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Old 03-17-2010, 09:05 AM   #1
Pijotre
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I know they didn't upgrade them to T8 already but I had thought they would do so for T9, is there any offical word on why the following spells aren't upgraded? Or were they just overlooked?

  • Lamenting Soul ends with III at level 66
  • Haze ends with VI at level 66
  • Lethargy ends with III at level 63

Best regards to our great Mystic community

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Old 03-17-2010, 10:39 AM   #2
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The reason was and, I assume, remains the debuffing of capped stats. To my knowledge, the stat cap for Attack Speed (Haste) and DPS mod remain  in place and therefore would explain why these spells do not upgrade. I could be mistaken on the caps for these particular stats, however.

I don't understand why there couldn't be a secondary effect added to the spells that could expand. That would allow spell upgrades every level even if the boost provided was minimal. This would be particularly relevant given the number of new stats added since the original creation of these spells (DA, AE auto attack, ability mod, pulse AEs, etc).

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Old 03-17-2010, 11:04 AM   #3
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That was the reasoning given.

I still think there are better answers.  Look at Haze.  It is an attack speed slow, yes.  However, it's also a weapon skill decrease . . . a Tier 7 skill level decrease.  That part needs upgrading, without costing me AA's to do so.

Secondary effects could certainly be added to a Tier 9 version of these abilities, to make the option attractive.

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Old 03-17-2010, 05:05 PM   #4
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[email protected] DLere wrote:

I know they didn't upgrade them to T8 already but I had thought they would do so for T9, is there any offical word on why the following spells aren't upgraded? Or were they just overlooked?

  • Lamenting Soul ends with III at level 66
  • Haze ends with VI at level 66
  • Lethargy ends with III at level 63

Best regards to our great Mystic community

Pijotre Kajek of LDL

Lamenting Soul debuffs DPS, which is a 'percentage' based stat (ignoring dimishing returns)

Haze debuffs attack speed, which is percentage based (again, ignoring dimishing returns), however, the skill debuff could use a boost

Lethargy also debuffs attack speed which is again percentage based

Because all of those spells are percentage based, debuff wise, they do not need to get upgraded.

Edit: But in PVP I could see this posing a potential problem

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Old 03-17-2010, 09:51 PM   #5
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Upgrade for Umbral Trap might be nice too... 16.5DPS reduction at expert level is barely worth it.

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Old 04-05-2010, 06:26 AM   #6
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[email protected] wrote:

Upgrade for Umbral Trap might be nice too... 16.5DPS reduction at expert level is barely worth it.

Yeah....but you still cast it....doncha.....doncha 

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Old 04-05-2010, 01:20 PM   #7
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[email protected] wrote:

Upgrade for Umbral Trap might be nice too... 16.5DPS reduction at expert level is barely worth it.

Do you understand DPS reduction? 16.5 DPS reduction means the enemy mob does 16.5% (+/- ) less damage from auto-atk.

Was it worth it to cast at level 35? If so then why do you think 16.5% less damage is no longer worth it?

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Old 04-05-2010, 02:52 PM   #8
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Hene wrote:

[email protected] wrote:

Upgrade for Umbral Trap might be nice too... 16.5DPS reduction at expert level is barely worth it.

Do you understand DPS reduction? 16.5 DPS reduction means the enemy mob does 16.5% (+/- ) less damage from auto-atk.

Was it worth it to cast at level 35? If so then why do you think 16.5% less damage is no longer worth it?

Yes. I understand... Still low IMO

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Old 04-05-2010, 04:21 PM   #9
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[email protected] wrote:

Yes. I understand... Still low IMO

It is encounter wide, therefore it follows that it should be lower than its single target counterpart.

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Old 04-05-2010, 09:38 PM   #10
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16.5 TE is sickwidit. I mean, think of it like this, how much would 16.5 dps mod affect ur parse? DUH
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Old 04-06-2010, 10:14 AM   #11
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I find myself waffling on the value of debuffs quite often these days.  Sure, I understand clearly the value of having them.  I can take a 10k auto-attack every 3 seconds and turn it into a 6k auto attack every 4.5 seconds . . . yes, it's valuable.

However, so many mobs now clear their debuffs, I get frustrated constantly re-applying them.  It's bad enough having three debuffs that last 30 seconds . . . but now I have six that last 30 seconds or less?  Very annoying.  I have enough to do already healing, warding and curing.  Now I'm throwing on debuffs and heaven forbid, trying to toss on a little damage now and then?

Busy times.

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Old 04-06-2010, 01:58 PM   #12
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I mean, I think that's a bad mentality. If no one cast debuffs you are basically going to make the fight harder for no reason by hurting everyone's parse and potentially wiping the raid. Saying you have too much to do is kind of like saying you can't do your job. If you still have your CAs you can joust in, hit all your CAs between 2 auto-attacks, joust out and cures and wards in place. Obviously on harder fights, just stay jousted out for extra time to cure and ward. Your 6k DPS is a drop in the bucket compared to the value of debuffs.
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Old 04-06-2010, 02:09 PM   #13
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Ways to minimize the hastle of debuffs....

1.) Prioritize - Know which debuffs have the greatest impact and use/maintain them after wipes based on the other encounter dynamics (cures, off tanking, etc)

2.) Divide and conquer - Make sure that you and the defiler (and/or other mystic if you run 2) divide the debuffs appropriately. Yes, our debuffs stack with a defiler's with the exception of Umbral Trap, but there's a cap on debuffs which is easily reached and does not require all classes to be using all debuffs at all times.

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Old 04-06-2010, 02:16 PM   #14
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[email protected] wrote:

Ways to minimize the hastle of debuffs....

1.) Prioritize - Know which debuffs have the greatest impact and use/maintain them after wipes based on the other encounter dynamics (cures, off tanking, etc)

2.) Divide and conquer - Make sure that you and the defiler (and/or other mystic if you run 2) divide the debuffs appropriately. Yes, our debuffs stack with a defiler's with the exception of Umbral Trap, but there's a cap on debuffs which is easily reached and does not require all classes to be using all debuffs at all times.

Yep, already do that.

Just sayin' . . . we don't really have a lot of transparency into the value of debuffs anymore and there is most definitely a cap that is (often) reached and heavily exceeded.

Take DPS for instance.  If everyone who had a "DPS" debuff was keeping it on the mobs, you'd be well over -200% DPS.  The problem is, you've got a 100% cap on that debuff.  How much does my ~50% really matter?  I can tell you that the parseable effect (overall) is barely even visible.

You know what, I'm going to try to get some clarification from timetravelling on this, it's really been bugging me.

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Old 04-20-2010, 11:08 AM   #15
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I have too issues with the value of our debufs, if they were so valuable people would complain when i m not using them. And figure, i did tests, i decided to stop debuffing for a while and nothing changed. The group dps did not drop and the mob dps remained unchanged.

When i solo, i have shadow aa in the ancient wrath line and i feel a clear difference when pulling with it our without.

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Old 04-20-2010, 11:31 AM   #16
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[email protected] wrote:

I have too issues with the value of our debufs, if they were so valuable people would complain when i m not using them. And figure, i did tests, i decided to stop debuffing for a while and nothing changed. The group dps did not drop and the mob dps remained unchanged.

Did you actually do any legitimate testing on this? or are you just throwing stuff out there?

Edit: I did the following tests on a creature summoned with a GH creature conjurer, so the mobs would be fresh, in a controlled environment, and the same level/class/buffs/etc.  I used ravacect slicers for these tests.

All results were taken as weighted averages from 2 or 3 fights totalling 1.5 min to 2 min and all provided very clear results, both individual and cumulative: debuffs do a lot

Base - NO debuffs:

Slicer Avg. Melee DPS: 1042 dps

Slicer Melee Minimum Hit: 2373 dmg

Slicer Maximum Hit: 3860 dmg

Slicer Avg. Melee Delay: 2.68 sec

With Lamenting Soul and Umbral Trap debuffs (-57.7 DPS):

Slicer Avg. Melee DPS: 811 dps

Slicer Melee Minimum Hit: 2007 dmg

Slicer Maximum Hit: 3165 dmg

Slicer Avg. Melee Delay: 2.69 sec

With Lethargy (-26.9 Attack Speed):

Slicer Avg. Melee DPS: 784 dps

Slicer Melee Minimum Hit: 2445 dmg

Slicer Maximum Hit: 3884 dmg

Slicer Avg. Melee Delay: 3.64 sec

Just for fun, here is from Lamenting Soul, Umbral Trap, Lethargy, and Haze all being kept up constantly:

Slicer Avg. Melee DPS: 418 dps

Slicer Melee Minimum Hit: 1799 dmg

Slicer Maximum Hit: 3187 dmg

Slicer Avg. Melee Delay: 5.00 sec

From the results above, it would appear that the slicer has 0 attack speed bonus built in, but a massive DPS mod built in:

Assuming the base weapon delay is 2.68: after 26.9 attack speed debuff 2.68/(1-0.269)=3.67

Assuming the base DPS mod is 0 and base DPS is 1042: after 57.7 DPS debuff 1042*(1-0.577)=441 (this is obviously not the case)

Assuming the base DPS mod is 100% (120) and base DPS is 1042/200%: after 57.7 DPS debuff 1042/2*(2-0.577)=741 (this still appears to not be the case, but beyond the cap does not make sense)

Even still, DPS and attack speed debuffs do help a lot.  The only time you will not see any difference is when they are unable to hit you to begin with due to stuns or tank parrying etc or the mob is well beyond those stat caps, in which case you should have several debuffers to help bring them below the cap to see any effect.  As the mob's base DPS mod and attack speed goes up, the debuffs will do less and less, but unless the mob is beyond the cap on those stats, the debuffs will still help.

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Old 04-22-2010, 11:27 AM   #17
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It's good data, but something I think we all pretty much accepted, at least I *hope* we all accepted it.  However, you touched on something important, VITAL even that really needs to be addressed.

As you demonstrated, mobs don't necessarily start out at some 'base' level of DPS and Haste.  They can be buffed.

Way back in the day, this didn't happen.  When I first did some calculations like this, back in 2004, mobs were simply sitting at 0 DPS, 0 Haste.  So, when you debuffed them, the effect "worked" the way you would expect it to.  Exactly.  Every time.  You could calculate exactly what the effect of the debuff was going to be.

Now, mobs come at you "pre buffed" in such a way that you can't simply dispel their buff, and your debuff doesn't necessarily yield what you think it will yield.  In fact, it almost NEVER yields what you think it will.

Unfortunately, we can't see those buffs, or know what they are.  For instance, you could have a mob with some inate (ie, hidden) buff to it's DPS mod, that puts it WAY over the cap.  Let's say you have a mob with a DPS mod of 400.  You could throw Lamenting and Umbral Trap at this mob ALL DAY and have ZERO impact on it's DPS.  And you'd have no way of knowing!

Or, you could have a mob that has a DPS mod of 200 - right at the cap.  Throwing LS and UT at this mob, you'd drop him to 143 or so.  It would barely make a dent in his DPS.

Too much hocus pocus!

It should be far more obvious when our debuffs land and actually "do" something.  I don't know what can be done aside from exposing the DPS and Haste mods of a target to the UI.  That would allow the UI modders to show us exactly where a mob was in regards to the upper cap and lower limit of debuffs.

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Old 04-22-2010, 06:41 PM   #18
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Banditman wrote:

It's good data, but something I think we all pretty much accepted, at least I *hope* we all accepted it.  However, you touched on something important, VITAL even that really needs to be addressed.

As you demonstrated, mobs don't necessarily start out at some 'base' level of DPS and Haste.  They can be buffed.

Way back in the day, this didn't happen.  When I first did some calculations like this, back in 2004, mobs were simply sitting at 0 DPS, 0 Haste.  So, when you debuffed them, the effect "worked" the way you would expect it to.  Exactly.  Every time.  You could calculate exactly what the effect of the debuff was going to be.

Now, mobs come at you "pre buffed" in such a way that you can't simply dispel their buff, and your debuff doesn't necessarily yield what you think it will yield.  In fact, it almost NEVER yields what you think it will.

Unfortunately, we can't see those buffs, or know what they are.  For instance, you could have a mob with some inate (ie, hidden) buff to it's DPS mod, that puts it WAY over the cap.  Let's say you have a mob with a DPS mod of 400.  You could throw Lamenting and Umbral Trap at this mob ALL DAY and have ZERO impact on it's DPS.  And you'd have no way of knowing!

Or, you could have a mob that has a DPS mod of 200 - right at the cap.  Throwing LS and UT at this mob, you'd drop him to 143 or so.  It would barely make a dent in his DPS.

Too much hocus pocus!

It should be far more obvious when our debuffs land and actually "do" something.  I don't know what can be done aside from exposing the DPS and Haste mods of a target to the UI.  That would allow the UI modders to show us exactly where a mob was in regards to the upper cap and lower limit of debuffs.

143 DPS mod is still above the cap; but I think I made a wrong assumption about DPS mod < 0

I'll have to verufy how it works later...

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Old 04-23-2010, 10:03 AM   #19
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No it isn't.

The cap is 200, which equates to 125% . . . for both Haste and DPS.  At least, that's the cap as it is applied to players.

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Old 04-23-2010, 10:55 AM   #20
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ok, but either way, I should figure out how negative DPS mod works. And where it caps (if at all)

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Old 04-23-2010, 12:01 PM   #21
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Now you're making me think.

I *believe* negative mod caps at 50%, basically cutting the mobs DPS in half.  What that equates to in SOE world is . . . uncertain.  You'd have to figure out the negative side of the DPS curve.  Haste definitely works this way . . . the best you can do is make the mob swing at half his normal speed.

That one is tricky though, and once gain, very hard to figure out.  Say you have a mob with a BASE delay of, I dunno, let's say 4 seconds.  He comes at you pre-Hasted to hit every 2 seconds, basically he's at ~125 Haste.  You'd actually need to debuff that mob by ~180 Haste to get him to his maximum level of debuffing, which would make him swing every 8 seconds.

I don't think I've ever seen a mob with such a wide swing in Haste.  My guess is that they don't use pre-buffed Haste as much for this reason.  They'd need to put him so far up into the cap that Haste debuffs are ineffective.  Just doesn't make much sense to me.

These pre-buffed mobs are a real pita.  That's why I'm saying we need some transparency into those "invisible" buffs.  We need to know if our debuffs are actually doing something, without taking hours to dissect each mob.  This applies to both the upper end (where mobs are pre-Hasted / DPS'ed so much that our debuffs can't bring them down) and the lower end (where we have already put the mob into the negative as far as he'll go).

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Old 04-23-2010, 12:25 PM   #22
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Banditman wrote:

Now you're making me think.

I *believe* negative mod caps at 50%, basically cutting the mobs DPS in half.  What that equates to in SOE world is . . . uncertain.  You'd have to figure out the negative side of the DPS curve.  Haste definitely works this way . . . the best you can do is make the mob swing at half his normal speed.

That one is tricky though, and once gain, very hard to figure out.  Say you have a mob with a BASE delay of, I dunno, let's say 4 seconds.  He comes at you pre-Hasted to hit every 2 seconds, basically he's at ~125 Haste.  You'd actually need to debuff that mob by ~180 Haste to get him to his maximum level of debuffing, which would make him swing every 8 seconds.

I don't think I've ever seen a mob with such a wide swing in Haste.  My guess is that they don't use pre-buffed Haste as much for this reason.  They'd need to put him so far up into the cap that Haste debuffs are ineffective.  Just doesn't make much sense to me.

These pre-buffed mobs are a real pita.  That's why I'm saying we need some transparency into those "invisible" buffs.  We need to know if our debuffs are actually doing something, without taking hours to dissect each mob.  This applies to both the upper end (where mobs are pre-Hasted / DPS'ed so much that our debuffs can't bring them down) and the lower end (where we have already put the mob into the negative as far as he'll go).

Now as a warden(druid) I only have one debuff and its tied in with a nuke thats not an AA added one so it affects me less then the primary priest debuffers that shaman are but I agree. It would be nice to see exactly what a debuff does, especially for my brigand, lol.

It seems that only the most experienced players appreciate what debuffs do anyway unfortuneately. Even in raids I am hearing less and less emphasizes on keeping max debuffs on a mob but that could just be the last couple of raid leaders I have been with too.

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Old 04-26-2010, 05:24 PM   #23
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Banditman wrote:

...Take DPS for instance.  If everyone who had a "DPS" debuff was keeping it on the mobs, you'd be well over -200% DPS.  The problem is, you've got a 100% cap on that debuff.  How much does my ~50% really matter?  I can tell you that the parseable effect (overall) is barely even visible.

You know what, I'm going to try to get some clarification from timetravelling on this, it's really been bugging me.

Is 100% the cap on every stat that is debuffed, or does it vary?

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Old 04-26-2010, 11:38 PM   #24
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[email protected] Bayle wrote:

Banditman wrote:

...Take DPS for instance.  If everyone who had a "DPS" debuff was keeping it on the mobs, you'd be well over -200% DPS.  The problem is, you've got a 100% cap on that debuff.  How much does my ~50% really matter?  I can tell you that the parseable effect (overall) is barely even visible.

You know what, I'm going to try to get some clarification from timetravelling on this, it's really been bugging me.

Is 100% the cap on every stat that is debuffed, or does it vary?

50% tmk

no matter how low you take it, it can never do more than cut the base value in 1/2; and it looks like the logarithmic buff adjustment does not apply for debuffs

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Old 04-27-2010, 09:04 AM   #25
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That coincides with what I remember from ages ago, -50% is the absolute most you can debuff them.

It's a fine number, the problem I have is that you don't necessarily know when you are there as you debuff a mob because you can't see the inate buffs.

We need some way to "know" when our debuffs are superfluous and when they are effective.

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Old 03-13-2011, 12:09 PM   #26
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While in ToFS SC I couldnt help but notice that the lesser shades, when fully debuffed with both hastes and dps debuffs, the mob didnt change at all.  Does this mean that the mob is at 400 haste 400 dps?

I was a bit frustrated because this is also an sk mob that maintains a 7.2% reaver and in my pure melee group, we cant get rid of the reaver component.

Is there a way to see if our debuffs actually work other than having to use ACT after every encounter to determine the value of debuffing by mob type.

This is very frustrating.  Sorry for bringing up an old post but this is the one that seemed to talk about the issue i am have with debuff effectiveness.

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Old 03-14-2011, 10:15 AM   #27
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Frankly, debuffs are nearly useless outside of a raid these days.  Perhaps a few named encounters in the heroic zones.  Generally, if a fight lasts less than 30 seconds, it isn't worth it to cast a debuff.  Between 30 and 60 seconds it depends on the mob.  Longer than 60 seconds and those debuffs can start to add up.

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Old 03-15-2011, 02:13 AM   #28
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This expac adds a increase to our lamenting soul debuff of 20 something as a red adorn, via our quest line in Thurgadin.

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Old 03-15-2011, 09:47 AM   #29
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If you really feel the need to have extra debuffing, just take the 30% increase to all stat and modifier debuffs from the Heroic AA's.  It won't make them any more worthwhile in group content than they are already.

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Old 03-18-2011, 03:09 PM   #30
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Kantarik wrote:

This expac adds a increase to our lamenting soul debuff of 20 something as a red adorn, via our quest line in Thurgadin.

That's nothing new. We already had that effect as a red adorn in SF. The new red adorns with Enhance Lethargy III also include a secondary blue stat(CC,CB or Potency if I recall)

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