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Old 06-25-2007, 08:42 PM   #31
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CHIMPNOODLE. wrote:
No. The gist of it is that if the MT or OT is not already an SK, and there is little need for a third based on the targets....then SKs, as all the tank classes, are more likely to be dropped first.
I would call that a "yes".
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Old 06-26-2007, 12:55 AM   #32
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Not me. I found my spot, and the few SKs that I know who were serious about playing the class for raiding did as well. If you want an assured spot though, maybe not....it does take more work than some other classes, and possibly plain old good timing as well.

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Old 06-29-2007, 12:06 PM   #33
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Being 3rd tank in a raiding guild isn't an easy spot to land. Unless you're making your own guild or are in a guild thats just starting to raid and have already proven yourself, you're likely to be the first bumped. I've tanked everything in KOS and most of EOF raid content without issue. I can offtank without issue as well. But what I find a shadowknight really excels at is being the 3rd tank. Thats the tank who has to grab the stray adds and keep casters and healers alive. Thats the tank who has to pay the most attention. And when the main tank goes down, thats the tank who has to take over, since the offtank is already busy. We have great aggro for groups, with death march, rescue, and our normal taunts I normally peel those adds before they hit the casters or healers. This role, unfortunately, really screws up your dps. When my guild was still alive (i hate you vanguard) i was the third tank. My dps was gimped but i never, ever got a complaint or a word about why my dps was lower than a "dps sk" should be. Now, its hard for me to find a spot in a new guild, even being fully mastered and fabled with tons of raid experience. The problem is that the majority of strong guilds don't see a need for this utility, and 99% of them are full already. If we had a power regen buff of some kind, even if its just mana-sieve for the group on a higher scale (didn't we have that in eq1?) we'd be much more useful and people would think twice about losing the power regen we would bring to the table. Remember, with bards they can keep their mana songs running but once you're out of power the only way to get it back is to stop casting and wait for it to slowly build back up... If they could give us something like mana channel or manaflow as enchanters have, we'd be much more useful, even if its a [Removed for Content] version of it. just my .02
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Old 06-29-2007, 01:19 PM   #34
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health regen in the wis line along with quite abit of nice utility hehe( think its wis )
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Old 06-29-2007, 05:10 PM   #35
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In The alliance raids that we run iam am the pick up tank, off tank, and the o [Removed for Content] tank.  I constanly am intercepting dmg, warding, and in general keeping a lot of our raid up and running.  I call our dps and when AoEs are going to hit.  I can do all of this because of our high wisdom and reaver.  We can eat most AoEs and heal our selfs back up same with intercepts.  I have gone thru labs and taking more dmg than our gaurd and not pull agro.  I die a lot i have 3 full sets of armor.  To have one person take a whipe so a whole raid can progress is nothing.  You save enough raids this way and you get quite a fewbonestossedyourway when loot comes out.  We are not group utility we are raid utility/savers.
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Old 06-29-2007, 07:52 PM   #36
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The Wisdom Line has a Group Buff which gives all party members a 2% bonus to their spell dmg, heal dmg, ward dmg, and melee dmg. As well as making the SK immune to fear. Why not up that bonus to 5% and make the group immune to fear? Tell me that wouldn't make the SK more viable in the raid group, place em with the healers and boost their heals as well as prevent them from being feared.
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Old 07-05-2007, 02:07 PM   #37
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What do yall think of... A proc modifier.  Is this in game atm from any other class?  Most procs I've seen are on the 1.8 times per minute.  How about a group buff that increases that to 2 or 3 times per minute?  3 Might be too much, I think much testing would have to be done on it in any case. To balance the Pally maybe have a heal proc modifier? Then of course you have the other step children of raiding, the brawlers.  What about the same thing only for melee crit chance? Thoughts?
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Old 07-05-2007, 04:33 PM   #38
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Dirges have that already.  Luck of the dirge makes the 1.8 proc like 2.2
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Old 07-05-2007, 05:08 PM   #39
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BAH they do enough for raids, take it away and give it to us!
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Old 07-05-2007, 07:28 PM   #40
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[email protected] wrote:
Well, I am of the opinion that SK's should NOT be MTing end game raids.  They can sure, but a guard can better period.  One way of attacking this is to say make us more tank viable.  While this is sure to be a valid argument, I was thinking of making our dps T1 to make us more raid viable.  When I am raid MTing I never have issues, so I cannot really relate to the things you are mentioning.  However, now that I think about it... boosting 1 toons dps to T1 (the SK) compaired to boosting the entire raids dps by a second dispatch still doesn't cut the mustard does it... hmmm. I still like the idea of a mini manaburn. =)
Jumping in late on this discussion, and I'll be honest in the fact that I haven't read everything, but I feel the need to interject here. Please, go back under the rock that you came from. A tank is a tank, period. If you wanted a DPS class y ou should have rolled a DPS class. The SK is a hybrid tank. If you also don't want to tank high end raids, then why in the world would you enroll in a raiding guild with a SK? Utility?
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Old 07-05-2007, 07:36 PM   #41
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Luxun wrote:
CHIMPNOODLE. wrote:

SKs can tank, I do very decent with my SK, but the reason we arenot known to be a ealible tank is because of our interrupts. DEVs seriously need to look into the SK interrupt issue. If they make a solution for that, and make our taunts unresistable like zerkers, then SKs will be able to tank.

SKs tank very well. Interrupts don't cause any big issues.
are you kidding me ??? have you tried being the MT on a x4 raid ? You have got to be joking if yo usay interrupts don't bother us. It is becuse of interrupts that we can't dps fast enough and thus build aggro fast enoug hto keep up, it is exactly why zerker are the better dps/tank than SKs are.

This as well. How many x4 raids have you been to? Every mob that we fight doesn't interrupt. The interrupts aren't THAT bad if you sit down and develop a casting order. To be quite frank, I have more problems out of our healers not curing a stiffle as compared to getting interrupted. Maybe I'm the only person here that believes that we're fine as is. A boost in focus in the defensive stance would be nice, but seriously guys, how much more could we want? There have been numerous threads about this issue alone in here and in the combat discussion forum and it's the same stuff everytime. We've recieved a SERIOUS agro and DPS tool in DM, a temp MIT buff through dispoil, resist boosts to our taunts via EoF AA lines, up to 6 positions on rescue (and I honestly can't think of another fighter class that got this boost), our power pool is now based off of STR/INT instead of STR/WIS and ppl are STILL complaining? o.O Let's be honest here guys. What is the only thing that guards really have over all tanks? If you guessed ToS, you're right. Well, we're getting DA fixed finally, but that's not enough? A mini manaburn, that's a laugh.

If they give us much more, you know what will happen. *watches as Devs swing Nerfbat at the SK class*

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Old 07-05-2007, 07:40 PM   #42
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CHIMPNOODLE. wrote:

Not me. I found my spot, and the few SKs that I know who were serious about playing the class for raiding did as well. If you want an assured spot though, maybe not....it does take more work than some other classes, and possibly plain old good timing as well.

TY. 'Nough said.
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Old 07-05-2007, 09:52 PM   #43
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What I want to know Naldir is why the hell a guild would take a SK to tank over a guard...oh maybe the guard is on vacation or something; but wait that is why we have a back up guard.  Guards are the raid tanks of the game which I think 99% of the population would agree on.  So ok what does that leave for a SK?  The truth of the matter is that eq2 is messed up when it comes to balance in raids.  There are a select few classes that are "over-powered" when it comes to this and than there are other classes (any fighters besides MT/OT) that get the raw end of the deal.

 So how do you achieve balance...well you take from some and give to others.  Take some of the uniqueness away from some of those "needed" classes and give it to some of those classes in need.  Great example...BARDS.  Yes, it is not right when raids want 4 bards and make anything over 2-3 fighters sit.  How can this be fixed?  You take some of the things that make bards so [Removed for Content] great and you give it to some of the fighters.  I am not talking about making fighters awesome utility, just giving them something that when they are in a tank group and not assigned as the tank they could give the other fighter a real nice buff.  Crusaders used to have this in their mit buff...however because SOE changed diminishing returns the mit buff is useless and there is no way they would throw a crusader in the MT group to buff the tank.  There are really so many options here: hate dump (one that included taunt hate), an avoidance buff that stacks with the tanks avoidance buff, stoneskin type of buff, etc.

 Seriously I have no problem not being the raid MT...I think that is what guards are for.  I just want something that makes us a little more viable for raid spots that multiple of other classes are filling....*cough* bards *cough*. 

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Old 07-06-2007, 02:44 AM   #44
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Zomg, what a troll. Point of note, I can tank, and tank very well.  Just, you are pretty slow if you have a well geared well skilled Guard and you use an SK instead.  Thus, is my predicament.  I joined the raid guild in January after a break up.  Now we have more members and are once again min and maxing.  Thus going back to my previous point, I am the first to go. Please, this is meant to be a positive thread.  If I wanted to be told what to do ie crawling back under my rock, though it is a nice rock, I'd post on EQII Flames.
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Old 07-06-2007, 02:48 AM   #45
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Bruener wrote:

What I want to know Naldir is why the hell a guild would take a SK to tank over a guard...oh maybe the guard is on vacation or something; but wait that is why we have a back up guard.  Guards are the raid tanks of the game which I think 99% of the population would agree on.  So ok what does that leave for a SK?  The truth of the matter is that eq2 is messed up when it comes to balance in raids.  There are a select few classes that are "over-powered" when it comes to this and than there are other classes (any fighters besides MT/OT) that get the raw end of the deal.

 So how do you achieve balance...well you take from some and give to others.  Take some of the uniqueness away from some of those "needed" classes and give it to some of those classes in need.  Great example...BARDS.  Yes, it is not right when raids want 4 bards and make anything over 2-3 fighters sit.  How can this be fixed?  You take some of the things that make bards so [I cannot control my vocabulary] great and you give it to some of the fighters.  I am not talking about making fighters awesome utility, just giving them something that when they are in a tank group and not assigned as the tank they could give the other fighter a real nice buff.  Crusaders used to have this in their mit buff...however because SOE changed diminishing returns the mit buff is useless and there is no way they would throw a crusader in the MT group to buff the tank.  There are really so many options here: hate dump (one that included taunt hate), an avoidance buff that stacks with the tanks avoidance buff, stoneskin type of buff, etc.

 Seriously I have no problem not being the raid MT...I think that is what guards are for.  I just want something that makes us a little more viable for raid spots that multiple of other classes are filling....*cough* bards *cough*. 

I think by 'bard' you mean troubador, as the dirge's only guaranteed spot is the MT group (even meleers have aggro problems).  Only problem with taking some troub stuff and giving it to SKs - is who would play a troub? - Its already the least or 2nd least played class in the game, and thats despite having guaranteed raid desirability.  Its just way to passive (speaking as someone who spent the last 4 months raiding EoF as a Troub and ditched it for an unguilded SK). The only thing I see 'wrong' with SKs is our focus (like paladins) on too many stats compared to warriors.  Brawlers? Well they are just huddled over somewhere in the corner crying if they want to tank raids ....
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Old 07-06-2007, 02:59 AM   #46
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You have my apologies. I was having a bit of a bad day. Nice suggestions thus far after reading the rest of the thread, but come on . . .a mini mana burn? o.O
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Old 07-06-2007, 09:48 AM   #47
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How about a buff that shares our hunger line with undead pets of the group. A small boost for our pets, but better for necromancers. If we get the healing and the hate good for us too.
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Old 07-06-2007, 01:45 PM   #48
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What I want to know Naldir is why the hell a guild would take a SK to tank over a guard.

Because the difference is slim enough to be a non-issue imo. It comes down to the theoretical now more than anything....people say, well if you have the choice of an equally geared and skilled SK and guard...which would you choose?

The thing is, that just doesn't happen normally, and is a tough one to judge anyway...not all players are equally good players at their respective classes, and most guilds don't have the luxury of waiting it out until the best player they could possibly get comes along (acutely true if it's a MT that is missing). You should go with the best player available, especially with class differences being so small now. Over the years I've seen some poor Guardians in the MT slot, tanking for what were the "top" raid guilds on my server at various times. Even the most successful guilds don't always have the cream of the crop for every slot at any given moment (including MTs).

I am the Guild and Raid leader of the 5th largest guild worldwide. Besides our own raid schedule, I am part of, and host, bi-weekly raid alliance ones in my "free" time. Over the years, some peeps have come and gone. We have lost a MT/OT or 2 to the "biggest boys" in our servers raid game. We have also picked up a couple MT/OTs from the top dogs who left their guilds for various reasons. Some were great players, some were less than stellar (to say the least), some improved by playing with solid teams....others....didn't lol.

They tend to stick with the tried and true formulas generally though....and their successes are a combination of factors...strategy and experimention, dedication, practice...and teamwork. The SK class has changed drastically though, as well as some of the game mechanics (like Dim returns etc.). This is probably why we have seen more SKs making it into the rosters of some of the strongest raid guilds now. One of the top raid guilds worldwide was recruiting on the SK forums only a couple months ago. I do not believe it was for a MT slot, but it was a nice /nod to the class from some that are intricately familiar with the top end game.

Guards are not the best suited to all encounters. The SK class jumped so much in capability, most haven't seemed to become fully aware of it yet. As OT, I personally don't find any other class has an edge over SKs. Given limited raid slots and the choice of tanks for 90% of targets, I'd go with a Guard and an SK present. That's my preference of course.

It used to be more cut and dried...the differences in incoming dammage was much more substancial, and SK snap aggro and overall hate was widely seen as lacking. The mitigation, HP and avoid diffs couple with a Guards ability to stop Epic dammage cold for a short duration (aka ToS) also were large. SKs self healbacks were a fraction of today as well.

More recently, Miti Dim returns came in, SKs were given long duration Miti temp buffs (depoil and syphon Arm if taken), substancial Hate (hate and early decay) and substancial healback lines (crits and/or Reaver), arguably the best snap aggro currently available (aka DM), arguably the best Epic dammage stopper available (DA factoring in Mit). Coupled up with some deity abilities and adorns, SK viability is very real.

When you get past the MT and OT slots though, pretty much all tank classes are in the same boat...which I find is the main sticking point. Unless you're coming up against a target that is easier using more than 2 tanks...why bring another one. Most often, the answer is lack of other available classes.

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Old 07-07-2007, 10:24 AM   #49
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"When you get past the MT and OT slots though, pretty much all tank classes are in the same boat...which I find is the main sticking point. Unless you're coming up against a target that is easier using more than 2 tanks...why bring another one. Most often, the answer is lack of other available classes."

 I guess this is more where I am looking at when I posted here.  I would definitely say there have been some great changes to the SK class when it comes to tanking; however, when it comes to filling a raid after those 2 fighter spots are full all fighters lose out.  This is where SOE could definitely improve on tank utility.  Another fighter besides the tank in a tank group should really be able to help the tank out and I am sure there are countless ways this could be done.  I am not saying give fighters bard utility, I am saying give them something to help out other tanks when they are not the tank.  The mitigation buff that crusaders have used to do this, however diminishing returns killed this.

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Old 07-07-2007, 12:08 PM   #50
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Ya, I know what you mean.

Check out this supposed quote I copied from the monk boards....we shall see.....

""Our french community manager managed to get a reply from Lyndro ! Thanks for all the great feedback.  We are aware of some of the utility issues that fighters in general (and brawlers specifically), have in raids.  Right now we have some new abilities that we are testing internally, but we should have them forward facing on test server fairly soon.  We look forward to hearing your feedback, and thank you!

Lyndro""

(yes, it's not the first time we've heard something similar.....but still interesting hehe).

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Old 07-08-2007, 06:42 PM   #51
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Bha brawlers are on pull duty thats there job
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Old 07-10-2007, 10:36 AM   #52
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To Make SK's More Raid Viable It is sad but true that SOE has pretty much screwed SKs out of being viable. While we weren't nerfed we didn't get the enhancements to add to raids. I took a month and a half off only to have come back to my guild, a guild I was with for almost a year and a half, to be told I will not be raiding any and to look for another guild who wanted a SK. Sad. But I am now done playing EQ2 after being a SK since launch. Bye folks, I truly hope what you're discussing here comes to pass. If not they may as well do away with SKs completely.
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Old 07-10-2007, 10:47 AM   #53
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clamdiper wrote:
 If not they may as well do away with SKs completely.
No .. never .. i love my SK.  I would instead vote they should remove Raids completly .. and everything is fine SMILEY
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Old 07-10-2007, 11:34 AM   #54
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clamdiper wrote:

It is sad but true that SOE has pretty much screwed SKs out of being viable. It is not true.

I truly hope what you're discussing here comes to pass. Everything I discussed earlier has already come to pass, and apparently more goodies to come...I'm a happy camper SMILEY

I'm sorry to hear that the attitude of a guild would cause you to quit though SMILEY

Hope you change your mind and start raiding with a guild that appreciates what you can do.

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Old 07-10-2007, 11:37 AM   #55
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@Shalla If there were no raids, you wouldn't have half your armour ;P

I used to raid my SK, and when the decision was made within my raiding group to concentrate on the Guardians tanking, I switched to my "old" main (also a Guardian). I rolled a tank class to tank, not be sub-par DPS (even though I could do zonewide of around 900 and out-parse all other fighters except the crazy "scout in plate" zerkers.

The funny thing is, I switched from my high DPS/low defence SK to my Guardian, only to respec AAs and change gear to lower his defence and up his DPS. And yet he still takes less damage and now out DPSs my SK (zonewides of 1100 or so).

 I don't have any answers as to what can be done about this mind you, maybe a tweak to the mit boost from Despoil, or a reduction in recast. Or pumping up our damage shield. Guardian abilities to soak up damage spikes is hard to beat.

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Old 07-10-2007, 01:23 PM   #56
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ive had the fortune of being MT for a labs run.  Running the zone full offince and being MT buffed i pulled 1500-1800 dps depending on mob make up.  Non MT buffed and in mage group i pull 1100-1300.  BTW i love the AA changes.  Ive seen our gaurd pull 1700 in labs and 1100 in freethinkers.  If there were more raid zones where the mobs dps was costent instead of big bursts I think we would see more Sk as MTs.  But I do feel that gaurds should be MT's or they would be a truly useless class.  SKs do need better group buffs though.

      I find it funny that our group buffs help melee but we should be grouped with casters.

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Old 07-10-2007, 01:35 PM   #57
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I was with a guild on Guk that has cleared pretty most if not all of EoF top content and their main tank is a SK. It's not the first guild I've been with with an SK MT, either. You can be a great SK, guardian or pally tank, or you can be just a so-so one, it's as much to do with the player as it does the gear and spells. However, to make ourselves a touch more useful on raids, I wouldn't mind seeing one of our new level 71+ spells (or an AA ability) that does the same thing as our AE lifetap/heal does, but instead of doing, say, hitting each mob around you for X and healing yourself for Y amount per mob hit, having the heal spread among the group. This would be awesome in AE situations in particular, I think - a nice little group heal that would be incredibly useful but the timer could keep it from being overpowering.
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Old 07-10-2007, 01:57 PM   #58
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[email protected] wrote:
clamdiper wrote:
 If not they may as well do away with SKs completely.
No .. never .. i love my SK.  I would instead vote they should remove Raids completly .. and everything is fine SMILEY
I did too but after being given a Dear John and being told SKs aren't useful in raids either one of two things needs to happen. Guilds need to be shown SKs are viable, or SOE needs to make it so they can DPS as well as other classes. I do wish all of you luck because unlike my ex-guildies I too feel SKs are great. Good Luck
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Old 07-10-2007, 01:59 PM   #59
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CHIMPNOODLE. wrote:
clamdiper wrote:

It is sad but true that SOE has pretty much screwed SKs out of being viable. It is not true.

I truly hope what you're discussing here comes to pass. Everything I discussed earlier has already come to pass, and apparently more goodies to come...I'm a happy camper SMILEY

I'm sorry to hear that the attitude of a guild would cause you to quit though SMILEY

Hope you change your mind and start raiding with a guild that appreciates what you can do.

I wish I could say there was a chance for things to be like they were but they replaced me with a Zerk and told me there will be no spot. And I had 100% attendance up to my time off and coming back. Oh well.
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Old 07-10-2007, 02:02 PM   #60
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Meryddian wrote:
I was with a guild on Guk that has cleared pretty most if not all of EoF top content and their main tank is a SK. It's not the first guild I've been with with an SK MT, either. You can be a great SK, guardian or pally tank, or you can be just a so-so one, it's as much to do with the player as it does the gear and spells. However, to make ourselves a touch more useful on raids, I wouldn't mind seeing one of our new level 71+ spells (or an AA ability) that does the same thing as our AE lifetap/heal does, but instead of doing, say, hitting each mob around you for X and healing yourself for Y amount per mob hit, having the heal spread among the group. This would be awesome in AE situations in particular, I think - a nice little group heal that would be incredibly useful but the timer could keep it from being overpowering.
I too was from Guk, LCN doesn't agree with you and I am now out for good. Shame, I did have Ootog setup real well too. SMILEY
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