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Old 05-12-2010, 01:33 PM   #1
Banditman

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Dear SOE,

As a Mystic playing EQ2 since release, I've seen the ebb and flow of the game.  There is a major trend towards incessant little things continuing to add up until a complete mess is all that remains.  Thus, when I see the tides over the past six months in one of the classes I play, my concern is well founded.

Upon release of Sentinel's Fate, the Mystic Mythical was nerfed quite substantially.  Despite the fact that this item had been in game for almost two years in that form, the item was deemed inappropriate.

Now, three months later, we're being asked to swallow another nerf to the same item (more accurately, the ability derived from that item).  To make matters worse, the nerf was done without note or explanation, it was left to the players to discover.

Enough is enough.  The most recent change to our Mythical ability is unwarranted.  We are being asked to simply accept this as necessary, while no one can point to a reason why this is so.  It's this constant erosion of abilities that eventually leads to a class needing a large scale pass at balance.  Stop now.  Don't let this class continue down that road to become the next "Coercer", "Ranger" or "Shadow Knight".

Reverse the unneeded change to our ability before this hits the live servers in two weeks.  It doesn't make any sense at all.

Thank you.

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Old 05-12-2010, 09:11 PM   #2
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Can you clairfy what nerf you are refering to?

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Old 05-12-2010, 10:12 PM   #3
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I was always under the idea that all it added in the first place was ability mod and not potency? 30% of wisdom = potency... that'd be nuts. Or am I not understanding something. I know I'm 1592 wisdom self buffed but unbolstered, 30% of that would be 477.6. Are you saying the myth adds 477.6% potency to my spells, because I honestly don't think it does.

In fact on live I tested it. On live I'm at 60.4% potency and 684 ability mod (although I'm not sure either of that should matter in these tests, but putting it up here nevertheless). My group ward with my myth buff on does 8689, my group ward without the myth buff does 8212. 8689-8212=477! Now my single ward does 5509 with my myth buff, and without does 5036, 5509-5036=473. At that point I think I might be hitting the ability mod cap for the spell. If I take off ancestral avatar and lower my wis by 71.3. At 1521 or 456.3 ability mod. 5492 single ward with myth, and 5036 without. 5492-5036=456. So it works out there. Either way it seems to me it's already only adding ability mod. Again unless I'm not understanding or missing something.

Although I will agree it no longer affecting torpor and runic armor really sucks and I'd like to see that change not happen. And please if I'm wrong let me know.

-Korack the Ogre Shaman

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Old 05-12-2010, 10:32 PM   #4
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Nuklaim wrote:

I was always under the idea that all it added in the first place was ability mod and not potency? 30% of wisdom = potency... that'd be nuts. Or am I not understanding something. I know I'm 1592 wisdom self buffed but unbolstered, 30% of that would be 477.6. Are you saying the myth adds 477.6% potency to my spells, because I honestly don't think it does.

In fact on live I tested it. On live I'm at 60.4% potency and 684 ability mod (although I'm not sure either of that should matter in these tests, but putting it up here nevertheless). My group ward with my myth buff on does 8689, my group ward without the myth buff does 8212. 8689-8212=477! Now my single ward does 5509 with my myth buff, and without does 5036, 5509-5036=473. At that point I think I might be hitting the ability mod cap for the spell. If I take off ancestral avatar and lower my wis by 71.3. At 1521 or 456.3 ability mod. 5492 single ward with myth, and 5036 without. 5492-5036=456. So it works out there. Either way it seems to me it's already only adding ability mod. Again unless I'm not understanding or missing something.

Although I will agree it no longer affecting torpor and runic armor really sucks and I'd like to see that change not happen. And please if I'm wrong let me know.

-Korack the Ogre Shaman

no it would add 477.6 potency. So if your ward does 2400 base, then you would get 477.6/2400 = 19.9% potency

and keep in mind that you are well beyond the cap on ability mod for runic and torpor, therefore it is clear that the mythical is not, in fact, adding ability mod, but instead potency "mod"

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Old 05-12-2010, 11:01 PM   #5
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Ok like I said, if i was wrong then let me know and seems I was. So disregard what I said above. And yeah then I am [Removed for Content] off about this change. I understand with potency uncapped and with future expansions this "could" be an issue as wisdom continues to climb. But will wisdom climb at such a pace that this will become an issue? Probably not. Especially the way the potency is added to the spell as per the above poster said. So I'm behind this nerf getting changed back to being potency added instead of ability mod.

Also I was always confused how runic armour/torpor got such a huge jump, but I guess I ignored that issue in my math =P.

-Korack the Ogre Shaman

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Old 05-13-2010, 03:19 AM   #6
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so sad, this is huge nerf. ninja huge nerf. I hate

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Old 05-13-2010, 10:08 PM   #7
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/sign

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Old 05-16-2010, 12:18 PM   #8
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I knew we should never have mentioned anything about it when we found out. SOE's policy seems to be to search out the small knots of people jumping up and down with joy on the forums and whack them where it hurts most. After all, we should know by now that SOE's image of a priest is a cure-bot, nothing else is important.

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Old 05-16-2010, 03:52 PM   #9
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I can understand the idea. With potency uncapped it would give us a decided advantage in ward size compared to defilers. But at the same time it will be nearly useless if left as it is unless you uncap ability mod as well.

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Old 05-16-2010, 05:01 PM   #10
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Well, the extra ~400 points added to most of our wards will be practically negligible...the only thing that counts (for all mystics) is torpor and runic armor, neither of which will become uber/overpowered with an added 400 points.  Yes a 1k point runic armor will be nice and help quite a bit, but defilers have crit bonus added to their AE ward-buff, making up for the extra physical healing help we get.

Idk what the equivalent to torpor is for defilers, but again, the 400 points don't do give us that much of an edge over defilers...plus it's not like their mythical doesn't have a buff

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Old 05-16-2010, 07:40 PM   #11
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Changing the mystic mythical effect from potency to ability mod is totally useless I think for someone who has a fury mod buff when raiding, and as stated messes up things like runic armour and torpor.

Runic armor LIVE 544

Runic armor TEST 413

Torpor LIVE 3602

Torpor TEST 2679

etc

If they're going to nerf the mystic mythical then they could do something sodding useful at the same time, like turning the pointless 15% groupwide DA proc into a 10% groupwide Ability Reuse, or stop crit bonus only applying half to wards and change it to just beginning at 1.15 rather than 1.3, or the amount of situations that bypass wards, e.g. mob in palace, relics in gears BG's and so on.

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Old 05-18-2010, 02:29 PM   #12
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I got some time to compare the changes to wards with the new test formula for the mythical bonus adding ability mod that we could be saddled with, versus the current way where it adds potency. The results were pretty alarming.

Ancestral Ward 10% less benefit

Umbral Ward 3% less benefit (because of it's high cap for ability mod)

Oberon 18% less benefit

Torpor actually decreases by 31% !

Runic Armor actually decreases 24% !

It's a pretty harsh nerf to mystics, and if possible it needs to be stopped before it hits live - not changing the existing formula is much better for us I think, all the potency possible is needed with critbonus being halved for wards.

With the new version of the formula, anytime you get a fury buff the new mythical effect becomes useless I think (can't test that on test) and if you have good adornments for ability (I don't currently) it also makes the mythical effect useless. So the more you work at your gear the more redundant your myth buff becomes, that can't be intended.

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Old 05-18-2010, 02:38 PM   #13
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Hene wrote:

Idk what the equivalent to torpor is for defilers, but again, the 400 points don't do give us that much of an edge over defilers...plus it's not like their mythical doesn't have a buff

Defilers don't really get anything like Torpor.  Torpor was added as a L52 Ancient Teaching back in DoF.  At L52, Defilers got Soul Cannibalize, which does damage to the mob and returns power to the Defiler.  That's a pretty strong ability, but it's not really comparable to Torpor.

And yes, this nerf needs to go away before the stupid thing goes live.

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Old 05-18-2010, 04:24 PM   #14
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I hope it doesnt sound like emo ragiing, but if thsi goes live I don't think I'll continue subscribing to this game.

I find it extremely disturbing that there has not been a dev reply to any of the multiple threads on this issue that can be found on several forums. This is a huge nerf.

Maybe they would pay more attention if there was more noise about it, but I'm pretty sure 99% of the players or more are completely unaware of it.

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Old 05-19-2010, 12:15 PM   #15
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The nerf makes no-sense, I hope it does not make it to the life servers.

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Old 05-19-2010, 04:33 PM   #16
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I took off a couple of potency items (like neck & shoulders) so I wouldn't run into the problem of the potency ceiling on live not being in effect on test slanting results and then compared the exact same gear setups between test and live (both while in my house which is not a pvp zone - if that even matters).

My groupward buff runic armour drops from 544 currently to 413 on test

Torpor the quick regenerating single target drops from 3602 on live to 2679 on test (it has a lot of quick ticks so that adds up to a ton of healing)

Oberon drops from 8864 per tick on live to 7306 per tick on test. again, huge loss across lots of ticks.

Ancestral from 4880 live to 4384 on test

Umbral from 6654 on live to 6425 on test

The basic upshot is, when the new way of working things out comes to live, the increase in potency cap might see your healing change in a variety of ways, (afterall everyone has different setups ability mobs potency spell quality etc) it's possible you may not see that the big nerf has robbed you of a very large part of the increase that other healers are receiving.

Either fury and mystic deserved a massive nerf because we were way above other healers and the devs need to say so, or they need to remove a selective nerf to just us (if templars really are unaffected as someone has mentioned).

It's worth noting it's sort of a double nerf in some situations, by changing the wisdom potency bonus into ability mod, it means the excellant fury buff that I get in raids could soon be in many cases redundant, I will no longer have the potency for many spells to take advantage of it, and my ability mod despite being higher will actually already be capped far lower for most spells. So it nerfs both furies giving out myth buff and in my case a mystic receiving it.

If you want to check the changes for your healer with your gear, do make sure your potency in live is set low enough that it doesn't cap out then mirror that gear/aa/stance selection to test - that way you see the change in mythical effect, and not 1 set of live heal figures that are held down by the potency cap and the test set that can go above the potency cap.

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Old 05-20-2010, 05:37 PM   #17
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/sign

Really?  I already posted in the In development forum about this same thread, but to reiterate why this is dumb here we go. 

No one, at all, anywhere, is complaining about this issue.  Who said that the fury/mystic myth was OP now?  Where was the outcry for change on this from other healers?  Come on SOE, Furys?  Really?  What raid guild actively recruits for a fury?  Furys and Mystics are the 2 most underplayed healers in the game, and now you decide to take away even more from an agreed upon [Removed for Content] class? 

What I love is that lots of people are complaining about lots of issues, and agree on things that need change, and yet instead of fixing them, you decide to fix something that is not and will not be broken?  Really?  Who cares if if Runic Armor got a beefy upgrade, 90% of mobs dont have huge physical AOES, so the ward isnt stopping anything other than AOE auto on ur melee.  Do mystics cry out that the Defiler equivelant is OP?  No we dont, we accept that they have an awesome ability, and move on.  With that said, again, your fixing something that NO ONE is complaining about, not the class's playing, nor  other competeing healers.  

SOE, look at this problem.  Will LEAVING this as is, DRASTICALLY make a huge difference in the want/need and ability of Mystics or Furys?  The answer is no.  The same people will play them, and that is that.  There isnt going to be some HUGE PLing fast of mystics and furys come thisupdate like there was with SKs during TSO, because the way the myth works now, isnt OP, and helps the class shine where they wouldnt otherwise.

You already decided that changing the Mystic myth clicky 2 years after release was a good idea, when no one was complaining about that either, lets not screw us over again, were not exactly a huge player base here. 

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Old 05-21-2010, 10:10 AM   #18
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they should really quit focusing on and nerfing insignificant stuff like this and fix crusaders, or their database issues, or Halas, or any of the tens or hundreds of other problems that are actually PROBLEMS

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Old 05-22-2010, 08:12 AM   #19
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Guys, if this upsets you, the In Testing Forum has this EXACT same debate going on at

http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/...id=478332 

Go hit it up, let the DEVS and SOE know that this is wrong, and a waste of DEV time that could be spent on DOZENS of SERIOUS issues currently in game.

Dont be lazy

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Old 05-22-2010, 03:49 PM   #20
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Agreed.  Post over there!  Don't put it off.  We're getting to the wire here.  We need to get that dialog going w/ Sony.

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Old 05-23-2010, 09:27 PM   #21
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And that thread no longer exists SMILEY

But I agree, its total uncalled for.  It seems every change they get they beef up the other healers and hinder the mystic more.  I dont see why.  Nothing we have is overpowered.   Our buffs are mainly stat based on a stat capping system.  Our wards are hindered by a severly lowered crit base, and now we sit at the third nerf to our "defining" myth.  Awesome SoE.

They say our power proc is still overpowered...Why? Its nothing that a chanter cant do? Its not like we are curing the entire raid? Or getting multiple group cures.  Thats Overpowered! Especially since everything is a cure fight.

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Old 05-24-2010, 03:34 PM   #22
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Not sure why the link is broken, but the thread is still there, in In Testing Feedback. 

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Old 05-24-2010, 04:43 PM   #23
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Well, sorry to say but it's going live.  It's a global bug-fix.  Let's just hope the imbalance gets noticed and promptly addressed.  I guess.  SMILEY

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Old 05-24-2010, 04:45 PM   #24
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oops, double. 

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Old 05-24-2010, 05:08 PM   #25
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Frametree wrote:

Well, sorry to say but it's going live.  It's a global bug-fix.  Let's just hope the imbalance gets noticed and promptly addressed.  I guess. 

*IT IS NOT A BUG FIX*

This is working as intended for two years.  It is being changed for no apparent reason.

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Old 05-24-2010, 05:20 PM   #26
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That's what Timetravelling said, anyway.  Just conveying the message.

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Old 05-24-2010, 05:25 PM   #27
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Banditman wrote:

Frametree wrote:

Well, sorry to say but it's going live.  It's a global bug-fix.  Let's just hope the imbalance gets noticed and promptly addressed.  I guess. 

*IT IS NOT A BUG FIX*

This is working as intended for two years.  It is being changed for no apparent reason.

He (timetravelling) said it is fixing a newly appeared bug with the code (and it seems to be unrelated to mystics).  Tbh idk why they didn't just fix the bug the right way...but w/e I guess now there is no need to do the epic or mythical quest for mystics as the item is useless

(though spirit tap is still useful on occasion, but I'd now trade my myth for a defilers any day...say goodbye to class-myth balance if there ever was any)

And if you haven't /petition it or /feedback it, please do so now and tomorrow or whenever it hits live.

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Old 05-24-2010, 06:19 PM   #28
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What he told me in a pm is that there's a bug that needed to be fixed; fixing it will bring about the change to our myth that we're so concerned about.  I told him, obviously, that it was going to be a very bad thing for us.  He says they (Xelgad in particular) are watching for balance problems.  Again, I'm just reporting.  So don't shoot me. ;P

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Old 05-24-2010, 10:23 PM   #29
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These are the numbers I am seeing through calculations for my heal spec:

Mystic w/Mastered Wards, 66% Crit Bonus, 1370 Wisdom, and Wrath's Blessing Maxing Ability Mod

Before Change

Ancestral Ward VIII     11,625 (116% Potency With Mythical Effect - Currently capped at 100% though)

Umbral Warding VII     17,112  (100% Potency With Mythical Effect)

After Change

Ancestral Ward VIII     11,569 (99% Potency Without Mythical Effect)  (Loosing 56 in ward size)

Umbral Warding VII     16,138 (89% Potency Without Mythical Effect)  (Loosing 974 in ward size, 6% Less)

If SoE left everything alone:

Ancestral Ward VIII     12,510 (116% Potency With Mythical Effect)  (Gain 885, 7% Larger)

Umbral Warding VII     17,112 (100% Potency With Mythical Effect) Same

I know there is more going on with misc minor wards like Torpor, Oberon, and Runic Armor, but looking at the major wards (at least in my case) instead of giving me a slightly larger single target ward, they are decreasing my group ward by almost 1000 points?  [Removed for Content] - this seriously blows.  It's like downgrading my Master spell to Adept.  Unless you have 10+% more potency than I do, your going to see the same kind of negative effect if this goes live.  Other healers are seeing gains with the Potency cap being lifted, why are we being penalized?

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Old 05-25-2010, 10:19 AM   #30
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Well the "we are looking for imbalances" is CRAP.  Why do I say that?  Because if you look at the update notes there is NOTHING there.  A vast minority of the players read the forums, but far more read the update notes.  Think maybe they are trying to hide something?  if you are trying to hide something why would you watch to see if it has an imbalacing effect.  Its crap crap crap.

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