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Old 07-10-2007, 03:46 PM   #61
CHIMPNOODLE.

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[email protected] wrote:

The funny thing is, I switched from my high DPS/low defence SK to my Guardian, only to respec AAs and change gear to lower his defence and up his DPS. And yet he still takes less damage and now out DPSs my SK (zonewides of 1100 or so).

 I don't have any answers as to what can be done about this mind you, maybe a tweak to the mit boost from Despoil, or a reduction in recast. Or pumping up our damage shield. Guardian abilities to soak up damage spikes is hard to beat.

Not sure, my SK has always been super defensively specc'd. My DPS is lowish for an SK overall, but close to par with guards who are not Buckler specc'd. Don't notice much of a large difference in incoming dammage for most encounters either when we run guard or SK as MT. I'm very far into diminishing returns for Miti when tanking so there is no need for additional Mit for me, I would probably benefit more from giving some up...I just hate to see the numbers drop lol. A little extra avoid would be welcome though. It's more difficult for me to push it as high as I'd like with my current items, and still maintain the Miti level I like.
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Old 07-12-2007, 01:11 PM   #62
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One idea i think would be really usefull is an AA that allows all of our lifetaps that we cast during a raid to instead heal someone else, this way you aren't just lifetaping over and over again at full hp the heals infact doing nothing
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Old 07-12-2007, 02:04 PM   #63
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[email protected] wrote:
One idea i think would be really usefull is an AA that allows all of our lifetaps that we cast during a raid to instead heal someone else, this way you aren't just lifetaping over and over again at full hp the heals infact doing nothing
Or just go the easier way and give us a sacrificial heal. SMILEY We heal, then lifetap the health back.
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Old 07-12-2007, 04:34 PM   #64
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Umm... that sounds a lot like intercept
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Old 07-12-2007, 05:58 PM   #65
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CHIMPNOODLE. wrote:
Not sure, my SK has always been super defensively specc'd. My DPS is lowish for an SK overall, but close to par with guards who are not Buckler specc'd. Don't notice much of a large difference in incoming dammage for most encounters either when we run guard or SK as MT. I'm very far into diminishing returns for Miti when tanking so there is no need for additional Mit for me, I would probably benefit more from giving some up...I just hate to see the numbers drop lol. A little extra avoid would be welcome though. It's more difficult for me to push it as high as I'd like with my current items, and still maintain the Miti level I like.

How about making Dispoil a reactive buff that has a percent chance to proc when hit?  I was doing some comparisons of my SK with a friend of mines Guardian, and the major difference was that his avoidence was almost 18% higher then and I was in better gear.  Mitigation at 4500 to 5500 means so little its stupid. 4500 mit is something near 56% and 5500 is almost 60% I think. 

What appears to be the main difference is the Avoidence.  When raid mobs are now doing 4K to 5K of damage per hit AFTER the 60% mit, avoidence is going to matter the most.  If Guardian A has an avoidence of 60% vs Shadowkinght B avoidence of 40%.  The guardian is hands down better.  I have seen Berzerkers tank better in Offensive stance then SKs in defensive for this very reason, they have an Avoidance that far exceeds ours.

Something that could help SK's would be a parry or block buff.  ***OR*** How about a buff, since we are Pure EVIL and half casters, a Lich like spell that constantly consumes power say 1% every 6 seconds that gives us a Deflection buff of X%.  It would be unique for the class and give us the needed avoidence for higher end fights.


Spell:  Visage of Terror Cost:   5% mana cast  1% mana every 6 seconds

Target: Self Duration: Until Canceled

Effect: Increases caster deflection by 5%(Adept) vs 10%(Master)

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Old 07-12-2007, 06:10 PM   #66
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I'd take any increase to avoid. The diffs are usually not as extreme as 20% though. More in the line of 4 to 7%...seen as low as a 2% diff, really depends on what both toons are focusing on. Usually the average resists are higher on the SKs and the healbacks definitely factor in, but ya...extra avoid would be nice SMILEY Some of the guards and Zerks I raid with struggle on some mobs that I find pushovers, even with similar "tanking" stats...they are at diff stages of gear up and skill, so the player factor is always there as well.

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Old 07-12-2007, 06:14 PM   #67
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[email protected] wrote:
Umm... that sounds a lot like intercept
cept that intercept is wildly large in its "heal" spread. anything from 0 to hundreds of thousands of damage. I'd prefer something a bit more reliable. SMILEY
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Old 07-13-2007, 09:27 AM   #68
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most i have eaten on an intercept was 10k from vyyme.  right after EoF came out
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Old 07-13-2007, 10:02 AM   #69
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[email protected] wrote:
most i have eaten on an intercept was 10k from vyyme.  right after EoF came out
YAh, that should be what it would hit you for unless the tank pulls red epics. SMILEY
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Old 07-13-2007, 12:35 PM   #70
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That a was a rough week right after EoF came out.  Those bugs borked resists and mit for a bit.  Being in treasured gear didnt help none either.
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Old 07-13-2007, 06:44 PM   #71
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Hm, here's a stupid idea I just had. How about a rez on a long timer, kind of like a reanimation thing. 20-30 minute cooldown, usable in combat. It brings a raid ally back to life for a few minutes with 10% more damage and 10% more healing. That kind of thing, come back to life for a few minutes in a buffed state, do some dps or heal or whatever, then it wears off and they go back unconcious. No durability damage on the second death. That'd be pretty rad. Kind of seems like a necro thing though. Paladins could get a similar buff.
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Old 07-14-2007, 05:26 AM   #72
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Too many SK's want to be DPS.  Start thinking utility.  What can we offer a raid/MT Pledge of Armament - Raid wide An AA ability like a Fury gets, where an aly in their group gets the use of their Salve line of spells.  Our lifetaps. Those are just two.  You want raid tank ideas?  Temp mit buffs like warriors get.

I'm sure there are more (FYI - I really didn't read all of this thread, so its possible these ideas were posted.  Sorry, just my thoughts)

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Old 07-14-2007, 03:22 PM   #73
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As Shadowknights, the last thing we need is more MIT. With decent gear, Siphon Armament and Despoil we already have the ability to spike our MIT higher than any other class. What we need is +Def. and +HP buffs other than our defensive stance like Guardians.
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Old 07-15-2007, 08:55 AM   #74
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Dead Knight wrote:
As Shadowknights, the last thing we need is more MIT. With decent gear, Siphon Armament and Despoil we already have the ability to spike our MIT higher than any other class. What we need is +Def. and +HP buffs other than our defensive stance like Guardians.

To be honest I'm not so sure about that. My SK was my main raiding char for 8 months, and since he was MT I concentrated on getting the best mit I could. His mit self buffed when I stopped playing him was 5219. After I switched to my Guardian and have been playing him a while, his self buffed maximum mit is 4886. With Command and Wall of Force at M1, I can spike it at 7018. With Despoil also at M1 and adding 336 for the enemies around me, I need to have at least 6 to get higher than my Guardian can, and he can't get near the Guards avoidance.

 The thing that always annoyed me about my SK most was something else you mention, and was highlighted in a post on the Pally forums where they all posted to compare mit/avoid/AAs/HP/Power. I was one of a handful of SKs posting their stats for comparison, and despite having one of the top mitigations, my HP was quite low. Even now it's already over 1000 lower than my Guardian self buffed, maybe that's something that could be addressed, the low HP pool really plays a part in how long you survive as MT when the figure is in the thousands.

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Old 07-15-2007, 02:47 PM   #75
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[email protected] wrote:
Dead Knight wrote:
As Shadowknights, the last thing we need is more MIT. With decent gear, Siphon Armament and Despoil we already have the ability to spike our MIT higher than any other class. What we need is +Def. and +HP buffs other than our defensive stance like Guardians.

To be honest I'm not so sure about that. My SK was my main raiding char for 8 months, and since he was MT I concentrated on getting the best mit I could. His mit self buffed when I stopped playing him was 5219. After I switched to my Guardian and have been playing him a while, his self buffed maximum mit is 4886. With Command and Wall of Force at M1, I can spike it at 7018. With Despoil also at M1 and adding 336 for the enemies around me, I need to have at least 6 to get higher than my Guardian can, and he can't get near the Guards avoidance.

 The thing that always annoyed me about my SK most was something else you mention, and was highlighted in a post on the Pally forums where they all posted to compare mit/avoid/AAs/HP/Power. I was one of a handful of SKs posting their stats for comparison, and despite having one of the top mitigations, my HP was quite low. Even now it's already over 1000 lower than my Guardian self buffed, maybe that's something that could be addressed, the low HP pool really plays a part in how long you survive as MT when the figure is in the thousands.

Thats unlikely to change Crusaders are meant to have the lowest hp/highest power of fighters, brawlers highest hp/ lowest power, and warriors are the middle ground. 
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Old 07-15-2007, 03:08 PM   #76
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Exactly, and since mitigation means less and less (and ours isn't able to go as high as Warriors as conveniently), and our avoidance isn't the same, we're unlikely to suddenly be attractive raid MTs unless something changes.
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Old 07-15-2007, 04:02 PM   #77
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Wildmage wrote:
[email protected] wrote:
Dead Knight wrote:
As Shadowknights, the last thing we need is more MIT. With decent gear, Siphon Armament and Despoil we already have the ability to spike our MIT higher than any other class. What we need is +Def. and +HP buffs other than our defensive stance like Guardians.

To be honest I'm not so sure about that. My SK was my main raiding char for 8 months, and since he was MT I concentrated on getting the best mit I could. His mit self buffed when I stopped playing him was 5219. After I switched to my Guardian and have been playing him a while, his self buffed maximum mit is 4886. With Command and Wall of Force at M1, I can spike it at 7018. With Despoil also at M1 and adding 336 for the enemies around me, I need to have at least 6 to get higher than my Guardian can, and he can't get near the Guards avoidance.

 The thing that always annoyed me about my SK most was something else you mention, and was highlighted in a post on the Pally forums where they all posted to compare mit/avoid/AAs/HP/Power. I was one of a handful of SKs posting their stats for comparison, and despite having one of the top mitigations, my HP was quite low. Even now it's already over 1000 lower than my Guardian self buffed, maybe that's something that could be addressed, the low HP pool really plays a part in how long you survive as MT when the figure is in the thousands.

Thats unlikely to change Crusaders are meant to have the lowest hp/highest power of fighters, brawlers highest hp/ lowest power, and warriors are the middle ground. 
problem is, its not true. Crusaders have the least power and hp. SMILEY
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Old 07-15-2007, 06:55 PM   #78
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[email protected] wrote:
Wildmage wrote:
[email protected] wrote:
Dead Knight wrote:
As Shadowknights, the last thing we need is more MIT. With decent gear, Siphon Armament and Despoil we already have the ability to spike our MIT higher than any other class. What we need is +Def. and +HP buffs other than our defensive stance like Guardians.

To be honest I'm not so sure about that. My SK was my main raiding char for 8 months, and since he was MT I concentrated on getting the best mit I could. His mit self buffed when I stopped playing him was 5219. After I switched to my Guardian and have been playing him a while, his self buffed maximum mit is 4886. With Command and Wall of Force at M1, I can spike it at 7018. With Despoil also at M1 and adding 336 for the enemies around me, I need to have at least 6 to get higher than my Guardian can, and he can't get near the Guards avoidance.

 The thing that always annoyed me about my SK most was something else you mention, and was highlighted in a post on the Pally forums where they all posted to compare mit/avoid/AAs/HP/Power. I was one of a handful of SKs posting their stats for comparison, and despite having one of the top mitigations, my HP was quite low. Even now it's already over 1000 lower than my Guardian self buffed, maybe that's something that could be addressed, the low HP pool really plays a part in how long you survive as MT when the figure is in the thousands.

Thats unlikely to change Crusaders are meant to have the lowest hp/highest power of fighters, brawlers highest hp/ lowest power, and warriors are the middle ground. 
problem is, its not true. Crusaders have the least power and hp. SMILEY
whats your STR or INT/WIS at if you can get both high you get bonus power  As Im typing this Im logging into EQ2 to check my STR/INT HP and power.
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Old 07-15-2007, 07:04 PM   #79
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Level 56 Shadowknight mostly wearing Mastercrafted Devout armor/ Mastercrafted Scythe HP: 4359   Power:2883(off stance) 2718 (def stance) Str: 256   Int:396(off stance)  267 (def stance) I don't have any other chars near that level of the fighter type to compare.
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Old 07-19-2007, 06:55 PM   #80
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Yup well, it happened.  We picked up another Necro and so I am being asked to sit on raids =(  Ah well, still won't keep me down.  There was some rumored fighter utility changes in the works anyway. How about some variation on this idea?  Bards now have a double attack modifier... could it be possible to have a double cast modifier?  I'm thinking kind of like dispatch on recast and what not.  That is pretty significant... enough so to not take a second dirge or second ?  Oh but then the problem of mages yanking agro with this.  Would it be possible for them to avoid?  Maybe a new strat could evolve to where we would call this "double cast dispatch"  and the mages would use their weaker spells which would increase over all dps and still leave manaburn and the such for the regular dispatch.  In certain cases maybe it would be a good idea to double damage manaburn or fusion no? If feasible, it wouldn't be too much of a stretch to extend it to other classes who are having utility problems... Double cast for SK's Double Heals for Pally's Double Combat arts for brawlers (though I really don't think they can complain... they do very good dps as it is) And nothing for warriors.  Zerkers in particular need to be nerfed =P Bah, just more thoughts Amondus 70 Shadow Knight Permafrost
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Old 07-20-2007, 08:22 PM   #81
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LOL!  Our wildest dreams have come true.  Pledge is now raid castable rather than just group.  See, raid utility!  ROCK ON! 

/sigh

Course, now that mitigation isn't as important as it used to be given diminishing returns....again I say...  /sigh.  Oh well, I guess every little bit helps.

From the test update notes (this already came up in another thread here on SK boards but it seemed appropriate to throw it into this thread.) 

SPELLS

  • Offering of Armament can be cast on a raid ally.
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Old 07-20-2007, 11:48 PM   #82
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Could this be the rumored fighter utility change? Not that they are actually giving us anything... but they are making fighters a more prominent role as since scouts and mages will be pulling more agro with the hate changes we have to do more? /crap on 37
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Old 07-21-2007, 01:13 PM   #83
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[email protected] wrote:
problem is, its not true. Crusaders have the least power and hp. SMILEY
Last I checked EQ2players the fighters with the highest HP and power were both SKs.
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Old 07-21-2007, 04:22 PM   #84
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Ya, it changes pretty regularly, but SKs often top the highest charts.
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Old 07-21-2007, 05:51 PM   #85
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Well, crusaders SHOULD have the highest power. In fact, we've got the potential for 25% more power than other fighter classes by nature of getting our power from two stats instead of one. As for health, well, Dogmae just has some sick gear.
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Old 07-21-2007, 08:27 PM   #86
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In regards to hp and pr it was stated in one GU that the developers wanted it this way Highest HP Lowest PR = Brawler Medium HP Medium PR = Warrior Lowest HP Highest PR = Crusader I will look for that update and post back. Found it Its under the Fighter Changes. Wow didnt know was all the way back to LU 13 heh.
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Old 07-21-2007, 10:28 PM   #87
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Controlor wrote:
In regards to hp and pr it was stated in one GU that the developers wanted it this way Highest HP Lowest PR = Brawler Medium HP Medium PR = Warrior Lowest HP Highest PR = Crusader I will look for that update and post back. Found it Its under the Fighter Changes. Wow didnt know was all the way back to LU 13 heh.
Yeah thats what I've been saying, kinda feels like that got lost at somepoint or equipment is allowing people to make that concept irrelevant. What Im honestly curious is to know is that whats the proportion to hp/power for fighters in general, far as my Sk can tell my hp seems to stay at twice my power. so would that mean the ratio for Warriors and Brawlers is.
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Old 07-22-2007, 03:41 AM   #88
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Wildmage wrote:
Controlor wrote:
In regards to hp and pr it was stated in one GU that the developers wanted it this way Highest HP Lowest PR = Brawler Medium HP Medium PR = Warrior Lowest HP Highest PR = Crusader I will look for that update and post back. Found it Its under the Fighter Changes. Wow didnt know was all the way back to LU 13 heh.
Yeah thats what I've been saying, kinda feels like that got lost at somepoint or equipment is allowing people to make that concept irrelevant. What Im honestly curious is to know is that whats the proportion to hp/power for fighters in general, far as my Sk can tell my hp seems to stay at twice my power. so would that mean the ratio for Warriors and Brawlers is.
Most of it has to do with equipment. Plate tanks i believe get more + stamina gear. From my under standing the reason that brawlers get higher hp / lowest pr is because the benefits of sta and str to them. They get hte most hp/sta and least pr / str for them. Warriors get medium hp/sta and pr/str. Crusaders get lowest hp/sta and since we split between str and either int or wis (depending on sk or pr) it allows for greater power (i think when totaled up warrios get bout 5 pr / str and we combined would get bout 6 pr split between str and int/wis). This is PURE RAW STATS. Once you factor in buffs and aa it changes entirely. I dont think that brawlers get a +hp% aa. Brawlers also dont get +hp buffs. Guardians have a group +hp buff. Paladins have a self +hp buff. Both crusaders and warriors get a +hp% aa line. This pushes the hp up for plate tanks. Again i am not familiar with leather but i dont think it gets the same amount of hp / sta as plate gets. So if you factor in gear the plate tanks push higher than the brawlers in the hp department. So you see the top hp tanks as being platwearers.
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Old 07-22-2007, 05:19 PM   #89
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Controlor wrote:
Wildmage wrote:
Controlor wrote:
In regards to hp and pr it was stated in one GU that the developers wanted it this way Highest HP Lowest PR = Brawler Medium HP Medium PR = Warrior Lowest HP Highest PR = Crusader I will look for that update and post back. Found it Its under the Fighter Changes. Wow didnt know was all the way back to LU 13 heh.
Yeah thats what I've been saying, kinda feels like that got lost at somepoint or equipment is allowing people to make that concept irrelevant. What Im honestly curious is to know is that whats the proportion to hp/power for fighters in general, far as my Sk can tell my hp seems to stay at twice my power. so would that mean the ratio for Warriors and Brawlers is.
Most of it has to do with equipment. Plate tanks i believe get more + stamina gear. From my under standing the reason that brawlers get higher hp / lowest pr is because the benefits of sta and str to them. They get hte most hp/sta and least pr / str for them. Warriors get medium hp/sta and pr/str. Crusaders get lowest hp/sta and since we split between str and either int or wis (depending on sk or pr) it allows for greater power (i think when totaled up warrios get bout 5 pr / str and we combined would get bout 6 pr split between str and int/wis). This is PURE RAW STATS. Once you factor in buffs and aa it changes entirely. I dont think that brawlers get a +hp% aa. Brawlers also dont get +hp buffs. Guardians have a group +hp buff. Paladins have a self +hp buff. Both crusaders and warriors get a +hp% aa line. This pushes the hp up for plate tanks. Again i am not familiar with leather but i dont think it gets the same amount of hp / sta as plate gets. So if you factor in gear the plate tanks push higher than the brawlers in the hp department. So you see the top hp tanks as being platwearers.
Yeah true which makes me think they need to do a major shake up so that those rules are true and that the equipment available shouldn't minimize the rules but enhance them.  If the Brawlers really did have the highest hp in any given situation and the highest avoidance their role as a tank class wouldn't be so gimped.  As far as Crusaders our dps would be benefitted if we really did end up with lots and lots of power to throw around
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Old 07-23-2007, 07:40 AM   #90
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I think that Shadowknights are currently the Jack-of-all-trades in ralation to tanking, we are masters of none.  We are the middle ground.

Mitigation ---------------- 1) Fighers 2) Crusaders 3) Brawlers

Avoidence ---------------- 1) Brawlers 2) Fighers 3) Crusaders

Hitpoints ---------------- 1) Brawlers 2) Fighers 3) Crusaders

DPS ---------------- This area can fluxuate so much that its hard to put people in specific places.  An SK that is geared for it can be #1, but that is #1 for Tanks, which still puts us behind any DPS class.

Cusaders need something to stand out from the other tanks.  We have, based on the above list, nothing to offer a raid or even a group over a fighter or brawler.  Sure we can do the job if needed, but there are others that are better.  If we put our Avoidance above a fighters but below a brawlers, then we would be an accepted tank.  I think the AA given to Paladins was a step in the right direction by making their shields 24% more effective.

1) Crusaders should be the masters of the shield.  I personally love the Bruisers defensive stance since it adds a flat chance to also deflect attacks.  Why not add a flat block chance to our defensive stance?  Maybe a Consentration buff that gives us protection or block effectiveness?

2) Second option would be to increase our ability to parry.  How about a parry buff?  One that increases our parry chance to somewhere close to 15% to 20%.  Brawlers have their deflect chance to over 30% and thats not counting their defensive stance which can be as high as a flat 16% chance to deflect attacks.  Oh, and the Bruiser defensive stance also gives +defense and +deflection

Opinions?

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