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Old 02-03-2006, 02:13 AM   #1
Arthais

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For those that know about the situation, tradeskills are due to change soon.  With the comming of Kingdom of Sky, the interim subproducts are going away, and recipes will be changed to produce final products directly from raw materials.  Having composed some thoughts on the matter, I've written an essay about it here.

Take a look if you're interested in the subject.  Agree?  Disagree?  Have your own thoughts on the subject?  As always any comments or feedback are always appreciated.  I am especially interested in the thoughts of you tradeskillers out there.  What do you think about it all?

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Old 02-03-2006, 02:28 AM   #2
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I have to agree with you, gathering 8 diffrent supplies and mapping out in the tree where you need to go and what you need to do in order to get the final product could be such a pain at times. Though for anyone that acually took the time and inventory space and bank organizeing to do it, all I have to say it was well worth it. That awsome legendary sword you just made suddently is that much cooler because you didn't just get it without any thought.
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Old 02-03-2006, 04:52 AM   #3
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Though it would be nice to take a lump of ore and turn it into a buckle instead of a bar of ore then a buckle would have been great...but just taking that lump of ore, some straps of leather and the washes, resins etc...and POP have a backpack...takes something very dear away from the current crafting.cheapens the whole systembut I fear that no matter what anyone says or feels about this..they will do as they wish..and cheapen the current crafting system..and also the crafted items.
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Old 02-03-2006, 06:46 AM   #4
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As a very devoted tradeskiller (tailor, jeweler, provisioner and alchy) I feel very strongly about this.  I agree entirely with the above posts. 
 
In the beginning I thought things were cool.  I was a tailor who was required to do business with others in order to get parts.  I suppose when they introduced the general tradeskill books for everyone it was a positive thing overall, but it was the first step towards dumbing things down. 
 
And now all the interrim recipes are tossed out the window.  I once had pride in making a backpack, a studded leather cap, or that legendary robe.  Made by Shamtastik meant I put it together.
 
Now it's going to feel like I tossed several roots, fuel, a pelt and who knows what else in a magical bag and out came a piece of armor.
 
Eq1 anyone?   We're getting closer to tradeskilling that was, what I call , *click and pray*
 
Discussion is good for things like this because it's never entirely positive or negative, but it's going to make a few people angry and a few people happy.   .  Crafting is my favorite part of the game (or was).  I can guarantee it won't be after this update.  Prices will drop on finished items, and skyrocket on components because everyone will be mass crafting and mass buying.  Anyway that's my 2 cents.  In the end  I want to be able to feel like I crafted the item - toss the magical bag.
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Old 02-03-2006, 07:13 AM   #5
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I agree with OP.  I've leveled 3 toons to 60, albeat separate accounts, and I created an Alchemist called Unguilded Alchemist for the very purposes you've stated.

Sucks that SOE made it easier to craft, but as they say in the whine business, make wine out of those sour grapes.  I'll be PLing some toons on PVP and selling my Unrest mains.

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Old 02-03-2006, 07:42 AM   #6
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It is great that this is made simpler. I found it very boring to click hours after hours and having to have a notebook to remember complex recipies. So well done SOE, your doing a good job
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Old 02-03-2006, 10:14 AM   #7
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Just because something is unique, that doesn't necessarily make it good.While I agree that the changes take away some of the flavor of crafting, as a Carpenter I am relieved. The multitude of subcomponents was nearly overwhelming to the point that tradeskilling literally put me to sleep. Every time I'd try to craft I'd get drowsy and desperately need a nap.I am pleased with the changes to be made.
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Old 02-03-2006, 02:05 PM   #8
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There has to be a compromise though.The new system is dumbed down. It's like making combat one hit to kill, with people having one button to press only to hit the mob.That said, just look at what it took to make arrows! Zoikes.Somewhere between 1-click megaweapons and 5,000-click arrows, there lives a happy middle ground.But SoE has no intention of finding that place. It wants a simpler game to appeal to the WoW brigade.
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Old 02-03-2006, 04:48 PM   #9
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Dare i say this?Yea i dare!!!!This is coming from someone who hates to Tradeskill because my love of the game is focused around adventure.Now the Recipes ( Since LU19 up to TS level 19 for only Sages and Alchys) have been made to where the average person can make things for himself / herself and still have time to adventure. Hooray SOE.......Nice Move there!!!All i have been hearing is......dumbed down......WoW references......back to EQ1 Tradeskilling........this is coming from the majority that love to go look in their banks and see Platinum. Now SOE makes changes where people can make things for themselves easier, and people get all bent out of shape and whine cause SOE has taken away their gold mines...and for some their Platinum Mines. Yes some of you ( you know who you are ) gouge the market with outrageous prices cause you know the tedious task it is to make Mental Core Breach.....Denmothers Trail Mix.....Imbued Weapons and Shields..........boxes.....bags....hex dolls.....etc etcSome cry....."oh the market is just gonna go crazy"!!! You know what you are probably right.....gonna go crazy with lower prices cause more people can make the things now they or someone else will need. I dont think Tradeskilling was put in the game to make toons super rich...........I think it was put there to help furnish and maintain spells...armor...weapons etc.I get tired of reading the whines and cries when i come here to learn about the new things coming to EQ2. If you folks dont like the changes.....dont renew your subscription....we pay to play also.....but i dont pay to come here and have to read whines and crying over SOE trying to appease the majority of EQ2.Find other ways to make money.......beleieve it or not......they exist!!!45 Woodworker40 Alchemist25 CarpenterOh btw.....there's nothing wrong with making a profit off your llloonnnggg hours spent in the tradeskill instance......but 200-1000% profit is ridiculous. And it isnt everyone doing this, just a select few......and this post was just for you!!!:smileymad:

Message Edited by Wartanker on 02-03-200605:52 AM

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Old 02-03-2006, 06:16 PM   #10
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I agree with the OP.Some simplification was needed, but this is too much.They seem to be trying to make a tradeskilling system for thoise who don't like tradeskilling.They still won't like tradeskilling. They just want to pay less.The new system has less to offer those who like tradeskilling, so it may well be that they leave the game or stop doing it.So it may well be that prices go up, and those who would prefer to adventure are forced to make more of their own items.It seems a risky strategy and makes SOE look desperate.Wartanker was writing nonsense though. It is not tedious to make imbued items. Tradeskilling was not meant just to supply adventurers with what they want cheap. It was also meant to be a fun activity in itself. I pay my subscription too, and I didn't pay to read you whines about so-called price gouging. You can't measure the profit without putting a value on the time spent making the item. Your made up figures indicate you put a low value on that time, other people are entitled to disagree and attempt to get what they consider a decent price, and since a buyer will not buy unless he thinks what he is getting is worth at least as much as the money, at that time, and there is force making people buy, andy price that is actually paid is a fair one, even if you would not pay that much for that item.
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Old 02-03-2006, 06:40 PM   #11
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Turb0T wrote:That said, just look at what it took to make arrows! Zoikes.
That certainly needed simplying, as did other rapidly consumed products such as provisions.In addition to simplfying the recipes for consumables, I think I would have preferred something like making T1 WORTs available for purchase in the general tradeskill societies, T2 WORTs in the professional societies, and perhaps T3 WORTs from the tradeskill faction. Then make T3 and higher common products use T2 WORTs, T3 and higher rare products use T3 WORTs, and get rid of all T4 and higher WORTs.That would allow people to avoid ever making a WORT and so cut down on a lot of the repetition.Cutting one or two of the steps in making an ink would also have been good. Perhaps the alchemists in the cities might have sold the lower tier common inks.
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Old 02-03-2006, 07:59 PM   #12
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Hi Arthais:

 

I read your article regarding the Tradeskilling changes and I have to say that I found it to be a well written and concise presentation of my own thoughts on this topic.  I, too, wish that Frizznik’s idea of batch refines had been implemented.  I believe, like you do, that this would have achieved the stated purpose of removing some of the tedium from the tradeskilling process, while still helping it to keep its distinctive sense of style.  The casual tradeskillers would have been appeased, but not at the expense of the dedicated tradeskillers who really enjoy the process and get the same enjoyment from completing a complex combine as do Adventurers who have targeted a particularly difficult adversary and triumphed against it.

 

The point that seems to be getting overlooked is that EQ2 was originally created with two distinct classes of players (Adventurers & Tradeskillers) in order to have the game appeal to a wider base of customers.  Some players prefer one style over the other and many enjoy dabbling with both.  Neither one is the right way or wrong way, but simply allows a wider variety of people to enjoy their play time in the manner that they prefer.  This ultimately allows the player base to continue to grow with the wider appeal to draw upon.  This is something I see as being slowly eroded over time and one that may encourage some to look for alternatives that will allow them to more fully explore the play style that they prefer.  SOE may have some really spiffy recipes or quests etc that they will be introducing to balance out this dumbing down of the Tradeskilling process to keep appealing to the dedicated Tradeskillers that still remain, but to date there is no incentive or carrot being dangled to make us stick around.  Once you lose the interest and attention of a portion of your customer base, it is usually difficult to rekindle that interest.  The better market strategy is generally to keep your customers happy so that they are not actively looking for alternatives.  Unfortunately, whatever plans SOE has up their sleeves may come to late to draw these customers back to the fold and may eventually turn Tradeskilling into a large Black Hole.

 

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Old 02-03-2006, 07:59 PM   #13
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Soe is now (and has always been) guilty of throwing the baby out with the bath water.  In more cases than I can count, Soe has fixed it's problems with knee-jerk-over-reactions instead of small tweaks that were needed.

In the case of tradeskilling, thier over reaction is going to mean leveling up will require two or three times the resources that it once did.  And of course there will be less bonus experience for completing a recipe for the first time, as there will simply be less recipes. 

So much could have been accomplished with small changes.  Things that we were already promised even, like batch combines.  Or how difficult would it have been to make combines take much less progress to complete so that they took much less time? 

I do have a recent example of Soe listening to its alarmed crafters though.  When it was announced that there would be no rare loams produced from the subcombine to make spells, alchemists became alarmed.  They asked how thier rare poisons would be effected since they require the soon-to-be-missing loam.   Soe's reaction was at first typical.  There would no longer be any rare poisons.  Out goes the baby with the bathwater!

But after several pages of well written thoughtful posts, that decision was reversed and rare poisons were returned.  Now final spell combines using rares will produce a magic dust (dorky name, but oh well) and this item will be used in the production of rare poisons. 

Small change.  Problem solved.  Crafters happy.  Poison users happy.   

I would like to see more decisions made with this example in mind.  =)

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Old 02-03-2006, 08:51 PM   #14
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I am really bummed.
I have an exciting Real Life and log onto Najena Server to craft....JUST CRAFT.  That is now over.
I have 7 crafters. 2 20+,  3 are 35+, 1 40+ and one 60th.  Now all are devalued and near useless.
Thanks 'WHOMEVER' for taking something that was a challenge and making it pointless and frivolous.
Flaming Bag of Bum Munkeys!

Message Edited by Blueslurper on 02-03-200607:52 AM

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Old 02-03-2006, 10:04 PM   #15
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Changes in tradeskilling... hmm... sounds good? Yes.Is it good actually, too? Uh, well... lots of opinions there.Personally I was banging my head against a wall when I first read about the upcomming changes. I do like tradeskilling. It gives me something to do in downtime and when I want to enjoy something. Working hard in different ways. Gathering the raw material, refining it and being on the toes to craft a pristine final product. Unbelievable, but for several people, that is fun. Something you can be proud of. At least a little bit. You started a career here. You are an Artisan.On the other hand, I also see the side of those who say, why do I need this wishy-washy clicking? I want an item, not a clicking-orgy. Well, I have to point at the very first beginning of EQ2 and what was the game meant to be. A game where you could start as Adventurer or Tradeskiller, following their very own paths of progression... or even both if you preferred that.Now they are going to basically dump the (huge) tradeskilling aspect of the game and replace it with a simple system. Which of course fits (some of) the Adventurers out there that are not really comfortable with doing tradeskills. Live and let live.I agree, tradeskilling could take a tuning, but not a clomplete change. And this has nothing to do with making cash and ripping other people off. Those are just a few people, who lost the relation of what the casual player can afford and is willing to pay. Yes, I know, every items is worth what the customer wants to pay for it. Greed is the devil, but that surely does not count for all the honourable tradeskillers out there that are doing it for FUN. A part of their love of the game is focused around tradeskilling and they also pay to play, indeed.This game is still something special. Please don't make it a 1-click-event. The system was (and atm stiil is) challenging, interesting, unique and enjoyable. It is different from other games that use a tradeskilling system. Do we need to make them all be the same? No, I don't think so.If you want to tune it, then please, basic subcomponents (resins, temper, washes, oils, etc..) are good to get rid off. But please, don't take the secondary subcomponents (f.e.: Planed Lumber, Metal Sheet, Metal Stud = Strong Box). It would be easy enough make the 2ndary components a 1-click combine. And leave the very final product combine as it is.That would be a compromise I could live with and I think several others too.
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Old 02-04-2006, 03:38 PM   #16
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I read the referenced post about the tradeskill changes and I am afraid since I came to EQ2 for the crafting!I used to play SWG until the NGE did ruin crafting there in October / November 2005. You can considder me as one of those crafting nerds with excel sheets and stuff who has fun producing top end products for reasonable prices for his customers. About 70% of my gameplay time is dedicated to crafting.Now I started the trial of EQ2 about 8 days ago, am a retail customer for 3 days now (currently mage lv15) and have to find out that crafting might be nerved here too.I agree that producing all the subcomponents might become a PITA ... but combining only raw materials in a final combine does not seem right. This would make it too easy ... there has to be a chalenge of some kind. Although it takes some time to get used to the current system - I found myself around by asking other players and reading some FAQs - so I do not considder it too complicated (although I am aware that there are more complicated recipies at higher crafting levels).Since I just joined the game I will not judge about what is right ot wrong for the game in its whole complexity ... I am simply not able to judge this propperly. I will give it a try - but from my personal point of view this simply sounds bad and these changes might make me leave soon.Cheers,Olesia
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Old 02-04-2006, 10:10 PM   #17
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Crafting used to be a challenge and imo therefore fun... As a sage I was dependant on alchies, woodworkers and tailors and getting those contacts was fun and bargaining about the prices, the dependancy was the best part of the crafting system.
 
I always thought the recipes were too easy though like only 9 combines for a sage to make an adept3.
 
Then they introduced the cross-class books and made crafting soooo easy, it made me think of WOW.
 
Why do they have to simplify everything ? more simple = less challenge = more boring.
 
And now this change rofl...
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Old 02-05-2006, 09:23 PM   #18
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FrankMullen wrote:... Why do they have to simplify everything ? more simple = less challenge = more boring.
 
And now this change rofl...

ROFL, yeah like the old system wasn't boring. Sorry, but the changes = better game.Now seriously, for those people out there who are really upset by this game, I think you all need to find the "niche" game where tradeskilling is very complex and not likely to be changed to make the game more mainstream.What I mean is that I've been thinking about MMORPGs lately, and I think we could start classifying them into 3 categories.
  1.  Your WOW Games, which could include WOW, COH/COV, I'm thinking Auto Assault. These games are easily played and somewhat geared for people trying their first MMORPG out, or by MMORPG veterans looking for an easy game to play at times.
  2. Your middle of the road games, which would include many of the mainstream MMORPGs like EQ2, DAoC, EQ1, and some of the smaller games out there. What I think is happeneing with some of these games is that there are trying to change some of thier game mechanics to get it a little closer to the entry level MMORPGs out there to attract customers away from them. Not neccesarily a bad thing in my mind. More customers = more money = more programmers, etc.
  3. Niche Games, like the upcoming Vanguard. These games are not going to cater to many of the entry level MMORPGers out there, especially the ones that only know games like WOW and COH. These games contain many complex and difficult game dynamics which make it challenging but also equates the "gaming experience" somewhat to "work." Not neccesarily a bad thing, and something that I like at times (I'll definetely be checking Vanguard out when it comes out).
Well, anyway that just a thought and opinion I've been developing recently after seeing the direction some games have taken, and looking at some of the games coming out soon. I don't think it will even be a stretch to have to expand my categorical list to 4 or 5 within a year or so.
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Old 02-06-2006, 01:51 AM   #19
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Decadre wrote:

FrankMullen wrote:... Why do they have to simplify everything ? more simple = less challenge = more boring.
 
And now this change rofl...

ROFL, yeah like the old system wasn't boring. Sorry, but the changes = better game.Now seriously, for those people out there who are really upset by this game, I think you all need to find the "niche" game where tradeskilling is very complex and not likely to be changed to make the game more mainstream.What I mean is that I've been thinking about MMORPGs lately, and I think we could start classifying them into 3 categories.
  1.  Your WOW Games, which could include WOW, COH/COV, I'm thinking Auto Assault. These games are easily played and somewhat geared for people trying their first MMORPG out, or by MMORPG veterans looking for an easy game to play at times.
  2. Your middle of the road games, which would include many of the mainstream MMORPGs like EQ2, DAoC, EQ1, and some of the smaller games out there. What I think is happeneing with some of these games is that there are trying to change some of thier game mechanics to get it a little closer to the entry level MMORPGs out there to attract customers away from them. Not neccesarily a bad thing in my mind. More customers = more money = more programmers, etc.
  3. Niche Games, like the upcoming Vanguard. These games are not going to cater to many of the entry level MMORPGers out there, especially the ones that only know games like WOW and COH. These games contain many complex and difficult game dynamics which make it challenging but also equates the "gaming experience" somewhat to "work." Not neccesarily a bad thing, and something that I like at times (I'll definetely be checking Vanguard out when it comes out).
Well, anyway that just a thought and opinion I've been developing recently after seeing the direction some games have taken, and looking at some of the games coming out soon. I don't think it will even be a stretch to have to expand my categorical list to 4 or 5 within a year or so.

ROLF, like the new system isn't boring? Sorry, but the changes remove variation, complexity and make things even more boring than before. Sages complained that they had only one product from 20-60 and only the thing that changed was names of the raws? Well, guess what? All crafting has been reduced to that. Gather or buy stacks of raws, then stand in one place and crank out product until your writ, task, or inventory is filled.

The old way wasn't much more exciting but it was certainly more varied. Even for sages. :smileywink:

Honestly, it doesn't need to be a "niche" game to have a complicated, or at least varied and interesting, tradeskilling system. EQ1 had a very complicated and quirky system, for example, and would hardly have been considered a niche game in its day. No, what I want is a tradeskill system where no matter what path I choose I can make useable goods. A crafting system where crafters don't compete with dropped goods for everything they make. Because the crafters lose everytime in that competition. Adventurers won't play if they feel they are "working for the crafters" and adventuring sells the game. Been there, done that, got the t-shirt. Disclaimer: that game may have changed from the way it was in first few months when I played, and had plenty of other problems even then. But that was a major issue.

Crafters need to be able to make some products that are useful, but not in competiton with drops. For all their woes, Provisioners are the closest to that. But not every product has to be useful to have a viable crafting class. It's ok if some of your line is third- or fifth-rate gear people only use until they get or can buy better drops. Alchemists, for example, make Adept III arts which are behind Master II choices and Master I drops plus App IV arts which are two rungs down behind Adept I drops. But they also make the best of potions and poisons. Few other crafters are even close. Only top-tier bags and boxes are worth buying and aren't consumable. Furniture is nice but a true "fluff" item. Totems would be great if they were as easy to use as food. They are nice, now, but a hard sell sometimes. Ammo is a joke. About everyone else makes a living on once-a-tier sales.

I'd love to see a system where all crafters have a viable, consumable product in all their tiers to in addition their once-a-tier sales. I'm not looking for a niche crafting game. I want a niche for all crafters in my adventuring game. Then, second, let's make it interesting.

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Old 02-06-2006, 01:29 PM   #20
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Just a note here.  The new tradeskill system is awesome.  Thanks!

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Old 02-06-2006, 03:27 PM   #21
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I liked the realism with tradeskilling... that you had to process the raws and make parts first before making the final product... that's how it is in RL.But yet I was sooo close to falling asleep everytime I made boxes - but I couldn't just let pc do it for me (as I hear provisioners often do) since I HAD to make pristine... (only secondary subcombines i left crude).  And I felt I spent more time at the forge than at the working station of my own profession.And I do agree the prices are usually outrageous... that's why I don't usually sell on market... I would then have too much orders ie no time to adventure. Having an order for 56 boxes just takes a bit too long time and causes you to fall asleep whats the enjoyment in that.....Hmm a thought.. could the middle way be that once the recipes go gray you could do this one click items? But if its still cons white/blue you are still learning and would need to do subcombines. Just a thought. Well have to see how it feels after the changes.
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Old 02-06-2006, 05:43 PM   #22
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I've no problem with SoE making it easier to craft, with that in mind though I would like to more diversity within a class.For example with the new system you will soon end up with a lot more lvl 60 crafters. Thats great to a certain point but where's the diversity, how boring is it that all crafters have exactly the same recipes, no matter what race, class and where they live.In my opinion a evil ogre lvl 60 carpenter should have at least 15/20 different recipes than a good wood elf lvl 60 carpenter.It's that kind of diversity that will make people feel unique, having 500+ lvl 60 carpenters running around the server all with the same recipes is quite frankly boring as hell.
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Old 02-06-2006, 09:51 PM   #23
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I agree with OP.I disagree with anyone who says "now everyone can craft!" and that be a good thing.It's supposed to be about interaction, not so that you can make your own things and go do your own thing.Whining about crafters making money?  We make money because we put in the time.  Just like any other activity in life.We put in the time, in this instance, because it sets us apart from the other players.  We want to be able to do something meaningful for other people, and make money doing it.  Interacting with every customer has been quite an experience for me, and franklly, this will rob me, and every other player, old and new, of that experience. In another post I was reading this morning, about the server merges, some dev team big whig said "Our priority is to the existing players, no matter what!" in reference to the fact that the change essentially makes servers more appealing to new players, because there will be more people running around. Well this is another change like that one.  And they'll say "Our priority is to the existing players!" and really its not.  They're ostensilby trying to create a game focused around getting ma and pa kettle to play, instead of their loyal existing customer base.  Shame. On. Them.They know one key thing about mmpog players.  We really, really, have trouble leaving a game once we've invested time, blood, sweat, and tears into our characters.  So why not screw the game up for the old players, lose a few of them, but keep most who'll struggle through it since they have 3 60 level chars, and get new members to boot!Come on.It'll be a sad day, when SOE actually realizes they're creating the vanilla mmpog, and not something spectacular, with these changes, or future changes, under the guise of appealing to a wider player base.
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Old 02-06-2006, 10:10 PM   #24
ShashLigai

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I've posted something similar in another thread, but I'll post again in hopes that a dev will see this and take it to heart.

What this game needs is more randomness and less scripting. By scripting I mean all chars and crafters ending up the same, same skills, same recipes, same armor, and mobs dropping the same loot. bleh.

By random I mean, more choices for char development, random spells and drops, random recipes, random quests for loot and recipes. Mobs dropping different loot. A game based on diversity among and within the classes. Markets that fluxuate based on supply and demand. Merchants that get rich because they are the only ones that have a recipe that people want, then as others get the recipe lose market share.

Questing and raiding are the means to an end, not the end. What I really want is a way to make my char unique. The games current mechanics don't really allow this.

 

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Old 02-07-2006, 03:53 AM   #25
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The EQ2 tradeskill system was pretty cool. Complex enough to require some intelligence and thought to master, but not so hard that once one understood it,  making various items was an insurmountable chore. If you were making dozens of identical items then it could indeed get boring -- as if hunting the same scarecrows and gnolls and orcs didn't as well.  Tedious to shoot-em-up kiddies maybe, but hacking and slashing 5000 goblins was even more so. Regardless, tradeskills were SUPPOSED to be on the same level as adventuring -- an alternative path to participate in the game world. 

Let's assume that BOTH those who like tradeskilling and those who like fighting would be somewhat bored by the other activity and want short-cuts.

If tradeskilling had had 1/10th the attention paid to it that adventure and combat mechanics had, it would have been awesome. The framework was certainly there, the resources throughout the gamescape were there, and there were thousands of crafters (BEFORE all the dumbing down) who reveled in figuring out the system and making it work. There were lots of good workable suggestions for improving crafting without dumbing it down.

The market broker was never an issue.  It always worked, since it was based on a well-tested model of supply and demand. Guild members and others who formed cooperative relationships with crafters got what they needed, often on a barter or an asymmetric exchange system. 

One of the biggest mistakes made by SOE was to not understand that making the quest rewards such that many people could now be demanding fabled gear and would turn up their noses at mere legendary, would inevitably cheapen the market. Crafting has been in decline for a long time.

Now, with the new changes, crafting is being kept around mainly so that SOE can advertise having it.  BUT, after the new changes are implemented, WoW will in fact have a richer and more complex crafting structure than EQ2.  I haven't played WoW, merely read the instructions for crafting and examined some friends' game screens. But I am intimately familiar with all the EQ2 tradeskills.

I'm actually to the point where I really don't care about EQ2 any more. I may retain a basic subscription in order to play with friends from time to time, but I'm not sure I even want to do that -- that's the old health club business model where they get you to join and then make using the product so unappealing that you never use it.

 

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Old 02-07-2006, 12:43 PM   #26
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Well I logged on tonight after a 3 month break and got to work upgrading my spells, what I needed to do when I stopped playing. So I started making all my inks etc and then ran to the scribe station only to find that a ton of final products can now be made without any subcombines. So I grabbed a ton of raws and jumped a few levels in quicktime.

At first I thought that this must be a bug but whatever, I was on test and needed to get back to adventuring asap. Then I came here and found out the truth.

So here we are. SOE is dumbing down the crafting interface to the point that it might as well be the "click and hope" combine of EQ1.

I thought that it was pretty cool to start with but then where's the pride in making those AP IV scrolls when it takes a single combine of a plant, tree and mineral? Yes there were too many combines to make a stack of scrolls and the inks having to be pristine and made out of three pristine subcombines was nuts. However, SOE dropped the ball with this one.

I always hoped that SOE would change crafting so that once a subcombine became tivial then you could produce stacks of those components with a simple click. Such as the washes, oils and resins. The likes of inks should have enabled the crafter to produce more than one at a time as the combine became easier, like 1 at even, 2 at blue, 3 at green and 4 at trivial. The final combines would always have to be played out the same regardless of level.

This at least would have made crafting challenging as you learnt new recipies and levelelled up but would have made it eaiser and quicker to make things that are becoming trivial. A bit of a win-win for everyone.

But no now I can make a Sword-of-Uberness by combining a lump of ore, a bear hide and a lump of coal in my shake and make bag.

BTW I thought that the crafting in SWG pre-NGE was one of the best crafting systems I ever played. Man I loved tinkering with the weapon stats. Although I actually do prefer the NGE combat system.

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Old 02-07-2006, 03:29 PM   #27
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All they needed to do was go ahead with stack combines of 20 then let us stack in bags 100 on all componants and WORTS, giving us much relief in the storage department.  Instead they are going with the one click/one prayer combine.  This is not good imo.  Are they going to raise the difficulty level also?  So when we have spent countless hours getting to 60 on our crafter(s) and countless plat on books, etc, now we will hit the combine button and hold our breath until it makes or breaks?

I am not happy about these changes either.  I worked hard to get a Carpenter and Sage to lvl 60.  I spent countless plat on needed books and special scrolls and now I wonder why.   Oh, and since I mentioned Carpenter...thanks SOE for entirely missing the T6 rare furniture.  Much unappreciated.   How darned hard would it have been to FINISH the work on DoF and get us those receipes using rares?   Then there is that stupid stool that should have been something crafted when we were lvl 6.  What a joke on the carpenters that was.

I agree.  They have thrown out the baby with the bath water and isn't this so typical.  I came to EQ2 with great expectation since I had played EQ for years and have my main GM in all but a couple of the crafts.  Lets see, took me all of one day to GM jewelry and I wasn't even playing a chanter.  lol.

 

 

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Old 02-09-2006, 12:15 AM   #28
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I like the idea Tarya has in a prior post in this thread. Have the one click combines after a recipe has gone grey or green to you. That way you have proven your knowledge of the recipe and it would be like another little reward for leveling.
 
Having a level 60 carpenter I worked long and hard to get there and sometimes  I just don't want to bother with lower level items due to the number of subcombines we have to do to get a finished product.
 
I don't know anything about coding or programming so not sure if something like that would even be possible but there should be some middle ground here.
 
*crosses her fingers for a compromise*
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Old 02-09-2006, 02:07 AM   #29
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I have to say I agree that the loss of the tradeskill process as it is now is a bad thing.  Sure it can be frustrating when you have all you bags filled with Eolith Tempers and the like but I think the satisfaction you get from the finished products is worth it.  It is maybe a bit of an elitist aspect of the game for a newbie and it can seem a bit daunting but surely that is half the fun of it.  Having to take the time to learn the trade gives you a better understanding of it and for the most part it is quite logical what you require for the items you create.On top of this, the demand for well crafted items is sure to suffer for the online trading markets.  I personally enjoy creating equipment and then selling it to other players.  Not only do I make a bit of coin but I also like the thought of other characters in the game walking around Norrath with my creations.  If the creation of these items becomes a simple, point and click then most players are likely to just make there own equipment thus killing this element of the game.Only time will tell if this change will damage the overall enjoyment of the game, I think it will make the tradeskill aspects of the game more available to a larger section of the gaming population which is likely why SOE are doing it but in doing this they are sacrificing the more hardcore following who have worked hard to learn their craft and whose work will now be cheapened.Sandking Ironjaw31 Conjurer on Runnyeye
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Old 02-09-2006, 03:44 AM   #30
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I just thought i would put a thought to this Quote from another player on the tradeskilling.  I think that the systems should not be touched.  I came from  the CLICK AND PRAY system that EQ1 had it was just as boring as this is in EQ2 but at least I have something to do while i am spending my hours of tradeskilling by having the buffs to clik and keep and eye on. 
 
as far as the quote that i paisted below what you suggest we might as well emliminate tradeskilling all together.  as it is not it seems that each trade seems to need to either do all the trade skills with 6 different toons or rely on other players to get what they want and that is what makes the game good.  in EQ1 only one or two of the trades there seem to have any impact on the game.  I was a grandmaster jeweler in EQ1 and well that trade even got more and more useless thus my quitting and coming here.  I hope they do not change it let it stay the way it is.
 
 
 
 
Just because something is unique, that doesn't necessarily make it good.While I agree that the changes take away some of the flavor of crafting, as a Carpenter I am relieved. The multitude of subcomponents was nearly overwhelming to the point that tradeskilling literally put me to sleep. Every time I'd try to craft I'd get drowsy and desperately need a nap.I am pleased with the changes to be made.
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