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Old 02-22-2010, 02:35 PM   #1
dlove1

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is it working as intended for them to be in line with healer/troub dps this expansion? are there any plans to add some need for them other than buff bots?

if there are plans to fix this, great!. care to share? at least tell me there is something in the works. if there are no plans to fix it, I'll just close my account. I'm not using it right now anyway.

with the enchanter mega nerfs and the freakishly slow solo xp, I've been having more fun playing texas holdem on my phone.

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Old 02-22-2010, 02:46 PM   #2
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I'm still holding my opinion until I see the top level gear and get myself a full set ad3 spells. But so far I parse ~10k at level 90 with previous tier masters and a handful of sf legendary gear.

4 chanters still seem to be needed in raids and we're still just as good at mana regen.

I don't know what you mean by freakishly slow xp. I hit level 90 late friday night, seems fairly quick imo but I did grind out some of that in the hole. /shrug

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Old 02-22-2010, 03:12 PM   #3
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These posts are useless as there is no information. 

Are you saying a raid geared mastered out 90 enchanter will parse the same as a raid geared mastered 90 healer/troub or is it that a poorly geared enchanter is getting out parsed by a well geared healer/troub ?

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Old 02-22-2010, 03:32 PM   #4
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We've been picking up a lot of new people who might end up raiding with us since the expansion... and last night I heard our de facto raid leader say something to the effect of "you know I wouldn't mind having 6 chanters in a raid".

Stuff I've seen quite often in levels chat: "hole grind group looking for chanter",  "conservatory group looking for chanter", "demetrik's bastion looking for chanter"  (do you see a trend?)

So... the plans for the chanter class?  I'd say the plan is to keep them as useful/wanted (if not more) than they were in TSO and prior.

Sorry if it hurts to not make it on the top of the parse (although one of our coercers still can, and from what I've seen there's no noticeable drop in parse from our other enchaters - so explain to me exactly what the nerf is?).  Apparently in order to balance the enchanter class they need to have incredibly desirable buffs, multiple raid spots, and be able to top the parse.  Otherwise, it's just broken and requires a cancelled account.

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Old 02-22-2010, 03:38 PM   #5
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Stubbswick wrote:

so explain to me exactly what the nerf is?

It's just someone talking about things they dont know. The nerf is that we dont get the multiplier that wiz/lock get and I doubt we will have the same DPS boost as other classes with this Xpac. Enchanters are still good at making other people better while putting out respectable DPS. With that said if your enchanters are getting outparsed by a healer, the reason is not the class.

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Old 02-22-2010, 03:41 PM   #6
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I was getting 1-2% for quests with the AA slider set at 0. thats pretty slow. group grinding in the hole is a lot faster. trying to get a pug together on my server can take half the night.

and yes I'm talking equal gear. I've already been out parsed by summoners with junk gear. in full raid gear it looks like dirges will be equal or above chanters, troubs equal to under, with a few healers classes that have the potential to do as much if not more. if the bards decide to BC/UT themselves, they will move ahead of us as we are now undeserving of casting buffs like UT/RoA.

without TC, there is no place for an illy in any raid. 4 coercers would be a lot better for power. does the illy class really deserve a spot with bardlike dps and a buff for 1 person out of 24?

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Old 02-22-2010, 03:50 PM   #7
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it's not just the wiz/lock that have a higher multiplier. it's the other 4 mage classes and a lot of other classes. if your chanter is still topping the parse, where are the sorcs, summoners, assassins, rangers? before this expac, we would have a chanter on top once in a while. most of the time it was wiz/lock/assassin/ranger. chanters were always up there because we usually got UT/RoA/jcap. now most everyone will be running summoners in the mage groups that will get those buffs instead of us. with the fast casting light hitting spells of chanters, buffs are everything to us. we are now the very bottom dps mage class(by a long shot) so we won't get those buffs.

and yea. you are gonna see a TON of people LF chanter because they are all quitting or leveling classes that are still fun to play.

and I was breaking 20K at lvl 80 but on the same fight the wiz would be in the 30s and the summoners would be high 20s. so, take that "learn your class" mess elsewhere.

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Old 02-22-2010, 04:00 PM   #8
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chanters -should- be getting outparsed by quite a few classes.Sorcs/Preds should be on top;  then summoners/rogues; then chanters/bards.

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Old 02-22-2010, 04:04 PM   #9
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Stubbswick wrote:

Stuff I've seen quite often in levels chat: "hole grind group looking for chanter", "conservatory group looking for chanter", "demetrik's bastion looking for chanter" (do you see a trend?)

So... the plans for the chanter class? I'd say the plan is to keep them as useful/wanted (if not more) than they were in TSO and prior.

ROFL you do realize that multiple groups looking for chanter means that people aren't playing chanters? So to answer your question, yes I do see a trend, towards fewer people playing chanters causing groups to have to search for the few that are playing them.

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Old 02-22-2010, 04:10 PM   #10
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geothe, I agree. in equal gear given equal skills, chanters should be out parse by sorcs, pred etc. with the current system, raid geared chanters are going to be behind instace geared sorcs, pred, etc. they have given so much to the other classes and nothing to illies. we will be posting the same numbers we had at level 80 at level 90.

this is where the whole problem came from. some instance geared sorc would get in a group with a raid geared chanter and get smoked on the parse. he wouldn't say, "that chanter has great gear" or "that chanter knows what he is doing", they would mostly just say chanters are OP they need to be nerfed.

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Old 02-22-2010, 04:18 PM   #11
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Chanters were OP now they are where they are supposed to be.  All mages and scouts should outparse chanters except maybe bards.

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Old 02-22-2010, 04:27 PM   #12
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dlove183 wrote:

We will be posting the same numbers we had at level 80 at level 90.

Impossible, but way to overreact.You get new spells with higher damage.You get more crit bonus and potency (unless you were the few able to cap in TSO)Since you get higher spells and higher potency you get make more use out of ability modiferYou get new abilites and AA's.You get the same exact innate crit bonus you had at level 80. You get more damage on overcapping int.

The only nerf to enchanters this expansion is thier mythical power proc which ironically is not as bad a nerf as people make out since the mythical buff now scales with level and crits. Since the base power proc is larger and enchanters are easily able to get 2.0 crit bonus we are talking about the new proc being 2.0-2.5 the power of each lvl 80 individual proc trigger.

In relative terms enchanters do less dps then asassin, wiz and warlocks. They are comparable dps to rangers, swash, brigands, necros, troub, dirge. That seems balanced to me.

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Old 02-22-2010, 04:29 PM   #13
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lethe, thats what I wanna hear from a dev. (not that they ever answer anything). if a scrub wizard in quested gear with ad3 spells should be able to easily outparse a mastered illy in full read gear, then I have no interest in playing the illy class anymore. I have a troub that is completely not fun to play and very unrewarding. at this point the illy is playing a lot like the troub. they just make us wear cloth armor.

I also have a SK and a wizard. they are fun to play at least, but it's hard to get a raid spot with either. with a buffbot chanter class, there is no need for me to keep playing. someone can box an illy like most people box their troubs.

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Old 02-22-2010, 04:38 PM   #14
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dlove183 wrote:

lethe, thats what I wanna hear from a dev. (not that they ever answer anything). if a scrub wizard in quested gear with ad3 spells should be able to easily outparse a mastered illy in full read gear, then I have no interest in playing the illy class anymore. I have a troub that is completely not fun to play and very unrewarding. at this point the illy is playing a lot like the troub. they just make us wear cloth armor.

I also have a SK and a wizard. they are fun to play at least, but it's hard to get a raid spot with either. with a buffbot chanter class, there is no need for me to keep playing. someone can box an illy like most people box their troubs.

I never said that a scrub wizard should outparse an excellent Illy.  All other mages should outparse enchanters with similar skill/gear.  All scouts (except bards) should outparse enchanters with similar skill/gear.  Bards should do roughly the same DPS as chanters.  Chanters are the utility mage and as such shouldn't expect to do as good DPS as a wizards anymore than a bard should expect to do assassin DPS.

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Old 02-22-2010, 04:40 PM   #15
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new spells with higher damage. I was fully mastered in TSO. the new ad3 are not upgrades. new masters will be maybe 6% more.

more crit bonus will only come with new gear that every class gets. I had a lot of crit bonus and +base items already.

our spells do not hit very hard. we don't get a lot out of having a ton of mod. (not like sorcs)

our new AA benifit raid or group friend. there is almost nothing that helps us.

the nerf to enchanters was the huge upgrade that most of the other 22 classes got.

so, enchanters could do 20k with UT/RoA/Jcap at level. with summoners in the raid, they will get UT and most of the RoA. depending on how many mages are in the raid and how much the troub likes us, we may still get a jcap. with no buffs, new masters, and all new raid gear we should be right back at 20k or so. sure the sorcs will be doing 50 and the summoners will be in the 30s. who cares. if a class is wanted on raids it must be fun to play right?

NICE UPGRADE!

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Old 02-22-2010, 04:41 PM   #16
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sorry for the double post

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Old 02-22-2010, 04:45 PM   #17
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dlove183 wrote:

lethe, thats what I wanna hear from a dev. (not that they ever answer anything). if a scrub wizard in quested gear with ad3 spells should be able to easily outparse a mastered illy in full read gear, then I have no interest in playing the illy class anymore. I have a troub that is completely not fun to play and very unrewarding. at this point the illy is playing a lot like the troub. they just make us wear cloth armor.

I also have a SK and a wizard. they are fun to play at least, but it's hard to get a raid spot with either. with a buffbot chanter class, there is no need for me to keep playing. someone can box an illy like most people box their troubs.

Bards and Enchanters are utility classes, it's bad enough coercers can parse the way they do while adding a load of beneficial buffs and power regen to the whole group. personally i think utility classes shouldnt parse remotely as high as they were so far.

How exactly did you come up with the idea of a wiz in quested gear and ad3 versus an illu in raid gear and masters ? are you talking about last expansion ? Because there is no Illu fully T9 raid geared and fully mastered... And in last expansion that raid geared illu will outparse the quest gear wiz any time. Maybe you're psychic and can tell the future, otherwise you could maybe elaborate your complaint ?

It was already officialy admitted that resists are not working as intended, making especially wizards and warlocks nuke like crazy atm. Perhaps that's why your Wiz alt is doing better then your illu ?

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Old 02-22-2010, 04:56 PM   #18
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I suppose if the only fun you have playing the game is cheering the parse, it isn't fun to play a "utility" class and you should roll an Assassin instead. Personally I enjoy getting together with 23 interesting people to try and solve the puzzles and defeat the boss as a group. To me that is the point. Unless I'm training I don't even look at the parse.

Chanters are about power like healers are about health. IMHO what would make them more fun to play would be more things that distinguish them from other classes, not the drumbeat to perform exactly the same. DPS parse is just a dumb one-dimensional stat that tells you next to nothing about a chanter's skill.

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Old 02-22-2010, 04:58 PM   #19
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How exactly did you come up with the idea of a wiz in quested gear and ad3 versus an illu in raid gear and masters ?

I was asking if that was the intention. maybe I could have worded it better.

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Old 02-22-2010, 05:02 PM   #20
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dlove183 wrote:

we should be right back at 20k or so. sure the sorcs will be doing 50 and the summoners will be in the 30s. who cares. if a class is wanted on raids it must be fun to play right?

Stop looking at a parse and you might have more fun. Otherwise just roll a Wiz. It is like you are playing basketball and saying "I like football but hate basketball, we should make basketball more like football".

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Old 02-22-2010, 05:12 PM   #21
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"Chanters are about power like healers are about health. IMHO what would make them more fun to play would be more things that distinguish them from other classes, not the drumbeat to perform exactly the same. DPS parse is just a dumb one-dimensional stat that tells you next to nothing about a chanter's skill."

this doesn't exist. the healer belt from zarrakon is matching the illy power regen. bards power song is more power per tick than the illy regen spell. there is no real demand for CC.

my raid looks at the parse every fight. I hear a lot of nice parse mr. wizard, nice parse mr. assassin. I've never heard nice TC mr. illy or great use of those 10 temp buffs mr. illy. it's nice to be able to put up good numbers since all our other abilities are pretty much un noticed.

people progress in this game to be better at whatever. some like crafting. (I call it tardskilling) some like questing. some like raiding. some want to be the best of their class. say anything you want, it's all about personal satisfaction and ego. the reason there are so few max level troubs in this game is because they are completely unrewarding to play. there is no glory other than people want you for your buffs so they can have some glory. the illy class is heading down the same road. have you ever heard anyone say, "nice buffs on that last pull"?

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Old 02-22-2010, 05:15 PM   #22
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Stop looking at a parse and you might have more fun. Otherwise just roll a Wiz. It is like you are playing basketball and saying "I like football but hate basketball, we should make basketball more like football".

it feels more like I was playing football and making big plays but the league said, we are gonna take your position off the field and make you waterboys. every team needs a water boy. waterboys are in demand. don't you wanna be a team player? did you see that big play? "get me some water, boy"

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Old 02-22-2010, 05:23 PM   #23
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Lethe5683 wrote:

I never said that a scrub wizard should outparse an excellent Illy. All other mages should outparse enchanters with similar skill/gear. All scouts (except bards) should outparse enchanters with similar skill/gear. Bards should do roughly the same DPS as chanters. Chanters are the utility mage and as such shouldn't expect to do as good DPS as a wizards anymore than a bard should expect to do assassin DPS.

Nicely put, Lethe. QFE.

Unfortunately, many who are playing enchanters right now are only going to be happy topping the parse. They don't see buffing others in a raid as being enjoyable.

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Old 02-22-2010, 05:23 PM   #24
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dlove183 wrote:

"Chanters are about power like healers are about health. IMHO what would make them more fun to play would be more things that distinguish them from other classes, not the drumbeat to perform exactly the same. DPS parse is just a dumb one-dimensional stat that tells you next to nothing about a chanter's skill."

this doesn't exist. the healer belt from zarrakon is matching the illy power regen. bards power song is more power per tick than the illy regen spell. there is no real demand for CC.

my raid looks at the parse every fight. I hear a lot of nice parse mr. wizard, nice parse mr. assassin. I've never heard nice TC mr. illy or great use of those 10 temp buffs mr. illy. it's nice to be able to put up good numbers since all our other abilities are pretty much un noticed.

people progress in this game to be better at whatever. some like crafting. (I call it tardskilling) some like questing. some like raiding. some want to be the best of their class. say anything you want, it's all about personal satisfaction and ego. the reason there are so few max level troubs in this game is because they are completely unrewarding to play. there is no glory other than people want you for your buffs so they can have some glory. the illy class is heading down the same road. have you ever heard anyone say, "nice buffs on that last pull"?

Uhh... mages in my guild routinely fight over TC.  People in my guild know their stuff about chanter buffs, bard buffs, and yeah, they do discuss them depending on the pull - what would be better on which character.  I've heard mages say dozens of times "yeah, that's a nice parse, and that's without an Illy in my group" (i.e. it's amazing i've done so well without the awesome buffs an illy provides me)

Yeah, more likely than not if a wizzy hits a huge parse, he's not going to go "hey, that's thanks to mr. illy over there".  But so what?  Do you want to be congratulated for doing your job every pull?  I don't have anyone say "hey, thanks for healing me so I could do DPS" when i'm on my healer.  You don't hear anyone say "thanks for rescuing that mob mr. off-tank! it helped me DPS higher"

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Old 02-22-2010, 05:41 PM   #25
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Stubbswick wrote:

Uhh... mages in my guild routinely fight over TC. 

I know mages who all but refuses to play without either an illy or troub with them (sometimes both). I am not only talking about raiding but just easy heroic zones. They know they dont pull high parses without support and they dont want to look bad SMILEY

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Old 02-22-2010, 06:11 PM   #26
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Sounds like the OP is just upset he can't top the parse anymore.

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Old 02-22-2010, 06:25 PM   #27
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dlove183 wrote:

this doesn't exist. the healer belt from zarrakon is matching the illy power regen. bards power song is more power per tick than the illy regen spell. there is no real demand for CC.

If you had a complaint it has gone completely baseless after all these statements.The zarrakon belt was nerfed. Even before the nerf a zarrokon belt could NOT keep a group full of power. An illusionist CAN. And if you are trying to even remotely suggest a bard is gives more power to thier group then an enchanter you obviously need to learn to open up a hotbar and hit those spells.

Honestly as people said before you need to learn to play your wizard, because if your issue with the class is that it is not fun if you can't parse comparable to a wizard and you personally are not wanted in raid guilds on your wizard then the issue is not the class.

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Old 02-22-2010, 06:29 PM   #28
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yea. cause in my previous statement, I made the clear claim that I always topped the dps parse. I did say that right? do you read?

ok. so the consensus is. illies should be boring to play and do very low if any dps. they should top some of the healers. they should never top any t1 or t2 dps. they should stand back and mezz all those epics. /sarcasm off

I'm upset because ATM there is no role for the illusionist in this game. we are mediocre "power healers" that could mezz if almost every mob in the game wasn't immune to mezz. the only real thing we do is time compression on 1 player in a 24 player raid. everything else can be done better by another class. we got practically nothing AA wise that helps us. everything we got is for group/raid friend/cant cast on self. why screw us on the crit modifier? weren't the crappy AAs and myth nerf enough? I had 3 mythed/raid geared toons in TSO and a troub in the 70s (the troub I just gave up on because they are just so broken.)

chanters are either changing mains or quitting the game in droves. make any claim you want. nerf us more cause we might still beat some poor nub sorc on a dps parse. good luck getting quality players to fill chanter slots in your raids. at least give us a job to do other than stand there and click temp buffs so the real mages can parse higher.

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Old 02-22-2010, 06:33 PM   #29
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gungo.

an illies power regen is 66. a bard is 75 and I believe 96 with the drum. take the illy myth away and they make very little power. all we have is manaflow that is nothing compared to a coercers flow. they get AA to enhance theirs. manashroud, manatap, and savante only do so much. I hate to cloud up an arguement with facts.

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Old 02-22-2010, 06:33 PM   #30
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dlove183 wrote:

we should be right back at 20k or so. sure the sorcs will be doing 50 and the summoners will be in the 30s. who cares. if a class is wanted on raids it must be fun to play right?

Stop looking at a parse and you might have more fun. Otherwise just roll a Wiz. It is like you are playing basketball and saying "I like football but hate basketball, we should make basketball more like football".

Want to know what is fun? It's having a fun and active part of the grp or raid you are in. Rebuffing people that die is not fun. Casting 9 buffs when you die is not fun. Doing less dps then a inq as a mage is not fun.

I don't expect illu to be top parse but I do want any dps that I work [Removed for Content] hard to pull off to actually mean something.

Our SF raids look something like this, all TSO gear and old masters:

Sorc/pred  35-40k

Summoner/rouge 25-30k

SK/Pally/Bruiser 20k

Bards 15k

Inq 11k

Illu 10k

Yeah 10k was nice dps maybe in TSO. But not now when max dps is 3x as much.

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