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Old 06-11-2012, 11:21 PM   #31
Dinfire

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You'll catch more customers with a quality product too.

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Old 06-11-2012, 11:22 PM   #32
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[email protected] wrote:

Another problem developer's do not listen to hardcore player's, they only listen to casual's

I see in a future where AB will probably be the last server standing with a decent population.

They are so focused on eqnext right now, they don't fix half the issue's we have.

BTW, they are and should never listen to the hardcore playerbase, they represent such a small portion of the population. Keep in mind that EQ2's player base is mostly EQ1 players. Most of them were around 20-25 years old back in the days, now those players have famillies and such. They don't have 6+ hours a day to spend on a game anymore. EQ2 been designed that way. All the stuff is motly designed to be doable in a 2-3 hours session.

For EQ Next, yes, I agree but you don't need to be a genious to understand what they're doing right now. They're using EQ2 as a beta test for EQ Next. SOEmote is another worthless thing for EQ2, prolly aimed for EQ Next imo.

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Old 06-12-2012, 01:56 AM   #33
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The_Cheeseman wrote:

feldon30 wrote:

* Time spent posting on the forums to update players on an issue is time taken away from development.* No matter what the devs do, there will be an onslaught of negativity.I can post countless examples that disprove these two fallacies.

Neither of those assertions are fallacies, if anything they would merely be premises from which to form an argument. The first statement I agree is incorrect (the devs have plenty of time off-the-clock for posting in the forums) whereas the second is merely an observation I have found to be mostly accurate having been a part of this community since its inception. I find it quite ironic that the only contribution this post makes to the discussion is to negate other posters' comments. In any case, my point still stands: you catch more flies with honey than with vinegar.

I said this already, and you completely ignored it. Under Gallenite, Moorguard, and Blackguard not only did the devs have an open mic with the playerbase they also did it everywhere (including flames). They didn't get attacked constantly, they got applauded for their communication and action based on the feedback they received. That open line of communication was a great way for things to get fixed in a timely manner. That team even stepped in when there was issues where players got treated unfairly and got actions reversed. Itemization and mechanics got fixed in days or weeks, not years. Content (including free, like Unrest, Throne of New Tunaria, Lyceum etc, something Smokejumper tries to act like is some new thing that we get tons of now and should be grateful for) got released regularly. 

Players get sour and angry because there is no communication. Feedback is a 2 way street, not a I tell you something and have no way of knowing if it was heard. While people would settle for action on the issues they bring up, that isn't there either. You can't seem to be completely oblivious to the state of the game and then blame it on the players for being mad you don't communicate. When you are open with communication players simply don't get as mad. Look at Domino. How much did she post? Are you trying to tell me she got attacked all the time? You can't even say it's because tradeskillers aren't like that. They didn't have anything to be mad about under Domino, things got communicated and fixed, or told why it isn't going to change. Now? Go look at the tradeskill forums, there is quite a bit people aren't happy about (especially the "Look how much Tradeskill stuff we did this GU!")

Drunder is how old now? The itemization is STILL broken with severely skewed loot tables. 

Rate of content? Lol. I mean seriously, lol. It's a joke.

KoS, 2/21/06. 3 Overland zones, 2 still widely used contested dungeons, 5 instances, 3 actual real contested (plus Pantrilla/Vrak/Harla Dar/Ascent dragons), 4 raid zones (again, not counting ToS/Ascent/Harla Dar or the MoA raid).

TFD, 6/14/06. 1 Overland, 1 dungeon, 1 instance 2 x2, 1x4, 1 contested

EoF, 11/14/06. 5 Overland zones + a city, 5 dungeons, 7 instances, 3 raids + CWM, 3 contested + Avatars

That isn't even taking in to account the fact that they released all that content without rendering everything prior completely and utterly useless. We used to run DoF and KoS raids all the time through EoF. You could still get some useless gear, and there was plenty of masters and status to be had from it. PoS, PPR, and DMP where still fun because it was good content. Contested form the previous expansion always got farmed. In 9 months you had 9 overland zones, 8 dungeons, 13 instances, a handful of x2 and quest raids, 8 raids, 7 contested + Avatars, and all without invalidating anything. DoV was 16 months ago, how much have we got since then? People really wonder why people are upset? lol.

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Old 06-12-2012, 02:06 AM   #34
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Speaking of SC , a friend gifted me a pegasus mount but when I went to return the favor with a gift it was not available.

I pertitioned it and was told that they were aware of a problem and it would be dealt with.A month later I was told the same thing and that was in January. Still doesn't work.

I woul;d like to be able to give folks some things they cant afford , but this is not an option anymore it seems.

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Old 06-12-2012, 04:02 AM   #35
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slippery wrote:

I said this already, and you completely ignored it. Under Gallenite, Moorguard, and Blackguard not only did the devs have an open mic with the playerbase they also did it everywhere (including flames). They didn't get attacked constantly, they got applauded for their communication and action based on the feedback they received. That open line of communication was a great way for things to get fixed in a timely manner. That team even stepped in when there was issues where players got treated unfairly and got actions reversed. Itemization and mechanics got fixed in days or weeks, not years. Content (including free, like Unrest, Throne of New Tunaria, Lyceum etc, something Smokejumper tries to act like is some new thing that we get tons of now and should be grateful for) got released regularly. 

Players get sour and angry because there is no communication. Feedback is a 2 way street, not a I tell you something and have no way of knowing if it was heard. While people would settle for action on the issues they bring up, that isn't there either. You can't seem to be completely oblivious to the state of the game and then blame it on the players for being mad you don't communicate. When you are open with communication players simply don't get as mad. Look at Domino. How much did she post? Are you trying to tell me she got attacked all the time? You can't even say it's because tradeskillers aren't like that. They didn't have anything to be mad about under Domino, things got communicated and fixed, or told why it isn't going to change. Now? Go look at the tradeskill forums, there is quite a bit people aren't happy about (especially the "Look how much Tradeskill stuff we did this GU!")

Drunder is how old now? The itemization is STILL broken with severely skewed loot tables. 

Rate of content? Lol. I mean seriously, lol. It's a joke.

KoS, 2/21/06. 3 Overland zones, 2 still widely used contested dungeons, 5 instances, 3 actual real contested (plus Pantrilla/Vrak/Harla Dar/Ascent dragons), 4 raid zones (again, not counting ToS/Ascent/Harla Dar or the MoA raid).

TFD, 6/14/06. 1 Overland, 1 dungeon, 1 instance 2 x2, 1x4, 1 contested

EoF, 11/14/06. 5 Overland zones + a city, 5 dungeons, 7 instances, 3 raids + CWM, 3 contested + Avatars

That isn't even taking in to account the fact that they released all that content without rendering everything prior completely and utterly useless. We used to run DoF and KoS raids all the time through EoF. You could still get some useless gear, and there was plenty of masters and status to be had from it. PoS, PPR, and DMP where still fun because it was good content. Contested form the previous expansion always got farmed. In 9 months you had 9 overland zones, 8 dungeons, 13 instances, a handful of x2 and quest raids, 8 raids, 7 contested + Avatars, and all without invalidating anything. DoV was 16 months ago, how much have we got since then? People really wonder why people are upset? lol.

1000x this.

Echoes of Faydwer extended and built on Kingdom of Sky content.

The Shadow Odyssey extended and built on Kunark content.

Destiny of Velious took a wrecking ball to Sentinel's Fate and invalidated any reason to run that content.

Skyshrine took a wrecking ball to Destiny of Velious and invalidated any reason to run that content.

Maybe some day someone at SOE will pick up the ball and try to rebuild the EQ2 community from the ground up. We would see open, candid developer communication on all issues, and a rebuilding of player trust. *twinkling sounds* Oops I was dreaming again. The reason nobody at SOE has taken on this nearly insurmountable task is, they know they will get zero support from SOE, and, at least initially, from the playerbase.

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Old 06-12-2012, 12:53 PM   #36
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feldon30 wrote:

Maybe some day someone at SOE will pick up the ball and try to rebuild the EQ2 community from the ground up. We would see open, candid developer communication on all issues, and a rebuilding of player trust. *twinkling sounds* Oops I was dreaming again. The reason nobody at SOE has taken on this nearly insurmountable task is, they know they will get zero support from SOE, and, at least initially, from the playerbase.

I doubt it, they are ignoring us in general. Its's politics/business as usual with them, and probably will continue to be.

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Old 06-12-2012, 03:28 PM   #37
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slippery wrote:

That isn't even taking in to account the fact that they released all that content without rendering everything prior completely and utterly useless. We used to run DoF and KoS raids all the time through EoF. You could still get some useless gear, and there was plenty of masters and status to be had from it. PoS, PPR, and DMP where still fun because it was good content. Contested form the previous expansion always got farmed. In 9 months you had 9 overland zones, 8 dungeons, 13 instances, a handful of x2 and quest raids, 8 raids, 7 contested + Avatars, and all without invalidating anything. DoV was 16 months ago, how much have we got since then? People really wonder why people are upset? lol.

Wow, this perfectly sums up my growing discontent with the current state of the game.  I played heavily during the DoF/KoS/EoF era, and it was wonderful to have that much content available and--here's the key point--worthwhile to do.  Having taken a break for several years and missed all of TSO and SF, and gotten in near the end of DoV1, it's incredibly disappointing to have the majority of that content rendered irrelevant by Skyshrine from an itemization and enemy strength/challenge perspective, just a few months after I came back.

I don't think it's just me, either.  Over the last month or so, my small, friends and family guild has gone from having three or four people on every day and enough for x2 raids on weekends(*) to having maybe two or three people logging in on weekends; for the past few weeks, I haven't even been able to get four others on at the same time to click the statues in Chelsith for my Assassin's epic quest.  When I talk with them and ask why they're not playing any more, the answer is inevitably along the lines of, "Bored with SS already" or "Sick of doing the same few zones over and over."

And, the worst part is that I can't really blame them.  Unless you're just sightseeing, why would you want to run through zones where you can steamroll the mobs with no challenge and get nothing of use for your time?  I can't speak to the raid zones, but I know I would love to be able to do the various SF and earlier DoV heroic zones without the nagging feeling that I'm wasting my time (even more than usual for playing an MMO, heh).

It seems as though more recent content has become so focused on providing a rail-roaded "progression" experience that content which really ought to still be viable has been rendered obsolete simply because it isn't the very latest and greatest.  In contrast to the KoS/EoF model, it feels like going from a wide-open field to a narrow trail, and I--along with what seems like a growing number of other people--don't think I enjoy feeling so constrained.

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Old 06-12-2012, 03:41 PM   #38
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Slippery's post is spot on.Its like no one actually thinkings ahead when tossing things out anymore.In the past, there was planning, there was pretty solid integration of new content within the same level range.  So the top end usually had pretty extensive USEFUL content.

Now the last several years SoE seems to want to totally invalidate existing content as much as possible.  Imagine the options if SF wouldn't have been 100% negated by DoV, and DoV 100% negated by Skyshrine.  Instead, we are just shoved into a couple of zones and thats it.  Extremely poor planning.

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Old 06-13-2012, 04:53 AM   #39
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I never said that current EQ2 subscribers don't have any reason to be upset. I completely agree that EQ2 is in a very bad state right now, and that the amount of relevant content available in the game is smaller now than possibly in its entire history. Don't mistake my posts for absolving SOE of blame.

What I am saying is that my recollection of SOE's communication practices over the past decade doesn't match with yours. I can recall people complaining about SOE ignoring their feedback and neglecting to fix known bugs since they were known as Verant Interactive (back in the old EQ1 days). This hasn't really changed significantly as far as I can see (and indeed, isn't really all that different from the practices of any major game studio). The EQ2 community just seems to focus on it a lot more than other game communities of which I have been a member.

The point I am trying to make is that what good, constructive feedback there is on these boards invariably gets buried in threads full of name-calling and snark. SOE definitely deserves criticism for their mistakes, but I also firmly believe that the current state of the EQ2 forum community is far too hostile to act as an effective medium for dialogue. I also believe that if we, as a community, were less accepting of dev-bashing and tried to be more respectful, we might actually derive more power to enact positive change.

Really, it just comes down to the simple fact that the devs are people, and people are a lot more receptive to feedback when they're in a good mood and not being referred-to as soulless, money-grubbing incompetents.

***EDIT***

I just wanted to add, a couple of people have brought-up Domino, the former Tradeskill dev. She is, in my opinion, a perfect example of what I am talking about. The tradeskill community was quite happy and positive with her, and because of the communication between her rand the tradeskill community, a lot of advancement occurred. This shows fostering a mutually-respectful culture can be favorable for both sides. Allow me to re-iterate also: I don't place blame on either SOE or the EQ2 forum community individually, I am saying it takes a conscious effort on both sides to maintain communication. The moment you rationalize your own misbehavior by citing the misbehavior of others, you become a part of the problem.

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Old 06-13-2012, 09:48 AM   #40
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The_Cheeseman wrote:

I never said that current EQ2 subscribers don't have any reason to be upset. I completely agree that EQ2 is in a very bad state right now, and that the amount of relevant content available in the game is smaller now than possibly in its entire history. Don't mistake my posts for absolving SOE of blame.

What I am saying is that my recollection of SOE's communication practices over the past decade doesn't match with yours. I can recall people complaining about SOE ignoring their feedback and neglecting to fix known bugs since they were known as Verant Interactive (back in the old EQ1 days). This hasn't really changed significantly as far as I can see (and indeed, isn't really all that different from the practices of any major game studio). The EQ2 community just seems to focus on it a lot more than other game communities of which I have been a member.

The point I am trying to make is that what good, constructive feedback there is on these boards invariably gets buried in threads full of name-calling and snark. SOE definitely deserves criticism for their mistakes, but I also firmly believe that the current state of the EQ2 forum community is far too hostile to act as an effective medium for dialogue. I also believe that if we, as a community, were less accepting of dev-bashing and tried to be more respectful, we might actually derive more power to enact positive change.

Really, it just comes down to the simple fact that the devs are people, and people are a lot more receptive to feedback when they're in a good mood and not being referred-to as soulless, money-grubbing incompetents.

***EDIT***

I just wanted to add, a couple of people have brought-up Domino, the former Tradeskill dev. She is, in my opinion, a perfect example of what I am talking about. The tradeskill community was quite happy and positive with her, and because of the communication between her rand the tradeskill community, a lot of advancement occurred. This shows fostering a mutually-respectful culture can be favorable for both sides. Allow me to re-iterate also: I don't place blame on either SOE or the EQ2 forum community individually, I am saying it takes a conscious effort on both sides to maintain communication. The moment you rationalize your own misbehavior by citing the misbehavior of others, you become a part of the problem.

Then again, she was very responsive to the tradeskill community consistently.   She addressed issues head on.   Even if some of us strongly disagreed with decisions made (like removing the pristine bonus), she still responded.   She gave her reasoning and recognized that not everyone was happy with the decision but it was going to be the way they changed it.   We could respect that.

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Old 06-13-2012, 10:59 AM   #41
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The_Cheeseman wrote:

feldon30 wrote:

* Time spent posting on the forums to update players on an issue is time taken away from development.* No matter what the devs do, there will be an onslaught of negativity.I can post countless examples that disprove these two fallacies.

Neither of those assertions are fallacies, if anything they would merely be premises from which to form an argument. The first statement I agree is incorrect (the devs have plenty of time off-the-clock for posting in the forums) whereas the second is merely an observation I have found to be mostly accurate having been a part of this community since its inception. I find it quite ironic that the only contribution this post makes to the discussion is to negate other posters' comments. In any case, my point still stands: you catch more flies with honey than with vinegar.

I'm sure you have a job, just as many other EQ2 players do. So, if you work 40+ hours a week at your job, would you like being told you could work even more on things related to your job during your own time (i.e. "off the clock")? When you get home from work and/or on the weekends, are you eager to go and read 100 emails and compose and send 20-30 email responses of varying lengths? Should you feel obligated to do so every night after work, every weekend, every day you're on vacation? Would you be as willing to give up your time 'away from work' (i.e. "off the clock") as you advocate the devs should?

I am completely and utterly baffled by those who don't realise that the development and other staff working on an MMOG (or other game types) are employees working at a job (just like you're an employee working at a job) and that they deserve their time away from work just as much as you do. They are not hired to work 24/7 or even be at the consant beck and call of the players. Heck, even hospital doctors have days off and aren't expected to put in additional work for the office when they're not "on the clock".

Besides, those devs who do spend any time on the forums "off the clock" and post on this or that within their realm of development are often chided (or rather lamblasted) for not spending time on thus and so issue for which they have zero expertise or even knowledge of. Look at many responses to TTobey's "off the clock" posts in the Look and Feel forum. He's an animation artist but has been taken to task for posting on art issues instead of fixing itemisation, encounter mechanics, bugs which are in no way art related, etc.

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Old 06-13-2012, 11:37 AM   #42
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Rijacki wrote:

The_Cheeseman wrote:

feldon30 wrote:

* Time spent posting on the forums to update players on an issue is time taken away from development.* No matter what the devs do, there will be an onslaught of negativity.I can post countless examples that disprove these two fallacies.

Neither of those assertions are fallacies, if anything they would merely be premises from which to form an argument. The first statement I agree is incorrect (the devs have plenty of time off-the-clock for posting in the forums) whereas the second is merely an observation I have found to be mostly accurate having been a part of this community since its inception. I find it quite ironic that the only contribution this post makes to the discussion is to negate other posters' comments. In any case, my point still stands: you catch more flies with honey than with vinegar.

I'm sure you have a job, just as many other EQ2 players do. So, if you work 40+ hours a week at your job, would you like being told you could work even more on things related to your job during your own time (i.e. "off the clock")? When you get home from work and/or on the weekends, are you eager to go and read 100 emails and compose and send 20-30 email responses of varying lengths? Should you feel obligated to do so every night after work, every weekend, every day you're on vacation? Would you be as willing to give up your time 'away from work' (i.e. "off the clock") as you advocate the devs should?

I am completely and utterly baffled by those who don't realise that the development and other staff working on an MMOG (or other game types) are employees working at a job (just like you're an employee working at a job) and that they deserve their time away from work just as much as you do. They are not hired to work 24/7 or even be at the consant beck and call of the players. Heck, even hospital doctors have days off and aren't expected to put in additional work for the office when they're not "on the clock".

Besides, those devs who do spend any time on the forums "off the clock" and post on this or that within their realm of development are often chided (or rather lamblasted) for not spending time on thus and so issue for which they have zero expertise or even knowledge of. Look at many responses to TTobey's "off the clock" posts in the Look and Feel forum. He's an animation artist but has been taken to task for posting on art issues instead of fixing itemisation, encounter mechanics, bugs which are in no way art related, etc.

I guess its a good thing they're game designers and not teachers, petroleum engineers, doctors, or every other job that requires you do work outside of a window of 40 hours a week and outside of the office.

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Old 06-13-2012, 12:41 PM   #43
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Rijacki wrote:

Look at many responses to TTobey's "off the clock" posts in the Look and Feel forum. He's an animation artist but has been taken to task for posting on art issues instead of fixing itemisation, encounter mechanics, bugs which are in no way art related, etc.

Tradeskills, Art & Animation, and Events (*wave to Kaitheel*) have been on the ball with issues, bug fixes, engaging the community, all while making the Test community feel that their efforts are worth something, and lead to fewer bugs in content that reaches the live servers.

On the other hand, the areas of the game you talk about (itemisation, mechanics, etc.) frequently leave us in the dark for months. There is no rhyme or reason about which topic they'll respond to.

I 'm puzzled at folks who cannot distinguish between the devs that kept us in the loop (Rothgar on in-game UI too!) and those that haven't. Also, Cheeseman is pulling the old straw man argument that for Devs to post on the forums, they must do so off the clock or somehow make special time for it. Also, the folks who say "no matter what SOE/devs/designers post, people will be negative" have no experience with Customer Experience Innovation (CEI).

Companies from 1/100th to 100 times the size of SOE manage a consistent, engaging communications strategy with their customers. That tells me that there has been a conscious choice by SOE not to have one.

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Old 06-13-2012, 01:28 PM   #44
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Faecia wrote:

Rijacki wrote:

The_Cheeseman wrote:

feldon30 wrote:

* Time spent posting on the forums to update players on an issue is time taken away from development.* No matter what the devs do, there will be an onslaught of negativity.I can post countless examples that disprove these two fallacies.

Neither of those assertions are fallacies, if anything they would merely be premises from which to form an argument. The first statement I agree is incorrect (the devs have plenty of time off-the-clock for posting in the forums) whereas the second is merely an observation I have found to be mostly accurate having been a part of this community since its inception. I find it quite ironic that the only contribution this post makes to the discussion is to negate other posters' comments. In any case, my point still stands: you catch more flies with honey than with vinegar.

I'm sure you have a job, just as many other EQ2 players do. So, if you work 40+ hours a week at your job, would you like being told you could work even more on things related to your job during your own time (i.e. "off the clock")? When you get home from work and/or on the weekends, are you eager to go and read 100 emails and compose and send 20-30 email responses of varying lengths? Should you feel obligated to do so every night after work, every weekend, every day you're on vacation? Would you be as willing to give up your time 'away from work' (i.e. "off the clock") as you advocate the devs should?

I am completely and utterly baffled by those who don't realise that the development and other staff working on an MMOG (or other game types) are employees working at a job (just like you're an employee working at a job) and that they deserve their time away from work just as much as you do. They are not hired to work 24/7 or even be at the consant beck and call of the players. Heck, even hospital doctors have days off and aren't expected to put in additional work for the office when they're not "on the clock".

Besides, those devs who do spend any time on the forums "off the clock" and post on this or that within their realm of development are often chided (or rather lamblasted) for not spending time on thus and so issue for which they have zero expertise or even knowledge of. Look at many responses to TTobey's "off the clock" posts in the Look and Feel forum. He's an animation artist but has been taken to task for posting on art issues instead of fixing itemisation, encounter mechanics, bugs which are in no way art related, etc.

I guess its a good thing they're game designers and not teachers, petroleum engineers, doctors, or every other job that requires you do work outside of a window of 40 hours a week and outside of the office.

Rijacki is spot on...though I think that more attention 'on the clock' needs to be given to the forums. Communication is cheap and easy...but ignored by SOE for some reason.

There's not really much value in comparing jobs. Teachers don't have unexpected downtime or itemization issues that pop up randomly. It's tough now...since it's been so bad for so long. People are angry and aggressive on the forum. Had communication been an ongoing focus, I don't think it would be nearly as bad.

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Old 06-13-2012, 01:32 PM   #45
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feldon30 wrote:

Companies from 1/100th to 100 times the size of SOE manage a consistent, engaging communications strategy with their customers. That tells me that there has been a conscious choice by SOE not to have one.

SoE's communication strategy is let marketing update facebook statuses and call it communication.

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Old 06-13-2012, 02:18 PM   #46
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feldon30 wrote:

Companies from 1/100th to 100 times the size of SOE manage a consistent, engaging communications strategy with their customers. That tells me that there has been a conscious choice by SOE not to have one.

If this isnt obvious to people that play this game then I am in shock.

The Everquest 2 teams MO is simple, market towards people who play this game because they have a lonely life ( notice how SC promotions are always on holidays when you should be off this game spending time with loved ones or a family, or how they spend so much money innovating technology to make people be able to live even more vicariously through there game instead of making a genuinely great game.) I really believe that the people who are hooked on this game because of its visual themes are the ones being the most manipulated in this instance, and oddly enough they are the first group to run to sonys defense, after a while I think that Everquest 2 wont be a game...well maybe for the people that like making houses and staring at shiney things to forget whatever reality may exist for them. The bottom line is this game is marketed towards escapists in a more ruthless manner than any other MMO i have seen.

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Old 06-14-2012, 12:41 AM   #47
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feldon30 wrote:

Also, Cheeseman is pulling the old straw man argument that for Devs to post on the forums, they must do so off the clock or somehow make special time for it. Also, the folks who say "no matter what SOE/devs/designers post, people will be negative" have no experience with Customer Experience Innovation (CEI).

I have made no such argument anywhere in this thread, the only time I have even mentioned the allocation of dev time was when I responded to your earlier post saying that I disagreed with that argument. The primary point I have tried to get across so far in this thread is that the forum community should try to be more respectful in general in order to improve the overall quality of communication.

You are correct that I am not familiar with Customer Experience innovation. I am a stage actor, and don't really do much in the corporate sector these days, so I am not up to speed on the newest buzzwords and strategies. What I am familiar with is MMOs, and having played several of them by various companies over the past decade, I really don't see a major difference in quantity or overall quality of communication between them. In fact, it has been my experience (and indeed this trend has been noted by professionals in the industry as well) that it tends to be communities where feedback more commonly leads to real change that are more vocal and demanding. Those communities where the developers have little or no dialogue with the players (like Final Fantasy 11 was for many years, at least for North American players) players rarely complain all that much, because they know it won't do any good.

Look over the history of EQ2, I bet you can't find any other game that has changed more over the course of its operation. The entire class system has been overhauled multiple times, itemization has been updated game-wide on several occasions, and class-balance gets tweaked nearly every major update. If anything, it's entirely possible that the EQ2 dev team listens to player feedback TOO often--to the point where the game has lost its direction and focus. I think a lot of the people who whine about devs ignoring them have never experienced a game where the dev team really doesn't care what you say, and really doesn't ever change anything.

If anything, the fact that the EQ2 community is so vocal and demanding could be due to the fact that we've been conditioned to be so by actually seeing our feedback have an effect on the game. Maybe we're just spoiled?

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Old 06-14-2012, 12:48 AM   #48
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japanfour wrote:

The Everquest 2 teams MO is simple, market towards people who play this game because they have a lonely life ( notice how SC promotions are always on holidays when you should be off this game spending time with loved ones or a family, or how they spend so much money innovating technology to make people be able to live even more vicariously through there game instead of making a genuinely great game.) I really believe that the people who are hooked on this game because of its visual themes are the ones being the most manipulated in this instance, and oddly enough they are the first group to run to sonys defense, after a while I think that Everquest 2 wont be a game...well maybe for the people that like making houses and staring at shiney things to forget whatever reality may exist for them. The bottom line is this game is marketed towards escapists in a more ruthless manner than any other MMO i have seen.

Technically speaking, none of the current crop of MMOs are really "games" per se. Most industry professionals would categorize them as "software toys." A game has an end goal, whereas most modern persistent-worlds, such as Everquest, World of Warcraft, City of Heroes, etc., do not have a goal of any kind.

So basically, you're kind of missing the point with this post. The entire purpose of something like EQ2 is to create a world for us to play in, so people who spend time in EQ2 decorating, or raiding, or just chatting with friends are all doing exactly what was intended. The game hasn't shifted its focus, it has widened it.

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Old 06-14-2012, 12:50 AM   #49
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The_Cheeseman wrote:

Maybe we're just spoiled?

Demanding broken content to be fixed is spoiled?

Demanding attention to the GAMEPLAY versus the marketplace is spoiled? Remember when this used to be a game and not a mall with a game attached?

Are we seeing our feedback have an effect on the game? Because the last time I saw that happen was a prestige hobbit hole and a backpack of otter babies on the marketplace.

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Old 06-14-2012, 01:18 AM   #50
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Faecia wrote:

Demanding broken content to be fixed is spoiled?

Demanding attention to the GAMEPLAY versus the marketplace is spoiled? Remember when this used to be a game and not a mall with a game attached?

Are we seeing our feedback have an effect on the game? Because the last time I saw that happen was a prestige hobbit hole and a backpack of otter babies on the marketplace.

Demanding that any one project be given priority above everything else the team may be working on is a bit spoiled, yes. The team does fix broken content, fairly often in fact. Like in all software, there is a priority list, and some bugs are probably pretty far down that list, and won't be covered for a long time, if ever. That's just how software development works. It's a matter of opinion whether you feel the priorities are valid.

The marketplace is part of the game, not a separate entity. You may not like it or use it (I honestly don't), but there are certainly a number of other features in EQ2 that you don't use, either. I personally wouldn't mind if crafting was removed from the game tomorrow, but I know plenty of people who live for that stuff, so I don't begrudge them new tradeskill content. Some people enjoy dressing-up their avatar in funny outfits, or collecting mounts, or building elaborate houses, and stuff on the marketplace entertains them. It's fairly easy for the SOE art people to churn that stuff out and dump it on the marketplace, so they they do it. I don't see the problem with the current dev team to be a lack of time spent on content, but rather poor design choices for that content. Specifically, the focus on item-based progression and therefore trivialization and irrelevance of the rest of the game. There has been plenty of new content released, they just keep trying to replace all the old stuff, rather than expand it.

Finally, you mention two events that happened within the last month, which seems pretty recent by any account.

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Old 06-14-2012, 03:36 AM   #51
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The_Cheeseman wrote:

Faecia wrote:

Demanding broken content to be fixed is spoiled?

Demanding attention to the GAMEPLAY versus the marketplace is spoiled? Remember when this used to be a game and not a mall with a game attached?

Are we seeing our feedback have an effect on the game? Because the last time I saw that happen was a prestige hobbit hole and a backpack of otter babies on the marketplace.

Demanding that any one project be given priority above everything else the team may be working on is a bit spoiled, yes. The team does fix broken content, fairly often in fact.

Itemization and Mechanics are the meat and potatoes of an MMO. When everything else gets fixed before them, it makes us wonder who the target audience of EQ2 is.

Also I wanted to add that Gninja has had fantastic communication about Mercenaries.

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Old 06-14-2012, 03:39 AM   #52
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The_Cheeseman wrote:

Demanding that any one project be given priority above everything else the team may be working on is a bit spoiled, yes.

EQ2: the only product in the world where expecting it to work correctly is 'a bit spoiled'. 

At your next show just hand a rough copy of the script to the audience and walk out. Afterall, it's a bit silly to expect you, a stage actor, to act on the stage, right?

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Old 06-14-2012, 08:22 AM   #53
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Malleria wrote:

The_Cheeseman wrote:

Demanding that any one project be given priority above everything else the team may be working on is a bit spoiled, yes.

EQ2: the only product in the world where expecting it to work correctly is 'a bit spoiled'. 

At your next show just hand a rough copy of the script to the audience and walk out. Afterall, it's a bit silly to expect you, a stage actor, to act on the stage, right?

This can be nothing more than an intentional gross oversimplification, I am fairly certain you understand full well that I merely mean to emphasize the need to maintain reasonable expectations. There will always be bugs. Some bugs are less severe than others. Some bugs are more complicated to fix than others. Serious, but easily fixed bugs will tend to get fixed faster than minor, difficult to fix bugs. If a bug is minor enough, and difficult enough, it may never end up getting fixed, because the return on development resources invested simply isn't great enough.

As Feldon says--and I agree--itemization and mechanics are the core of EQ2, and therefore are very important issue. However, by the same token, they are also extremely complex, and very likely to impact a large number of players, making changing them a very delicate situation. Unless you have access to SOEs internal communications, I doubt you have any way of knowing exactly what they are working on at any given time, so assuming they're ignoring itemization and mechanics is totally unfounded. They very well may be doing plenty of work trying to iron out those issues, we just don't get to see it.

Personally, I think they are doing their best to produce a quality game with engaging content and appropriate reward structures. I just think they are failing at it. Whereas many seem happy to blame lack of effort, I blame simple bad design. There may be circumstances beyond their control (past members of the SOE dev team have mentioned their bosses keeping a tight leash and being given little creative control) but I have no way of knowing that. Seems to me like they've just made some unfortunate choices.

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Old 06-14-2012, 11:51 AM   #54
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feldon30 wrote:

Itemization and Mechanics are the meat and potatoes of an MMO. When everything else gets fixed before them, it makes us wonder who the target audience of EQ2 is.

Also I wanted to add that Gninja has had fantastic communication about Mercenaries.

BINGO.

This is why so many people have left the game in the past 9 months.  It begs the question why some of us are still sticking around?

I personally have lost all hope in regards to SoE actually working on these issues.  I'm down to playing only due to dedication I have to my friends, and honestly when that is the remaining factor keeping players in your MMO, there isn't much life left for the game.

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Old 06-14-2012, 05:12 PM   #55
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Ulrichvon wrote:

It begs the question why some of us are still sticking around?

I stick around because I'm still having fun.

 

While I agree that SOE folks could do a generally better job at communicating (being "in touch" with playerbase), and that there are certainly things about the mechanics and itemization of the game that are ... vexing ... they don't quite kill the overall enjoyment I get out of the game.

I'm not a strict heroic dungeon crawler and certainly not an hardcore raider, but I can imagine how there may be some fatal flaws in the game for folks of that ilk.  That said, I've long believed that folks who only play this game--with its staggering wealth of content, even if it's "trivial"--for one small sliver of its possible experiences are intentionally limiting themselves.  I'm trying not to wax eloquent too much.  I just really have fun doing things in this game that probably seem daft to folks who could be fairly lampooned as saying "Dude, we killed all of the SS raid mobs in 2 hours today, now we have nothing to do.  We're so bored now!"  (Except they'd probably use numbers in place of some letters, but I'm being unfair.)

I have two 92/320 characters and several other alts that are getting there, not to mention helping my wife advance her toon so that we can duo together in DOV2 content; but after the oppressive atmosphere in Skyshrine and WL, it's nice to switch up and check out a zone that I've never seen before, even if there's "nothing there" content-wise.  Sure, I'll mute the drops unless they're nice appearance gear; yeah, I won't be getting AA explore XP, but I will get to see the sights.  I've been playing this game for 4 years (and EQ1 for many years before that) and even still I know that there is still a LOT to see and enjoy.

TL;DR version -- go have fun.  What is fun for you is not necessarily fun for everyone.  If you're not having fun with a game, either find something else fun in that game or find another game.  There will be more limited content of the type you want along eventually, and you can check it out then with no hard feelings.  SMILEY

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Old 06-14-2012, 06:43 PM   #56
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Gealaen_Gaiamancer wrote:

Ulrichvon wrote:

It begs the question why some of us are still sticking around?

 

TL;DR version -- go have fun.  What is fun for you is not necessarily fun for everyone.  If you're not having fun with a game, either find something else fun in that game or find another game.  There will be more limited content of the type you want along eventually, and you can check it out then with no hard feelings. 

I understand your sentiment, but I'm not going to be able to continue to run and manage a raid guild thru that endevaour.  And those of us who've played from day 1, there just isn't any fun left in repeating content anymore than we've already repeated it.

In the past there has always been enough current tier content to keep all but the top 5% or less of the game busy.  This time around, there's not enough content for the most casual of raiders to last 6 months.

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Old 06-14-2012, 09:27 PM   #57
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I agree with the above poster. There is a wealth of content in EQ2 below the level cap, but I, and many other players, already did that content repeatedly when it *was* at the level cap. We want to do new things, and to have those new things be a part of the larger world, not a replacement for it.

Look at the current tier. For level 90-ish content, we have all of Sentinel's Fate, all of Destiny of Velious 1.0, and even the scaled-up TSO zones designed for people of that level. How much of that content is actually being used? The reason why this content is not being used is simple: stat inflation on gear has made it both trivial and unrewarding. There is no challenge and no motivation to run those dungeons/raids because the gear from newer zones make them completely obsolete. So except for a one-time "tour" of the zones for the sake of exploration, they may as well not exist.

This is the crux of the issue. By focusing too strongly on item-based progression, we have been left with a world where only a tiny fraction of the available content is actually worth using.

Personally, I think the best thing for the long-term health of EQ2 would be a total itemization revamp that reduces the overall power of player gear, and a simultaneous rebalancing of content to be more generally equal across the board. In other words, nerf player characters and then rebalance all the appropriate content around that new power level. Make it so both Underfoot Depths and Underdepths are challenging and rewarding to the same raid force.

Obviously, a change like this would be beyond the scope of what the current dev team is capable of handling, and would very likely be received very poorly by the general playerbase, so is not likely to occur. But that's just my opinion of a possible solution.

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Old 06-14-2012, 10:27 PM   #58
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The_Cheeseman wrote:

[...]

Obviously, a change like this would be beyond the scope of what the current dev team is capable of handling, and would very likely be received very poorly by the general playerbase, so is not likely to occur. But that's just my opinion of a possible solution.

Here are slightly less-tedious solutions: puzzle dungeons in 'old' locations; the resource-trade-route system; or a high-level "Rift"-like item used for generating randomized encounters, against which specific items from 'old' locations must be used to defeat the generated mobsters (with the rewards being housing items or some über adornments). Open PvP in the new place would probably be too drastic.

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Old 06-15-2012, 06:51 AM   #59
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The name Everquest used to be a juggernaut in the MMO world, now it is rarely even mentioned and no where near the top 20 most popular. Obviously, we stil like the game enough to play it. We like it so much, we want to keep it around, which is why threads like these are started. It is not just to complain for the sake of complaining, its because we have seen friend after friend quit and are worried about the game we like.

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Old 06-15-2012, 08:29 AM   #60
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It should also be noted that SOE does offically support player run events.   For example.

The Festival of Unity on Anontina Bayle is player run, but SOE alters Antonica with festival tends and special things to support it.

This kind of support to the player community is almost unheard of in any game.

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