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Old 04-03-2009, 11:20 AM   #1
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 I guess I am a bit confused by the whole shard run and auction comparison. What I keep hearing is it is ok to auction off High end gear to people not capable of getting it for a large amount of plat. Then I hear those same people say that gray shard runs should be taken out as an exploit.

 I can not see how SOE would have considered either one a true game function. Either way you are taking no risk for the reward by exploiting a game mechanic.  Maybe it is time to eliminate the ability to sell loot rights. If one exploit goes then we all need to be concerned about the ones that did not get fixed it seems.

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Old 04-03-2009, 11:22 AM   #2
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Why exactly did you think this needed a new thread vs posted into the existing one?

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Old 04-03-2009, 11:29 AM   #3
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Oh, and scouts are overpowered in PvP and should be nerfed.

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Old 04-03-2009, 11:33 AM   #4
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Magistrate wrote:

 I guess I am a bit confused by the whole shard run and auction comparison. What I keep hearing is it is ok to auction off High end gear to people not capable of getting it for a large amount of plat. Then I hear those same people say that gray shard runs should be taken out as an exploit.

 I can not see how SOE would have considered either one a true game function. Either way you are taking no risk for the reward by exploiting a game mechanic.  Maybe it is time to eliminate the ability to sell loot rights. If one exploit goes then we all need to be concerned about the ones that did not get fixed it seems.

If they remove the ability to bring in someone not in group/raid to loot items, then they basically screw large guilds in the pooch because they won't have everyone in any given raid all the time. I have both auctioned and bought gear, so I have no issues with people auctioning items (so long as its not 10 mins of endless spam, that's just annoying) and its not a matter of not being able to complete the content myself (lol, I've auctioned off items I later bought for my alt!) but a convenience factor.

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Old 04-03-2009, 11:37 AM   #5
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These aren't even remotely the same thing.  Loot rights doesn't trivialize content.  Someone still has to be able to do the content at the appropriate difficulty, it's just not the same person that ends up with the item.

And as has been said before, you can't get rid of loot rights without screwing guilds over.

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Old 04-03-2009, 11:43 AM   #6
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They are EXACTLY the same thing.

I can farm palladium clusters, and spongy loams and then buy top end raid gear.  Loot rights are actually much much more of an exploit because you can get wayyyyyyy better lewts with even less risk.

As you will notice, most of the people who say it isn't are saying, "Don't take my exploit away"   (Don't screw my guild by removing my exploit)

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Old 04-03-2009, 11:52 AM   #7
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Magistrate wrote:

 I guess I am a bit confused by the whole shard run and auction comparison. What I keep hearing is it is ok to auction off High end gear to people not capable of getting it for a large amount of plat. Then I hear those same people say that gray shard runs should be taken out as an exploit.

 I can not see how SOE would have considered either one a true game function. Either way you are taking no risk for the reward by exploiting a game mechanic.  Maybe it is time to eliminate the ability to sell loot rights. If one exploit goes then we all need to be concerned about the ones that did not get fixed it seems.

Paying money that you enered in exchage for an item really doesn't compare to doing a cakewalk shard quest and getting a shard+AA for it.

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Old 04-03-2009, 11:53 AM   #8
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CoLD MeTaL wrote:

They are EXACTLY the same thing.

I can farm palladium clusters, and spongy loams and then buy top end raid gear.  Loot rights are actually much much more of an exploit because you can get wayyyyyyy better lewts with even less risk.

As you will notice, most of the people who say it isn't are saying, "Don't take my exploit away"   (Don't screw my guild by removing my exploit)

I'm sorry Cold, but I'm saying don't screw my guild to remove someone else's exploit.

I don't care if I could no longer auction off rotting loot, but I do care when people in attendance over the 24 member raid cap can't bid/roll on loot that drops.   This would be a near deal breaker for many of the raiding community.

As, already stated multiple times in the other thread, if you can provide a system that allows our overflow members to loot AND prevents auctioning of drops, then by all means, put it forward.

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Old 04-03-2009, 12:31 PM   #9
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CoLD MeTaL wrote:

They are EXACTLY the same thing.

I can farm palladium clusters, and spongy loams and then buy top end raid gear.  Loot rights are actually much much more of an exploit because you can get wayyyyyyy better lewts with even less risk.

As you will notice, most of the people who say it isn't are saying, "Don't take my exploit away"   (Don't screw my guild by removing my exploit)

They are not the same thing. In one instance items have entered the game from legitimate gameplay and in the other they have entered the game through an exploit.

If someone were able to exploit a mob to make it grey, AND get current tier loot, that would be the same thing.

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Old 04-03-2009, 12:38 PM   #10
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[email protected] wrote:

CoLD MeTaL wrote:

They are EXACTLY the same thing.

I can farm palladium clusters, and spongy loams and then buy top end raid gear.  Loot rights are actually much much more of an exploit because you can get wayyyyyyy better lewts with even less risk.

As you will notice, most of the people who say it isn't are saying, "Don't take my exploit away"   (Don't screw my guild by removing my exploit)

I'm sorry Cold, but I'm saying don't screw my guild to remove someone else's exploit.

I don't care if I could no longer auction off rotting loot, but I do care when people in attendance over the 24 member raid cap can't bid/roll on loot that drops.   This would be a near deal breaker for many of the raiding community.

As, already stated multiple times in the other thread, if you can provide a system that allows our overflow members to loot AND prevents auctioning of drops, then by all means, put it forward.

I'm sorry, but this just sounds extremely lazy to me.  You have 25+ people sitting in a 24-man raid group so that those who aren't actually in the instance/fighting can roll on what drops?

L A Z Y . . .

Really, where did this start?  You couldn't pull this in any other game I've ever played.  Even WoW disallows this kind of behavior, and it's gone total ezmode.  Even this shard gear sounds a bit ezmode to me.  I thought that the raiders here were supposed to be a cut above.  And you get geared by sitting back and letting the other raiders fight while all you do is roll on drops?  Pft.  How do you learn the fights?  How do you master the strategies?  Sheesh, even my old raiding guild on WoW had me fighting in the instances if I wanted a chance at the drop, if it dropped something I could use, if we didn't failwipe.

*sigh*

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Old 04-03-2009, 12:52 PM   #11
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CoLD MeTaL wrote:

They are EXACTLY the same thing.

Here's where the distinction is:

With selling loot rights, a group or raid puts in the effort/time/risk in order to get the item to drop, and what happens to that item once it enters the game is up to them.

With gray shards, a player removes the effort/time/risk element from ever having happened, and is still wanting the same reward.

Paying someone else to put in the effort on your behalf is capitalism, trying to remove any traces of effort is not.

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Old 04-03-2009, 01:01 PM   #12
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Noaani wrote:

CoLD MeTaL wrote:

They are EXACTLY the same thing.

Here's where the distinction is:

With selling loot rights, a group or raid puts in the effort/time/risk in order to get the item to drop, and what happens to that item once it enters the game is up to them.

With gray shards, a player removes the effort/time/risk element from ever having happened, and is still wanting the same reward.

Paying someone else to put in the effort on your behalf is capitalism, trying to remove any traces of effort is not.

Ah but the NO-TRADE flag is meant  to not allow the selling of the piece FOR ANY CURRENCY (including DKP etc), ie it is an exploit.  It is still receiving something for no personal risk.

I realize if we go by SOE's definition of what an exploit is, then as usual they will favor the raiding community and allow yours but kill the casuals.  that is standard operating procedure for them.

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Old 04-03-2009, 01:04 PM   #13
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[email protected] DLere wrote:

I thought that the raiders here were supposed to be a cut above.  And you get geared by sitting back and letting the other raiders fight while all you do is roll on drops?  Pft.  How do you learn the fights?  How do you master the strategies?  Sheesh, even my old raiding guild on WoW had me fighting in the instances if I wanted a chance at the drop, if it dropped something I could use, if we didn't failwipe.

*sigh*

How do you take more than 24 people into a raid zone?  You don't.  Most guilds have between 28 and 32 people (more if casual).  That means if there is 100% attendance on a raid night, someone is sitting.  Normally its the least useful class, volunteer or whatever.  In most guilds if those people stay online and available if needed they earn dkp and can roll on loot that drops.

/shrug

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Old 04-03-2009, 01:05 PM   #14
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CoLD MeTaL wrote:

Noaani wrote:

CoLD MeTaL wrote:

They are EXACTLY the same thing.

Here's where the distinction is:

With selling loot rights, a group or raid puts in the effort/time/risk in order to get the item to drop, and what happens to that item once it enters the game is up to them.

With gray shards, a player removes the effort/time/risk element from ever having happened, and is still wanting the same reward.

Paying someone else to put in the effort on your behalf is capitalism, trying to remove any traces of effort is not.

Ah but the NO-TRADE flag is meant  to not allow the selling of the piece FOR ANY CURRENCY (including DKP etc), ie it is an exploit.  It is still receiving something for no personal risk.

I realize if we go by SOE's definition of what an exploit is, then as usual they will favor the raiding community and allow yours but kill the casuals.  that is standard operating procedure for them.

Why does NO-TRADE mean that? Where is that stated?  You can also interpret it to mean that you cannot auction house the item, which is true.

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Old 04-03-2009, 01:14 PM   #15
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They are putting an end to greyed-zone shard looting, which I agree with.

Raid guilds having more that 24 members and being able to loot gear to someone who wasnt in a raid on a specific encounter is in no way an exploit.  It is necessary to have more members so you can maintain a raid schedule when people have to be out for rl reasons. There is also a matter of encounter scripting and needing specific classes based upon the encounter requirements.  If you happen to have a night where more than 24 people are online, those sitting outside the zone have every right to whatever loot drops and they earn dkp while sitting as well.  Their time is no less valuable than those who get into the raid. To try to say otherwise is just wrong and short-sighted.

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Old 04-03-2009, 01:21 PM   #16
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[email protected] wrote:

They are putting an end to greyed-zone shard looting, which I agree with.

Raid guilds having more that 24 members and being able to loot gear to someone who wasnt in a raid on a specific encounter is in no way an exploit.  It is necessary to have more members so you can maintain a raid schedule when people have to be out for rl reasons. There is also a matter of encounter scripting and needing specific classes based upon the encounter requirements.  If you happen to have a night where more than 24 people are online, those sitting outside the zone have every right to whatever loot drops and they earn dkp while sitting as well.  Their time is no less valuable than those who get into the raid. To try to say otherwise is just wrong and short-sighted.

*ring*ring*

Hello?  Yeah, hang on.

HEY!  Bernie Madoff is on the phone!  He says you have talent.  He wants to offer you a position in his scheme... organization.

Yeah, something for nothing is always bad.  Short-sighted?  That's what got you where you are.  Wrong?  Wrong is what that little voice is telling you in the back of your head when you sit outside and roll on loot that drops from someone else's hard work.  You know, the one you overpower with diabolical greedy laughter?

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Old 04-03-2009, 01:29 PM   #17
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I don't think you're even reading the posts.  Its obvious that the same raiders don't sit out everynight, therefore they don't get anything for free.

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Old 04-03-2009, 01:51 PM   #18
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Gage wrote:

I don't think you're even reading the posts.  Its obvious that the same raiders don't sit out everynight, therefore they don't get anything for free.

No, I missed your previous one.  However, I stand by my impression taht you guys are ezmode all the way.  In my last raiding guild, if you couldn't go in because we couldn't fit you in the group, you got to hang out in guild chat and hope a spot opened up inside the instance group.  No spot, no run.  No run, no loot.  No being in the raid group, cause the servers lock the group out if it has more people in it than the size allows.  No rolling on anything you didn't help down.  I don't know.  Maybe I need to get myself up a bit more and see what raiding here really looks like.  Right now it sounds really fail.  And I thought that badge gear was bad.

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Old 04-03-2009, 01:51 PM   #19
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CoLD MeTaL wrote:

Ah but the NO-TRADE flag is meant  to not allow the selling of the piece FOR ANY CURRENCY (including DKP etc), ie it is an exploit.  It is still receiving something for no personal risk.

Where exactly did this come from?

My statement that you quoted has nothing to do with SoEs intentions of anything in game or out of the game, yours clearly does. I'd like some sort of verification that you have first hand knowledge that this is what SoE consider the No-Trade tag to mean.

If it is, every guild or raid alliance in the game using DKP is exploiting, and I find that very hard to believe.

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Old 04-03-2009, 01:53 PM   #20
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CoLD MeTaL wrote:

They are EXACTLY the same thing.

I can farm palladium clusters, and spongy loams and then buy top end raid gear.  Loot rights are actually much much more of an exploit because you can get wayyyyyyy better lewts with even less risk.

As you will notice, most of the people who say it isn't are saying, "Don't take my exploit away"   (Don't screw my guild by removing my exploit)

No, they're not the same thing because someone has put forth the effort (and taken the "risk") to actually kill that mob. While I'm not a fan of selling loot rights and mythical updates, it's not correct to say that it's the same exploiting a zone to turn all of the mobs grey so that you can easily complete missions to farm shards and get AA. Don't conflate the two issues, they're completely separate things.

If SOE could come up with a method that prevented groups/guilds from selling loot rights, zone access and mythical updates without screwing over legitimate use by players and raiding guilds, then I'd be all for it. One potential method would be for the game to track who was actively killing the mob (for any period of time, to account for linkdeads in the middle of a fight) and only allow those players to loot from the chest who either participated in the kill. If you go linkdead before a fight and your group pulls without you, and then you come back before the mob is looted, then I guess you're just out of luck. The real problem is how to handle sit-outs in a raid. And this has nothing to do with "laziness", but basic fairness to players who signed up for a raid and are then asked to sit by the raid leader.

Edit: And your comment about DKP is just ridiculous. Just based on that comment alone, I think it's pretty safe to say that you don't actively raid, and don't actually know much of what you're talking about in that regard.

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Old 04-03-2009, 02:02 PM   #21
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Kordran wrote:

CoLD MeTaL wrote:

They are EXACTLY the same thing.

I can farm palladium clusters, and spongy loams and then buy top end raid gear.  Loot rights are actually much much more of an exploit because you can get wayyyyyyy better lewts with even less risk.

As you will notice, most of the people who say it isn't are saying, "Don't take my exploit away"   (Don't screw my guild by removing my exploit)

No, they're not the same thing because someone has put forth the effort (and taken the "risk") to actually kill that mob. While I'm not a fan of selling loot rights and mythical updates, it's not correct to say that it's the same exploiting a zone to turn all of the mobs grey so that you can easily complete missions to farm shards and get AA. Don't conflate the two issues, they're completely separate things.

If SOE could come up with a method that prevented groups/guilds from selling loot rights, zone access and mythical updates without screwing over legitimate use by players and raiding guilds, then I'd be all for it. One potential method would be for the game to track who was actively killing the mob (for any period of time, to account for linkdeads in the middle of a fight) and only allow those players to loot from the chest who either participated in the kill. If you go linkdead before a fight and your group pulls without you, and then you come back before the mob is looted, then I guess you're just out of luck. The real problem is how to handle sit-outs in a raid. And this has nothing to do with "laziness", but basic fairness to players who signed up for a raid and are then asked to sit by the raid leader.

Ok I'll bite,  So you state that if someone has put forth the effort and taken the risk isn't an exploit.  Then why can't someone craft t1 armor with there shards for another char anymore?  Because that was an exploit.

See the biggest issue here is a Dev used the term exploit,  I was in beta as were several others.  Beta had it's own forums which now are wiped so we cannot refference them.  Gray shard runs were expressed in beta, the devs response on it was "Working as intended" when asked to clarify further they stated it was that way so toons who were too [Removed for Content] or couldn't get groups could progress.  Really that's all there is to it, but since we cannot reference that post and a dev used the term "exploit" everyone is up in arms.

I wonder how many raiders are bent over this that used exploits in there raids to kill mobs.  It's like the SUV moms who hate smokers cause there polluting the atmosphere yet there SUV is more destructive than 3 smokers.

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Old 04-03-2009, 02:03 PM   #22
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[email protected] DLere wrote:

[email protected] wrote:

Really, where did this start?  You couldn't pull this in any other game I've ever played.  Even WoW disallows this kind of behavior, and it's gone total ezmode.  Even this shard gear sounds a bit ezmode to me.  I thought that the raiders here were supposed to be a cut above.  And you get geared by sitting back and letting the other raiders fight while all you do is roll on drops?  Pft.  How do you learn the fights?  How do you master the strategies?  Sheesh, even my old raiding guild on WoW had me fighting in the instances if I wanted a chance at the drop, if it dropped something I could use, if we didn't failwipe.

*sigh*

And what did you do when 38 people showed up for your 36 man zone?  Kick 2 people to the curb and say sorry, no dkp, no chance at loot, maybe next time you'll get something?

This policy has been a consistent part of raiding as far back as I can remember into eq1. 

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Old 04-03-2009, 02:04 PM   #23
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Why do you guys only recruit enough people + a few more to fill a raid?  Why not keep recruiting more people to fill out a second raid group?  Or PUG it up with another raid guild to make a full raid from their sitters?  This is what I'm not getting here.  I don't care about the loot.  I want to run the content.  Loot is nice, but it's just icing on the cake.  If you only eat icing, you'll get sick.  And sickness is what I see here.  It's time to get off the cake and start learning what the meat and potatoes are all about.

Maybe the WoW Raiders can teach you a thing or two about efficient instance running.

*sigh*

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Old 04-03-2009, 02:07 PM   #24
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[email protected] DLere wrote:

Why do you guys only recruit enough people + a few more to fill a raid?  Why not keep recruiting more people to fill out a second raid group? 

Why would we want to raid the same content twice?  Why would we want to have to try to gear out twice as many people?

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Old 04-03-2009, 02:07 PM   #25
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I think selling no-trade loot is lame. I've never bought or sold loot rights, or purchased a no-trade item. There's nothing that can be effectively done about it however.

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Old 04-03-2009, 02:09 PM   #26
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It isn't no sell, its no trade.

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Old 04-03-2009, 02:12 PM   #27
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[email protected] DLere wrote:

However, I stand by my impression taht you guys are ezmode all the way.  In my last raiding guild, if you couldn't go in because we couldn't fit you in the group, you got to hang out in guild chat and hope a spot opened up inside the instance group.  No spot, no run.  No run, no loot.  No being in the raid group, cause the servers lock the group out if it has more people in it than the size allows.  No rolling on anything you didn't help down.  I don't know.  Maybe I need to get myself up a bit more and see what raiding here really looks like.  Right now it sounds really fail.  And I thought that badge gear was bad.

There are guilds that operate that way, but the problem is that they can end up running with thin rosters. If a sit-out can't earn DKP and bid on xmute loot (drops that no one in the raid wants, and would just be transmuted) then there's really not much of a motivation for them to stick around; it happens a few times, and you can start losing members, particularly with a lot of raiding guilds actively looking to poach players.

One way to think of it is a like a job offering. Two companies are offering you about the same salary, but one is also offering you all the perks; good health insurance, sick time, plenty of vacation and bonuses. The other tells you "No work, no pay. No benefits. Buy your own health insurance, if you're sick, it's on your own dime". Which company are you going to go work for? Anyone with a brain would pick the company that offers additional benefits and bonuses.

The same deal with raiding guilds. They use things like sit-out DKP and bidding rules as a recruiting tool and "perk" to encourage players to join their guild, sign up for raids and even if they're told to sit, they don't feel bad about it like they're missing out. Most guilds who don't do this will lose players to those who do.

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Old 04-03-2009, 02:14 PM   #28
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[email protected] DLere wrote:

Why do you guys only recruit enough people + a few more to fill a raid?  Why not keep recruiting more people to fill out a second raid group?  Or PUG it up with another raid guild to make a full raid from their sitters?  This is what I'm not getting here.  I don't care about the loot.  I want to run the content.  Loot is nice, but it's just icing on the cake.  If you only eat icing, you'll get sick.  And sickness is what I see here.  It's time to get off the cake and start learning what the meat and potatoes are all about.

Maybe the WoW Raiders can teach you a thing or two about efficient instance running.

*sigh*

You clearly have no solid grounding to provide feedback on this topic.  Once you've led a successful eq2 raid guild, or even just been a long time contributor to a successful one, then come back and provide your feedback on the topic.

I can tell you I need ~50 active subs to fill out a 24 man raid 5 nights a week in a casual raid guild.  Some nights there's going to be 22 on, some nights there will be 38 on.  If someone makes the effort to be there, and dedicates their time to being available to assist with that raids success, they get dkp and the right to bid on loot. 

It is never the case that anyone is getting raid loot for free in this model.  Just cause they sat out on Friday night and got loot, they were there 3 other nights that week fighting and got no loot.  Expanding the loot/reward model to cover everyone that dedicated the time for the raid is the most common and fair sollution agreed upon by guild management.

If SoE were to deem this 'exploit' there would be quite a bit of push back as it will affect players significantly.  If they can't earn dkp and loot chances for the times they have to sit out, they're simply not going to stay in guild and fraction off to other tags.  When that happens, we end up scheduling raids and only about 70% of the time will we have the right players and classes online to complete the zone.  Unless of course you've got 24 people with no life outside of game.

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Old 04-03-2009, 02:17 PM   #29
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[email protected] DLere wrote:

Why do you guys only recruit enough people + a few more to fill a raid?  Why not keep recruiting more people to fill out a second raid group?  Or PUG it up with another raid guild to make a full raid from their sitters?  This is what I'm not getting here.  I don't care about the loot.  I want to run the content.  Loot is nice, but it's just icing on the cake.  If you only eat icing, you'll get sick.  And sickness is what I see here.  It's time to get off the cake and start learning what the meat and potatoes are all about.

Maybe the WoW Raiders can teach you a thing or two about efficient instance running.

Before you judge how things are done, I would suggest actually getting to the point where you raid in EQ2 and get a better understanding of the game mechanics, how raid progression works in the game and how a raid force is setup. Because right now, I suspect that you're commenting from a place of ignorance. This is not WoW. If that's the game you want to play, the exit is down the hall, to your left.

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Old 04-03-2009, 02:53 PM   #30
Gilasil

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The group I raid with frequently pass loot rights to alts whenever someone in the actual raid can't use an item.  They do it because the alternative is melting it and often it's a very nice item.  They never auction the item.  It always goes to an alt or someone involved with the group.

That said, I think it's an exploit.  Yes I sit quietly without saying anything when these pickups are arranged.  Call me a hippocrite.  I'm not going to argue with the leaders of my raid group.

But I think the game would be better off if this weren't possible.  Those items were given the no trade tag for a reason.  If the devs think it's ok to pass items dropped in a raid to people not in the raid they should remove the no trade tag.  But as long as it's there I assume it's to prevent those kinds of antics. 

I don't buy the argument that they need to gear up more then 24 people.  Of course they need to gear up more then 24 people.  So what?  I don't know about the people making that argument, but my group NEVER raids something once and then never goes back.  We go back to old raid zones constantly. So if you couldn't be in the raid which killed the great Foozle this time for the Uber Sword of Gnome Slaying, just make sure you come along next time.  We also aren't so exclusive that we wouldn't bring along someone who really needs that raid even if they aren't the exact right class (otherwise my bruiser wouldn't be raiding at all except for Sisters but that's for another thread).

I think I'll throw up the first time I see someone in raid gear who never raids.

I do agree this isn't as horrible as grey shard quests since someone had to work for that item whereas no one had to work for grey shards or the items they buy.  But of course I consider grey shards as not a whole lot better then a dup exploit.  Even so, this is still an exploit which means the game would be better off without it.

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