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Old 04-01-2009, 05:27 PM   #1
CoLD MeTaL

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Reading Kiara's post, that SOE is actively seeking to remove the ability to get shards from grey zones, makes me sad.  I have yet to find a PUG that that can clear these zones at normal levels in less than hours.  That is NOT an exageration.  Grey a lot of them are still undoable.  I need like 1800 more shards for 8 level 80 characters.

If you are going to remove this, then you need to add quicker/easier ways to get shards for those of us that don't have raid gear.  AND you need to add people tot he server that we can group with, Nektulos at least is a freaking ghost town.

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Old 04-01-2009, 05:28 PM   #2
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Oh, great.  So the current 80s get easymode, while all the ones who aren't quite there yet get shafted?  That's fair.

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Old 04-01-2009, 05:33 PM   #3
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[email protected] wrote:

Oh, great.  So the current 80s get easymode, while all the ones who aren't quite there yet get shafted?  That's fair.

Exactly, normal SOE SOP, let the raiders go through and get the goods through these exploits (and the plat they have earned at 5p per shard)  then shut it down for the normal people coming behind.

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Old 04-01-2009, 05:36 PM   #4
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I dont see why it could hurt anybody if a couple of people wanted to run a gray quest. I personally find it more fun to do them as lv80s because its a decent challenge for me and I always get out of there with a rare now and then as well as a extra shard.

The stuff that you can get from the shard merchants are decent but its not stuff that blow people away. I see lots of better items out there. It seem like a great option to people who doesnt raid and just want to be able to equip their characters with decent stuff.

I honestly cant see why this harm has to be made. Its been this way for months I believe. Why start changing it now?

I have tried and done these gray quests. Does that mean that I am going to be in trouble now?

Kinda liked the option of everyone being able to do these instances. Not to mention that it actually isnt everyone who can do them as it require a character you can mentor in order to make them gray and not everyone has that. I know that I dont.

That said, I can see why its considered an exploit. The stuff the merchants sell are lv80 and because of that I suppose that it should be a lv80 instance.

IMO, leave it as it is so noone will be upset.

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Old 04-01-2009, 05:38 PM   #5
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CoLD MeTaL wrote:

[email protected] wrote:

Oh, great.  So the current 80s get easymode, while all the ones who aren't quite there yet get shafted?  That's fair.

Exactly, normal SOE SOP, let the raiders go through and get the goods through these exploits (and the plat they have earned at 5p per shard)  then shut it down for the normal people coming behind.

You do realize that its not really raiders doing this but more-so the "I cant run heroic zones cause im [Removed for Content]" crowd

and in all honestly if you are greying out zones to get shards dont waste you're time, the gear wont help you much when you dont even run heroic zones

I also hope they delete all gear and shards obtained by this OBVIOUS exploit

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Old 04-01-2009, 05:53 PM   #6
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Well they have officially removed a lot of the incentive to do these zones grayed out now... since we can't sell the shards.  (which I posted elsewhere as bogus)  So why should they mess with this even more?  It's always the constant argument between the hardcore players who want to make sure they stay better than the casual players, and the casual players who want to catch up.  And the casual players say that nerfs that widen this gap are unfair, and the hardcore players call those people noobs and whiners.  I wish everyone could play how they want to and that SO would quit messing this stuff up.  I myself, for example, have a bunch of lv 80s (both crafters and adventurers) and would love the opportunity to get them some myth updates and masters... (but since they are alts they can't get in on guild raids, and they dont get played as much so won't get masters). So every time I come across a decent way to make some money to advance my toons... shortly afterward, SOE nerfs it because people are complaining about it.  (i.e. - void shard selling, and ethernaut shiney farming in Ferzhul)  I can't handle harvesting for hours on end (especially since botting isn't allowed) to get the money, and I don't know of another way because my guild rarely auto-splits coin during raids.  So gaining the money is excruciatingly slow and it's very frustrating every time one of my avenues to making money gets removed from the game because of elitists. *end rant*

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Old 04-01-2009, 05:57 PM   #7
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this will just lead to another endless flamewar. Oh, and btw, don't forget it's not only about shards, it is also about aaxp.
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Old 04-01-2009, 06:01 PM   #8
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In all honesty ToS groups are hosed for many classes. Most groups consist of Tank/ hate transfer/ hate transfer/ buffer/ healer/ DPS. Ok, you can get away with Tank/ hate transfer/ buffer/ 2 healers/ 1 dps in some groups SMILEY. The point is, if you are not a coercer, illy, dirge, troub, swash or assassin, you are waiting a long time for groups.

Greying out instances is just a way for the classes who are hanging out, waiting to be the lucky 'chosen' one for that single dps spot in groups, to pass time and earn shards. Yeah, you don't get the rewards of running them with a lvl 80 group, but, it is better than nothing. Many of the greyed out quests can take much longer than 10-15 minutes, those are the ones people will just bypass, or, do out of boredom. Others are actually nearly impossible, like killing all the named mobs in Najena. Even grey and me halfway decently geared, mythicaled, with 175 aa, those are not killable.

You just implemented shards in raids. Every raider can now get what, 5-8 shards in an evening of raiding? That will make raiders less inclined to do groups; making groups even more difficult to find for the casual player. Why you would suddenly decide this is an unintentional way of getting a small amount of shards and aa for the casual player is beyond me. It is fine the way it is. At least until you fix the way hate works, so more classes can find groups.

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Old 04-01-2009, 06:04 PM   #9
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CoLD MeTaL wrote:

Reading Kiara's post, that SOE is actively seeking to remove the ability to get shards from grey zones, makes me sad.  I have yet to find a PUG that that can clear these zones at normal levels in less than hours.  That is NOT an exageration.  Grey a lot of them are still undoable.  I need like 1800 more shards for 8 level 80 characters.

If you are going to remove this, then you need to add quicker/easier ways to get shards for those of us that don't have raid gear.  AND you need to add people tot he server that we can group with, Nektulos at least is a freaking ghost town.

"Let the flames roll."

I can't speak for Nektulos, but you can get a pug on unrest in under 10 mins.  about 9:10 are successful.

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Old 04-01-2009, 06:05 PM   #10
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My 2cp on this is that this has been left in since launch of the expansion, and done so when Devs obviously knew about it. The Devs ensured that the shard quests would not work in a mentored zone, they made the zones work with not only the shard quests but also the HQs that go into these zones, etc, etc...

I honestly don't see why this is being considered an "exploit", when this is not exploiting a glitch in the game, but rather something that the Devs left in for almost 5 months now.  I can honestly say I know this has been happening for at least 4 months, if there was an issue I would think that this would have been brought up and fixed by now.

Exploits in the past (remember the issue with selling from a few months ago) they went out of their way to ensure that people knew about it.

This isn't getting a post in the Announcements section, no mention on the main page of EQ2Players, no mail in game, no System messages or announcements in game, nothing.  This isn't even a sticky post in this forum, you have to know were to look to even see the response. (http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?topic_id=447023)

Also I thought we were to have a more open discussion on changes that are going to be made, locking topics doesn't lend credability to that....

=(

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Old 04-01-2009, 06:08 PM   #11
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Shards? Aren't they the new plat?

I think I have about a dozen. Not sure what to do with them yet, mind, but then I'm just a clueless noob SMILEY

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Old 04-01-2009, 06:12 PM   #12
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Cold, this is not a slam on you, just some constructive criticism.  After looking at your gear and AA's, I can see why you're having problems with these zones.  You're going to have to stick to Scion and Deep Forge until you get your T1 set (you may be able to handle other zones if you're not tanking).  Even with PUGs, no way those 2 zones should take hours to clear at 80.  You also seem to be kind of far behind in the AA curve (I am as well), so that's also something you need to work on.  Instead of worrying about outfitting 8 characters, pick one, and get that one up to par.  You'll find things much easier that way, and less frustrating.

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Old 04-01-2009, 06:14 PM   #13
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Guys, the team is still working on it.  The fix isn't in yet, so please don't fret about it just yet.

Feel free to discuss and give feedback, just try to remember to remain civil please.

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Old 04-01-2009, 06:14 PM   #14
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Well, I got all my T2 armor without greying out but on my alts we always just grey it.  Don't have the time to run these things 10 hours a night to get enough shards for alts and guildies.

Just leave it alone

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Old 04-01-2009, 06:15 PM   #15
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If this absolutely has/had to be changed, I thought it sounded pretty cool to have some other quests added for the more casual players. The ones who doesnt raid and group up and dont play the right classes etc.

For example, the current void shard instances could be for 80s only and reward you with shards but also chests (like they already do when you do them as 80s). New ones could be added that would give what the current gray shard instances give. A simple shard.

As already said, its not like this gear come close to some of the "real" gear this game has to offer.

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Old 04-01-2009, 06:20 PM   #16
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[Removed for Content]?

So according to older dev comments, the issue was acknowledged and not considered an exploit.  There are dozens of threads on the subject.  And then out of left field, Kierra says "Exploit", locks thread, and end of discussion / no announcement? 

But I agree with the OP, if it weren't for grey, I wouldn't have that many.  And I'm not sure I'd still be playing.   It's not that I'm anti-group.  It's that groups are anti-people unless you perfectly fill the niche they're seeking.

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Old 04-01-2009, 06:23 PM   #17
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A) Just because you have 30 different toons doesn't mean every single one of them needs a full set of T2 shard armor.  If that's what you want to do, then great, but it's going to take you forever, and it SHOULD take you forever.  Sony doesn't need to dumb everything down for everyone else because of the 0.1% of the population that feels they need to have 8 "active" (lol, how active can they all be with that many of them) toons.

B) If you think you need raid gear to run instances then, I'm sorry, but you either need to learn how to play or you need to find five other people that know how to play.  If you're in a guild with 7 other people, none of which are level 80, then again, that's not really SoEs fault, and they don't need to cater to that situation.  I've done every TSO instance up to and including Attrebe's (in difficulty) with 6 non raid gear toons.  Not even remotely optimal groups.  Not a myth in the bunch.  And zones like DF take 30 minutes with non raid geared people, as long as they're competent.

And if you can't do em gray?  Man, I don't know what to tell you.

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Old 04-01-2009, 06:24 PM   #18
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Kiara wrote:

Guys, the team is still working on it.  The fix isn't in yet, so please don't fret about it just yet.

Feel free to discuss and give feedback, just try to remember to remain civil please.

Are there any real reason as for why this change has been considered and pretty much agreed to happen?

I mean, is it because it simply dont require enough work in your opinion(s) and because some of them can be done solo as well as duo'ed?

Because as lots have already said, its not exactly easy even to solo unless you get  a quest that require you to collect a few crystals or bones where you dont have to unlock a new level by killing a boss mob.

Just wondering why this has to be taken away from us. If it wasnt intended why did this go on for 4 months without a word from the red names and now all of a sudden its just like. You are SOL if you dont group or raid.

Please dont read it the wrong way. Im really just wondering and curious. Its all a bit unexpected.

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Old 04-01-2009, 06:24 PM   #19
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CoLD MeTaL wrote:

Reading Kiara's post, that SOE is actively seeking to remove the ability to get shards from grey zones, makes me sad.  I have yet to find a PUG that that can clear these zones at normal levels in less than hours. 

You have to be exaggerating here. Hours? Even marginally competent people in legendary RoK gear should be able to do the easier zones like Deep Forge and Scion of Ice in an hour or less. But if you really are having such a problem with PUGs, then the solution is simple: join an active guild, and don't depend exclusively on pickup groups.

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Old 04-01-2009, 06:25 PM   #20
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NicolasKL wrote:

A) Just because you have 30 different toons doesn't mean every single one of them needs a full set of T2 shard armor.  If that's what you want to do, then great, but it's going to take you forever, and it SHOULD take you forever.  Sony doesn't need to dumb everything down for everyone else because of the 0.1% of the population that feels they need to have 8 "active" (lol, how active can they all be with that many of them) toons.

B) If you think you need raid gear to run instances then, I'm sorry, but you either need to learn how to play or you need to find five other people that need to learn how to play.  If you're in a guild with 7 other people, none of which are level 80, then again, that's not really SoEs fault, and they don't need to cater to that situation.  I've done every TSO instance up to and including Attrebe's (in difficulty) with 6 non raid gear toons.  Not even remotely optimal groups.  Not a myth in the bunch.  And zones like DF take 30 minutes with non raid geared people, as long as they're competent.

And if you can't do em gray?  Man, I don't know what to tell you.

Oh come on now.  You know darn well that certain classes are not wanted in shard runs.  Especially pickups.

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Old 04-01-2009, 06:27 PM   #21
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It is an exploit. You are cheating. Just because you rolled a toon doesn't give you the right to free loot. T2 armor isn't sufficient? Well, thanks for showing your extensive knowledge... Most void shard quests don't even require you to finish the zone. Kill 20 giants. OMG, that's so impossible. Seriously, if you can't tag a few idols, kill a couple NON-named bad guys, or even pick notes up off the ground then please do us all a huge favor, and quit. No wonder you can't find groups.

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Old 04-01-2009, 06:29 PM   #22
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Wow. Way to post to other people on a forum.

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Old 04-01-2009, 06:31 PM   #23
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[email protected] wrote:

Greying out instances is just a way for the classes who are hanging out, waiting to be the lucky 'chosen' one for that single dps spot in groups, to pass time and earn shards. Yeah, you don't get the rewards of running them with a lvl 80 group, but, it is better than nothing. Many of the greyed out quests can take much longer than 10-15 minutes, those are the ones people will just bypass, or, do out of boredom. Others are actually nearly impossible, like killing all the named mobs in Najena. Even grey and me halfway decently geared, mythicaled, with 175 aa, those are not killable.

This is exactly it. A few players are mentoring down to get a handful of shards in only the three easy dungeons (and some of the quests are not doable even greyed out and many of which still take a good amount of time), the devs knew about this ability since beta and said nothing about it other than it was working as intended, there's been many other threads about this same exact issue...but now 5 months later it's an exploit?

You never got the extra shards, loot, shinies, etc from mentoring, so it was a tradeoff. They just removed the key issue of people farming shards to sell, which I agree with honestly, so no one is going to make a profit form it.

But I really don't see the harm in letting people who, for whatever reason, can't find a level-appropriate group where the rewards are obviously much better and who are just using mentor to gather a few shards as an attempt to upgrade a bit.

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Old 04-01-2009, 06:35 PM   #24
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wow seriously? you are removing something that was well documented in beta and wasnt considered an exploit then? this rocks SMILEY now my second account will NEVER get any shards, woot! This change = epic fail. But it's what I've come to expect of the current dev team, makes me miss the good old days, when updates were once a month and the devs knew what they were doing!
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Old 04-01-2009, 06:38 PM   #25
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I did a calculation today when i read Kiara's announcement.

If someone were to, in a regular group, run the Daily Double every day at level 80, only ONCE a day, they would have a full set of Tier 2 Shard Gear in 50 days.  That's not a lot of time, if you think about it.  A month and a half?  Maybe two months?  To cap out a casual toon in the best gear?

now of course, if you want more toons to have it, it will take longer.  But that was the entire point of the system:  To make it last longer, and have more replayability.

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Old 04-01-2009, 06:44 PM   #26
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Grumble69 wrote:

[Removed for Content]?

So according to older dev comments, the issue was acknowledged and not considered an exploit.  There are dozens of threads on the subject.  And then out of left field, Kierra says "Exploit", locks thread, and end of discussion / no announcement? 

But I agree with the OP, if it weren't for grey, I wouldn't have that many.  And I'm not sure I'd still be playing.   It's not that I'm anti-group.  It's that groups are anti-people unless you perfectly fill the niche they're seeking.

Can anyone link these older comments?

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Old 04-01-2009, 06:45 PM   #27
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I'm torn.  I admit that graying out the zone is cheeseballing.  But frankly it's the only way for a casual player to obtain shard gear in any reasonable time frame.  Worse, far worse, is that this has been allowed to continue for nearly 4 months.  In 4 months a large majority of the player base has already set the status quo and obtained their T2 shard armor with a TON of shards in reserve for the pittance needed for T3 armor.  So much so that they've capitilized off this and "sold" shards via commision transfer. And it that time they've had legitimate developer posts to point to indicating that his was okay.

Even more so you cannot possibly argue that the developers had no idea this was possible before releasing TSO.  Mentoring zone mechanics is part of the game design and along standing tradition in EQ2.  To say that they didn't know it was possible and it's an exploit now is just ludicrous.  To say they intend to change it is okay, to call this an exploit, at this point in the game?  Silly. If it really was an exploit the devs would've fixed it within weeks of TSO launching.  Not months of constant usage to the point where a huge number of players have already used it and finished with it to get their shard gear.

All that said.  Let's look at the math of shards.  It takes upwards of 120 some odd shards to get a full set of T2 Shard armor not counting any jewelry or other extras.    Running one of the easier shard instances "full" at level 80 with a casual PUG that isn't in raid gear (a majority of the player base) takes about an hour.  Sure, a great group with great gear can do it in 20 minutes.  So let's just average it out to 45 minutes a run, that accounts for AFK's, travel times, mess ups, link deaths, etc.  In t hat time you can get 2 shards.

45 Minutes is about all your casual EQ2 player has in an evening but let's cut them some slack and assume the same level of efficiency to get a second one done. 1.5 hours for four shards.  So four shards a night, should take 30 straight days of gameplay to get a full set of T2 shard armor.  However your average person can't run shards *every* night for a lot of logistical reasons.  Let's say they can run shards 3 nights a week.  12 shards a week, it'll take 10 weeks to get the shard armor. 

It seems like a reasonable number doesn't it.  But that number assumes so many efficiencies that your average player just doesn't have.  In the meantime your non-average raiding player can, and probably would, run 5 zones a night, sinking 4 hours (more if they do Guk or Palace) for shards when they aren't raiding, netting 8-12 shards a day (daily double depending). They could be done with their gear in as little as two weeks. 

Now factor in what a casual can do graying out shards... they can net about the same amount of shards per day (luck depending) as a raider, usually a bit less, but still can't do it every day.  They might get their gear in as little as 4 weeks time.

What's worse is that for non-raiders, a lot of this content is not doable in KoS legendary gear.  Yes, for raiders and skilled players it is doable, but for those that need the crutch of better gear, they can't even see half the content UNTIL they have their T2 armor.

The recent LU added a nice solo shard run.  However this run is INSANELY boring, takes minimum 25 minutes for one shard and is a fight against contested mob spawns.  Whoever designed this quest was smoking crack, or ultimately purposefully decided that the rate of shard gain for a solo'er should be 1 shard per day at 30 minutes a shard netting nearly 120 days (over 4 months of casual play time).  This *might* might be tolerable if the [Removed for Content] quest wasn't so insanely boring (using the illusion mechanic that forces you to 200 dps fights that take forever to complete but aren't hard and you'll win every time was just silly).

And none of the above takes into account shard jewelry or other doo-dads which are frankly the best gear a non-raider/casual player who only gets a PUG capable of doing a heroic instance full once a week or so can hope to get.  When you factor in jewelry and other doo-dads the time it takes to get fully kitted "legitmately" borders on almost 10 months.  Oddly, about the same time it would take a new expansion to come out.  While I appreciate the convenience of the math, the return for the investment in time is so far skewed that it's just not worth it.

T2 Shard gear should be a stepping stone for up and coming players to get a base level of gear before considering raiding.  As such it should take a reasonable amount of time to get.  Anyone claiming that it dumbs down the game to do so is silly. Raid gear is superior to shard gear in every possible way except possibly, maybe, the T3 shard gear which takes a raid AND all the T2 time invested to get (sucks for those raiders who T3 is an upgrade for but T2 isn't and have to farm shards with the rest of the schleps anyway but bank the T2 shard gear waiting on T3 drops). 

The system "works" okay with the gray shard runs in place now, it's still a pain and yes, graying out zones is both boring and unexciting and mostly unrewarding.  I know a lot of people who do it to get T2 then stop graying the zones to get the better drops.  THe system is kludgy, unrefined, but it works.  If they shut off the ability to run gray shard zones without doing something to excellerate the rate of shard gain for non-raiders they will basically be nailing shut the door on reasonable gear gains for most people who come into the shard run experience post change.  Add a few more solo runs (make the quests a bit more entertaining please), increase the daily double a bit (maybe add two daily double quests).  A more reasonable rate of shard gain would be your average non-raider should be able to net 4-6 shards in an hour of game play.  This means they earn the most expensive T2 piece in about 5 played days or roughly 7-8 real life days for your average casual gamer with a life.  Sure, raiders can get it faster but who cares? Raiders have better gear or are after T3 shard armor anyway which comes from a drop and the acquisition of shards previous is an annoyance not an actual challenge.

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Old 04-01-2009, 06:46 PM   #28
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Wouldn't have had a problem if this was considered an exploit up front and acknowledged as such. As everyone has mentioned, the developers knew about it from day one. Nor would I have disagreed with calling it an exploit. But to make this statement now is beyond ridiculous. 

And yes, certain classes wouldn't have many shards at all if it weren't for this mechanic. When advertising my availability as a Mythical Necro or a Swash with crappy loot the Swash was chosen every time. 

With this upcoming change I now wholeheartedly agree with everyone complaining that there isn't enough AA to be had in TSO. Not by a long shot.

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Old 04-01-2009, 06:49 PM   #29
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Dreyco wrote:

I did a calculation today when i read Kiara's announcement.

If someone were to, in a regular group, run the Daily Double every day at level 80, only ONCE a day, they would have a full set of Tier 2 Shard Gear in 50 days.  That's not a lot of time, if you think about it.  A month and a half?  Maybe two months?  To cap out a casual toon in the best gear?

now of course, if you want more toons to have it, it will take longer.  But that was the entire point of the system:  To make it last longer, and have more replayability.

Longer, you're assuming they can play every day, and that the daily double is doable every one of those days.  Over half the daily double rewards come from heroic zones well known not to be doable by a casual PUG.  Your average casual player can't and doesn't play every day and can't finish some of those zones.  So while your math looks good on paper it fails in reality.

Is that fair? Who knows. EQ2 has always waffled on whether it panders to the epic raider/hardcore or the softy casual player (it's a pendulum that swings frequently).

As for longer and replayable.  Are you kidding?  While many of these zones are fun, and drop nice gear if done correctly, even the most die hard EQ2 fan is insanely sick of running Scion of Ice after the 15th time.  The daily double encourages doing different zones but many of them aren't doable without well geared/well coordinated/skilled groups.  Even so, human nature is to take the path of least resistance, hence on nights the DD is NOT in lavastorm or everfrost, people will just run an extra EF or LS instance anyway to make up for it (far easier than trying to finish GUK).

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Old 04-01-2009, 06:53 PM   #30
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Im kind of assuming that the addition of the daily solo shard quest is seen as negating the need to allow this 'workaround'

Will slow a lot of people down though!

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