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Old 07-20-2007, 06:16 PM   #1
Cocytus

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Yeah.

 Aggro nerfs again. Way to cater to whiners and miss the bigger player base that actually plays to their best. *sigh*

For once I thought the devs actually listened and revoked an impending destruction of aggro and enormous frustration and anger to the raiding community.

I guess I was wrong.

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Old 07-20-2007, 06:20 PM   #2
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Well, they screwed up SWG.... it was only a matter of time before they screw up this game.
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Old 07-20-2007, 06:25 PM   #3
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[email protected] wrote:
Well, they screwed up SWG.... it was only a matter of time before they screw up this game.
I hate, loathe, abhor, and otherwise generally dislike the changes to my aggro transfer, but I'm ready to call "SWG" the Godwin's law of all MMO boards.  Enough.
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Old 07-20-2007, 07:12 PM   #4
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EtoilePirate wrote:
[email protected] wrote:
Well, they screwed up SWG.... it was only a matter of time before they screw up this game.
I hate, loathe, abhor, and otherwise generally dislike the changes to my aggro transfer, but I'm ready to call "SWG" the Godwin's law of all MMO boards.  Enough.
Bringing up SWG wouldn't.  But, bringing up "Godwin's law" would meet the criteia of the original intent of the law.  Congratulations.
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Old 07-20-2007, 07:23 PM   #5
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I agree, this is just dumb. "Modified effectiveness on certain hate increase/reduction/transfer abilities on scout classes and coercers. This makes all achievements that modify hate more worthwhile, and places slightly more responsibility on predators/rogues in controlling their aggro generation." Does SOE even realize by wasting points going down a dehate line your DPS decreases enough so as to not generate enough aggro to steal it from the tank in the first place?  You may as well leave AAs unspent instead of going down the lines. It's not going to add any more skill to the game, it's just going to put crappy players more on par with good players (crappy players unable to parse high, and good players forced to parse low...) and overall decrease raid dps.  As if crappy trash mobs that do nothing except have a few million hitpoints weren't annoying enough.
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Old 07-20-2007, 07:33 PM   #6
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[email protected] wrote:
Does SOE even realize by wasting points going down a dehate line your DPS decreases enough so as to not generate enough aggro to steal it from the tank in the first place?  You may as well leave AAs unspent instead of going down the lines.

Sorcerers have been suffering this problem since the inception of the KoS AA's.

"Do I go down the detaunt line to avoid dying all the time? But swiping points from another line will reduce my dps enough not the necessarily warrant placing the unspent points at all... what to do what to do"

Im afraid that crux still exists today. It's not new to the game and it's not something SOE feels is dire.

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Old 07-20-2007, 07:50 PM   #7
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[email protected] wrote:
I agree, this is just dumb. "Modified effectiveness on certain hate increase/reduction/transfer abilities on scout classes and coercers. This makes all achievements that modify hate more worthwhile, and places slightly more responsibility on predators/rogues in controlling their aggro generation." Does SOE even realize by wasting points going down a dehate line your DPS decreases enough so as to not generate enough aggro to steal it from the tank in the first place?  You may as well leave AAs unspent instead of going down the lines. It's not going to add any more skill to the game, it's just going to put crappy players more on par with good players (crappy players unable to parse high, and good players forced to parse low...) and overall decrease raid dps.  As if crappy trash mobs that do nothing except have a few million hitpoints weren't annoying enough.
Yep, what if a swashy even would think of taking the int line, he would lose pretty much all dps in one go.
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Old 07-20-2007, 08:13 PM   #8
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I think that is really no problem!

Only Epics have to loose arround 30% of their hitpoints and everything is nice again.

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Old 07-20-2007, 08:47 PM   #9
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DEVS. YOU EITHER NEED HATE DECREASING LINES OR YOU DON'T. THERE IS NO IN BETWEEN. GET IT THROUGH YOUR HEADS AND COMPLETELY REDO DEAGGRO LINES INTO SOMETHING LESS USELESS.

Clear enough? SMILEY

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Old 07-20-2007, 10:53 PM   #10
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If it helps you any, you can see if you can get a monk in your group we have Aggro vents for other classes being added.  You just need to get the Devs to increase the Monk hate venting.
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Old 07-20-2007, 11:30 PM   #11
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As it stands there's absolutely no risk whatsoever for most scouts in a group or raid setting.  Although the changes are heavy-handed, I can see an obvious need for them. Why should there only be a couple classes capable of taking hate when kicking out a ton of DPS? Suck it up.  It's not that bad once you get used to it.
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Old 07-20-2007, 11:32 PM   #12
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Can someone please explain what really is happening?

*doesnt quite understand the notes*

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Old 07-20-2007, 11:55 PM   #13
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Well 7/10 for the attempt, 3/10 for the actual results. Slightly more reason to bring a crusader (mitigation xfer) and brawlers (dehate) on a raid, But:
  • Existing MTs are going to find it a lot harder to maintain aggro, that includes the few SKs who've managed to squeak in using coercer, dirge, assassin, swash to somehow manage credible hate gain.
  • I'd say troubadors can finally just quit altogether, except Alin's is still more than other classes get even in its nerfed form
  • Paladins the preferred MT now? Amends is now the #1 uncontested MT hate tool, as a result of every other hate ability being nerfed.
  • And to top it all off, SKs now are less useable soling or small grouping with reaver nerfed, so may as well just leave altogether
NOT HAPPY JAN
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Old 07-21-2007, 12:46 AM   #14
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The main problem with this is that it closes the gap between good players, and horrible players, imo.
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Old 07-21-2007, 04:19 AM   #15
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I don't know if they plan on adjusting the de-aggro values in the skill of Evade for Monks, but as it stands now every 20 seconds you would be able to drop the hate of everyone but fighters in your group by 793-970.

That equates to 2379 to 2910 hate per minute.  I'm not sure how that compares to the classes affected and what you lose in the next update, but that equates to just under 3 taunts from a Monk, group or single. 

Also factor in a monk can syphon 9% hate from any non-fighter as well and you'd have a pretty good choice for a possible new addition to your raid dps groups.

Its a start anyways.  I'm sure there are better classes for the job than Monks (seems to be our trademark).

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Old 07-21-2007, 04:44 AM   #16
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Shhh quite on the last part, you will give them bad ideas!

One Monk maybe two in the DPS group maby one in the MT group to keep the healers safe. (posible increase in our hate venting) should help us.

I will have to go over my Monk AA's see if I have enough tasked for the jobs I will likely be asked for.

Hmmmmmmmm, something that might help is sending your favorite Monk invites to get Wu's pieces and other double attack or life-tap proc items as that will help with out dps and hate gain.

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Old 07-21-2007, 09:25 AM   #17
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[email protected] wrote:
As it stands there's absolutely no risk whatsoever for most scouts in a group or raid setting.  Although the changes are heavy-handed, I can see an obvious need for them. Why should there only be a couple classes capable of taking hate when kicking out a ton of DPS? Suck it up.  It's not that bad once you get used to it.
QFE, especially the BOLDED part.
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Old 07-21-2007, 09:28 AM   #18
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Cocytus wrote:
The main problem with this is that it closes the gap between good players, and horrible players, imo.

No, I think it's going to widen the gap.

GOOD players who already know how to control their aggro will quickly adapt & get even better.

BAD players that don't have a clue how to control aggro will either LEARN how & improve themselves, or will still mash buttons wildly trying to figure out what's going on.

Drive on, or pull over!

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Old 07-21-2007, 09:30 AM   #19
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livejazz wrote:

No, I think it's going to widen the gap.

GOOD players who already know how to control their aggro will quickly adapt & get even better.

BAD players that don't have a clue how to control aggro will either LEARN how & improve themselves, or will still mash buttons wildly trying to figure out what's going on.

Drive on, or pull over!

See here is where your wrong

Good players are good because they learn

Bad players are bad because they refuse to learn

I have seen plenty a player in treasuer/legendary gear do far better with their toon than say someone in full fabled

The gap will get wider

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Old 07-21-2007, 09:48 AM   #20
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Mr. Dawkins wrote:
livejazz wrote:

No, I think it's going to widen the gap.

GOOD players who already know how to control their aggro will quickly adapt & get even better.

BAD players that don't have a clue how to control aggro will either LEARN how & improve themselves, or will still mash buttons wildly trying to figure out what's going on.

Drive on, or pull over!

See here is where your wrong

Good players are good because they learn

Bad players are bad because they refuse to learn

I have seen plenty a player in treasuer/legendary gear do far better with their toon than say someone in full fabled

The gap will get wider

No kidding, the gap will get wider. That's what I said.

Cocytus is the one who said this change will CLOSE that gap. Either you replied to the wrong person, or ..............

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Old 07-21-2007, 09:59 AM   #21
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okies , another GU36 coming up...hope they keep aggro how it is as theres already an EXTREMELY small line between aggro and death as a sorceror and atm i can only just do 1.5k zw without loads of deaths , with hate nerfs then the mt will have less hate and thus the sorceror cant do as much dps..please change it.
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Old 07-21-2007, 11:41 AM   #22
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livejazz wrote:
Cocytus wrote:
The main problem with this is that it closes the gap between good players, and horrible players, imo.

No, I think it's going to widen the gap.

GOOD players who already know how to control their aggro will quickly adapt & get even better.

BAD players that don't have a clue how to control aggro will either LEARN how & improve themselves, or will still mash buttons wildly trying to figure out what's going on.

Drive on, or pull over!

Lets see... GOOD players - High dps, will have more aggro problems than before nerf. Will most likely have their dps drop as a result. BAD players - Low dps, have no aggro problems now, will most likely not have aggro problems after nerf. At best, the gap remains the same. There might be a difference somewhere in the middle where the reduced aggro will actually make a difference, but the difference between the best and worst will remain the same at best.
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Old 07-21-2007, 12:16 PM   #23
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livejazz wrote:
[email protected] wrote:
As it stands there's absolutely no risk whatsoever for most scouts in a group or raid setting.  Although the changes are heavy-handed, I can see an obvious need for them. Why should there only be a couple classes capable of taking hate when kicking out a ton of DPS? Suck it up.  It's not that bad once you get used to it.
QFE, especially the BOLDED part.

Actually you two are totally  missing the real effect here.  Casters will be hit ALOT harder by this than scouts.  The cap of 50% for increasers and reducers basically means.  With a Typical Tank Setup.  Dirge decrease well this means alot of tanks will respec to the strength line at least the 4th ability.  Kudos SOE the change does not in fact open the posibilities for more AA choices for tanks it recduces them.  That at least will get you to 46% and be close enough.  Course the Swash/assasin transfer in the main tank group lowering lowers TPS for the tank for EVEYRONE.  For Most scouts this means working Evade into our regular rotation and not saving it for a woops I pulled aggro better get it off me.  Then if your dps group is setup properly with Troubs then Rangers are still cool 27%+34%>50%  and I'm pretty sure brigands won't be affected to much by the change other than they can't do that spiffy two bringand backstab swap thing they did in groups.   Assassin's will have a harder time and given the overall TPS decrease of the MTG and the lowered reducer of the troub then Mages will in fact be screwed since they have nothing else they can add.  And are taking about a net 10% + plus the transfer reduction in their Threat Per Second differential with the tank. 

 This change isn't about making scouts work harder its about lowering overal raid dps at the top end and pulling money out of the economy through mender bots and repair bills as we will die more expecially with all the mobs that stun/stifle the main tank to make aggro even more of a pain.   So arbitrarily forcing good players dps down to the point where crappy players can achieve is what Cocytus meant and effectivly thats what this does, along with kill mages or force them to lower their dps by going down the reducer lines, which as we all know is a paradox.   

 The fact of the matter is it takes ALOT of effort to put together the ideal raid force with all the right recuders and transfers and increasers and threat management tools and when you have it all together you are still running a razors edge of your top dps pulling aggro, and I don't think the ideal raid force is something that most raid forces on the server ever actually achieve.  These changes definatly hurt the guilds that can't get all the right threat management they need in place more as it diminshes what little they can get. 

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Old 07-21-2007, 01:56 PM   #24
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livejazz wrote:
[email protected] wrote:
As it stands there's absolutely no risk whatsoever for most scouts in a group or raid setting.  Although the changes are heavy-handed, I can see an obvious need for them. Why should there only be a couple classes capable of taking hate when kicking out a ton of DPS? Suck it up.  It's not that bad once you get used to it.
QFE, especially the BOLDED part.
 LMFAO, You do understand that nerfed hate transfer from swashy and assasins does not mean dead hatefeeders right? It means dead mages I still have my tools to get the mobs off me if i pull agro. Ill just hit hideaway and watch as the mob zooms to the next on the hate list. Normaly this would be right back to the tank. But since the tank is NOT going to be any where near as high on the hate as he was before it will probly mean right to a mage.  You really need to understand reduced hatefeeds means everyone does less dps not just the scouts.
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Old 07-21-2007, 02:07 PM   #25
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 Well heres a thought.  notice how the mobs in the new raid instance Tunara throne ? ( cant remember the exact name) can stun the whole raid ? effectly lowering the whole raid's dps, now 2 waves of attempts to change hate in essence to lower raid dps ?" imho they are trying to slow down the progression and lengthen the time  it takes to do the instances, and the way it looks is  by the time 1 or 2 more expantions, we will be right where eq 1 was. 6+ hours to raid the top end  raid instances
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Old 07-21-2007, 02:17 PM   #26
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"You really need to understand reduced hatefeeds means everyone does less dps not just the scouts." ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I rank that as a good thing.  Mobs die to fast currently because people do ridiculous dps in group settings.  Bottom line is that even if sorcerers have to do a bit less damage, they are much closer to parity with scouts.  Parity is a very important concept in an MMO.  It determines class popularity both in terms of what people play and who people will ask to join their group.  On the other hand, raw power can be a detriment.  Overpowered classes trivialize the game and thus make it less fun for themselves while simultaneously making other class choices less likely to be chosen.  The other thing I'm happy about with this change is that tanks may be forced to actually make choices between damage/hate gain and pure defense.  Currently there's no real tradeoff, you buff your defensive aspects wherever possible and aggro generally just happens. 
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Old 07-21-2007, 02:39 PM   #27
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EvilIguana966 wrote:
"You really need to understand reduced hatefeeds means everyone does less dps not just the scouts." ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I rank that as a good thing.  Mobs die to fast currently because people do ridiculous dps in group settings.  Bottom line is that even if sorcerers have to do a bit less damage, they are much closer to parity with scouts.  Parity is a very important concept in an MMO.  It determines class popularity both in terms of what people play and who people will ask to join their group.  On the other hand, raw power can be a detriment.  Overpowered classes trivialize the game and thus make it less fun for themselves while simultaneously making other class choices less likely to be chosen.  The other thing I'm happy about with this change is that tanks may be forced to actually make choices between damage/hate gain and pure defense.  Currently there's no real tradeoff, you buff your defensive aspects wherever possible and aggro generally just happens. 
 Actually as a swashy the hatefeed nerf will not limit MY dps it will limit the mages dps. I have tools to deagro. I can still go balls out on a mob with out fear because i have hate dumps. So i recend my earlier statement of everyone will do less dps. Its the mages that will have to limit there dps more. Just do me a favor mages when you do get the agro please stand still so i can still get behind the mobs hehe!
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Old 07-21-2007, 03:40 PM   #28
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NiteWolfe wrote:
Just do me a favor mages when you do get the agro please stand still so i can still get behind the mobs hehe!
amen
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Old 07-21-2007, 05:25 PM   #29
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1. This hits mages a lot harder than scouts, because it means less hate for the tank, which is stupid.

2. Yes, this DOES close the gap between good players and bad players. Why? Good players do good dps, the best their class can do. What will happen? These good players will now pull aggro and have to do less dps....Less dps, down where the BAD players are.

It makes me very sad how few people understand what player skill is, apparently this includes the devs. Guess they think there's no such thing as skill in eq2 - but I guess I should have realized this sooner, given how many game changes have been made thanks to whiney pvp players not willing to come up with strategies SMILEY

Again though, the big problem with this is...Good sorcerers already have aggro problems semi-regularly. This won't make things any better for them, it'll make it far worse.

Sony's kinda moving away from tedium = difficulty = fun, and moving more toward the pain in the [I cannot control my vocabulary] = difficulty = fun.

Kinda like Impossible Mario.

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Old 07-21-2007, 05:44 PM   #30
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I agree... Why screw up current aggro control just to make useless aa lines a little bit useful (read absolutely required to not get [Removed for Content] pwned). As an assassin, I can typically control my own aggro.  But because I can dps so highly, I can make sure our mages can do their best without getting owned by taking hate and one shotted.  If you nerf the transfer rate too terribly (master I is 29%, if it gets taken much lower than 20% it's going to be useless), our mages will be in trouble.
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