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Old 12-11-2011, 12:31 AM   #1
Neiloch

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Dungeon mark buyable arrows better than handcrafted yet rangers can't get endless quiver or they just won't get rid of them outright. Discuss.

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Old 12-11-2011, 12:51 AM   #2
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Bloody hell SMILEY

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Old 12-11-2011, 02:07 AM   #3
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[email protected] wrote:

Dungeon mark buyable arrows better than handcrafted yet rangers can't get endless quiver or they just won't get rid of them outright. Discuss.

except where you missed the part where nothing really changes it is still an economic or time disadvantage while rangers buy 100 arrows for 100 marks every other class can keep the marks for something else.

i use the makeshift arrows skill often so i dont have to refill my stock so often but i think the skill could use 40 more base triggers or they could release new mass production arrow recipies on the crafting trainers.

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Old 12-11-2011, 02:25 AM   #4
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General_Info wrote:

[email protected] wrote:

Dungeon mark buyable arrows better than handcrafted yet rangers can't get endless quiver or they just won't get rid of them outright. Discuss.

except where you missed the part where nothing really changes it is still an economic or time disadvantage while rangers buy 100 arrows for 100 marks every other class can keep the marks for something else.

i use the makeshift arrows skill often so i dont have to refill my stock so often but i think the skill could use 40 more base triggers or they could release new mass production arrow recipies on the crafting trainers.

Okay so two things.

1. Those mark arrows are BETTER than handcrafted. So not only does it not contribute to the economy or other crafters (hence my topic) they are outright better. The time consumption is more, but regardless it still negatively impacts the crafter community. So again, either they are hypocrites or they don't actually care about crafters being negatively impacted by arrow alternatives.

2. Are you sure you know how makeshift arrows works now? It does nothing to save arrows, FYI. It makes it so a damage proc goes off ranged hits, not use a trigger instead of using an arrow.

I was on board with some sort of mass production recipe but now its nearly pointless since better arrows are easily acquired just by running player dungeons.

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Old 12-11-2011, 03:43 AM   #5
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[email protected] wrote:

Okay so two things.

1. Those mark arrows are BETTER than handcrafted. So not only does it not contribute to the economy or other crafters (hence my topic) they are outright better. The time consumption is more, but regardless it still negatively impacts the crafter community. So again, either they are hypocrites or they don't actually care about crafters being negatively impacted by arrow alternatives.

2. Are you sure you know how makeshift arrows works now? It does nothing to save arrows, FYI. It makes it so a damage proc goes off ranged hits, not use a trigger instead of using an arrow.

I was on board with some sort of mass production recipe but now its nearly pointless since better arrows are easily acquired just by running player dungeons.

1. it just has +2% hit bonus and +31 crushing over crafted arrows in the long run would that really make a difference?

2. i'm not sure how to measure time/cost of the arrows since the dungeon system is new and people havent worked out the golden number of npcs to maximize mark gain/efficent dungeon building for shorter durations. 

I've done a few of my guildies dungeons the most i have gotten so far in one run is 104 marks. So i could buy 104 arrows with it, now it took about half an hour to do with a three man group. In that time i could have easily made at least 1000 arrows.

The only time i could see people using the dungeon arrows is if they ether have a load of marks with nothing to spend them on or they are PVPing and they want the max out of all their gear and equipment.

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Old 12-11-2011, 03:56 AM   #6
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General_Info wrote:

[email protected] wrote:

Okay so two things.

1. Those mark arrows are BETTER than handcrafted. So not only does it not contribute to the economy or other crafters (hence my topic) they are outright better. The time consumption is more, but regardless it still negatively impacts the crafter community. So again, either they are hypocrites or they don't actually care about crafters being negatively impacted by arrow alternatives.

2. Are you sure you know how makeshift arrows works now? It does nothing to save arrows, FYI. It makes it so a damage proc goes off ranged hits, not use a trigger instead of using an arrow.

I was on board with some sort of mass production recipe but now its nearly pointless since better arrows are easily acquired just by running player dungeons.

1. it just has +2% hit bonus and +31 crushing over crafted arrows in the long run would that really make a difference? For anyone min/maxing ie most raiders and PvPer's, yes it would. They will be crunching numbers to measure the difference exactly. Granted the arrows made from raid drops are even better, but since they are raid drops they have a finite resource pool to deal with opposed to marks and harvestables.

2. i'm not sure how to measure time/cost of the arrows since the dungeon system is new and people havent worked out the golden number of npcs to maximize mark gain/efficent dungeon building for shorter durations. 

I've done a few of my guildies dungeons the most i have gotten so far in one run is 104 marks. So i could buy 104 arrows with it, now it took about half an hour to do with a three man group. In that time i could have easily made at least 1000 arrows. That's like saying 'in the time it takes to kill a raid mob for a fabled bow I could make a bunch of crafted bows keep one and sell the rest.' Their not the same kind of arrows, so that argument is moot. If they were the same you would have a very stong point but they aren't so you don't.

The only time i could see people using the dungeon arrows is if they ether have a load of marks with nothing to spend them on or they are PVPing and raiding and they want the max out of all their gear and equipment. Which is a pretty large percentage of the playerbase.

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Old 12-11-2011, 07:11 AM   #7
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[email protected] wrote:

General_Info wrote:

1. it just has +2% hit bonus and +31 crushing over crafted arrows in the long run would that really make a difference? For anyone min/maxing ie most raiders and PvPer's, yes it would. They will be crunching numbers to measure the difference exactly. Granted the arrows made from raid drops are even better, but since they are raid drops they have a finite resource pool to deal with opposed to marks and harvestables.

2. i'm not sure how to measure time/cost of the arrows since the dungeon system is new and people havent worked out the golden number of npcs to maximize mark gain/efficent dungeon building for shorter durations. 

I've done a few of my guildies dungeons the most i have gotten so far in one run is 104 marks. So i could buy 104 arrows with it, now it took about half an hour to do with a three man group. In that time i could have easily made at least 1000 arrows. That's like saying 'in the time it takes to kill a raid mob for a fabled bow I could make a bunch of crafted bows keep one and sell the rest.' Their not the same kind of arrows, so that argument is moot. If they were the same you would have a very stong point but they aren't so you don't.

The only time i could see people using the dungeon arrows is if they ether have a load of marks with nothing to spend them on or they are PVPing and raiding and they want the max out of all their gear and equipment. Which is a pretty large percentage of the playerbase.

A flawed comparison the difference between the arrows is 2% hit chance and 31 crushing damage per shot where as the damage and stat differences between a crafted bow and a fabled bow of the same tier are greater then the comparison between crafted and mark purchased arrows.

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Old 12-11-2011, 07:17 AM   #8
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The point is the difference can not be compensated for by making more of a lesser item, no matter the quantity. ANY desirable ammo that does not have to be crafted negatively impacts the crafting market to some degree, there is no avoiding this. It is just a matter of magnitude.

The impact exists, nullifying any serious concern for arrow crafting to at most a 'minor concern.' It is more evidence that they use arrows as a 'currency sink' REGARDLESS of the level of impact it makes more than a crafter benefit, hence the topic. This compunded by their past attempt to sell arrows on the marketplace for cash on the 'subscriber' version of EQ2 (before the merge) which was immediately met with disapproval and quickly removed.

They've made numerous attempts to 'milk' the idea of ammo, specifically arrows, rather than any one of the numerous requests by players to make arrow management easier and/or less consuming if not outright removed. This is another move doing the exact opposite of what the players actively request.

players - "can you make it so we use less arrows?" - devs - "we'll increase the arrow stack size"

players - "okay multi attack is at about 200 and we Ae auto now , please make us use less arrows?" - devs - "hey you can buy arrows off marketplace check it out!"

players - "can you make it so we craft more arrows at once?" - devs - "here are some quivers with more slots"

players - "Oh wow multi attack can get up to 500, PLEASE make it so we use less arrows" - devs - "check this out you can buy better than crafted with dungeon tokens"

Only time they alleviated arrow use is with 'conservation' that shares spots with EXETREMELY valuable DPS improving adornment slots and making it so ranger CA's don't use arrows. I bet they are still kicking themselves over that one. Wouldn't be surprised of some better optional version of ranged CA's came out that required more arrows to be used.

"Unrestrained Arrows" - Toggle this ability on to gain more damage from ranged combat arts at the cost of extra arrows.

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Old 12-13-2011, 09:46 AM   #9
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[email protected] wrote:

players - "can you make it so we use less arrows?" - devs - "we'll increase the arrow stack size"

players - "okay multi attack is at about 200 and we Ae auto now , please make us use less arrows?" - devs - "hey you can buy arrows off marketplace check it out!" devs - "hey you can buy more arrows for less dungeon marks"

players - "can you make it so we craft more arrows at once?" - devs - "here are some quivers with more slots"

players - "Oh wow multi attack can get up to 500, PLEASE make it so we use less arrows" - devs - "check this out you can buy better than crafted with dungeon tokens"

Only time they alleviated arrow use is with 'conservation' that shares spots with EXETREMELY valuable DPS improving adornment slots and making it so ranger CA's don't use arrows. I bet they are still kicking themselves over that one. Wouldn't be surprised of some better optional version of ranged CA's came out that required more arrows to be used.

"Unrestrained Arrows" - Toggle this ability on to gain more damage from ranged combat arts at the cost of extra arrows.

We complain about the new arrows and their cost and they spend 5 minutes tweaking them when they could have spent those 5 minutes making a new arrow recipe based on the usual ones that increases the number of arrows produced with proportionally increased resource cost.

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Old 12-13-2011, 04:44 PM   #10
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IMO...Arrows on AB are crazy expensive since the patch.  A stack of level 70 arrows on my 75 ranger costs me approx 3pp on the broker in which I burn through them in 30 minutes.

Yes the arrows are better from the DM..however 1 token for 1 arrow is a lot.  I can't stand the new DM because I am unable to play my own toon and for 30 minutes of a Dungeon for 34 tokens is just not worth 34 arrows...

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Old 12-13-2011, 07:25 PM   #11
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[email protected] Bayle wrote:

Yes the arrows are better from the DM..however 1 token for 1 arrow is a lot.  I can't stand the new DM because I am unable to play my own toon and for 30 minutes of a Dungeon for 34 tokens is just not worth 34 arrows...

....they changed the price, that is what my previous post was about read the red text i added to neiloch's quote.

It's now 50 arrows for 30 marks if i recall correctly. they make a five minute change like that and yet they cant increase arrow production per recipe to reduce the downtime for rangers who make their own arrows and woodworkers in general.

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Old 12-14-2011, 12:26 AM   #12
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Yep. See what I'm saying now? Their concern isn't crafters when it comes to arrows, its they want to keep a currency sink around. More concerned about making sure people have a reason to keep running DYOD's instead of running x amount to get a couple of static items they want then stop. Now if people want to keep using better than crafted they have to regularly run DYOD At the very least they could offer a crafter recipe that lets them make 'builder' grade arrows with rare harvested wood.

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