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Old 07-09-2010, 03:36 AM   #61
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No, I'm playing.  Just saying, I understand that from the point of view of the raid overall, there's just rarely a point in having a mystic, for the reasons I outlined above.  Not qq-ing, or saying we suck by any means.  Just that over the years, the whittling away at what we brough that others didn't, and the augmenting of others, has widened the gap to the point that, well, I'd just repeat myself.  I don't want to see this trent continue. 

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Old 07-09-2010, 01:36 PM   #62
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If you're saying that a raid should bring 4 inquisitors and 1 defiler because there is 'rarely a point in having a mystic', then u could just as easily argue that u wouldn't bring a defiler either. I mean, if ur raid is that leet and that focused on DPS u would probably go 4 inqs and a mystic. I am failing to see the gap. Most raids are going to need wards. Mystics ward, so there is one point right there. You need healers and just cuz they aren't max DPS or have a billion cures doesn't mean you shouldn't bring them.

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Old 07-17-2010, 03:57 PM   #63
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Stampede with it's huge recast is only worthwhile if ur timing it well with rhymic overture / victorious concerto - even then you could argue a defilers 5% crit bonus that's always up could outshine it zonewide.

Str buff does nothing for the big dpsers in your group.

The 15%DA proc is already unnecessary for anyone with good autoattack who has far too much DA, and mages tend to lose dps on the time jousting into melee range.

The amount of spell friendly blue stats like spell reuse etc but no ability reuse, no dps mod, no haste, no attack speed on SF priest gear means any defilers who drop the mindset that they can't dps will findout they can do just as good, 1 of our defilers had a 15k zonewide in 10th spot, in underfoot last night.

Healingwise, when our mythicals did a big boost to all of our wards, we still healed less than defilers, now our mythicals do almost nothing for healing, we have a far lower heal potential than defilers. It's also much easier to refill the bars on defiler than mystic.

Defilers have no power issues, a groupwide control break, their group armour ward is massively more powerful and massively more useful, buff more hp, buff more dps, debuff better, ward on cure better for 20 less aa's, and can do equal or more dps.

Mystics are left with 2 unique things, bolster can't be done by defilers, and we have 2-3 debuffs that are worthwhile that stack with defiler ones, but the names could well be debuffed to cap even without those.

Xelgad appears to think that making our mythical worthless was the right move, and said so recently in interview, so there's little cause for optimism.

In a situation where 4 of the 5 shaman available to our force are already defiler, I sort of feel obligated to remain mystic, and it would be a pita to get all the defiler masters now - I wish they had just smashed our mythical at the start of the expac, before I spent all that plat getting a fullset of mystic masters.

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Old 07-17-2010, 04:37 PM   #64
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Most of the Defiler's and Mystic's wards and direct heals have exactly the same HPS if you bother to do the calculations.  If you look at a Shaman's parse, these shared spells make up 70-80% of their heals typically.  10-20% come from proc wards and heals, and then 10-20% from special sub-class heals.  The only semi-important and unique "heal" abilities that make the Shaman sub-classes different are: 

*Defiler* 

Maelstrom (Group HoT) 

Banewarding (Proc Ward)

Soulward (Single Target Ward) 

Deathward (Single Target Ward) 

Nightmares (Myth Clicky - HoT) 

*Mystic* 

Oberon (Single Target Ward) 

Torpor (Single Target Ward and HoT) 

Ancestral Sentry (Semi-Single Target Damage Intercept) 

Prophetic Ward (Nox Group Ward)

Spirit Tap (Myth Clicky - Burst Group Heal) 

Due to the long reuse timers on most of these spells, they are not in typical heal rotations, and are situational or used when spike damage occurs or is about to occur.  Now that the stun on Oberon is gone, and both Torpor and Oberon are amped by new AAs and red adorns, the classes have been more balanced now than ever.  

The article your referred to stated that the nerf was done to our Mythicals to further balance us.  So obviously the devs thought we were too OP with the potency cap lifted and the new AA and red adorn changes to Oberon and Torpor they added.  However, I disagree with the devs on that point, and think they forgot that if we have Wrath's Blessing on us the nerf would make our Myth Heal Mod buff useless.  They should have just said oops, and made an exception for Mystics.

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Old 07-17-2010, 08:06 PM   #65
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Every mystic who betrays defiler says the same stuff, they pickup a ton of healing ability, maybe it's partly the useful effects on the defiler mythical, like having several thousand healing attached to every single and every group ward, maybe it's the useful myth potency proc, maybe it's the wards built into harbinger, maybe it's how their group armour ward doesn't just dent the occasional frontal but gets regularly used by aoes, maybe it's the better stats on the defiler heal stance, maybe it's how often their myth clicky can be used, maybe it's curse of warding or whatever. Balance is a lot of things in operation, not just the tooltips.

Here's a simpler way of putting it, everyone would agree for a long time that same geared skilled mystics in general heal less than defilers, turning the mystic mythical effect that was a cornerstone of their healing balance into garbage didn't magically make the mystics heal more, it made them heal less than before.... but some of the mystics didn't see the downgrade because of the potency cap coming off at the same time - if everyone moves ahead 35% and you move ahead 5% you might not notice the missing 30% right away.

Btw after the myth nerf, 2 of the abilities you mention, oberon and torpor both lost for me 1-2 thousand - per tick.

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Old 07-17-2010, 08:30 PM   #66
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I had a feeling you would say that Snowline.  Well, let me take one thing back.  I did some number crunching, and I don't think they should have given back our potency boost exactly as it was... At high leves of WIS we would be getting something like 15-20%+ potency which would have made the Defilers all quit the game.  So maybe we should start suggesting that the Devs just tune our myth buff down a bit to like 10-15% of your WIS gets converted to potency, instead of 30%, or something reasonable like that.

The HP Buff Argument: First of all, a properly specced Mystic buffs 617 HP to the group using only their group HP buff, and according to the spell description on EQ2PLayers, Defilers buff 987 with their group HP buff, not a big difference there, but there is a small one.  Mystics then buff 150 stamina on top of that to the group, and another 114 stamina to a single target with Ancestral Avatar.  I'm at 1232 STA self buffed, so not sure if I have diminishing returns on STA, but I get a total of 1007 HP when I cast those two Mystic HP buffs on me, seems almost identical to a Defiler's HP buff potential.  The nox mit group HP buffs are identical.  The single target HP buffs a little different, but I haven't even mentioned the 330 HP we give to the group, and the 586 HP we give to a single target, everytime we cast heals on them.  If you spam heals and wards then you are actually buffing more HP than a Defiler can.  Then add in Bolster which buffs massive amounts (A few thousand) of HP beyond that as well.  But for the sake of argument, there doesn't seem to be a huge HP buff gap as some of you want to believe.  This was all settled long ago and it seems everyone agrees this is a non-issue: Link to debate.

The Power Argument: Yes, Defiler's have better innate power proc potential, but I don't ever have power issues on any fight in SF.  Not sure what some of you are doing wrong.  The chanters/troubs in my raid always keep us very high on power, and if for some odd reason I get low on mana, I just use the tinkered Miscalibrated or Overclocked Manastones, relics, potions, shards, hearts.  Plus Spirit Tap helps even with the huge reuse nerf we got.

Bane Warding is so Great! Argument: Defiler's Bane Warding is powerful, and I would love to have that as well, but I wouldn't trade Oberon, Prophetic Ward, Spirit Tap, or Bolster for it.  Oberon can regen to 100% after taking a huge hit, and then take another while you are casting separate wards and heals, Defilers can't do that with any of their spells right?  Prophetic Ward is unique to Mystics as well, and has a huge heal potential in nox AoE fights.  The problem is in perception.  

These are all unique class specific spells, but each of them have comparable HPS value when used.  You can see this by looking at the overall parse of a fight.  All the special class specific spells of a Shaman make up a small portion of the total heals landed, the rest of the heals are not unique either Mystics or Defilers, and both the same HPS potential.

Don't take my word for it.  Just look at the heal parses posted in EQ2Flames by high parsing hardcore raiders:

Defiler Parses

Mystic Parses

Mystic Immunities tree has a lot of proc wards too, and can parse 5% or higher.  Look at the ss I took the other night and posted above.  This 5% cure ward parse would have been much higher if I didn't have a good Inquisitor in my group.

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Old 07-17-2010, 10:27 PM   #67
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The thing about heal parses is you can only heal the damage that is actually there - which depends on peoples jousting, positions, mob debuffs, resists & crit mit etc etc. Just because 2 healers can handle the healing, doesn't prove which one has a higher healing potential - it never proves who could have healed more. Every flames forum will have a high parse from a special situation for all classes, I have plenty of 'favourite' parse moments of my own. Thing is though, the higher your ceiling, the easier the healing is, the more time you have for debuffs, crosshealing, cross cures, and of course dps.

I trust more in what people say their own experience of betraying is, or evidence I see in our raid. Right before the myth nerf, we had a new applicant defiler and an alt defiler in our raid. Both were hugely less geared, adorned and mastered than my mystic. Neither could handle MT duties, after the patch both could right away. Before the patch when I turned on my myth buff, loads of my wards improved by a lot. After patch a bunch of spells dropped a lot of healing e.g. runic armour, torpor, oberon, single target ward, group ward etc - most are now completely unaffected by mythical buff (all with fury buff) - in fact if you've got the purifying persistance proc you could be better off turning off the mystic mythical entirely.

The 'mystic mythical could have got out of hand' argument I just don't believe - I actually wonder if the dev responsible read the inaccurate mythical description and decided the smash it without actually looking at the real maths properly. The mythical seemed to add "at maximum 30% to a ward, if you had enough wisdom", it was never adding "30% of our wisdom" otherwise our runic armour would have been well over 1k not 544 for example prenerf. The prenerf mystic mythical was capped already, already part of the healer balance landscape as it had been for many years and doing a lot less than 30% and always would on most wards, but that effect was needed to keep us inline with defilers and other healers in general (let's not get started on halved crit bonus).

Now our mythical does very close to nothing. Bad, unnecessary, change.

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Old 07-17-2010, 10:41 PM   #68
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Agree 100% that they still need to fix it since the Mythical is such as central part of the game for all players, and the Mystic mythical got half of its power ripped out of it.  Unfortunately, it seems like not too many Mystics are upset about it anymore though.  I wish they were.

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Old 07-19-2010, 04:57 AM   #69
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I just want to say i love playing mystic, and I never think about other classes. Either my class is playable, or it isn't. And if you stop looking at other classes, I think you'll find there is nothing stopping you from being a great healer with awesome utility and dps potential.
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Old 07-19-2010, 10:20 AM   #70
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[email protected] Bayle wrote:

the rest of the heals are not unique either Mystics or Defilers, and both the same HPS potential.

This idea is part of the problem.  A lot of the heals that are the "same" for mystics and defilers actually aren't.  The defiler 8% beneficial potency proc from their myth, added heals to their wards again from myth, and AA for group ward increase help give them a good advantage over mystics.  Not to mention that the defilers also have an incoming magical damage reduction attatched to their myth iirc.

As for the parses, as was said earlier, heal parses don't really prove that much when taken from such a wide array of fights, groups, and healers (I know that my heal parse you posted wasn't even in a raid).

With all that said, mystics have something that keeps them competative (actually more desireable in many situations): melee DPS buffs (stampede seems to end up doing 2-5% of my meleers' dps, while the 5% CB will do roughly 2-3%), also ancestry goes quite nicely on anyone with some procs (if you're not being a little buff hog ), bolster is cool for adding a bit more dps (when its not needed for survivability).

Not to mention, there are very few situations I would benefit from any extra healing ability even when MT healing most (easier) stuff, so the extra DPS I can put out while still healing definitely offsets any shortcomings I have for survivability, imo.

PS: I am really sad that our myth sucks so bad now...I would definitely, 100%, without a doubt, trade my mystic's myth for a defiler's myth

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Old 07-19-2010, 02:26 PM   #71
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Hene wrote:

[email protected] Bayle wrote:

the rest of the heals are not unique either Mystics or Defilers, and both the same HPS potential.

This idea is part of the problem.  A lot of the heals that are the "same" for mystics and defilers actually aren't.  The defiler 8% beneficial potency proc from their myth, added heals to their wards again from myth, and AA for group ward increase help give them a good advantage over mystics.  Not to mention that the defilers also have an incoming magical damage reduction attatched to their myth iirc.

As for the parses, as was said earlier, heal parses don't really prove that much when taken from such a wide array of fights, groups, and healers (I know that my heal parse you posted wasn't even in a raid).

I remember during beta testing when they added the Vile Runes (Defiler Group Ward Enhancement,) and Torpor/Oberon AA options, in the Defiler and Mystic AA trees respectively, there was some debate over balancing the two classes in the beta forums.  When they removed the stun to all the stun heal spells that every heal class had, Oberon was said to become way to OP according to several Defiler testers in the Beta testing forums, especially with the AA enhancements they gave us.  Iirc Oberon had a potency increase option in the new SF abilities on top of the one we already had.  This was obviously given to Mystics to match the Defiler''s potency increase option that they were given in new SF abilities.  However, after the debate burned for a week or so they toned the Mystic Oberon SF AA down down to just a refresh rate option to appease the other side.  Personally I like the refresh rate option better, since the size of Oberon is big enough to take most hits as is.  But at any rate, it seemed like Vile Runes AA option you referred to was added to the Defiler SF AA abilities to balance out the Mystic's Torpor and Oberon AA amp options initially, or vise-versa, but who knows what type of logic or HPS math SoE uses, if any.  I think the Mystics slightly came out ahead on that one though.

The Defiler potency buff on their Myth is a proc first of all, so it's hit and miss, and it's 5%, not 8, link.  They also get 5% more potency on their Healing Stance than Mystics get, so there is 10% potency which is significant.  But we get to swap more gear out to get some of that potency advantage back, since we have more cast speed on our stance to help get to cap easier.  Personally, I am usually at 102% cast speed with the heal stance turned on, and the 15% cast speed buff I get with our stance allows me to swap more cast items out for potency gear.  I know some mystics don't care about that as much and can easily get up to 130% cast speed, but it's smarter to figure it all out to maximize your gear and get some more potency, don't you think?  So really we are really talking maybe a 5% potency difference?

Anyways, the reason I posted those parses and broke it all down was to illustrate that we are all splitting hairs over 5-10% of a difference in heals overall, if that.  There isn't that big of a difference between the two sub-classes heal wise.

Like Mark Twain said,

"It' ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble.  It's what you know for sure that just ain't so."

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Old 07-19-2010, 03:13 PM   #72
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[email protected] Bayle wrote:

The Defiler potency buff on their Myth is a proc first of all, so it's hit and miss, and it's 5%, not 8, link.  They also get 5% more potency on their Healing Stance than Mystics get, so there is 10% potency which is significant.  But we get to swap more gear out to get some of that potency advantage back, since we have more cast speed on our stance to help get to cap easier.  Personally, I am usually at 102% cast speed with the heal stance turned on, and the 15% cast speed buff I get with our stance allows me to swap more cast items out for potency gear.  I know some mystics don't care about that as much and can easily get up to 130% cast speed, but it's smarter to figure it all out to maximize your gear and get some more potency, don't you think?  So really we are really talking maybe a 5% potency difference?

Anyways, the reason I posted those parses and broke it all down was to illustrate that we are all splitting hairs over 5-10% of a difference in heals overall, if that.  There isn't that big of a difference between the two sub-classes heal wise.

Like Mark Twain said,

"It' ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble.  It's what you know for sure that just ain't so."

Ok, well eq2i and zam both say it is 8% (and you should know how screwy the eq2 players item DB is, look at some of your items, 115 potency for christ's sake), but w/e its 3% diff; and vile runes adds the 10% potency to the defiler group ward, which is one of the spells that defilers have in common with mystics, making their "shared spells" not that similar afterall.  And add all this up, 5 or 8% (from myth) + 5% from stance + 10% from AA (on top of that, the extra absolute gain in casting time for the group ward as well as the 2-3k [I believe] heal on group ward cast) = 20-23% + some = definitely non-negligible differences in at least one of (arguably the most important of) the shared spells.  As for casting speed, I don't even really pay attention to casting speed on my gear as I get > 100% between "secondary" stats on my armor, jewelry, and all the group buffs I've got, so gear swapping isn't even required (for me at least) to get 100% casting speed.

Also, if you look at some discussions on "the other forums," we talked briefly about the disparity between heals-per-second from mystic and defiler ST and group wards.  Most mystics get around 1.5k HPS from their ST ward and about the same from their group ward, while loads of defilers have 1.5-2.5k from both their wards (definitely could be related to fury myth buff, but in general, it seems that even without it the defilers come out on top).

Again, to attest to the real difference, ask someone who used to be a mystic and has betrayed recently.

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Old 07-19-2010, 06:19 PM   #73
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Hene,

Well, I guess I'm just more of a quantitative minded person who wants to see the numbers, and not as interested in the gut feelings of players who already took the dive off the betrayal cliff, but w/e.  Unfortunately, we are now getting into fuzzy math when you want to figure out the actual worth of a random proc potency effect from a Defiler's myth that is really just a drop in the potency bucket once you get passed 100%, and percentages of percentages with one spell like a group ward.  

Overall these two aspects are not "game changers."  What I mean is, if you increase the group ward that parses lets say 20% of heals by 10% via an AA spec, you get 2% more heals overall right?  If all your heals get a temporary 8% boost for 10 seconds, but then go back to normal levels for 20 seconds, your only getting the 8% a third of the time.  Which would average out to 3% boost on average per minute if we round up, 2% if we round down.  Overall averages of heals would increase, but not by as much as you are suggesting.

It seems to me that Defilers have unique group heal potential with Maelstrom and Bane Warding (Curse of Shielding), and unique single target healing with Deathward and Soulward, and Mystic's have unique single target heal potential with Oberon, Torpor, Sentry, and some unique group heal potential with Prophetic Ward and Spirit Tap.  I'm just not seeing any of these spells as large parts of any parses Defilers have posted publicly, so its difficult for me to be convinced as much as you are.  

I considered betraying once before I thought about how every time I had to fill in for a Defiler in the MT group, it was no problem at all, so as far as gut feelings goes, it seems like I had the opposite experience other players had that betrayed.  Once I did the math, it only reinforced that decision.

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Old 07-20-2010, 11:24 AM   #74
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[email protected] Bayle wrote:

Hene,

Well, I guess I'm just more of a quantitative minded person who wants to see the numbers, and not as interested in the gut feelings of players who already took the dive off the betrayal cliff, but w/e.  Unfortunately, we are now getting into fuzzy math when you want to figure out the actual worth of a random proc potency effect from a Defiler's myth that is really just a drop in the potency bucket once you get passed 100%, and percentages of percentages with one spell like a group ward.  

My mystic's myth proc (tribal rage or w/e) is up almost all the time, I'd assume the defiler's is as well.  Even if it is not ever up, 15% potency on the most powerful spell in a healer's arsenal is quite an advantage, and I only brought up this effect beacuse you said

[email protected] Bayle wrote:

All the special class specific spells of a Shaman make up a small portion of the total heals landed, the rest of the heals are not unique either Mystics or Defilers, and both the same HPS potential.

I wanted to show that the non-unique spells did not have the same heal potetntial.  And to somewhat burst my own bubble, HPS is not the only thing that you have to look at to compare healers; defilers also get that nifty 5% redcution in incoming magic damage (from their myth) which adds a very nice boost to survivability.

Another 'number' would be the 3ish-k heal attatched to each ST and group ward cast by the defiler.  Also, like I said, look at the average heals per second of mystic group and ST wards versus defiler ST and group wards, those should be all the numbers you need to see that the spells that shaman share do not perform the same for both (hinting that the 15%+ and heal-on-ward and other things may help defilers a good bit).

[email protected] Bayle wrote:

Overall these two aspects are not "game changers."  What I mean is, if you increase the group ward that parses lets say 20% of heals by 10% via an AA spec, you get 2% more heals overall right?  If all your heals get a temporary 8% boost for 10 seconds, but then go back to normal levels for 20 seconds, your only getting the 8% a third of the time.  Which would average out to 3% boost on average per minute if we round up, 2% if we round down.  Overall averages of heals would increase, but not by as much as you are suggesting.

Again, just look at the parses.  Defilers are consitently sitting at 2-2.5k HPS from both ST and group wards.  Mystics are consistently sitting at 1-1.5k HPS from both ST and group wards.  The fury buff may help, but I don't think that practically doubles the HPS...(the maximum possible benefit on ST wards from the fury buff if you have 150% potency, 120% crit bonus, and 1000 abil mod is from 7k to 9k pre-crit which gives 29% net gain, tho the group ward's benefit may be greater, the actual gap in ST wards is so much greater than this)

[email protected] Bayle wrote:

I considered betraying once before I thought about how every time I had to fill in for a Defiler in the MT group, it was no problem at all, so as far as gut feelings goes, it seems like I had the opposite experience other players had that betrayed.  Once I did the math, it only reinforced that decision.

Plenty of mystics MT heal most content just fine SMILEY

But defilers have a definite advantage in terms of survivability (and I'm not sure what math you're talking about).

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Old 07-20-2010, 04:47 PM   #75
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Hene wrote:

I wanted to show that the non-unique spells did not have the same heal potetntial.  And to somewhat burst my own bubble, HPS is not the only thing that you have to look at to compare healers; defilers also get that nifty 5% redcution in incoming magic damage (from their myth) which adds a very nice boost to survivability.

Another 'number' would be the 3ish-k heal attatched to each ST and group ward cast by the defiler.  Also, like I said, look at the average heals per second of mystic group and ST wards versus defiler ST and group wards, those should be all the numbers you need to see that the spells that shaman share do not perform the same for both (hinting that the 15%+ and heal-on-ward and other things may help defilers a good bit).

Again, just look at the parses.  Defilers are consitently sitting at 2-2.5k HPS from both ST and group wards.  Mystics are consistently sitting at 1-1.5k HPS from both ST and group wards.  The fury buff may help, but I don't think that practically doubles the HPS...(the maximum possible benefit on ST wards from the fury buff if you have 150% potency, 120% crit bonus, and 1000 abil mod is from 7k to 9k pre-crit which gives 29% net gain, tho the group ward's benefit may be greater, the actual gap in ST wards is so much greater than this)

But defilers have a definite advantage in terms of survivability (and I'm not sure what math you're talking about).

Ok, if you want to get even deeper into the minutia we could talk about the 10% Critical Mitigation and 10% Normal Mitigation buff you get from Bolster which I am sure blows away the 5% Magical Damage buff you mentioned, especially if you are comparing a MT Defiler to a MT Mystic.  However, it seems you are comparing the average HPS of a Mystic's group or single target ward to a MT Defiler's wards, and that is an error since it doesn't take context of the situation into account.  

Depending on your group setup and your gear's potency levels, a high DPS fury casting Wrath's Blessing on you, and the other buffs you have on you such as Dirge's Gravitas and Crit Bonus buffs, and some permanent and temporary Coercer buffs, allows a MT Shaman to cast group wards in the 30,000+ range.  That means the base amount must be way up there and the Ability cap is also way up there for all your heals and wards.  But we all know that a MT Mystic is rare, so any parses posted or talked about is most likely taken from a OT group context.  Being in the MT group you get more buffs than when you are in other groups due to group make up and general attention to you from buffing classes, plus your group, and particularly your tank, is subjected to way more damage to heal through, so comparing the average HPS of a insanely buffed MT Defiler healing through giant spike damage on their MT tank, to a lesser buffed Mystic in a OT group that is just concerned about AoEs and group heals, is not a genuine comparison at all to make, so why would you compare the two HPS?

I think you are missing what I am getting at.  The more accurate way to compare the classes is to look at the base amount stats of a Mystic or Defiler heal.  It is allways the same HPS potential.  Yes, the Defiler myth increase these spells by 2% on average, your right.  AND one of the heals I am talking about has a AA option in the Defiler tree that makes it contribute 2-3% more to the total parse, but you know what I am getting at, these are small numbers we are pushing around.  The bulk of heals cast by both Shaman are the same give or take 3-4%.  The rest are specials or procs like Nightmares (which you keep bringing up,) and they make up a very small portion of the healing on most fights, just look at the parses posted, it's like 4% at best.  Especially if you have a good cleric with reactives up all the time.  The reactive heals should beat Nightmare heal procs for most heals on groups and tanks, and the Shaman wards would take care of most of the damage.  This is also why Overloaded heals sucks.

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Old 07-20-2010, 05:19 PM   #76
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[email protected] Bayle wrote:

Ok, if you want to get even deeper into the minutia we could talk about the 10% Critical Mitigation and 10% Normal Mitigation buff you get from Bolster which I am sure blows away the 5% Magical Damage buff you mentioned, especially if you are comparing a MT Defiler to a MT Mystic.  However, it seems you are comparing the average HPS of a Mystic's group or single target ward to a MT Defiler's wards, and that is an error since it doesn't take context of the situation into account.  

The 5% magical damage reduction is group wide, putting it about equal to bolster's AA increase (5% reduction group wide versus 10% increase in mit relative to current mit for a single target), but then DW also has a damage reduction on it from AAs iirc, giving yet another slight edge in survivability to defilers.

[email protected] Bayle wrote:

Depending on your group setup and your gear's potency levels, a high DPS fury casting Wrath's Blessing on you, and the other buffs you have on you such as Dirge's Gravitas and Crit Bonus buffs, and some permanent and temporary Coercer buffs, allows a MT Shaman to cast group wards in the 30,000+ range.  That means the base amount must be way up there and the Ability cap is also way up there for all your heals and wards.  But we all know that a MT Mystic is rare, so any parses posted or talked about is most likely taken from a OT group context.  Being in the MT group you get more buffs than when you are in other groups due to group make up and general attention to you from buffing classes, plus your group, and particularly your tank, is subjected to way more damage to heal through, so comparing the average HPS of a insanely buffed MT Defiler healing through giant spike damage on their MT tank, to a lesser buffed Mystic in a OT group that is just concerned about AoEs and group heals, is not a genuine comparison at all to make, so why would you compare the two HPS?

The thing is, the heal parses that I've looked at do include MT mystics (including a lot of my own parses when the MT defiler was MIA), not only the OT or dps group heal parses.  Also, like I said before, the buffs help, but they will not double the HPS from an otherwise identical spell.  I think I'm gonna look deeper into the issue and see if I can get some parses outta wyzz before and after betrayal to see if I can further illustrate the differences.

[email protected] Bayle wrote:

I think you are missing what I am getting at.  The more accurate way to compare the classes is to look at the base amount stats of a Mystic or Defiler heal.  It is allways the same HPS potential.  Yes, the Defiler myth increase these spells by 2% on average, your right.  AND one of the heals I am talking about has a AA option in the Defiler tree that makes it contribute 2-3% more to the total parse, but you know what I am getting at, these are small numbers we are pushing around.  The bulk of heals cast by both Shaman are the same give or take 3-4%.  The rest are specials or procs like Nightmares (which you keep bringing up,) and they make up a very small portion of the healing on most fights, just look at the parses posted, it's like 4% at best.  Especially if you have a good cleric with reactives up all the time.  The reactive heals should beat Nightmare heal procs for most heals on groups and tanks, and the Shaman wards would take care of most of the damage.  This is also why Overloaded heals sucks.

I completely understand what you're saying, but I believe that if you add up the 2% here, the 2% there, and the 3% over there, you start to see where I'm coming from, these little things add up to make the non-negligible difference in heal potential.

It may seem like I'm QQ'ing about mystics, but I'm not tbh, I'm 100% satisfied with my healing, I can MT heal or OT heal, or dps group heal (solo for the most part), or even flat out dps if I want to, that is the cool thing about being a mystic, while the defiler tends to be more survival oriented and cemeted in his role I can hop around all over the place; I'm completely satisfied with our role SMILEY

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Old 07-20-2010, 05:49 PM   #77
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If they balanced our Myth I think we would have less to talk about too.  I guess what got me fired up was when I read some players, especially Mystics who should know better, say that we are nothing compared to Defilers heal-wise, or that Defilers heal for 30% more than Mystics.  I just don't think it is constructive dialog and trashes the Mystic class.  I will concede that Defilers may have a "slight edge" here or there, but not a huge one overall.  If there is some AA option or spell that I just somehow happened to miss that doubles a Defiler's HPS heal output for every ward and heal I would really like for someone to point that ability out.  The differences in AA abilities, Mythical procs, and spells we have talked about are minor, and not major differences.  Nightmares may parse 4% of the parse, but so would Oberon, or Torpor if the mystic was healing instead of the Defiler...

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Old 07-22-2010, 08:05 PM   #78
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your right we can heal just as well as defilers.. but changing our myth to ability mod and not saying anything was garbage.. sure it may be only a little potentcy here and there but it adds up after a while...and remember potentcy not only affects our heals/wards.. it also affects our damage.. ability mod is pretty much useless and potentcy is much better.... that is the only big thing i see wrong.. as far as us healing on par with our counterparts.. we do it well imo.

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Old 07-23-2010, 09:21 AM   #79
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KNINE wrote:

changing our myth to ability mod and not saying anything was garbage.. sure it may be only a little potentcy here and there but it adds up after a while...and remember potentcy not only affects our heals/wards.. it also affects our damage..

The potency added from the mythical affected wards only, not heals, not spells, and not CAs.

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Old 07-23-2010, 10:58 AM   #80
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I think nearly anyone you ask would agree that defilers had an edge on healing for the last x years that our mythical has had a useful heal boost on it. Changing the useful heal boost (hundreds and thousands of extra hp to wards) to a close to useless (truly useless with a fury buff) mythical affect that has zero effect opn most wards and a few hundreds just on the biggest, didn't suddenly improve mystic healing to place us just behind defilers.

If that was the only way they could do the maths, perhaps I can accept that. What I can't accept is that we healed a bit less with a useful effect, how does taking it away and giving us a garbage affect instead - where we still need ability mod for our direct heals anyway so it's doubly useless we can't even gear solely for potency - how does taking a significant healing boost away from the class that healed less to start with count as balance.

Most of all I can't accept giving us nothing in return for the things they take away, like both the latest mythical nerfs; particularly in an expansion where the itemisation gives mystics no damage edge to offset the heal edge defilers have. All the defilers who try find they can dps and buff a dps group just as good as mystics, the reasons for this are myriad, always on crit bonus versus rarely on stampede, str buff becoming useless to everyone but just the tank(s) in raid, on priest gear no priest haste item this expac, no dps mod, no attack speed, almost only spell reuse almost no ability reuse, the massive hike to cast speeds having significantly better returns on spells because of recovery time versus cast times of spells & ca's etc etc.

I like my mystic, I just want them to actually give something in return when they take something away, so balance is preserved, the devs are failing at this.

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Old 07-23-2010, 06:11 PM   #81
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Hene wrote:

[email protected] Bayle wrote:

Ok, if you want to get even deeper into the minutia we could talk about the 10% Critical Mitigation and 10% Normal Mitigation buff you get from Bolster which I am sure blows away the 5% Magical Damage buff you mentioned, especially if you are comparing a MT Defiler to a MT Mystic.  However, it seems you are comparing the average HPS of a Mystic's group or single target ward to a MT Defiler's wards, and that is an error since it doesn't take context of the situation into account.  

The 5% magical damage reduction is group wide, putting it about equal to bolster's AA increase (5% reduction group wide versus 10% increase in mit relative to current mit for a single target), but then DW also has a damage reduction on it from AAs iirc, giving yet another slight edge in survivability to defilers.

I just remembered that the Mystic's also have an AA ability called Ancestry, and if cast on the Dirge can increase the Dirge's Stoneskin (Percussion of Stone) proc rate to group by 20%.  As we all know, stoneskin is far superior to a mitigation buff since the person flat out avoids the entire hit.  But like I said before, we are getting into fuzzy math when comparing all these effects to each other.

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Old 07-27-2010, 12:33 PM   #82
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[email protected] Bayle wrote:

Hene wrote:

[email protected] Bayle wrote:

Ok, if you want to get even deeper into the minutia we could talk about the 10% Critical Mitigation and 10% Normal Mitigation buff you get from Bolster which I am sure blows away the 5% Magical Damage buff you mentioned, especially if you are comparing a MT Defiler to a MT Mystic.  However, it seems you are comparing the average HPS of a Mystic's group or single target ward to a MT Defiler's wards, and that is an error since it doesn't take context of the situation into account.  

The 5% magical damage reduction is group wide, putting it about equal to bolster's AA increase (5% reduction group wide versus 10% increase in mit relative to current mit for a single target), but then DW also has a damage reduction on it from AAs iirc, giving yet another slight edge in survivability to defilers.

I just remembered that the Mystic's also have an AA ability called Ancestry, and if cast on the Dirge can increase the Dirge's Stoneskin (Percussion of Stone) proc rate to group by 20%.  As we all know, stoneskin is far superior to a mitigation buff since the person flat out avoids the entire hit.  But like I said before, we are getting into fuzzy math when comparing all these effects to each other.

Ok, so we have:

Defiler spells VS. Mystic spells about as follows (I compare DW vs. oberon and maelstrom vs. ancestral sentry as they are closer than DW versus ancestral and oberon vs. maelstrom):

ST and group heals ~= ST and group heals

Defiler ST and group wards > Mystic ST and group wards

Bane of warding < Torpor

Death ward > (when the tank is in need of heals / is spiking) or ~= (in an average fight) Oberon

Death ward AA (5% single target damage reduction) ~= (or maybe &ltSMILEY Bolster AA (mit and crit mit increase)

Myth proc (5% group wide damage reduction) > (slightly) Ancestry put on a dirge (3% stoneskins, over time prevents about 3% of incoming damage)

Defiler temp pet > Mystic temp pet

Shroud of armor > Runic armor

Defiler debuffs ~= (for the most part) Mystic debuffs

Maelstrom > Ancestral Sentry

Defiler health buffs > Mystic health buffs

Crystallize soul (is this a comparable spell?) < Prophetic ward

Crit Bonus (on shroud) > (for any group that is not purely melee) or = (if the group is purely melee) Stampede

It is hard to compare spirit tap (emergency ability that rocks when needed) to the consitently reliable nightmares myth ability...so I'll just ignore them for now

From a survivability standpoint, mystics primarily have Prophetic ward and Torpor over defilers' comparable abilities (maybe bolster, too); while defilers have stronger wards (faster casting, extra heals attatched to them), DW (better than oberon in situations where the tank is spiking and extra healing is needed), better temp pet, better myth proc, shroud or armor (better than runic), maelstrom, and groupwide crit bonus.  There are other arguable difference, but in general, mystics gain easy-to-use CAs and some moderate buffs over defilers, which (approximately) offsets their lower overall healing ability.

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Old 07-27-2010, 02:31 PM   #83
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Hene wrote:

KNINE wrote:

changing our myth to ability mod and not saying anything was garbage.. sure it may be only a little potentcy here and there but it adds up after a while...and remember potentcy not only affects our heals/wards.. it also affects our damage..

The potency added from the mythical affected wards only, not heals, not spells, and not CAs.

You are right.. wards only... 2 emergencies, ST ward, Grp Ward.Torpor, Oberon, and Prophetic ward... lots of wards..

we are shaman SMILEY

single small heal..single big heal...grp heal..ancestral channeling.. not alot of heals.. again we are shaman.. we prevent damage SMILEY

again the potentcy did affect what it was supposed to and that sir is why so many people are upset..no one said anythign thing about it effecting heals or combat arts.. they just said they wanted their potentcy back instead of ability mod...

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Old 07-27-2010, 04:52 PM   #84
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KNINE wrote:

Hene wrote:

KNINE wrote:

changing our myth to ability mod and not saying anything was garbage.. sure it may be only a little potentcy here and there but it adds up after a while...and remember potentcy not only affects our heals/wards.. it also affects our damage..

The potency added from the mythical affected wards only, not heals, not spells, and not CAs.

You are right.. wards only... 2 emergencies, ST ward, Grp Ward.Torpor, Oberon, and Prophetic ward... lots of wards..

we are shaman

single small heal..single big heal...grp heal..ancestral channeling.. not alot of heals.. again we are shaman.. we prevent damage

again the potentcy did affect what it was supposed to and that sir is why so many people are upset..no one said anythign thing about it effecting heals or combat arts.. they just said they wanted their potentcy back instead of ability mod...

actually, you said it affected heals, wards, and damage; did you read your own post?

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Old 07-27-2010, 05:12 PM   #85
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[email protected] Bayle wrote:

I will concede that Defilers may have a "slight edge" here or there, but not a huge one overall.

And that's the gist of it.  Mystic can contribute a bit more DPS either through buffs or actual melee and defilers can heal slightly more.  It's that simple.  Same goes for Fury/Warden, and Inquisitor/Templar.  The unfortunate thing is you'll have Hene sitting here argueing nonsense until the end of time to try and make some obscure point.

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Old 07-27-2010, 06:55 PM   #86
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StaticLex wrote:

[email protected] Bayle wrote:

I will concede that Defilers may have a "slight edge" here or there, but not a huge one overall.

And that's the gist of it.  Mystic can contribute a bit more DPS either through buffs or actual melee and defilers can heal slightly more.  It's that simple.  Same goes for Fury/Warden, and Inquisitor/Templar.  The unfortunate thing is you'll have Hene sitting here argueing nonsense until the end of time to try and make some obscure point.

What? My point is defilers heal more, lol; I was trying to show Arcane that defilers do, in fact, heal more than mystics SMILEY

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Old 07-27-2010, 08:05 PM   #87
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yep i just re-read it lol.. was in wrong mode of thinking.. but whatever lol.. i was wrong and stand corrected for bad post SMILEY.. point is they took it out WITHOUT SAYING ANYTHING IN ANY NOTES, THINKING WE WOULD MISS IT, and make it into ability modifier...after they already adjusted values on ST..then adjusted timer to 10 mins.. etc.. /shrug gotten used to it and can still heal on par.. point being it was ninja'ed for no reason at all.

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Old 07-28-2010, 07:07 AM   #88
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First of all Hene, to summarize the detailed exchange we have had in such broad strokes, and then to say at the end of your over-simplistic 'greater than' and 'lesser than' conclusions about specific sub-class spells, that Defilers just seem to heal better, and Mystics DPS better, and everyone can just go home now - nothing to see here -  reveals the problems in perception, and reason, most people have had about this topic.  There are so many subtle differences between the AA specs, special sub-class abilities, and even the posted parses, it makes it difficult to understand, and tempting, to just throw up our hands and say this class is better, or that class is better.  The ironic side to all of this though is most of the differences we have talked about are really meaningless.  

"Death ward > (when the tank is in need of heals / is spiking) or ~= (in an average fight) Oberon"

It is silly to conclude that Deathward is better than Oberon like you did, since Oberon can take two big spike hits and Deathward might take one if your lucky.  Deathward is an awesome emergency ward, but is really radically different from Oberon.  But you just seem to think that Oberon sucks compared to Deathward so there, just deal with it. lol

"Death ward AA (5% single target damage reduction) ~= (or maybe < Bolster AA (mit and crit mit increase)"

You then go on to say the 5% single target damage reduction on Deathward = the AA ability that makes Bolster increase not only all stats by 20% but the Crit Mit and Normal Mit by 10%.  First of all crit mit is uncapped, so for most guilds progressing through the content still this would give a big edge to a tank, or under geared player.  You seem to have also forgot that Bolster can be cast on the tank for over a minute, so that buff is on the tank for much longer than Deathward's buff is, making it far more powerful than the damage reduction on Deathward.  But you just seem to think they are the same so nothing to see here. Come on.

"Myth proc (5% group wide damage reduction) > (slightly) Ancestry put on a dirge (3% stoneskins, over time prevents about 3% of incoming damage)"

You then said that the myth 'proc' 5% group wide MAGIC damage reduction is better than a stoneskin proc enhancement?  How in the hell did you figure that math out? or did you just conclude that...  Especially when the proc magic damage reduction only absorbs one hit every 12 seconds?  On a AoE fight with a ton of arcane AoEs you might be right, hard to say.  If the Mystic is in the main tank group on a fight that doesn't have many arcane AoEs, you are dead wrong though.  Hell, if the Mystic is in any group with a Dirge you are most likely wrong.  The proc rate for the Dirge's Percussion of Stone ability is 15% base I believe, and this rate is increased by Ancestry to 18%, so the odds of a player in your group getting immunity to all damage goes up by 3%.  This is like uncontested avoidance on a fighter.  Depending on the mob, you could avoid/heal 20,000-40,000K hits 3% more of the time with Ancestry, saving a ton of wards that a Defiler would have had to blow through, and with a 5% arcane damage reduction you could avoid what?  1000-2000 of the same hit?  But on the next hit you might avoid/heal 500 damage with Ancestry, and with a 5% arcane damage reduction you could have avoided 25 damage, so how do we compare the two abilities really?  Another way to look at this is the Mystic's have a proc ward that has a 3% chance to proc when hits are received, and could absorb between 1 and 40,000 OF ALL damage on a player, and the Defiler's have a proc ability that absorbs 5% of arcane damage received.  Both abilities might proc, might not.  On fights with no arcane damage the Defiler ability would be completely useless, while the Mystic ability would be useful.  Once again, there is no clear cut comparison here, these are not apples being compared to apples.  But you seem to think there is a slight superiority with the Defiler arcane damage reduction anyways.  Right, whatever.

"Defiler temp pet > Mystic temp pet"

Yes, yes, the temp heal pets are not balanced, and the Defiler temp heal pet is most likely better in most fights, but they both parse 1%, or lower, on heal parses, and both suck really bad, so why even compare the heal pets?

"Shroud of armor > Runic armor"

You say Shroud of Armor is better than Runic Armor using broad strokes again, but it isn't as clear cut as you are making it.  Looking at a heal parse from a Rathgar fight tonight, I noticed that my Runic Armor parsed 5% of my parse, and absorbed 58,056 damage, and the Defiler's shroud of Armor parsed 3% of her heals, and absorbed 27,827 damage.  Another Mystic in my raid parsed 8% of his heals to Runic Armor, and it absorbed 47,825 damage.  If the Defiler's Shroud of Armor is so much better, why are the Mystics in my raid beating the Defiler on the parse by two fold with their Runic Armor?  I know!  The Mystic's Runic Armor absorb's physical attacks, and the Defiler's Shroud of Armor absorbs elemental, arcane, and nox attacks.  Rathgar has a ton of physical AoE attacks, so I guess it depends on the fight huh?  OR, maybe the Defiler was able to keep her group ward up more than us Mystics because her group took less damage for some reason.  It could be a difference in AA specs also I suppose, since I put AA points into Runic Armor, not sure about the other Mystic.  But the point is, you can't really compare the two and just conclude, "Oh yeah, Shoud of Armor is better."  And don't forget, we are talking about such small amounts healed, and if there is a difference it is hard to prove to say the least, and most likely meaningless to debate anyways.

"Maelstrom > Ancestral Sentry"

Maelstrom is better than Ancestral Sentry?  But these spells are so different how can you compare them? Maelstrom is a HoT spell, and hit or miss depending on if your wards are up, and Sentry is a damage intercept spell that can take hits in the 20-30,000 range, so how do you just conclude they are comparable, and that Maelstrom is better?  This is just silly Hene.

"Defiler health buffs > Mystic health buffs"

The health buff argument is so pointless I am not going to repeat what has been said by me, and several others, so if you want to believe that one class can buff a couple hundred more health than the other on average have fun proving it.  The buffs Mystics have attached to their heals have a HP value too, which you are ignoring, but I don't see the point in debating this anymore since everyone has health in the 25,000 range now-a-days, and a 1% increase (250 HP) is not going to make a bit of difference in fights.

"Crystallize soul (is this a comparable spell?) < Prophetic ward"

What the hell are you smoking?  No.  It is not comparable at all.

"Crit Bonus (on shroud) > (for any group that is not purely melee) or = (if the group is purely melee) Stampede"

Stampede can parse insane damage, especially if you have a Brigand, similiar class, in your group.  Tonight I saw 10,000+ damage procing on every hit the Brig in my group landed.  Are you serious that these are equal?  lol  In fact, when we got this ability in Beta, I think I remember quite a few Defilers blowing fuses over it, and even concluding that with Stampede alone, there would be no point to have a Defiler in any raid ever again.  I think that was a bit over the top, but I think you might want to rethink this one...

"It is hard to compare spirit tap (emergency ability that rocks when needed) to the consitently reliable nightmares myth ability...so I'll just ignore them for now"

Depending on the fight, Spirit Tap can be key to surviving.  Nightmares is just there, and is far less focused.  These abilities are hard to compare through, but I will say this:  EVERYTIME I have activated Spirit Tap, no one has ever died in my group as long as it was active, plus we got full power, so to me, it is as good as a temporary group invulnerability and 100% power replenishment.  

The moral of this story, or debate, is that the difference between a Defiler and Mystic is hard to pin down.  I am glad to see a few Mystics stating the facts about their own experiences healing, and how their toon heals fine in any situation they find themselves in, despite the propaganda out there about how better Defilers are.  Many Mystics who know better have chimed in saying we hold our own, or words to that effect, but others choose to split hairs over the differences, and that's ok too.

I don't mind splitting hairs, since the more hairs we split, the more players are going to realize that for every Defiler ability that is considered OP, there is an equal ability on a Mystic.  We have gone back and forth quite a bit at this point in time, and for every Defiler ability that was held up as being way better than a Mystic's, I have shown a comparable ability on a Mystic.  But, if anything, we should be able to agree there is no clear cut difference between the two, and perhaps we could agree that there are a myriad of small differences that are simply too hard to pin down and compare.  I did say that Defilers have a "slight edge here or there," but it should have been understood from all my previous posts on this thread that I believe Mystics have slight edges in other areas too.  Did I really need to clarify that? -guess so...

Prophetic Ward and Ancestry are some obvious examples of unique abilities that Defilers can't touch.  Spirit Tap, Torpor, Sentry, and Oberon are some others that give the Mystic small edges here or there depending on the fight.  But, the problem I see is we can't put static HPS values on these differences to understand the true HPS difference between all these spells.  As a result, it is a fallacy to just claim that this ability, or that ability, is better because we just feel that they are comparable somehow, and one is better than the other.  In the big scheme of things, as I have stated half a dozen times by now, all these hairs that we are splitting are really less than 10% of a typical Shaman heal parse total, so why focus on these spells as defining each class, if in the end it really doesn't parse meaningfully?  

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Old 07-28-2010, 09:58 AM   #89
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I appreciate your detailed response(s) to my post, but, like pretty much every single spell, there is a situation where it prevails/seems OP/does more than average, I was attempting to speak for the spells in general 

However, I see that you have several valid points.  I would like to say a few things tho:

I was doing comparisons on spells on a 1-to-1 basis (yes, yes, I know this method isn't perfect), defilers don't have exactly the same lineup of spells that mystics, so a few of the spells (namely prophetic ward and ancestral sentry) do not line up with defiler spells what-so-ever, so I decided to compare those 2 spells with the 2 spells defilers have that don't line up at all with mystic spells (maelstrom and crystallize soul)

[email protected] Bayle wrote:

"Death ward > (when the tank is in need of heals / is spiking) or ~= (in an average fight) Oberon" It is silly to conclude that Deathward is better than Oberon like you did, since Oberon can take two big spike hits and Deathward might take one if your lucky.  Deathward is an awesome emergency ward, but is really radically different from Oberon.  But you just seem to think that Oberon sucks compared to Deathward so there, just deal with it. lol

Don't forget reuse times: 1min for DW versus 2.5min for oberon

And also, pay attention to the "or ~="

[email protected] Bayle wrote:

You then said that the myth 'proc' 5% group wide MAGIC damage reduction is better than a stoneskin proc enhancement?...Depending on the mob, you could avoid/heal 20,000-40,000K hits 3% more of the time with Ancestry.

Just for clarification, it is "magical" (i.e. mitigatable non-physical i.e. nox,arcane,ele) damage, and the thing is, over a long period of time the occasionally absorbed 20-40k hit will average out to 3% of 20-40k hits.  But I was under the impression that the damage reduction was not applied as an "absorbing" effect and was not dispelled as such, so if it does indeed stop reducing incoming damage after 1 hit, then Ancestry on a dirge is far more beneficial in general.

[email protected] Bayle wrote:

Yes, yes, the temp heal pets are not balanced, and the Defiler temp heal pet is most likely better in most fights, but they both parse 1%, or lower, on heal parses, and both suck really bad, so why even compare the heal pets?

I literally have never seen the mystic temp pet do more than 75 HPS and appears to do 5-10 HPS most of the time, while the defiler one appears to do 100-300 most of the time; and if we are not counting 200 HPS difference, then pretty much everything except the primary ward comparison is moot

[email protected] Bayle wrote:

You say Shroud of Armor is better than Runic Armor using broad strokes again, but it isn't as clear cut as you are making it.  Looking at a heal parse from a Rathgar fight tonight, I noticed that my Runic Armor parsed 5% of my parse, and absorbed 58,056 damage, and the Defiler's shroud of Armor parsed 3% of her heals, and absorbed 27,827 damage.  Another Mystic in my raid parsed 8% of his heals to Runic Armor, and it absorbed 47,825 damage.  If the Defiler's Shroud of Armor is so much better, why are the Mystics in my raid beating the Defiler on the parse by two fold with their Runic Armor?  I know!  The Mystic's Runic Armor absorb's physical attacks, and the Defiler's Shroud of Armor absorbs elemental, arcane, and nox attacks.  Rathgar has a ton of physical AoE attacks, so I guess it depends on the fight huh?  OR, maybe the Defiler was able to keep her group ward up more than us Mystics because her group took less damage for some reason.  It could be a difference in AA specs also I suppose, since I put AA points into Runic Armor, not sure about the other Mystic.  But the point is, you can't really compare the two and just conclude, "Oh yeah, Shoud of Armor is better."  And don't forget, we are talking about such small amounts healed, and if there is a difference it is hard to prove to say the least, and most likely meaningless to debate anyways.

How much incoming damage in general or overall is physical, how about magical? I think you will see my point, the shroud wards the far majority of AEs while runic wards far fewer AEs and auto atk dmg.  Aside from rothgar, there are not many mobs with primarily physical AEs are there?  As for your examples, I could find plenty showing shroud of armor doing 10+% of defiler heal parses, and runic doing much less

[email protected] Bayle wrote:

Stampede can parse insane damage, especially if you have a Brigand, similiar class, in your group.  Tonight I saw 10,000+ damage procing on every hit the Brig in my group landed.  Are you serious that these are equal?  lol  In fact, when we got this ability in Beta, I think I remember quite a few Defilers blowing fuses over it, and even concluding that with Stampede alone, there would be no point to have a Defiler in any raid ever again.  I think that was a bit over the top, but I think you might want to rethink this one...

Think about the reuse versus damage gained.  Yeah, stampede can add a bunch of 10k hits for 24 seconds most effecting melee classes, once every 5 minutes (or every 2.5 mins with capped reuse).  While crit bonus adds a consistent 2-4% to everyone's heals, CAs, spells etc (anything that crits).  So stampede may add more spike damage, but the crit bonus will end up bringing more to a group that is not pure melee.  Just curious, what % of said brigand's zone wide parse does stampede make up?

[email protected] Bayle wrote:

But, the problem I see is we can't put static HPS values on these differences to understand the true HPS difference between all these spells.  As a result, it is a fallacy to just claim that this ability, or that ability, is better because we just feel that they are comparable somehow, and one is better than the other.  In the big scheme of things, as I have stated half a dozen times by now, all these hairs that we are splitting are really less than 10% of a typical Shaman heal parse total, so why focus on these spells as defining each class, if in the end it really doesn't parse meaningfully?

This is very true, and I guess this is the cause of all "problems" with this debate, and I concede that a lot of the comparisons I made were loose and not true 100% of the time, and that each spell will have a specific situation where it reigns superior over the other, and visa versa; I was just trying to pin down the "in general" performance of the spells.

[email protected] Bayle wrote:

The moral of this story, or debate, is that the difference between a Defiler and Mystic is hard to pin down.  I am glad to see a few Mystics stating the facts about their own experiences healing, and how their toon heals fine in any situation they find themselves in, despite the propaganda out there about how better Defilers are.  Many Mystics who know better have chimed in saying we hold our own, or words to that effect, but others choose to split hairs over the differences, and that's ok too.

I completely agree that mystics can heal fine, I believe I have said so before in this very thread, but you are ignorant (or blind) if you do not see defilers having an advantage over mystics for survivability, this is why defilers still exist in raids.  Otherwise, (if mystics brought just as much survivability) every defiler in every raid would have been replaced by mystics who can add a bit more DPS

p.s. again, talk to some people who have seen both sides of the shaman class and can attest to the overall differences if you need some convincing (since you don't want to look at spells in general SMILEY)

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Old 07-28-2010, 06:04 PM   #90
Tehom

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I don't think many people would argue that defilers don't have an overall survivability edge - I think it's just difficult to quantify how large that edge is. I tend to think it's fairly small, other people think it's large. The significant points are usually things like our mythical proc, ancestral cleansing, and shroud of armor making groups more durable in AE situations. I think single-target survivability boosting is much closer given the number of abilities we trade off with one another.

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