrows made by woodworkers (assuming you implement these), and other classes will also need handcrafted arrows (in somewhat limited quantities).  There is simply no need, from a crafting/economy point of view, to make all rangers and only rangers so permanently and desperately dependent on woodworker crafted arrows.-Azleya, Ranger and Officer of StrikeLucan D'Lere

I think there would be a number of reasons to disagree with this.  While EQ2 does indeed have raiding, it is NOT a raid based game alla WoW or the soon to be released Age of Conan.  Raiding is an added feature.  Since the Dev's see this as a RP game with raid elements and PvP elements thrown in to try and make it palatable to the same guys and gals that WoW they need to balance the Raid aspects with the non-raid aspects.  SO I am guessing the logic is as follows and I can see the point(s), though I could (and probably am) completely wrong. 

Equivilent "quality" bows and arrows do more base damage than the HtH counter parts.  So you get a perfect reason for other classes to cry about Rangers having an unfair advantage and we get nerfed.  Next the unlimited arrow items from Raids provide a unique and exceptional utility for that character, however they do not want raiders to get to much over the non-raiders than they already are with the Bows, armor, shields etc. themselves.  People have come to EQ2 (not I, but I know more than a few) from other MMO's because they did not want to be in a game where they felt 2nd class just because they did not Raid.  If you allow such items to do as much damage as crafted items then you would be heading down that path, a path that the Dev's don't want to see because this game is supposed to be the "Anti-WoW".

Additionally we still run into the other issue.  Once you get an item like that (even as a raider) why bother buying arrows?  There needs to be logic as to that, just as there is occassionally logic to buy other crafted items, simply as part of game balance.  Yes item progression is a valid concern, I just don't think the only one.  If however the dev's were to address this issue using only that logic (and not also the logic I noted above) then I would suggest simply creating another item that would be raided for in Kunark Instances, not simply increase the items already found in what are technically "lower" tiers.  The reason they are jumping up crafted arrows, and not doing this, is because it would require creating new receipies and possibly even new harvestables.  The fix they have articulated is simply the easiest one to code.  Heck depending on how they have arrows coded it may even include your summoned arrows, so you may have nothing to worry about.   One of the biggest complaints from many Rangers about us not being top of the parse is the mere fact we have to spend money on arrows, poisons etc. to do the damage we do.  To turn around as say its wrong "to make all rangers and only rangers so permanently and desperately dependent on woodworker crafted arrows" is to invalidate one of the MAIN reasons for us to get the damage bump.  The other classes have equally reasonable issues about us being top of the parse in that we do our damage at range and thus are "safer" in a relative sense.  This issue of expense is one of the things we can bring up to counter this argument.  Get rid of that and it could be nerf time again.

Believe me Rangers need work and I am glad to see the work is being done.  I just think that increasing such items wholesale opens a can of worms thats better closed in SO many different ways. 

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Old 03-01-2008, 11:56 AM   #49
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Anyone else get the feeling that LU44 will come out April 1st?  SMILEY

They are addressing the hawk, procs, arrows, CA damage.  Seems too good to be true.

How about the range restriction on Coverage that conflicts with the Mythical epic?   (I even hate bringing it up with all the good things getting done.)

About DT/Tenderwood ammo.  They are T8 ammo, they should work with level 80 bows.  We do not need more confusion with regards to ammo.  T8 ammo should work with bows up to 80 (period).  We don't need to have another chart on this board that lists T8 ammo that does and does not work with a level 80 bow.

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Old 03-01-2008, 02:09 PM   #50
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[email protected] DLere wrote:
[email protected] DLere wrote:
[email protected] DLere wrote:
[email protected] DLere wrote:
So what if it's a consumable?  That's an arbitrary distinction, as far as I can tell.  As a counterexample to your implied argument that consumables are/should be treated differently, Poisoned Seeds of the Tender are a T7 raid consumable and are still better than than T8 caustic.When you talk about me using my summoned arrows for free, you are merely attacking my motive (a fallacy of moral reasoning), not addressing my argument.  Yes, I am using my DT summoned arrows for free and thus making them rated level 80 would benefit me, but that does not mean you get to simply throw my whole argument out.  Tell me why it makes sense that arrow upgrades across tiers should be treated so differently than other gear upgrades are.This fix is not about "leaving the other arrow tiers in the past because they are broken," as far as I can tell.  The fix is to fix all arrow tiers and arrow mechanics across the board.
I think he is simply talking of Philosphy, and I can see his point.  The Ranger, more than many classes, is closely tied to the crafting system.  For the crafting system to remain as valid as it is that means there needs to be a reason for a Raid Ranger to want to buy arrows vs. just use a summoned item.  The Summoned arrow comes with a benefit, free damage on demand.  The crafted arrow needs to come with a benefit in order to make spending gold on it worth the expense.  In this case superior damage.  At least thats how I would express it and I think this does meet a level of logical reasoning.
Well this isn't really an argument specifically against having DT arrows scale to 80, but rather an argument against the whole concept of high-end summoned arrows that are better than handcrafted arrows.  Essentially, this is an argument against the whole concept of item progression as it relates to arrows.  At the solo/group level, all rangers have a choice between unlimited summoned makeshift arrows and handcrafted arrows that they pay for.  I would say that in the spirit of proper item progression, there should be a similar choice, with better options, at the raid level.  Basically, I liked the system that existed at the end of T7 (though the solo options should have always yielded full damage efficiency).  You had summoned makeshift < handcrafted < DT summoned < tenderwood.  At the raid level, rangers still had a choice between unlimited summoned arrows and crafted arrows that they "paid" for (by buying seeds with DKP or whatever).  It's just that the options were better than the solo-based options.  Thus, having raid-obtained summoned arrows is consistent with item progression and with the arrow choice rangers face at the solo level, assuming you also implement raid-obtained crafted arrows.  Even if you don't implement these raid-obtained crafted arrows, it still makes sense to implement high-end summoned arrows because it's dumb to make raiding rangers (for whom makeshift arrows are simply an unacceptable option, seeing as how they have a negative hit bonus, and the ranger class using so many more arrows than anyone else) pay so much on such a consistent basis with no way of getting relief.Whether or not raiding rangers should get to "skip" the solo-based T8 choice is another issue entirely.  As I've said before, based on the item progression patterns that exist with respect to every other kind of gear, the answer is yes.Also, even with high-end summoned arrows available from raid targets, woodworker arrows will always have a role in the economy.  Rangers without access to high-end summoned arrows will need handcrafted arrows, rangers with access to high-end summoned arrows will need the high-end raid arrows made by woodworkers (assuming you implement these), and other classes will also need handcrafted arrows (in somewhat limited quantities).  There is simply no need, from a crafting/economy point of view, to make all rangers and only rangers so permanently and desperately dependent on woodworker crafted arrows.-Azleya, Ranger and Officer of StrikeLucan D'Lere

I think there would be a number of reasons to disagree with this.  While EQ2 does indeed have raiding, it is NOT a raid based game alla WoW or the soon to be released Age of Conan.  Raiding is an added feature.  Since the Dev's see this as a RP game with raid elements and PvP elements thrown in to try and make it palatable to the same guys and gals that WoW they need to balance the Raid aspects with the non-raid aspects.  SO I am guessing the logic is as follows and I can see the point(s), though I could (and probably am) completely wrong. 

Equivilent "quality" bows and arrows do more base damage than the HtH counter parts.  So you get a perfect reason for other classes to cry about Rangers having an unfair advantage and we get nerfed.  Next the unlimited arrow items from Raids provide a unique and exceptional utility for that character, however they do not want raiders to get to much over the non-raiders than they already are with the Bows, armor, shields etc. themselves.  People have come to EQ2 (not I, but I know more than a few) from other MMO's because they did not want to be in a game where they felt 2nd class just because they did not Raid.  If you allow such items to do as much damage as crafted items then you would be heading down that path, a path that the Dev's don't want to see because this game is supposed to be the "Anti-WoW".

Additionally we still run into the other issue.  Once you get an item like that (even as a raider) why bother buying arrows?  There needs to be logic as to that, just as there is occassionally logic to buy other crafted items, simply as part of game balance.  Yes item progression is a valid concern, I just don't think the only one.  If however the dev's were to address this issue using only that logic (and not also the logic I noted above) then I would suggest simply creating another item that would be raided for in Kunark Instances, not simply increase the items already found in what are technically "lower" tiers.  The reason they are jumping up crafted arrows, and not doing this, is because it would require creating new receipies and possibly even new harvestables.  The fix they have articulated is simply the easiest one to code.  Heck depending on how they have arrows coded it may even include your summoned arrows, so you may have nothing to worry about.   One of the biggest complaints from many Rangers about us not being top of the parse is the mere fact we have to spend money on arrows, poisons etc. to do the damage we do.  To turn around as say its wrong "to make all rangers and only rangers so permanently and desperately dependent on woodworker crafted arrows" is to invalidate one of the MAIN reasons for us to get the damage bump.  The other classes have equally reasonable issues about us being top of the parse in that we do our damage at range and thus are "safer" in a relative sense.  This issue of expense is one of the things we can bring up to counter this argument.  Get rid of that and it could be nerf time again.

Believe me Rangers need work and I am glad to see the work is being done.  I just think that increasing such items wholesale opens a can of worms thats better closed in SO many different ways. 

With your first paragraph, you're basically telling me that raiders aren't entitled to the same level of design quality as non-raiders.  This is a really, really terrible argument for what should be painfully obvious reasons.  For me and many others, eq2 absolutely is a raid-based game.  Don't be so dismissive of the significance of raiding in this game, because it is very significant.Bows do not do inherently more damage (over time) than their melee counterparts.  Run the numbers.  I have.  And if you think non-raiders aren't already 2nd class to raiders with respect to gear, then well I'm not sure what you've been smoking.  Just inspect me next time you see me.  Raiders do have, have had, and as far as I can tell always will have access to better gear than non-raiders, and for good reason.  The additional time, effort, and organization raiding requires must be properly incentivized by gear upgrades in order for raid guilds to be able to attract recruits.  Furthermore, a large part of being able to design progressively more difficult encounters is having proper gear progression to go along with the encounter progression.  Upgraded arrows from raids are just a part of this item progression.  So let's please not turn this thread into yet another rehash of "raiders shouldn't get better gear than soloers," because it's really a stupid argument and the design decision that has been made is obviously to maintain the paradigm of raiders getting better gear for the most part.With respect to your 3rd paragraph, please actually take 2 minutes to read what I wrote already.  Arrow-summoning items do not make woodworker arrows irrelevant, and if you also implement high-end crafted arrows (a la tenderwood), woodworkers remain relevant even for the raiders who have the arrow-summoning items.  And I have seen no evidence that indicates to me that the devs have ever attributed some kind of rightful dps advantage to rangers due to the arrow costs that they have above every other class.  On the contrary, my sense is that the devs don't want any one class to have a large dps advantage over all the others, in which case they need to bring other aspects of the ranger class up to par.  This means, essentially, increased utility and ways of getting relief from arrow costs.  Arrow-summoning items should be a part of this.I really, really hate going around in circles, so if you're going to argue with me, please actually bring up new arguments that I haven't already addressed, or else well-reasoned objections to my arguments or the ways in which I've addressed arguments.-Azleya, Ranger and Officer of StrikeLucan D'Lere
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Old 03-01-2008, 02:59 PM   #51
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[email protected]... what game have you been playing? EQ2 is a roleplayers game with some raiding? If you ever was a part of a typical guild, you would know that raiding is essential to the typical EQ2 player. As for roleplayers..they are rare.
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Old 03-01-2008, 03:34 PM   #52
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RoXxer wrote:
[email protected]... what game have you been playing? EQ2 is a roleplayers game with some raiding? If you ever was a part of a typical guild, you would know that raiding is essential to the typical EQ2 player. As for roleplayers..they are rare.

Well the Guild I am in, is a lvl 55 Guild that raids maybe once a week.  I personally raid more than that (I know members of other Guilds that know I'm decent and let me tag along), and on occassion get the wierd look thrown at me by my guild mates because I have "solo" gear and "raid" gear etc.  But do a Guild search sometime on the servers and see how many "Roleplaying Guilds" you find.  There will be a lot, with the possible exception of PvP servers maybe.  Perhaps on your server it doesn't  happen but I can't go a day without a complete stranger trying to interact with me socially, even if its just waiting for the Boat to Kunark in Antonica.  Also If you read the whole thing, even if the game really isn't this way (and in my experience it is), it is sorta how the Dev's see it.  They see it as the anti-WoW, they see it as a game that encourages Role Playing, whether or not its the reality many of the Dev's see the game that way.  Heck we rangers have been struggling with our class for this very simple reason, the Dev's tend to see things differently than many of the players 

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Old 03-01-2008, 03:46 PM   #53
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W t f?  There is absolutely no evidence that the devs see this as a primarily roleplaying game in which other forms of play are to take a back seat.  You are making baseless assertions.Furthermore, roleplaying issues have absolutely nothing to do with arrow progression.  As far as I can tell, you're merely using this thread to pump up your own chosen style of play.  Stop with the gratuitous self-aggrandizement and stay on topic.
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Old 03-01-2008, 04:02 PM   #54
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[email protected] DLere wrote:
With your first paragraph, you're basically telling me that raiders aren't entitled to the same level of design quality as non-raiders.  This is a really, really terrible argument for what should be painfully obvious reasons.  For me and many others, eq2 absolutely is a raid-based game.  Don't be so dismissive of the significance of raiding in this game, because it is very significant....I have.  And if you think non-raiders aren't already 2nd class to raiders with respect to gear, then well I'm not sure what you've been smoking.  Just inspect me next time you see me.  Raiders do have, have had, and as far as I can tell always will have access to better gear than non-raiders, and for good reason.  The additional time, effort, and organization raiding requires must be properly incentivized by gear upgrades in order for raid guilds to be able to attract recruits.  Furthermore, a large part of being able to design progressively more difficult encounters is having proper gear progression to go along with the encounter progression.  Upgraded arrows from raids are just a part of this item progression.  So let's please not turn this thread into yet another rehash of "raiders shouldn't get better gear than soloers," because it's really a stupid argument and the design decision that has been made is obviously to maintain the paradigm of raiders getting better gear for the most part.With respect to your 3rd paragraph, please actually take 2 minutes to read what I wrote already.  Arrow-summoning items do not make woodworker arrows irrelevant, and if you also implement high-end crafted arrows (a la tenderwood), woodworkers remain relevant even for the raiders who have the arrow-summoning items.  And I have seen no evidence that indicates to me that the devs have ever attributed some kind of rightful dps advantage to rangers due to the arrow costs that they have above every other class.  On the contrary, my sense is that the devs don't want any one class to have a large dps advantage over all the others, in which case they need to bring other aspects of the ranger class up to par.  This means, essentially, increased utility and ways of getting relief from arrow costs.  Arrow-summoning items should be a part of this.I really, really hate going around in circles, so if you're going to argue with me, please actually bring up new arguments that I haven't already addressed, or else well-reasoned objections to my arguments or the ways in which I've addressed arguments.-Azleya, Ranger and Officer of StrikeLucan D'Lere

I may have also not expresssed the following clearly, some of my reasoning is putting myself in the dev's shoes. SMILEY.  Let me just say I AGREE with you that raiders should get more and better stuff because they raid.  Heck I said that.  I have some decent raid gear myself from.  I just think at some point a balance or compromise needs to be struck.  This does not necessarily mean having Soloers and raiders being "equal" in terms of gear, only that you need to take into account the fact that there are Soloers and small groupers out there and try to not completely alienate them. 

While we who raid are often the most fanatical and thus most vocal players, the majority of SOE's money doesn't come from the fanatic but rather the casual gamer, SOE knows this and its in their business model and thus their game development.  Whether we like it or not SOE is in this to make money and thus they need to make the most people happy with out alienating others.  That means sometimes someone takes a hit.  So you prioritize what you want.  I LOVE summoned arrows, they are cheaper (I don't say free because of all of the work that goes into getting them), but if that needs to take a hit to fix other things so be it.  I won't die without summoned arrows.  In Kunark I am making plat hand over fist just doing quests and killing things, don't even count what I am making on the broker.

Also I never said that the dev's attributed a DPS advantage to us for buying arrows.  What I said was this is one of OUR gripes "You make us pay for arrows and what do we get for it?"  Its one of the few arguments, beyond broken mechanics, that can get any traction with a recalcitrant dev AND can counter the whining of other classes about us.  We all know what their whining is so I won't belabor that point.  

Lastly as I said, if they were to do this upgrade (and while I think its not necessary I wouldn't cry if they did) I just think it shouldn't be straight bump on items already in existance.  Crafted arrows are getting a straight bump only from a coding simplicity issue.  If you want true and proper progression of what is a magical item, t8 (or 9 depending on how you calculate) summoned arrows need to be a new item.  If you do a straight bump on it then you run into "what about my throwing knives...axes.... shurikens....waaaahhhh"  I don't want SOE to have an excuse to turn around and do a ninja nerf after 2 month because they don't want to here the other classes complain about us anymore.  Thats how we got into the state we are in now.   After all of the crap thats happened in this game perhaps I've become a bit too much of a cynic and simply will take whatever I can get, rather than asking for what we REALLY should be getting, fearing they'll just take it away once the other classes whine.

Regardless happy raiding.

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Old 03-01-2008, 04:12 PM   #55
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I'm not willing to "take a hit" with respect to arrow progression because some soloers have a hard time dealing with raiders having better gear.  If I accepted this hit, rangers would be the one class taking this significant raid dps hit (as no other class relies on arrows to any great extent), and that is simply not acceptable to me.I simply haven't seen rangers' arrow costs carrying significant weight with the devs when it comes to dps balance, though I could be wrong about that.I disagree that the DT summoned arrows should not qualify as level 80 arrows, though I certainly do favor implementing new raid-dropped arrow-summoning items.  As I've already said (several times), raid drops from the previous tier routinely remain as good as or better than solo gear from the new tier.  I would say that the DT/tenderwood arrows should become totally obsolete (via arrow-level-based damage penalties) in T9.Also, the Membranous Spine Sheath from DT summons throwing ammo on par with the DT summoned arrows.
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Old 03-01-2008, 07:02 PM   #56
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I may be misunderstanding the arguments here, but from what I can see the only reason to want some sort of new ammo for T8 is to ensure other "non worthy" Rangers don't parse as high as the "worthy" ones. Please don't try to tell me it's a question of costs. If anyone needs help with costs it's the casual players not the uber raiders. The uber raider will always be the best Ranger in game. This is because they will have a) best bow b) best spells c) best equipment d) best group makeup e) best knowledge of how to play the class, and that's exactly how the game should work.I don't see any need for another method to ensure their continued uberness. That's just complication for the sake of it, and just makes future balancing trickier for the devs.The entire reason for raid obtained arrows was to reduce costs and fix the high-end Ranger's DPS due to broken mechanics. We had the fix for costs (CAs don't use arrows), and the broken mechanics will be fixed in GU44. Isn't it about time we drew a line under all these bodges and got back to a simple game vision, namely: summoned arrows = free but sucky, player made arrows = costs some coin, comes in various flavours, and do the best damage.Why would that be so wrong ?
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Old 03-01-2008, 07:12 PM   #57
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Thank you for your communication and willingness to help on this matter, Aeralik SMILEYI know it has been mentioned before by another dev that even though you guys don't always respond, it doesn't mean you aren't aware and working on the problem.  The problem with that is, tho -- the player base DOES feel ignored if no response is given.  That's why I think the recent live dev IRC chat on Alla's was so nice.  I for one feel much more optimistic about where things are going, and I suspect many others are, too.Now, like this thread says, we're gonna hold you to all of what you said SMILEY
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Old 03-01-2008, 10:02 PM   #58
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Timtim wrote:
I may be misunderstanding the arguments here, but from what I can see the only reason to want some sort of new ammo for T8 is to ensure other "non worthy" Rangers don't parse as high as the "worthy" ones. Please don't try to tell me it's a question of costs. If anyone needs help with costs it's the casual players not the uber raiders. The uber raider will always be the best Ranger in game. This is because they will have a) best bow b) best spells c) best equipment d) best group makeup e) best knowledge of how to play the class, and that's exactly how the game should work.I don't see any need for another method to ensure their continued uberness. That's just complication for the sake of it, and just makes future balancing trickier for the devs.The entire reason for raid obtained arrows was to reduce costs and fix the high-end Ranger's DPS due to broken mechanics. We had the fix for costs (CAs don't use arrows), and the broken mechanics will be fixed in GU44. Isn't it about time we drew a line under all these bodges and got back to a simple game vision, namely: summoned arrows = free but sucky, player made arrows = costs some coin, comes in various flavours, and do the best damage.Why would that be so wrong ?
Ffs, I have already explained all this in previous posts.  Take the time to read.  It's not unnecessary complication and it's not a new way of distinguishing raiders from soloers; it's just a continuation in T8 of what has already been in place for some time.  As a matter of fact, even with the continued existence of high-end, raid-obtained arrows in T8, solo arrows will now be closer to raid arrows than they were in T7 due to the across-the-board fix to arrow mechanics.  Furthermore, if you think arrow costs have been "fixed", you are sorely mistaken.  They may have been somewhat reduced, but they are still significant.  Raid-obtained summoned arrows serve as a way of distinguishing raid ranger dps from solo ranger dps (a somewhat modest distinction now that all arrows will work at full damage efficiency), and this distinction has been part of combat balance for some time already, and, more importantly, they serve to provide relief to raid rangers from arrow costs.  Solo rangers have a choice between their makeshift summoned arrows and handcrafted arrows.  For the soloer, both of these options are viable due to the nature of the content they are doing.  For the raid ranger, however, makeshift arrows are simply never a viable option.  Thus, lacking any raid-obtainable summoned arrows that are at least on par with handcrafted, you doom every raid ranger to constantly paying for massive amounts of arrows.  There should also, however, be some arrow cost for the raid ranger, which is where raid-obtained crafted arrows come in (i.e. tenderwood).  If you implement raid-obtained crafted arrows in T8, the raid ranger must choose between his raid-obtained summoned arrows and the raid-obtained crafted arrows, for which he must pay dkp or whatever for the main component (Seed of Growth or whatever), as well as commission a woodworker to make them for him.  Thus, continuing to implement both raid-obtained summoned arrows and raid-obtained crafted arrows not only continues to serve to distinguish solo rangers from raid rangers, but is the only way (as far as I can tell) to present the raid ranger with a similar arrow consumption choice as the one the solo ranger faces and not excessively burden the raid ranger with arrow costs.
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Old 03-02-2008, 06:27 AM   #59
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[email protected] DLere wrote:
I simply haven't seen rangers' arrow costs carrying significant weight with the devs when it comes to dps balance, though I could be wrong about that.
That was part of the reasoning of the Devs from near the beginning, prior to the summoned stuff.  You are top of the parse and do so safer at range, so pay for your arrows, thats the trade off.  That is what made that part of our "why aren't we top any more" lexicon.  Whether that is what goes through their minds now?  I'm just drawing a chain of logic through the expansions.
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Old 03-02-2008, 06:40 AM   #60
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[email protected] DLere wrote:
W t f?  There is absolutely no evidence that the devs see this as a primarily roleplaying game in which other forms of play are to take a back seat.  You are making baseless assertions.Furthermore, roleplaying issues have absolutely nothing to do with arrow progression.  As far as I can tell, you're merely using this thread to pump up your own chosen style of play.  Stop with the gratuitous self-aggrandizement and stay on topic.

As for that I am only a casual a roleplayer I just want to have fun, raids soloing, a little rp whatever gets me through the day.  I know many of people who are HARD core roleplayers and want them to be happy as well.  Since I play all sides of the fence I see all the points and try to find a balance between them. 

Also while trying to avoid it myself since you brought it up, it can be easily said that you are simply trying to "pump up" you style of play, wouldn't you say.  I know you will have logical reasons as to why I am wrong "we put in more time, more effort, more organization" etc.  This however can EASILY be said by many of the hardcore RP guilds on the RP servers, who put just as much time, effort and organization into doing smaller instances with a lot more roleplaying thrown in.  

Again I will say this is a MMO computer game with raid elements, not a Raid MMO.  There are some out there and EQ2 only started adding the major raid elements when the more raid oriented games started taking market share.  That would be proof enough that this game was designed as more for the casual player AND rper than the hard core raider.  BTW I never said it was only developed for the RPer, if it was I wouldn't be here, I was just trying to say this game isn't the sole purvue of raiders which we sometimes forget.  That being the case we as players should be trying to make this an enjoyable place for EVERYONE.  That means give and take...compromise even on mechanics items etc., not just for interclass but intraclass.

As for the devs saying it can be or is designed to be partially roleplaying focused?  Well when you have this game world created as part of an AD&D roleplaying game, you have Lore coming directly from the characters played in this (especially in some of the epics), heck many of the both minor and major NPC's are their characters and locations are named in memory of them (Lucan D Lere and Vhaylen and his Tower anyone?).  Heck when EQ came out it was heralded as a MMO Roleplaying game where people could do so with hundred or thousands of others.  No one ever came out and said "EQ 2, the end of roleplaying and the birth of SOE power gaming" the called it the new and improved EQ.  On top of that there are "role playing servers".  Hmm I guess they named those servers that so... who would go there?  All of these facts make it a logical deduction that roleplaying is part of their core concept as to what Everquest and EQ2 are about and that they are looking to find balance between the rper, the casual gamer and the raider, which as I have said elsewhere, requires balance and compromise.  Now again rping isn't the only reason (thank god, many a day I just want to raid, crush things and win new shiny gear)but it can not be dismissed out of hand as you appear to do. 

Clearly we are at an "agree to disagree" point and rather than have this thread start resembling something on eq2flames (where I put on my nomex underwear before entering) I think I will gracefully leave before the name calling continues.

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